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"Why We Believe?" with Professor Agustín Fuentes · The Smart Cookies podcast

• Zaza: Agustín Fuentes is a professor of anthropology at Princeton University. His research focuses on the bio-social, delving into the entanglement of biological systems with the social and cultural lives of humans, our ancestors, and a few of the other animals with whom humanity shares close relations. From chasing monkeys in jungles and cities to exploring the lives of our evolutionary Agustin Fuentes: Thank you. Zaza: examining human health behavior and diversity across the globe. Professor Fuentes is interested in both the big questions and the small details of what makes humans and our close relations tick. He has written many books but his latest one, I believe, will be of particular interest to us today. It's called Why We Believe Evolution and the Human Way of Being. In it he examines our evolutionary necessity to believe. Professor Fuentes, welcome to Euro Trash. Agustin Fuentes: Thank you. Thanks for having me here. I'm looking forward to it. Zaza: Let me just pick it up right where I left it off in the introduction. Let's begin with the big bombs. So is belief just a surprising kind of add-on of Homo sapiens, like an accidental byproduct if you will, or is it actually central to our quote unquote evolutionary success as a species? Agustin Fuentes: I mean, clearly it's central to our evolutionary success as a species, right? But let's think, what do we mean by belief? Belief is not just about religion or it's not just about commitment. A belief is this human capacity, right? The capacity to believe is the human capacity to look at the world around us, to take in all of our experiences, all of the things from our interactions with others, all of our cultural, historical, what have you, all the information we have, and blend it with our creativity, with our imagination, and develop, right? or understand or accept ideas, concepts, ideologies, and commit to them. Commit to them so fully and so holistically that they become our reality. That's what belief is. It's the ability to commit to something so incredibly, even something that's intangible, that we don't touch or feel or see, and believe it so much that it is our reality and it affects the way we interact with each other and with the world. Zaza: So it's not just abstract thinking, it's committing Agustin Fuentes: No. Zaza: to that abstract thinking Agustin Fuentes: Exactly. Zaza: and then bringing Agustin Fuentes: It's Zaza: it Agustin Fuentes: committing. Zaza: to its conclusion. Agustin Fuentes: Absolutely. So much so that it changes the way in which we see the world. So, for example, across the planet, people have different belief systems, but it's not just about religion. It's also about things like economics and love Zaza: course. Agustin Fuentes: and whatever, you know. We commit to these ideals and ideologies so much so that they're very real for us. And that's powerful. Zaza: But did it give us some sort of an edge when we were competing in our past with, let's say, other hominins or other animals Agustin Fuentes: I Zaza: even? Is that something that's useful to us, or is it just like, you know? Agustin Fuentes: So step back for a second. Everyone always tries to think about our past as filled with competition between us and other hominins, Zaza: That's Agustin Fuentes: us and Zaza: true. Agustin Fuentes: other groups, us and other animals. Zaza: That's Agustin Fuentes: Let's step Zaza: how I Agustin Fuentes: back Zaza: see it. Agustin Fuentes: for Zaza: This Agustin Fuentes: a second. Zaza: horrible, eternal, Agustin Fuentes: Yeah, Zaza: like Agustin Fuentes: it's Zaza: a Agustin Fuentes: not. Zaza: reality. Yes. Agustin Fuentes: No, Zaza: Exactly. Agustin Fuentes: in fact, most animals, yeah, there's a lot of competition out in the world, but most animals are like finding a way to live, finding a way to find each other, hanging out, sleeping, eating, right? Which can be challenging, but it's not all about fighting or competition. So let's step back and ask ourselves, What were the biggest challenges for our ancestors, right? Two million years ago, right, our ancestors were fairly small, hairless, fangless, clawless, hornless, ape-like things walking around on two legs who were pretty much naked and had a few rocks and sticks. But what else did they have? They had each other and had an incredible capacity for creative engagement, for collaboration. And so if over these last two million years, these groups of... earlier us Got together And committed to certain things believed fully in certain things had hope and dreams and imaginations And went after them you could see how that would give them a leg up Relative to a lot of other things ability to challenge or encounter new difficulties It also led a lot of those groups to going extinct, right? A lot of groups were like I know if we just cross that mountain, we'll be fine and then they all died So it's not belief is not all Good. Something that is very beneficial to us as a species doesn't necessarily mean it is always positive. It just means it provides a capacity, the ability to do something that is maybe not as common in other organisms. Zaza: You mentioned that some other, for example, hominins went extinct because maybe they had different ideas, different beliefs. Do we know for certain that, Agustin Fuentes: or Zaza: for Agustin Fuentes: different Zaza: example, Agustin Fuentes: capacities, Zaza: are Agustin Fuentes: different Zaza: different Agustin Fuentes: capacities, Zaza: capacities Agustin Fuentes: yeah. Zaza: for belief? So, for example, do we know if the Neanderthals had a similar approximate capacity for belief Agustin Fuentes: So. Zaza: as we do right now or we know nothing about that? Agustin Fuentes: I mean Neanderthals are us just a little different, right? I mean Zaza: Yeah. Agustin Fuentes: most people debate like what are Neanderthals? Neanderthals had art, had complex tools, had complex social lives, had complex foraging and hunting, had complex societies, interacted with one another across great distances, and had sex with our direct ancestors. So, you know, I'm just gonna say that Neanderthals are a slightly different version of us. Now, it's true there are no sort of Neanderthals around today, but but most humans on the planet are walking around with a little bit of Neanderthal DNA Inside them and who knows what kind of cultural Inheritances we also have so a lot of different populations have sort of disappeared or dissipated But we have to sort of think what that means because we Contemporary humans right the current understanding is that you and I and everyone watching or listening to this podcast Is actually a conglomerate of a whole bunch of populations right, that were slightly different over the last 500,000, 600, 700,000 years. So what's really interesting is that we're all blends of different ancestors and pasts, and that's actually really interesting. So yeah, other kinds of hominins did live, ones that weren't just like us, and they're no longer around. We're still around. So understanding why we're still around is very interesting, but we're also not just a line, right? for two million years. We're a giant bush of interactions and blendings of different peoples. Zaza: Yeah, I hosted an English anthropologist a while back, Chris Stringer. He works for the Natural History Museum in London. And I didn't know, but, you know, he clarified it for me that at one point there were at least five different hominins walking on this earth. And that blew my mind because we were taught in school, OK, first this one and then this Agustin Fuentes: Yeah. Zaza: one and then this Agustin Fuentes: Oh. No. Zaza: one and now us. Right. But we are the only ones left, though. I mean. Agustin Fuentes: We are the only Zaza: What? Agustin Fuentes: hominin left standing. Yep. Zaza: All right. You mentioned cooperation a little bit earlier. Not so long ago, I hosted Professor Edward Slingerland on the pod. Agustin Fuentes: Hmm. Zaza: I'm not sure if you've heard of him. He wrote a book Agustin Fuentes: Oh, Zaza: called Drunk and the Agustin Fuentes: yes, Zaza: Central Idea. Agustin Fuentes: of course. Zaza: Okay, you have. Agustin Fuentes: Ha ha Zaza: He explores Agustin Fuentes: ha ha. Zaza: the idea that it was the consumption of booze that gave us a sort of a nitro boost a little bit in an evolutionary sense because that allowed us to let our guard down and cooperate in bigger and more diverse groups. Now, Not that the belief in alcohol are mutually exclusive, but I mean, actually, I think he mentions in the book that even with the earliest record of human civilization we currently have, I think that's the Gubekli Tepe in Turkey, right? Religious rights were always, you know, they always involved getting hammered, like there's no tomorrow. So the often, the two often come together, don't they? Anyway, I just wanted to know what do you think of his idea? Agustin Fuentes: So let me first say that for everyone who's interested in human evolution, they should read Chris Stringer's work. It's really fantastic. And Slingerland's latest book and his earlier work is really fascinating. So people that you've got great people on the show, congrats. So let's think about that for a moment. So first of all, cooperation, right? Getting together, doing stuff together, collaborating, coordinating in ways that are pretty intense. That's our superpower, right? That's Zaza: Yeah. Agustin Fuentes: what humans really do, right? At the baseline. Now it's both good and bad, right? We cooperate for wonderful things, but we also cooperate to do horrible things, right? To win a war, right? You have to be the most cooperative side, right? You have to care most about each other to risk death and going out there. So anyways, cooperation is at the heart of everything that humans do. But so this whole idea about intoxication is related to sort of my arguments about belief, about creativity, about cooperation. So this basic concept of intoxication is not just about alcohol, but alcohol is. fairly common one around the globe and pretty early. And humans aren't the only thing that seek out fermented fruits to get high. There's a lot of other animals given the option, they'll go right for it. But with humans, what we see is these getting together for ritual or for other kind of purposes, this bonding, this sort of feeling, this sort of moment of transcendence, right? This sort of belief or experience of the more than the here and the now. Um humans do that and probably done this for a long time We have good evidence of cave art and even earlier forms of expression that reflect that but you know what? Humans also recognize that the physiology the mind the body when we alter it when we change it Sometimes we feel even more and so yeah humans reach out to alter themselves To be more in the moment or more engaged, uh, and that's actually another amazing cultural thing, you know humans on a regular basis poison themselves to feel stuff. Please don't get me wrong, I mean, a good vino or a great cerveza, a good alcohol is fantastic, but it is toxic, right? And humans develop this sort of dance with a wide variety of toxic substances, harmful to the body in some ways, but maybe. fruitful in others to the mind or the experience. That balance, that's us, right? That's a weird thing to do. Most animals, if they eat a ton of fermented berries and pass out, they don't eat any more berries for a long time. Zaza: Yeah, it's Monday today and unfortunately I poisoned myself a little bit on Friday evening and I still feel the consequences of today. You Agustin Fuentes: But Zaza: made a Agustin Fuentes: the Zaza: really... Yeah. Agustin Fuentes: social component of that is that's what's really fascinating. People always Zaza: I mean Agustin Fuentes: talk Zaza: I Agustin Fuentes: about Zaza: did Agustin Fuentes: the Zaza: have Agustin Fuentes: signal Zaza: fun, yes. Agustin Fuentes: and others talk about like the ritual aspect and that's fascinating the sort of mind expansion or sort of alteration of physiology for ritual and for things. But there's another thing too about alcohol and many other kinds of things, coffees, cigarettes even in some ways. This notion of social togetherness, this mutual engaging. And so I think we tend to think mostly of these sort of ritual or mind altering functions of a lot of these things. But in many cases, they're just add ons to the human social sort of thing. Zaza: Yeah, I remember in high school at a certain point, we just all had to start smoking collectively, you know, just to hang Agustin Fuentes: Thanks. Zaza: out during break, during recess and stuff. It was really weird. I don't think any of us really liked it per se. Agustin Fuentes: That's Zaza: I had Agustin Fuentes: it. Zaza: like terrible headaches. I felt nauseous, but I was still going along with it. I was like, I want to hang out with, you know, with my friends and we're Agustin Fuentes: Well, Zaza: all smoking. Agustin Fuentes: that's part of this whole belief and commitment and perception thing, right? There's cigarettes, I mean, smoking tobacco, while it might be enjoyable for some, it's actually a horrible toxin. It's really awful. And yet humans do it all over the place, not just for the physiology, but frequently for the social, right? Humans poison themselves socially in a wide variety of means. Why? Because that's part of what we do. We commit wholly and fully to the social. Zaza: I mean, it's also a little bit fun, Agustin Fuentes: Yeah, Zaza: to be honest. Agustin Fuentes: oh, no, no, Zaza: I'm Agustin Fuentes: no, the Zaza: not Agustin Fuentes: fun Zaza: advocating Agustin Fuentes: stuff. No, no, yeah. No, Zaza: it. I'm not advocating it, but you know. Agustin Fuentes: no, physiological enhancement is something that humans do all the time. Coffee, Zaza: Right. Agustin Fuentes: teas, alcohol, tobacco, you name it. There's all sorts of kinds of things. Cream puffs. You know, we are, humans are really sensory organisms and we really enjoy culturally modified means of messing ourselves up. Zaza: And okay, back to belief. You made a really cool video essay for Big Think. It's available on YouTube. The title is Why Sex, Food and Shelter Aren't Enough for Homo Sapiens. And in it, among other things, you say our hormones, our neurons, our muscles, the enzymes in our microbiome, in our guts actually respond to the way in which we believe the world is. OK, let's say I believe the world is a absolutely horrifying place in which nothing good ever happens. What exactly does that mean for my brain and my gut? I'm guessing Agustin Fuentes: So Zaza: nothing Agustin Fuentes: if you're, Zaza: particularly good. Agustin Fuentes: yeah, no, so if you're, let's Zaza: Okay. Agustin Fuentes: say, really paranoid or terrified or experienced Zaza: Yeah. Agustin Fuentes: horrible things, so your worldview is this very, very negative thing. First of all, just think about your muscles, right? So the way in which you're gonna hold stress in your body, right, is gonna be stressing the muscles, and you'll have a variety of things, catecholamines, cortisol, a variety of other hormones and different physiological sort of chemicals in your body are going to be challenging and pushing. on much of your muscle and muscle function and development, which is gonna pull out energy and other stresses from your body. So that's one thing, right? And it also might affect the functioning of your muscles, how effectively they function or not. Another thing is stress can alter this kind of perspective on the world that induces stress, can alter sort of what your gastric juices look like, sort of how your stomach is functioning, which can impact the lining of your stomach, which can actually have your body eat away at bits of the- stomach and intestine, which can then alter the actual make of the microbiome. And so those microbiome, all those little bacteria that live in our guts, help us not only digest food, but they also help our bodies function in great ways or function normally. And so when you alter your microbiome through stress, you radically murder billions of different bacteria in your system. And that actually changes your blood flow, the quality of your neurological functioning. your tastes, your sort of digestive patterns, all of those things that have a cascade effect on the rest of your body. So, you know, living stressed out in sort of a kind of moment of stress or negativity can have serious physiological, like body damage. Zaza: not to force you to become my personal physician, but that's exactly what kind of happened to me. I was in a really stressful period and I developed a horrible case of IBS Agustin Fuentes: Absolutely. Zaza: years ago. It's much better now because I feel better, but yeah, I recognize myself and what you were just saying. Like probably before that, I wouldn't have believed it. It would be like either you're healthy or not healthy. What does it have to, you know, stress, whatever. But now I'm like, yeah, you know, actually makes sense because I felt it. Agustin Fuentes: Yeah, Zaza: Ugh. Agustin Fuentes: and that whole ability, what we believe, how we perceive the world to be, how we perceive others, impacts our actual physiological functioning. That's why this whole idea of body and mind, this duality thing, sort of Descartes or what have you, no, that's completely wrong. We're always integrated 100% in our culture, our histories, our experiences, our blood circulatory systems, our hormone systems, our neurobiological systems, all of that's interacting. and it interacts in very complicated but very real ways. But as you said from your own experience, people know this, all humans know this. Like when you feel bad, right? Let's say you have a horrible stomach ache. That could be because you have an infection in your stomach or it could be because you're incredibly sad and you've just lost a loved one and your physiological system is responding to create and facilitate this kind of pain. Both are real, right? There's no such thing as in the head for humans, right? Because if it's in your head, it's also in the rest of your body. Zaza: I'm sorry this is going to be too much information, but I remember when we had the finals tests in high school and I just had like explosive diarrhea all the time. Agustin Fuentes: Yep. Yep. Zaza: And I never had that before or since. And Agustin Fuentes: that's it's actually Zaza: it was Agustin Fuentes: very Zaza: just so Agustin Fuentes: common. Zaza: specific because I was afraid and it's just, you know, I was just on the toilet all the time. Agustin Fuentes: So people underestimate, so there's this wonderful term put forward by Scott Gilbert, Lin Chiu, and another group of wonderful biologists, holobiont, right? That humans and many organisms were not just one self, right? We're actually multiple cells in one. So what that means is there's a bunch of other organisms that live on the human, right? In our microbiome, in our guts, in our mouths. in our genitals, in our ears, in our nose. There's actually millions, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of millions of bacteria in different spaces living with us. And if when we're living in sort of, I should say harmony with them, when their mix is good, we feel better. But when we stress out, when we change our physiological responses, that damages those others living as part of us, and that has huge effects. So. the explosive diarrhea, it's actually quite common to have digestive issues around stress. That's one of the biggest ones because we stress, we change the ecology, we mass murder a ton of our microbiome, and it comes back to kick us in the butt. Zaza: That just makes me think of those slightly irritating people. I'm sure we all know a few who are never sick. And then if you ask them, you know, in good faith, hey, bro, how come you're so healthy all the time? They say, oh, it's all in your head, you know. Agustin Fuentes: Yeah. Zaza: And pardon my French, but that always annoys the living shit out of me. First of all, I really, you know, I really think it's, I thought it's an idiotic statement and a bit of a narcissistic provocation as well, maybe maneuver, whatever. But it does actually... contain a grain of truth after Agustin Fuentes: Yes, Zaza: all Agustin Fuentes: a Zaza: maybe? Agustin Fuentes: grain. Yeah. Yeah, Zaza: Okay, I was Agustin Fuentes: it Zaza: hoping Agustin Fuentes: does. Zaza: you would say no because otherwise I have to apologize to a lot of people Agustin Fuentes: No, Zaza: but Agustin Fuentes: no, Zaza: you Agustin Fuentes: no, Zaza: said Agustin Fuentes: no. Zaza: yes. Agustin Fuentes: I mean, it could be just people being obnoxious, right? It could just be them. But, but in many Zaza: Thank Agustin Fuentes: ways, Zaza: you. Agustin Fuentes: you know, this this what's called the psycho neuroendocrine system, right? The brain, that sort of nerve system throughout the body and the hormone systems that respond to it, that's a critical part of everyday life of all we do. And so how you feel. how you think, how you perceive yourself to be, impacts the entire bodily function, which has all these cascade effects. So it's not the only thing, right? Diet, infection, genetic history, all of these things matter, but it is a significant part. How you perceive yourself to be, what state of mind you're in, impacts how your body functions. Zaza: this is going to be grossly oversimplifying things. But is the opposite scenario possible as well then? For example, if I start cultivating some sort of recklessly reckless optimism, if I really throw myself into it and start believing in it, would I actually hack my body into being this sort of a flourishing, I don't know, amusement park of a system all of a sudden? Agustin Fuentes: So the short answer is no, right? If that was Zaza: Oh gosh. Agustin Fuentes: true, then all of those gurus on the web and other places telling you how to be happy and happiness and wellness, that would all work. Zaza: right. Agustin Fuentes: Some of it works for the reason I just told you, right? Being in a good place. But being in a good place is not just thinking yourself in a good place, it's actually being in a good place, right? It requires friends and family and finance and living in a place that's not at war. It means avoiding racism, sexism, classes. I mean. The thing is, it's not up to you, right? It's up to you to try, but the social context. So there are many people who could have the best possible worldviews and perspectives available, and yet they're not gonna succeed because of the context, the ecology in which they exist. So it's never just us. That's the real challenge, right? Because if we're really interested in health and wellness, it's about societies, it's about communities, it's not about individuals. Zaza: That's refreshing to hear because you know the YouTube algorithm Keeps trying to convince me otherwise that it's all in my head and if I do some sort of a manifestation Everything is gonna be just fine as if climate Agustin Fuentes: Yeah. Zaza: change is good Just gonna disappear if Agustin Fuentes: Nope. Zaza: I think there is no climate change Agustin Fuentes: Right, you can feel as great as you possibly can, but as the sea levels rise a couple meters above your head, you will die. Zaza: there you have it, folks. Now, full disclosure, I'd say I'm a good old fashioned Eastern European lefty and an atheist, but I wasn't quite raised that way. I was brought up as a pretty liberal Catholic, but a Catholic nevertheless. I went to Bible school and Sunday mass and all of that. Also politically, I mean, yes, there were differences between my parents, but I wouldn't say either of them was a Marxist actually far from that. So I didn't absorb their belief systems. But on the other hand, I can't quite pinpoint the exact moment when I internalized beliefs that I consider my own right now. There was no Hollywood-esque moment of sudden clarity. It's not like I saw a baby cat being hit by a car and then realized God doesn't exist or something. It just seems I arrived to where I'm at in a completely organic way. And of course these beliefs seem the only possible ones to hold for me. So I think I'm asking a pretty big question. Why do we believe what we believe? Agustin Fuentes: So you just described it. I think that's really brilliant. Everyone wants this sort of Hollywood version of belief, like this moment of revelation. Ah, you know, like the cat being hit by a car, a ray of light, some amazing thing that catalyzes and verifies everything. That's actually not the way it happens. When those big events happen, you've already begun to believe those things and this just is confirmatory or what have you. But let me ask you the question. So did you grow up in Berlin? Zaza: No, I'm originally from Slovenia. Agustin Fuentes: Oh Slovenia? Okay, fantastic. Zaza: I actually was born in Yugoslavia, Agustin Fuentes: which Zaza: to be Agustin Fuentes: no Zaza: precise, Agustin Fuentes: longer exists. Zaza: which sadly for me no longer exists. Then grew up in Slovenia and then moved to Berlin 10 years, 8, 9 Agustin Fuentes: Okay. Zaza: years ago, something like that. Agustin Fuentes: So, think of that individual or personal journey, right? So, as you sort of grow up, you're growing up in a time of radical change, right? You're growing from your parents, you're learning from them, you're learning from your peers, but you're also in communities, societies, and nations. In fact, you know, the nation you were born into no longer exists. So, think about how those experiences radically influence the world views that you have, the perspectives. And then you go through that in your earlier years. And what age did you move to Berlin? Zaza: I was quite old already. I was, what, 28? Agustin Fuentes: Okay, but that's Zaza: I'm 37 Agustin Fuentes: still I mean Zaza: now. Agustin Fuentes: in the big part of human existence, right? So you're pretty formed you're on the way and then you go to berlin, which is an amazing international city But has this sort of uh sort of historic framing Of eastern europe the post sort of pre and post Zaza: right. Agustin Fuentes: soviet context and in fact just its long history As a center of sort of thought and engagement and so you move through life acquiring these different sort of Experiences ideas you meld them with your imagination creativity They meld you as you meld them and then you get to Berlin and you're actually exposed to even more stuff, right? And so this sort of construction of belief is ongoing But here's the way I like to put it together and I think I write this in my book People say you are what you eat. I mean that's sort of true, right? What you put into your body has a huge Zaza: I Agustin Fuentes: impact Zaza: hope not. Agustin Fuentes: on what's going on? But but I mean it's only mildly true, but what's really true is you are who you meet? That is, who you're around, the communities you grew up in or moved through, or the experiences those communities have, radically shapes, critically shapes the way in which you perceive and exist in the world, right? So you know, to think about the particular history you're discussing coming out of that, it's not surprising in any way, shape or form that you hold the general views that you hold now, given that historical frame and context. Now you could have had very different parents, right? or moved in Slovenia, you could have also moved in a very different group of folks. And you could have some extreme sort of, I would argue, right-wing views at this point, right? Or you could have come out a hardcore, one of the remaining hardcore Marxists on the planet. So, I mean, it really depends on all of the particulars of your history. But you called it right. It's all those different experiences that you had that shape you. And so people who grow up in a very homogenous... Landscape in exactly the same place you'd expect to see more homogeneity, right? More homogeneity more similarity between individuals in that space Whereas someone who grows up moving around the world or who undergoes radical change in the community in which they exist like the nation changes That that can alter the way you you you see the world or are So, I mean, there's no easy answer to why we believe but it has to do with where you are Who you're with and what happens in those communities? Zaza: I really do recognize myself in what you're describing. In particular, it made me think about the sense of humor Agustin Fuentes: Hmm. Zaza: and the people who became closest to me. I feel like we shaped each other's senses of humor a lot Agustin Fuentes: Mm-hmm. Zaza: and we used humor a lot. And now, as I'm getting older, it's harder and harder to bond with people that don't share this particular brand of humor, I suppose. Agustin Fuentes: And it's interesting too, as humans age, right, they become not completely, but more frequently, more sort of focused and centralized on particular sets of beliefs or particular sets of perceptions of how the world is. And that makes it more difficult to engage with people who don't fit into that, right, who don't. So the older we get, the harder it is, not impossible, but the harder it is to see the world through other people's eyes. Unless, unless. You travel enormously unless you get to see the world in multiple things. You just said you're in Japan right now. You've been in Berlin. The more one travels, and this is difficult, but the more one travels if they travel well in the sense of going and being places and respecting and being a little bit humble about what is right in the world or how to be, you see what I think is the most important thing about humanity, and that is there are multiple successful ways to be human. There are multiple successful ways to be human. And when you travel the world, you see that. You see people can be very different from you and still be very human, very successful. It can work. And once you recognize that, you're like, oh, wait a minute, you know what? I know what I believe. I like what I like, but it's not the only way to do it. Zaza: Oh, wow, that was beautiful. That was awesome. And nobody ever tells you, you know, traveling, go travel. Nobody tells you this is the antidote for, yeah, for becoming more. I don't know how should I put it closed or less. Agustin Fuentes: Just no, just becoming, Zaza: flexible. Agustin Fuentes: you know, yeah, less flexible, right? If you're forced to be with people around the world, you're like, Oh, wow. You know, people are amazing. I don't like all of it. I haven't liked everywhere I've gone, but I've learned everywhere that I've gone. And I've learned that different people can be in different ways. I mean, that's probably if I would say what's the most important education I've had. It's growing since I was a child, because I have family spread all over. And for a variety of other reasons, I traveled and I've never stopped. except for a couple years pandemic. But this really, this like 2020 and 2021 were the only two years of my 57 years of life. I think that I didn't travel thousands of miles. Zaza: You got me worried there for a second when you said that as we get older, yeah, we become a bit more rigid in our thinking, right? Letting probably fewer and fewer things in. And, you know, especially back home, there's a lot of people who become deeply religious as they get closer and closer to the end. And, yeah, I don't know. I kind of don't want that to happen to me, to be quite honest. But Agustin Fuentes: Yeah. Zaza: I can't completely rule it out, I suppose. Agustin Fuentes: It's it's actually a really really common thing and and yeah a lot of people like oh, I don't want that to happen Or that's but you know if that's what makes people feel good I'm you know, I who are we to not right because as you age as maybe you recognize Which is this power that humans have which is a horrible power Which is we know it's all going to end right for each one of us. It personally we know it's gonna end and that's a hard You know, that's the entire, you know philosophical discipline of existentialism is based on this reality and and We know that and so that's the human to be human is to live an existential crisis And however people navigate that, you know, I too I I can't imagine I would go in that direction, but Who knows if it makes someone happy and makes that part of their existence Easier, I don't think that's necessarily bad unless there's the correlate where because a lot of religious beliefs are incredibly racist or sexist Or pushing against others I would hope that part doesn't happen. If people just want to feel good about something beyond death, who am I to take that away from someone? Zaza: You mentioned ideology before, at the beginning. Do you make a distinction between belief and ideology, Agustin Fuentes: Yes. Zaza: specifically in the sense in which, you know, a lot of continental philosophers such as Slavoj Žižek define it, so not as a specific political system per se, but deeper as something that governs our desires and gives the meaning in the first place? Is there a difference between the two? Agustin Fuentes: It's funny to bring up G Jack who at one point I was a huge Zaza: I'm Agustin Fuentes: fan Zaza: of course, Agustin Fuentes: of Zaza: I'm Agustin Fuentes: and Right. Zaza: Slovenian. I had to, I Agustin Fuentes: Yeah. Zaza: apologize. Agustin Fuentes: Yeah. Yeah. I no no no I Huge fan of and not a fan as much anymore But because I think there's a lot of complexity there, but we can leave Zaza: Right. Agustin Fuentes: that for another conversation But he's right. I think ideology is not just a political leaning or a particular perspective on the world ideologies when they are part of belief systems are Real to those who hold them, right? They are They are driving perceptual, intellectual, psychological forces that shape the way in which we navigate the world. So ideology and belief aren't the same thing. Ideology is, I think, a very specific structure within belief, or it's a structure of assertions about particular ways of seeing the world. But when ideology is folded into a belief system, into one's own belief, which happens frequently, then it becomes overlapping, right? It becomes part of that belief, and it becomes real. And I think... That's one of the biggest challenges in the contemporary world. Thinking about political issues and complexities. People don't recognize that what people believe is real for them. And so people always think, oh, well, the other side is just wrong, right? They're, they're being asses. They just don't understand. It's like, no, no, frequently they believe what they're saying. And that's hard for people to understand. And I think that's one of the sort of roots for a political crisis is that people Zaza: We're gonna Agustin Fuentes: can. Zaza: come back to that. Oh yeah, for sure. Agustin Fuentes: Yeah. Yeah. Zaza: I just wanted to ask you before that, is it possible for humans to have no belief at all? It's not possible. Agustin Fuentes: It is that unless you're Zaza: What Agustin Fuentes: dead, Zaza: would that mean? Agustin Fuentes: it's impossible. We can't, our neurobiological, biocultural cells cannot exist without having certain preconceived and perceived notions of what reality is. And that is part of it. Now those beliefs change in structure, but, but humans can't function without commitments to the world of a particular way, every single human. grows up with commitments, with beliefs, with ways that shape the way they are and see the world. To be without that would be a... Well, you know what? Let me step back. Maybe people who have severe cognitive dysfunction or people who are extremely autistic don't formalize beliefs in the same way because of this sort of issues of relating to others. But I don't think the vast majority of humans in what we consider typical functioning can exist without belief. Zaza: OK, I just wanted to bring up the example of feral children who Agustin Fuentes: Yeah. Zaza: were, I don't know, raised by animals. If that's Agustin Fuentes: Well, Zaza: even a real Agustin Fuentes: but Zaza: thing, I think there were a couple of cases documented in history, Agustin Fuentes: there Zaza: right? Agustin Fuentes: are a few, there's Zaza: Or Agustin Fuentes: actually Zaza: is it dispute? Agustin Fuentes: a few cases. There's a few cases, I think it's very interesting. It's not like in the movies, the wolf child Zaza: Tarzan. Agustin Fuentes: and thing like, but there are, it's definitely not like Tarzan. But there are some cases and it does happen. But again, those children are human, but they're raised by other, they grow up in and around a community of other species. And so they take on as much as humanly possible from that other species, still having a kind of perception. belief, a system, just not the kind of linguistic political historical system that affects the beliefs of folks who grew up around other humans. Zaza: Have you seen The Big Lebowski? Agustin Fuentes: Yes, of course. Zaza: Okay, first of all, I realize nihilism can be a serious Agustin Fuentes: Yeah. Zaza: philosophical endeavor, and that in its proper sense, it doesn't actually mean an absence of belief. But in The Big Lebowski, of course, we have the three German nihilists who explicitly say they don't believe in anything. Walter, the dude's best friend, played by John Goodman, who disdains the nihilists' lack of any beliefs. then says something that at least for me is one of the funniest lines in film history. He says, excuse me, say what you will about national socialism, at least it's an ethos. So for him, even the Nazis believe, you know, Agustin Fuentes: Yeah. Zaza: even what the Nazis believed is preferable to no belief at all. So why is this idea of not believing in anything so jarring for us? Agustin Fuentes: Well, I think it's jarring when people don't understand what nihilism, I mean, let's just say this this artificial version of it in the big blue basket, which is everyone should watch that movie if you haven't seen it. But, so it's not nihilism really because they are organizing around a particular commitment to a cogent argument about the way the world is. It's a belief. It is absolutely a belief. It takes so much work to believe there's no belief, right? It's really hard and it structures your whole perception. It shapes the way you interact in the world So your true nihilism right is a very strong belief system by definition And so they say they don't believe in anything But actually that in of itself is a structuring perceptual landscape that they commit wholly and fully to That is by definition believe Zaza: All right, Captain Obvious to the rescue here. But we live in an era where social media allowed us to have a go at each other at all times. And it does seem like as soon as we're able to do so, we all want to be Mike Tyson on steroids, chewing each other's faces off. And, you know, civility has gone out of the window if it was ever there in the first place. In my case, I cannot, and now we come back to what I promised we're going to come back to. I cannot for the life of me understand, for example, a climate change denier. Someone who goes completely against our collective experience as we live it right now and against all established science and proclaims their own truth. You know, it just makes my blood boil and I have to write that sassy Facebook comment. I just can't help myself. I'm asking on behalf of my well-being. right now but how do we accept and transcend the fact that people have other sometimes even opposing views from us? Agustin Fuentes: I mean, there's three different things there. The first one is, and let me address this, and I think this is really important, everyone says how horrible social media and how awful people are. And yes, it does give access to a larger number, but the amount of people being asses on social media is a teeny, teeny percentage of the humanity out there. There are eight billion humans on the planet. There's probably a few million people driving 90% of the hate on social media. And that's I think something that's really important to remember a colleague and I did an analysis recently I published a couple years ago of Twitter sort of social networks and dynamics And yes, well a lot of people get caught in millions get caught in those millions are being directed by a very small sample Right. So I think that's important to remember now That's more than we would have had access to before in your community They're just art usually aren't that many jerks and now we have a global access to people who are obnoxious around the planet So that's one thing that we can put that aside. I just think I just want to remind people that the vast majority people on social media are not horrible They're actually not being it's it's people who start stuff And then the second thing that you said people who join in People because we are joint like humans are collaborative like when we agree with someone we want it like a spouse or agreement with that person We want to say yes, I agree. You're right. Even if you are being obnoxious. I believe you're right And I want to acknowledge my participation in this community. So we get this piling on effect, not so much because of personal malice, but because of this human sense of belonging and joining. And then the third thing, which is the most important thing, I think we have to divide up, right? Look, people who we disagree with sometimes actually believe what they're saying. They're not just wrong or lost. They're committed to a particular belief. So the question we have to ask in extreme cases like climate change. Is why how does someone fully and wholly commit to something that is not only wrong stupid Harmful and deleterious to the species, right? Why would someone want to take that position? Then we have to think about the details of why of how we believe What do people grow up around you are who you meet you are who you hang out with you are who you are influenced by And so we have to think about education location language historical framing Contemporary political and economic frames all of those things come together to facilitate Bad beliefs not false beliefs, right because the people believe in they're true for them But really inaccurate false beliefs and that happens even brought up national socialism, right? We have a very good example of a sort of a wave of commitment By millions of people in a horrendous horrendous horrendous manner and we're seeing that right now I mean the the climate denied climate change deniers are doing irreparable harm to the rest of the humans and to the entire planet, especially those with political power. And they're wrong. They're factually wrong, but they believe it. And so understanding how that belief happens. And so I think, and I'm rambling on here too long, but I think the Zaza: No, Agustin Fuentes: challenge Zaza: not at all. Agustin Fuentes: here, the challenge really is to recognize that some people, to recognize who's actually believing something and saying it and who's actually manipulating. So for example, here in the United States, globally, but in the US recently we have this Fox News thing, right? So Fox News, and there's good evidence to show it, intentionally, without belief, intentionally is making certain arguments or making certain suppositions and presenting them repeatedly to facilitate the belief creation in others intentionally for financial and political gains, right? So we know Tucker Carlson was lying to people. He doesn't probably believe most of the things he says. We have good evidence he doesn't, and yet did that regardless, with the intent of manipulating others into belief. And so there's where we have to target. I think my anger is not at some random person in, I don't know, Ohio or Florida in the United States who doesn't believe that climate change is happening. My anger is at the politicians, corporations, and academics who are creating the space for that kind of belief to emerge. Zaza: My problem is, because I'm doing this podcast, my problem is with a lot of these really popular podcasts that have the attitude of, let's invite everybody and then hear them out. And I just don't understand, because I think this legacy media is slowly on its way out, especially with younger people. But these new forms of media are widespread. I think Joe Rogan. now has more listeners than CNN and stuff. And I like a lot of his stuff, but a lot of his stuff is also like this. Let's invite a climate change denier, and then maybe he has some interesting ideas. And I understand why you would do this, but at the same time, I really don't also. It's like Agustin Fuentes: Yeah. Zaza: inviting. a murderer to explain also his point of view or something. You Agustin Fuentes: Yeah. Zaza: know, this fake false objectivity seems even more harmful. Excuse me. Then I don't know, Tucker Carlson, Carlson, because you would expect it from Tucker Carlson. Agustin Fuentes: Well, I mean, what you just said there, fake objectivity, and it's really this notion of two sides. Every story has two sides. That's not true. Some stories have 50 sides. Some only have one. Zaza: Right. Agustin Fuentes: And I think we have to grow up and recognize that. And I think the United States is doing harm to the planet here with this notion of individualism. And everyone's opinion is equally the same because we're all individuals and we can own our guns and do whatever we want. And I think Joe Rogan is a perfect example of that. Right? He says, well, I'm just giving voice. I'm just listening to what will make, you know, sell and people. But he doesn't. He favors right wing. He favors racists and sexists and climate science deniers and anti-vaxxers. I mean, you know, it's a little terrifying because of the power that he has. You know, I remember watching him on a TV show years and years ago, and it took me years to realize that the Joe Rogan of the podcast was the same. or on this TV show where he played a handyman on a radio news channel. But you know, whatever, I don't know him. I don't know who he is as an individual human being, but I do know that his many of the guests on his podcast and what he promulgates there is horrifically dangerous and is harming people. The same with someone who I had respect for before, I'm just blanking on his name, was a comedian. Made the movie Idiocracy. What is this name? Zaza: Ricky Gervais. Agustin Fuentes: No, not Oh Ricky Gervais made it the artsy right now. No Ricky Gervais. I still like no It's a bill mauler bill maher Zaza: Right, Agustin Fuentes: in the Zaza: right. Agustin Fuentes: US. Zaza: He's Agustin Fuentes: Yeah. Zaza: also Agustin Fuentes: Yeah. Zaza: a Agustin Fuentes: Yeah Zaza: talk show host, isn't he? Agustin Fuentes: Yeah, talk show host. Yeah. Yeah, and he's doing the same thing. You know, he just had Elon Musk on The other day and they were just be moaning about their major like challenge or crisis to humanity is wokeness Right that woke people are destroying everything and this is when right-wing governors and legislatures are canceling tenure burning books and firing professors and and Scientists like they're like, oh these academics like me who are lefty and woke That's the real challenge not people who are actually doing direct Demonstrable harm to the entire system. And so I have to ask, you know, why what why are you so upset because some you know? left-leaning scholar is arguing from a database perspective about certain things, whereas you're not losing your mind because the governor of Florida is rejecting tenure and falsifying data. Anyways, that was a little rant. I'm sorry, I went Zaza: No, Agustin Fuentes: off there. Zaza: no, Agustin Fuentes: But Zaza: no, Agustin Fuentes: it's very annoying Zaza: please, Agustin Fuentes: because these Zaza: yeah. Agustin Fuentes: people know they're smart people, right? Joe Roganot is not an idiot. I'm sure he's quite intelligent, as so is Bill Maher and these others. But they're intentionally fostering one specific way to think. which is facilitating belief in a lot of people who vest a lot of trust in them and they're doing harm. Zaza: But how do we go forward then? You know, they believe this, we believe this, I mean... since it's Agustin Fuentes: armed Zaza: really Agustin Fuentes: people, Zaza: complicated. Agustin Fuentes: armed people, armed people with the capacities, right? Education systems, right? So Zaza: Right. Agustin Fuentes: the education system in the United States 50 years ago was one of the best in the world. Today it's one of the worst. You know, I visited schools in Berlin, sort of the grade schools and whatever, and they're very good. A lot of the ones I saw, you know, you even though you might have a wide range of problems in Berlin, across Germany for sure, but you also have basic reading skills. basic capacity to sort of move between different kinds of information and so and you see this in different parts of the world Huge inequities in the basic training of humans, right? We need to be trained You can't just walk into this world You have to learn how to read you have to learn how to critically read you have to learn about history You have to sort of learn about health and society Those things are important. So I would argue and the United Nations and many many many incredible scholars Nelson Mandela heroes argued that, look, you're not born hating. You have to learn to hate, right? But you also learn to love and you learn to understand. And it's through education, it's through your community and your schools and your family that you learn things. And that's where we need to focus. You know, these giant, I have very little faith in politicians at the moment. I have much more faith in people. Zaza: then you have a little bit more hope than I do. I hope I catch some of yours. Since we're here, there's a lot of talk of what is natural these days, speaking of YouTube algorithms again. And natural is, of course, always what aligns with a certain political agenda. On the other hand, in one of your talks, you said the following, which I thought was really interesting. Anyone that says that things are the way they are because of human nature doesn't know what human nature is Could you unpack that for us a little bit? Agustin Fuentes: Yeah, so there's no such thing as human nature. There are human natures. There's many successful ways to be human. So there's not one thing, one consistent pattern. So what do humans do? We cooperate, we're incredibly complex socially, we coordinate, we're incredibly cognitively complex. There's a whole bunch of things that are patterns. But within those patterns, there's many ways to express them or many ways to be, many ways, many cultures, many languages, many ways to express sexuality, many ways to express sort of ideology, all of those things. And what we need to understand is it's not like Jekyll and Hyde, or it's not like this Hobbesian notion. If you strip away culture of an ear, at the heart you have the root, which is this selfless brute, or if you're a Rousseauian, this sort of, you know, lovely savage. The problem is, is that we're never one thing. We're much more dynamic than that. So when people say human nature says X, right, biology says X, you know, history says X, that's the explanation. They're wrong, right? It's never just one thing, and it's never simple. So if you say human nature does this, I will say, okay, what about this case and this case and this case and this case and this case that don't fit your definition? What you need to understand is there is not just one successful way to be human. There are parameters, right? There are certain ranges, right? Humans are not about to sprout wings and fly, right? That's not going to happen. But barring that, humans can do a lot of things, a lot of, they can resolve or answer a lot of challenges in a variety of different ways. And I think we need to understand that. And that way and we all know it like look around your community There are people different body sizes and shapes. There are people different sexualities There are different desires and dreams and goals and and that's okay You know, it's not there is not one best or even normal way to be human Zaza: All right, time is upon us. Unfortunately, I could talk with you for a very long time. This podcast title is Euro Trash, so I have to ask you something even more trashy at the end. Agustin Fuentes: Great. Zaza: So Professor, you also wrote a book called Race, Monogamy, and Other Lies They Told You. We don't have time to tackle all of those, so I'll just ask. For those of us who are married, how big of a mistake did we make? Agustin Fuentes: Okay, when I say monogamy is a lie, I meant the idea that it is human nature to be monogamous or that marriage is some biological inherited thing. Marriage is a political, emotional, romantic, love-based economic necessity. Who knows? There's a wide variety of reasons why people bond together. What's really important is the pair bond, is the relationship that individuals have. And humans are really good at pair bonding. We bond with others incredibly tightly. Not just one, sometimes three or four or five. Sometimes it involves sex, sometimes it doesn't involve sex, sometimes they're heterosexual, sometimes they're homosexual. There's a whole bunch of complexity, but humans have this amazing ability to fall in love and to commit to one another, and that's incredible. All the other stuff, the cultural stuff about marriage and economics and politics, that actually we've just layered on, and that's fine, right? Everyone has their own decisions about that, but it's about the relationship, and humans are the super relationship-ers, right? We're really good at having all of these really complex bonds and connections. I named the title race and argument otherwise I told you because look the the way people think about the nature of race and racism Of love and sex of marriage of aggression and violence Most of those ways people frame them are wrong. They're too simplistic and they're too much of one nature So I just wanted to challenge the myths but no it's it's not a mistake Unless you know, it doesn't work out for you then maybe it was but no that the falling in love Romantic relationships and the commitment to one another is an amazing thing that humans can do. And we can do it in beautiful ways. And I love that. That gives me a lot of hope about people. Zaza: By the way, you're also a primatologist, right? Agustin Fuentes: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Zaza: Do these so-called smart apes, do they also have something similar? Agustin Fuentes: That's a whole other conversation. So Zaza: Okay, Agustin Fuentes: yeah, we're primates Zaza: fair enough. Agustin Fuentes: know social relationships and bonds Are they are some of the most important things humans do it distinctively? But you know it so to wolves so to some primates so to some cetaceans. There's there's a real Incredible world out there of unbelievable relationships between organisms, especially in mammals birds, too So that's a whole nother conversation. We think we're so amazing. I tell you some other animals out there put us to shame in their amazing bonding capacities. Zaza: Yeah, all right. We talked a lot about the algorithms and lately, at least on Instagram, a lot of these short videos, I liked a couple of these cute animals doing silly things and I'm getting more and more of these and I'm becoming addicted and Agustin Fuentes: They're very Zaza: there Agustin Fuentes: addictive, Zaza: you have it. Agustin Fuentes: but they're very addictive because you're a mammal. We're mammals and we see this stuff. We see like the dog look up with the eyes or like the dog and the goat play together or whatever. Any of those things you're like, ah. We have these cultural things about it, but we also recognize mammalian joy. When we see joy in another mammal, we feel it. It communicates to us because we have the same kind of limbics as physiological system. And so there's something particularly joyful for a human. to identify joy in another species. And I think it reminds us of places that's in connection with the world in some ways. And I think that's why those animal videos make us so happy. Zaza: Professor Fuentes, this was absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much for taking the time. I know you're seriously busy. Where can people find your work? Your Agustin Fuentes: I mean, Zaza: books are Agustin Fuentes: I'm Zaza: sold everywhere, right? Agustin Fuentes: yeah, my books are sold everywhere a couple languages English Spanish Romanian Chinese Korean I think If it isn't a language that you'd like let me know and I'll try to push them in that direction too. Zaza: Well, Slovenian Agustin Fuentes: You can Zaza: of course. Agustin Fuentes: yeah How a slow video it isn't in Slovenia, right? But so my books are out there My articles and blogs and videos are readily available. Please follow me at anthro fuentes on twitter. That's where I do a lot of my I think best science communication. I enjoy that. And yeah, read, listen, listen to podcasts like this. It's worth the while. Zaza: This was a, seriously, this was a privilege. Thank you so much. Agustin Fuentes: Thanks for having me.