Latest / Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast / IFH 879: The Onion Co-Founder Reveals Why Most Comedy Scripts FAIL with Scott Dikkers

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IFH 879: The Onion Co-Founder Reveals Why Most Comedy Scripts FAIL with Scott Dikkers · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

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  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, episode number 879.
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  Speaker 1: You try to do it, and you do it honestly.
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  Speaker 1: I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is
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  Speaker 1: independent film into a profitable business. It's harder today than
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  Speaker 1: Enjoy today's episode with guest host, Dave Bolas.
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  Speaker 3: Join me today is Scott Dickers. Scott founded the world's
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  Speaker 3: first humor website, TheOnion.com in 1995. And a few years earlier,
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  Speaker 3: he actually helped founded the original Onion newspaper. Scott has
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  Speaker 3: also served as The Onion's owner and editor-in-chief on and
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  Speaker 3: off so much for the last quarter century. Scott is
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  Speaker 3: also the author of the book How to Write Funny,
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  Speaker 3: which is the basis of the writing with the Onion
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  Speaker 3: program he created and teaches at the Second City Training
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  Speaker 3: Center in Chicago. Scott additionally has also written and directed
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  Speaker 3: several award-winning short films, the two feature films Spaceman and
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  Speaker 3: Bad Meat. And Scott also hosts his own podcast, the
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  Speaker 3: Comedy Insider Podcast. Scott, how are you, sir?
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  Speaker 4: I'm good. How are you, Dave?
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  Speaker 3: Pretty good. Good.
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  Speaker 4: Thanks for having me on your podcast.
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  Speaker 3: It's a pleasure, my friend. Scott, the one question I
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  Speaker 3: always start off with is, Scott, how did you get
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  Speaker 3: started in writing and how did you get started with
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  Speaker 3: Youngin as well?
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  Speaker 4: I got started doing comedy writing just sort of as
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  Speaker 4: a force of nature, I think. As a young kid,
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  Speaker 4: I was always very creative. I was always making things.
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  Speaker 4: I made a lot of radio plays with cassettes. I
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  Speaker 4: was conscripting my friends to write scripts and perform. And
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  Speaker 4: You know, you had to write those. And we put
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  Speaker 4: on plays. You had to write those. There was a
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  Speaker 4: lot of writing. I drew a lot, you know, and
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  Speaker 4: often drawing would have captions. So there's writing there. And
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  Speaker 4: it seemed like that was the nexus of all of
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  Speaker 4: my creative energy. And as a kid, I was drawn
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  Speaker 4: to that for whatever reason. Maybe I was– I got
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  Speaker 4: some good positive feedback from that or whatever. But it
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  Speaker 4: became a big part of my identity from a very
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  Speaker 4: early age. I still have calendars that I made for
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  Speaker 4: my grandparents as gifts. And when I was like six
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  Speaker 4: and seven, I would draw the picture and make the
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  Speaker 4: calendar grid and put jokes on it. And I would
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  Speaker 4: make little ABC books and other kind of books out
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  Speaker 4: of those sketch notebook things. And, you know, I've just
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  Speaker 4: never stopped. That's just what I've always been doing. So...
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  Speaker 4: My reality kind of hit me when I got out
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  Speaker 4: of high school and didn't really have any practical skills.
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  Speaker 4: I didn't have any connections with the showbiz industry or anything,
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  Speaker 4: so I didn't know that there was really any realistic
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  Speaker 4: way for me to ever do that as a job.
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  Speaker 4: I could see people doing it out in the world,
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  Speaker 4: but back in those days, there was a chasm between
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  Speaker 4: a lonely kid in the, in the middle of Wisconsin
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  Speaker 4: and the entertainment industry. Like there was no internet. There
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  Speaker 4: was an ivory tower, a giant gate between you and
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  Speaker 4: even the agents that would determine whether you were worthy
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  Speaker 4: of having your stuff seen by anyone. You couldn't just
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  Speaker 4: post a video online. You had to make a movie
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  Speaker 4: and send it to a film festival. And then, you know,
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  Speaker 4: who knows who's going to see it there. It's just like,
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  Speaker 4: It was pretty daunting, like how do you how you
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  Speaker 4: even get started in that? And I really had no clue.
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  Speaker 4: So I went away to college and well, I took
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  Speaker 4: a couple of years off first and I worked at
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  Speaker 4: McDonald's and was drawing cartoons during that time. I kind
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  Speaker 4: of had settled on cartooning as a way to start
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  Speaker 4: my entertainment slash comedy career because it was cheap and
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  Speaker 4: my my family was dirt poor. So there was really
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  Speaker 4: no other option. It wasn't like I was going to
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  Speaker 4: be investing in any kind of big projects. Cartooning was easy,
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  Speaker 4: paper and pen. So I drew a lot of cartoons
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  Speaker 4: and sent them away to the syndicates and to newspapers
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  Speaker 4: and just was roundly rejected, just constantly rejected. And I
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  Speaker 4: got this great book from the library about how to
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  Speaker 4: draw cartoons. And it was such a treasure to me
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  Speaker 4: because it was very practical and about the nuts and
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  Speaker 4: bolts of here's the type of pens you should use
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  Speaker 4: and here's how big you should draw it. But there
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  Speaker 4: was this great piece of advice in there. It was
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  Speaker 4: the most valuable thing in there. And that was cherish
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  Speaker 4: your rejection letters. Love them. Because I took that to heart.
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  Speaker 4: It was like whenever I got a rejection letter from
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  Speaker 4: a big syndicate, it was exciting to me. It didn't
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  Speaker 4: in any way daunt me. And had I not gotten
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  Speaker 4: that advice, maybe I would have been crushed. I don't know.
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  Speaker 4: But I kept at it. And eventually I did succeed
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  Speaker 4: with a comic strip. in a college newspaper in Madison, Wisconsin,
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  Speaker 4: where I was then living. And this is maybe about
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  Speaker 4: three years after high school. So three years of banging
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  Speaker 4: my head against the wall, sending out comics. And so
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  Speaker 4: they ran my comic strip on a trial basis in
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  Speaker 4: the Daily Cardinal for no pay to see if it
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  Speaker 4: would catch on. And lo and behold, it caught on.
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  Speaker 4: And pretty quickly, it became like one of the really
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  Speaker 4: popular things on campus. And people were wearing t-shirts. The
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  Speaker 4: comic strip was Jim's Journal, which is still.
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  Speaker 4: Being run. It's on Go Comics and Andrews McNeil, the
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  Speaker 4: Universal Press people put out a ton of books. Those
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  Speaker 4: are still around. I haven't been drawing the strip daily
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  Speaker 4: for a long time, but there's a huge backlog and
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  Speaker 4: they're fairly evergreen. They're not too dated, which is pretty great.
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  Speaker 4: And that success, that local success with that cartoon in Madison,
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  Speaker 4: Wisconsin is what led to The Onion because these two
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  Speaker 4: very sharp guys approached me about starting a humor magazine
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  Speaker 4: and they wanted me to be involved because I was
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  Speaker 4: kind of like the big man on campus comedy wise
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  Speaker 4: and I was very intrigued and I was again this
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  Speaker 4: is the sort of thing I'd been doing my whole
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  Speaker 4: life it's just like writing comedy and comic strips I
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  Speaker 4: wasn't really identified as or in love with being a
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  Speaker 4: cartoonist it was just one avenue for doing comedy writing
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  Speaker 4: but here was another one so I was excited And
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  Speaker 4: I totally seized that opportunity. And after about a year
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  Speaker 4: of working with those guys and, you know, again, it
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  Speaker 4: was for no money.
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  Speaker 3: This was all.
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  Speaker 4: Very seat of your pants. These two guys, Tim and Chris,
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  Speaker 4: sold all the ads and did all the paste up
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  Speaker 4: and they couldn't really afford to pay too many people.
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  Speaker 4: So I volunteered basically for them for I think a
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  Speaker 4: half a year. being kind of a de facto editor.
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  Speaker 4: I would just write everything and edit everything. And they
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  Speaker 4: were just happy to have the help. And after about
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  Speaker 4: a year of that, they decided they wanted out. They
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  Speaker 4: were just, their adrenals were shot and they wanted to sell.
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  Speaker 4: So they sold me The Onion along with two other partners.
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  Speaker 4: One was their top ad sales guy. Another was their
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  Speaker 4: top production guy. He knew how to use the computer
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  Speaker 4: and I was the top creative guy. So The three
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  Speaker 4: of us, after one year, owned The Onion. And then
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  Speaker 4: we bought out the production guy partner a couple years
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  Speaker 4: after that. And so for the next 15 years, I
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  Speaker 4: was owner-editor. And it was a long, slow slog. People
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  Speaker 4: often ask, what was the moment when you really knew
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  Speaker 4: The Onion had made it or whatever? And to me,
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  Speaker 4: it's such a blur of hard work. You know, we
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  Speaker 4: were always trying to get more known. We were always
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  Speaker 4: trying to get seen. We were always trying to get discovered.
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  Speaker 4: So we would expand The Onion to other cities and
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  Speaker 4: we would send it out to Hollywood. We would sign
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  Speaker 4: important people up for subscriptions just so they could get
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: it and see it. And over the years, like that
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  Speaker 4: paid off because ultimately some people in Hollywood discovered it.
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  Speaker 4: Weird Al Yankovic was an early adopter and he's very connected.
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  Speaker 4: So he told all his friends about it. Bob Odenkirk
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  Speaker 4: became a big fan early on.
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  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
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  Speaker 1: And now back to the show.
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  Speaker 4: And we started, then we started getting approached by people
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  Speaker 4: from Hollywood agents, people who wanted to do an onion
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  Speaker 4: TV show, all this other stuff really started happening, uh,
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  Speaker 4: about the same time that we went online in 95.
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  Speaker 4: So like 95 to 2000 or so was like, Those
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  Speaker 4: were the prime years when The Onion was really making it.
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  Speaker 4: And that's kind of the story in a nutshell.
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  Speaker 3: You know, sometimes The Onion writes a story, Scott, and
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  Speaker 3: immediately I'm like, I swear to God they're spying on
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  Speaker 3: my life because this could be me. Especially, you know,
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  Speaker 3: because there are so many stories that just hit home
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  Speaker 3: with me about like, you know, like local guy– you know,
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  Speaker 3: hates to see friends from high school or something like that.
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  Speaker 3: And I'm like, like, this is exactly what I, you know, uh,
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  Speaker 3: what I'm feeling. But, um, but that, you know, that
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  Speaker 3: is an amazing story though, because that just shows, you know,
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  Speaker 3: how much effort and time and, and, you know, patience
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  Speaker 3: you had to have not only to get this off
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  Speaker 3: the ground, but just to see it through for all
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  Speaker 3: those years. Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: And, you know, uh, God bless the local advertisers in Madison,
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  Speaker 4: Wisconsin that sustained us for those early years. and just
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  Speaker 4: kept paying for our printing every week. You know, if
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  Speaker 4: we hadn't had that, I don't know how it would
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  Speaker 4: have possibly sustained itself because nobody really made any money until,
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  Speaker 4: you know, the mid to late nineties. Um, but yeah, the, uh,
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  Speaker 4: the area man type stories that you're talking about, like that's,
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  Speaker 4: that's one type of humor that, you know, after having
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  Speaker 4: done that kind of volume of humor writing for so
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  Speaker 4: many years, I'm sort of like, I think of myself
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  Speaker 4: as the Neo of comedy writing. Like I can see
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  Speaker 4: the code. Like I know what's funny about what and
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  Speaker 4: how to make things funny. And what you're talking about
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  Speaker 4: is reference humor. It's a type of humor where all
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  Speaker 4: you have to do is reference something that is a
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  Speaker 4: common experience that other people have shared. And it's an
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  Speaker 4: immediate laugh. So this sort of like humorless intellectual deconstruction
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  Speaker 4: of humor, is how I've often approached it. Like even
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  Speaker 4: way back, maybe when I was a kid, I was
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  Speaker 4: doing it for pure fun. But once I was doing
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  Speaker 4: my comic strip and then The Onion, it was all
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  Speaker 4: very calculated. It was all about how do you layer
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  Speaker 4: the different kinds of humor to achieve the maximum laugh?
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  Speaker 4: You know, how do you concentrate the humor in such
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  Speaker 4: a way that people are just going to be, you know,
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  Speaker 4: it's hard to make people laugh out loud in print.
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  Speaker 4: I think it's one of the hardest mediums to do
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  Speaker 4: comedy in. And so that was our charge every week.
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  Speaker 4: And every week we tried to get better at it.
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  Speaker 4: And over the years, the other writers were amazing. And
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  Speaker 4: all of us working together as a team, we just
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  Speaker 4: really mastered that craft. And it was an amazing experience.
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  Speaker 3: And see, that's why I asked you to be on
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  Speaker 3: the show because I want to, you know, because you
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: are the Neo of comedy writing. I love the way
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: that you put that because, you know, that I think,
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: you know, is such a skill because, you know, when
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: I had Steve Kaplan on here, Steve Kaplan, I don't
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: know if you're familiar with his work. Sure.
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  Speaker 4: I know his book.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Hidden Tools of Comedy. And, you know,
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  Speaker 3: he was on the show and, you know, he was
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  Speaker 3: discussing about how you know, comedy is very hard because
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  Speaker 3: it's so, uh, it's so subjective because what you find funny,
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  Speaker 3: I find funny. It could be completely two different things.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, he's, he's talking mostly about screenwriting, uh,
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  Speaker 4: comedy and character based comedy. And he's great at that.
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  Speaker 4: And I, I think his book is great. And I
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  Speaker 4: think his advice is great. What I do in my book,
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: how to write funny is, um, character is one of
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  Speaker 4: 11 different ways to be funny. So, um, the way
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  Speaker 4: to really pack a wallop with humor is to layer
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  Speaker 4: some of those other 10 things. So the whole thing
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  Speaker 4: about comedy being subjective, yes, to a certain degree it
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  Speaker 4: is subjective. Everybody finds different things funny. But comedy is
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  Speaker 4: like baseball. It's a game of averages. So if you're,
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  Speaker 4: as long as you're batting a home run once in
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  Speaker 4: a while, you're solid. And a professional comedian might be
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  Speaker 4: batting a home run like, 50, 60% of the time,
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  Speaker 4: and he's solid. And you kind of have to approach
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  Speaker 4: it that way. That's kind of where the subjective nature
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  Speaker 4: comes into it. There's no formula for 100% success in comedy.
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  Speaker 4: It's just not possible. But nobody's expecting or wanting that.
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  Speaker 4: And we would always shoot for that. Like we'd put
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: out an issue of The Onion or just any new
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: story we put out, we want to make sure it's
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: going to be as funny as possible to as many
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: people as possible. So we want it to be incredibly accessible,
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  Speaker 4: firing on so many different layers that there's going to
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: be something in there for everybody. But I know how
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  Speaker 4: it goes. You know, again, print is hard. So, you know,
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  Speaker 4: you go to the Onion website and you, you tootle around,
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: you know, you might get a couple of chuckles, you know,
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: or take another example, like watching The Simpsons, historically, you know,
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: probably the greatest comedy show that's ever been on television. And,
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: you know, I might smirk once or twice in an episode,
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  Speaker 4: But that episode is packed with great jokes. So I'm
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  Speaker 4: a tough room. I don't laugh out loud at too
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: many things. So a couple of chuckles in a half hour,
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  Speaker 4: that's pretty good. Like that's a really good ratio as
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  Speaker 4: far as I'm concerned, ratio of time spent to laughs received.
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  Speaker 4: And so that's kind of what it's all about. So
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: within that context– There are many objective things about comedy,
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: like these 11 funny filters that I talk about. These
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: are things that are funny every time. They're not going
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: to hit everybody every time, but they're going to hit
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: somebody some of the time. And in comedy, that's really
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  Speaker 4: what you're going for. And again, as you stack these
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: things to increase the concentrated comedy power of each moment,
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: each joke, you're only going to increase your average. And
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  Speaker 4: that's really what the whole game is about.
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  Speaker 3: So Scott, when you said you were, you know, you're
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: a tough crowd, you know, is there any like, you know,
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: movies or TV shows that you've seen recently that, you know,
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: made you laugh out loud?
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  Speaker 4: I think I've laughed out loud at, you know, half
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: a dozen movies in my whole life. And a lot
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: of it has to do with where I was because then,
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: you know, again, laughter for me is, is very, it's
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: going to be very personal. And so, just because I
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: thought something was hilarious doesn't mean it's like the funniest
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: thing in the world. Um, but I mean, I think the, the,
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: if I had to go back and pick those five movies, uh,
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: one of them was, uh, spinal tap. I think I
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: got a good chuck chuckle out of that. Uh, the
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: king of comedy, I think is, is a laugher. There are, uh,
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: You know, a couple of Will Smith– I'm sorry, Will
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: Ferrell movies. Not Will Smith. Not particularly funny. I don't
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  Speaker 4: think I ever laughed at any of his jokes.
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  Speaker 3: Great actor.
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: Loved him in Ali. But he's better as a dramatic actor.
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: But yeah, like Anchorman, you know, some maybe Step Brothers.
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  Speaker 4: Like some of his stupider characters. goofier movies and then
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: ferris bueller's day off uh really had me cheering when
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: i saw that i just could not believe how great
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: that movie was when i saw it it's such an
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: amazing piece of work and it stands up it totally
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: stands the test of time and another one when i
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: saw this movie i was sitting there watching this movie
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  Speaker 4: saying this is the funniest movie i've ever seen my
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  Speaker 4: entire life i was laughing out loud in the theater
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: by myself i always see movies alone And it was amazing.
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  Speaker 4: So I went back to see the movie a second time.
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  Speaker 4: And here's the thing. First time I saw the movie,
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: I missed the first 10 or 15 minutes. Like I
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: was late. And I thought this movie was unpredictable and
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: totally surprising and funny and unbelievably great. I went back
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: early so I could catch the first 15 minutes. I
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: was telling myself, boy, The only way they could ruin
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: this movie would be if they spent the first 10
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: or 15 minutes explaining everything that's going to happen in
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: the movie. And I went, and that's exactly what they did.
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: I was aghast. I actually wrote a letter to the studio,
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: to the director, and I said, for the love of God,
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: cut those first 10, 15 minutes. You've got the greatest
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: comedy movie ever made here. You have ruined it. The
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: movie was Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: Oh, okay.
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: So anybody who hasn't seen it, rent it. Skip past
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: the first 10 or 15. Don't even think twice about it.
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: Just skip past it. You'll really enjoy it.
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: You know, I actually had the writer of John Wick on,
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: and he actually worked with Keanu Reeves.
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: And he has nothing but great things to say about Keanu.
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: This wasn't on the podcast, but I was actually talking
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: to him about Bill and Ted and stuff. And I
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: was like, you know, I said, you know, did you
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: ask him? Did you ask him if there's going to
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: do another one? And he said, no. He's like, we're
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: too busy talking about my movie, Dave. I was like, oh, damn. But,
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: you know, but yeah, I agree. that is an excellent
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: movie no pun intended.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: and now back to the show.
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: But, um, you know, you mix it and that's some very,
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: you know, uh, valid points, Scott, you know, and, you know,
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: I want to follow up with that, with the question
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: of when you see a lot of movies and TV shows,
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: you know, some of the more recent ones, uh, you know,
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: do you find that you laugh less or do you,
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: do you find them to be maybe too formulaic?
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: Uh, oh, because I can see the code, you mean?
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: Well, maybe not even just that, maybe even just like,
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: When you're watching the movie, for instance, and let's just
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: say a new comedy movie is coming out and you
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: sit there in the theater by yourself, do you already
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: know sort of like, oh, I can tell what the
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: plot points are going to be? I can tell– not
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: only from a comedy standpoint, I guess what I'm trying
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: to say is, but also from a writing standpoint.
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I can if I think about it. But
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: I like to check my brain at the door so
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: I can just sit back and enjoy it and I
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: don't– I want to experience a movie emotionally and not intellectually.
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: Because I don't necessarily want to be like a critic.
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: I don't want to go in there and know so
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: much about it that it kind of ruins the experience.
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: Because storytelling is a powerful human need. I need it.
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: It's like my religion. So if I were to go
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: in and predict like the plot points or how a
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: character is going to get resolved or something like that,
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: I do think that would kind of ruin the experience
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: for me. I can usually tell how the humor is
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: going to go, like when they're going to throw in
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: a joke to relieve tension and maybe what that joke
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: is going to be and stuff like that. But, you know,
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: a great movie knows how to deliver on the beats
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: that you're supposed to deliver on, but do it in
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: an unexpected way. And that's the joy of it.
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and that's a very interesting way to
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: take it. And that's a very good point, by the way, is,
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: you know, watching a movie either emotionally or intellectually. Because,
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: you know, I mean, you know, the common sort of
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: stereotype is that American movies are sort of more, you know,
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: leave your brain at the door. While, you know, like
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: a European movie is more of an intellectual sort of
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: like a whether you want to go internal or external,
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: so to speak. Right. But I think sometimes– I mean
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: even with doing the writing that I do and stuff
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: like that, sometimes I can sort of guess sometimes and
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: I can't really help it. But I sometimes will say
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: to myself, oh, I wonder if this is going to
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: be the plot twist, that this guy is not really dead,
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: that he faked his death to do this. And then–
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: I mean I try to shut that off sometimes, but
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: it just sort of pops in my head sometimes if
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean. I do.
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: And, you know, it happens to me as well. And
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: to me, that's a sign that the movie is not
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: doing a very good job of engaging me emotionally. If
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: my mind starts to drift into these predicting what's going
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: to happen, I just want to enjoy the moment. And yeah,
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: it's funny. I'm totally an American moviegoer. I don't like
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: intellectual films. I like fun movies that are not that
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: are kind of dumb. Like I just, I want to
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: kick back and have fun. I don't want to think
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: when I'm relaxing, you know, I think for my job,
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: so I don't want to think on my time off. Yeah.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: I completely understand what you mean. You know, it's kind
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: of like when, you know, I come home sometimes and
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: somebody asks me a tech question and I'm like, I
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: don't care about technology anymore. Just leave me alone. Yeah. Yeah.
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: I like that. That used to be a thing with
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: me where, I would tell people what I did for
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: a living that, you know, I write comedy or I
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: work at the onion or whatever I happen to be doing.
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: And they would say, Oh, you know, tell me a
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: joke or whatever. It's like the curse of the standup comic.
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: Who's like, Oh, so you're supposed to be funny, huh?
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: Do something funny.
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: It's like, you know what? I'm funny at work. I'm
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: off the clock right now. So I'm going to be
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: really boring. And I typically am pretty quiet in social situations.
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: In fact, I really prefer just to be alone and,
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: I don't like the pressure of having to be engaging
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: and entertaining. I just find that exhausting.
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: I completely understand. Sometimes when you go to a party
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: or something, you just want to grab some food and
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: go to a corner by yourself. I've been there too.
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: I'm just like I don't want to– because someone will
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: always say something like when I shot a TV pilot
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: a couple years ago, And they were like, oh, it's
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: a comedy, huh? And I said, yeah. And they were like, oh,
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: what's it about? And I told them and they're like,
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: it doesn't sound funny. I'm like, trust me, it is.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: You know, I said, it's just probably not your cup
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: of tea because, you know, they told me what they watched.
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, yeah, it wouldn't be up your alley
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: because usually I start off with like, do you like Seinfeld? No.
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: Do you like what's always in Philadelphia? No. Well, then
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: you won't like my show.
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's no fun like having to defensively respond
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: to critics all the time. Because everybody's a comedian, so
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: everybody thinks– and they know what they like, but they
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: don't know how to create it usually. And so if
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: you get talking– I hate talking about my work with
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: people in a social situation. I absolutely hate it because
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: I end up finding that I'm like justifying it or
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: defending it. And it's like I have no interest in that.
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: Just talking to me about the weather or your kids
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: or something, that's what I want to talk about.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, those are some of the questions coming up, Scott.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: I want to talk about the weather. Yeah, well, this
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: is different.
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: We're not at a party here. Yeah, I know.
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: I'm just kidding. You know, as you were talking about creating,
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: that's one of the questions I want to ask you
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: next was, you know, you've also made some short films
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: and you also made two feature films. Now, I wanted
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: to ask you, you know, I don't want to ask
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: you where your ideas come from because that's such a
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: broad question. But I wanted to ask you, though, is
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: How do you know when you have the right comedic
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: premise to even start a project? Because writing a first
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: draft and writing all– and even continuing is a very
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: time-consuming process. So you usually want to make sure that
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: you have something that you know is at least worthwhile
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: to chase. So how do you find that when you
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: know that a premise is actually a home run, so
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: to speak?
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so a couple of things there. First of all,
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: I think mistakes are a great teacher. so much more
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: than success is. So my first two features, I made
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: a lot of mistakes. And one key mistake I made
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: for both was I don't think I had a great
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: comedy concept. I had a burning desire to make a
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: movie both times. And that was my driving force. I
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: want to make a movie. So for me, it wasn't about, oh,
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: this material is really great or this material is really
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: inspiring me to want to make this movie. So Now,
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: and I don't know that I'm going to make another movie.
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: I'll write some, but I just don't have the constitution
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: for directing, I've learned. I'll do a short. I like
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: doing shorts, but features are just a whole other ball
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: of wax. I would want to make sure that I
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: have a concept that I love and that when I
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: tell it to other people, they're laughing and telling me
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: they can't wait to see the movie. To me, that's
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: a home run. If I got that, then I'm set.
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: If it's going to light a fire under me and
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: keep me going for however long it's going to take
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: to make the movie. And to know, you know, movies
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: are entertainment. They're not arts. They're a popular medium. People
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: have to like them. So if it's just some artsy
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: thing that only I love but nobody else loves, I
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: don't see any point in doing that. I have to
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: love it and everybody else has to love it. So
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: that's kind of my two-sided coin on when I have
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: the right concept is And it goes for anything. If
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: it's a book idea or some other project, movies are
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: just one of many medias that you can do comedy in, obviously.
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: So that's a very interesting take because I've done shorts too.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: And I know jumping from a short to a feature,
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: it is very different because a feature is like about
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: eight or so shorts put together. And suddenly, you know,
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: you're about a week in and you're like, oh, my God,
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: we're not even halfway done this. And, you know, and
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: so I completely understand where you're coming from, from that perspective. So,
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: you know, so, you know, just to continue on with
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: the question, you know, I wanted to ask, you know,
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: once you actually have that comic premise, you know, that,
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: you know, let's just say someone listening to this, they
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: had a comic premise and they were, you know, batting
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: around and they maybe sort of try to refine it
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: here and there and they decide they have something set
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: and they decide to write a first draft. What are
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: some of the tips that you have about writing a
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: first draft?
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: I think it's really important, first of all, to make
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: sure you have a good concept. And it can't be
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: just your gut feeling like that it's a good concept.
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: You have to vet it. You have to read it
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: to other people and they have to like it. You
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: really have to get a pretty unanimous response from your
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: expected audience that, oh man, I'd love to see that movie.
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: That'd be amazing. So that's number one. Number two is
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: you got to write it out in a paragraph. So
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: you kind of know the plot of the whole movie,
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: just in a paragraph, just like back of the DVD
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: box kind of a thing. And then read that for
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: people and see if that's doing it for them. Make
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: sure you're kind of delivering on their expectations for that
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: idea for whatever the genre is, assuming it's comedy. And
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: then the third thing is definitely write a treatment you
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: know like a three to five page long form paragraph
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: treatment that describes every scene describes what happens in every
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: scene and read that to people read it out loud.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: And now back to the show.
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: Probably take you 10 minutes. You need to pick a
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: few different readers. I'm sorry, a few different listeners that
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: you can read this to engage their reaction. A good
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: story spellbinds people and it gets them in a state
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: where they're just, they're gripped by the story. And you
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: need to see that happening. If you don't see that happening,
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: if you see them asking too many questions or starting
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: to do something else while you're telling it to them,
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: then you don't have a story. That's so easy to
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: fix in the three to five page treatment phase. And
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: that's what you need to work on. So it's the
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: third of three that I've mentioned, like tips for doing
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: a first draft, but I think it's the most important one.
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: You have to totally nail that treatment. You have to
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: nail your plot, get people totally hooked in the first
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: page of get people totally empathize with your protagonist, get
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: them totally invested in whatever struggle, whatever journey that protagonist
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: is going to go on and get them totally transfixed
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: by whatever the resolution is of your story. Once you
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: have that, then you have a blueprint for a first
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: draft and you can just go and poop out a
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: first draft. It doesn't even have to be that great,
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: but just use that as your blueprint and make sure
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: you write the first draft in accordance with that treatment
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: that you wrote. And you'll rewrite that first draft a lot,
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: but getting it done, like just cranking that out is
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: going to feel good. It's going to feel great. You know,
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: just have a screenplay finished, but it's going to be
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: a total waste of time if you haven't perfected that
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: treatment and nailed all your story beats in that treatment.
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: A good piece of writing advice that I was once
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: told was the biggest mistake that anyone could make when
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: writing a protagonist is to make them likable. What he
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: means by that is what usually happens if you say
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: to someone, make this main character likable … is, okay,
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: I want him to be a nice guy, and I
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: want him to be this, this, and this, and he
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: ends up sort of becoming almost like a stock character.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: This person's advice, it was Hal Crosham, he said instead,
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: make him just relatable, which actually ties into what you
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: and I were talking about earlier about in that Onion,
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: in the reference humor for that Onion article, that was
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: sort of a relatable incident that happens to a lot
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: of people. Absolutely.
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: Absolutely. I think that's very good advice. Anytime somebody says,
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: I wish the main character were more likable, that's code for,
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: I wish the main character were more empathetic. They don't
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: want to like the main character. They just want to
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: empathize with that person. They want to feel that person's feelings.
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: And relatability is a big way to do that. There's
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: a trend now in the entertainment biz to make really
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: unlikable heroes. It started with Clint Eastwood's Unforgiven. That was
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: a real big, I mean, it started with Macbeth, I guess,
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: but just recently, like so many people thought you had
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: to have a likable main character. But then Clint Eastwood
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: comes out with this movie where he's a heartless killer,
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: just shoots people and doesn't feel anything. And they were
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: able to make you care about that character. And people
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: were blown away by that. And that was, I think,
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: the late 80s, early 90s, I want to say. And
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: since then, it's been happening more and more. It's sort
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: of ballooned. And then you had A series like– who
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: was that– I keep spacing on the name of that
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: serial killer series where the guy from Six Feet Under
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: played a serial killer.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: Dexter?
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: Dexter, thank you. I never saw it. There's too many shows.
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: I can't see them all. Breaking Bad is a great example.
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: Here's a guy who just lies to his wife constantly,
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: kills people in cold blood, sells meth, and he's a schoolteacher.
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: And there's a very complicated matrix for how you make
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: a character empathetic and still give him negative qualities like that.
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: You can study Macbeth to figure it out. You have
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: to have a balance of good and bad qualities, and
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: a balance is key. So take the Breaking Bad example.
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: Walter White, yes, he kills people in cold blood, but
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: he has a son with cerebral palsy that he cares
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: deeply for. Those two things balance each other out. Yes,
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: he lies to his wife constantly. But he's doing this
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: to earn money for his family, to make sure that
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: his family is taken care of financially. So for every bad,
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: he's got an equal but opposite good. And that's so critical.
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: You read a lot of screenplays now where people are
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: seduced by that idea of the anti-hero or the bad
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: main character. And you realize you're reading it's like, I
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: hate this guy. I don't want this character to achieve anything.
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: And they're just not getting the balance right. So yes,
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: in the old days, I think the problem was too likable.
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: It's like boring to have some nice guy be the
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: main character of a movie. You have to have some
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: flaws so that the character is empathetic and relatable.
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: So as we talk about making him relatable, I've often
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: wondered if comedy– when there is going to be a
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: sort of character like that. I mean I know there
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: are characters who are sort of like– there's the archetypes.
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: There's sort of, you know, certain, certain archetypes that we
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: could argue about, but I often wonder, you know, if
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: there is a comedic movie that has been made yet
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: where the, the main character is just absolutely terrible, but
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: in a way we're still kind of trying to root
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: for him. Oh yeah.
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: It happens all the time. King of comedy is a
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: great example. It's, I think Martin Scorsese's best movie. It's,
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: it's so beautiful. And, Robert De Niro plays Rupert Pupkin,
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: the main character. And he's a kidnapper and a stalker
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: and just.
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: A total weirdo.
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: But you are absolutely rooting for him. And you totally
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: empathize with him. And you can feel the awkwardness that
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: he's causing in every scene. But you care.
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: It's amazing.
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: Another great example is the TV show Eastbound and Down.
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: That Danny McBride character is totally unlikable. He's a total
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: jerk who thinks he belongs back in the major leagues,
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: but he's stuck in this nowhere town or whatever. But
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: they do that whole balance of empathy thing beautifully that
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: you actually care about him. It does happen a lot.
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Eastbound and Down is a very good show. I
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: remember watching that first season and I was dying laughing. Uh,
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: it's that one scene, especially where, uh, Kenny saw his,
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: his stolen truck as he was driving down the, the, the, uh,
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: the road. And he makes that sudden U-turn and crashes
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: into that boat. And the other guy wakes up and
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: he's like, Oh my God, you just crashed this truck.
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah. It's great. Great show.
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: Uh, you know, and, uh, yeah, that, that, that is
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: a great show. Um, I still have to catch up
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: with the other seasons though. I'm not sure. Uh, I
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: know he was supposed to be in Mexico, but, uh, but, uh, But,
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: you know, and, you know, and, and I think, you know,
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: writing that first draft too, just to go back to that,
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: that last topic, you know, I think, you know, you
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: made a very good point there is just to bang
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: something out, how important it is to get something done. So,
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: you know, tying in with that question, Scott, do you
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: recommend sort of any screenwriting books, like maybe a save
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: the cat or a story by McKee or anything like that?
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: I mean, I, I think save the cat is great. I,
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: I recommend reading as many screenwriting books as possible. Cause
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: I think when you read a lot of them, you
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: pick up the, the same tips over and over and over.
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: So you realize, aha, these are really important tips because
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: everybody's recommending them because everybody kind of is going to
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: have their own approach. And, you know, you can sort
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: of buy into one person's approach or method and kind
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: of do it their way, like write a script in
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: 30 days and just do that. And that's fine. Uh,
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: But you're just going to get a more– a broader
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: base if you read them all. And they all have
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: a different goal. Like I think Save the Cat is
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: a great book for concepts. The Lennon-Garant book– I'm spacing
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: on the names.
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: How to– Make Movies for Fun and Profit.
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: Thank you. Make Movies for Fun and Profit is an
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: awesome book just about the reality of the industry. It
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: doesn't really have anything to do with how to write
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: the script or very little anyway. but I think it's
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: a great book. And obviously story is a classic. There's
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: one little book that's kind of, um, many people may
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: write it off as, um, uh, you know, a non-essential,
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: but I found to be really, really valuable among all.
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: And I've read, I've read, I've read all the screenwriting books.
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: Like anytime there's a screenwriting book, I will read it.
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: Cause I just, that's, I feel like that's really important,
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: but there's one little book, uh, is, uh, 500 ways
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: to beat the Hollywood script reader. Do you know that book?
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: No, I haven't seen, I read that book yet.
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: It's a great checklist, uh, for do you have X, Y,
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: and Z in your screenplay, things that you need. And
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: I think if you wrote a screenplay and went through
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: that book and checked everything off.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: And now back to the show.
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: And had a check yes on all her 500 things,
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: you'd be solid. So I thought that was a real gem.
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll have to check that out. I did hear
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: of the one, Your Screenplay Sucks, but here are the
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: ways to make it better. Yeah, I've seen that one.
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: One of my favorite screenwriting books is Dan O'Bannon. He
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: wrote Return of the Living Dead. He wrote Alien. He
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: actually has a screenwriting book out. Um, and, uh, it
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: was actually obviously published after he passed away by his widow. Uh,
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: but I think it is like he, he hits on
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: so many points and it really is, you know, is
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: invaluable because he's a guy who is, you know, one
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: out there actually doing it. And two, you know, he's
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: actually in the trenches trying to learn how to do
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: it even better. Yeah.
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: I feel like he wrote another book about like how
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: to make an independent film. Is that possible?
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it probably is possible. I'm not– I've never come
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: across it. But it is possible. I'll have to look
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: that up.
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah. No, it was somebody else. Somebody else connected with
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: George Romero and some of those independent– Oh, John Russo
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: wrote one. Maybe that's what I'm thinking of.
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, John Russo has a couple of those. Speaking of which,
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: I'm actually trying to get George Romero for my podcast.
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: That's great. Good luck.
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Thank you very much. You'll probably be like, what
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: the hell? Who's this kid? But but yeah, but I've
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: never actually and John has written a lot, too. And
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: he also used to do seminars and stuff about about
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: how to make movies on the cheap. I've never attended
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: any of those. But but I do want to mention
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: you just had a seminar writing, writing edgy comedy for
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: the writer's store. And I would say that was absolutely phenomenal.
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: Oh, thank you. That was a lot of fun.
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it definitely was. And I'm going to link to
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: that in the show notes, everybody. So you can catch
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: the replay of that if you'd like via the writer's store.
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: Great.
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: It's so funny because I think the day after that
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: seminar or webinar, I saw an article. I think it
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: was in The New York Times about how R-rated movies
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: continue to fail at the box office. There have been
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: two or three very high profile failures just this summer.
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: But everybody is trying to write one. Everybody is trying
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: to make one because when they hit, they do seem
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: to hit big. They're kind of like generation-defining or can
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: be generation-defining movies. But it's hard to do them. It's
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: hard to do them right.
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: So when you talk about writing R-rated comedies, I think
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: the one thing that is the problem with writing R-rated
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: comedies anymore– Besides the obvious because sometimes execs want movies
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: that are PG-13 so they can get the younger audiences.
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a big one.
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: But to be honest with you, Scott, I think the
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: biggest problem is now is with everyone being so sensitive
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: and hypersensitive in this country anymore, I think a lot
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: of writers– Or maybe not even their fault. Maybe it's
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: somebody when they're constantly making different passes of the screenplay
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: and maybe they're doing new pages and things like that.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: Maybe the edginess sort of gets taken out and its
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: place becomes something quote-unquote safe, if you know what I mean.
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think writers have gotten really good. They
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: used to be amazing like in the 50s and 60s
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: at doing subversive, edgy stuff. drama and comedy in a
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: way that censors wouldn't be able to tell that they
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: were doing something sexual or, you know, something gay maybe.
• 43:55
  Speaker 4: And then that sort of like went away in the
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: 70s and 80s. People would do whatever they wanted. R-rated
• 44:01
  Speaker 4: movies were huge. And yeah, now we obviously have gone
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: through this PC era in the 90s and much of
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: it is still with us. But when, you know, a
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: movie gets rated R, like people go in expecting it
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: to be a certain amount of raunch or whatever. I
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: just feel like sometimes the subversive is more rewarding for
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: the audience than the outright raunchiness. It's like when you're unrated,
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: you know, that's their big thing too. It's like they'll
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: release the PG 13 or whatever, and then they'll, or
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: the R, but then they'll come out on DVD with
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: the unrated version. Like they're clearly just trying to market,
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: you know, how totally uncensored it is or whatever. I
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: think the bigger thing– I mean it's an interesting opinion
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: that it's PC related. I think the bigger thing is
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: that people get uncensored all the time now on the internet.
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: So being uncensored and having swears and nudity is just
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: not as special as it once was. Like who cares?
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: You know what I mean? Like why is that something
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: we have to go to the theater and pay for?
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I see what you mean with that because I
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: know the internet has opened up a lot of possibilities.
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: I mean hell, I'm doing this podcast now because of
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: the internet. But I do– I think that definitely is
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: part of it. Obviously, there's a few other factors too.
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: There was a movie that just came out and I
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: can't remember if it's R or PG-13. But I just–
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: it just felt like at some point, somebody was swinging
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: for the fences and But by the time they got
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: to the end product of what we see on screen,
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: it was just like watered down and– I mean the
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: movie was almost unwatchable. And it was a recent movie
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: too and I was just– I was like no wonder
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: this– I think it bombed the box office but I'm
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: not 100% sure.
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: Well, there's– committee writing especially of comedy is never a
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: good thing. If there's not a strong person at the
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: helm with a strong comedic vision– that people respect, then
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: it's really tough to do a good comedy. Yeah.
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: Like Wes Anderson, like his comedies, I mean, you could
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: tell his comedy from any, you know, from, cause it's
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: his style of comedy.
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: Totally.
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: And, um, I mean, to me, I think his last movie,
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: Granby best hotel was his funniest movie to date. I mean,
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: that was, I mean, I think it was, he hit
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: a lot of different emotions, but, um, on a lot
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: of different levels, but I think that was, um, Phenomenal.
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: And it's good that there are people like that where
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: you can actually see a movie and can say, oh, well,
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: this is obviously Wes Anderson because it's quirky. It has
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: color patterns. And I think that's important because a lot
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: of times when I watch internet videos, it's hard to
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: tell one internet– you know, a prankster quote unquote from another,
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: I found out that that's actually a terminology I found
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: out today, internet prankster. Um, but you know, like the
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: guys who do look, they try to make a viral
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: video and it just, it comes off as weird. Uh,
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean? Like it just, I don't
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: get it. You know, the guys who want to get
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: beat up on camera. Um, I guess some people just
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: like a good train wreck on their own line. I
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: don't know. Yeah.
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: But you know, seeing somebody's personal touch you know, like
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: Judd Apatow is kind of an institution now in movie comedy,
• 47:27
  Speaker 4: but his movies all have a certain feel and it's
• 47:30
  Speaker 4: a good one. And Adam McKay and Will Ferrell have
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: the same thing. There's a certain Adam McKay, Will Ferrell
• 47:37
  Speaker 4: type of movie that, you know, you kind of know
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: what you're going to get with that because, and comedy
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: is very easy once you have a comedy persona that
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: people like, once you have a brand, like, then you're just, uh,
• 47:53
  Speaker 4: everything you do is gold, you know, and certain people
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: reach that point. Um, it's, it's, uh, life is pretty sweet.
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I, I concur. And, um, you know, I think
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: that's what a lot of filmmakers, um, should aspire to
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: is just trying to find their voice. And I think
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: finding your voice and your style, um, is something that,
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: you should, you know, if you can, the earlier you
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: can find it, the better. And I, and I know
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: that sounds obvious, but what I mean is if you're
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: going to make, you know, rather than take a gamble
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: on making a film that might cost a hundred thousand dollars,
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: maybe you should, you know, gamble on the one that
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: costs 10,000 and sort of get your feet under you,
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: so to speak.
• 48:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah. You should make a movie as cheaply as you can.
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: And I do think if somebody wants to write screenplays,
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: making a movie is a great way to learn how
• 48:43
  Speaker 4: to structure them because you'll learn so much about what
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: not to do probably on your first movie. So if
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: you can make it for $ 400 with your friends, great. Um,
• 48:54
  Speaker 4: I highly recommend that. Yeah.
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: And then, uh, one thing I found too, is if
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: you just post it on the internet afterwards, like YouTube, um,
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: or even Vimeo or what have you, um, you know,
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: that I, at least to get seen, like I made
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: a crappy, uh, uh, silent film as one of my
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: first films. And it's a, it's a story called the
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: roaring 21st century. And it's about a guy who gets
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: frozen during the stock market crash, uh in the 1920s
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: and he loses everything and he has himself frozen and
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: he comes out in present day uh and then he
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: kills himself when he finds out you know black guy's president.
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: Uh that sounds really interesting that's a that is that.
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: A short yeah it's a short i have up on
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: i on youtube that's great I actually– I know it's
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: not PC, but at least it's someone of a political commentary, right?
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: No, no. It's totally true to character. That's all that matters.
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: Well, if anyone is interested, I'll link to that in
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: the show notes. But Scott, we've been talking for about
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: 45 minutes now.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: And now back to the show.
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: You know, I wanted to just, you know, just ask
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: you in sort of closing, you know, is there anything
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: we didn't talk about or anything, you know, you want
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: to say just to sort of, you know, maybe a
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: final thought, just to sort of put an exclamation point
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: on the on this whole conversation?
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: I guess I would just second what kind of what
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: we were saying before about, you know, because I think
• 50:31
  Speaker 4: people who listen to this podcast are interested in being
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: better screenwriters and getting into the movie industry in some fashion.
• 50:37
  Speaker 4: The way to do that is to do the work,
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: like write a screenplay, make a movie, like just keep
• 50:44
  Speaker 4: doing it. I think a big mistake I see in
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: a lot of people trying to get into something is
• 50:50
  Speaker 4: that they're waiting for something. They're waiting to kind of
• 50:53
  Speaker 4: reveal their work or they're waiting for an opportunity or whatever.
• 50:56
  Speaker 4: Don't wait. Just start doing stuff. Make a movie for
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: as cheaply as you can. Write a screenplay. Because you'll
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: learn so much. Most screenwriters I know who sell screenplays
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: and make a living doing it wrote a dozen screenplays
• 51:10
  Speaker 4: before they ever sold one. So you kind of have
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: to plow through those first dozen. And most people who
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: make movies made movies independently or by themselves before they
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: ever got a professional movie job.
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's sort of like what Robert Rodriguez says. You
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: have a lot of bad movies in you, everyone does,
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: and you need to get them out of you as
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: soon as possible.
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: Exactly. Yeah, he's a great model. And if you need
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: a fire lit under you, read his book, Rebel Without
• 51:38
  Speaker 4: a Cause. Great, great book. Yeah, yes, it is. I'm sorry,
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: Rebel Without a Crew.
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was– I'm going to link that in the
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: show notes as well, but I was actually going to
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: say one thing is there's another book too that I
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: always recommend by somebody. Stu Makovits wrote a book, and
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: it was called The D.D. Rebels Guide. And it actually
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: is almost like a companion piece to Rebel Without a Crew.
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: And I'm hoping to have Stu on the podcast, but
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: it is great at just– piecing together different things and
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: how you can make a movie for cheap. And, uh, also, uh,
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: there's a great example of actually the, some people who
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: actually read the book actually made a movie using the
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: book ideas from the book and it turned out phenomenal. Um,
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: it's called, um, plot device and I will link to
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: that in the show notes too. It's a really cool
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: short film and it looks like, it looks like it costs,
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: you know, a couple hundred thousand to make, but they
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: made it for like 500 bucks. Wow.
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: That's great.
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: Um, you know, Scott, I just want to say thank
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: you very much for coming on the podcast. I know
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: you're busy with everything and, uh, you know, I'm always
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: thankful for anyone who comes on and, you know, is
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: willing to give me an hour of their time. Uh, why, why,
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: you know, bombard them with questions and, uh, you know, uh, but, um, Scott,
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: thank you so much. And I want to ask you,
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: this is where people find you at online.
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 52:56
  Speaker 4: Uh, first of all, thanks for saying so. It's my
• 52:58
  Speaker 4: pleasure to be here. Um, but you can find me, uh,
• 53:01
  Speaker 4: on Twitter at, at Scott Dickers. Um, ScottDiggers.com is my
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: website where my podcast is and my books. How to
• 53:10
  Speaker 4: Write Funny, as well as many other humor books, are
• 53:13
  Speaker 4: all on Amazon. And my movies are on Netflix. My
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: shorts are on YouTube. I don't really put my name
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: on that stuff. Sometimes I'll make something, just put it
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: up and just see how it does, which I really enjoy.
• 53:24
  Speaker 4: Kind of that anonymity, you know, just to see if
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: something will succeed on its merits. But, you know, if
• 53:31
  Speaker 4: you dig enough, you could probably find some of my stuff.
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: Excellent. And I will link to all Scott's social media
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: channels in the show notes as well. And if I've
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: come across some short films, Scott, I'll try to link
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: to those as well.
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: But Scott, thanks again for coming on. Everyone, you can
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: find me at DaveBullis.com and at Twitter, it's at Dave
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: underscore Bullis. And again, Scott, please, anytime you'd like to
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: come back on, the door's always open, my friend.
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: Thank you, sir. Thanks for having me.
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: Oh, my pleasure. And I want to wish you the
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: best of luck with The Onion and everything else you do. Again,
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: Scott has a podcast, The Comedy Insider Podcast, which I'm
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: now subscribing to as of today. And I'm sure it's phenomenal.
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: And Scott has some awesome people. He had Will Diankovic
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: on there. I saw that episode.
• 54:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and we really drill down into people's process and
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: how they do what they do. That's what the show
• 54:27
  Speaker 4: is all about. It's not really like a laugh. It's
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: not a joke fest. It's a really– process, um, oriented show.
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: It's sort of like what you said earlier. It's the,
• 54:37
  Speaker 3: the non-humor way to look at humor, I think is
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: that we're dissecting it. So, but yeah, I completely understand. Um,
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: you know, when, you know, when I've had other people
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: in here talk about comedy, um, You know, there is
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: about just join that process. And I think that is
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: so important, too, is actually get that process down and
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: sort of, you know, again, I want to avoid that question.
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: Where do your ideas come from? But you know what
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: I mean? But it always, you know, just getting beyond
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: that to like, you know, about finding a community of
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: presence or, you know, actually how they actually evolve an
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: idea and stuff like that. That's what, you know, the beginning,
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: the antithesis that I think is so important.
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what I love helping people do, like at
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: the Second City classes and with my book. Cause I
• 55:17
  Speaker 4: feel like everybody's got great comedy ideas in them. They
• 55:20
  Speaker 4: just don't know how to bring them out.
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And then, you know, that's a really great point. And, uh,
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: also everyone, I'll be linking to, uh, to Scott's book
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: in the, in the show notes, how to write funny. Uh,
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: Scott also has another book that I will also be, um,
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: linking to in the show notes, uh, about the unproduced
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: screenplay that he ended up pitching. Um, I think it's
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: called unproduced Scott.
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: Uh, it's called, uh, E day, the unproduced screenplay.
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: Yes, that's right. Um, E.J. 's own screenplay, so I
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: also linked to that in the show notes as well. Yeah, E.J.
• 55:49
  Speaker 4: Is a comedy about Eskimos conquering America. It's a war
• 55:55
  Speaker 4: satire that no one will ever make, so I figured
• 55:57
  Speaker 4: I'd just put it out in a book.
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a screenplay I heard about a while
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: ago called Sacred Cows, and it was written by Joe Esterhans.
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: And I always am waiting for that just to finally
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: come out in a book form and a kid book
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: form because that book– I mean that screenplay was legendary
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: in Hollywood for a while because Steven Spielberg actually signed
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: on to direct it. And I think someone, Steven Spielberg,
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: I don't know if it was his manager or agent
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: or somebody said, Steve, you can't direct this. There's a
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: guy that has sex with a cow in it. And
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: he said, well, you know, that's what the whole point
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: of it is. That's what the sacred cow is. For
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: those who don't know, I'll link to the whole story
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: in the show notes. But the concept is a presidential
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: candidate in the middle of the campaign race goes home
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: and ends up getting drunk in a bar and having
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: sex with a cow. And then the story breaks and
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: it's sort of like him dealing with this whole thing
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: of having sex with a cow. which Steven Spielberg was
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: actually signed on to direct this. That's crazy. Hey, you know,
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: that's a hard-ore comedy that probably, you know, people will
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: be like, what the hell are we going to go see?
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: A guy having sex with a cow? But who knows, right?
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and Steven Spielberg can kind of do whatever he
• 57:09
  Speaker 4: wants now, and nobody cares.
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, true. Very true. Scott, again, I want to say
• 57:15
  Speaker 3: thank you very much for coming on, and again, I
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: wish you the best.
• 57:19
  Speaker 4: Have a good day, sir. Thank you. It's my pleasure.
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: Oh, it's my pleasure, too. Take care, buddy. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: a great job on this episode. If you want to
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: head over to the show notes at IndieFilmHustle.com forward slash 879.
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: And if you haven't already, please head over to FilmmakingPodcast.com.
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: Subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: really helps us out.
• 57:43
  Speaker 4: A lot, guys.
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: Thank you again so much for listening, guys. As always,
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive. Stay safe
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: out there, and I'll talk to you soon.
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at IndieFilmHustle.com.
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: That's I-N-D-I-E-F-I-L-M-H-U-S-T-L-E.com.