Latest / CEO Kingdom Seekers / Ep 23: The Courage to Say No: Building a Business Without Compromising Your Convictions with Jeff Kruszyna (Proverbs 16:8)

Transcript

Ep 23: The Courage to Say No: Building a Business Without Compromising Your Convictions with Jeff Kruszyna (Proverbs 16:8) · CEO Kingdom Seekers

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hello everyone.
• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to today's episode.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I am delighted to have an amazing guest, Jeff Krujina.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: He's the CEO of JMK Victory, which is a direct response marketing agency specializing in conservative political fundraising.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: So over the past 20 plus years, Jeff's helped campaigns, packs, and organizations raise over$100 million.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: And he's done so largely through a channel most marketers have written off direct mail.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Very excited to talk about that.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: He's a fellow 5-8 cap a graduate, and he made a pivotal career shift after 9-11, training computer science for political consulting and never looking back.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Today he's one of the leading voices in the Patriot economy, bringing battle-tested fundraising strategy, contrarian marketing insights, and a deep faith to everything he built.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: He's also a dad, a Packers fan, and the leader of the Christian cigar group.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome, Jeff.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining me.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Looking forward to a great conversation today.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Same.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: So okay, we mentioned this in the bio that you made this big career pivot after 9-11 from computer science to political consulting.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: As somebody who has made a big pivot like that, where I always refer to it like former life, current life.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: What happened to change your trajectory from really this one industry to the other?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you see God's hand in that decision?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you look back at it.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, at the time I didn't realize it was God's hand kind of shifting my focus, but 100%.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think all of us can remember where we were that Tuesday morning, especially for myself being a uh undergrad at at Sturdy Brooke University.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: About 45 minutes from Manhattan, ground zero.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, walking from class to class, then realized something was up, people were talking, and this is pre-social media, pre-smartphones, all that.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Asked someone what's going on, something doesn't seem right.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: And learned at that moment that a plane had crashed into one of the Twin Towers.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: So we went over to the student activity center, and that's where we watched on repeat the second plane hitting the second tower.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it was at that moment that something stirred inside of me to where I was a computer science undergrad thinking I was gonna go work for Microsoft or some big tech company, and I was gonna be a super lucrative career for me.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: I like computers and all things like that and never really paid attention to politics or knew really what was going on outside of my little bubble.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: But it was at that moment that yeah, something changed inside of me to where I got super engaged in watching the news, connecting with folks on campus, which led me to starting up a College of Republicans chapter, which connected me into Young America's Foundation, which fast forward continues to be a client to this day.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: But it was that kind of shift that led me on this career to working for America First Causes and Campaigns.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's quite a shift from hard science to uh social science.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, switched my major from Compsci, computer science, to political science and never looked back.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's interesting that you mention that time frame in particular, really drawing you more into the political realm because I was a sophomore in high school.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: I can still remember being, it's funny, as we were prepping, I was thinking about that.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: I was in physics class and I remember we had just been talking about forces and all of these things, and then you're watching this literally happen.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like a very meta-surreal moment of this is in real time forces coming against one another, but not just the buildings and the planes, but thinking about from a political perspective on countries.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I can see how something like that could just really shift the perspective for you of what am I doing in terms of what's gonna really matter to me moving forward.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I realized too that computer science, like it just wasn't gonna be fulfilling.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: I still obviously use technology and now AI and do appreciate that analytical kind of mind that I've been blessed with too.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where the direct marketing and fundraising specifically marries the art and the science of yes, crafting the copy that goes into a marketing campaign, asking donors to contribute to whether it's a political campaign or a nonprofit, charity, museum, what have you.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Ultimately, we're looking at it scientifically too of what color paper are we using, what color the envelope is, the stamp choice, the fonts, the white space, like all stuff that you wouldn't, as someone not in the industry, you wouldn't realize.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: But like the advertising of it is the science part of the brain, too, of very the social science and the hard science too.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: God definitely has a way about guiding us on our path in life.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know what the plan is, he does.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: And if you asked me 25 years ago, I would have said, Oh, I'm gonna go work for Computer Associates, which was the biggest employer out on Long Island in New York at the time, or Microsoft or Google wasn't really what it is now.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I would have said working in that area, definitely not living and working outside the Washington, DC swamp.
• 5:20
  unknown: Yeah.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that I wanted to ask you about this because there's a couple things about what you were doing that I think are unique.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: We have a lot of incredible guests on here who are all doing amazing things and very much called to do so as a godly mission, kingdom-centered focus.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you are, I think you said it in your contrarian marketing almost a little bit.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: You're you are very much in a world while trying to not be of a world from a uh political perspective, I would imagine.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: And you're also doing just this really fascinating thing with marketing because you're quote unquote going back to something that a lot of people are like, oh, that's antiquated, that's not the way to do it.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: And yet, and I'd love to hear more about this because it sounds like this is actually wildly successful and it's consistently outperforming other channels.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, my my business partner always likes to say direct mail is appointment viewing.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: So in that you're physically taking an envelope from your mailbox and you have to do something with it, whereas email or now text peer-to-peer text messaging is all the craze.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I definitely have friends that work on those channels too.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm a big proponent of the multi-channel, omni-channel focus of the multiple touch points.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to meet people where they are, whether that's on social media, on mobile, or for me, it's been good old-fashioned snail mail through your post officer that delivers your mail every day.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so direct mail has obviously been around for decades.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: And while there's less competition now in the mailbox, because yes, a lot of marketers have pivoted 100% away from mail and only do digital, there are a lot of worthy causes and charities that depend on their direct mail programs to sustain their organization.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: And the grandma in Idaho giving five dollars to uh a local cause or big DC advocacy organizations supporting like the pro-life cause or pro-family or immigration, name your issues.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's organizations working on all of them.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I've had the privilege to work pretty much on who's who of organizations and folks in elected office to this day.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, what's old is new again.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: There's definitely been more studies now for as an elder millennial myself.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Same.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Folks that, you know, of our generation and younger, like the novelty of getting something in the mail, because now it's a birthday card from grandma or something like that.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it's try to find a text that you got from last week or an email you got, you know, while we're on this call, it's going to be cluttered or in a junk mail folder, or now a text on my iPhone has the unknown text folder, kind of spam folder kind of thing.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: And working in politics, we definitely saw the big tech censor certain points of view, certainly during the COVID period.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: But beyond that, Mark Zuckerberg or pre-Elon Musk Twitter now X was known to silence conservative viewpoints or shadow ban.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: And direct mail has always been that kind of channel to go around, whether in the early days of the direct mail, it was going around the major TV networks that were telling you what the news was and communicating the alternative news that the gatekeepers wouldn't allow.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: And now in the digital age, yes, there's a proliferation of platforms from even for this, being on YouTube or Rumble or Facebook, Instagram, all of the above.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: And whoever the owner is of that platform can decide that they don't like a certain thing, whether that's right or left, and it's game over.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas the folks that have diversified like anything else and kept kept their footing in direct mail and continue to build, those are the organizations that have persevered through all the big tech censoring and have thrived to this day.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I'd say what's old is new again.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that statement really stuck is like what's old is new.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, that feels it actually sounds very biblical, honestly.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: But you're speaking to something that I think is actually really valuable because what I find is that sometimes in online marketing, it's all about attracting your niche, right?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: So like getting people who are your ideal client, your ideal avatar to engage with your content, which again, yes, it's part of the direct mail.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: But what I think is really beautiful is uh it's going into the mailboxes, right?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: And there's there are gonna be a lot of people who receive that that maybe aren't interested in what you're offering.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I also kind of love that too, because I feel like it's a way for you to get the message out to a broader audience in a way that, like you just said, you're getting around a lot of those potential and also very nebulous and like hard to define because they're constantly changing and we call it quote unquote the algorithm.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: But like it even the people who created the algorithm, if you ask them to explain it, a lot of times they're like, let's kind of take it on a mind of its own.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of things there.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's a really interesting way to think about getting in front of people that you traditionally wouldn't.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, they may not agree with what you're offering or might not, or they may agree with it a lot.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I'm thinking about the pet store down the street.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: We have one magnet, we have space for one magnet on our microwave, and it always gets the mailed pet store coupons.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we are like very loyal to that brand because they're the only ones that send us coupons in hand that we can put right in front of us that whoever's going to the store can have.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I hadn't even thought about that until this moment of like they've created brand loyalty through that of going, okay, you live close to the store, so we're the most convenient place for you, and we're gonna give you this incentive to come in with the companies that you consult with.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you said you've got this omni directional approach, and also in just like looking over your bio, like the battle-tested strategies and the cautionary tales, right?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: One one thing to touch on when you spoke about the on digital, everyone thinks of the algorithm.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Likewise, as far as who we're targeting, yes, it is the it has its own whether whatever buzzword you want to use, now it's AI, machine learning, large language model, it's all one and the same, but it's down to targeting folks that have either given to like-minded causes specifically through that channel.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: So in my case, direct mail, and have given recently.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: So within the last 12 months, you've given to a like-minded cause or campaign or something.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: And all that data is available.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I've got an audience builder on my team, and we build out lists this way to basically cultivate that first-time donor.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: So prospecting or donor acquisition side, where we're looking for that first-time donor to a nonprofit or that we're working on behalf of, or a political campaign since we're in an election year.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of this now.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: But really, it's that the battle-tested marketing tactics of the takes whether you're Coca-Cola or an organization trying to raise money and brand and brand ID, it's that seven to ten touch points.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: So our target on that first kind of prospect mailing is to get a 2% response rate.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, in other words, 98% of folks are either throwing it out, not taking an action, it's sitting on their kitchen table for a couple of weeks.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately, that 2% of responders will turn into what we call the house file.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: So then we cultivate those folks to give that second, third gift, become monthly givers, upgrade that they're giving over time, and build that one-to-one relationship between the organizational signer, so the executive director of the nonprofit, the political candidate himself or herself, and that individual donor.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Even though we're doing it at scale and mailing 10,000, 20, 100,000 people at a time, it's ultimately that communication, as I was taught 20-some years ago, is write like you're writing home to grandma and the sixth or seventh grade uh level, not using big flowery words that I went and got my, you mentioned the five beta kappa, and I've got my master's degree and all that, had to unlearn all the grammar rules that went into my honors thesis back then to a four-page direct marketing donor acquisition piece that is very conversational.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: So when you watch politicians give speeches, that's sort of the same cadence of you have your call to action, you have your Trump is notorious for all his kind of catchphrases, so build the wall, drain the swamp.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's the repetition there.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: So those are all kind of the battle-tested uh tactics that myself and my team have learned and implement day over day.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: As far as cautionary tales, I'd say the biggest thing is to start small, so test small and then incrementally build from there.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: So there's definitely been times where, especially on the political campaign side, where you have a very short window to affect change or get your message out, and you want to just do a gut roll to a million homes and things like that.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think more recently, before we have Speaker Johnson, we had Speaker McCarthy, and then all of a sudden overnight, he was not the Speaker of the House anymore.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: And we certainly had lots of direct mail pieces out, both for my clients and across the industry on the right side of the aisle, that were mentioning Speaker McCarthy.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know there's an election, so you know there's November, things could change, and then come January, your new political leaders are going to be sworn in.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: In that case, that was just a freak occurrence where he got ousted, and there was a period of days where we didn't know who the next speaker of the house was, so there was the uncertainty.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: And for direct mail, anything that, if you were my client, anything that we agreed for final copy to go out today is going to mail two weeks from now and is going to be in a donor's home basically a month from today.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: So trying to be evergreen in general, but timely.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: So you know certain times of year, certain things are happening, there's certain hard deadlines, whether that's for a local charity or uh a political primary or runoff or any of those kind of things, or just different times throughout the year, tax day, veterans day, depending on your charity and your audience.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: Those those don't change, but cautionary tale definitely had we in that case, there were there's really nothing you could do, and everyone was in the same boat.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I think donors in general gave us some grace on that because it was still like a oh, this is a crazy tsunami type event.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: Another one that that really hit home was we've had the privilege to do some work with Turning Point USA, and we had some mail in donors' inboxes that's right on September 10th of last year when Charlie was murdered in front of everybody to see now on social media.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that was definitely tough.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Speaking to everyone knows where they were on 9-11.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: I can still remember being on the phone with my business partner because September 15th is tax day for businesses, and we're going back and forth and finalizing all our tax filing that was due later that week.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: And we got a text message from an old colleague with the link that I clicked and opened on my computer screen as I'm looking at you, and I saw it, and just heart sank.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: I had samples of mail on my desk signed by Charlie.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, you can't ever plan for anything like that.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's still I I can feel that same emotion of I don't know what to do, just seeing what I saw and hoping and praying it was like an AI, a deep fake kind of thing, but it wasn't.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately, yeah, remaining faithful in in what we're doing and throughout the process of just yeah, just taking a breath and forging ahead, not not cowering.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: Even when we've had mail be fail or be unsuccessful, it's okay.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: We constantly have to be testing different messages, different themes, different timing.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: And there's always some some latest, greatest technique, or now it's more in the the AI technology to super personalize your letter beyond just your name and where you live.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: To oh, like you go to this pet store.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna mention that.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: And the same thing where you see ads for things pop up all across as you're surfing the internet based on things you've been talking about or searching for, and you're gonna continue, like you continue to go and buy things at that pet store, they're gonna continue to mail you coupons and keep you coming in.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a couple of things I'm hearing there, just like cautionary tale-wise.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think the one is that there's things that are in your control and there's things that aren't, right?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: And knowing when it makes sense to pivot in those situations and also maintaining the integrity and like the message, right?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you also bring up something else that I wanted to ask you about, which is I think it's tough enough in business in general to uh again be uh in the world and not of the world.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: So when you are a Christian and a business owner, like a lot of times the way that the world tells you to market or sell or deliver, things like that, it's there's a a different standard that uh I believe most of us try to live by and that we should try to live by.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: And like politics in general, there's this just such a tension between winning at all costs and uh operating with integrity.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I guess I'm just curious, how do you navigate that as a Christian?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you like because I just have to imagine there's more than what the average person in business is gonna witness and be exposed to in that realm?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the uh the smoke-filled black back rooms is a thing on both sides, and I think you're seeing that kind of play out and it spills out into the public every now and again.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: And there are good people and bad people on both both political parties, whether it's as a Republican, the establishment or the administrative states that wants to keep the status quo, and it's the politics of power.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I always like to say, being from New York, you have the you learn in uh in grade school or high school about Boss Tweed and Tammany Hall and the power of patronage and all that.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that still definitely exists in a lot of the big metro areas, New York, Chicago, all across the country, really.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: When it comes to who we select and who we choose to work with, that vetting process on the front end is making sure we only will work with socially conservative pro-life Republicans, which helps self-select out a uh a whole lot.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then, yeah, there's you don't know until you get in and start working with these folks.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a little bit of a gut call on understanding who they are and what they're about, what issues they're advocating for, and policies that they're pursuing.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now, there's always the hypocritical case of someone promoting family values, but isn't exactly living by them.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: And those are the the worst to have worked on and worked through and decided to part ways when things come to light like that.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: But ultimately, yes, it's being discerning on the front end, especially in in who we're working with and kind of our track record of working with pro family organizations.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very clear like, hey, if you're not pro family.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Life, we're probably not the right fit.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And really, speaking as someone not from the creative side, if I don't believe it, I can't write in such a way the message that's compelling and emotional.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like somebody asked me fairly recently on a different show if I could write for a leftist politician or a pro-abortion Planned Parenthood.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, yes and no.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I could reverse engineer and figure out the science of it, of what the talking points and the cadence is.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: But that letter one would lack all emotion because I vehemently oppose everything that they stand for.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: And two, the folks that we're targeting as far as the lists go and who we're mailing out to is built on past-giving history.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: And whether it's a patriotic brand or political campaign, these are the same kind of like-minded donors that, yes, some the life issue may be all important, others may be immigration, others may be tax issues.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: But in general, love of America generally Christian biblical values is kind of our underpinning.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's all encompassing of who I am and who I serve.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: And if I wouldn't vote for you or personally give to an organization, it's going to be extremely hard for me or my team to develop a program around whatever it is.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: I am so glad you're talking about this.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: This is something that we've seen too in our agency.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's something that actually coming up on a year ago, we shifted from running a secular education for trauma institute to really going, you know what, God's leading us in this direction.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: We're shutting this seven-figure business down and coming over here and starting this thing from scratch.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that I think was the toughest about that was uh that what you just mentioned, that discernment, that that uh upfront container setting.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because I feel like everybody has to do it differently depending on who they're going to be serving and how they're gonna be doing it.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think for some businesses and for us as business owners, it is a, hey, these are places that we need to make sure we're aligned.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because if we're not, like you just said, it's not that I don't like you.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that I'm like judging you as a horrible person.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like I do have a very differing belief than you do here, but more so it's I'm not gonna be able to do an effective job.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to hire me because you want to hire somebody who believes what you believe because they're gonna, like you said, put the emotionality and their belief into that.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: We've really landed in this place of we are going to teach business based on biblical foundations.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a verse, like this podcast, when it comes out, there will be a verse that's tied to it when we have a masterclass.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's gonna be a lot of biblical context brought into that.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to be running a Christian business in order to be in here with us.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't even technically need to profess yourself as a Christian, but if you don't want to hear us teaching in that way, this probably isn't the right space for you.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Cause again, what are you gonna get out of that?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: For our agency clients, it is very much like Jesus is the way and the truth and the life.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we do have a select few people that we work with who are like, I am not there where you're at, and I respect what you believe so much that I want to like work with you and get to know it better.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, hey, that's great.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's a lot of people who are afraid to do this.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of people who are like, I'm scared to say that because what if like so?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just really grateful for what you said there around you don't want to take those people on as clients, not because it's a judgment on them, more so that it's are you gonna be able to do your best work?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Are you gonna be able to show up every day and put your whole heart into supporting and not only just supporting, but like promoting what it is that their message is.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so thank you for that because I see this take people out.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's always the crux of it of are you willing to compromise for financial gain?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: And you see that a lot, regardless of industry, and working with patriotic brands, so kind of patriot economy, whether that's think patriot mobile or seven weeks coffee or things like that, knowing your audience too, think of Bud Light when they hired transgender influencer in their commercials.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Bud Light, that's supposed to be the blue-collar everyman beer, doesn't seem to be the right fit for the right audience.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, yeah, they they tried something, and the market proved that they were extremely wrong, and they've been trying to claw back that market share ever since.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's again being true to who you are and who you serve.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, and sounds like for you and your husband, it's a calling.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, you want to be like Jesus and love everyone and help those in need.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: For what I do, it's it's a lot of people, it's somewhat easier in that AOC or uh hard leftist isn't gonna come work with me because they're not gonna want to.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: If you Google me, you're gonna see pictures of me with Donald Trump and other politicians and things that I've written about whatever issues through the years, and I've been fairly consistent in my viewpoints in general.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, it's in that way for what I do, that part is easier.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's I think the compromising around the edges of the it's a little bit of a gray area, maybe we can do it.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's those that I'm so thankful that God paired me up with my business partner Joel to where whatever either one of us has that should we, and then we'll have a conversation.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, okay, that was good.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: We talked it through.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's either a yes or a no.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: We're not gonna, we're not compromising.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: We've been at big agencies, we've seen how that plays out.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: It can be lucrative, but it also leads to mission drift, is a huge problem down the road.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you for bringing up that term, mission drift, because that's really it, right?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: I've found that at this point in my faith walk, it's not gonna be something big, likely, that would tempt me from shifting.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: It is gonna be these tiny little allowances, right?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: That I go, oh, I guess it's okay.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I guess it's okay.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: And those are the things that you know, a month later you look up and you're like, oh wow, like we're not okay anymore.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that that is it's tough.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's tough in today's society.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: I've had some clients that are like, look, Lee, I don't want to market on this platform, and here's why.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, okay, great, awesome.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, oh, but I know we could.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, look, you've got a conviction, you've got a personal conviction around this.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna go to every one of my clients and say, hey, don't be on this platform.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: But for you, you're telling me that there is a specific reason that is gonna take you out of alignment if you're doing this.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: So let's plan around that.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that a lot of people don't realize they can do business that way.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: They don't realize that they can, instead of like almost girding their loins in those areas and being like, I have to do this because this is the way I'm like, there are some things that are very foundational to business, but like you being on a particular platform, you marketing in a particular way, you working with particular clients, like all of that is there's no hard and fast rules around that, other than is it taking you away from Jesus?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because if it is, then we've got a problem.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, there's so many times like that.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I love all my friends that are still in in C12, and I had a season of time in that of kind of the business owner round table, and sounds exactly what you're doing as far as taking those biblical principles and applying them to the marketplace, because ultimately, and this is something that's lived out through that organization, and there are many others too, but the majority of Americans aren't going to church, but they're going to work.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, hearing a message or seeing how you operate and lead through a biblical lens or leading on biblical truth, how you're showing up every day is maybe the only testimony that you know somebody that's working for you or you're working with is gonna see.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: So having these clients that are questioning or agnostic or don't know quite know, but they're like, we just love working with Lee.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like ultimately, then it's like, hey, like I went to church on Easter and all that kind of thing.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, I've seen that, and I've seen many other of my peers in those groups like have similar testimonies of employees that didn't really know what they believed, and through working at a business run and operated under biblical values, they became believers, and that's a generational impact not only on that organization, but on that person's family for generations to come.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, and that's the humbling thing of it.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we're all sinners, we all fall short, but at the end of the day, like, whose are you and who do you serve?
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: And as long as you have those grounded, you're you'll be fine.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're gonna be tested, there's gonna be times where you fall short or or step off the path, and God has a way to redirect your steps, and doesn't mean that you won't pay the price for some things, but yeah, ultimately remaining faithful and working as though God is the real CEO of our companies is the mindset that I think there's a lot more of us out there than you think.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it's great to see.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: And when you come across folks like us, it's no matter what the industry is, it's okay, like we have the main thing set, the foundation is solid.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: We may be in completely different industries serving completely different people, but God's calling for each one of us is unique and He uses us in all sorts of ways.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that's my husband and I actually we recently had the opportunity to speak and ended up sponsoring a conference that it was again, I was very like, I think so God led in how it all turned out.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I was nervous because it was the first time that I'd been speaking in two years, and this was the first event that wasn't a Christian event that I was speaking at since we made this business pivot.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it was getting up in front of a room and I was like praying about it beforehand.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, God, I need you to give me the words here because I've never done this.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it was so amazing because what I realized was I'm in this room where there's all these people comfortable saying universe and spirit and guides and this.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, okay, if everybody else is comfortable saying what they're saying, I get to be more than comfortable saying Jesus.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: So there was a lot of people in that room that obviously that was not their belief system, and that was great.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: But the amount of people who came up afterwards that were like, I've never heard someone say, I've heard people say God, but I've never heard someone say Jesus in a space like this.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Christian, I really appreciate it.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know that we were allowed to live our faith out loud like this.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just a moment of like, oh, okay.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there can be a tendency to, as business owners, the deeper in our faith we get, sometimes it's harder to stay in those more secular spaces.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: And again, there's nuance.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes God's gonna take you in a place that you just like, I'm just thinking about you in this political sphere.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of unchristian things happening, and yet it's a beautiful place to serve as a a light to shine kind of and have people go, hold on a second, why is your business so great to work with?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why do I love this?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, because we're trying to be like Jesus.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: And people go, oh, and and then they've had the experience, right?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just like somebody gave them the good news.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's oh, I felt what it felt like to be cared for, like marketed to by somebody who has these beliefs.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's the the humbling thing at the end of the day, is having that realization that what you're doing is a calling and you're right where you need to be doing what you need to be doing.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, the most successful fundraising campaigns or individual letters that I've crafted have always been those that I was struck by the issue or you know, the you know, whatever was going on at the time.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it showed through, and those raised tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars because that was God working through me, using the talents and the creativity that He's blessed me with to tell that story using words on a four-page letter, you know, mailed to tens of thousands of people.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the if you asked me what direct mail was 25 years ago, I would have said, oh, it's just the the coupons or whatever you get in the mail.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: I had no idea that the industry that I've built a career in existed, but God certainly did.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: And he guided my steps little by little to making those connections while in college through Young America's Foundation.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then that connected me with my first job in the DC area, which led me to build a career, and then ultimately, just over three years ago, set out and start a company of my own alongside my business partner and brought me to doing these podcasts and connected me with you.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: That just goes back to that first question of like, how do you see God's hand in it?
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I I love that you circled back to that because that's it, is I think a lot of times in the moment, you're just like, okay, God's calling me to do this.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: To a lot of people, this could look nonsensical.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: It is a big pivot, it is a transition, and yet I know that this is the right move.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then when you look back, you're like, oh, and that's why, because this led to this.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that we have that secular saying of hindsight's 2020, but I just really feel like every time I look back, I'm like, oh, there was God, and there was God, and there was God, and there was God.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, He's in the rear re mirror everywhere.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: And let me ask you this last question.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: If we've got a uh listener in the audience who's hearing you talk about this and they're like, oh man, I really want to kind of follow that same trajectory.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: I've had that pivot, that transition, had this successful career, pivoted to starting my own business, and now I really want to build something meaningful in this very noisy competitive market.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: How would you advise them to stay grounded in those values while still playing to win?
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the things you personally do?
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: Certainly, I think daily prayer time has been a big part for me personally.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then corporately, and my business partner and I pray together, usually on a every other week basis of we have either a sermon or something we're reading, and then having, thanks to AI, it will give us some prompting questions to spark a conversation.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that definitely I think keeps me grounded and our business kind of in alignment.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: But really, I think at the end of the day, and I've been guilty of this throughout my through at different stages of my career of are you what is God to use?
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's not more money in the bank account, chasing keeping up with the Joneses or whatever.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's what are you doing and who are you serving?
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, like the Lord will provide, like if it is his will and if you're obedient and following that, and he'll put people in your life that will both strengthen you and test you.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately bearing out that fruit like doesn't necessarily have to mean Uber, prosperity, millions in the bank.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're depending on what you're doing work-wise, how are you serving people?
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how does that make you feel?
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: You should like what you're doing and feel fulfilled in no matter what your job is and what you're doing.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, I've been blessed to find this direct marketing, conservative, direct mail fundraising as my career and building a company on that.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I get it, that's not for everyone.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: But ultimately, knowing who you are and who you serve is the core of everything.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, just remaining faithful and uh you know, wait for his prompting.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'll work on you.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: One of the fruits of the spirit is patience.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: So which I also love.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: I actually just talked about this maybe yesterday, two days ago, is that the word patience also, like depending on your Bible translation, can be translated as long suffering and or endurance.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: And oh boy, I feel like all the fruits of the spirit get cultivated as an entrepreneur.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you gotta trust in his timing.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh, like the endurance, yes, the endurance and the self-control, the discipline are the two that I'm like, those are the two that entrepreneurship I feel like develops in spades.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: So Jeff, this has been absolutely wonderful.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna make sure that we put your links in the show notes so that people can find out more about you and your work.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: And is there anywhere specific you'd like to mention for people to connect with you?
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, though, the two easiest ones are either my company, which is jmkvictory.com, or as I mentioned when we were trying to figure out how I pronounce my last name, also have the URL get JeffK.com, where you can find me and book a free 30-minute strategy session.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh if you're working on any sort of nonprofit or patriotic business or thinking about running for office and just want to pick my brain.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, anyone can hop on there and grab a time on my calendar and looking forward to connecting with anyone.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that is amazing.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you again for joining us and to our listeners.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that you enjoyed.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: If you have any reflections, questions, remember you can email us at hello at regulatedroots.com.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: We're always so excited to get that feedback.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: And we will catch you for next week's episode.