Latest / Queer Voices / October 8th 2025 Queer Voices - Molly Cook, Richard Watson, and Tammi Wallace

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October 8th 2025 Queer Voices - Molly Cook, Richard Watson, and Tammi Wallace · Queer Voices

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_05: This is KPFT 90.1 FM Houston, 89.5 FM Galveston, 91.9 FM Huntsville, and worldwide on the internet at KPFT.org.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Queer Voices, a radio show that has been on KPFT for over five decades.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: We're also a podcast, so however you found us, we are glad you are here.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: Tonight we will look at LGBTQIA plus voices from three perspectives politics, history, and business.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: First up, we have Molly Cook.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: She is an American registered nurse and politician who is a member of the Texas Senate for the 15th District.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: She's a Democrat who was elected in a May special election to fill the vacancy from John Whitmire's resignation to become mayor of Houston.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: Then we have author R.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: Lee Ingalls, who interviews Richard Watson as part of a series discussing gay history with people.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: Richard tells us what it was like for him growing up in rural Mississippi and then discovering our community in New Orleans.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Finally, I get to talk to Tammy Wallace about women and the greater Houston LGBTIQ Plus Chamber of Commerce.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Queer Voices start now.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_03: Excited to introduce and be speaking with our guest, State Senator Molly Cook, Democrat for Texas Senate District 15, which includes a portion of Houston in Harris County.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: Senator Cook was sworn in in May 2024 after winning a special election to fill the seat vacated by now Mayor John Whitmire.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: Molly Cook is a registered nurse with dual graduate degrees in nursing and public health from John Hopkins University and is not only the youngest sitting state senator in Texas, but also the first openly LGBTQ person elected to the Texas Senate.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: Senator Molly Cook.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for joining us.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, David.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: So good to be back.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: Now there's a lot to get into because as we know and have covered on Queer Voices, queer voices as a community are being silenced and our people are under attack.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: But that's at least my assessment.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: What would you say is your landscape analysis on the state of being LGBTQ in Texas this year?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: I can't sugarcoat it.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: It is, it's just unbelievably tough.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: It really is, especially when we're looking at our triance brothers, sisters, and siblings, anybody who is at any kind of intersection at all of other forms of oppression.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, things are really hard and you can feel it out in the community.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I always want to include the fact that I have a lot of hope.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: I see some paths forward.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: And there even were a couple of highlights from the 89th regular session here in Texas.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh it's mostly a painful picture, but uh it's just still a joy.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: They can't take away queer joy.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so thankful to be in a community, and I've got a lot of hope for us, and and we're working on making it better.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: Definitely want to start with some of the victories before we get into some of the the struggles and the fights that we have ongoing.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_03: Because, you know, being the first openly LGBTQ plus Texas senator, what are some of the biggest challenges you faced in this role, but also the victories that you see to be most meaningful so far this session?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, just watching the trans community experience more violence and scapegoating and and just a lot of unfairness was very painful.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that was the toughest part of session.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's just so clear that the powers that be and the Republican Party are willing to use human beings as wedge issues to accomplish political goals and gain power.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it's wrong, it's horrible, um, and we've got to work to stop it.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: So just being, you know, powerless to change the number of votes on some of these bills is very difficult.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: But as we know, there's a lot of ways to work on these issues and love our communities that aren't just voting yes or no on a bill.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I'm curious how you build coalitions and push forward progressive policy or really any policy that doesn't demonize and dehumanize LGBTQ plus population and a largely Republican legislature.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of so the Texas Senate is an interesting place, and I've talked about this with some folks.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: There's less opportunity in the Texas Senate for some coalition building that I was hoping for in what we all think of as like these horseshoe theory moments where somebody is so far left and somebody is so far right that they end up actually sometimes agreeing on certain things.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: There's a libertarian angle to living and letting live that allows for um a little more tolerance of homosexuality in general or any kind of, you know, expression that's not mainstream.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: So in the house, I was really, really proud and impressed to watch my colleague, uh Representative Benton Jones get his bill across the finish line in the house, which would decriminalize homosexuality.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Currently on the books, it is still says that it's illegal for two men to have sex with each other, right?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so we know that that's never really prosecuted right now, but it's still scary to have those words on the books and they're not right.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so we need them repealed.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so his bill repealed that language and got all the way through the house for the first time ever.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: It did not receive a hearing in the Texas Senate because of the the culture and the flavor of the Texas Senate doesn't allow for that kind of coalition building.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: But what is exciting is the house is more reflective of the population of Texas.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so there are folks out there who are on the right who do have some tolerance for people being able to make their own private decisions and enjoy their own private lives.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so that was really exciting to get to see him work that kind of coalition development with success.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's really great to hear.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for sharing that.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, I'm gonna be honest with you, I I want to hear some more good news if you have any.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: Please share with us, the listeners, any more good news that we have before we get into some of the bills that passed and were signed by Governor Abbott, such as Senate Bill Eight just last night.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: I felt pretty strongly after, you know, Vice President Harris's loss, that there was real risk that a lot of folks were going to reach for the closest thing and and blame that.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like for instance, uh, there's a couple different issues, but one of them is did we go too far?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Are we too woke on LGBTQ plus issues?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, is that the reason that we lost?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: And you hear some of that rhetoric, you see it online, you heard a little bit of it in the building, but really what I saw once session got started and the laws were being written again and the people reacting in real time, it's just so obvious that these bills are hateful, that they are not rooted in science, that we have indeed not gone too far at all in protecting the LGBTQ ⁇ community.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, there's a whole lot further to go.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that our our rights and our experiences are just intertwined and linked in a way that's inextricable.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: So if we're telling somebody you can't dress or look a certain way, that puts absolutely everybody at risk.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: If we're telling people, you know, you should use vigilanteism to to kick each other out of the bathrooms, that puts absolutely everybody at risk, whether you're getting straight, transist, it doesn't matter.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody is at risk when there's a culture of vigilanteism in Texas.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I really saw from conversations around the Capitol and the district that people really feel that in their bones.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: I almost felt like the allies grew more fervent as the as the horrifying bills were being written.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so some of what we saw as disappointments, failures, you know, bad bills passing inside the Capitol, outside of the Capitol, people understand that it's authoritarianism, that it is fascist, that it is a complete violation of the constitution, and that it means all of us are at risk for more violence.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: There's just a real feeling of people are like, what do we do?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: How do we protect our neighbors who are gender non-binary, who are communities, who are out, who are, you know, not just citizens straight, basically.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: And people are reaching for what's our options.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think right now, unfortunately, because of where we're at, some of the options include things like don't let people go to the bathroom alone, you know, or make sure that when you're hiring, you're going into the community to find out who needs work right now, who is experiencing job loss because of discrimination or these chill factors and things like that.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: So inside the Capitol, things feel pretty terrible.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: But as soon as I walk outside, there's just a hunger to love each other, to support each other, to weather this storm and to keep each other safe until we can um elect folks who care about public health, who care about our community, and who are willing to repeal these laws.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: My hope, as always, is in the people and in the organizing.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and our district just our district is pretty dang out and proud, and it feels good to be home.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: And wanting to kind of build upon this this landscape analysis, you know, on the state of being LGBTQ in Texas this year.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_03: I'm curious about the issues that you're hearing from your constituents in your district that are specific to the LGBTQ plus community.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_03: What's what's being raised?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_03: What's what's being talked about whenever people call in or visit you?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: People are really worried about how these laws are supposed to work.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, there's one that says that your government documents now must reflect what your birth certificate says.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: So if you've gone and had a gender marker changed for any reason, now that's in flux and that's in, you know, it's being it's being threatened and attacked, and people will have to go back and change things.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: And the attorney general is, you know, keeping lists of folks and that sort of thing.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: So people are very, very, very concerned about how is this actually supposed to work.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Same thing with the bathroom bill.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, what you know, the the bill changed shape so many times because it's terrible.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's an awful, painful, sloppy policy.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you couldn't get it passed, couldn't get it passed, it changed shape multiple times.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: So now the final version of the bathroom bill is just that government buildings, anything that's kind of government owned and run, has to have a policy in place that requires you to use the bathroom that matches the gender marker on your birth certificate.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: That is such a far, far cry from what it originally started as.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so people are wondering, you know, it relies on the report, again, vigilanteism on reporting on your neighbors.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, how is this supposed to work?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: What does an adequate policy really mean?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a way to put a policy in place, but still just kind of, you know, let people do what makes sense and what feels right?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then of course, I've heard from from several just members of our community who are like, no one wants me using the bathroom that matches the gender marker on my birth certificate.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody wants me in that bathroom.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: So there's just a lot of fear and trepidation around how exactly this is all supposed to work.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: People are want help keeping track of, of course, what lawsuits have been filed, where things are at in the court system.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, in Texas, we we feel that chaotic flip-flop all the time about issues that are really near and dear to us, whether it's our community or immigration.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: One day a law is on the books, the next day it's a challenge, and it is again.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we have better answers than others.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think for a lot of these policies, they're purposely not thought out.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: They're campaign moments, right?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's not actually important policy to anyone.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so the fear and the chaos is the goal.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so then you, of course, have to take that mutual aid angle again.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like while this is happening, until we can elect the right people on the ground, how are we keeping each other safe?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like physically in and out, you know, every single day, checking on our neighbors, being a community, and really keeping each other safe and watching each other's backs.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that that's really helpful.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_03: And and wanting to stay on the topic of the bathroom bill, Senate Bill Eight, I can share uh personally, as the co-president of the University of Houston's LGBTQ Plus alumni network, we are working with the University of Houston to actually compile a map of same gender single stall, all gender restrooms so that we can actually pinpoint on a map and support LGBTQ plus students identify exactly where on campus they can be without fear of harassment.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: And we're also wanting to do know your rights trainings for students because you mentioned government buildings, University of Houston, state funds from Texas.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_03: And so, what are some other kinds of ways that you can imagine supporting LGBTQ students and individuals who just want to use the restroom and really just want to exist amidst this bill?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: I know, and it's just so it's so painful because um, you know, it feels like that scene in hidden figures is just like we have done this before, we've been here before, this is wrong.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody knows it.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: So the the one thing I will say beyond doing what y'all are doing, which is, you know, proactively going in and saying, hey, you know, as the affected community, we'd love to help craft this policy or we'd love to help, you know, create resources for folks and everything like that.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, just trying to do your best to reduce harm and um create some safe spaces and things like that.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think you know, it's important for folks to know too.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: This passed in I can't remember if it was North Dakota or South Dakota.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of the Dakotas.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it was struck down almost instantly by a federal judge.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: And her opinion that she wrote was just fantastic.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: And there is nothing about this that is constitutional.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: It encourages discrimination, it encourages violence, it's absolutely unenforceable without committing a crime against somebody else.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many instances where even just masculine-looking non-trans women have been attacked in a restroom as a result of even these conversations and laws.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: And here in Texas as well, in the city of Odessa, they had a lame duck city council.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: So they were on their way out, they they couldn't be re-elected, and and the mayor and they had a bathroom bill in Odessa, which is not San Francisco, it's Odessa, Texas.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: Conservative place.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: And the new city council and mayor came in and immediately repealed it.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: And they said it was just discriminatory, it didn't make sense, it's unenforceable.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think we need to tell that story as well.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, you know, don't let somebody harass your friend in the bathroom, don't let people go alone, like keep each other safe, et cetera.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: But also, like, you know, feel comfortable telling the story that there have been very, very conservative places that have put these laws into action and then immediately taken them back out of action because they don't work, they don't make sense, and they cause a lot of harm.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and also we can tell the story of the fact that, you know, I had the conversation on the Senate floor with the author of this bill, and there were family violence shelters who asked for language changes, who asked for amendments to allow them to safely provide care, and those were turned down.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so, as you know, the the right tries to shape this narrative of protecting women, they are literally making the jobs of family violence shelters harder to do.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: And they don't know what they're talking about.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: They're not involved with affected communities of violence.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so we have to feel really strong and confident in our our facts and being able to tell the story that this makes all of us less safe.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's not enforceable, it's foolish policy, it's it's wasting time, precious time in session where we should be using this to make groceries and housing more affordable for Texans.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: All of that resonates with folks, and we need to just permeate our culture with the truth because it will literally keep us safer and hopefully bring about change faster rather than slower.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: What keeps you emotivated to continue this work amidst everything that's going on and everything that your colleagues are pushing?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_03: What gives you hope for the future of LGBTQ plus Texans?
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: I love this question.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, a lot of my hope is I can't even tell you, leaving Austin, leaving the special session, which was just so unpleasant to say the least.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's like as we drove home and it got more humid, and I was back on Harris County soil and you know, seeing all of my hope is in us.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's in our community, right here, here in Harris County or wherever you're sitting, but being out, being proud, loving yourself, loving your neighbors, that's where all of my hope is.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that what's going to save Texas is the Texans.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: I really do.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, people, it's tempting to look up toward powers that be.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I look side to side, and that's where my hope is.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: My hope is also in my team.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: I don't ever do work alone.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: I've never done work alone.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody should be in a community, in a team, you know, seek that out, soak up the love and the help from it, pour out your own love and help, and it makes all of us stronger and all of us better people.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then the last thing I'll say, which is not specific to the LGBTQ community, but it's very exciting to me.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: After I got elected, I immediately founded a pack called Organize to Win Pact.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a political action committee, you know, it takes in just donations, we run a pretty tight ship.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: And the whole purpose of this organization existing is to go out and talk to people who have not shown up and voted very much early, get to them early so that we can first offer something before we ask for something, and then actually build trust.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I've been out door knocking, which I try to make a regular practice, especially now that I'm elected, I'm talking to folks who are, you know, sitting behind their front doors in their homes worried about federal cuts, they're worried about school vouchers, they're worried about redistricting all these wildly unpopular policies that are coming from the right right now.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: They're worried about the authoritarianism and things feel like they're destabilizing.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: And they also usually have some sort of problem that we can help with.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Something as simple as replacing a trash can, but they often also don't have a party affiliation and they don't know who who represents and serves them.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so, to me, again, not totally specific to like a queer community, but when we're thinking about what is the left doing to increase capacity, to increase power, to build back trust with voters, I think there's a lot of opportunity that we aren't even necessarily taking advantage of.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it's as simple as going out, knocking on somebody's door and saying, You've probably never heard of me, but I serve you.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not here to ask for your vote.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not here to ask for a donation, I'm not here to ask you for anything.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm here for you to tell me what is something in your life that I can try to help you with, that I can try to take off of your plate, because that's how government should work anyway.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we leave little flyers behind with a QR code, with a survey where people can submit their issues if they didn't open the door.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: And we feed a lot of those constituent issues from the PAC to the office.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then the office takes it from there.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and what's exciting is the office phone has been ringing off the hook.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: We have had an increase of the constituent services uptake since the PAC has gone out and started talking to folks.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I just want people to know, you know, if you live in our area, follow on social media at Mollyford, Texas.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: We have volunteer opportunities coming up.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't live in our area, send us a DM and ask us how we're doing it so you can do it in your, you know, where you live in Texas or wherever you live.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: But there is opportunity for power building on the left that is, you know, it's just not rocket science.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's just exactly what we should be doing.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Put one foot in front of the other, do the right work the right way for the right reasons, and we are already seeing it make a difference in our district.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: What message do you have for our haters, the people who want to keep us down?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Don't hate us.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: You're just hating yourself, man.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: A world where people are free to love themselves and others, to know themselves and others, to, you know, to understand who God is, what the earth is.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like one of us is free.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: We can all be free.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I just wish that our haters could look in the mirror and realize that if you're hating on us, it's because you're hating on something inside yourself.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And when you can learn to love that about yourself and truly accept yourself, the way that the LGBTQ plus community models for the rest of the world, this would be a lot healthier, safer of a place.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody's cortisol levels could go down and we could all have a lot more fun.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I encourage all of our haters to look inward and just see if maybe, maybe it's coming from, you know, calls coming from inside the house and actually our community is really, really good about being authentic, truthful, and loving.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: I love that so much.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, thank you, thank you.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_03: This has been our guest, State Senator Molly Cook, Democrat for Texas Senator Senate District 15, not only the youngest sitting state senator in Texas, but also the first openly LGBTQ person elected to the Texas Senate.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so, so much, Senator Molly Cook.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, TMS.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Molly Cook and David, for discussing Texas politics with us.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well, now we're gonna move on to an interview conducted by author and historian R.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: Lee Ingalls.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: He sits down with Richard Watson, who is a man who has been a part of the Houston LGBTQIA Plus community for several decades.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: Richard has been involved in numerous nonprofits, including the crew of Olympus and the mystery and fantasy Mardi Gras Party.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: This is the first of an ongoing series where we feature queer voices who can share their perspective and history within our own community.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_04: Hi everyone, this is R.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_04: Lee Ingalls, and I am joined today by longtime Houston resident Richard Watson.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_04: Richard has been part of our community for the past several decades, and we're going to talk about what growing up gay was like for his generation and some of the impacts of significant events in our community.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_04: Richard, welcome to the show.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_07: Thank you, Lee.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_07: I appreciate you having me.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_04: So we've known each other for a long time.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_04: We've really never had this kind of a discussion.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it's important for us to talk about how our lives were different when we were younger than what they are today.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_04: So for you, you grew up in Mississippi?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_07: I did, small town in Mississippi, yes.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so what was it like being gay in that environment?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_07: Well, actually, I can't answer that because there weren't any gay people.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_07: That was a period now we're talking about 70 or 80 years ago.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_07: And that was a time when they didn't have gay people.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_07: You had a few queers, but they weren't the same context at all.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_07: So that never came up in my lifetime.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_04: So those people that were identified or called queer by the other parts of the community, you never saw yourself as part of that group then.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_04: Well, it wasn't necessarily sexual.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_04: It was just characteristics, etc.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_04: And you didn't identify as those.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_07: No.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_04: At what point did you realize that you were gay, even though gay might not have been a term at that point?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_07: I think that was a turning point when I was in my preteens.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_07: Like I say, we lived in a small community.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_07: My dad had a Friday large form.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_07: And Christmas rolled around, and I came down Christmas morning, and it was a saddle, small saddle, and a donkey out in the garage.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_07: And a dollhouse.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_07: My mother had misunderstood a linehill train system.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_07: I was trying to find houses for the train system, not a dollhouse.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_07: Anyway, I got the dollhouse, and what did I do?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_07: I went to the dollhouse immediately.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_07: The donkey and saddle sat for quite a while.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_07: So I think that was uh should have been uh a light coming on.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_07: It didn't.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_07: It should have been.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so going up then, did you have any role models at all?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_04: No.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_04: No one else.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_04: No.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_04: Well, and and that was fairly common at that time.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_04: At that time.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_04: So at some point you did realize that you were gay, and how did the family did they know?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_04: How was it accepted?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_07: Well, I was uh when I was in college, I was married, and I was not gay.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_07: I didn't know I was gay.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_07: And my wife was in an accident, and she lost her life.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_04: Oh my.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_07: And I uh did not remarry, didn't get engaged later on, but that lasted about six months.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_07: I moved to uh Jackson, Mississippi.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_07: Or a friend of mine had a friend that lived on the Gulf Coast, and we went down to visit the two of us dead, and this guy was really nice.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_07: I went back a few times.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_07: Well, he was gay.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_07: And through him is when I realized that, yeah, that was my calling.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_07: And when I finally realized that it wasn't a matter of opening the door, the door flew off the hinges.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_07: I never really confronted or told it wasn't anybody's business but mine.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_07: I never talked to my family about it, and they never brought it up.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_07: Years later, I was living in New Orleans, and I had broken my leg, and my mom had decided she needed to come down and visit.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_07: Well, that was fine, except I had a boyfriend.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_07: So the three of us were staying in a small apartment down in the French corner.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_07: And as she was leaving, she looked at me one time and she said, You and Warren, that was his name.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_07: You don't blame me or your father.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_07: And I said, Blame me for what?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_07: Well, your lifestyle.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_07: I said, my lifestyle was my choice, not yours.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_07: And if you're accepting it, that's great.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_07: If you don't, that's your business.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_07: And that's how it all came out.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_04: Unusual.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_04: So were they then accepting of it, or did it take a little time to adjust?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I've always heard that's your mom knows way before you do anyway.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_07: So I don't think that was a big shock.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_07: And I still had my little vacuum cleaner from my dollhouse.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so I'm talking about relationships, sustainability of relationships.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_04: Well, how do you find that in our community versus what you see in the heterosexual community or other communities?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I think that the secret to that, firstly, you have to be honest with yourself and you have to be honest with others.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_07: And that's kind of the attitude that I take at this work so far.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_04: Well, and and talking about the gay relationships, of course, you have a husband, Robert, and knowing the two of you, we have what I view, and I think others view as a very successful relationship.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_07: We've been together about 27 years, and we've been married since 2014.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_07: So yeah, I think we have a pretty successful relationship.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_07: Robert, we take advantage of relationships, we take advantage of each other, and sometimes that becomes a problem.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_07: But when I stop and think about how it would be without Robert, as such an eye opener, I consider myself very fortunate.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_07: And yeah, we work at it.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_07: Any relationship you have to work at.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_07: And it works if you're willing to put the time in.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_04: Well, kind of looking back to an earlier time in your life before we could get married, how did you look at your relationships or the relations ability to have a relationship at that time?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_04: Did you see that as viable or or no?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I did.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_07: Oh, you tell it to people.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_07: So you know, at that time it was your partner or your special friend or this kind of relationship.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_07: I never thought I would ever see gay marriage.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_07: And when that happened, I was elighted.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_07: But as far as my relationship with Robert, it was as though it was a marriage.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_04: Well, do you did you kind of parallel the design of your relationship after a heterosexual relationship, or did you see it differently?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_07: It was obviously different.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_07: At least our relationship, I I think there was some codependency.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_07: And the heterosexual relationship seemed to be one way.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_07: And as a result, I think that uh you have to be very knowledgeable of someone else's feelings and their attitudes to uh and to appreciate them for what they are.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_07: So no, I think there is a difference there.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_07: It's uh mutual type thing.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_04: I would I would agree.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_04: And like I said, the two of you have an extraordinary relationship.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, and then it's going past that then, the you know, the partnership or or togetherness relationship to friendships in general.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_04: I know that for you and I, we have friends that go back more than 30 years, and you even more than that.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_04: So do you think that that's unique to our community, or how do you see that?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_07: I think it might be unique to our community and the I don't know, sexual community.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_07: Friends, long-term relationships seem to be more family-oriented.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_07: We don't have that in our relationships and in our community.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_07: So I think that's kind of uh different for the gay community.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_07: We have a lot of things that gays do in common that a lot of strikes don't.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_07: We've been through a lot, we've faced a lot, we've challenged a lot.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_07: And I think that in itself is a binder to keep a community together.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_04: Taking going back again in time to your teens and twenties, how is the community different now than what it was then?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_04: What differences are you seeing?
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_07: Much more open and much more accepting.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_07: It's not a word that doesn't exist.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_07: People use it now, people are not afraid to live in a shadow.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_07: And I think that's a very telling point because there's so many people in my generation that had they not had this, and I call it a burden problem about trying to quote unquote be straight, would have been a lot happier and a lot more productive.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_07: I think that that's very important today, that the teens and twenties, even into the 30s, this is very important.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_07: You are accepted, you can make a life for yourself, and you can benefit others.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, no, I totally agree.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_04: So back when we were young in our twenties, etc., there was no internet.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_04: To meet people for my generation, the option was to go to a gay bar, a bar that was considered gay.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_04: What did you experience?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_07: Well, when I did finally come out, I'd never been to a bar, and I was living in Jackson, Mississippi.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_07: Well, I accepted a job in New Orleans.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_07: So I moved down to New Orleans.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_07: So I went, I thought, okay, I've got to try a gay bar.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_07: Didn't know anything about gay bars, gay bars, anything like that.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_07: So I walked into this bar on Bourbon Street, as it turned out it was a drag bar, and I was totally freaked out.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_07: I thought, oh my god, does that mean to be gay you have to be running around and drag all the time?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_07: And I was just I was traumatized.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_07: I had a nice time and I talked to some nice people, but I just could not accept this.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_07: And I wouldn't go back to a bar for a long time.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_07: And finally, some friends that would come on and we went, and it was a different kind of bar altogether.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_07: That was fine.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_07: I don't have any problem with that.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_07: So no, my first experience was sort of an eye opener to say the least.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I remember my first drag show as well.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_04: And I it was actually somebody that I worked with also during the day that did drag at night, and I found it unusual, just as you did.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_04: But I was prepared for it.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_04: I knew what was coming.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_04: So I I was just mesmerized by it.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_04: I had never even back then they called it uh female illusionists, is what they were, is how we characterized it.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, some of the major events that took place then during our our time on this earth.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_04: Stonewall.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_07: Stonewall actually happened in the early, early, early part of my adult years.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_07: I don't like I still wasn't an adult, but it was a long time ago.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_07: It didn't I didn't really understand exactly what it was when it happened.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_07: Well, I didn't know now.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_07: Certain, certainly, that was a turning point.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_07: Stonewall was, I think the biggest impact on me personally was the AIDS crisis.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_07: I had a large circle of friends back in our 30s, about then, 30s, early 40s.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_07: Big circle of friends.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_07: I would say probably 15 or 20.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_07: We ran around together a lot, partying a lot.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_07: Only one other one survived.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_07: He and I survived.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_07: And it got to the point where we were going to funerals multiple times a month.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_07: We were losing friends left and right.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_07: Parents were not accepting this.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_07: They were denying these children, these sons and daughters.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_07: It was a really traumatic experience for me.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_07: And I have often wondered, as I discussed with my friend that survived, why were we spared?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_07: We don't know.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_04: I think there's a lot of people of our generation that feel the same way.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_04: There are precious few of us.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_04: They didn't make it through that.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_04: I think all of us have that same question.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_04: Why, why was I why did I come through it?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_04: And I saw entire circles of people disappear.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_04: Disappear.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_04: Well, one of the things that I found happened common during that time period is when someone became ill.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you there was kind of a few things that were telling what was going on, but then eventually they moved away.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_04: Did you experience that same thing?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_07: No, because a lot of them didn't have any place to move to.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_07: Again, I guess their parents got involved and they rejected them.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_07: Most of them that I knew stayed with friends in our group.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_07: Most of them died in their homes.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_07: So no, they did not move away.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_07: In a way, I think that was good because it gave us the opportunity to at least stay in touch with them and not let them know that they were cared for.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I would have to agree with that.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_04: And I was part of the early years Omega House when it was being put together.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_04: Eleanor Munger worked very closely with her uh during those early years.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, it it was a very sad time in our community.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_04: Moving forward a little bit in time for early 2000s and marriage equality, when that first started coming on the scene, when did you think, you know, go from marriage is not an option for us to thinking, you know what, maybe this will happen.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_04: What was when was that and what was that like?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_07: When s well, when some states, particularly on the northeast, started allowing marriage, gay marriage, I thought maybe there's hope.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_07: I never thought Texas would.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_07: Consequently, I was thrilled with the prospect of actually making this relationship I had with Robin something more permanent in a legal sense.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_07: So we went to Minnesota and got married.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_07: And it was after that, of course, that Texas also followed suit.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_07: That I think was a turning point in the gay world anyway.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, when you had the opportunity to marry and express your love for another person that was of the same gender.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_04: Brett and I this year are celebrating 20 years together.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_04: When we first met, there was no marriage equality.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_04: It wasn't even in either one of our minds that it's someday that we would actually be able to legally get married.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_04: And I know Texas still has on the books that they it is not legal.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_04: However, my understanding is the Supreme Court ruling, parts of that ruling were codified.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_04: And one of those pieces that were codified is that every state will recognize the marriage from another state.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_04: And like you, we were married in Minnesota the year before the Supreme Court made their ruling.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_04: So we were married in a state that that allowed it.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_04: Even it's even should that change, God forbid, that should change.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_04: In Texas, our marriage would still be recognized because of that, how they codified at least portions of it.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we both got married in 2014, two months apart.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_04: The oddest thing for me is Robert, your husband, and I share so much in common in our past.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_07: You do, yes.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_04: A few months apart in age, we grew up in a very very close to each other, our early careers very much look like each other.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so that certainly has has helped the friendship between the four of us.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_04: And then you both married two wonderful men.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_04: You know, yes, I agree with that wholeheartedly.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_04: So looking forward in time, and part of what our responsibility is, is helping the next generation, you know, pick up where we left off and taking our community forward.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_04: What advice would you have for someone who's young now, struggling with coming out, and and put them on a path where they can then be as successful as we were?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_07: Respect yourself, have confidence in yourself, and be honest.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_07: If you manage those three things and you'll do fine, don't let people put you down, balk you down, make you feel inferior.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_07: You're not.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_07: But be honest, be honest with your friends.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_07: And I think if you follow that, you'll have success in whatever you do.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_07: Well, you know, I I've been very fortunate.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_07: I've been fortunate in my profession, in my friends.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_07: I've been involved in a lot of organizations that are charitable based.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_07: I've enjoyed that, and I still do that.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_07: You can't, even though I'm retired and I've been for ten years now, you can't just hide yourself somewhere.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_07: You've got to stay active.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_07: And I think the best way to stay active is to try to do that in a community-based thing, something that you out of the community with.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_07: I think that's been my approach of at least if not success, for comfort.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, well, you've done a lot of work for the community over the years.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_04: So, yes, thank you.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for that.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_07: I've been involved in a lot of things, and that really is neither here nor there.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_07: I would just like for people I'm gonna backtrack a little bit.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_07: I had a relative of mine, a young man, and he was married twice, divorced twice, tried to commit suicide three times.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_07: We were close, and so the last time he tried to commit suicide, it was by medication.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_07: I talked to him and I said, Okay, I'm gonna ask you a question.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_07: If you answer, fine, if you don't, that's fine.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_07: I said, Are you gay?
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_07: And there was a long hesitation, and he says, Yeah, Uncle, I am.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_07: I said, When you get out of the hospital, you'll have a ticket waiting for you, and I'm flying you down to New Orleans, and we're going to go to bars and you're gonna see what gay life can be, and not hiding in back alleys and things like that.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_07: He did.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_07: He came down, he went back to Mississippi, he packed up his bags and moved to Texas.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_07: I was in Texas by this time, and moved to Texas, and he had an entirely different life.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_07: He's married now to a man.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_07: They have a good life, a good home, he's had a good profession.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_07: And it goes back to this thing about acceptance, acknowledgement, and how you feel about yourself.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_07: He could have very easily been under the ground then.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_07: So that is, I guess, if I said if there's something I did that I think was beneficial, so that was my part in getting him straight and he didn't.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_04: It's something that we see a lot of, and you bring up an interesting point to one that I meant to ask about earlier.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_04: When I first came out, one of the more common circumstances that I saw was an older gay man that had in his early life gotten married, in some cases had kids, tried to fight the urges and eventually decided, yes, I I'm gay, and they left their wife and their family and pursued life as a gay man.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, and the first time, the first few times, I saw the struggle in their face and their lives and that they had.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_04: Do you see that as well, first of all, did you experience that as you were growing up, a young man?
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_04: And do you see that as much now?
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_07: No, because like I say, when I came out, I didn't have any children.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_07: And my wife was dead.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_07: So I didn't have any family relations.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_07: So the one that I had to uh deal with was myself.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_07: I can see how that could be a terrible burden on someone because you're pulled in so many directions.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_07: And I have seen I'm kind of telling on myself a little bit here.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_07: I had a relationship with a guy, and I really cared for him.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_07: And we had seen each other for oh close to a year.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_07: And finally, there was in the summertime he said, I want you to come out and uh we're gonna have a barbecue.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_07: I want you to come and meet some of my friends and all.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_07: So I went.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_07: Well, I got there.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_07: I met his wife and three children.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_07: I had no idea this man was married.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_07: I had no idea this man had children, and our relationship stopped.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, of course.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_07: But no, that's the kind of thing that I don't.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for joining me today.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, your history is is fascinating, and I appreciate your sharing it with us.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_07: Well, thank you for having me.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: Tammy Wallace is a co-founder and the president and CEO of the Greater Houston LGBTQ plus Chamber of Commerce.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: For more than 20 years, Tammy's been a leading voice for LGBTQIA plus business advocacy in Houston.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: She owns her own small business, and today we're gonna talk about women, particularly lesbians who own businesses in our community.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: How can we help them?
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: What are they facing?
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: So, Tammy, thank you for talking to me today.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Brett, thank you.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm honored.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: I really, really appreciate uh the opportunity to share more about women-owned businesses.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a great topic.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: So tell me a little bit about women in business in our community.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, do you know some percentages or some demographic information about women, especially in the LGBTQ spaces?
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, you know, according to the Federal Reserve, their small business credit survey, they anticipate 34% of businesses are LGBTQ plus owned.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: But if you want to get down, really drill down into Houston or more broadly the region, we don't have that information.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that's something that we're looking at as part of our growth plan.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: How do we capture that information, right?
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's valuable, valuable information as we look to support LGBTQ plus owned businesses.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: President of the Greater Houston LGBTQ Chamber of Commerce.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: What kind of businesses are you seeing in your membership that are women-owned?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it's we're so we're a regional chamber.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we'll get questions about just in general, about our membership.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: People assume there's a certain type of business, and actually there's not.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because we're regional, we have not only LGBTQ plus owned businesses, all light-owned businesses, it really does run the gamut.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: But certainly some of our businesses we see are in hospitality experience spaces.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think of Kathy Podell with Houston, Asia Town Tours, right?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: Giving giving tours in in Asia Town.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: But then Julie Mabrie comes to mind with Pearl Bar.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: She's been an incredible leader and longtime business in the community.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then Black Flops.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: Rika and Tasha run a business where you can go in and make your own candles, create your own scent, both perfume and you know, candles.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Bring your team in, bring the family in, date night.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it really does run the gamut in other businesses that are like working with some of our large companies, right?
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: Through through supply chain.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: But that's that's the beauty.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: It really speaks to the beauty of our community, right?
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: We are the whole of the community.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think are some of the challenges for small businesses?
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right at the top of the list when I answer this question, particularly in the environment we're in, is uncertainty.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there is so much uncertainty.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: And what is creating that uncertainty, right?
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: Tariffs, what that means in terms of driving cost of business up, expenses, talent recruitment, just being able to attract and and retain employees is incredibly, incredibly challenging.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: And more specifically for LGBTQ plus owned businesses, women-owned businesses, is, you know, trying to differentiate themselves in despite the challenges that they've historically faced is, you know, that's where we come in at the chamber, right?
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: Helping to elevate these businesses, highlight that they are part of our community.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: If they're allied-owned businesses, supportive of the community, it's such a great way to differentiate your your business.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: And our community is also looking, and we asked our community to be intentional about their spending, right?
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: Go to our chamber directory, find businesses that not only align with you, you know, in our community, but support you 365 days a year.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: I always encourage people to do that.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: I always try to know who I'm doing business with, what factors they play in our community or in the overall larger impact of the community and things like that.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: I always try to patronize people that I know are part of our community or at least an ally or an advocate for us and not working against us.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's so important, just for your own peace of mind of like, I am helping my community rather than working against my community.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: I love hearing you say that, Brett, because when in this day and age right now, people are like, what can I do?
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: How can I help?
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: How can I, you know, I'm gonna fight what's going on?
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: The first step is your own dollars, how you spend those is your choice, right?
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: And by being intentional and spending those with inclusive supportive supporter businesses, not only helps, you know, signal and send a message, but it helps drive economic opportunity, right, for our community.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I remember a time I used to work in corporate America or anything public facing.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: You basically went into the closet for your work in your career.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: You basically said, All right, my identity is gone.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: And now it seems like we're almost entering an era where people are almost getting back to that.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, do you think that that's changed?
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I remember there was definitely a time when we didn't have to do that.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think I think people are scared and rightfully so right now.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen so at the chamber, we work with a lot of large companies, specifically their LGBTQ and allied employee resource groups or ERGs, where they're nervous about what's happening.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: In other cases, they're really strong advocates inside of the company to try to maintain support and engagement with the chamber.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: But earlier this year, we thinking about a small business came came to us and said, Look, we do we do federal contracting.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so we still support the chamber.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: We want to be in involved, but can you take our name off the public facing directory?
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: And of course we said yes.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: So people are very scared right now.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and what does that fear do?
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: It actually doesn't help our economy.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't help people grow and thrive, which is really in this country, particularly with small businesses or you know, in companies, in order to increase productivity, et cetera.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: We need people to thrive and be able to be bring their authentic sales to the table.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: All of that drives, you know, economic opportunity and drives our economy to be much more successful, meaningful, and also, you know, the returns that we get.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it's so contradictory in terms of what is what is happening right now with this fear-based approach because it really is impacting businesses, it's impacting employees and even, you know, nonprofits that are in our ecosystem.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things that I'm hearing rumblings about just within the community is security.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of people are talking about if you're a business that is out in public, part of the chamber, you know, whatever, am I going to be a target?
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: Do I need to step up my security?
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: Do you feel like there's a worry about that as well?
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, there's definitely a worry.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: There's a worry for us as an organization.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: We've had some threats and we've had to engage local, uh, local law authorities, agencies.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: Constable Rosen, I have to give him credit, but precinct one has been a great supporter in helping us through some of those challenges.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so that does go for our businesses.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: You want to talk about the ultimate statement of courage, and that is businesses that still encourage and support the community.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: They're very visible about supporting the community, whether they're LGBTU owned or allied owned.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's courage.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: That you can point to that today in terms of courage.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: We've had one of our businesses coffee shop in the woodlands had someone just flung open their doors, started yelling exploites, telling them to take their pride flag down.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it it is real.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: But this is also why as a community we need to make sure that we're showing up, that we're supporting them.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: And let's get a little bit more granular because we're here to talk about women specifically.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, what are the what are the challenges that you face as a woman owning a small business?
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: And what are the differences there?
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, for women in particular, there's obviously still the pay equity gap that we see that plays through for businesses as well.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: We've had businesses that get ready to to contract and they're asking me advice.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I'm like, why are you only charging this much, right?
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know other businesses that are doing the same thing, particularly when they wanted to engage with government or putting in an RFP, they're under, they're underselling themselves, they're undervaluing themselves because they want to get the business.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it's an educational process to understand your worth.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: The other piece of that is when you think about women entrepreneurs, so many of them also are raising families, right?
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: Have children.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's an that that's an added layer.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: But also the statistics, I don't know the exact number, but that are single parents.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: So they're single parents trying to raise children, trying to run a business, which quite frankly, being an entrepreneur is not for the faint of heart.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: It is is hard work and particularly under the conditions what we first talked about with the uncertainty, et cetera.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: Those are some of the unique challenges that women face.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's access to capital, particularly if they're, you know, just just getting started as a business.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: So those are the types of things we try to help help businesses connect with lenders that are working, working with us and working with our community, and also pairing them with you know supportive resources like mentors or role models.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because again, sometimes it's that self-worth that women come at life in general because of our life experiences.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: And uh that bleeds into entrepreneurship, that bleeds into business ownership as well.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the city at one point I think had a mandate to do business with women-owned businesses and minority-owned businesses.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: Is that still something that you see?
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that is still something.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: The city still does have their what's called an MWBE program.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: They do recognize there's a certification for LGBTQ plus owned businesses and LGBTBE or business enterprise certification.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: We worked with Mayor Turner to actually get the certification recognized by the city.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: And to his credit, he signed an executive order in 2020.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not counted towards the specific spend that is outlined in city ordinance.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: But the program is still ongoing.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: And there are many programs in government, Harris County, etc., that are still focused on engaging small, diverse owned businesses because our elected leaders understand diverse owned businesses, underserved businesses deserve a shot, a seat at the table, but also should be getting some of that business.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what those programs do.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: They require what's called primes to really seek out qualified small, diverse owned businesses, including women-owned businesses, to engage with them.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_02: And that's very comforting to hear because I you just have this image of the diversity and commitment to this kind of thing is is being eked away at.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_02: No, absolutely.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_02: And it's important work.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, tell me a little bit about the chamber if I'm interested in it.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_02: How can I find out more?
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_02: Where do I go?
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_02: Who do I network?
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, how do I do that?
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: So we uh so people sometimes when you hear the word chamber, you think, oh, small businesses.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: Our ecosystem actually does consist of those large companies I mentioned.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, our small businesses.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: We have professionals, we have young professionals, and we have nonprofits.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so all you have to do is visit Houston LGBTQchamber.com and you can see our various membership levels.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: We do about 140 events a year.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy, but we do really encourage people to come out to our monthly third Thursday breakfast.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: We get it between 100 and 150 people every month.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it is a fantastic way to start your morning and being in community.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: People love this breakfast.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll say this, Brett, when we first started the chamber, people would tell come up to Gary and I and they'd be like, wow, I love this chamber.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it, you know, as we were about a year in, and so we Gary and I were like, okay, well, we're obviously doing something right, but what is it?
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so we started asking people in comparison to other chambers, and then I figured out, and I figured out what the magic is.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: When you walk in the doors of the chamber, that armor that we have to wear as LGBTQ plus people, it falls.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to wear it.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: You can come in and you can focus on your business, or if you're a job seeker, or if you're a nonprofit trying to, you know, bring more visibility to the important work you're doing.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to worry about who you are, vetting your words, you know, who you love.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: You just come in and you focus on being in community and doing what you're doing.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_02: I just love the idea of that if you're a woman-owned business and you need some help, some resources and things like that, this is definitely a place, a channel for you to get that.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_02: And then navigate all of those things, like you talked about, the certifications and the different programs you could take advantage of.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a a room full of people that know how to navigate this for you.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_02: And that can take away some of that challenge.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_01: And we have programming throughout the year for our small businesses, uh, women-owned businesses too, more specifically.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, we have a Thrive Small Business Summit that we do every January that is geared a day-long summit to help our small businesses, both with content, educational content, but we're literally doing a matchmaker where we're connecting them to somebody that may be seeking their services, whether it's somebody in supplier inclusion or an employee resource group, we're helping them raise their visibility and create connection and relationships in what we call this ecosystem.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you so much.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_02: I am fascinated by this topic, and I'm sorry I have gone all over the map on this.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that, you know, I guess if you had any advice for a woman that wanted to start a business in our community, let's say she's a part of our community and she wants to start a business, what would be the most crucial piece of advice that you would give to her?
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: Find resource and resources and support, and there's tons of them.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: Not just here at the chamber, but we have other collaboration partners as well.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: Was talking on the phone with one today about some work we're gonna do collaboratively together next year.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: There's all kinds of resources in this city to support women entrepreneurs.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: Everything from capability, cap capacity building programming.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: We did a program last year with Commissioner Adrian Garcia that was a six six-week-long program.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: Find those resources because laying the foundation is gonna ensure your success over the next three to five years.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: Five years is that pivotal number.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: So the more you can do to align and align with resources and supportive, excuse me, individuals, the better.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, and I think anybody that's facing that that's got you feel alone, I think, when you start a small business.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think you you really do.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I I'm really going out there on my own, but you have to realize there are people that have done it and done it successfully, and they can help you.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_02: And especially for women too.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: And chambers are the best place to find to find that support, whether it's ours.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's tons of diverse chambers in the in the city, and we always encourage people to join join one, join five where it aligns with what you're trying to accomplish.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: Most importantly, get the support, but don't go it alone, especially these days.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: Find those resources, find that support.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you definitely have to.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_02: You got to be careful about the political environment and everything else that's going on.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_02: You need those resources.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: So absolutely.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for being here for leading in business and leading the Greater Houston LGBTQ plus chamber of commerce.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_02: I know you've got tons of exciting events.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_02: That breakfast, as you mentioned, is super popular.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think you have a couple of lectures and things like that coming up.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the Kinder Institute is gonna present.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's gonna be a great luncheon, our community conversations luncheon.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm excited, and I'm excited that you are deciding to throw a spotlight on women in our community that own businesses.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you, and thank you for highlighting the importance of our our businesses, particularly women and the challenges they face.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_05: Heard on APFT Houston and as a podcast available from several podcasting sources.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_05: Check our webpage queervoices.org for more information.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_05: Queer Voices executive producer is Brian Levinka.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_05: Deborah Moncrief Bell is co-producer, Brett Cullum and David Mendoza Druisman are contributors.