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Being Proactive in Couples Therapy with Kendra Capalbo · The Trauma Therapist

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  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Theapists podcast. My name is gomcpherson.
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  Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who dedicated their lives to helping
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  Speaker 1: those who have been impacted by trauma. Here we go,
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  Speaker 1: So five two one, our folks, welcome back to the podcast.
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  Speaker 1: Very excited to have as my guest today, Kendra Capabo.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you, so happy to be here. Excited, awesome.
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  Speaker 1: So, Kendra is highly sought after couple's therapists, working with
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  Speaker 1: some of the wealthiest and most accomplished individuals in the
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  Speaker 1: Boston area. While these clients often present polished and perfect
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  Speaker 1: lives to the outside world, they trust Kendrick to help
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  Speaker 1: them navigate the complexities and hidden struggles that exist beneath
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  Speaker 1: the surface of their relationships. Okay, short and sweet, there's
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  Speaker 1: it's the polished and perfect lives. I mean, come on,
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  Speaker 1: all right, before we get into that, let's start out
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  Speaker 1: with you. Where are you from? Originally? I share with
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  Speaker 1: all listeners where you are currently.
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  Speaker 2: So I'm originally from Rhode Island, grew up raised and
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  Speaker 2: you know, went to school there through high school and
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  Speaker 2: then went to college at Boston University. From there, I
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  Speaker 2: did a little stint with the Peace Corps in Kingston, Jamaica,
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  Speaker 2: which is interesting experience to say the least. Came back
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  Speaker 2: to Rhode Island, went to Colorado for a little while,
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  Speaker 2: and now after Rhode Island, Massachusetts, I'm in Connecticut.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, So I'm noticing behind you you got these plates
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  Speaker 1: cracked put together with what appears to be gold, which
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  Speaker 1: is also echoed on your website. Right now, correct me
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  Speaker 1: if I'm wrong here. That's what the Japanese is it konsugi?
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  Speaker 2: Or what is the Japanese art of kinsugi?
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  Speaker 1: Knsugi? Okay? So why is that important to you?
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  Speaker 2: Well? If I get sure? Yeah, if I could share
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  Speaker 2: a quick client story, I'd worked with a couple for
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  Speaker 2: a while. They had gone through some intense trauma in
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  Speaker 2: their relationship. There was a five year affair. They had
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  Speaker 2: done tremendous work, and at one point they said, you know,
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  Speaker 2: would you be willing to these are the things you
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  Speaker 2: don't admit out loud, but would you be willing to
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  Speaker 2: judge our Christmas presence? And of course I should have
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  Speaker 2: said no. What I said sure, And I remember thinking, like,
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  Speaker 2: you know, her love language was gifts and he was
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  Speaker 2: kind of the gift card guy. Right, So I was like,
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  Speaker 2: I don't really know how there's going to be much
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  Speaker 2: of a competition, but I was intrigued. So they came
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  Speaker 2: back to the to the session after they had exchanged gifts,
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  Speaker 2: and she sat down and looked at me and she
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  Speaker 2: said I lost. I said really, And she told me
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  Speaker 2: what she had gotten him, and it was a very thoughtful,
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  Speaker 2: wonderful gift. And then he shared that he had had
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  Speaker 2: a vase made for her in the in the art
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  Speaker 2: of kinsugi. So that was my first introduction to do it,
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  Speaker 2: and you know, I started reading about it. I thought
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  Speaker 2: it was beautiful and just all that it symbolizes in
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  Speaker 2: terms of taking things that are broken, putting them back together,
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  Speaker 2: and not just putting them back together, but putting them
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  Speaker 2: back together in a way that makes them stronger and
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  Speaker 2: more valuable and more beautiful, and highlighting in essence the
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  Speaker 2: fractures instead of trying to ignore them e pretend like
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  Speaker 2: they don't exist. And so I really kind of adopted
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  Speaker 2: that as my kind of philosophy of couples there.
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  Speaker 1: Hm, wow, very cool, what a great intro. So let's okay,
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  Speaker 1: how did this start for you? How the heck did
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  Speaker 1: you get into this this field and specialization.
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  Speaker 2: I took the long path here. So I originally wanted
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  Speaker 2: to be a veterinarian. I mentioned I went to Boston University.
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  Speaker 2: I was supposed to go to Virginia Tech, and you know,
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  Speaker 2: as the universe works, I kind of freaked out decided
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  Speaker 2: last minute I didn't want to go there. Ended up
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  Speaker 2: at bu Greade School. But culture shock for me. I
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  Speaker 2: had come from a school where I graduated with thirty nine,
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  Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, I'm thrown into you know,
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  Speaker 2: a biology class of eight hundred as pre med and
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  Speaker 2: because I had applied so late, I ended up in
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  Speaker 2: like upper classmen housing, so it didn't really meet any
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  Speaker 2: classmates and basically stopped going to class, which I don't advise.
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  Speaker 2: It's not a not a great freshman year experience. But
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  Speaker 2: when I realized that the chances of getting into vetinary
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  Speaker 2: school were like slim to none, after my first semester,
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  Speaker 2: I transferred into psychology. And then I had a supervisor
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  Speaker 2: after the Peace Corps that was a social worker, and
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  Speaker 2: she you know said, this is like a really broad field.
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  Speaker 2: So I decided to get my master's what social work? Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: social work. I think she sort of swayed me away
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  Speaker 2: from psychology, just sort of saying that there. You know,
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  Speaker 2: there's so many options as there are for psychology as well,
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  Speaker 2: but like you know, I didn't re you know, what
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  Speaker 2: I wanted to do at the time. I thought maybe
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  Speaker 2: work with kids, and I ended up doing I went
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  Speaker 2: to grad school and he did an internship working with Parolis.
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  Speaker 2: My dad had worked in a prison as a correction officer,
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  Speaker 2: and I thought that this is interesting, so I did an
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  Speaker 2: internship to internships, as a matter of fact, working with
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  Speaker 2: Paroli sex offenders. But in that time in grad school,
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  Speaker 2: I also did a like a certification program which I
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  Speaker 2: did not complete at the time, for marriage and family therapy,
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  Speaker 2: and I loved it, but I started put it on
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  Speaker 2: the back burner.
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  Speaker 1: Hang On, hang on, hang on, Why did you love it?
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  Speaker 1: What about it?
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  Speaker 2: I don't I just I don't know it was it
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  Speaker 2: just intrigued me, like I think that you know, our
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  Speaker 2: our romantic relationships are so complex. The family therapy stuff
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  Speaker 2: overwhelmed me, if I'm being honest, Like that was never
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  Speaker 2: felt like something that was felt like too much for me.
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  Speaker 2: But just having a couple in front of me, right,
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  Speaker 2: like the idea that you can't hide sort of right,
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  Speaker 2: Like you go to individual therapy and you bring what
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  Speaker 2: you bring and your therapist has that information and that
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  Speaker 2: information most times that's all they have. And with couple's therapy,
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  Speaker 2: you know, you can't hide, like you can't say like, oh,
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  Speaker 2: everything's fine, because there's another person unless they're like agreeing
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  Speaker 2: to sort of hide things like you have another person
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  Speaker 2: that's bringing things to the table and seeing their interactions
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  Speaker 2: in real time, right, And so I always understand that
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  Speaker 2: they're usually I hope a little bit diminished from what
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  Speaker 2: looks it looks like at home. You know, they're putting
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  Speaker 2: a little bit of a show on for a therapist,
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  Speaker 2: I think. But there's just something about watching the tapes.
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  Speaker 2: There's a lot of Gotman stuff. At that time, a
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  Speaker 2: lot of the training was around the Gotmin method and
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  Speaker 2: just watching the tapes and the observations that they were making.
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  Speaker 2: I just it's something about it was really attractive to
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  Speaker 2: me energizing. But I didn't do it right away. I
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  Speaker 2: ended up taking a job at a prison where I
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  Speaker 2: worked for fifteen years. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's where.
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  Speaker 2: In Rhode Island. So Rhode Island's systems because it's just
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  Speaker 2: such a small state it's kind of like one one system,
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  Speaker 2: so you're assigned to a building, but you technically work
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  Speaker 2: in all of them, so it's not like other states
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  Speaker 2: where there's you'd be very like particular about where you're working.
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  Speaker 2: I kind of worked in all the buildings, but ended
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  Speaker 2: the career in the maximum men's security so for fifteen years.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, what an experience. What were some of your takeaways
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  Speaker 1: from that?
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I think interestingly, like I think one of
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  Speaker 2: the things that's that's really interesting about my journey, and
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  Speaker 2: like I mentioned the Peace Corps, whereas you know, which
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  Speaker 2: is working with some of the just people with the
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  Speaker 2: just such tragic lives and such poverty, like poverty, like
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  Speaker 2: it's just unimaginable poverty nothing I had ever seen and
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  Speaker 2: probably will ever see again. And then working in the
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  Speaker 2: prison and sort of all the trauma that exists in
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  Speaker 2: that environment, and now working like, you know, kind of
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  Speaker 2: with on some levels what looks like the complete opposite
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  Speaker 2: in terms of the clientele I have now. But it's
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  Speaker 2: really interesting is all the like threads that like run
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  Speaker 2: through because at the end of the day, we're just
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  Speaker 2: humans and we're just like moving through the world, you know,
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  Speaker 2: with our own narrative of our own experiences and trying
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  Speaker 2: to do the best we can. But it was it
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  Speaker 2: was an incredible experience. I think I learned a lot.
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  Speaker 2: I think I learned a lot about myself. I think
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  Speaker 2: I learned a lot about myself as a therapist in
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  Speaker 2: that environment. It really pushes you, I would say, in
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  Speaker 2: ways that maybe other jobs don't or couldn't.
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  Speaker 1: So, yeah, you at some point switched, if we can
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  Speaker 1: use that word, into specializing and working with couples. You
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  Speaker 1: mentioned the Gottman method. Can you just give us a
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  Speaker 1: brief thumbnail for our listeners of what that is?
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  Speaker 2: So I usually describe it to client when i'm you know,
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  Speaker 2: kind of explaining the methods I use. As the more
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  Speaker 2: pragmatic approach, I lean more heavily on emotionally focused couple's
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  Speaker 2: therapy at this point in my career. The Gotment method is,
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  Speaker 2: you know, sort of very like pragmatic strategies of like
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  Speaker 2: ways to communicate, I would say, likes the primary where
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  Speaker 2: I use it, you know, ways to manage conflict, recognizing
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  Speaker 2: that conflict can't be avoided. I think too often in
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  Speaker 2: our relationships, you know, we sort of have the idea
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  Speaker 2: that like a healthy relationship is one where there's no
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  Speaker 2: fighting and there's no arguing, and I just think that
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  Speaker 2: that's not realistic. And the goal, you know, and the
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  Speaker 2: Gotment's talk about a lot is the idea of managing conflict,
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  Speaker 2: being able to like communicate about issues as they come
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  Speaker 2: up in a way that leave space for you know,
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  Speaker 2: both partners experiences and feelings. So it's just a lot
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  Speaker 2: of you know, how to frame conversations, how to you know,
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  Speaker 2: talk about like perpetual problems that come up in the relationship,
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  Speaker 2: how to structure conversations, and then a lot of the
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  Speaker 2: connection pieces of rituals of connection, and you know, really
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  Speaker 2: making sure to keep knowing each other and being curious
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  Speaker 2: about each other's experiences and not just assuming that because
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  Speaker 2: you know, you knew knew your spouse when you first
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  Speaker 2: met that you still know then that we grow and
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  Speaker 2: learning about each other, you know, through that whole process.
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  Speaker 2: So that's kind of the summary I usually will give clients.
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  Speaker 1: Cool, Okay, I appreciate that. So how did you morph
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  Speaker 1: into working with them?
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  Speaker 2: So I started just doing private practice on the side,
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  Speaker 2: just to get a taste of working with clients that
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  Speaker 2: were really interested in working with me. Because in the
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  Speaker 2: prison it's a lot of a lot of times, especially
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  Speaker 2: towards the second two thirds of my career, it was
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  Speaker 2: very much dictated by the prison system. So I had
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  Speaker 2: to see who I was told to see rather than
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  Speaker 2: even sometimes who was asking to be seen. So I
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  Speaker 2: started doing that to just kind of kind of tap
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  Speaker 2: into something that felt unfulfilled in the prison war in
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  Speaker 2: the prison system, and so I started doing just private practice,
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  Speaker 2: a lot of individual work, but started you know, getting
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  Speaker 2: I handed a few cases that were with couples. I
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  Speaker 2: always left energized. I always left those that everybody else
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  Speaker 2: would talk about who drained they felt from a couple's therapy.
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  Speaker 2: I felt like energized, but also recognized didn't really know
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  Speaker 2: what I was doing. It's just a different you know.
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  Speaker 2: I had that sort of limited experience of training when
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  Speaker 2: I was in grad school, but really knew I needed
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  Speaker 2: a lot more to be confident in that field. So
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  Speaker 2: I sought it out, strained, finished the training and the
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  Speaker 2: Gotman method, completed the e f T training, have done
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  Speaker 2: a slew of other trainings along the way, and just
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  Speaker 2: decided like, this is what I'm passionate about, and why
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  Speaker 2: do anything else If you could do what you love
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  Speaker 2: all the time.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I love that that you were like
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  Speaker 1: energized from that. That's that's that's so odd when you're
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  Speaker 1: doing something and you experience something and you get energized
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  Speaker 1: from it. So when I was seeing clients and pursuing that,
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  Speaker 1: I really liked working with couples too. Now I want
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  Speaker 1: to dive into a little more about what energized you
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  Speaker 1: for me. You know, you talked about like you didn't
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  Speaker 1: use this term, but you're in the moment in a sense, right,
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  Speaker 1: you can't hide. And I loved kind of facilitating that
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  Speaker 1: discussion and more than the discussion, just the the facilitating
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  Speaker 1: the in the moment relationship and seeing and just observing that.
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  Speaker 1: But what was it about it for you that just
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  Speaker 1: so energized.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's a lot of the same.
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  Speaker 2: There's just something you know, it's hard, it's really really
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  Speaker 2: challenging work, and there's something there's something humbling about being
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  Speaker 2: invited into someone's most intimate parts of their of their
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  Speaker 2: own lives. They're you know, that sort of a relationship
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  Speaker 2: and bearing witness to it. And I often say, like
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  Speaker 2: I think that the job a lot of times of
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  Speaker 2: a couple's therapist is like to hold the hope when
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  Speaker 2: they can't see it. You know, I'm always working from
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  Speaker 2: the premise of if they're telling me they're trying to
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  Speaker 2: make the relationship work, that's my goal as well, so
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  Speaker 2: until they tell me otherwise, because obviously sometimes couples are
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  Speaker 2: looking to have help, you know, partying or going their
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  Speaker 2: separate ways, co parenting, things like that. But if they're
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  Speaker 2: telling me that they're trying to make the relationship work,
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  Speaker 2: to be invited in, to be a witness to and
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  Speaker 2: to help facilitate them coming back together is the most
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  Speaker 2: beautiful thing that like, I can't even express it, right, Like,
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  Speaker 2: it's just this such deeply intimate moments that like I
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  Speaker 2: get to be part of in some way and help
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  Speaker 2: and see. You know, couples like the couple I referenced earlier,
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  Speaker 2: you know, come from such a dark place and truly
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  Speaker 2: like embody the concept of like kinsugi and like genuinely
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  Speaker 2: being in a better place than they were any other time
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  Speaker 2: in their relationship. Right, So not just a better place
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  Speaker 2: than they were when they started seeing me, and at
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  Speaker 2: better place than they were and any other time in
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  Speaker 2: their relationship. Communicating in a different way, their intimacy being
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  Speaker 2: like so much deeper and more connected, and not just
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  Speaker 2: about sex, just all aspects of their relationship being like
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  Speaker 2: more beautiful. Just to be a part of that, I get, like,
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  Speaker 2: it's just it's it doesn't get old. I love it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a I think there's this common adage in
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  Speaker 1: the couple's therapy realm. It goes like, if a couple
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  Speaker 1: is coming to see you, it's like almost too late.
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  Speaker 1: You know, is there truth to that? I mean, obviously
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  Speaker 1: there are so many different variables in all of this,
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  Speaker 1: but what are your thoughts on that?
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  Speaker 2: Well? I never think it's too late. I probably wouldn't
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  Speaker 2: be a couple's therapists if I thought it was too late.
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  Speaker 2: It would be sort of sadistic. But I think that
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  Speaker 2: it it's not ideal, right, Like, I think it's a
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  Speaker 2: very I think couple's therapy tends to be a very
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  Speaker 2: reactive approach to relationship. And I'm, you know, really trying
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  Speaker 2: to find a way within my career to head in
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  Speaker 2: a more proactive way. So I don't want to stop
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  Speaker 2: working with the reactive. I love helping people kind of
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  Speaker 2: come out of crisis. But you know, what are the
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  Speaker 2: ways to help people see the value and really investing
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  Speaker 2: in working on their relationship before they're in a place
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  Speaker 2: of crisis, because I think often we don't do that,
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  Speaker 2: and it's work. Relationships are work, you know. I think
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  Speaker 2: that there's a statistic and I can't quote where this
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  Speaker 2: came from, but I believe it's they say seven years
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  Speaker 2: couples wait seven years before they seek the help of
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  Speaker 2: a therapist, and you know, I would say seven years
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  Speaker 2: and seven years too late. But it's not too late,
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  Speaker 2: if that makes sense, Like it's there's always still hope,
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  Speaker 2: but it's seven years. Like how much easier would the
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  Speaker 2: work be if they started it seven years prior? Right,
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  Speaker 2: if they started it when there were beige flags instead
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  Speaker 2: of red flags?
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  Speaker 1: Right? Just like I've never heard that actually, So I
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  Speaker 1: know one of the things that you work with or
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  Speaker 1: consider our gender stereotypes. Let's talk about that. How does
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  Speaker 1: that come into your world? What are your thoughts on that?
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  Speaker 2: I mean, you think that there's tons of them. I
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  Speaker 2: could probably talk for hours about it. I think one
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  Speaker 2: of the ones that stands out the most for me
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  Speaker 2: that is really just kind of in a damaging way
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  Speaker 2: portrayed to us through all types of media is this
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  Speaker 2: idea that you know, men want sex all the time
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  Speaker 2: and women you know, have headaches and are avoiding it.
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  Speaker 2: And I actually, at any given time have more cases
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  Speaker 2: that I'm working with where it's the opposite. But there's
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  Speaker 2: so much shame around that dynamic. Like I think that
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  Speaker 2: you know, when it's the opposite way, when it's the
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  Speaker 2: woman that maybe is like saying she's has less libido
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  Speaker 2: or is less interested in sex, like that's like fits
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  Speaker 2: the norm, and so there's not as much shame around it.
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  Speaker 2: But when it's the opposite way, the shame on both partners,
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  Speaker 2: you know, and hetero sexual couples, you know, where the
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  Speaker 2: man saying like, well, I'm getting these messages that I
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  Speaker 2: should be wanting sex all the time, like what's wrong
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  Speaker 2: with me that I don't want to have sex with
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  Speaker 2: my wife? And the wife's going, you know, the same
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  Speaker 2: messages like what's wrong with me? Like I must be unattractive,
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  Speaker 2: I must be you know, undesirable. And that's why this
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  Speaker 2: is happening. And I think a lot of times people
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  Speaker 2: are they don't they're not talking to their friends about
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  Speaker 2: it because they think they're the only ones. They think
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  Speaker 2: they're living in this bubble and so they live with
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  Speaker 2: that shame for such a long time before you know,
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  Speaker 2: seeking help if they do, hopefully they do and then
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  Speaker 2: it's able to be normalized. But I think that that's
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  Speaker 2: one of the most substantial ones I see, and it's
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  Speaker 2: just reinforced TV movies, the music. I mean, I think
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  Speaker 2: it's starting to shift, but it's still a long way
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  Speaker 2: to go.
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  Speaker 1: The construct of marriage and within that relationships feels fraught
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  Speaker 1: with It's like a mind field and a sense of
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: shame and embarrassment. And are you seeing any shifts in
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: how couples are communicating because communication is obviously key in
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: a relationship, and it can be really hard, I think difficult,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: speaking from my own experience, to keep up this open
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: channel of communication. You know, what are your thoughts and
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: know what are you seeing? Now? Are you seeing any
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: trends you mentioned things might be shifting a little bit,
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: but speak to that sure.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think that a lot of times couples
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: will come and I'll do the consultation with them, and
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: these they might say something along the lines of like, well,
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: we communicate really well, And a lot of times what
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: that means is we communicate a lot and a lot
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: of times that means as we talk a lot, right,
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: and there I think it's a difference between talking a
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: lot and communicating, and so what ends up happening I
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: think a lot of times is that they have been
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: talking a lot, right, They've been talking a lot, a lot,
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: a lot for years maybe and not getting anywhere, and
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: so there's this burnout that's like they're already sort of
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: in the process of by the time they're seeking out
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: a therapist where they're like, well, talking doesn't work or
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: having you know, asking for my needs to be met
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: doesn't work. Like I've been asking for my needs to
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: be met for seven years, we'll use that number, and
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: it's still not changing. And they're not recognizing like subtle
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: differences that they can make in their communication that might
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: lead to not always but might lead to the change
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: that they're looking for. Right.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: Well, you mentioned the distinction between communication and talking. Elaborate
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: on that.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: I think talking a lot of times as a ping
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: pong match where it's just talking to speak and not
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: talking to listen. Right, So communication to me is taking
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: the time to really get a deeper understanding of what
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: is being talked about. Right, So it's not It's not
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: on the surface. It's down a level whereas they think
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: talking is each person is just saying things. Words are
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: coming out. There's like, you know, articulating something, but the
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: other person is on the receiving end just trying to
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: come up with what they're going to say back. And
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: that's usually where you get a lot of criticism, that
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: with defensiveness, and then you just get that dance of
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: like criticism and defensiveness ping ponging back and forth. So
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: hours could be spent doing that instead of slowing it
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: all down and really taking the time to be curious,
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: ask questions, go deeper, try to understand, you know, where
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: these sort of feelings come from, how far back they go,
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: how familiar they are, are they familiar outside the relationship, like,
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: you know, just going deeper in the conversation to understand,
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: like where are the needs that are being expressed coming from.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: You know, it's a lot easier to want to come
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: towards your partner when you understand the why and the
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: full picture of what they're asking for. Then just to
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: hear it as a criticism, I'm doing something wrong and
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: I'm supposed to change it right?
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: Can you give us an example, maybe kind of like
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: a sketch of people you worked with, how this might play. Yeah.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Sure. So if for example, there's a couple and maybe
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: the you know one partner has had a history of
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: being cheated on a previous relationship, right, so they're very
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: anxious there. They're anxiety is what's kind of driving a
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: lot of their behavior. If they're communicating or talking and
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: they're saying, well, I don't want you to go out
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: with your friends, or I don't I don't want you
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: to I need to know where you are, I need
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: to you need to report back to me, or you're
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: saying any of these things that might be coming out
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: of a place of anxiety. To the partner, it's going
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: to just feel like control, right, And if they take
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: that down an extra layer and they can go to
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: the more vulnerable place of I get really scared when
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: I don't know who you're with because it reminds me
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: of these times in the past, or I didn't know
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: where my partner was and they were cheating on me.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: And so when you're out, I'm really struggling with a
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: lot of anxiety. The request is, now, will you help me,
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: you know, manage my anxiety. Right, it's not coming from
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: and you know, I'm not about control, and I don't,
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: you know, want to sound like I'm promoting, like you know,
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: keep tabs on your partner. But I think that like
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: hearing it from that perspective is more likely to lead
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: to a place of compromise for the sake of decreasing
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: the anxiety, versus maybe more passive aggressive approach of like
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: I'm not telling you where I am, Like you don't
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: need to know where I am, Like I'm not doing anything,
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: so I don't need to report back to you. That
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: sort of like energetic ping pong match that I think
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: comes when we're up here in our secondary emotions rather
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: than on our sort of primary like vulnerable emotions that
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: are you know, creating the secondary feelings and behaviors that follow.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, as you were saying that, that's the word that
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: was coming up for me, vulnerability, And that can be
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: really challenging for a lot of us. Right. It's kind
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: of easier to say I don't want you hanging out
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: with someone, and it's a different level to say, you
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: know what I feel so, and so when you do that,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: that's that's taking it down a notch. How has your
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: idea of relationships shifted as you've been doing.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: This work, I mean dramatically. I think like one of
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: the areas where it's changed the most significantly is around infidelity.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: I think I had a very kind of concrete view
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: before I started really doing a lot of couple's therapy
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: that you know, once a cheator, are always a cheater,
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: you know, it's it's you're a bad person. You you know,
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: just these kind of ideas, which again are like kind
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: of the normal stereotypes that people talk about all the time.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: And yet I work with these couples and it's really
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: good people. Like they're really good people, and they their
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: relationship was fractured. They weren't recognizing it was fractured, they
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: weren't working on it, and they sort of how I
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: usually will describe it is they both walked up to
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: the door together and then one person chose to walk
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: through the door. And that choice of walking through the door,
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: and actually, you know, committing infidelity is that person's responsibility.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: But a lot of times when you look at it,
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: like they both walk to the door of like not
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: maybe putting the work into the relationship that was needed.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: Not always I think that there's also like character logical
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: cheaters is kind of what I refer to do it
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: as is like, you know, someone who just doesn't doesn't
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: subscribe to the idea of being monogamous in a monogamous relationship, right,
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: it just feels like they are able to kind of
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: do what they want and has a history of like
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: a pattern of repeated infidelity. But I'm talking about the
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: you know, the couple that they really love each other,
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: you know, and they really are good people, and they
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: don't view themselves as someone who would ever commit in fidelity,
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: and yet they find themselves in the situation where one
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: person has made those choices, and you know, a lot
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: of damage is done in those situations. But it's the
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: pictures is bigger than what I think I had thought
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: it was when I first started this work.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's it's very I mean, I guess one
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: can of ascribe to some of the common culturally accepted
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: norms definitions of what a relationship should be, like you know, no,
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: we're not going to cheat, and you're not going to
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: cheat on me, and if that happens, then it's over.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: That's an extreme example, but it's so complex and for
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: many of us when we're cheated on. That's hard to
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: get through. It's hard to get over, absolutely, you know,
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: it's such a it's such a delicate dance. How And
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: I guess, right, what are the goals of the couple
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: that's coming to see you again? Do they want to
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: get back together? Do they want to move through this? Yeah?
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: My god, intense. So getting getting back to my question,
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: you've developed a much more nuanced appreciation and understanding and
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: definition of what relationships are and can be.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: I guess yeah, And that they evolve, right, like that
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: they change over time, and that you know, to me,
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: a healthy relationship is one and where the community real
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: communication again, like what I was just talking about, where
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: the communication is occurring as the relationship is evolving, right,
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: So they're on the same page and they're making decisions
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: as they're moving forward as a couple, and you know,
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: ebbing and flowing and you know, kind of doing the
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: dance together rather than you know, in two different lanes,
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: which I think is a lot of times what we're
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: doing in our relationships. We're just in two different lanes
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: and we're not communicating. We think we're on the same page,
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: but there's a lot of assumptions being made and communication
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: is not going in a great way, and so our
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: needs aren't being met, and then you know, disaster strikes,
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: and I just think that there's a way that we
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: could be doing it better. And it is really hard
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: I say to you know, I say kind of jokingly
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: to couples all the time, like I think I'm a
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: really good couple's therapist. I'm not always a great wife,
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: right like I I'm not always like great in my
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: own relationship. I talk about this stuff all day long,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: and then you know, at night, I still sometimes find
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: myself being critical or you know, not listening and instead
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: being defensive. So it's very easy to fall in these
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: like patterns of behavior. And it's really kind of taking
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: a very conscious and proactive approach to our relationships that
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: keeps them in the healthiest lane in some respects.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: You know, I was married for thirteen years and recently
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: got a divorce, and in some respects it just feels
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: like an impossibility. It seems like this goal that we're
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: all striving towards, you know, and you hear about the
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: examples or you see about the incredible couple who is
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: able to communicate as they move along their life, and
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: for the rest of us, it feels like we're surviving
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: right with the onslaught of daily responsibilities with the kids
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: and driving here and driving driving there, and it's it's
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: almost a success and a win that we're able to
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: sit down together for dinner and and communicate even at
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: the most elemental level, you know, basic level. But to
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: do that, you know, to have that incredible relationship where
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: you are moving along and communicating. Why is that so
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: challenging for many of us?
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of times it's we put our
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: relationship and again, guilty as charge, we put our relationships
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: on the back burner. That's the thing that we go, Okay,
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: I could, I could deal with that later. I've got
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: all these other fires, you know, and and they're legitimate fires.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, all the things that you you listed, they're
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: all legitimate. But I think that, like you know, the
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: things that thrive in our lives are the things that
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: we put the most energy and effort into. And so
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: if we stop doing that in our relationship because we think, well,
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: that's okay, that's that's fine over there, I can come
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: back to it later, which is a lot of times
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: what I'm seeing especially with couples that are you know,
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: maybe like our age. Like I see a lot of
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: couples that are a lot younger that aren't you know,
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: there yet, aren't dealing with it yet. But you know
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: it's like okay, like, you know, we'll deal with that,
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: we'll deal with our relationship later. And then you know,
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: they're retired and have nothing in common, right, They've they've
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: like just they don't even know each other anymore. They've
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: just drifted apart and they didn't even see the drift happening.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: But I think that, you know, we put energy into
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: the things that are the that we see needing the energy,
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: and I think that when couples have to really prioritize
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: their relationship, I talk a lot of times about the
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: relationship being the nucleus, right, and if you are really
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: putting a lot of effort and energy into the nucleus,
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: you need both parties to be doing this. This isn't
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: like something one person can do. You have two people
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: that are really like kind of prioritizing the nucleus, then
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: everything else around it goes a lot easier and smoother. Work, children,
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: other relationships, family, all of that, Right, But When we
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: let that sort of fall apart, everything else gets harder
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: and there's more fires to put out, and then our
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: focus is even less on the center and more on
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: the outside. And you know, it just it's it's easy
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: to spiral in the negative way, it's it's harder to
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: keep the spiral in a positive direction. And then once
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: you get it there, to just kind of maintain it.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: It's work. It's a lot of work.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: All right, Kendra. I'm talking with Kendra Capalbo. We're talking
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: about relationships. The I'm going to say it crazy world
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: of relationships. So how do you work with people and
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: what capacity? How can people learn more about you and
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: the work you're doing.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: So I have my practice, which because of licensure obviously
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: is you know, limited to the states where I'm licensed,
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: So that's Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Connecticut, and
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: that's my website. Is the easiest way to reach me
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: if someone were to live in one of those states,
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: which is Concierge Couples Counseling dot com. But I have
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: a new venture that I'm trying to or I'm getting
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: ready to launch a couple's retreat program, which is more
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: the proactive approach. So that obviously is not therapy. It's
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: not meant for couples that are in crisis. It's kind
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: of meant for the couples that the year one instead
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: of year seven to kind of go back to what
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: we talked about before. So couples that are doing all
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: right right, but recognize that it is work and they
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: want to keep their relationship in a really healthy place.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: And so it's kind of combining like a vacation with
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: you know, doing some work on the relationship. And the
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: best way to reach me is through you know, instant
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: messenger or I'm not a big social media girl, but
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: the DM on Instagram which is Exclusive Couples Retreats, So yeah,
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: just people can reach out through there if they're interested.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: Also have a website which is Exclusive Couples Retreats dot
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: com and set up a call and talk about the
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: possibility of creating a retreat.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Very cool, all right, We'll have those linked up at
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: the show notes page here at the Traumatrips podcast dot com. Kendra, awesome,
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: awesome talking to you. Love to have you back at
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: a later date. Keep up the date and I really
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: appreciate you. Thank you so much. All right, take care