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The Money Lessons We Were Never Taught (And How to Catch Up in Your 20s and 30s). · The Curve

• 0:00
  You now have over 100K invested. I'd love to speak about your particular investing strategy. I'm not really frugal in any way. I'm intentional and I'm conscious with my spending, but I'm not frugal. You know, don't buy coffee out, don't do whatever. Retirement is not an age, it's a financial state.
• 0:16
  Investing for the long term is like walking up stairs with a yo-yo. So your yo-yo is going up and down, but generally, because you're walking up the stairs, it's trending up. Like we all get negative feelings if you feel like you're behind or if you feel like you're jealous of something. It's about how you decide what to do with those feelings. I think my sister, she doesn't want her little sister telling her what to do.
• 0:36
  It's a confronting moment when you've got someone being like, I think you should do this, I want you to do this. So we asked your sister to send a voice note and just to explain her aversion to it. When I got to a certain age in my mid-thirsties, I think, goodness, I probably should have done X, Y, and Z. By this time, I've been maybe left out of a conversation, but also chose to be left out of that conversation because of the taboo circling around personal finances. Yeah.
• 1:04
  Kira, thank you so much for joining us. I am really looking forward to this episode. Just to preface for anyone listening, if you follow Kira on Instagram or socials, she's got an amazing platform. If you don't, highly recommend. What is the handle? So on TikTok, it's Kira underscore underscore Anne with an E on the end. And then on Instagram, it's Kira underscore underscore underscore Anne, just because Kira Anne was taken. How annoying. I know. I'm fighting to get it. I'll get it one day.
• 1:29
  We may need to spell Ciara. Yeah, so it's Irish and it's spelt C-I-A-R-A, but it's pronounced like Ciara, like Ciara Knightley. Yes. It's a bit of a funny one. Today what we wanted to discuss is everything about how you came to being in the space, creating such amazing content and inspiring so many people to start.
• 1:48
  paying attention, learning about investing. The way that you talk about investing and the decisions that you make with money, I think, are just so simple and straightforward. And so, yeah, I actually must say, I find your voice also very calming. Thank you. Like, I often watch your videos and I'm like, I think it has a bit of an ASMR effect on me. Yeah. I mean, if this doesn't go well, maybe that's the next thing. Huge money in ASMR. But I'd love to start this conversation by just asking, why do you think...
• 2:17
  And this is something we've spoken about off mic as well. Why do you think that women particularly are almost expected or perhaps lean more into this idea of playing dumb when it comes to money? I mean, can we just talk about where it's come from and why it's still so prevalent, particularly in the UK? Because I feel like it's worse here than Australia and New Zealand.
• 2:41
  I kind of agree. I think there's layers to it. The first layer is I think the UK find it very, very taboo, still very stiff upper lip about it. But then in terms of women, now, I've read a sub-psych article on this, but up until 1975, women couldn't get a credit card, they couldn't get a loan without their kind of husband or father's signature, even if they were earning more money than them, which is pretty crazy. And if you think about that date, that was 51 years ago.
• 3:08
  And so I sometimes think that we're a bit harsh on ourselves. Women just haven't been involved in this conversation for a long time. Like my mum was born in the 1960s. When she was born, women weren't able to have any financial agency whatsoever. So I think the first start is that we don't necessarily have the role models for that because we as a generation are probably one of the first financially agentic women. So it's pretty historical that we've not had that kind of ability to...
• 3:37
  to learn about finance. It's really odd to me when I think about that because I don't know if it's because when you're in your own echo chamber or all you've experienced is the life that you have, which is...
• 3:49
  women earn money, women are as smart as men, women have equal opportunity. It feels to me still like that because that's been my experience in the world. And I've been so privileged to grow up with men around me, you know, my dad, my brother, friends, where I've never felt less than. And that's been my experience. I know that's not the case all over the world. But to think that only 50 years ago that was so different, it's almost hard to relate to or –
• 4:16
  I think I find it hard to have compassion for how close that is to where we are now. So close, like so unbelievably close to where we are now. So I think that's kind of where it starts. And similarly to what you just said there, I think I actually had a very similar experience that growing up. I went to an all girls school. And so it was just like girls did everything. Girls can do everything and we do do everything.
• 4:36
  and I never felt less than or that I couldn't do that and so essentially I hadn't really thought about that before but yeah maybe other people have not had that experience and that's damaged their self-esteem and confidence into going into these things. The subset you're talking about I'd love to just unpack a bit about this whole like I'm just a girl the girl math trend so we spoke about this on the podcast a couple of years ago because Vic and I kept making jokes about it and I
• 5:01
  find the content still funny. There was this thing that came up the other day and it was this husband and wife. The husband said something like, okay, so you've returned that dress. So, so you got 400 back. And she's like, yeah. And he's like, so, so what are you, what are you going to spend that, that money on? You know, it was almost one of those like playing into the idea of I've taught my husband how to think girl math. Yeah. It's quite a funny video. So it's easy to fall into the trap of this is humorous.
• 5:27
  I love it. And it's kind of like it is fun and lighthearted until it's not like it's really funny to do those things. And I used to say all the time, like, I'm just a girl. I used to joke about it with my friends. But I've had people very close to me in my life who have been unable to do things that they want to because of their financial position and because maybe they defer to men in their life. And then it's really not funny. And so I know what you're saying because I feel it's funny as well. But when you see the flip side of it and how dangerous it can be.
• 5:54
  that's kind of why I'm, I'm not perfect. I still make comments. Someone commented on a video of mine the other day where I'd said something about like girlies. And then I'd also refer to men in the video and they'd commented like, why have you referred to girlies? But then also to men. I was like, yeah, I actually don't have a,
• 6:09
  something to say back to that. That's a fair comment. Like, why am I almost minimising women a bit and calling them girlies? We're all very agentic women and empowered women. But yeah, I call them girlies. So that I think I want to catch myself doing it. And I do it still now. And hopefully I'm getting better. And the reason why I'm trying to get better is because I can see down the line the impacts that it can have. Because that must be a lovely position if you can defer all your financial admin to your husband or your boyfriend and they do everything for you.
• 6:36
  And I truly hope that you have the most amazing, fulfilled relationship and it lasts the whole way. But what if it doesn't? And that's the position that you can be in. And if you have no idea, you know, how to pay your bills, like if you have a pension, if you have a stocks and shares ISA, all that kind of stuff, it takes away your agency. And that's when it starts to be an issue.
• 6:55
  My grandma, she was married. So my granddad died at 49 and she'd never written a check before. She'd never paid a bill. She was completely separate from the finances. And I look at what she's done and how she's lived her life because she really invested so cleverly in things like property. She's not spent above her means. But the shock and the impact that that had on her where she just had no choice but to learn and sort it out was terrifying.
• 7:23
  Never earned money. You know, it was like a huge adjustment. And again, you know, she's still alive. This is not that long ago. And my parents are divorced, so my mum found herself in a similar situation where she, you know, it's not rare that that happens. And actually, I think if we look at our audience, we've got such a broad spectrum of people listening. But…
• 7:43
  I could probably put money on the fact that the people who are in the older end of our demographic have probably been through a relationship breakup, looked around and thought, shit, I really need to sort this out. I'm going to have to learn about it and then found the curve and have started learning and are now really empowered. And we do get stories from people like that. Yeah.
• 8:04
  if you can preempt the potential of something like that happening, I think it's not just looking at, okay, if it all went tits up, what would I do and what would happen? But I personally, and I'd love to know if it's the same for you, I also feel more, I feel like I,
• 8:22
  I'm a different person in the world because I know more about money. I feel genuinely like I show up to work, to social situations, to dates, to a relationship in a more confident way. And I don't know if that's been your experience over the last few years learning about money.
• 8:39
  Yeah. Do you know what it makes me think of? It makes me think of my niece, who's my goddaughter. She's two going on three and she is just so confident in herself. And like, sometimes you'll catch her saying things like, I'm great to herself. And she's so like, I don't want to say it melts my heart. I'm great. Yeah. Or she's like, I love myself. She's just so like...
• 8:59
  My God, her parents are doing a wonderful job. Yeah, it's my sister's daughter. And like, she just, she's so happy and confident in herself and has no qualms. And it's like, well, where did women lose that along the way? And then I wonder, did we lose it along the way when we started inheriting and then internalizing the tropes of, I'm just a girl, girl math, you can't do it, that kind of stuff. And I wonder if that's where we kind of got lost along the way.
• 9:24
  I do agree that I feel more confident in the world now that I have a better financial understanding and a better kind of course I've made for myself. One of the things I always talk about is people just having an emergency fund. And, you know, I didn't have one until a couple of years ago. And that for me is just like it's a financial buffer between me and the world. Yeah.
• 9:45
  If I'm in a job that I don't like, you can be like, okay, I can leave this and go to the next thing. Thankfully, I am in a job that I really like. But there are options that you give yourself in doing that. The key word for me, I think, is just agency. Like maybe I should get like tattooed on my forehead. I don't know. I really like your face without a forehead tattoo. What you just said in terms of your niece as well as your own experience –
• 10:07
  I do think there's this, you have to experience it to believe it, that is really hard to talk about with people in a theoretical way. And we'll get to that more in a minute because I think that really discussing how we can help to change that. Correct.
• 10:24
  faster with friends, with family, talking about money is allergic to someone until it's not. And breaking through that barrier, I think it's almost like if you said to someone that is constantly throwing their rubbish on the ground, that's really bad for the environment.
• 10:40
  they're probably going to not want to listen to you and look in the other direction. But if someone saw someone else picking up rubbish, there's something in the act of observing rather than being told. And you're an amazing example to so many people in your life and people online. You know, you didn't know about investing a few years ago. You've really upskilled and then done it. And so I think talking about it's really great. But also the idea of the emergency fund, it's crazy to think that it's not as though you haven't been in a financial position to create one. Oh, yeah. It just wasn't even on your radar to do it.
• 11:08
  I think that litter picking example has actually hit on something really fundamental, which is I struggle even in my own life to convince people that I know that are close to me to do these kind of things. But then when you get to be a bit of a voyeur and look into someone else, which is exactly what content is, is that there's no judgment.
• 11:27
  Either way, because I don't know your financial situation. I can't see you from the other end of the phone. But you get to look into my life and see how it's going. And that's kind of like you're watching someone pick up the litter. You're watching someone do something good. And they're not passing judgment or anything back at you. Whereas I do think it can be confronting if a friend or a family member, probably it's always going to be me being like...
• 11:46
  Open a Stocks and Shares ISA, like you need to do these kind of things. But also, I mean, did you have that experience before you started this content? You know, when did you first have a conversation or someone introduced you to the idea of it? And how long did it take for you to first be introduced to actually doing something regularly about it?
• 12:06
  So the person that I knew was my boyfriend at the time had an ISA and he's one that kind of spoke me through it. That I think having someone that I knew that was doing it was good. But I'll be honest, the majority of my learning came from online. And then to be honest, the algorithm just did me a favour. Like it just served me this stuff. And that was just the easiest way to do it. And it wasn't even like I had to sit down and force myself to read a book I didn't want to read. I would just be scrolling in the evening and suddenly be like, oh, this is what the CTF is doing. And
• 12:33
  This is a stocks and shares ISA. And this is how impressive compound growth is after a long period of time. And I mean, I personally love a compound growth example because it just demonstrates like the craziness. It's so motivating, isn't it? So motivating. And that's kind of it. It triggered some motivation in me. And I was like, okay, let's just give it a go. And also, this was during COVID. So I couldn't really go out. Couldn't spend my money anyway. Found a hobby. Yeah, found a hobby. And it just, you know, I just started dollar cost averaging into a stocks and shares ISA.
• 13:00
  And then it kind of went from there. What would you say your relationship was like pre-investing? And how has it changed in the last couple of years? It was more ostrichy, like head in the sand, like wasn't really looking at it. I wasn't bad with money. Like I didn't, I didn't overspend on a credit card and I was like earning good money. So I would be, I wouldn't say I was budgeting. I've never really had a formal budget that I stick to. But I was aware of my incomings and outgoings. I wasn't really ever going into debt. Obviously, when I was at uni, I lived in my student overdraft. But I think that's a common experience for everyone.
• 13:28
  So it was just, it was average. It wasn't good. It wasn't bad. It wasn't planning in the future. I wasn't looking to the future. It was more just like, how am I going to do this right now? And that's kind of understandable when you're like 22, 23. No one's thinking about a pension. But the fact in the UK that you are forcibly like opted in, I think is a really good thing. And then as you are forcibly opted in, if you actually look at your pension, you'll be like, oh, I actually do have a little pot of money now.
• 13:51
  I looked the other day and I had £10,000, which I know is still in its infancy. However, I thought this is actually so genius. I didn't even know it was there. Yeah. All of a sudden I have £10,000. I didn't know that. It's so cool. Well, this is embarrassing. So before I started this whole journey of being a bit more financial literate, I had no idea where my pensions were. Like, not a clue. Oh.
• 14:14
  I found myself in a balanced fund without realizing. And we preach like absolute martyrs about the importance of being, if you're young, being clever and realizing you can go into an adventurous fund. And the idea of risk is terrifying. And we really try and reframe that as like, think of it as a spice chart. This is such a weird example. And I don't know if it's a good one, but let's say you had a –
• 14:41
  meal that was really spicy, if you had your cup of milk or something, you can balance out what might be a little bit spicy because you're prepared. Do you know what I mean? The idea of being in a really spicy, aka risky or growth fund may be scary for people because they think that it's going to be going up and down and you're going to lose money. I think that's what a lot of people who haven't invested yet think. But really, the whole point is if you look at the last 30 years of the stock market, it's gone up to the right by an average of 10 to 11%.
• 15:10
  every year. So that's not then scary if you're young and you've got time. But I found myself in a balanced fund and I was like, girls, I like sent everyone a Slack message being like, everyone check their pensions. I'm accidentally in the moderate. Make sure you're not, you know, not advice, not advice, but like, please look into this. But yeah, I wonder when you first started learning about investing and you were starting to see, okay, like dollar cost averaging, which we'll go into and explain in a second or compounding interest again, we'll go into it in
• 15:39
  principles when you were first digging it and that you were like, oh, it's not landing. This one's really hard. I think understanding how much compound growth compounds at the very end is almost incomprehensible to most people. Like it is almost incomprehensible. It's why it's the eighth one to the world by Warren Buffett. And that's why I actually really like those principles.
• 15:58
  graphs or diagrams that show it to you because I couldn't really get my head around that because when you first start it and like I get it like you know I'm so it's probably the starting end of my investing journey someone explains it to you and they're like yeah you put a thousand pounds and you get 10 so you get a hundred pounds and then you've got a thousand and a hundred invested and I'm like
• 16:16
  whoop-de-doo. Yeah, and then it's interest on interest and you're like, oh God. And then you're starting with a higher base. I'm like, I don't get it. Yeah. It's kind of going completely. And another thing actually I would, I think that I struggled with at the start is when people always used to be like, it's tax-free and ice is tax-free. And I'd be like, what?
• 16:32
  What does that even mean? Yeah, because you don't even think of the idea of being taxed on money you're earning. Completely. And I think that was a really fundamental basis. I'm sure that most of the Curve listeners do already know. But the fact that if you buy an ETF and it goes from £100 to £200, you have to pay tax on the £100. But if it's in the stocks and shares ISA, you don't pay tax on that. And for me, that was a light bulb moment. I was like, oh, I see what you mean it's tax free. Oh, I get more money. I get more money. Yeah.
• 17:00
  I get it. Yeah, I agree. And for anyone that thinks about or isn't quite sure what compound interest means, if you can look at this visually, I think just quickly look at the screen and we'll just put up a graph that shows the money you put in over a period of time and then there'll be the interest you earn on the money that's already invested. And you can see over a long period of time, it goes really steep at the top.
• 17:22
  And it just shows that if you have money investor over a long period of time, this idea of compounding interest and making lots more money in the later years, it's just if you just see a visual, just trust us. It's amazing. It was actually the those pieces of content were actually one of them went viral. It's got like over a million views. And it's kind of what started my content journey really going off is because I did a compound growth worked example of just if you were investing, you know, X amount per month.
• 17:50
  how much you would have when you got to 60 or how much do you need to invest per month to retire a millionaire at 60. And those pieces of content, you know, really went viral and had a lot of, had so many people messaging me after that being like, how do I do this? How do I get involved? Also being like, is this true? Yeah, it is true. But like, there's other things to take into consideration. But yeah, like this is how it works. And that was really inspirational to people. And so I think actually understanding compound growth is one of those light bulb moments. Do you know what I think it is as well?
• 18:18
  For me, the reason that I started caring or paying attention or really wanting to learn about investing seriously was when I had something, it was like £5,000 or something, that I didn't want to lose. I wanted to protect and grow it. And I think the compound interest example is a way to extrapolate out the success of investing over a long period of time in a way that actually feels like a real win because the idea of earning £30 on –
• 18:44
  an investment is really blah for a lot of us that are so addicted to instant gratification. But if you can show someone over a long period of time how enormous those are, those returns, I think that the impact it has is much stronger than those sort of two, three year returns, because they're not that exciting. They're not that exciting. And to be honest, I actually don't really check my investments that much at all. Like I'm just, I'm trusting the process. I'm trusting Warren Buffett in his
• 19:14
  Yeah, I just don't think it's trying to look at it every day going up and down. It just adds more stress. It's a long term goal and you've got to take a long term view. And some people actually really hate that. And I actually think that's another reason why people really struggle with personal finance is, you know,
• 19:29
  you are talking about worst case scenarios, something going wrong in an emergency fund, retiring, getting old and not being happy and like making people think about, you know, 10, 20, 30, 40 years in the future. But a lot of people don't think two, three, four years in the future. Two weeks. Exactly. And so I kind of think it's not just the money. It's what the money is also then making you think about. It's so avoidant. Yeah. It's funny because the idea of retirement, we found that as well.
• 19:56
  in events that we did or Vic would always try and suggest like really early when we started this podcast to talk about retirement money and I just was uninterested it was not a thing I thought no one cared about that and to be honest I hadn't even really thought about the idea that you need to save and have money when you stop working which sounds so rudimentary but I just hadn't thought about it do you know what was actually such a light bulb moment for me with this is
• 20:26
  I just loved it. Wow. Yeah. Powerful. It's actually then because otherwise you feel like you're just waiting to get to retirement age. And no one actually even wants to get old anyway. Exactly. And it's like if I think about, you know, 80-year-old me, maybe I don't really want to think about that. But if you can say, okay, well, if I get to a financial state where I can retire in my 40s, that is motivating and that is exciting.
• 20:46
  We tried to rebrand it to the 20 year holiday because we thought maybe that sounds a little bit more exciting than you're getting crusty and sitting on a couch and not able to do anything. But even that indicates the idea that you only have 20 years left to live, which is scary in itself. So maybe it's because I think the financial independence or the financial freedom also doesn't really hit. Like we need to find a name for it, I think, which is just, it's not retirement. It's not financial independence. It's.
• 21:14
  I don't have a name for it, but the thing that I kind of look towards is CoastFi. You might have heard about it before. Basically CoastFire. So it's a little bit of a watered down version of Fire. Fire is obviously financial independence, retire early. CoastFi is where you've got enough money invested that if you stopped investing anything else...
• 21:31
  your investments would carry you through to a great retirement. And then in those in-between years, you're kind of a bit more work optional. You've just got to keep going, keep the lights on for what you want to do then. So then you might be able to take a career that is less demanding or something that's a bit more of a passion project that still pays you, but not crazy amounts. And you can work out your COSIFI number and it's motivating. We've had Mia O'Grath on this podcast before. She's amazing. The way that she invests and thinks about it, which I think is also quite different when you're in your early 20s than 30s,
• 22:00
  It's not for some people, but for me, I'm not super motivated by the idea of sacrificing kind of almost all the things that I want to do in the moment to be able to then retire early. I completely understand the concept, but for me, it doesn't really get a fire at my... Completely. So I met Mia the other day, and Mia was actually a real inspiration for me for starting this content stuff, and I said that to her. And I'd always thought that Mia had done an amazing job at going for the kind of Gen Zers, and she'd gone through this...
• 22:27
  frugal state to get there and that's you know frugal she can she said amazing things and i just looked and i thought i would love to do this on a more millennial audience but also avoiding frugality like i'm not really frugal in any way i'm i'm intentional and i'm conscious with my my spending but i'm not frugal neither and you know i mean i have to be kind of but but i'm not i'm not someone that i don't thrive or feel great when i'm really restricted it doesn't work for me i turned up here today with a coffee because like i'm gonna buy coffee out
• 22:54
  Because I think it tastes better. That is a kind of frugal mindset, which is like, you know, don't buy coffee out, don't do whatever. And I think there's a different way. And you're right. Maybe you might get there a little bit slower, but it might be a more enjoyable journey. Yeah. Okay. What do we think is the way to pitch that idea to people who are allergic to money? Because I know for you, you shared a story with me, how, you know, someone really close to you, your sister, who you have an amazing relationship with, you know, you know, you
• 23:21
  didn't quite come around to the idea and really needed to be taken through it in a way that was almost quite one-on-one. Can you share what was happening? And it's really interesting to me how there's almost like this money moment where people just sort of wake up. It's not an age thing. They just start to care. And if someone's not in that money moment or they have their interest in that space, it's really hard to get through to them. Can you share what
• 23:48
  that experience was with your sister? Yeah. So my sister is incredibly successful and competent. You know, she owns her own business. She employs like six people full time. She has two kids. And I think her business now like does multiple six figures turnover. And she's won like awards for entrepreneurship. So like she's incredibly competent, incredibly capable. But whenever I would talk to her about personal finance rather than like business finance...
• 24:14
  it wasn't hitting, it wasn't landing. It was always just a bit like, oh, for God's sake, Kira, like, why are you going on about this again? And I kind of understand that because it's a confronting moment when you've got someone being like, I think you should do this. I want you to do this. And if I'm being honest, I don't think I've mastered doing it in person. I actually haven't because I really had to force my sister to open stocks and shares either. I'm not going
• 24:34
  But the reason for the content is because I don't think it's as confronting by doing it that way, is that someone can dip in, dip out. And it's me not looking at your financial situation. And that is a bit more encouraging. I get a lot of messages online being like, you've really inspired me to start or I've opened a stock and all that kind of stuff. So for me, that has been the most fruitful way of communicating to people how to look at personal finance.
• 24:58
  I think my sister would have felt that she doesn't want her little sister telling her what to do, you know. And I think there's an embarrassment or just you feel like you maybe should have figured this out or maybe you should have understood it a bit sooner. I think that's where it comes from. And it's easier in that moment to just shun that feeling and being like, no, not for me. Don't want to think about it. It's annoying.
• 25:19
  And I get that because I also felt like that. I didn't initially want to do it. And you do feel behind. So we asked your sister to send a voice note and just to explain her aversion to it. We were talking off mic about how it would be really helpful for those who are already on the investing bandwagon to understand some of the emotional reasons why people are hesitant.
• 25:43
  to try and brainstorm together how we can communicate better in person. Because a lot of people don't want to start a content creator account, but also really want to help the people around them. For sure. So I'd love to play this from her, and then we can maybe have a little team brainstorm about what came up. I actually haven't listened to these yet, so I'm quite excited to hear.
• 26:03
  When you get to, well, for me anyway, when I got to a certain age in my mid-thirties, I think, oh, goodness, I probably should have done X, Y and Z by this time. I thought paying into my pension was enough. Having a mortgage was enough. Obviously growing up business so that I can have some more disposable income in the future. I've always thought that all of that was enough.
• 26:20
  But in the back of my head, there's always that I've never even dipped my toe into the world of investing because I feel like I should have done something like that by now. Why haven't I done that? I just then close that conversation down in my head because I feel like there's that embarrassment that you should be where you should be a certain place by a certain age milestone. And certainly whenever Kira raises a conversation about money, I do a little eye roll. Sorry, Kira.
• 26:43
  Not because what she's saying is inaccurate or wrong, but I think it just comes from my own personal sensitivities. I think, gosh, if my little sister is having to tell me about personal finance again, goodness, why am I not where I need to be? Actually, it was a really wonderful conversation because it's the first time I think I was more open to it. And just looking into the future and where I could best put my funds. And that was investing and opening a stocks and shares ISA, which I'm now investing in every single month.
• 27:11
  And it is not as scary as I thought it would be. In fact, it was far less daunting when Kira took me through the steps. It now just goes out of my bank account every single month. I don't even think about it, in all honesty. And there's so much information online about what you should be doing with your finances, where your money should be going.
• 27:27
  I think that real sheer volume of information can be quite overwhelming and confusing as well. So just knowing that I just trust my sister with my whole heart and just being open then to actually, OK, here's the advice. Maybe I should follow it. It just feels so much less daunting now I'm actually actively doing it. I feel like I've been...
• 27:46
  Maybe left out of a conversation, but also chose to be left out of that conversation because of the taboo circling around personal finances. I now feel much more confident and comfortable about my own relationship with money and investing since we had that conversation.
• 28:01
  God, that's a really cute voice note. That's very, very my sister. It's really sweet. But I think, yeah, you're right. It obviously does come down to just that. It's like the avoidance piece when you haven't done something. It's so much easier to compartmentalize and just keep moving through the phase of avoidance because it's too scary to face it.
• 28:20
  The thing that she said at the end actually really got me, which was I feel like I've been left out of a conversation, but also I was like leaving myself out of the conversation. And I think that's fair. Like it's not taught in schools. So you do actually have to fight to be a bit part of the conversation. And it's actually not a conversation that women have. Again, another one of the reasons for starting the content was I didn't really have any female friends to talk about it with. I know I have loads, but like at the time, women weren't really talking about it at all. And I think, yeah, part of that is that,
• 28:48
  They weren't involved in the conversation and then took a step back and like I actively don't want to be part of this conversation because it's triggering negative feelings in me. And I've had a interesting journey with deciding how to react to negative feelings. Like we all get negative feelings, be that if you feel like you're behind or if you feel like you're jealous of something. And it's about how you decide what to do with those feelings. You can either run away from them.
• 29:12
  or you can either lean into them and be like, wait, why am I feeling like this? And instead of just looking away, how can I change my relationship with that feeling? And so for personal finance, for example, I think the way to change your relationship with it is to learn about it. And actually there will be a bit of a curve and you will have to go through some feelings of like...
• 29:30
  God, I wish I'd have started this sooner or, oh, I feel a bit behind. But at the other side of that is feeling proud that you've done something for yourself, a bit more competent with it. And personally, for me, I think that's the way to do it is just to go through the feeling rather than to avoid it. Because otherwise you'll get 5, 10, 15 years down the line. You've still got that feeling. You've still avoided it. Whereas if you'd have just addressed it on day one and been like, I'm going to go into this feeling.
• 29:55
  It's so interesting that you use that example. Two things to add. So I really agree. I think that particularly like using jealousy as a bit of a compass. If you, for example, find yourself feeling jealous of someone and you kind of, it's actually one of the worst things to feel. I hate the feeling of jealousy.
• 30:11
  I'll never forget, this was years and years ago, a friend started a yoga account. And this was at the time that I actually really wanted to teach yoga, but I was so scared of public speaking. So I didn't do it. And I remember seeing her account and feeling so raging jealous at her. And it was the same thing. I used it as, oh my God, I realized the reason I'm jealous is because she's doing what I want to do.
• 30:36
  Rather than putting that onus or that feeling into how it was sort of bubbling up, it was actually just more, okay, right, I need to actually just take note of this. And so it's actually helpful now if I notice myself feeling jealous. It's because someone has something or is doing something I want. And that's helpful when it can be so confusing to figure out what you want to do with your time, your life, your money. I think that's good.
• 30:59
  Also, that's such a great example, because like if you'd have told me about that person who started the yoga account and I'd seen it, I would have felt zero jealousy. Like, don't get me wrong. I love yoga as much as the next person. Not offended. But it's just not it's not something that drives me and that I want. And so, yeah, I think just flip the script on that and be like, why am I jealous? And again, go through that feeling.
• 31:19
  Work out what it's for. And then if it's like, okay, what actions can I take to not feel this feeling of jealousy? And, you know, for me, one of those is like, sometimes I felt jealous about people doing content around personal finance. So I was like, I think I can do this. I think I've got a take on this that is really useful.
• 31:35
  And I went through that feeling of jealousy and just to be like, I'm just going to do it. And now the feelings of jealousy are replaced with pride for doing it myself, excitement for where it's going and just an appreciation for the hard work that goes into it. And I don't feel jealous anymore. I'm really proud of that now because I'm at the other end of it.
• 31:53
  I think the idea of going through a feeling as well, whether it's jealousy or anything else, I will never forget this piece of advice a friend gave me when I was going through my last breakup. It was like two years ago. Your brain is trying to avoid this uncomfortable feeling because it wants to fix it. It's trying to find a solution to get rid of that feeling. The best thing you can do to process it is sit in it and actually really magnify it. So I was like blasting sad Taylor Swift songs.
• 32:19
  bawling my eyes out. But I got through that breakup in such a powerful way where I moved through the feeling rather than carrying it for a really long time. And I think that's something that no one had ever really talked to me about or explained. And I think it's true for any feeling. If you sit in that, for example, fear, if you're scared of the idea of what it means to learn about money, that's actually, that's okay. But like, unless you sit with the fear and let it magnify and then learn and get your way through it,
• 32:47
  you may learn about it but not actually process that emotion of fear and still approach your finances in quite a fearful way. So I think that's really great advice. I'd love to speak about your particular investing strategy because you now have over $100K invested, which is amazing. You invest quite passively in a lot of ETFs. But can I ask you, how do you invest? Do you have a strategy? How do you explain it?
• 33:12
  I would say that my investing has evolved and changed. Or was it the outset I have to say, hashtag not financial advice. Oh God, yes. Not financial advice. Know and do what we say. Learn about it. Learn about it. Learn through the emotions, etc. Also, some of the disclaimers can really scare people. And so if you don't explain them properly, because obviously you have to say capital is at risk when investing. Like your investment can go up as well as down. People are just like, what do you mean it can go down? Like,
• 33:35
  I don't want to be risky. Why would it be risky? Exactly, completely. But then it's like, well, what's the risk you're taking by leaving your money in cash that's getting eaten by inflation? And that's definitely going to happen. It's way riskier. Yeah. So the disclaimers are important, but I think they sometimes need a bit of context. Oh, God, yeah. But anyway, having said that, this is not financial advice. So my investing journey has changed a bit. So yeah, I actually haven't checked how much I've now got invested, but I think probably –
• 34:00
  Yeah, definitely over 200K now. Oh my, wow, amazing. And I started just doing dollar cost averaging, which is essentially you put in a certain specified amount every single month. And that is a passive, easy way of investing. It's one of the ways that Warren Buffett says to invest is just low cost ETF funds or index funds. And you just put a certain amount in every month. Really easy. You don't have to do anything to it because what you're doing is you're buying at the
• 34:27
  peak of the market, but also when it dips as well. So if there are those kind of fluctuations, which there will be, you're buying at the top and the bottom. And so over a long period of time, that should even out. And generally, and this is something that another follower said that I really liked, is they were like, investing for the long term is like walking up stairs with a yo-yo. And so your yo-yo is going up and down. But generally, because you're walking up the stairs, it's trending up.
• 34:51
  So if you looked at a graph. I love that. Yeah, going up and down, but it's trending up. But that's kind of evolved now. I'd say that I, I don't know what we want to call it, but something like. Okay, so we've been talking about this. Off mic, how do we rebrand this idea? Once you catch the excitement around investing, it's kind of addictive and in a healthy way. So if you're someone, and I'm the same as you, where I get excited, I like learning about what's happening in the market. I never thought I cared about the economy. I now really enjoy understanding what's going on.
• 35:21
  And then how I can make money through investing with that information in mind. And so this idea of sort of morphing what is a really traditional old school investing approach, dollar cost averaging, Kira has this really cool thing that she does that's a bit different. And we're trying to think about how we can reframe it or what we call it.
• 35:39
  Yeah, so there is something called modified dollar cost averaging, and I guess it's kind of my own take on that, which is kind of, I'm going to call it curated dollar cost averaging, which is just essentially, say you had £15,000 over a year to invest, and maybe you're taking that out of your salary every month.
• 35:55
  What dollar cost averaging would say is that you would do 1,250 every month. You just take that 15, divide it by 12, and you monthly put in that amount. The thing that I've kind of started to do is to say, I'm still going to dollar cost average. I'm still going to put in a specific amount every month. Let's say 1,000 pounds, just to keep the math simple. But I'm going to hold back the 250 each month. So overall, that will be about 3 grand at the end of the year.
• 36:18
  And say, okay, if there is a moment where the market is dipping, I'm going to deploy that additional capital. That's a very fancy way of saying it. Oh, I love it. It's so powerful. I'm deploying it. Deploying it. No, I'm just going to put more money into the market. So that £3,000 that I had held back, I'm actually going to put in at this point because I think we're going through a dip and that the market's going to go back up again. Now, I personally...
• 36:38
  just go for ETFs. I don't invest in individual stocks. The kind of amazing analysis that Vic does to work out like is a company overvalued? When's good? Incredible. But you need to know what you're doing. And you need to be like, very, very heavily researched into that. And I just, I'm not an idea of the time. So I'm an ETF girly through and through. Sorry, she's an ETF
• 36:58
  I did it. I'm an ETF queen. It's right, we're all working on it. Yeah, but I know what you mean. So for anyone listening, an ETF, do you want to give a really simple explanation? So an ETF is basically, instead of buying an individual...
• 37:14
  stock or share in a company, you're buying a basket of them. So it will be, you know, you might buy a one that's focused on tech. And so it will have like Nvidia in it and lots of other different stocks. And so instead of buying the individual, you're buying a group of them. So if one goes down, or one goes up, you're kind of cushioned to the up and downsides of that. And it's seen as a more diversified approach, and therefore less risky, because if you're just invested in one individual stock, and that goes down, your whole portfolio is going down kind of
• 37:44
  who is for anyone that hasn't listened to this podcast before one of the other co-hosts on the curve and her background was in stock picking so she she's she's been a portfolio manager which basically means a professional investor so she's managed like millions and millions of dollars on behalf of clients so she makes these decisions on what should she invest in based on the research she's doing yeah
• 38:04
  which is so impressive and so interesting. And I love learning about it. And in our Curve weekly podcast where we look at what's happening, there's a podcast we put out on Monday and Wednesdays for anyone that's never listened. And it's basically what's her analysis and what is the interpretation of what's happening in the market and how can we learn from it. And so to circle it back, sorry to sound like I'm in a boardroom, but to go back to your curated dollar cost averaging, a really good example might be, say, Vic is talking about
• 38:33
  oh, God, what's the stock that's in the news? Let's just use Amazon. Let's say it has gone absolutely off a cliff. It's made a weird decision or something's come out in the news. And we know because we understand investing that the value of that business has not gone anywhere yet. There are investors who have panicked and pulled their money out. Therefore, the stock's gone down. You may decide this feels like an opportunity. I'm going to use some of that money I've held back to put in it. Or it might be a total market dip where everything's just fallen because, I don't know, Trump's put a tariff in or whatever. Yeah.
• 39:02
  Yeah, that's the kind of idea about it. But what I would say is that, for me, I'd graduated from, maybe, hopefully, I have gone from beginner to at least intermediate. I mean, Vic is like, you know, next level. But I would say I'm kind of in the intermediate bucket. It's actually wild to think about, isn't it? She's wild. I don't think I will. She's wild.
• 39:18
  The way her brain works and how analytical she is with her research is so cool. And also I think when you kind of have an understanding of what goes into that, you actually realize how unbelievably clever she is. But I'm humble enough to know that I don't do that kind of research. Very smart, but in different areas. We all have our strengths. All have our strengths.
• 39:36
  So, yeah, for me, it's more just like ETFs and a bit more diversified. But now I'm in that intermediate level. I would say initially when I started, I kind of didn't want to know what was going on in the market. And I kind of was like, look, I'm dollar cost averaging in. I'm just doing my basic thing, buying low cost ETFs. Great. And then when I was like, I've got a bit of skin in the game here now. I'm interested in this. Like I understand a bit more of the mechanics of what's going on. I am ready and I feel ready to take a little bit more risk, not with my entire portfolio, but.
• 40:03
  But with a small amount that I have saved in a little side pocket each month, I could maybe be like, oh, actually, let's try something a bit here. So that's how I feel about it. I feel like now that I've gone up to the intermediate stage, I'm ready for a bit of curated dollar cost averaging, but still majority I'm just dollar cost averaging in. Yeah. And I think that's a really good example of understanding and knowing your own. Everyone talks about this and you'll hear it a lot in investing, particularly if you're following more male like influencers or content creators or people who have worked in the
• 40:32
  they talk about risk appetite and I really struggle with this as a definition because I think it's just such a confusing concept and it's so easy. Basically, what it actually just means is you invest in a way that makes sense to you and like the way you were investing dollar cost averaging, you knew it was a successful long-term strategy. You'd built wealth that way and now you know enough to feel confident doing something a little bit different. What's that?
• 40:57
  which is technically more risky, but it's actually not because you understand it. And so I think it's just as knowing, you know, you will get more confidence the more you do it. And also the idea of risky, you know, would be, say, perhaps you going, do you know what, this month I'm actually not going to do my normal ETF and I'm just going to go all in on something random, you know. And for some people that might be fine for them. Yeah. Yeah.
• 41:19
  We talk a lot on this podcast about we're building long-term sustainable wealth. This shouldn't be scary. It shouldn't be all over the show. And so I think it's just about knowing how you want to invest. And most women want to do it in that way. Do you know what's amazing about that? Because I obviously beat the long-term investing, like long-term growth.
• 41:35
  is that what happens a lot on social media is that there will be fake accounts that are created of me on TikTok or Instagram. And it will be scam artists basically pretending to be me and trying to say, hey, sign up to this link and I can get you like crypto or I can do whatever. Yeah, it's constant. I'm like constantly fighting, reporting them to TikTok. What a waste of time. How annoying. But then what's amazing is that my followers will message me and be like, don't worry, I didn't fall for it. I knew you'd never do something like that. Iconic. Like we knew that you were always talking about long term, like you would never do a quick,
• 42:05
  Yes, don't you just love when you hear that and you know your audience is actually learning the thing that you're – it's so amazing. So grateful for that. It's like whenever there's a huge market dip, now our audience is like, right, I'm ready for my shop, you know, rather than I'm freaking out, I'm going to sell my shares. It's actually – they can see it as an opportunity in the same way you do your curated dollar for severaging.
• 42:24
  The thing that I also find so interesting is that so much about investing is about your psychology. It really is about your psychology. And I think that, yeah, the risk profile is just about how would you feel if there was a massive dip in the market? And how would you react to that? Do you know if you're the kind of person that could ride that wave out or you pull your money out? Because if you're the kind of person that would pull your money out, maybe you shouldn't be investing in that high risky thing.
• 42:45
  Because the idea is if you want to invest, you should leave that money in at least for five years. So if you're going to have a knee-jerk freak-out reaction and pull your money out if something's gone down, which is fair and a lot of people would feel like that, it's just that's not a good way to invest is to invest, pull out, invest, pull out. So then it's about finding a different investment asset or asset class. Or just in your portfolio, you've got to be looking at different things that are less volatile, maybe like bonds or something like that, you know. But yeah, it is all about psychology and about knowing yourself. I agree.
• 43:14
  Can we talk about some of your favorite ETFs? Again, this is not advice. There's so many different ETFs, and I know you invest in lots of different things. The S&P 500 is the top 500 companies in America. There's maybe 100 different versions of that that are just called different things. It might seem like there's a lot, but really there's some quite iconic ETFs.
• 43:35
  tried and true like you can buy an ETF that's a global ETF that invests in every company. Do you have any that you do that are maybe I don't know slightly different to those? I have and I'm going to forget the name of it now but I have an ESG developed all world one. I think it's Vanguard and I think I put about a
• 43:55
  a couple of years ago i think it's got about three grand in it and it's now returned me like 5.8 wow like it's done amazingly well what i really love about that one is it's an esg fund and it's like yeah you can invest in a good way in a way that you feel happy about and it'd be good for the planet so yeah that's that's probably one of my faves but generally i'm pretty boring in my investing i just go for yeah
• 44:16
  S&P 500, maybe some of the FTSE all world, those kind of things. The only thing I'd say about that is if you are doing, it's to have a look at the allocations, because if you've got S&P 500 and an all world, you're actually doubling up on a lot of those things because the same companies will be in both. So it's just about having a look a little bit under the hood and what's in those.
• 44:35
  One of the things that I think can be really contentious, particularly around friends, a lot of people who listen to our podcast, and I think the way, probably because of the people we have on, and also Vic and I went to school together, so we try and make it feel like you are listening with friends or learning with friends, but…
• 44:54
  I think it would be not honest to avoid the conversation of jealousy within friendship groups, within how much someone else might need to retire. There is definitely judgment around like how much other people earn still. And I think it can be really disempowering and emotional, honestly. I don't know if you've thought about it or if you have any advice. Yeah, I mean, I think money in friendship groups is a tough subject and definitely probably one that's just under the radar. People don't really, really talk about it.
• 45:23
  I mean, for me, I definitely, and I'm not saying that anyone had done anything wrong, but when I first started my content, I blogged everyone I knew. It was to do with my own kind of embarrassment about it. I mean, it's really scary. Really scary. You've never done it before, and you're putting yourself out there massively. I completely, wholeheartedly support the idea of blogging anyone. I think I would do the same if I didn't have a...
• 45:49
  co-host or a business partner? I think, yeah, people that have started their own thing know what it's like to stare at a screen that says zero followers, zero posts. I have to put something out. Well, I'm wanting to put something out. And then also in the kind of industry, you have to do what's known as providing credibility. Like, why should you listen to me? You know, you're not going to listen to me if I'm just a random person that's popping up on your screen. I'm like, this is all you should do. Whereas if I say, look, I've got...
• 46:15
  100k 200k invested I've got skin in the game and you're explaining that you're much more likely to people to be like oh you're you're credible you understand this let me let me follow you and listen more and so part of the whole blocking thing for me was that I felt really embarrassed saying online to people I knew hey look what I've done in terms of finances it's inherently not British it's like what we spoke about the very beginning of this podcast it's like the opposite of how we're taught to behave and speak about money yeah
• 46:42
  Yeah. And I think I don't necessarily think it was the wisest thing to do because ultimately people find you and then probably feel a bit upset that they were blocked anyway. So it's a tough. But I think also the flip side of that is it was probably kind of scary for you to have to start every video with the credibility piece because you know you need to.
• 47:02
  But it's not as though you're going to go and meet someone on the street and say, hi, I'm Kara. I've got 100 grand invested. Nice to meet you. You know, it is quite vulnerable. When we first started the curve, it was very similar for Vic. She saved and invested 100 grand before she went full time in the curve because she wanted to have a buffer. This is at the point where we were earning money. I'd worked full time for two years, but she still wanted that backstop. And I said to her, this is such an amazing achievement to talk about. Can we talk about it publicly that this is what you did to be able to go full time?
• 47:32
  And there was a lot of hesitancy around that, around talking about her property. She's got millions invested in property. She's so financially successful. And it's exactly the same thing. It's so scary to talk about. And you feel like you're being a show-off. Well, yeah. But you're not.
• 47:50
  Well, you don't know what you're triggering in someone. And, you know, for some people, I get loads of amazing messages from people being like, this has really inspired me to start investing. And this is really inspirational. And that's kind of the hope of it. But you also don't know that someone might turn around and be like, oh, God, shut up, you're gloating. Like, but some people might actually decide, this is actually going to trigger something for me in a positive way. And I want to learn. And if I can find those people, great, I'm going to try.
• 48:15
  And I think it comes from such a good place that it can be really hard as well, I think, to take negative feedback from anybody, but specifically and way worse when it comes from someone you know. And so I think that, you know, I mean, if we get a negative comment or someone's like saying you did this, whatever, it's actually we're all human and I'm an emotional gal, you know, I'm a sensitive Sally and I find it hard. And if when I first started, if those were coming from people I knew, I don't know if I would have ever done it.
• 48:44
  you know do you know what i think that's it it was so fragile when i started it six months ago i was so fragile about it honestly if i'd have had one person be like this is a ridiculous like you're gloating online like how absurd i know that i'd have been like oh okay i think gone off i go into my coffin never again yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
• 49:05
  And I think I knew it was that fragile. And that's why I felt like I had to do it in that way. I think it's absolutely the most impressive thing ever that in six months you've managed to do what you have. And for anyone that doesn't follow your accounts, we'll link them in the show notes. But thank you so much for coming on. I loved this. I almost have Vick's just gone. She's a New Zealander. I almost feel like, you know.
• 49:26
  You kind of weirdly remind me of a British Vic. I don't know if it's like the colouring or what's going on. I'll take that. I think she's so chic. She's so chic. She's so chic. I wish I had her investment knowledge. I wish I had her portfolio. Yeah, yeah. Not jealous, just really would love her. I wouldn't say no to that. Yeah. We also have the same hat if you're listening, Vic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great hat. Both wore it to Wimbledon. Very good look. But no, thank you so much. Loved this conversation. Thank you.
• 49:53
  Thank you so much for listening to Raising the Curve. These conversations are designed to teach you everything you need to know to be better with your money, from saving to investing to talking with your friends about your salaries, all of that stuff. And if you like what you heard, we would love if you could please hit subscribe wherever you're listening and leave a comment, let us know what you thought about the episode. And it only takes one second and it would really make our week, our month, our year. Yeah. Yeah. So please do it. Okay. Love you. Bye.
• 50:20
  Okay, quickly, the curve was created to empower and educate you about investing, but we are not financial advisors. Our platform exists for educational purposes only, and it doesn't provide personalized investing advice for your individual needs and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. And always remember to do your own research before making any investment or financial decision. We're here for any knowledge and support you need, but the final call is always yours. And thanks for being here. You got this. Yeah, we know you got this.