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REALLY JEWISH SE1:E26 - Loving the land · REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph

• Alex: in the first half century, hardly any Jews actually want to make aliyah, right? And it's not just because they can't. Okay, what once World War II hits, it's harder to come, but like in general, it's not because they can't. Because they prefer to go to the United States or perhaps Britain, right? That's just a fact, right? And you know, the phrase, it's a that phrase facts don't care about your feelings. I think that's a really great phrase, okay? Like it's okay, like it's okay to think it's important Israel exists and Israel is justified in existing, even if it's not perfect, etc. etc. It's okay to sort of think that and to also say things like, well, Zionism wasn't very successful. Oliver Joseph: A lot of the time, if we're talking about the UK press where we live and more broadly and more globally, a lot of the kind of presentation is all about this conflict and about anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism and Zionism and the Palestinian cause and all sorts of different stuff, which are certainly crucial and should not be belittled in any sense of the imagination, but aren't the essence of Judaism. So the attempt of Really Jewish at a time of so much, know, column inches and social media posts and about Jews and Judaism is to kind of try and boil down and hone in on with a focus way. So it sounds like the Love of the Land project is similar. Alex: Knowing the history of the land in all its facets enhances your enhances your pleasure, your love of the land. So you know, I've written about you know, I also write a lot, obviously a lot about the conflict, but I've written a lot about aspects of of Palestinian history, aspects of sort of architect like Ottoman architecture, for example, these things called the throne houses. And it's really enhanced my understanding. Oliver Joseph: Welcome to Really Jewish. Welcome to our conversation about what it is to be Jewish. If you're here for another listen, welcome back. If you're here for the first time, Bruchim Ha'Bai'im We've had a cracker summer of loads of different guests who have been with us. My colleague and friend Rabbi Miriam Arkush Lorie my friend Vadim Avshalumov Rabbi Roni Tabick for the first time, also a friend Rabbi Joel back again. Some great episodes on the Really Jewish podcast. taking us across the summer. This week we have my friend Alex Stein. There's a theme here, lots of friends and colleagues. who've been with us as some of my first guests of the podcast as we cross the six month mark. this Really Jewish project is an important one for me, one where I get to talk about some of the big and pressing issues that have been affecting the Jewish world. And also dipping a little bit deeper into the personal examination of what, of how those topics affect us, affect Jewish people, affect... the world more generally and it's been an exciting project so far so thanks for joining us for the journey. This week we have Alex Stein, a friend from lots of years growing up in our Jewish youth movement Noam. Back in the day I would have known Alex since I was about 10 years old, also part of the synagogue that I grew up in. And he's an interesting character because he's been made Aliah 20 years ago. came to Israel 20 years ago, was involved in various programming including at the conservative Yeshiva where I studied Beit Fuchsberg in Jerusalem and he is a passionate educator, somebody who has been a tour guide in Israel and continues to do that work but as you'll hear on the podcast with significant interruption by COVID and by the various wars Israel has fought in the last years. He writes on love of the land dot sub stack.com so you can find him there and you'll see some of the links for his articles in the show notes. And we're getting I guess, deep and dirty like we jump into a topic which is very difficult at the moment. In the context of the Jewish story. talking about love of the land, we're talking about the historic relationship between Jews and Israel, but we're also talking about some of the complexity of that story. Because as he describes in the podcast, the Jewish story is been around since the destruction of the two temples. And through all of the last 2000 years in various places, the Galilee, the desert in the south in Gaza itself in the West Bank, Hebron, Bethlehem, there's a Jewish history which goes back but the overlay, the other layers of the Jewish history is about the Ottoman Empire and the medieval period in Israel where there was also steeped history of other peoples, of the Palestinian people, of... a kind of dual narrative of Muslim Christian and Arab place and home in those places. So the reason why I think Alex Stein is an interesting guest because I think he is to a degree attempting to offer a perspective of complexity and of a multi layered interrelationship of the Jewish people and Palestinian Arab community in this place. So join us for Really Jewish for this next leg of our Really Jewish journey. Welcome, Alex Stein, So Alex Stein is a Jerusalem correspondent for Love of the Land. Alex, you have your own sub stack, which is a good reading for anybody who hasn't come across it yet. You're a tour guide. You're a friend. You're a know You're somebody who grew up in our youth movement. Somebody I've known for a very long time. And today we're talking about love of the land talking about the Jewish relationship with the state of Israel with the historical physical land and it's lovely to welcome you here. Thank you for coming on the podcast. Alex: Great to be here. as we as we say we're recording this the morning after the World Cup final, which ended very late here in Israel. So I hope I will be lucid despite my relative lack of sleep. Oliver Joseph: And you're a massive fan. Who were you cheering on yesterday? Alex: I didn't really care to be honest. I just wanted a really good game and it wasn't such a great game. but, you know, finals are often like that, often very tense. it was just the cringe moment of Trump refusing to leave the stage for the trophy lift was just so cringe. and they've already edited him out of the pictures. Like Stalin used to edit people out of his pictures. So there you go. Oliver Joseph: I love it. Alex, tell us a little bit who you are, where you come from, how you ended up in Jerusalem and the work you're doing at the moment. It's lovely to have you on. Alex: so I'm originally, as you have mentioned, grew up in London, grew up going to attending New North London synagogue, big Noamnik Noam Masorti youth from a very young age, which eventually involved Israel tour and a gap year in Israel doing the the Machon and volunteering and traveling. And even then I hadn't had enough of this Jewish Zionism experience or brainwashing or indoctrination or whatever you want to call it. Because after university, I then spent a year studying at the Conservative Yeshiva in Jerusalem in back in my frummy days. and then I came back and I worked for Noam for a year and I did a master's. And then I made Aliyah 20 years ago, about twelve 10th of July. twenty two thousand and six. So twenty I've been here now twenty years in the land of Israel and I have been doing various things since I've got here but for the last sort of ten years or so my main gig has been a tour guide educator. even if that's sometimes been theoretical because of COVID and then the war has really hit that industry hard but let me get the plug in early If you are planning on coming to Israel and you are looking for a tour guide, please do hit me up. And then when the war started and I again had more time on my hands, I I started the love of the land substack. Oliver Joseph: And tell us a little bit about the Love the Land sub-sector because for anybody who's read it, it's interesting because nothing is non-political in these times, but I think part of the attempt is also to portray some of the complexity of this place at time when in lots of channels and lots of media streams, there isn't necessarily a complexity portrayed and specifically... I think you're trying to articulate the historical and the archaeological composition of the place in which you live. what, you know, we have a specific bent in terms of the ambitions of the Really Jewish Podcast, trying to be as if a fly on the wall type podcast where you listen into intensive and intimate conversations between friends, colleagues, in this case, people who go back a lot of time, a lot of the first guests have come on the podcast, the people I've known for a really, really long time, which I think has a certain quality to it. But what's the in-yan? What's the essence of what you're trying to do with Love the Land? And how does it differ from all of the other stuff that's out there on the Israel-Palestine narrative, on the Israel conversation, on what it is to be a Zionist? Alex: So I so first of all I was actually I think I was in Germany visiting a friend in Germany in early 2024. The war had been going for a few months. It was a very dark and depressing time. and I was also very upset about the lack of tourists and I committed myself. I was like, there's a thing called Substack, I write. I need to commit myself to writing sort of two pieces a week about the land. I'm gonna call it Love of the Land. So it's going to have this immediate sort of ambiguity, or it's gonna be sort of more open in a way. And I think the first piece sort of sums it up because the first piece, I it occurred to me that Hamas were using tunnels. And of course that the Gaza Metro, that's a sort of big was a has been a big part of the of the war. And it occurred to me they weren't the first people to use tunnels in warfare in the history of the land. Many people use tunnels and caves, and one of the most notable examples of that is the Bar Kochba revolt against the Romans in the early second century CE, the second major Jewish revolt against Rome. after the destruction of the second temple and i just thought it was interesting to just to look at how how did Hamas use the tunnels and how did the Bar Kokhba rebels use tunnels what was the difference what was maybe similar what was different what was the effect what worked what didn't and it occurred to me that I want people to see the sort of sweep of the land's history okay And love of the land really means, and I think this is it's important for both peoples, but to take the kind of Zionist focus, there's a sort of tendency, I think to say, well, there's the Jewish history of the land, and the other parts of it there's this there's this two thousand years in between the destruction of the temple and sort of modern Zionism, where non-Jews are ruling and it's not very interesting. First of all, there's loads of Jewish history in that time, right? That's when the the Mishnah gets written and the and the Yerusalmi gets written. And there's flourishing Jewish life in the Galilee, and then there's stuff in the Middle Ages. There's lots of actual Jewish history between the destruction of the temple and modern Zionism. but secondly, I think, and this might be somewhat of a radical vision, and I would also encourage the non-Zionist part of the map, and I would encourage the Palestinians to think this way too. Knowing the history of the land in all its facets enhances your enhances your pleasure, your love of the land. So you know, I've written about you know, I also write a lot, obviously a lot about the conflict, but I've written a lot about aspects of of Palestinian history, aspects of sort of architect like Ottoman architecture, for example, these things called the throne houses. And it's really enhanced my understanding. And seeing the sort of comparisons and seeing the different threads without seeing them just as part of this kind of this proves that we were here, right? This proves we were here first, this proves it's Moirs, but just for an appreciation of the land's history, has been very important to me and has really I think enhanced my understanding of the place. Oliver Joseph: Okay, so this, listen, this is, an interesting kind of aligning of the two projects because I'm not here to self promote at the same time, but the, I also felt that need. I felt that need during this time that on a totally different platform and a totally different kind of bent is to present what Judaism is. The project of Really Jewish is to present what Judaism is because A lot of the time, if we're talking about the UK press where we live and more broadly and more globally, a lot of the kind of presentation is all about this conflict and about anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism and Zionism and the Palestinian cause and all sorts of different stuff, which are certainly crucial and should not be belittled in any sense of the imagination, but aren't the essence of Judaism. So the attempt of Really Jewish at a time of so much, know, column inches and social media posts and about Jews and Judaism is to kind of try and boil down and hone in on with a focus way. So it sounds like the Love of the Land project is similar. Alex: I wanna come in there. because yeah, I think in my purpose in that sense it's twofold. Like I guess obviously a lot of my I don't know who all of my readers are, right? I just see their email and where they're coming from. have people in Israel, have people in the States, people in the UK, people in Europe, people from all over. I guess that lots of people are sort of Jew or Jew adjacent, but but I think there are definitely people who aren't and I like to think there are lots who aren't Because that's obviously very important. But in terms of those two audiences, I would say that for the sort of Jewish Zionist audience, I think there's perhaps not a real understanding of the Palestinians and the Arab history of the land and the non-Jewish history of the land. So that comes up a lot. And for the non-Jewish audience, I definitely don't think there's an understanding of the Jewish history of the land. In other words, a lot of people think that there's this sort of There's the Bible, and the Bible is really this basically mythical text that should have nothing to do with actually understanding history, and there isn't much else. Well, I always like to say to people, I say two things. I say number one, that even if you took even if there was never a Bible, right? The sort of archaeological remains and traces of Jewish heritage and history, the clear evidence. I don't like using the word indigenous. I really let's push that world to one side. But it's definitely clear that the ethnogenesis, I don't mind using the word ethnogenesis of the Jews takes place. Like like the start of Jewish civilization, the formation of the Jews as a people clearly begins in the land of Israel, and there's just overwhelming evidence for this from text. from synagogue remains, from all kinds of things. And then the thing I say about the Bible is, I compare it to like I look at let's say Native Americans, right? now there's archaeology, there's archaeological remains of of Native American civilizations and things. There's nothing like if we found tomorrow the equivalent of the Bible, right? Telling us the sort of story. Again leaving leaving for one side obviously the religious context, but even just as a sort of the historical elements of that text. If we found that tomorrow for Native Americans, it would be a completely remarkable discovery. But for Jews, I feel that the Bible, particularly because of the history of the Bible, how it gets universalized, and particularly the relationship with Christianity, the Bible gets dismissed so much, even though there's loads of history there's not lots of stuff that isn't history, right? But there's loads of there's loads of you know at the British Museum you can see loads of remains that relate to events that are clearly described in the Bible. and that's important. And one can acknowledge that without saying the Bible's a land deed and it means we should settle every hilltop and we should kick everyone Oliver Joseph: Right. Alex: else out. Because that's not where I'm coming from. But it is important to understand that. Oliver Joseph: But what you're doing is making a differentiation just for the sake of clarity for some of our listeners who are perhaps not Bible experts. You're making a differentiation between, let's say, the five books where you've got Adam and Eve, where you've got the story of Abraham, we've got Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, and Alex: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: Leah, which are broadly understood even in some Jewish corners as mythical stories. We don't know about the advent of those people in a historic sense. And you're separating it out from the biblical canon, where they speak of the prophets and the writings, where there is an interrelationship between the stories and the people mentioned in those books. And the most particular and kind of staple aspect of that is temple history, where we have archeological, I'm not a historian, so please come in and correct me if I'm wrong. We have archeological evidence which connects the physical temple with the story and description of the building of the temple which we find. Alex: In general terms, the later you go in the sort of in the later you go in the Bible, the more in the canon, the more historical it gets. it's not a perfect you definitely can never read you could definitely never read the Tanakh. You can't read any part of it, whether it's Torah, Nevi’im or ketuvim You can you can't read any part and be like This is like an accurate historical source that's describing me exactly what happened historically. That wasn't the purpose of the text, et cetera, et cetera. But there's definitely lots of historical material and lots of historical material that has been found. And at its heart, it becomes the tale of a people, people living in their lands and sort of trying to survive in very complicated testing geopolitical environments. And that's a big part. And then even and then you come after the biblical period, that story continues with texts from the Second Temple period and archaeological remains. And a lot of that today, unfortunately, is denied by people. There's a real I know I don't I can't get too political here, but there's a lot of that is there's really bad history out there. Oliver Joseph: There's a complexity, Alex, because on one level we are our own worst enemies on this. There are those in our community who are Bible thumpers who say, Katuv ba’torah that it's written in the Torah that this is our land and that we inherit this land full stop. But then at the same time use all of the archeological and all the Torah material, all the biblical material to make the case. And I think in the context of like a arc of modern Israeli history probably haven't always been the best at presenting the diversity of archeological and historical material to the world and have perhaps, and please tell me if you think differently, focused in on the Israelite and Jewish history in the land. I like the description that you made at the beginning, which is kind of really... taking a deep dive into the variety of the archaeological and historical material that's available. I think on the flip side, a lot of the stuff that I get on my social media, which is again, not a representation, but it's always hard to kind of not take some of the stuff personally, is like, there was never a people, there was never a land. You're, you I've said before on this podcast, like terrible stuff, know, your occupiers, your Zionists, this your murderers, your Alex: Right. Right. Oliver Joseph: stop killing people as bad as it gets. Not in any kind of volume, but the more posts we get, the more terrible things people say. I do think you're right, there is this kind of overarching, on the flip side, there's this overarching denial of any kind of story, because I think you're right, that the Bible has been rejected as a document. But when you go back to the archives and you go back to scholarship, clearly it's one of the key historical documents that's being used exactly as you described in balance with archaeological evidence and other secondary and tertiary evidence Alex: Right. Right. Oliver Joseph: which supports some of the claims that the Bibles makes about the history of the land. Alex: Right. Right. Oliver Joseph: those are two really profound extremes. So on one hand you've got kind of a very rightist presentation of the archaeological and historical material and on the other hand you've got an entire rejection Alex: minimalist to maximalist. Right? So historically what Oliver Joseph: of the... Go on. So what would you do with that? Like that... Alex: historically in scholarship it was the minimalists said the Bible is just this kind of mythical fantasy text, and the maximumists were like, it's a historical record. And really, most people I think should be somewhat in between. They should be like, It's not we shouldn't take it as a literal account of what happened, but we should use it in conjunction With other historical findings and where it's found wanting, we should reject it. And where not reject it sort of religiously, but reject the the sort of historicity. But in other places we can accept it. King David, that's a classic example, right? Until the early nineties, there was no mention of this King David outside of the Bible. And everyone and that led to a lot of scholars saying, well, King David is a mythical figure. And then in the early nineties, at a place called Teldan, they found the Tel Dan Steel, which mentions the house of David. The first time that David's name is mentioned outside of the context of the Bible. And from then everyone was like, Okay, David existed. And since then the debate has been was he this sort of relatively powerful ruler? As the Bible suggests, or was he more like a sort of village chief? And that debate goes on, and that's fine, you know. there's loads we're not everything Oliver Joseph: Did he fell Goliath with a single stone? Alex: you'll say. There's like lots we're not going to there's lots we're not going to know. but the point is to kind of keep examining the the point is to keep examining and to keep to try to tell the truth. You see, obviously I have biases, right? I have an emotional deep emotional attachment to this place and this people, even when it even when I find it very unbearable, right? it's not conditional. but on the other hand, like we have a commitment to we have a commitment to tell the truth. So for example, you know, a big popular myth is that. Still quite prevalent in the Jewish community is that the Palestinians, the Palestinians are lots of them are descended from Arabs who only moved to Palestine, to the land after the onset of Zionism, right? And this is a pop myth that you're even to this day, lots of people really think this is the case. It's simply not true. So there is some migration, right? There is some Arab migration into Palestine from the late 19th, early 20th century. Probably quite a significant number, but the interesting thing about the sort of demographics in the first part of the 20th century is that what really happens is just that Palestinians, the Arabs in the land, have huge birth rate, because that's what what's happening all over the Middle East and Asia during that time. There's a massive explosion in birth rate, primarily because babies are living longer. fewer babies are dying in childbirth. And at the same time, the Zionist movement, which is very successful in many ways, but it's unsuccessful in quite a critical way in attracting Jews to come to the land. Okay, in the first half century, hardly any Jews actually want to make aliyah, right? And it's not just because they can't. Okay, what once World War II hits, it's harder to come, but like in general, it's not because they can't. Because they prefer to go to the United States or perhaps Britain, right? That's just a fact, right? And you know, the phrase, it's a that phrase facts don't care about your feelings. I think that's a really great phrase, okay? Like it's okay, like it's okay to think it's important Israel exists and Israel is justified in existing, even if it's not perfect, etc. etc. It's okay to sort of think that and to also say things like, well, Zionism wasn't very successful. And attracting people to make Aliyah. Even now, by the way, Aliyah rates have re have always remained relatively small. What has changed, and what this is what's interesting, is what's changed in the sort of demographics now is the very high Jewish birth rate, which is of course higher than anything in the Western world. Even the non-Haraedi, even the non-religious population, even the secular Israelis are having more children than their secular counterparts. elsewhere. so that those are just the facts and that's really important, sort of telling the truth about the factual record. Even though it sounds dry, it sound it might sound dry, talking about the facts and stuff, the facts. But I think it's really, really important. Oliver Joseph: So one of the parts of the story is that we often find ourselves, I can speak personally, often find myself kind of dragged into this binary articulation of either in favor of the state or against the state. You're either pro-Palestinian or pro-Israeli. And part of what you're describing is to be more pro an examination of truth and historical context and the complexity of both national struggles in some way or another, which I think you write about. Alex: So I think like that there's generally like two clashing perspectives, right? One, okay, the Zionist narrative is the land is Jewish, it's always been Jewish, the Jews the only people for whom the land was really important. And there were other people living there, but they weren't like really deeply connected. They certainly weren't people. And we came and we made the land great again. And opposition to that is simply rooted in hostility to us in our presence. On the other hand, the sort of Palestinian narrative today is that the Palestinians are this ancient people who go back for thousands of years. There have been different conquerors, but the people have maintained themselves even as the conquerors have changed. And there have been Jews there, but they're just one of a number of people. And the there was this pluralist land that was sort of ruined by Zionists. And that's in broad, simple strokes. What I want to say is that the encounter between Jews and Arabs in the land, between Israelis and Palestinians, is a tragedy and not a morality tale. Okay? Both peoples often see it as a morality tale. We're the good guys, they're the bad guys. But when you let go of that, when you recognize it as a tragedy. In that both sides have a legitimate claim and a legitimate presence, and the coming together was always going to cause suffering and trouble and angst. You look at it suddenly in a different perspective. And that's how I primarily see it. Because the world, I think, also, I think that's how the world is. The world isn't a morality tale, it's not a simple place of good and evil. But the world is a tragic place where values are clashing up against each other. Oliver Joseph: So there's something of the story where when we analyze the values at stake and the dual narrative and the dual possibility to somehow interconnect with both sides of the story, then maybe, maybe at some point in time, we have the opportunity to not just make war and kill each other, but also endure and take steps forward. I want to hear a little bit about Alex in terms of like what just a little bit more about what it's like being a tour guide at this time when there have been very very few tourists on airplanes coming to Israel what's your work as you know doing this writing and the other work that you do and perhaps a little bit about what the future looks like for you Alex: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: it's nice just to hear the personal reflection on how this impacts on you and your family and community. Alex: so yeah, there's been I mean since the war has first of all we had COVID, right? I remember when COVID started, another tour guide, an older tour guide, said to me, Ha, you don't remember what it was like at least you you weren't a tour guide during the second interfada. Now that was hard, that was right at the beginning. And now I think back, I'm like, if only I'd been a guy during the second interfada, right? 'Cause because that like so first of all COVID was dreadful. With the lockdowns and things, and then w and then it starts to get back. And then the war was dreadful. And then just to illustrate it, since the Iran war started, I've had three days of guiding. We're talking now on the twentieth of July, the Iran war is on twentieth of February. I had quite a few bookings for March, you see, because see the ceasefire in Gaza was like last September. And then it started to come back and start now. So and that's what happened. Now The same thing is happening less again. I've got I'm now starting to get some bookings for next year. It's all very, very, very fragile because by the time you're listening to this, you might be every because it's coming out in late August. Maybe we need to overlay. By the time you're listening to this, war could have broken out again. I mean, it is broken out again. It's just America and Iran. Israel is not currently directly involved, but who knows? whether that would be the case by the time we get to late August. So that's been, you know, it's terrible because that that's my I always say to people, imagine Ollie, OJ, if you just weren't able to do rabbiing, right? You just weren't able to do the the rabbi stuff at all. or if you were if you're a doctor and you're not able to do doctoring at all or lawyering, I'm inventing all these words. So, you know, I had you know, I had a great last week I was I took some Hartman people out and the other two days since Iran have been dual narrative tours, which we've touched on, which is really important 'cause this has really been important shaping me, is I do I guide with a a dual narrative tour company called Mejdi where you get one Israeli guide and one Palestinian guide and we guide together. And we each give our perspective and we discuss and sometimes we argue and we and that has been a very, very important experience for me. I've been doing it for many years. and it's you know, it's a very interesting and it's yeah, it's the same thing as it's Help Me Love the Land because it's enhanced it's really enhanced my it's enhanced my commitment to the place. By by hearing things from the other side. It's not like we're always arguing or disagreeing, right? You should it's either the Palestinians standing there and saying there was never a temple here. That's never happened, right? those aren't our sort of discussions. So the discussions can sometimes go to quite sort of deep, and obviously painful places. and so that's been an important part of it. but the other stuff I do, you know, I write and I translate and I edit. I'm gonna be teaching a course on the history of the Middle East in the fall, in the autumn, sorry. I speak a bit like an American. and so I you know, I try to hustle. It's not always easy, but I'm always looking for you know, new gigs, new opportunities. Oliver Joseph: You have an Israeli partner. Have there been moments during this quite tough time, COVID, the various wars that Israel's faced, where you thought maybe it's time to pack it in? This Zionist project is not all it's cut out to be. Alex: so yeah, so my wife is Israeli and we have three kids. and no, I think a lot of people there's a lot of feeling, without getting too political, yeah, I mean look, when your life is just when things is so constantly disruptive and there's a feeling that it just never ends and the com especially especially the conflict and the violence. It's just never gonna end. That no one like right now, I just if you ask me to bet, I just think there's no way, for example, that there's gonna be real forget peace. I don't like use the word peace, but like an end to the conflict in my lifetime. it's more likely that England win a war much more likely that England win a World Cup, than that. so obviously you you think in those you sometimes think of your directions, but on the other hand, I you know, I look at my three I like living here generally despite lots of difficult aspects to it. And I think my kids that's this that's the thing. I actually have friend who's not Jewish married and married an Israeli and lived in Israel twenty had had a kid. And it's definitely not like hardcore Zionist, definitely on the left of the political spectrum in Israel. and he said once he's far glad he brought up his kid in Israel than in London where that where he's from. And and that's sort of how I feel about you know, I look at my kids like there's something really part of it is a lot of the things that I know are causing anxiety in the diaspora. particularly and including among young people, are just things that they just don't think about. And I'm really happy about that. I like I've got to say, perhaps I shouldn't be, perhaps I should be, no, they should be having these sophisticated, I mean they're nine, seven and two, right? So they're not like perhaps they should be like worrying about their Jewish identity and things like that. I think it's really great to sort of to grow up, you know, to see it from the other side, right? Growing up as a majority. Is a different. I think Rabbi Joel talks about this. I know you've had him on the show. He's got a good story about this, about seeing someone eating like a sandwich during Pesach or something. I can't remember. Anyway, but like it creates other problems, right? We have lots of other problems as a result of being a majority here. And I definitely don't think that we've passed the test, right? but I think it's better. have those problems, the problems of being a majority and the problems of dealing with having power, than to be a minority. I think that's a better I think it is a healthier way to be generally. Oliver Joseph: So thanks for sharing a little bit of the personal story because it's important to our listeners, important to me that part of that is reflected. And you you're the Alex that I know and love for lots of years. Tell us two words for, we're going to finish with two questions. One is about diaspora, the ones who live outside the land. And then just any words of inspiration or wrapping up that you want to share with us. What's the message of Love of the Land? What makes Love of the Land really Jewish? That's one question. Alex: Right. Oliver Joseph: And what's the message that you have? mean, certainly more than 90 % or 80 % of our listeners are outside of Israel. So what's the message that you have also for the people who aren't there and what we have to learn? Alex: What makes love of the land really Jewish? Well that's that's a tricky one. Well, because at it at its heart the story of the Jews is a remarkable story, but it begins, I think, with a people emerging in quite mysterious circumstances that still are not clear. And here I'm definitely leaving behind the Bible because I actually think the sort of archaeological story is far more mysterious and dare I say possibly interesting in a way. It's a people that emerge and sort of forge their sort of develop their unique ethno-religious civilization over the best part of a millennium or more, and then the story goes out into the world and other places take centre stage before now return the centre stage has returned. to this narrow strip of land in the Levant in the Eastern Mediterranean. And I think understanding that is I think that's core. That's like core to being Jewish. Like we're not just we're not just this we weird like we didn't just sort of suddenly appear in the diaspora, right? I think that's really important to understand that and to be proud of that and to be and to know the truth of that. Okay. and to know our story, to know our history is really important. and similarly I think for non-Jewish listeners is you know on Love Land, I I you I don't get it right all the time. As I say, I do have biases and things, but I really am trying to be fair and factual. And I would hope that if you're someone who's bored of all this polemic and nonstop bla bla bla blah bla bla over at Love of the Land you can get a different kind of tone and voice that I think is important. Oliver Joseph: the possibility that you're raising and I guess it can't exclusively be with Alex Stein and Love of the Land, but that we also deepen our knowledge in a time when you can just read like ping pong pieces, which maybe not exclusively, but certainly in lots of places, particularly on social media, ping pong pieces, which are either very pro or very anti. there's a possibility actually of deepening some of our historical knowledge and connection with that side of the story, has to be Alex: can I give an example? Oliver Joseph: multi-valence. Alex: I'll give a classic example, you know, the war in Gaza, right? like the sort of historic like people weren't getting, I think, in the sort of regular media, no what matter what it was, some really important things about Gaza. So I mean most obviously people understood sort of Gaza in nineteen forty eight, right? most Palestinians in Gaza were refugees or their descendants. Right, who fled or were kicked out in 1948 and end up in Gaza during the war? People didn't understand about like this idea of the Gaza Strip. Where does that come from? What was the history of Gaza before 1948? What was it before the mandate period? What was it in the ultimate period? What was the Jewish relationship to Gaza? Because that's really interesting as well. The Jewish relationship to Gaza is quite different from our relationship to the heartland. Of places like Hebron and Jerusalem, etc. Who was Nathan of Gaza, a legendary, Jewish figure who doesn't get quite the attention for various reasons? And you know, how does this tie in going back to Second Temple period to biblical? So I try that context is important because I think you are the it helps to understand. it helps people to understand. So whenever there is a chance. To provide some sort of historical background to current events, that I will try to offer it because I don't think it's being offered elsewhere but as much, but people should seek that out. You're right, they you don't just have to find it at Love of the Land. There's loads of resources and books and interesting work being done on all of those questions. Oliver Joseph: So looking back, Alex Stein, it's been really wonderful to have you on this podcast. It's been a juicy and super interesting conversation and we'd love to have Alex: Been great. Oliver Joseph: you back sometime. Just give us a couple of words to take us out and what you left with, what you're thinking about, messages you wanna leave us with. Alex: it's been a really great I've really enjoyed the conversation and it's definitely kept me awake the night after the World Cup final, which is very important. And yeah, I hope it's perhaps it's offering something different for listeners and I hope you know deepen your I hope your where wherever you are maybe inspire you to sort of deepen your knowledge and inquire further into the history of the most fascinating land or one of them at least on our planet. Oliver Joseph: Thanks for having us, thanks for coming on and see you again. So welcome back. It was a great conversation with Alex. man, it's just not easy to have these conversations online in a public forum, but I do think that as in my own story, part of the essence and the meaning of launching this really Jewish podcast, which has endured for six months now is to tell the story of what is to be Really Jewish in my perspective. So that's one Jewish person kind of portraying some of my perspective on these questions. But largely we've skirted around, not exclusively, we skirted around the Middle East, skirted around the interrelationship between the Palestinian people and the Israeli people, Israel-Palestine war conflict. Today we really got into the thick weeds of the conflict of the discrepancy between the Jewish narrative and the Palestinian narrative and some complicated terrain. But I think, you know, with a view that we're not trying to replicate some of the politics and the argumentation between the two sides on this podcast, I have. zero interest in being another political outlet because as I said before on this podcast, there are plenty of people doing that work out there. And it's not my expertise, but my vantage point is to deepen the conversation. And so the conversation with Alex was about, you know, the fable stories of the Torah, of the five books of Moses, which starts, as I said, on the podcast with Adam and Eve. and go through the story of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah, and then Moses and the transition moment to Joshua who takes us beyond the last book of the Torah, Deuteronomy, which we are in at the moment, the Book of Devarim And they're largely a-historic stories or non-historic stories without kind of archaeological and historical... Credence, not credence, kind of evidence. So different religious communities take them as divine stories or fable stories or divinely inspired stories. That's question for another time about how we understand those stories in a religious context. But the bit that Alex was presenting was that they are beyond the bounds of contemporary archaeological possibility of interpretation. But he was more in the place of the book of the prophets and the story of the temple and the story of the King David and the prophets who wandered the land of Israel. And for them, we do have historical and archaeological evidence that suggests that they walked the land. And how that investigation of some of the biblical material, the books which are inside the Jewish canon and the Christian canon as well, affects our understanding of the journey, the journey of the Jewish people, the journey of this land, and what it all means when you dig deeper into some of the historical, archeological, anthropological context over a really broad 2000 year plus arc, what does that mean for today? Is it all rubbish? The only thing that matters is now, the war that's on now, the conflict between people now? Or does it add layers and add meaning and add context and intrigue to the story? I think it does. I think it's important to understand the context. I it's important to understand the multi-layered reality of the country that we call Israel today. And I think if everybody could be a little bit more of a multi layered approach, both the pro and the anti lobby, the people who are staunchly Zionist and pro the future of the state of Israel and also the people who are really anti could dip a little bit into the layered reality of where we are. I think we'd just be that tiny bit closer to cessation of violence and you maybe one day. piece. that's my hope. So I really appreciate Alex coming on the podcast. I appreciate what he added to the story and I appreciate his work. Love to hear from you. As always love to have your feedback, especially on some of these topics, which are really the edge of what we do. So drop me a note and tell me what you thought. Good, bad, ugly. I do like to hear it. We get a fair amount of hate speech on some of our social media channels so it's nice to hear from people who actually have something with any kind of nuance to say. We are Really Jewish. We are a project of passion which launched now six months ago. We want to say thank you to Oi Va Voi for our musical intro and outro back to My Roots which is available on stream platforms. We want to say thank you to our listeners. If you're catching a clip of this on Instagram or Facebook or TikTok, please like it and share it and give us five stars wherever you listen to your podcast because that helps us to spread this message and share this podcast with other people. Similarly, we are a small team, one producer, editor and me with Yair Eldan, my co-host. So if you want to support this work and give us a small monthly donation on Patreon, you're very welcome. And if you want to support us with a big bucks and offer us a $5,000 donation to keep going for the next year, that would be fantastic. So be in contact if you have some resources to offer us or just want to get involved and help with the production of this podcast. Join us next week for Really Jewish with Yair Eldan and Oliver Joseph. Your ear is back soon and we're now in the run up to the Chaggim to Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur when you're listening to this. We've got some material which will hopefully deepen your really Jewish Chaggim Thanks for listening.