Latest / Women Disrupting Tech / How RVO Funds Inclusive Innovation with Merel Zimmerman & Bibi van Gijzel | Ep. 102

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How RVO Funds Inclusive Innovation with Merel Zimmerman & Bibi van Gijzel | Ep. 102 · Women Disrupting Tech

0:00
So you see that women often approach challenges and
0:03
opportunities differently in unique ways, which leads to
0:06
creative solutions and therefore, I think more
0:09
sustainable business models and yeah, supporting female
0:13
founders. Of course it advances to general
0:15
quality, but it also makes sure that some potential, especially
0:20
in tech, gets unlocked. So I think in my position it
0:23
doesn't really matter that I do not have the technical
0:26
background. And I also think it can be an
0:28
advantage. I work closely together with my
0:31
colleagues who have this technical background, and we
0:34
make each other stronger. Welcome to women disrupting TEF.
0:48
My name is Derika Lucas and on this podcast I give the women
0:52
who work in tech the platform they need to inspire and empower
0:56
each other. Join me on your journey into the
0:59
world of entrepreneurship, funding, biases, and role models
1:03
to discover the strategies for success in the tech industry.
1:08
In other words, how women can disrupt tech.
1:12
Are you ready to listen? Hey, welcome back to Women
1:21
Disrupting Tech and thank you for tuning in to episode 102.
1:26
This episode is special because for the first time, we're joined
1:30
by two incredible role models from a government institution.
1:35
Meryl Zimmerman and Bibi Fakhazel both work at the
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Netherlands Enterprise Agency in Dutch, also known as RVO.
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There are two women playing a key role in how early stage
1:48
startup capital gets distributed.
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And they're not just working behind the scenes.
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They're out there making themselves visible.
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In this episode of Women Disrupting Tech, we discover how
1:59
RVO funds inclusive innovation. BB and Mill talk about power of
2:04
visibility, what role diversity plays in government funding, and
2:08
why being non-technical is not a limitation but a strength.
2:13
Plus, you'll hear how ambition, impact and being a role model
2:17
can absolutely live inside government work.
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So when you're ready to listen and learn how RVO funds
2:24
inclusive innovation, please. Welcome to women Disrupting tech
2:28
BB von Haisel and Meryl Zimmerman BB von Haisel, Meryl
2:33
Zimmerman. Welcome to women disrupting
2:36
tech. Good to have you.
2:37
You're the first people from a government institution to to
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join, so really honored to have you.
2:47
A question I always ask at the start is how you got into your
2:51
current job or current position and meal.
2:53
Yes, sure. So currently I'm working at the
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RVO, so the Dutch the Netherlands Enterprise Agency as
3:00
an advisor primarily for the C Capital AC Business Angel Scheme
3:04
for about a year now I started my career, I started in
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economics and auditing. So I studied at Aerosmos
3:12
University and throughout my career I had various jobs,
3:15
various financial roles including auditing, M&A and
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working as an investment analyst at a family office.
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I really enjoyed these roles, but I really felt like I was
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missing the opportunity to make a real impact.
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So when I came across the my current position, I was very
3:31
enthusiastic immediately so decided to to apply.
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So far I've been really enjoying it, helping VC funds secure
3:38
funding and in director and supporting the Dutch startup
3:42
ecosystem as an advisor. So I I review VC funds
3:45
investments in start-ups, I assist them also with questions
3:49
related to the scheme and I also guide funds through the tender
3:53
process. So when they first start
3:55
applying for the scheme by providing support and feedback.
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So yeah, so far it's been really rewarding a role where I can
4:02
leverage my financial expertise to contribute to the growth of
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these, the innovative startups in the Netherlands.
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OK, cool. Phoebe, how about you?
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So now, well, it's nice to meet you Derek Young and great to be
4:16
on the podcast and hopefully good impression of the
4:19
government we can make. So I have a background in law.
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I studied corporate law in Amsterdam and started my career
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being a lawyer, which I did for 4 1/2 years.
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And I really enjoyed that. Met a lot of interesting people,
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worked really hard, of course, as you do when you are in law.
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But I think my story is quite of the same, is the same as middle
4:40
story. I missed making a concrete
4:43
impact. And I also have this
4:45
entrepreneurial drive myself. So I started to look around how
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can I use my expertise being financed and law because I was a
4:53
banking and finance lawyer and make a bit more impact than I
4:58
did already. And that's when I came across a
5:01
role at the RVO, which is being an advisor for the Innovation
5:05
Credit, which is a loan for companies that have a project
5:12
and they need financing for their project with technical
5:17
risk. So they get a loan and then they
5:19
can make this product, product which is good for the
5:22
Netherlands or worldwide. And I saw the application, I was
5:26
like, oh, this is something for me and I applied and it's really
5:29
nice. So I've been working there for 1
5:30
1/2 years now and enjoying it as well.
5:33
OK, so, so one of the things that struck me your answers is
5:37
that neither of you has a really specifically technical
5:40
background. How does it help you or maybe
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not help you? Yeah.
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So I think if in my position it doesn't really matter that I do
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not have that technical background and I also think it
5:50
can be an advantage. I work closely together with my
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colleagues who have this technical background and we make
5:56
each other stronger to say so when we get an application for
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the innovation credit, we assess it together.
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A colleague of mine with a technical background and myself
6:06
with the financial law background and we assess it
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together. I learned from him or her and
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they learn from me. And I think it's actually
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strengthening our position. And also I really wanted to say
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for me as a non-technical person, I can also become a role
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model for other women in tech. And I think that's also an
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important position for us. Yeah, to get to.
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So I think it's a strength as well.
6:37
OK, cool. Yeah, I think in my current role
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we do not assess the technical aspects of a company, but
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whether, whether the technical components comply with
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regulations. So we do encounter many
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technical elements. But yeah, so far I've been,
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yeah, really able to navigate them well because it's, I think
6:57
it's really important to grasp things quickly without diving
7:01
too deep too soon. And I think my previous work has
7:04
really experienced, helped me get experience in that case.
7:08
And I think what really helps is that I really, generally really
7:11
enjoy learning about companies and their technical components.
7:15
So that makes it, yeah, yeah, much easier and yeah, a lot of
7:18
fun. Neil, do you why do you think
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entrepreneurship, especially for women, is important?
7:24
Yeah, I find like also what I noticed during my job is that
7:28
female entrepreneurship is very essential because you can see
7:31
that it brings a lot of fresh and diverse perspectives.
7:35
So also drives innovation and yeah, leads to it like more
7:39
effective but also different way of problem solving.
7:43
So you see that women often approach challenges and
7:46
opportunities differently in unique ways, which leads to
7:50
creative solutions. And therefore, I think more
7:53
sustainable business models. And yeah, supporting FEMA
7:56
founders, of course, it advances to general quality, but it also
8:00
makes sure that some potential, especially in tech gets
8:04
unlocked. So what you always, I've seen a
8:08
lot of in research also is that it's that the first leadership
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outperforms other teams. So it really helped companies
8:15
and deliver better financial results and building a stronger,
8:18
more innovative companies. So I think by empowering the
8:22
women entrepreneurs, we get like a more inclusive and dynamic
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business ecosystem. So that's definitely very
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positive. OK.
8:30
And you, you also let's say put emphasis on this when you look
8:34
at when you validate the, the investment proposals that you
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get, so the order, the seed capital request.
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You mean when the funds apply? Yeah.
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Or OK, Yeah, we, we definitely take that into account.
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I think in multiple fronts. But like when the funds apply,
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we have different criterions that we, that we, but also the
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advisory Commission takes a look at.
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And these include, for example, gender balance among investors,
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but also the diversity within the fund management itself or
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how a fund approaches diversity at the portfolio level.
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So yeah, we really take that into account at the first
9:14
application process. So I think then it's the most
9:17
important part and we, yeah, for example, I write analysis about
9:21
the application and then I really have a look at those
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yeah, criterions and we really take that into account.
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So I think, yeah, that's very important for us.
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And also like we have a lot of funds of course, but we also
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have various funds that's really address the female funding gap.
9:38
Yeah, for example, Borsky fund, which is women LED venture
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capital fund. Yeah, that's that's.
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Probably the best known one. Yeah, I think yeah, definitely.
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But that's also that's a seat. So the other two that I have in
9:50
mind are like the business Angel fund, but this is like the
9:52
really the big fund. And yeah, like I said, it's a
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women LED fund and they focus on tech and innovation, but they
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invest, they really believe that investing in few more
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entrepreneurships that it aims to bridge the gender gap in the
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venture capital scene and also promote innovation led by women.
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Then I think we have two, a little bit less known ones as
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Earthstar. It's a business Angel fund which
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is quite new. They just started and they are
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led by two female founders, 2 female investors, which with a
10:22
focus on impact investment in food tech and climate tech.
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And they are are also committed to bridging the diversity gap by
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actively seeking out on on being diverse founding teams,
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particularly led by women. And our fund is the Gov Capital,
10:37
which is also a business Angel fund, which is really focused on
10:40
diversity and promoting diversity and assuring that more
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women are in the decision making position, which they believe
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also that it can lead to better strategy development and more
10:51
successful execution. It's an early stage that
10:53
companies that they invest in. But yeah, I think that's are
10:57
just a few examples, but we have a lot of funds that are really
11:00
led by women, but also investing in.
11:03
Female that startups, OK, so Bibi use you mentioned the
11:09
importance of role models. Yeah, and you said that in some
11:13
way, shape or form, you're also trying to be a role model for
11:16
women in tech. Yeah, well, what I was trying to
11:20
say is if you see more women in tech, you you get more, more
11:27
approachable. So I think as an investment
11:29
manager, you want to be seen more on LinkedIn, umm, on social
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media, on on the Internet or just word by word because you
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want to improve female entrepreneurship, but you also
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need investment managers for that.
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So that's what I wanted to say. So I think there's a role for
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the RVO and that's what we also trying to do to get more
11:52
visibility, for example, from Middle and myself to make sure
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sure that these female entrepreneurs see us and think,
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oh, they are approachable. Let's have a chat to see what
12:03
the options are because we are maybe at the beginning of their
12:06
financing journey and they want to help with that.
12:10
Yeah. So do you see that also back in
12:12
the applications like that? You see, if you become more
12:16
visible, you attract more, let's say female investors or female
12:20
founders in tech, because now all of a sudden they have the
12:25
the a person to talk to who's like them.
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I think we're still at the start of the journey.
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So I don't think we can see it immediately right now, but I
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think that's our aim. We want to make sure that we are
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visible. And I think for the innovation
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credit it's, it's difficult because we see in our portfolio
12:45
there are a lot of mill let companies right now and I don't
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we, we don't know exactly why. Yeah, it's, I think it's a
12:54
difficult story why that is. But we want to change something
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and visibility from our side helps.
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So I think that's what we want to achieve.
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OK. But I think it's good and and to
13:07
your point, I think it is it will actually over time help.
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I don't think it's enough to sort of equalize the balance
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between male and female founders, but in tech, but
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anyway, it will it does does work well, I think it will work
13:25
out over time. So a question I had was, so RVO
13:30
is a government agency. It's part of the Ministry of
13:33
Economic Affairs. How does it fit into the funding
13:36
landscape because there are several government or government
13:40
related agencies or entities like the regional development
13:44
companies like Invest NL on the on the countrywide level and
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there's, there's, there's a couple of others.
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How does RVO fit into that? I think we all have a common
13:56
goal which is Dr. innovation within the Netherlands.
13:59
So that's great. I think where we may be
14:02
different or where, yeah, where we may be different is we
14:07
provide knowledge finance guidance on for early, for the
14:12
really early stage. And I think there's a difference
14:15
for example, with the rooms they focus on, they are also early
14:18
stage, but they focus more on the regions and for example,
14:21
invest in our focus more on scale ups and we are more at the
14:25
forefront with all these diverse finance options.
14:29
So we have a lot of different ways to help companies.
14:34
So basically if I, if I were this correctly and correct me if
14:38
I'm wrong, companies will go to you first at the start of the
14:43
lifetime and then over time either go to Rome or straight to
14:49
investor. Now if they managed to reach the
14:53
scale up phase where they really want to go, international
14:57
etcetera. Yeah.
14:58
And I think it also depends. Sometimes you see that we
15:01
coexist together with the rooms in financing because they have a
15:05
more regional focus and we focus more on the Netherlands as a
15:08
whole. But usually we are at the
15:10
forefront and at the start of the company's financing journey
15:15
or startup journey because we also provide guidance, of
15:18
course. OK.
15:20
So I want to dig into the innovation credit for a bit BB,
15:25
maybe really shortly. So an innovation credit is a
15:29
loan. So it's project finance.
15:32
So it's a loan which is provided by the RVO for a project.
15:37
So I think I already mentioned in the beginning.
15:40
So if you have this innovation which has technical difficulties
15:44
or clinical difficulties because we are there for Metech, for
15:49
deep tech and you name it, as long as there is a high
15:53
technological risk. So I think that's different than
15:56
for investors. We want to see, OK, if there is
15:59
a risk, a technical risk and that that happens or that
16:03
occurs, then the project fails and your innovation may not
16:07
happen. That's where we step in because
16:09
we see the importance for the Netherlands for such innovation.
16:13
Of course, there needs to be a technical feasibility.
16:16
So we test that at the start, but we are there for these the
16:20
yeah, the innovative project. OK.
16:23
How do you test your feasibility?
16:25
What do you look for and how do you balance that with really
16:29
making it accessible? Yeah.
16:31
So I think that's indeed difficult, but we have all, all
16:35
these different experts with the RVO.
16:37
So I have the fine, I'm a finance expert, but my colleague
16:41
is, has studied or has a PhD in tech, deep tech or bio.
16:46
So they have all these different, we have all these
16:49
different types of experts with us.
16:51
So they know what is new in the industry.
16:55
So we go to these companies, they explain us, they show us,
16:59
they take us along what the market wants and we we really
17:02
dive into the project, the business.
17:06
So we really assess what is new in that company and whether it's
17:09
innovative. So we make that assessment among
17:12
ourselves and then we decide whether it fits within the
17:16
innovation credit. OK.
17:17
And does it need to be new? New like never done before?
17:21
Because those usually have a high technological risk because
17:25
no one has done it before, like going to Mars.
17:27
That would be the obvious one. Or can it be, let's say, an
17:31
existing idea that is twisted a bit in a positive way to make it
17:38
fit a certain situation? So like a health solution that
17:43
is specifically was specifically designed for men and now it's
17:46
also made available for women. Yeah.
17:49
So it doesn't need to be new, new as long as it is as you say
17:53
it is for a new market or the application is new.
17:57
So we don't really focus on being a new, new as long as
18:00
there are technical risk and there are customers that really
18:04
want to buy it. So we need to make sure that the
18:06
market traction is there. So that's a really important
18:10
component for us as well. OK.
18:12
So how do I show that that there's market demand if I'm
18:16
creating a product that is? Yes.
18:20
Let's take the example of a product that is sort of where
18:24
the application is used. So the product may exist in some
18:28
way, shape or form, but it's new application.
18:30
How do I show that there's demand for it, other than going
18:35
back to the old way of using it, which is obviously where the
18:39
risk is? Yeah.
18:40
So, so when you show that in the development of the product,
18:45
there is technical risk you want to for for the development of
18:50
the product you need to test. OK, what does my product, what
18:54
is it needs to be ABC before I can sell it?
18:57
So what we expect from companies is that they reach out and do
19:02
their market research, but also talk to potential customers.
19:05
So if my product does AB and C, will you then buy it?
19:10
And if then someone says yeah, yes, I will buy it, then that is
19:13
OK for us. So what we usually see is that
19:15
potential companies that apply for the innovation credit, they
19:19
share with us letters of intent from potential customers slowing
19:23
the market demand. OK.
19:25
And that's that equates to some sort of value that they can
19:30
produce over time. Exactly.
19:32
Is it also because usually if I go to bank, what they says is my
19:37
capabilities of paying back to law, How do you look at that, at
19:41
our view? Is that the same?
19:43
Of course, it's different because we are here to drive
19:46
innovation and it's a revolving loan.
19:50
So we want, in the end, we do really want to see the loan
19:54
being repaid. But of course things can change
19:57
and we are OK with that. We are willing to take a certain
20:00
risk if in the end we can make the Netherlands a better place.
20:04
So we do assess it and that's why the market demand is so
20:08
important and to see, OK, so if this product is developed in the
20:13
way that you say it and these technical risk are overcome,
20:16
then you have a sellable product.
20:18
The feeling with that also translates for us in the
20:22
possibility of a repayment. So that's why we really focus on
20:26
that point, that aspect as well. But it's not the same as a Bank,
20:29
of course, because they really need to have it repaid and we
20:33
want to drive innovation. Yeah.
20:35
So the goal is different. Yeah, the goal is different,
20:38
Yeah. OK, cool.
20:39
So So what? What kind of information do I
20:42
need? So I need letters of intent from
20:43
possible customers. I need to have done some sort of
20:47
market analysis that shows that there's demand for my product.
20:52
What else do I need to is is a big pile of paper that I have to
20:56
submit? Yeah.
20:57
So it's, it's quite extensive, but it is very helpful also for
21:02
the company themselves. That's what we hear always.
21:05
So what you need to submit for your application is a financial
21:09
plan, a business plan and a project plan.
21:12
Your in your financial plan you describe the budget, how much
21:17
it's going to cost, how much Co financing you will need to
21:21
arrange because we usually finance 45% of the whole
21:25
project. In the business plan, we want to
21:27
see a description of the team because we also assess the team,
21:32
whether they have experience in this field, is it a diverse
21:35
team. So we want to make sure that the
21:38
company is and the business plan and the business case, how much
21:41
it's going to cost is really explained well in there.
21:44
And then in the project plan, we want to see, OK, what do you
21:47
have now and what do you have at the end of the project and how
21:51
are you going to develop your product and what technical risk
21:55
are are there in this project and how are you going to address
21:58
them. So the project plan is there for
22:00
the really cool technical stuff. So those three documents you
22:04
need to submit. And if I understand correctly,
22:08
this is and we'll get to the investor part in a bit, but
22:12
investors look at, let's say an horizon of 10 years and this is
22:17
looking at an horizon of the project, which can be maybe 5,
22:21
maybe 10 years. Five years is the Max.
22:25
So we usually see on average three years, but the project can
22:30
be five years in total. So we do look at the project in
22:34
its total, in its total really well.
22:37
And then of course we also make an assessment for when the
22:39
project is finished. What is your plan?
22:41
Are you going to do an exit? Do you sell?
22:44
Do you see yourself involved on the whole journey of your
22:47
company? So we assess that as well.
22:51
What if the answer is no, I don't see myself because I've
22:54
talked to a number of founders who are like, OK, I can set this
22:57
up for three years and then I need to move on because I'm
23:00
simply not the person to manage a going concern.
23:04
Business, that's fine as long as you have a good story and of
23:07
course tell us OK, what kind of companies do you want to exit
23:10
because that's why we also taking a few on.
23:14
So I think that's as long as you have your story and can explain
23:16
what you want to do, then that's fine because we also understand,
23:21
of course, that's the reality of a startup.
23:24
So out of out of curiosity, what is, do you know what the
23:29
breakdown is between female and male founders in the credit
23:33
portfolio that you have? Yes.
23:35
So I think as I said, we do not see a lot of female founders.
23:39
I do not have the the exact breakdown, but I can tell it's
23:43
very little and we want to see a change in that.
23:46
So I think as I said before, we, we hope to see a change and
23:51
hopefully people listening to this or the women listening to
23:54
this think, okay, let's go. I will contact Mirror on BB so
23:58
that we can get maybe financing that would be great.
24:02
If we can persuade one woman to to try, that would be great.
24:07
Yeah. So I want to switch over to Miro
24:09
for a minute to talk about seed capital.
24:12
I was curious because I was in in Silicon Valley last year and
24:16
well, this is of course the USA and they're not really
24:21
government minded. Let's say they want to
24:24
government to keep out of as much as of as much of normal
24:29
life as as humanly possible. So why do you why is it a good
24:34
idea for government to support seat cap?
24:36
Yeah. I think for us and also for me,
24:39
what what is important is that there is some companies have a
24:42
specific risk to them in which a lot of VC funds, they think it's
24:48
too risky because the risk and reward is, yeah, it's, it's not
24:52
a good risk and reward. Trade off, Yeah, trade off.
24:55
So I think that's where we with the seat capital, but also with
24:59
the seat business interest scheme come in to make sure that
25:02
those companies that are too risky for a lot of VC to invest
25:06
in, that we can decrease that risk with the scheme that we
25:10
have. I can of course tell a little
25:11
bit more about that. But yeah, I think that's the
25:14
main, main goal. And also why I think it's very
25:17
important for us to step in to make sure that that risk and
25:20
reward is a little bit more attractive for the VC funds, but
25:24
also the investors that invest in the VC fund.
25:27
OK. So how do you change the trade
25:29
off then? Well, we provide the VC funds
25:34
with interest free loan. I think that's, I think, I think
25:39
there are a lot of things to it, but one is the interest free
25:42
loan that we provide. And 2nd is the repayment
25:45
schedule. Normally, of course you would
25:48
think that the repayment schedule, we for example,
25:51
provide half, half of the investment budget that we would
25:54
also ask for 50% of the returns. But that's not the case.
25:59
So I think our repayment schedule was very, it's very
26:02
positive because there's like a certain trade off that in the
26:05
beginning when there's like only a few, there's, there has been a
26:10
few income, but not the total investment.
26:14
The investments have not been, yeah.
26:17
Not have not matured and they haven't added an exit.
26:21
Yeah. So I think then that like the
26:23
payment is 80 percent, 20%, so the RVO gets 20% of the incomes
26:30
and the fund gets 80%. And then till the fund fully got
26:35
his return, it's divided 5050. And yeah, when the investors get
26:39
their money back, then it's again an FEO as well, then it's
26:42
again 80. So I think the repayment
26:44
schedule is also very positive in that way.
26:47
So I think those two points are like the main reason that it's
26:50
very positive for AVC fund to apply.
26:54
OK, so let me let me see if I understand this.
26:57
My I'm not a math wizard to be honest.
27:01
In initial, in the first phase, let's say in the first three to
27:05
five years of every euro, I get paid back as AVC fund I pay 2020
27:17
of that I pay back. To the.
27:20
RVO to the extent that there is still a loan to be paid off, of
27:25
course. It's interest.
27:26
Free. So in the face where there's
27:29
more liquidity and it's 5050 when everyone has been paid off
27:35
or is being paid so the fund matures, it's $0.80 on the euro
27:42
that goes to RVO. And then 20. 20 OK.
27:46
And 80 to the fund. OK.
27:48
OK. So and that of course is only to
27:50
the extent that the loan is still there.
27:53
No, I think it's no, it's, it's not until the loan is paid off,
27:58
it's like the 8020 will will continue till the end of the
28:03
investment period, so 10 to 12 years when it's finished then of
28:06
course we break ties a little bit.
28:08
But then, yeah, it's we will make sure that the collaboration
28:14
stops and then they don't have to pay back because, yeah, the
28:16
fund, it is a closed end fund. I think that's important to
28:18
mention that it's a closed end fund.
28:20
So in the beginning when funds apply, they say like it's 10
28:24
maximum of 12 years and then they do have the possibility to
28:27
extend. But yeah, the point is that it's
28:30
a closed end fund for 10 to 12 years, and then the fund should
28:33
be closed and all exits should have materialized.
28:36
Cool. Now I just want to understand to
28:40
see if I understood correctly. So what what kind of amounts are
28:43
we talking about? Because this is pre seat and
28:46
seat stage right? Yes, yes.
28:49
So this we, we, it's a tender process.
28:52
So we have two tenders this year, but this current tender is
28:56
in. There's an available budget for
28:58
45,000,000, which 20 million is allocated to start up funds,
29:03
like general start up funds. And 25,000,000 is like
29:07
specifically for deep tech funds.
29:09
Deep tech, yeah. Funds investing in deep tech
29:12
start-ups, yeah. Yeah.
29:14
So it's 45,000,000 and then the maximum for each fund is 12
29:17
million. So of course we see funds apply
29:20
for the full 20, the full 12 million, but some apply for less
29:25
than that. OK.
29:27
And and the 12 amount that I apply for is not the full
29:33
franchise I would presume. So we provide, yeah, 50% of the
29:38
total investment budget. OK.
29:40
So if if I can find 12 million in terms of from investors
29:47
committees? Yeah.
29:49
Do I have to show that in the bank already?
29:52
Yeah. So I think when the moment that
29:54
a fund applies, there are sort of course you have to admit like
29:58
a fund plan, so including your whole plan.
30:01
And then we of course we assess that fund plan.
30:03
But also another thing that's very important is what you said
30:05
that you can show the commitments, which means of
30:08
course if we provide like a 12 million loan, then in the end
30:12
you need to have 12 million in commitments.
30:13
But at the point that you admit your fund application, then you
30:17
need 50%, You have to show us like 50% has been committed.
30:22
6,000,000 yeah if I ask for 12 I need to show 6IN in committed.
30:28
Yeah, at the moment of application.
30:30
But then when you, when we, yeah, when you're ranked because
30:34
it's a ranking process. And if you're, yeah, if you're
30:37
ranked and you get the, you get the loan, then of course you
30:41
have a few months to make sure that you have the full
30:45
commitments because yeah, you need to have those before you
30:49
can start. And then you have to make sure
30:52
that you can, yeah, apply that, supply that to us.
30:55
OK. So we talked a bit about Angel
30:58
funds. Yes.
31:00
So this is Seed Capital, indeed Seed Capital scheme and we also
31:03
have the Seed Business Angel scheme.
31:05
OK. So how does how does that differ
31:07
that scheme? And yeah, I have some follow up
31:11
question, but anyway. Yeah, no, of course.
31:14
So the capital scheme what we just discussed is really for
31:19
fund for investment funds. So like I said also the it's 12
31:23
million. So it normally is like a a
31:24
bigger fund. The yeah, I see business angels
31:28
scheme is more for business angels.
31:32
So yeah, it's for business angels who want to pool their
31:35
resources to support tech and creative start-ups, which means
31:38
that that there's a group of business angels.
31:41
There has to be like more than one.
31:43
So there's a minimum of two business angels and they need to
31:47
invest at least €100,000 per person and there's a maximum of
31:52
1,000,000 alone per fund. So that already answers part of
31:56
my first question because I have been talking to a number of
32:00
Angel collectives, let's say one of which was the Angel
32:03
Initiative. Then there's also Joanna Infs,
32:06
which is technically not an Angel investments, but it's,
32:11
it's more fun. But it's, it's the individual
32:14
tickets are 5000 and up, I think.
32:18
And for the Angel initiative, it's I think it's 2 1/2 thousand
32:21
and up. So those would not fall into
32:25
this specific bucket. No.
32:27
So it is like, I think the two things that are very important
32:30
is that the business angels have to commit their time.
32:33
So they they can't just give money and fun.
32:37
So exactly. So there are two things.
32:39
One is the at least 100,000 per person and because we want to
32:43
make sure that they are committed both with their time,
32:45
but also yeah, with their final financial resources.
32:48
So I think those are the two important criteria to apply.
32:51
So indeed 100,000 per person and a time commitment.
32:55
OK. And just our need to be sort of
32:58
what is called sweat equity involved.
33:00
I commit time and and and my knowledge of course.
33:04
And then can I, am I allowed as a business Angel to convert this
33:08
into equity in that particular start up?
33:11
So that's not really what we're looking for, let's say like
33:14
that. So I think when they start
33:17
applying, they will show their fund plan and we will discuss
33:20
how the scheme works. They will make a fund plan, we
33:22
will review it, give feedback. And I think what we find very
33:25
important is that they provide the help not for free.
33:31
Yeah, they, they need, they want, they have to want to
33:33
invest in the companies. Yeah, they have to like it.
33:37
They want to show their network, provide the network
33:41
possibilities. So yeah, if they already
33:43
upfront, they're already thinking about sweat equity,
33:46
that's not really what we're looking for.
33:48
I mean, maybe there are some situations where we can maybe
33:51
make an exception, but I think that's not yeah, we're looking
33:54
for that. They really want to invest their
33:55
time and their money. OK, cool.
33:58
So the the reason I brought up the Angel initiative and Joanne
34:01
can I invest is that they invest particularly in female founders.
34:06
Yeah. So on the on the seat capital
34:10
and on the business Angel side, how I don't think you're allowed
34:13
to promote it, but how do you facilitate it that women try or
34:20
that that business angels try to invest in female founders?
34:27
So I think we do that maybe only at the beginning.
34:30
So when they apply, I think I kind of already discussed that a
34:34
little bit in the beginning. So when they apply, we really
34:36
take that into account. So it's really, for example, I'm
34:39
as an advisor when the they, yeah, they get their fund plan,
34:43
I make an assessment and then also like an, an independent
34:47
advisor committee also looks at it.
34:49
And then we really take in account what kind of team there
34:53
is. And yeah, if it's really
34:55
inclusive, diverse. So that's the part where we, me
34:58
and the advisory committee, we really look at it and we really
35:01
take it into account. So I think, yeah, as I have
35:05
experienced with it, it's really something that I have a look at
35:08
myself and we find very, very important.
35:11
But do you then look at the investor base that is diverse or
35:14
do you then look at the portfolio?
35:21
Yeah. So it's really the investment
35:23
team, the stakeholders, the, the, yeah, the where they invest
35:28
in. So the companies, the portfolio,
35:29
where they invest in, I think it's all of them.
35:32
We take everything into account. And of course it's not the only
35:35
thing then we take into account, but it's really something that
35:37
we, yeah, have yeah, we have a look at.
35:40
And I think it's important that we really look at the added
35:43
value of a fund because of course, we get a lot of fund
35:45
plans from a lot of funds for the C Business Angel scheme, but
35:48
also the C Capital scheme. So we really look at what is
35:52
their added value. And I think this is really
35:54
something where they can really have a added value.
35:58
If of course, if a fund applies and they have they really take
36:01
this into account, then yeah, it's really an extra plus.
36:04
OK. So you take it as a as a plus
36:08
that that actually puts them higher in the in the ranking.
36:11
And it's, I think it's both. We see it as a plot.
36:14
First of all, we kind of not demand it, but we really want to
36:18
see it. So if it's not diverse, it's
36:20
also a minus. So yeah, we we see it as like a
36:23
base point that's diverse. But if it's really diverse, we
36:25
really see it as an added value. And then we take it into account
36:28
in the ranking. It's part of the ranking.
36:30
OK. Do you do you then also follow
36:32
this along once you've given the loan that you actually monitor
36:36
if the portfolio if they make actually they actually make the
36:41
investments that in in. The we definitely do, I think so
36:45
that's what that's also like part of my job is at the
36:48
beginning. So when they apply to help them,
36:51
but also my job is to make sure that they do investments
36:54
according to their fund plan. So they make a fund plan.
36:57
So to close that fund, they have a fund plan.
36:59
They say what they're going to do.
37:00
And then my job is to make sure with every investment that they
37:03
do that it's according to the fund plan.
37:05
So if they in their in their fund play, they say that we only
37:08
invest in companies with female founder, then I take a look,
37:12
when they invest, do they actually does the company
37:15
actually has a female founder? No.
37:17
Then yeah, it's not according to their fund plan, of course.
37:21
What happens then? So that really depends on what
37:25
kind of it is. If it's like a big deal, if it's
37:28
if their fund plan says we invest in female tech and then
37:32
they want to invest in something there's no female and no tech,
37:34
then we actually declined it. But but.
37:38
But do you then over, let's say if you maybe I'm understanding
37:42
this wrong, but do you then also over time, let's say like
37:47
halfway the loan, you find out that they they've done or one of
37:52
the companies has lost its female founders or pivoted to
37:57
something totally different from what they initially were in?
38:00
Which you mean the the fund the fund company they invest in?
38:04
The company that they invest in, so the actual fund portfolio.
38:08
Yeah. So if the if the fund changes,
38:12
so if they have a few more founder and chiefs, then it's
38:16
like it's their fund. So then we talk about it and we
38:18
want to hear about it. Why?
38:19
But if it's like in the company, I think like they, they can't do
38:24
anything about it. So when they invested, we look
38:26
at it. But later on, if someone from
38:29
that company leaves, yeah, we don't know.
38:31
We don't look at it anymore. OK, OK.
38:33
Because yeah, they are. It's not their fault.
38:35
And they, yeah, they, when they invested, it was according to
38:39
the rules. OK, so it's assessed upfront and
38:42
it's you do follow it, but there's no penalty if the the
38:45
female founder leaves. No, no.
38:48
OK. And how does this work on the
38:51
front level then? Because she said you are going
38:54
to talk about it and. Yeah.
38:55
So I think at the beginning, they make a fund plan and they
39:00
have to keep to it. So if something happens which
39:03
leads to not being able to comply with a fund plan, then
39:07
they have to mention it. So it's not something that we
39:09
want to look after the whole time.
39:11
They have to come up with that. That's also what we tell them.
39:14
So they have to tell us like, OK, someone's leaving and then
39:17
yeah, of course we're going to talk about it.
39:19
What happens, for example, if someone leaves, OK, then who's
39:22
coming back? What is there?
39:24
What are the capabilities? So we talk about it.
39:26
I don't think we immediately give a penalty or something.
39:28
It's just we want to be updated about it.
39:31
And sometimes it leads to OK, that we discussed it.
39:35
You can, they can continue and not with the female founder, but
39:39
I mean with some other things that are more serious and we
39:42
don't give fines or something. Founders are quite serious
39:45
business, I can tell you. Yeah.
39:47
But I mean it in a way that if they can really, if they do it
39:50
on purpose, like if they do something that that's not
39:55
according to the rules and on purpose, yeah, they do that on
39:58
purpose. So of course it's very
40:00
important. I I understand what you mean.
40:02
If, if, if a woman decides to leave out of her own will, then
40:08
of course it's a different thing from when she's bullied out.
40:12
Yes, exactly. So of course it's important, but
40:17
we're not giving a fine because someone leaves.
40:20
No, no clear. OK, so let's go a bit to the
40:25
more institutional part of the investment discussion.
40:29
So my experience is that if if you have women involved in
40:34
investment decisions, they tend to be more, let's say they look
40:39
more for diverse teams and they look more for women.
40:43
Are there women in in these startups?
40:45
Because they are and they are also more willing to invest.
40:49
Oh, there's a woman. 25% of the cap table is owned by a woman.
40:56
Oh, then it's a company that we want to invest in, let's say.
41:01
How does this work at in your respective jobs PB?
41:07
Is this? Is this something that you
41:09
really also? Yeah.
41:10
So I think with decision making within the innovation credit, so
41:15
me and my colleague get of course the application first we
41:20
take a view on it and write an advice.
41:23
So we assess all the important things relating to this
41:27
application. Then it which goes to an
41:30
advisory committee, which is also a group of experts out in
41:35
the field, which consists of four or five people, currently
41:39
one woman in there. So I think that's good.
41:42
Maybe not enough, but that's another topic.
41:44
It's a start. It's a start, exactly.
41:49
How many members, by the way? 445, OK.
41:53
So I think it's 25%. And then we have a mandated
41:57
decision maker, which is a colleague of mine.
42:00
Yeah. So I think in the end, it's like
42:03
a tier system. So we start, then it's the
42:05
advisory committee who provides an advice and then we have the
42:08
mandated decision maker. And I think the most important
42:11
part here is we make a decision as a team.
42:13
So I think of course, ultimately the mandated decision maker has
42:17
the final say in it. But he signs, he or she signs
42:21
off. Exactly.
42:23
But we as a team, so it starts with us, then advisory committee
42:27
and then the mandate, the decision maker make signs off.
42:31
But I think ultimately we all do it together and I think that's
42:35
really good with the innovation credit, it feels very good.
42:38
Good to also if I feel like, OK, this is not a diverse enough or
42:42
I think this is a very strong point of the application that we
42:45
mention it and that it's also seen for example with the
42:48
advisory committee, but also with the mandated decision
42:51
maker. So I think I think that's good.
42:54
Yeah. OK, so, so basically having
42:57
women there to to go back to my hypothesis leads to more
43:01
visibility of of especially the female founders.
43:05
I was to thank your and male. Do you see that the shift
43:09
outcomes to like like BB suggested, there's more
43:13
visibility for female founders, for female investors in the in
43:18
the, in the loans that are giving to to the seed funds and
43:23
business angels. To be honest, I don't really, I
43:27
don't really see that. That's not really I think at our
43:29
process we only take it into account in the criteria.
43:32
So it's not really, of course we have an advisory committee,
43:35
committee with a lot of women in there, OK, that doesn't have an
43:39
influence on the on the outcome. OK, what do they advise on them?
43:43
What what? What kind of advice come out?
43:47
Yeah. So the, it's for, for example,
43:49
for the tender we have. So first an advisor makes the
43:52
analysis and that goes to the advisory committee, which like I
43:57
said, includes a lot of women, but also men.
43:59
And then they're they they share their opinion, they give a grade
44:03
and then there's a ranking. But it's it's based on all the
44:05
criteria and inclusivity and gender equality is all part of
44:10
the criteria process. But it's not really.
44:12
Yeah. Yeah.
44:13
So it's not really. I can't really answer it because
44:16
it's not really it's. Sort of built in, though, into
44:20
the criteria of fitting, yeah. So it's in the, I think like
44:23
what I also mentioned in the previous questions, I think it's
44:26
really built in the criteria process.
44:29
So everyone, so me, the Advisory Commission all look at it as
44:34
part of the criteria. OK.
44:36
Yeah, I think that's the same. I mean, we are there to of
44:40
course assess a fund or a company as a whole and there are
44:46
certain criteria in which the company or the fund, yeah, it it
44:52
must tick that box and certain points are just a plus or a
44:57
negative. And if there are too many
44:58
negatives or there are a lot of pluses, then that adds to the
45:02
decision. And of course, when you have a
45:05
diverse team, certain things are pointed out more as exactly why
45:10
diversity is very important because you bring more
45:12
perspectives to the table. And I think the same with this
45:15
decision making. You need diverse decision makers
45:19
because then you have all these different perspectives and that
45:22
goes from females to other backgrounds.
45:25
Yeah, there's there's many more aspects to to diversity than
45:29
just just gender. So my mission is to make
45:31
inclusion and text a new normal by the end of 2032.
45:38
From your perspective, what would be your advice to make
45:41
that happen baby? I think it's a very important
45:45
goal. I think diversity in general
45:48
needs to be on everyone, everyone's top of mind.
45:50
I think as I said, or as we said, it is very important and
45:54
it's not. It has not only to do with
45:56
equality, but it also has to do with it being an equal economic
46:00
drive. And I think what we should do
46:02
together is talk about it, make sure that it is on everyone top,
46:06
top of mind, why it is important and what the advantages,
46:10
advantages are for everyone. So I think like you do right
46:15
now, just talk about it with with a lot of different people
46:18
and take into account all these different views and yeah, just
46:21
talk about it. I think that's that's that's
46:23
very important. OK, cool miracle.
46:26
Anything to add? Well, I really, I fully agree
46:29
with BBI think it requires like really systematic changes in
46:34
funding leadership in culture. So we really need to increase
46:39
access to capital for female net start-ups.
46:43
Yeah, by really prioritizing the diversity in the funding
46:45
decisions and yeah, bridging investment gap.
46:49
So we really have to encourage courage, more women to invest,
46:52
Yeah, to have also investment decision making rules.
46:55
I think having those roles is very important, yeah, to make
46:59
sure that there's more female leadership, because we also seen
47:02
that female leadership tends to invest more in, of course,
47:05
female founders. So I think that's very, yeah,
47:08
that's very important. Maybe to circle back for a
47:10
minute, do you also see that in your personal working
47:13
environment that because you do have a female manager both?
47:17
OK. In that way for me is I, I see
47:19
it a lot like at at the funds level more so for example, like
47:24
the funds that I mentioned in the beginning, of course when
47:27
you have yeah, female led funds they invest in female founders.
47:33
I think that part we I see, I mainly see.
47:35
Yeah, but what do you see on your own work floor with with
47:40
Natasha as a manager? We think what we see on the work
47:44
floor is diversity being an important topic.
47:48
And I think that I think as we said, it relates to like having
47:52
people from all different backgrounds in our teams, but
47:55
also on the decision making front.
47:57
I know she finds it very important.
48:00
I think that's why we are also here today.
48:02
Yeah, to to make sure that diversity and also
48:06
entrepreneurial diversity is on everyone's top of mind.
48:09
And so we see it on the work floor as well.
48:11
Yeah, for sure. OK, cool.
48:14
Sounds like a great place to close.
48:16
Yep. Neil BB, Thank you very much for
48:20
a great conversation. Yes, thank you very.
48:22
Much If people want to learn more about you, connect with
48:26
you, especially female founders. Female investors are warmly
48:30
encouraged to connect with you on LinkedIn.
48:32
I suppose yes. Sure.
48:34
But where can they find more information about RVO, the Seed
48:39
capital regulation and innovation credit application
48:44
process? Yeah, it's all on the website.
48:46
So we have a lot of links, but yeah, it's on the mainly on the
48:49
website. Of course, LinkedIn, they're
48:50
also posting it about it. We have a web page but I think
48:54
on the website everything is mentioned, but if they want more
48:56
specific details they can always send us an e-mail.
49:00
Yeah, and maybe we can include it in the show notes.
49:03
And indeed, we'll include those links in the show notes, as
49:06
always. So Bibi von Kaiser, Mira
49:10
Zimmerman, thank you very much for an amazing conversation.
49:13
Really insightful. Good to learn how RVO is helping
49:17
female founders, maybe not directly, maybe also directly,
49:20
but also indirectly through Seed Capital.
49:23
And listeners, thank you very much for listening.
49:27
Until the next episode, keep being awesome.
49:34
Well, that's wrapped for episode 102 of Women Disrupting Tech
49:39
with PB Van Kajel and Meryl Zimmerman on how RVO funds
49:43
inclusive innovation. Meryl, PB and I hope that you
49:47
found our conversation as insightful as we intended it to
49:51
be. And special thanks to Natasha
49:54
Shilachi. I hope I don't butcher this for
49:57
introducing me to these two amazing role models.
50:00
I want to highlight that both Bibi and MIL would love for
50:04
female founders and their investors to get in touch with
50:06
them directly. Therefore, you'll find their
50:09
e-mail addresses plus links to more information about the
50:13
Innovation Credit, the Seed Capital Scheme and the Business
50:17
Angel Scheme in the show notes. As usual, you can find the show
50:21
notes at Women Disruptingtech or Oneword dot blog.
50:25
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50:33
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50:51
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51:32
With that, I wish you a wonderful day.
51:34
I hope to see you in the next episode and until then, keep
51:37
being awesome.