Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Tot Boy Found Dead in "Fabulous Vegas" Suitcase: WHO IS HE?

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Tot Boy Found Dead in "Fabulous Vegas" Suitcase: WHO IS HE? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Imagine walking through a beautiful
0:16
Speaker 1: cops of dense woods, enjoying your morning, when suddenly you
0:22
Speaker 1: see a welcome to the fabulous Las Vegas suitcase, and
0:28
Speaker 1: of course, curiosity gets the better of you. You open
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Speaker 1: it up and you don't find a lot of casino chips,
0:36
Speaker 1: you don't find a lot of money. Inside, you find
0:40
Speaker 1: a dead boy. That is exactly what happened. The body
0:46
Speaker 1: of a five year old little boy found and a
0:50
Speaker 1: Welcome to Vegas suitcase. But now who is he and
0:55
Speaker 1: how did he get there? I'm Nancy Grace. This is
0:59
Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at
1:01
Speaker 1: Fox Nation in series XM one eleven. First of all,
1:04
Speaker 1: take a listen to our friends at wh S shocking
1:08
Speaker 1: story that's been developing since the weekend. New evidence released
1:11
Speaker 1: by Indiana State Police moments ago in the discovery of
1:15
Speaker 1: a little boy's body in the woods in southern Indiana,
1:17
Speaker 1: the chilling reality that he may have been dumped there
1:20
Speaker 1: from somewhere else. This photo of a suitcase. Indiana State
1:23
Speaker 1: Police tell us the body of the little boy was
1:26
Speaker 1: found inside this suitcase, and for the first time, they
1:29
Speaker 1: have given a specific location. The seven thousand block of
1:32
Speaker 1: East Holder Road in Washington County, Indiana. The wooded area
1:35
Speaker 1: there that southeast of Salem. Now the discovery was made
1:38
Speaker 1: by a person hunting for mushrooms over the weekend. Also
1:41
Speaker 1: new today, an autopsy was performed. Police have not released
1:45
Speaker 1: any results, nor they have released no possible cause of death,
1:48
Speaker 1: and they still do not know his identity. We do
1:51
Speaker 1: know the police say the boy is only five to
1:53
Speaker 1: eight years old. They add that he could have been
1:55
Speaker 1: from anywhere, not just southern Indiana. Investigators say they have
1:58
Speaker 1: been searching the wooded area where the boy was found,
2:00
Speaker 1: but the information has not led them to any answers. Again,
2:04
Speaker 1: a five year old little boy stuffed into a suitcase,
2:09
Speaker 1: and the only clue we have so far is a
2:13
Speaker 1: sticker of sorts on the suitcase. It says welcome to
2:17
Speaker 1: the fabulous Las Vegas with the iconic photo there where
2:22
Speaker 1: so many people take a picture in front of it
2:24
Speaker 1: the background of Vegas. Why who is this little boy?
2:30
Speaker 1: How did he die? How can we trace his whereabouts?
2:33
Speaker 1: Because that's the only way we're going to find out
2:36
Speaker 1: who put him in that suitcase? Again, I Meanancy Grace,
2:40
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Here on Fox Nation
2:42
Speaker 1: in series six one eleven. I've got an all star
2:45
Speaker 1: panel to make sense of what we know right now.
2:47
Speaker 1: But very first I want to go to Max Lewis,
2:49
Speaker 1: investigative reporter with Fox fifty nine joining us out of Indianapolis. Max,
2:55
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us. First of all,
2:57
Speaker 1: what can you tell me about the area where the
2:59
Speaker 1: suitcase was found? So, yeah, this is in Washington County, Indiana.
3:02
Speaker 1: It's about we're a little over halfway from Indianapolis down
3:06
Speaker 1: to about the Louisville area, and it's extremely rural, you know,
3:11
Speaker 1: it's it really is shocking that this kind of thing
3:14
Speaker 1: would happen here. These people don't really see much going
3:16
Speaker 1: on down there, and for them to find a boy
3:18
Speaker 1: in a suitcases pretty shocking. But as you said, the
3:23
Speaker 1: person that found this was doing mushroom hunting, So you
3:25
Speaker 1: think you can't just do that in some near you know,
3:28
Speaker 1: some city, some urban areas. So he was in a
3:31
Speaker 1: pretty rural area in some country roads, not too far
3:35
Speaker 1: off the interstate Act. Okay, Max Lewis joined me from
3:37
Speaker 1: Fox fifty nine. Got so many questions for you, Max,
3:41
Speaker 1: you said, it's halfway between Louisville and what it's halfway
3:44
Speaker 1: between Louisville and Indianapolis on the I sixty five corridor.
3:48
Speaker 1: There how far aways is from I sixty five. It's
3:50
Speaker 1: only a couple of miles from what I've been told
3:53
Speaker 1: from police off of the interstate. There a couple of
3:57
Speaker 1: miles off the interstate with me, as I said, an
4:01
Speaker 1: all star pound. But before we get going with them,
4:03
Speaker 1: having spoken to Max Lewis with Fox fifty nine, I
4:06
Speaker 1: want you to take a listen to our friends at
4:08
Speaker 1: wh S eleven. The man who found this boy, Jeff Meredith,
4:14
Speaker 1: is in agony knowing he was one of the last
4:17
Speaker 1: people to see this child's face. When I first saw
4:20
Speaker 1: that little feller, immediately I felt that he was telling me,
4:27
Speaker 1: help me, I need help. The Washington County Sheriff's Office
4:33
Speaker 1: is holding a memorial service for the little boy. The
4:36
Speaker 1: community is invited to honor him next Wednesday, June one,
4:40
Speaker 1: at eleven in the morning. It will be held at
4:43
Speaker 1: Weather's Funeral Home in Salem. And remember, if you know
4:47
Speaker 1: anything about an unreported missing boy about five years old,
4:51
Speaker 1: short hair and about forty pounds, or if you saw
4:54
Speaker 1: this suitcase in southern Indiana, contact ESP at its designated
4:59
Speaker 1: tip line. This case, that number is eight eight eight
5:02
Speaker 1: four three seven six four three two repet eight eight
5:06
Speaker 1: four three seven six four three two Straight out to
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Speaker 1: doctor Michelle Duprie, former forensic pathologist, medical examiner and detective.
5:16
Speaker 1: Author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide and Investigating Child Abuse
5:22
Speaker 1: Field Guide, which we need your expertise and both of
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Speaker 1: these areas, Doctor Michelle Dupree, First of all, I want
5:28
Speaker 1: to talk to you about the location, location, location, location.
5:34
Speaker 1: It's not just about real estate. It gives me a
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Speaker 1: plethora of clues. We're gonna need to figure this thing out.
5:40
Speaker 1: First of all, you've got a very rural, densely wooded
5:45
Speaker 1: area halfway between Indiana and Louisville. It's just a few
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Speaker 1: miles off the I sixty five corridor. Now what does
5:56
Speaker 1: that tell me? And what can I learn from the
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Speaker 1: area from the suitcase, Doctor Duprie, Can I talk to
6:03
Speaker 1: you about mushroom hunting, because when someone finds a body,
6:09
Speaker 1: they're the first person you'll look at. When somebody calls
6:13
Speaker 1: nine one one, they're the first person you look at.
6:16
Speaker 1: In no way has the mushroom hunter come under suspicion,
6:21
Speaker 1: but that is a starting place so let's talk about
6:25
Speaker 1: mushroom hunting in itself, Doctor Michelle Duprie. That was let
6:31
Speaker 1: me just say, you don't hear that every day? Right,
6:34
Speaker 1: that's right answer, you don't. Well, doctor Michelle Dupree. I
6:38
Speaker 1: was expecting a little more from you than the yes
6:41
Speaker 1: no you just gave me. Let me go to Max
6:44
Speaker 1: Lewis joining me, Fox fifty nine. Apparently MOREL season is
6:50
Speaker 1: upon us. MOREL mushrooms love Indiana. Tell me about it. Yeah,
6:56
Speaker 1: they sure do. They start when the beginning of spring,
7:00
Speaker 1: and this suitcase was found in early April, so right
7:03
Speaker 1: about the time. A lot of people do it. It's
7:05
Speaker 1: a very common activity. They go out, they go to
7:08
Speaker 1: deeply wooded areas they search for these morale mushrooms and
7:11
Speaker 1: they're pretty actually hard to find and kind of rare.
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Speaker 1: So if you come upon them, you're doing a pretty
7:16
Speaker 1: good job. But it's a common activity that a lot
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Speaker 1: of people do, so wouldn't really raise any suspicion that
7:22
Speaker 1: this guy was going out and doing that at this time.
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Speaker 1: Old timers say, quote, when the oat leaves are the
7:27
Speaker 1: size of a mouse's ear, that's the time to look
7:31
Speaker 1: for morals. Okay, I'm going to take that with a
7:35
Speaker 1: box of salt. Max Lewis, again, this guy that finds
7:38
Speaker 1: the body is not under suspicion. What I'm saying is
7:42
Speaker 1: that's where you start your investigation if you've got nothing else.
7:47
Speaker 1: And joining me Karen L. Smith, forensic expert joining us
7:50
Speaker 1: out of La Lecturer University, Florida, host a hit series,
7:55
Speaker 1: Shattered Soul's podcast, Karen, we got enough. So that's why
8:01
Speaker 1: I'm talking about this guy. This guy is not under suspicion.
8:05
Speaker 1: He's not even a person of interest. He's not a suspect.
8:08
Speaker 1: I'm saying very simply that when you've got nothing, that's
8:12
Speaker 1: where you start your investigation. And I guess we could
8:14
Speaker 1: also start with the suitcase and what the little boy
8:18
Speaker 1: is wearing, but let's finish it up about the mushroom hunter. Yeah,
8:22
Speaker 1: he's not under suspicion, and nor should he be, Nancy,
8:24
Speaker 1: I think, wait a minute, whoa wait, wait wait, I
8:26
Speaker 1: don't think he should be. No, that's where I just start.
8:30
Speaker 1: Somebody standing there with a dead body. You darn right,
8:33
Speaker 1: the cops better investigate that guy. Oh absolutely, I'm talking
8:36
Speaker 1: about questioning him. I don't think that he should be
8:38
Speaker 1: under suspicion for doing anything wrong. I think he came
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Speaker 1: upon a suitcase. I think his voice tells the story.
8:44
Speaker 1: He was very distraught. Oh hey, Karen, just remember the
8:49
Speaker 1: poor soul. I think his name was Ray Kronk that
8:56
Speaker 1: found Tott Mom's daughter killing Anthony. That guy was so
9:03
Speaker 1: mistreated online by so many people. He started calling police
9:11
Speaker 1: weeks before they finally came out and followed up on
9:15
Speaker 1: his call. He said he saw something weird and strange
9:19
Speaker 1: off the road, and I've been to the spot many times.
9:22
Speaker 1: It is off the road, but if you look carefully,
9:25
Speaker 1: you can see back into again a densely wooded area.
9:28
Speaker 1: Finally it had rained, the rain stopped. He called them again.
9:34
Speaker 1: They finally came out, and it was the remains of
9:37
Speaker 1: this little beautiful girl, Kelly Anthony, who many people to
9:42
Speaker 1: this day believe was murdered by her mother. Taught mom
9:45
Speaker 1: Casey Anthony. And he was demonized. He was demonized when
9:50
Speaker 1: he's the one that did a good deed and I
9:53
Speaker 1: believe that's what happened here. But since we've got nothing,
9:56
Speaker 1: that's the launching spot for cops to talk to. This
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Speaker 1: guy that finds the ba right and there's something else
10:01
Speaker 1: I'd like to point out, with regard to the suitcase
10:03
Speaker 1: and where it was found, you can do a little
10:06
Speaker 1: bit of criminal profiling from the person who actually did
10:09
Speaker 1: leave it there. There was a handle that you can
10:12
Speaker 1: retract or you can put it down. Was that handle
10:15
Speaker 1: retracted or left extended? Was it just tossed away or
10:19
Speaker 1: was that suit case placed down flat and face up?
10:22
Speaker 1: Was it hidden or left out to be found? This
10:25
Speaker 1: tells me about the person and whether or not they
10:27
Speaker 1: cared enough for this little boy to place it down,
10:32
Speaker 1: which means they may have spent maybe a moment there,
10:35
Speaker 1: Maybe they left something of themselves behind before they walked away,
10:40
Speaker 1: So it may be worth another search of that area.
10:42
Speaker 1: Looking at the suitcase where it was found, how it
10:44
Speaker 1: was found, can tell you a little bit about the
10:47
Speaker 1: person who did leave it there. You know. Thinking about
10:49
Speaker 1: the suitcase as well, I'd like to find out was
10:52
Speaker 1: it mean was it bought specifically for this purpose? If
10:57
Speaker 1: it was, that tells me the little boy been in Vegas,
11:01
Speaker 1: or at least in the area of Vegas, Because I mean,
11:05
Speaker 1: you can go to the airport, you can go to
11:07
Speaker 1: a lot of places surrounding Vegas, and you can find
11:11
Speaker 1: that type of Las Vegas, you know, paraphernalia, touristy stuff
11:16
Speaker 1: all over the state. So I'm wondering about that Crime
11:32
Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace joining me right now, in addition
11:37
Speaker 1: to Max Lewis Fox fifty nine, doctor Michelle Duprie, medical
11:41
Speaker 1: examiner Karen Smith, forensics expert Katherine marsh Is with us
11:46
Speaker 1: from the Special Victims Liaison joining us from Charles County,
11:50
Speaker 1: co founder of Right Response Consulting, and she's the star
11:54
Speaker 1: of the No Gray Zone podcast. Catherine jump in, Yeah,
11:58
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of information from the suitcase
12:01
Speaker 1: and the location, but for me, it's most important the
12:04
Speaker 1: fact that there's been no discussion about this child. Nobody's
12:09
Speaker 1: talking about there's been a missing child. I want to know,
12:13
Speaker 1: how do we have a child that's been was discovered
12:16
Speaker 1: over a month ago. Nobody's reported a missing We don't
12:20
Speaker 1: have any records from a school reporting a young child
12:23
Speaker 1: missing or a daycare. Was this child ever in the
12:27
Speaker 1: public domain? Those are all factors that I would want
12:31
Speaker 1: to know, because when we're talking about where the suitcase
12:34
Speaker 1: was located, you know, you're absolutely correct, You're absolutely correct.
12:39
Speaker 1: Nothing has indicated a child matching this description. Is missing,
12:44
Speaker 1: and I want to remind everybody about a case. Call
12:49
Speaker 1: little Miss Nobody, take us an our cut one. This
12:54
Speaker 1: is justin lump Fox ten, Phoenix, a little girl between
12:59
Speaker 1: three and five years old found partially buried in the
13:03
Speaker 1: desert back in nineteen sixty. The case still haunts the
13:07
Speaker 1: Yavapine County Sheriff's office. Who is this little girl in
13:10
Speaker 1: the sketch dubbed little Miss Nobody. Her partially buried remains
13:14
Speaker 1: found at Sandwash Creek in Congress, Arizona, on July thirty first,
13:18
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty. Investigators believe her remains had been burned one
13:23
Speaker 1: to two weeks before she was discovered. The cause of
13:26
Speaker 1: death undetermined yet suspicious, and it was ruled a homicide
13:30
Speaker 1: in that case, goes On, is certainly not the first
13:35
Speaker 1: time we have encountered an unidentified child dead. What do
13:40
Speaker 1: we know about this case? We're talking about the suitcase now.
13:44
Speaker 1: Karen Smith, joining us from Shattered Soul's podcast, was describing
13:49
Speaker 1: some emotional attachment the killer or the person that disposed
13:55
Speaker 1: of the body. That person may have had to the child.
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Speaker 1: You know what, sorry, Karen, don't care. I only care
14:04
Speaker 1: to the extent it could tell me who left this
14:06
Speaker 1: child there? So I care about I don't care about
14:08
Speaker 1: their emotions because they're going to write and help. Number one.
14:12
Speaker 1: I'm interested in the forensic aspect. Are there any fingerprints
14:18
Speaker 1: or is there any fiber If this was a used suitcase,
14:22
Speaker 1: maybe there's fiber or DNA of some sort in there
14:25
Speaker 1: that can help me track back to the adult that
14:28
Speaker 1: left this. We believe five year old little boy folded
14:32
Speaker 1: up in a suitcase like he was an old pair
14:34
Speaker 1: of pajamas. Take a listen now to our cut number two.
14:39
Speaker 1: This is Dakota Sherik at w d RB right now
14:43
Speaker 1: in d Nast. Please isn't giving too many details on
14:46
Speaker 1: this case, but investigators do believe that somebody out there
14:49
Speaker 1: knows something that can help them figure out who this
14:52
Speaker 1: child was. We are looking for the public's help and
14:55
Speaker 1: finding out the name of this child, this little boy
14:57
Speaker 1: who deserves answers. He deserves our help. Urgent Carrie Holes
15:01
Speaker 1: said Saturday night, a mushroom hunter in the woods in
15:03
Speaker 1: rural Washington County discovered the body of a young boy.
15:07
Speaker 1: He noticed something and went to investigate, and that's what
15:09
Speaker 1: he found so very disturbing, very shocking, very traumatic event,
15:13
Speaker 1: very sad event, not just for the person who located it,
15:16
Speaker 1: but the officers and are involved also. Holes said the
15:19
Speaker 1: boy is likely between five and eight years old. He's
15:22
Speaker 1: about four feet tall, with a slim build and short haircut.
15:26
Speaker 1: Investigators believe the boy died within the last week. State
15:30
Speaker 1: police say they're not releasing details about where the boy
15:33
Speaker 1: was found or what he was wearing to protect their investigation.
15:37
Speaker 1: I don't know how much it's protecting the investigation, but okay,
15:40
Speaker 1: Doctor Alan Blockey joining US clinical forensic psychologist, joining us
15:44
Speaker 1: out of Birmingham, specializing in criminal and child cases. He
15:50
Speaker 1: is Professor, University Alabama, Birmingham. Doctor Blockee, thank you for
15:53
Speaker 1: being with us now. Karen L. Smith was describing a
15:58
Speaker 1: potential emotional attachment to the boy by the person who
16:02
Speaker 1: left the body there. The only reason I'm remotely interested
16:07
Speaker 1: in emotional attachments to this child that was so horribly
16:10
Speaker 1: abandoned is can it be a clue to tell me
16:13
Speaker 1: who did this? But I'm wondering, Doctor Blockey, who would
16:17
Speaker 1: leave their child like that? Again? Let me harken back
16:23
Speaker 1: to top mom Casey Anthony, and one of her many
16:26
Speaker 1: and varied defenses was that little Kelly died in a
16:31
Speaker 1: swimming pool unattended, and that her grandfather, George Anthony, fished
16:37
Speaker 1: her out. And then, as opposed to calling nine one one,
16:41
Speaker 1: this former cop just decided that he would put in
16:43
Speaker 1: a trash bag and thrower in the woods. Okay, that
16:47
Speaker 1: didn't happen. George Anthony did not do that. If this
16:51
Speaker 1: child had died, naturally, wouldn't the guardian the parent call
16:57
Speaker 1: nine one one. Why would you put your child in
17:01
Speaker 1: a suitcase and leave it in the woods unless there
17:05
Speaker 1: was a nefarious aspect to the death. Well, I mean,
17:09
Speaker 1: you're right, it certainly sounds like it's a nefarious kind
17:11
Speaker 1: of thing. Of course, what this child Donald died from
17:15
Speaker 1: is going to be critical. I guess you could say
17:19
Speaker 1: the parents panicked. I mean, maybe that's the best spend
17:22
Speaker 1: you can put on. At best, they panicked, But it
17:25
Speaker 1: certainly makes no sense. It's certainly throwing out the trash.
17:29
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, when you said that, that just hurt me.
17:32
Speaker 1: And you're right to them, it was like throwing out
17:37
Speaker 1: the trash. I'm going to follow up on what doctor
17:39
Speaker 1: Alan Black he just told us. But speaking CD, take
17:43
Speaker 1: a listen to Demi Johnson WISHTV. State police say the
17:50
Speaker 1: young child was around five years old based on a
17:53
Speaker 1: dental examination. Hole says, Unfortunately, the boy's autopsy did not
17:58
Speaker 1: give police the clarity they were hoping for, but it
18:01
Speaker 1: does tell them the boy had been in someone's recent care.
18:04
Speaker 1: The autopsy did confirmed that we're talking about a death
18:07
Speaker 1: probably within the past week. Now. We're not talking about
18:11
Speaker 1: skeletal remains or anything like that. You know, the fact
18:13
Speaker 1: that the autopsy doesn't reveal any cause of death, and
18:17
Speaker 1: the fact that it's only you know, days old since
18:21
Speaker 1: that horrific event occurred says a lot. You know, as
18:25
Speaker 1: far as what we found. Obviously somebody cared for him.
18:27
Speaker 1: That whoever that is isn't coming forward for whatever reason.
18:30
Speaker 1: There's more than one reason that could be. State police
18:33
Speaker 1: tell me they've receiemed about five hundred calls on the case,
18:36
Speaker 1: but they want to remind people to not call them
18:39
Speaker 1: about children already listed as missing around the country. They're
18:44
Speaker 1: already investigating those cases. To doctor Michelle dupre joining us,
18:49
Speaker 1: we typically hear about an identification made through DNA or
18:53
Speaker 1: fingerprints on children. You don't have fingerprints. I don't know
18:57
Speaker 1: why they still do footprints at the hospital as opposed
19:01
Speaker 1: to fingerprints, but they do so there's no way to
19:05
Speaker 1: track the child through fingerprints. Here we hear a dental exam. Now,
19:13
Speaker 1: while it's not identifying who the child is, what's the
19:17
Speaker 1: point of the dental exam? Well, Nancy, we'll do a
19:19
Speaker 1: dental exam so that if and when a suspective childless,
19:24
Speaker 1: someone might suspay that this child is, then we can
19:27
Speaker 1: compare general records with that person. But without a comparison,
19:30
Speaker 1: the denteral exam is really useless. We're hoping to gain
19:33
Speaker 1: a comparison with some child found or reporting missing in
19:36
Speaker 1: the future. Doctor du print, Why don't hospitals do fingerprints
19:40
Speaker 1: as opposed to a footprint? Nancy, I do not know.
19:42
Speaker 1: I think that's an excellent thing to do, as well
19:44
Speaker 1: as do DNA. I think they should do DNA and fingerprints. Now,
19:47
Speaker 1: fingerprints never changed during our home lifetime, and no two
19:50
Speaker 1: fingerprints are the same exactly. So if you have an
19:54
Speaker 1: adult print, if you find an adult, can the adult
19:58
Speaker 1: fingerprint be matched with child fingerprints? Oftentimes, of course it's
20:02
Speaker 1: going to be larger, But there are certain distinguishing characteristics
20:06
Speaker 1: we call them points that very well would be in
20:09
Speaker 1: the child finger print as well as in the adult fingerprints.
20:12
Speaker 1: You know, doctor Duprie, let me ask you this as well.
20:15
Speaker 1: We just heard from police sources that the child had
20:19
Speaker 1: only been in the suitcase for a few days. How
20:22
Speaker 1: can you tell that, Nancy. We can tell that by
20:25
Speaker 1: the state of the body, the amount of decomposition or not,
20:30
Speaker 1: the way that that body decomposes in that type of atmosphere,
20:34
Speaker 1: because it was left outside, because it was in a suitcase,
20:37
Speaker 1: because it is warm weather, decomposition is going to happen faster.
20:42
Speaker 1: So we take all of those things into account when
20:44
Speaker 1: we determine the time of death. Joining me, Max Lewis,
20:47
Speaker 1: reporter of Fox fifty nine out of Indianapolis. Max, again,
20:50
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. You heard doctor Michelle
20:53
Speaker 1: Duprie respond to my question by mentioning the weather. What
21:00
Speaker 1: is the weather in that area at this time of
21:03
Speaker 1: the year. It still would have probably been cool. I
21:06
Speaker 1: would say the average high in a day would be
21:08
Speaker 1: fifty degrees, maybe into the low sixties, and overnight it
21:12
Speaker 1: could you get down into the high thirties and possibly
21:16
Speaker 1: into even the freezing temperatures. We might have been a
21:18
Speaker 1: little bit out of freezing range at that point. But
21:20
Speaker 1: I think that could you know, affect things. I'll let
21:23
Speaker 1: the experts speak to that as far as temperature wise,
21:26
Speaker 1: right right, Doctor Michelle Dupray. Does that support or distract
21:29
Speaker 1: from your theory? It actually supports it because the body
21:33
Speaker 1: would have been in a closed container, which means it's
21:35
Speaker 1: probably going to be protected somewhat from the environment, and
21:38
Speaker 1: the fact that it doesn't get down too terribly low
21:41
Speaker 1: is still going to make that sort of a warm
21:43
Speaker 1: weather environment. So yes, it's it's still accurate. You know.
21:47
Speaker 1: Mix lewis joining me from Fox fifty nine Indian Apples.
21:50
Speaker 1: So I'm very surprised that the police are not releasing
21:54
Speaker 1: the outfit the little boy was wearing. And I'll tell
21:59
Speaker 1: you why, because when the twins were this age, I
22:03
Speaker 1: had special T shirts for them, a little out matching
22:09
Speaker 1: out fitz Lucy at that time still always wore a
22:13
Speaker 1: bow before she broke my heart and quit wearing those
22:17
Speaker 1: I always had. John David was obsessed with dinosaurs and
22:20
Speaker 1: t Shue trains. A lot of his and cars, a
22:23
Speaker 1: lot of his clothing had that emblazoned on the front.
22:28
Speaker 1: Any idea why they're keeping that a secret? Max Lewis,
22:31
Speaker 1: So what they've told us is that they are keeping
22:33
Speaker 1: the boys clothes, they're keeping the book, not releasing the
22:38
Speaker 1: voice close because they don't want to disrupt or compromise
22:42
Speaker 1: the integrity of the investigation. I don't know what I'm
22:46
Speaker 1: not a police officer. I don't know why police do
22:47
Speaker 1: what they do. But like you said, it seems like
22:49
Speaker 1: that would be really helpful in identifying this boy. But
22:53
Speaker 1: I'll leave it to them to decide. You're right, Max Lewis,
22:56
Speaker 1: Karen Smith. There are reasons sometimes at police told peculiar
23:02
Speaker 1: facts in a case that only the killer would know.
23:06
Speaker 1: So when they catch the killer, if and when he
23:09
Speaker 1: or she gives a statement, you match it up to
23:12
Speaker 1: what has been withheld from the public to see if
23:14
Speaker 1: it's really the killer or if it's just a nut
23:16
Speaker 1: making a false confession. However, what we need to identify
23:21
Speaker 1: this child, this little boy, there's just like put in
23:24
Speaker 1: a suitcase and like I said, left like an old
23:26
Speaker 1: pair of pajamas out in a suitcase right in the woods.
23:29
Speaker 1: I don't see how this is really helping them to
23:31
Speaker 1: withhold that evidence. Well, yeah, I'm on the fence with it,
23:34
Speaker 1: and I think the reason that they're doing it is
23:36
Speaker 1: they don't want an influx of false leads taking the
23:39
Speaker 1: investigators off the track. But if the public doesn't know
23:42
Speaker 1: what kind of clothes this child was wearing, it makes
23:45
Speaker 1: it difficult for the public to help. So it's kind
23:48
Speaker 1: of a catch. Twenty two Nancy, a little boy just
23:50
Speaker 1: five years old, left dead in a suitcase out in
23:55
Speaker 1: the middle of the woods halfway between Indianapolis and Louisville
24:00
Speaker 1: by a mushroom hunter that seemingly and I'll go out
24:04
Speaker 1: on a limb, is not involved. He's actually a good
24:08
Speaker 1: samaritan that calls in the discovery. When I heard his
24:12
Speaker 1: voice describing what he found, I thought immediately he was
24:16
Speaker 1: not involved. So what do we know? Take a listen
24:20
Speaker 1: now to Tom Lalley, whas eleven, a boy found dead
24:24
Speaker 1: in southern Indiana, remains nameless. His story and the suit
24:28
Speaker 1: case he was found in have gained national attention, hundreds
24:32
Speaker 1: of tips submitted, and still no answers except for one.
24:36
Speaker 1: We now know how the boy died. At this time,
24:39
Speaker 1: there's no evidence that leads investigators to believe that he
24:43
Speaker 1: was alive when he went into the suit case. Sergeant
24:45
Speaker 1: Carrie Hooles says investigators got the autopsy and toxicology reports
24:50
Speaker 1: on May twentieth. Seven days later, they share this unnamed
24:54
Speaker 1: boy died from an electrolyte imbalance, most likely due to
24:58
Speaker 1: gastro enteritis, which in common Layman's term would be vomiting
25:02
Speaker 1: and diarrhea, and that resulted in dehydration fetal dehydration, and
25:07
Speaker 1: he says the toxicology rapport found nothing significant. Straight out
25:11
Speaker 1: to you, doctor Michelle Dupree, translate please, Nancy, gastro enter iris.
25:16
Speaker 1: Enteritis is a viral infection, mostly commonly caused stomach flue.
25:20
Speaker 1: And the problem with this is that it does cause
25:23
Speaker 1: vomiting and diarrhea. And the problem with that is that
25:25
Speaker 1: you use up electrolytes, you get rid of those. And
25:29
Speaker 1: electrolytes are very narrowly balanced in our system. They control
25:33
Speaker 1: things like even our heart rate, our blood pressure. So
25:36
Speaker 1: when those are depleted from nausea and vomiting and diarrhea,
25:40
Speaker 1: then we may go into a cardiacorythea, we may become dehydrated,
25:44
Speaker 1: and then that causes that cardiacorythm okay, let's follow this through.
25:48
Speaker 1: Katherine Mars joining me Special Victims Liaison for the State
25:51
Speaker 1: Attorney's office there in Charles County. Catherine, again, thank you
25:55
Speaker 1: for being with us. So let's go with what we know.
25:57
Speaker 1: The cod is as vomiting and diarrhea gastro enteritis. What
26:05
Speaker 1: does that tell you about who left this boy his
26:09
Speaker 1: body folded up in a suitcase. It says welcome to
26:12
Speaker 1: the fabulous Las Vegas on the front of it. Well,
26:14
Speaker 1: it tells me that I need to start looking at
26:16
Speaker 1: neglect of the child, because if the child was this ill,
26:21
Speaker 1: that the child died from the electrolyte deficiency or dehydration,
26:25
Speaker 1: that means he wasn't getting proper care while he wasn't
26:28
Speaker 1: while he was sick, or he wasn't taken to a doctor,
26:31
Speaker 1: he wasn't being given fluids by his caregivers. So that
26:34
Speaker 1: tells me that there is an outside component to his
26:37
Speaker 1: death that I need to look at as well. It
26:39
Speaker 1: also tells me, Katherine Morris, that this may have been
26:42
Speaker 1: someone that was afraid that the boy died on their
26:47
Speaker 1: watch and that they would go to jail. Now, who
26:52
Speaker 1: would that be? A mom or dad that had had
26:55
Speaker 1: trouble with defacts from my family Shoulder's services before, some
27:00
Speaker 1: that they have had a criminal history or just a
27:03
Speaker 1: neglectful parent. That feels they'd be the one that got
27:07
Speaker 1: in trouble. Of course they would be. They let this
27:10
Speaker 1: boy die. A five year old little boy. You couldn't
27:15
Speaker 1: have been any guitar than what Jackie three feet or so?
27:19
Speaker 1: Five years old. Now, my question, Max lewis the Fox
27:24
Speaker 1: fifty nine. Have police drawn and released a composite sketch
27:29
Speaker 1: of the boy? No, Nancy, they haven't. That's another thing
27:33
Speaker 1: that people have been asking about. You know, at least
27:36
Speaker 1: give us something more because clearly what they've released so
27:38
Speaker 1: far is not working. It's not helped identify this boy.
27:42
Speaker 1: And they're still basically went back at the drawing board.
27:46
Speaker 1: And so that's a lot of what a lot of
27:47
Speaker 1: people are asking. But they haven't done it. They again
27:50
Speaker 1: are citing compromising the investigation. I'll leave that to the
27:54
Speaker 1: expert to decide whether or not that is true or not,
27:57
Speaker 1: but we'll see. Okay, that's total bs. Look, I know,
28:03
Speaker 1: Max Lewis, it's not your message. You're just the messenger.
28:07
Speaker 1: But step one is identifying the boy. We need a
28:10
Speaker 1: composite sketch. Take a listen to our cut twelve. This
28:13
Speaker 1: is todd aaleh A s As this search continues, we
28:18
Speaker 1: know police are able to release a composite or photo
28:21
Speaker 1: of the boy and have chosen not to the description
28:24
Speaker 1: of this boy could apply to so many people. Why
28:26
Speaker 1: not release a rendering or what kind of closed the
28:29
Speaker 1: child was wear? Right? And that's been discussed, But again,
28:31
Speaker 1: the main thing is if somebody knows of a child
28:33
Speaker 1: who fits the description that's missing, they need to give
28:36
Speaker 1: the call. Having a picture shouldn't make somebody all of
28:39
Speaker 1: a sudden recall, oh that child if they know a
28:42
Speaker 1: child who's missing. But what if they wouldn't know the
28:43
Speaker 1: child is missing, but they could recognize the child. Well. Again,
28:46
Speaker 1: again there's many different reasons. But sometimes you know, diagrams, drawings,
28:52
Speaker 1: Sometimes those renderings can lead to misconceptions as well. So
28:56
Speaker 1: it can open up at Pandora's box of people saying, well,
28:59
Speaker 1: I thought it was this child when possibly not, so
29:02
Speaker 1: at this time they fill us in the best interests
29:04
Speaker 1: of the case, not to do that. Two. Karen L.
29:07
Speaker 1: Smith joining me, forensics expert, joining side of LA. This
29:11
Speaker 1: isn't exactly right. A composite, as we are calling it,
29:16
Speaker 1: is typically made when you can't get a full facial Okay, Here,
29:21
Speaker 1: like a photograph, you make it based on an or
29:25
Speaker 1: several eyewitnesses. Here we have the boy. His body is
29:32
Speaker 1: still intact. It's not like a drawing it's going to
29:36
Speaker 1: be that far off from the child. In fact, they
29:40
Speaker 1: may have been able to actually take a picture of
29:43
Speaker 1: the child and enhance it to make it look as
29:47
Speaker 1: if it were in life. I don't get how they're saying, Oh,
29:51
Speaker 1: a composite would open up a Pandora's box of false leads.
29:57
Speaker 1: Hey they need something. Yeah, I don't under stand that
30:00
Speaker 1: at all. A composite sketch or a composite drawing can
30:04
Speaker 1: lead to people. You know. Yes, you may not say
30:06
Speaker 1: yes I know this missing boy, but you may say,
30:09
Speaker 1: you know, I saw this little boy with so and so.
30:13
Speaker 1: It looks familiar to me. None of that makes sense.
30:16
Speaker 1: And you know the clothing I said I was on
30:18
Speaker 1: the fence. The composite drawing. I don't understand that at all.
30:21
Speaker 1: M Okay, guys, take a listen now to our friend
30:24
Speaker 1: Katrina and Nickel at w d RB, just off a
30:29
Speaker 1: rural road in Washington County. One answer can be added
30:33
Speaker 1: to a long list of questions that remain in the
30:36
Speaker 1: cause of death of the young male as electrolyte imbalance.
30:41
Speaker 1: According to IP, the autopsy results say vomiting and diarrhea
30:45
Speaker 1: likely resulted in severe dehydration. It's a very odd, tragic case.
30:50
Speaker 1: Medical director for Norton Children's Hospital, Mark McDonald explains that
30:54
Speaker 1: a death related to electrolyte imbalance leads to organ slowly
30:59
Speaker 1: shutting down. You don't really know what's going on. You don't,
31:03
Speaker 1: you're delirious, and you eventually become unconscious and to die
31:07
Speaker 1: from something likes of your dehydration is uncommon for a
31:11
Speaker 1: young child, who police believe is a five year old
31:13
Speaker 1: boy and can take days. The only circumstance I would
31:17
Speaker 1: think that a younger child could become so dehydrated they
31:23
Speaker 1: passed away would be if they were really by themselves.
31:26
Speaker 1: You know, if they were left alone, it didn't have
31:28
Speaker 1: the means to help themselves or have someone around to
31:31
Speaker 1: help them. That is exactly what you were saying, Katherine
31:36
Speaker 1: Marsh Catherine Special Victims Liaison. This child was horribly neglected
31:42
Speaker 1: and you just heard the cop hit the nail on
31:45
Speaker 1: the head. The child was alone and died as one
31:50
Speaker 1: organ after the next shut down that's correct, and it's
31:55
Speaker 1: the heartbreaking thing, especially when you heard him say this
31:58
Speaker 1: kind of death would have taken days. So we had
32:00
Speaker 1: a child who suffered for days, and then after that
32:04
Speaker 1: suffering was pulled it up, put in a suitcase and
32:07
Speaker 1: disposed on the side of the road. Time stories with
32:23
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, doctor Michelle Duprey joining me. What would this
32:32
Speaker 1: child have gone through as each organ shut down, massive
32:37
Speaker 1: diarrhea so weak you probably couldn't even get up and
32:40
Speaker 1: go to the bathroom, vomiting all alone, Nancy. He would
32:44
Speaker 1: have obviously been very tired, probably had a fever, very
32:48
Speaker 1: sore muscles, abdominal pain again, the diarrhea, dehydration, bloody stools.
32:54
Speaker 1: He would have basically become unconscious and then succumbed to death. Guys,
32:58
Speaker 1: I'm looking in his suitcase, and if you look at
33:00
Speaker 1: it very carefully, it's abundantly clear this is not something
33:05
Speaker 1: that was just bought for this purpose. I've been examining
33:09
Speaker 1: it very closely. The wheels are old and worn out,
33:16
Speaker 1: that the suitcase therefore is old and worn out. But
33:23
Speaker 1: isn't it true? Karen Smith forensi's expert that the brand
33:29
Speaker 1: of suitcase can be identified and it can be figured
33:33
Speaker 1: out where it was sold. Isn't that true? Yes, it
33:36
Speaker 1: is absolutely. You can find out the manufacturers and you
33:40
Speaker 1: can find out the stores where it is sold. Now
33:43
Speaker 1: that's kind of like finding a needle in a haystack,
33:46
Speaker 1: but it is a lead that needs to be followed.
33:48
Speaker 1: And Nancy, I'd just like to say this, finding the
33:51
Speaker 1: identity of this boy is paramount. I suggest taking the
33:56
Speaker 1: victim's DNA from his autosity and putting it into public
34:00
Speaker 1: genealogical and ancestral DNA databases to see if any distant
34:03
Speaker 1: relatives have submitted their DNA to those public records. Try
34:07
Speaker 1: to find a partial matching work back from there. As
34:10
Speaker 1: little boys DNA is not going to be in CODEUS,
34:12
Speaker 1: the combined DNA index system that's used for criminal cases,
34:16
Speaker 1: but there may be a lead in those ancestral databases.
34:20
Speaker 1: It'll take time, but it's worth a shot. We have
34:22
Speaker 1: to find out his identity. It's called genetic genealogy. And
34:27
Speaker 1: while you people will often say, well don't you have
34:30
Speaker 1: a fingerprint or don't you have DNA from the victim? Well, yes,
34:35
Speaker 1: that's not that hard to get. But then the question
34:39
Speaker 1: is who you're going to match it too. Example, say
34:43
Speaker 1: in a rape case they're semen. You can get the
34:46
Speaker 1: DNA from the semen, but you've got to figure out
34:49
Speaker 1: whose is it. And that is where databases DNA databases
34:56
Speaker 1: come into play. If the perp as a criminal history
35:01
Speaker 1: and has given his or her DNA or their fingerprints,
35:05
Speaker 1: then you can match up. Otherwise the millions and millions
35:10
Speaker 1: of people that could be the part. You have to
35:13
Speaker 1: have something to match it too. So in this case,
35:16
Speaker 1: you would take the child's DNA and do an ancestral
35:21
Speaker 1: DNA match genetic genealogy, and sometimes you have to go
35:25
Speaker 1: way back, say the eighteen hundreds, and you get a
35:29
Speaker 1: hit to somebody's great great great great great grandfather. Then
35:32
Speaker 1: you follow it down, follow it down all the way
35:35
Speaker 1: down to the here and now the present. Who are
35:38
Speaker 1: the relatives here and now who were in the area
35:42
Speaker 1: who would have had a child this age. That's how
35:46
Speaker 1: you do it. Now there's the other factor. What if
35:48
Speaker 1: this child was in foster care and was not with
35:52
Speaker 1: his genetic parents. Well, guess what, you can still find
35:55
Speaker 1: the parents and then find who had the child in
35:58
Speaker 1: foster care. I want to go back to doctor Alan
36:01
Speaker 1: Blockkey clinical forensic psychologists joining us out of Birmingham Doctor
36:06
Speaker 1: Block Giggin, thank you for being with us. I want
36:08
Speaker 1: to analyze not only he would put a child like
36:12
Speaker 1: top mom casey Anthony did put a child in a
36:14
Speaker 1: plastic bag and throw it in the woods, but who
36:18
Speaker 1: similarly would put their child's dead body in this suitcase
36:24
Speaker 1: and leave it in the woods. And who would stand
36:28
Speaker 1: by and let their child vomit and have diarrhea to
36:32
Speaker 1: the point the child dies as the organs shut down.
36:35
Speaker 1: A child in intense pain. You know, a profoundly neglectful parent,
36:40
Speaker 1: obviously you know, and why they're neglectful. There can be
36:43
Speaker 1: many reasons, substance abuse, mental illness, etc. Etc. But the
36:50
Speaker 1: profoundness is so striking here and then again, like I
36:54
Speaker 1: said earlier, they put the boy in a suitcase and
36:58
Speaker 1: put her like The mindset of whoever did this is
37:05
Speaker 1: cold and calculated and cruel a five year old little boy.
37:12
Speaker 1: Think of your child at that young age. Take a
37:17
Speaker 1: listen to our Frank Katrina Nickel at the b DRM
37:21
Speaker 1: ISP does believe the boy was already dead when put
37:24
Speaker 1: in the suitcase, and previously said the boy was likely
37:27
Speaker 1: found within about a week from dying. He appeared to
37:30
Speaker 1: be at least somewhat cared for, so that's again not
37:36
Speaker 1: what you expect. Autopsy results also revealed the boy was
37:40
Speaker 1: an average height and wait for a five year old,
37:42
Speaker 1: and a toxicology report came back negative. As far as
37:46
Speaker 1: just who this boy is, where he's from, who left
37:50
Speaker 1: him in the suitcase, it's all a mystery of the
37:53
Speaker 1: documented children that are missing on the Missing Children's list
37:56
Speaker 1: across the country. At this point, there's no match on
37:59
Speaker 1: any child that's list as missing. ISP will not release
38:02
Speaker 1: a rendering or drawing of the boy at this time.
38:05
Speaker 1: Sometimes those renderings can lead to misconceptions as well. They
38:09
Speaker 1: fill us in the best interests of the case not
38:11
Speaker 1: to do that, police said. Detectives on the case are
38:14
Speaker 1: utilizing any information they have with all available technology. You know,
38:18
Speaker 1: we've had many cases when we throw this out to
38:22
Speaker 1: Katherine marsh, many cases where we have tried to identify
38:26
Speaker 1: a child. Sometimes these cases go cold and it's decades
38:31
Speaker 1: later that the child is identified and there's no way
38:34
Speaker 1: to bring the killer to justice. What do you advise, Catherine,
38:40
Speaker 1: so this case doesn't go cold. I think I'd start
38:43
Speaker 1: with what so many people on this panel have said,
38:46
Speaker 1: I think it's imperative to get the composite sketch or
38:49
Speaker 1: the picture of this young victim out there. I think
38:52
Speaker 1: we need to know what he looks like, because then
38:56
Speaker 1: we can start moving forward with identifying him and building
38:59
Speaker 1: the blocks of the last moments of his life or
39:02
Speaker 1: the last time somebody saw him. What we know is
39:04
Speaker 1: in six weeks, nobody's reported a child missing to the
39:10
Speaker 1: police that fit his description. So it's not going to
39:12
Speaker 1: come from the caregivers. It needs to come from people
39:15
Speaker 1: in the community. We need to get what he looks
39:17
Speaker 1: like out You know, that's really interesting. Remember Karen Smith
39:22
Speaker 1: the House of Horrors in California, that Turpin parents seems
39:25
Speaker 1: treated their children so horribly. They had many children. Not
39:31
Speaker 1: one neighbor reported never seeing the children. Nobody said a thing,
39:37
Speaker 1: So I doubt very seriously that neighbors or anybody in
39:41
Speaker 1: the community is going to come forward. What's our best
39:44
Speaker 1: chance at this point? I have two suggestions. One would
39:48
Speaker 1: be to consider using what's called wet vacuum technology, like
39:51
Speaker 1: an m VAC. These can extract really minute samples of
39:55
Speaker 1: DNA that might not be recoverable by standard methods like
39:59
Speaker 1: swab or taping. These wet vacuums spray a buffer onto
40:03
Speaker 1: the substrate and then pull everything out into a bottle.
40:06
Speaker 1: This can find other sources of DNA that are not
40:09
Speaker 1: the victims, so that may be a lead another one,
40:13
Speaker 1: and this is a little bit of a wide net.
40:15
Speaker 1: But there may be spores or pollen or other fauna
40:18
Speaker 1: present on his clothes or in that suitcase that are
40:21
Speaker 1: foreign to the area where he was found. That can
40:24
Speaker 1: give investigators an area of focus. So they might want
40:27
Speaker 1: to contact a forenic botanist to consult on microscopic analysis
40:32
Speaker 1: of that clothing to see if there's any unusual plant
40:35
Speaker 1: material from a specific state or region or even other country. Nancy,
40:39
Speaker 1: we don't know where this little boy is from. He
40:42
Speaker 1: may not be from the United States, which may be
40:45
Speaker 1: why the person who left him there didn't consult a doctor.
40:49
Speaker 1: I'm not giving an excuse. It's disgusting, but you know,
40:52
Speaker 1: I'm just going to go out on a limb and
40:54
Speaker 1: say he was from the US. Okay, someone that lived
40:58
Speaker 1: in or had visited Vegas, someone that was familiar with
41:02
Speaker 1: this area and new to dump the body there. I
41:06
Speaker 1: would also be interested in the clothing where it came
41:08
Speaker 1: from what store, what mall in this country to give
41:12
Speaker 1: me an idea of where the purp lives as well
41:15
Speaker 1: as did the boy have on shoes? Because on those
41:18
Speaker 1: shoes would be a wealth of forensic evidence. Agreed Tipline
41:24
Speaker 1: eight one two two four, eight four three seven four
41:27
Speaker 1: or toll three eight hundred eight seven two sixty seven
41:31
Speaker 1: forty three. We wait as justice and falls Nancy Grace
41:36
Speaker 1: Crimes Story, signing off goodbye friend,