Latest / Your Estate Matters / Episode 62 - Secrets to Money and Relationship Harmony with Alyson Jones
Transcript
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</script><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"><script nonce="8jqZe9FHnIGIb7iOtJgbBw">var DOCS_timing={}; DOCS_timing['pls']=new Date().getTime();</script><meta property="og:title" content="YEM ep62 Alyson Jones"><meta property="og:type" content="article"><meta property="og:site_name" content="Google Docs"><meta property="og:url" content="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1L9KSgIyni1_pYETMPDA-8Pvtkq8ZClFaQkcVxUVNe-c/edit?usp=sharing&usp=embed_facebook"><meta property="og:image" content="https://lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/docs/AHkbwyLIzJCiEebcCyLUanIM9X5ny3Ovj5VRJtNPvZsZ6llVbr5GnU6fuzg7YOI_GUWvHIFvmNQ9nTyGGfXlk8I6mVIJ0JAICc8OCAgq7zgDxM-6NkKkJzVN=w1200-h630-p"><meta property="og:image:width" content="1200"><meta property="og:image:height" content="630"><meta property="og:description" content="YEM ep62 Alyson Jones Nicole Garton 00:00:02 Hello and welcome to Your Estate Matters presented by Heritage Trust. Your Estate Matters is a podcast dedicated to everything estates, including building and preserving your legacy. If it's estate related, we'll be talking about it. We're having the..."><meta name="google" content="notranslate"><meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, user-scalable=no, initial-scale=1.0, minimum-scale=1.0, maximum-scale=1.0"><meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=edge;"><meta name="fragment" content="!"><meta name="referrer" content="origin"><title>YEM ep62 Alyson Jones - Google Docs</title><link rel="shortcut icon" href="https://ssl.gstatic.com/docs/documents/images/docs-favicon-2026-v2.ico"><link rel="chrome-webstore-item" href="https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/apdfllckaahabafndbhieahigkjlhalf"><script nonce="8jqZe9FHnIGIb7iOtJgbBw">_docs_webfonts_fontFaces = null; _docs_webfonts_iframe_fontFaces = null;DOCS_timing['wpid']=new Date().getTime();</script><style 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Your Estate Matters is a podcast dedicated to everything estates, including building and preserving your legacy. If it\u0027s estate related, we\u0027ll be talking about it. We\u0027re having the conversations today that will help Canadians protect their families, their assets and their legacies tomorrow. \n\nToday, we\u0027re tackling a topic that touches every couple, but that many people find surprisingly difficult to talk about money, how you and your partner communicate about finances, manage spending and saving together, and navigate disagreements about money can have a profound impact on your relationship and ultimately on your estate plan. Research consistently shows that financial disagreements are one of the leading sources of conflict and relationships. Survey suggests that at least half of all arguments between partners involve money in some way, And yet most of us were never taught about how to have these conversations. We were not given a blueprint about talking about money openly, honestly, and without blame. My guest today is one of BC\u0027s most respected therapists and an expert on exactly this subject.\n\nNicole Garton 00:01:15 Alyson Jones is a president and clinical director of Alyson Jones and Associates, one of the largest private consulting centers in the province. She\u0027s a registered clinical counselor with over 25 years of experience working with individuals, couples and families. She is also a mediator, a collaborative law divorce coach, a parent educator, and an adjunct faculty member at the Adler School of Professional Psychology. Alison is the author of the award winning book more A New Philosophy for Exceptional Living, which won the 2014 National Indie Excellence Award. She\u0027s a frequent media commentator, appearing regularly on CTV news, CBC, KCRW, and contributing to The Huffington Post. She has written and spoken extensively about how money, communication, and relationships intersect. \n\nWe\u0027re so excited. Thank you so much for spending some of your precious time with us and sharing all your years of wisdom and expertise with our listeners. We\u0027ve known each other for years. You\u0027ve spent over 25 years working with couples and family and youth. Tell me the journey and the intersection of money and relationships.\n\nAlyson Jones 00:02:26 You know, for me and I have been working with families and couples for a very long time.\n\nAlyson Jones 00:02:31 And money is there. It is at the intersection. There\u0027s always financial considerations when we\u0027re dealing with relationships. Money itself is a kind of construct, but it moves different products and services and things like that. But it is a powerful, powerful presence in all relationships.\n\nNicole Garton 00:02:51 So how common are money related conflicts amongst the families that you see, and does it only come up with certain couples or families, or is it a conflict that seems to be prevalent across many families?\n\nAlyson Jones 00:03:05 It certainly manifests in issues in almost all relationships, like money is going to play out somewhere in there, in every relationship. Of course, there\u0027s certain times in relationships where money is going to be more of an issue, like when you\u0027re going through a big life transition or you\u0027re making a very big purchase, or you\u0027ve come into an inheritance or somebody having a transition within the family, a divorce, or there\u0027s been a loss. Right. So there\u0027s certain times when it escalates, but it is a factor in pretty much all relationships. It\u0027s more about how you communicate about it.\n\nAlyson Jones 00:03:37 It\u0027s going to be there, but it\u0027s about the communication skills to talk about these things.\n\nNicole Garton 00:03:42 So why do you think people find it so difficult to talk about money specifically?\n\nAlyson Jones 00:03:47 Well, I think there\u0027s a lot of factors around what makes it difficult, right. For a lot of people, it\u0027s how were they brought up, what was their family of origin, and how was money discussed, or was it even discussed in their family? For some people, it can be seen sometimes as uncomfortable or embarrassing to talk about money or. It\u0027s very comparative and competitive talking about money. So people tend not to talk about it like even with their friends or with their families, because it could be taken in a different way and they\u0027re very sensitive. I don\u0027t want this misconstrued in some way, but like I said, it is a presence and it is there, and we do need to learn to talk about 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DOCS_modelChunkLoadStart = new Date().getTime(); DOCS_initialLoadTiming.incrementTime('mp', DOCS_modelChunkLoadStart - DOCS_modelChunkParseStart); DOCS_warmStartDocumentLoader.loadModelChunk(DOCS_modelChunk); DOCS_modelChunk = undefined;</script><script nonce="8jqZe9FHnIGIb7iOtJgbBw">DOCS_modelChunkParseStart = new Date().getTime();</script><script nonce="8jqZe9FHnIGIb7iOtJgbBw">DOCS_modelChunk = {"chunk":[{"ty":"is","ibi":4587,"s":"\nNicole Garton 00:04:23 So it seems like there\u0027s like a taboo or something. Do you want to tell us about that?\n\nAlyson Jones 00:04:30 Yeah, there\u0027s been a taboo because historically sometimes money has been seen as almost dirty.\n\nAlyson Jones 00:04:35 Right? You don\u0027t talk about that. You don\u0027t talk about the dirt. And because it triggers different things for people, you know, money is associated with power and it\u0027s also associated with lack of power, right? Lack of money, lack of power. And this whole sense of, well, there must be something bad then, you know, if you have money, then are you being a good person? Right. It gets right down to sort of the sense of who we are as people. And there can be some very limiting ways of looking at it. And people are carrying - this money carries a lot of energy with it. The whole conversation carries a lot of energy and a lot of history.\n\nNicole Garton 00:05:13 So tell me about that, because I feel that as well, working with families. What is that energy piece?\n\nAlyson Jones 00:05:18 It\u0027s their own blueprints that were laid down when they\u0027re young. Right? That idea of “how was it handled in your own family.” But it\u0027s also how we look around in society. You know, if I have money, I\u0027m winning.\n\nAlyson Jones 00:05:30 If I don\u0027t have money, I\u0027m losing. I don\u0027t want people to think I have too much money, and I don\u0027t want people to think I don\u0027t have enough money. Right? I don\u0027t want to be seen as losing, but I also don\u0027t want to be seen as vulnerable and a source of people wanting to come to me for money. Right. So it becomes all of this, and how it was discussed and handled in our families of origin is huge. And if you grew up in a family where it wasn\u0027t discussed, where people didn\u0027t talk about it or was seen as gauche or something in some kind of way improper to talk about money. A lot of people go forward in life and are making big decisions, and they really haven\u0027t had any real conversations about money.\n\nNicole Garton 00:06:14 People who traditionally have less power, maybe. Or I think the secrecy or the hesitancy to discuss it may inadvertently contribute to those inequities. Like we don\u0027t talk about money in salaries necessarily, but certainly traditionally women or visible minorities may in workplaces be making less than other people, and then not discussing it almost exacerbates or structurally enforces those inequities.\n\nNicole Garton 00:06:43 Do you think that\u0027s true?\n\nAlyson Jones 00:06:45 I think that\u0027s very true. And I think sometimes there has been, you know, and in particular for women in the workplace, and not that long ago, we even got the vote when we really even think about it. And, you know, you don\u0027t tell. Right. And it keeps supporting the kind of power structure that exists. And sometimes it\u0027s actually kind of exciting to be, you know, a woman at this time and talking about it because it sort of challenges those traditional power structures and says, no, we are going to talk about it. I am going to have a conversation with my friends, with my family, with my children, with my parents, with my employer, you know, with my colleagues about this. And it does open things up. But it without a doubt also makes people very uncomfortable.\n\nNicole Garton 00:07:27 So we\u0027re talking about the concept of money and status have always been linked. And that cultural tendency to treat money talk as crass or impolite.\n\nNicole Garton 00:07:37 So let\u0027s talk about couples sort of in midlife or older 60s, 70s who\u0027ve grown up with these norms, like the roles of women have been changing. There have been structural inequities that are changing. Like, how do you see that changing in terms of the couples you see in your office?\n\nAlyson Jones 00:07:55 It is changing. And, you know, I think a lot of people in particular, if you\u0027re in the stage in your life where you know, you are sort of in your maybe 45 to 70 kind of stage, right? I mean, things are changing. And like when I grew up, it was not common to talk about money. You just didn\u0027t. I happened to grow up with a parent who - my mom, she\u0027d worked in a bank, and so she would talk about it because she had a little more comfort than a lot of other people. And, you know, that was unique. But for most of my peers, it wasn\u0027t discussed at all. 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DOCS_modelChunkLoadStart = new Date().getTime(); DOCS_initialLoadTiming.incrementTime('mp', DOCS_modelChunkLoadStart - DOCS_modelChunkParseStart); DOCS_warmStartDocumentLoader.loadModelChunk(DOCS_modelChunk); DOCS_modelChunk = undefined;</script><script nonce="8jqZe9FHnIGIb7iOtJgbBw">DOCS_modelChunkParseStart = new Date().getTime();</script><script nonce="8jqZe9FHnIGIb7iOtJgbBw">DOCS_modelChunk = {"chunk":[{"ty":"is","ibi":9073,"s":"\nAlyson Jones 00:08:37 And some of us have had to stumble into finding ways to have these conversations because they are an essential part. And in particular, at this point in our lives, well, in all times in our lives, but in this times in our lives we\u0027re talking about maybe we have children in university and we\u0027re helping fund that And we\u0027re changing our homes and we\u0027re, you know, looking ahead to retirement and all of those things we have to communicate. And if you\u0027re in a couple, it\u0027s important because those are significant life events.\n\nNicole Garton 00:09:08 So when I talk to people in midlife, there\u0027s often an element of fear. Certainly fear of not having enough or running out, sometimes guilt or shame if they feel that they haven\u0027t earned enough. The reality is the cost of living is crushing. Particularly, we live in British Columbia where the cost of living is enormous. Salaries certainly haven\u0027t kept up with it. And, you know, I think there\u0027s a perception, certainly when we see on social media, it looks like everybody else seems fine.\n\nNicole Garton 00:09:39 You know, the interesting thing is with me being a family lawyer for many years, I saw everybody\u0027s tax returns and budgets and quite frankly know that most people are scrambling. So, you know, probably more visibility than the average person. So let\u0027s talk about those emotions and how you have seen that manifest and how couples and families work through that.\n\nAlyson Jones 00:09:59 It can be a lot of emotions, right? Like I said, money is often linked with power. So if you\u0027re the person that maybe has the largest income or is carrying a lot of it, it can feel like a burden, right? Like carrying that load. And you can develop resentments against maybe your partner, who you feel isn\u0027t having to take the same level of responsibility. But on the converse, you can have that person who feels kind of disempowered and feels like they don\u0027t have the same voice and choice in the relationship because one party is making more, bringing more in, and then they feel inadequate, right? And the other person can feel inadequate and unsupported as well.\n\nAlyson Jones 00:10:34 So those dynamics and it can lead to things like shame, right. And it can lead to things like fear. Right? Unfortunately, sometimes when we\u0027re faced with fear or the things that make us really anxious, we want to run away from that. But avoidance never makes anything better. Never. If you\u0027re dealing with financial issues, there\u0027s also the sense of being a failure, right? Like it\u0027s like, oh my goodness, I have failed. I had this good job. But it didn\u0027t translate into me being financially successful in the way I thought it would because I didn\u0027t manage it. Now I feel like I\u0027m a failure and I\u0027m embarrassed, right? So all of these strong feelings get evoked. And even if you feel like you are doing really well and you\u0027re successful in managing it well, then you almost feel embarrassed because you\u0027re like, oh, I don\u0027t want anybody to think I don\u0027t care about what their circumstances are.\n\nNicole Garton 00:11:28 One thing that seems to create a lot of friction is that people invariably marry each other that have different attitudes towards money.\n\nNicole Garton 00:11:35 So somebody might be more scarcity oriented or abundance oriented, or one person is a big saver, the other one\u0027s a spender, one\u0027s cautious, one wants to take risks. How do couples deal with those personalities or perspectives that differ.\n\nAlyson Jones 00:11:52 And it\u0027s true. Often, you know, sometimes opposites attract and things like that. The thing is, that can actually be the golden ticket, right? When you have people in a relationship that have strengths that they\u0027re able to bring to the relationship, it can create a wonderful combination, right? So if you have somebody who is more of a spender and somebody who\u0027s more of a saver, you can actually help that spender kind of ground themselves a bit in security, and you can help that saver open up more to experiences in the value of experiences in life. So you really can have a fabulous combination of how you manage your money and your life experiences by bringing those two different types of people together. 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Man, I can\u0027t believe he spent that again. Man, I can\u0027t believe she shot that idea down again. But if you can learn the communication skills, you know, the money skills and discussing it like that comes in some ways second to the communication skills. And one of the things I always say to people, be curious. Be curious about your partner\u0027s view on things. Be curious about their family of origin. Be curious about what they felt when they got their first paycheck. Right? Because what we want to get to is the values underneath that maybe for that person. And you ask them, what was it like when you got your first paycheck? And they talked about the feeling of independence and the feeling that they, on their own level and competency could create something that\u0027s a value that gives you information. This is very important to my partner. Independence, right. And some freedom. If it gave you that sense of security. 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And then you start to go, if they\u0027re keeping this secret, what other hidden things, what have I built my life on? Right. And so this is where when there is some sort of infidelity from a financial perspective, when there\u0027s some sort of secrets and hidden things, it really makes people question their security. And often they\u0027re not as secure as they thought they were. Right. It can be the eye opening part, and either people need to correct some of that, or sometimes it does end up that they\u0027re just not able to go forward in a cohesive way anymore. If you\u0027re with somebody that you just can\u0027t rest it, that\u0027s the thing is, if you don\u0027t trust somebody, you can\u0027t rest. And if you can\u0027t rest in a relationship, it becomes incredibly harmful and harmful to our health. Like, we need to be able to go out in a day and do all our things and accomplish all our whatever. Come home and rest.\n\nAlyson Jones 00:30:07 So when you can\u0027t rest at home, that\u0027s a problem.\n\nNicole Garton 00:30:11 How should someone know? Or what are the signs that a couple should be looking for outside help?\n\nAlyson Jones 00:30:17 If you feel like you\u0027re stuck, you know you\u0027re trying to have those conversations and you\u0027ve made attempts with your partner on several occasions and it\u0027s not going anywhere. I think that it\u0027s like, hey, this is a communication issue. We need to learn better communication skills and how to hold and validate space for each other. Right. So, you know, if there\u0027s name calling and attacks when it feels like it\u0027s personal, right? Then you need to get somebody else neutral involved, and you need to get some reality checks as to what is really going on here. And sometimes you need that, like I said, third-party neutral professional to give the picture back and also help build the skills.\n\nNicole Garton 00:31:00 A lot of the people that listen are people in midlife, and they\u0027re often facing significant transitions. So it might be retirement, it might be downsizing, caring for aging parents, changes in their own health.\n\nNicole Garton 00:31:14 How does this change those many conversations, those life stages.\n\nAlyson Jones 00:31:18 Throughout the life of a relationship? You know, you start with all the romantic stuff, and that\u0027s where sometimes it\u0027s uncomfortable to talk about, you know, because we have this whole romanticized vision of everything. But, you know, people, if they\u0027re here, they\u0027re still together. Somehow they have coped. Right. So first of all, we want to give kudos. Where there, you know, it\u0027s like even if you didn\u0027t have the best communication skills you got here, right? And you\u0027re now talking about, okay, the next stages that are coming. Right. But the thing is to take those strengths that have worked in the relationship and think, okay, if we\u0027re planning for a retirement, we\u0027re planning to give some money to our children or planning our legacy from a real perspective or whatnot. This allows us another opportunity to kind of really talk about what our vision is, you know, and people like to share that. People like to have other people interested in them and interested in what their visions and their goals are.\n\nAlyson Jones 00:32:12 So with another space to go deeper, and if you\u0027re already doing great in this area, fabulous. Now you really get to play, right? 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