Latest / LifeAudio / The Walk: Real Stories of Faith - Carl and Laura Lentz: What It Took to Put It Back Together

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The Walk: Real Stories of Faith - Carl and Laura Lentz: What It Took to Put It Back Together · LifeAudio

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I love Planning Center. We use them at my home church,
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Destination Church.
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  Speaker 2: worship ministry.
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  Speaker 2: Planning Center, where ministry flows better together.
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: Well, hey, 2 Corinthians 5-7 says we walk by faith
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: and not by sight. That is the Christian life. It's
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: not just talking the talk, but walking the walk. My
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: name is Curtis Parks. I'm your host this season. You
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: probably remember him as the lead pastor of Hillsong, New York.
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: News of his extramarital affair hit headlines everywhere and life
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: changed pretty quick a few years later.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: And together with his.
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  Speaker 3: Wife, Laura, they host the popular podcast Lights On. They
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  Speaker 3: got a brand new book out right now called Overcoming
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  Speaker 3: Infidelity that speaks to redemption, unconditional love, and the journey
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  Speaker 3: they've been on over these last few years.
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  Speaker 1: Today, we are taking a walk with Carl Lentz. Say
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  Speaker 1: what's up, man.
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  Speaker 3: What's up?
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: Curtis, it's a pleasure. That's a great intro, man. Intros
• 1:23
  Speaker 4: have changed over the years, so I'm still getting used
• 1:25
  Speaker 4: to it, but it's a pleasure to be here, brother.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Hey, man, I hope I did you justice in that, man.
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  Speaker 3: I'm so excited for this conversation and I've been praying
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  Speaker 3: through it.
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  Speaker 1: And man, just excited to dive in.
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: So just for our listeners, I mean, you know, obviously Hillsong,
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  Speaker 3: New York, massive growth, really quick.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: Your story.
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: I don't really think we need to hash all of it,
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: but man, maybe just kind of give us the Instagram dude.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Like take us up to speed on where you are today, Carl.
• 1:54
  Speaker 5: Instagram is a great, a great bridge because that's how,
• 1:58
  Speaker 5: I mean, it, it, you, one thing that you see
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  Speaker 5: on Instagram is not necessarily the whole story. And, um, yeah, we,
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  Speaker 5: we had a beautiful church led, led something that was
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  Speaker 5: just powerful and amazing and way bigger than us. And
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  Speaker 5: we loved every second of it. And the guy leading it, me, uh,
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  Speaker 5: I had some serious cracks, uh, everywhere, you know, and
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  Speaker 5: I think as we all do, and yeah, The difference is,
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  Speaker 5: what do we do with those? And there was a
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  Speaker 5: couple deep in my soul that I made a decision
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  Speaker 5: to ignore and to overlook and to allow to fester.
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  Speaker 4: And eventually that leads to extraordinary pain. And that happened.
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  Speaker 4: You know, we lost this beautiful person.
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  Speaker 5: Platform in that chapter that God had given us to
• 2:48
  Speaker 5: entrust just collapsed. And a lot of people were hurt.
• 2:52
  Speaker 5: My family, my wife, my kids, the church that we love,
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  Speaker 5: people that trusted me. And it was painful. And there's
• 3:00
  Speaker 5: nobody to point at, to blame, to look at. I
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  Speaker 5: made choices that.
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  Speaker 4: Hurt people.
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  Speaker 5: And you got to figure out what to do when
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  Speaker 5: you're on the other side of it. You know, when
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  Speaker 5: you let sin do what it does, uncheck The collateral
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  Speaker 5: damage is severe. And God is gracious. And there's nobody
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  Speaker 5: on earth that cannot hand over rubble to God and say,
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  Speaker 5: I got no chance of anything to do with this.
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  Speaker 4: I don't know what to do.
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  Speaker 5: And in that state, I think God can sometimes do
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  Speaker 5: some of the most beautiful work in our lives right now.
• 3:39
  Speaker 5: I think speak to that. You know, consequences don't go
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  Speaker 5: anywhere because you heal. That's part of it. And you
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  Speaker 5: hold that. And Laura and I are still married, still
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  Speaker 5: working it out, still loving each other. Kids are, you know,
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  Speaker 5: healthy and strong and doing what they do. And, you know,
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  Speaker 5: we're here talking about it. So we wrote a book
• 4:01
  Speaker 5: to give some people some hope.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: Wow.
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  Speaker 5: According to the story... that we have walked and it's
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  Speaker 5: not a marriage book per se. It's not 10 ways
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  Speaker 5: to have a great marriage. It's not coming out of
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  Speaker 5: the darkness into the light. It is about conversations you
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  Speaker 5: can have to heal if you've been in a spot
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  Speaker 5: like we've been in, whether it's infidelity or whether it's
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  Speaker 5: something that just rips the bottom out of your life.
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  Speaker 4: And God's there.
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  Speaker 5: And so we wrote a book about it because we
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  Speaker 5: felt like people are hurting now. We're getting help that
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  Speaker 5: can help other people. Very privileged, Curtis, to have great
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  Speaker 5: people help us get the help we needed. And that's
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  Speaker 5: not everybody's story. So that's our heart in this book.
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  Speaker 5: And it wasn't easy to write. It's not like some
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  Speaker 5: profound memoir. It's not pretty. It is the truth about
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  Speaker 5: walking it out. And, you know, we know it's going
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  Speaker 5: to help people. It's for somebody out there listening that's
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  Speaker 5: got some pain and they don't know what to do
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  Speaker 5: with it and maybe need some help.
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  Speaker 4: We try to give that.
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  Speaker 3: Wow. I mean, I know the book is probably raw
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  Speaker 3: because that's kind of how you are. You're authentic, you're raw,
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  Speaker 3: you're real. I think that's what drew so many people
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  Speaker 3: to just coming to your church. And that's why people
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  Speaker 3: love you even today. Talk to me a little bit
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  Speaker 3: about that. I don't know if I would call it
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  Speaker 3: the curse of charisma, but do you think that charisma,
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  Speaker 3: like you have.
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  Speaker 1: Such a magnetic personality, Carl.
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  Speaker 4: Thank you.
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  Speaker 1: And do you think charisma has... like a dark side.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, obviously there's some positives and negatives when you're
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  Speaker 3: in the public eye, but talk to us a little
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  Speaker 3: bit about charisma and how that's been a benefit and
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  Speaker 3: maybe also had some drawbacks for you.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that any gift, I mean, you're gifted.
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  Speaker 5: I mean, everything about what you do is going to
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  Speaker 5: be influenced by your gift.
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  Speaker 4: It just requires responsibility.
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  Speaker 5: So if your gift is this or it's that, for me,
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  Speaker 5: if you're going to say, okay, God gifted me charisma,
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  Speaker 5: which is the ability to in a dynamic way, it
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  Speaker 5: comes with a responsibility. I don't think that the charisma
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  Speaker 5: somebody shows is a part of their gifting. That functions
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  Speaker 5: in sin, out of sin, good, bad. It's the stuff
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  Speaker 5: that the charisma's under that requires extraordinary care.
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  Speaker 4: So I don't even know how to answer that.
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  Speaker 5: That's a great question. No one's ever asked that. I don't, like,
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  Speaker 5: people make, you know, the choices I made with no charisma.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah.
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  Speaker 5: And people with charisma make great choices. So it just
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  Speaker 5: comes down to what do you do with what God's
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  Speaker 5: entrusted you? And there was a chapter in my life where.
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  Speaker 5: I didn't handle it responsibly, just my internal, you know,
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  Speaker 5: my own integrity, my own choices, my own view. And
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  Speaker 5: you lie to God and then you start lying to
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  Speaker 5: yourself and it becomes a natural outflow to have to
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  Speaker 5: manage those lies and lie to other people. And you
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  Speaker 5: can break those patterns, you know, and it takes a
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  Speaker 5: lot of work. It takes a lot of soul searching.
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  Speaker 5: It takes a lot of help.
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  Speaker 4: But that's our story, you know.
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  Speaker 5: But, yeah, I think that people ask sometimes about the
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  Speaker 5: fame or whatever that is. And fame isn't really the
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  Speaker 5: thing that changes anybody. It just is a big spotlight,
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  Speaker 5: exposes who you've always been.
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  Speaker 4: That's it. So it's not like, oh, that guy changed
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  Speaker 4: because he was in the spotlight or he's famous. When
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  Speaker 4: people say that about others, me, I always go, that's
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: always said by somebody who's never had it, Curtis.
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  Speaker 3: Wow.
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  Speaker 4: Always. Because if you've ever had any measure of influence—
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  Speaker 4: It's not like the influence changes you.
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  Speaker 5: It's who you've always been. Now, the pressure definitely impacts you.
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  Speaker 5: All that stuff has a hand in it. But if you're.
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  Speaker 4: Honest with nobody watching, you're going to be honest with
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  Speaker 4: everybody watching. Wow. It's not rocket science.
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  Speaker 5: So sometimes people get, they're curious about my answers because
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  Speaker 5: you can make them glorious.
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  Speaker 4: You can try to make it spectacular. Oh, you know,
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  Speaker 4: just big.
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  Speaker 5: Church epic scandal and all, what would have happened? Same
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  Speaker 5: thing that happens in anybody's life. It just happened to
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  Speaker 5: be on front page and the consequences match the size platform.
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  Speaker 5: So if you want to have influence in the kingdom,
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  Speaker 5: you got to understand it comes at a heavy, heavy price.
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  Speaker 5: It comes with a heavy, heavy responsibility. And if it
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  Speaker 5: goes bad, there's damage.
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  Speaker 4: It's heavy.
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  Speaker 5: So it's not to be taken lightly. I don't think
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  Speaker 5: we took it lightly a day in our life. I
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  Speaker 5: think that you can just lose the plot sometimes, man.
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  Speaker 5: And that's what happened to me. There were some areas
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  Speaker 5: where I just didn't do what I knew I should do.
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  Speaker 5: And on this side of the tracks, I try to
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  Speaker 5: point to awesome guys and say, hey, whatever you do,
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  Speaker 5: handle the stuff you.
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  Speaker 4: Don't want to handle right away. Because it will handle
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  Speaker 4: you eventually.
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  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
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  Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting, you know, it's been several years since that, um,
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  Speaker 3: affair headlines. And, you know, I heard a pastor once
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  Speaker 3: say that you can, it's hard to lead from open wounds.
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  Speaker 3: Like you can lead from scars and it feels like
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  Speaker 3: you're kind of in that scenario. Talk to us a
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  Speaker 3: little bit about that healing journey. And what would you
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  Speaker 3: say to people that are, I mean, some people are
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  Speaker 3: just so eager to get back into leadership, to get
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  Speaker 3: back into ministry, get back in the pulpit, whatever that is.
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  Speaker 3: but there's a healing that can only really come with time.
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  Speaker 3: Speak to that a little bit, Carl, and how are
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  Speaker 3: you kind of on this side of like having scars
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  Speaker 3: to be able to speak from?
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  Speaker 4: Whatever pastor said that was exactly right. I think that.
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  Speaker 5: We're all to a degree, you know, an active work
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  Speaker 5: in progress. I think if you're a leader and you
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  Speaker 5: choose to do ministry, there are some wounds that got
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  Speaker 5: to be scarred up, you know, and when it comes
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  Speaker 5: to marriage stuff, choices in private, You can't be leading
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  Speaker 5: from open wounds. It's a different level. It's not that
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  Speaker 5: the sin is different. In God's eyes, the consequences are
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  Speaker 5: just heavier on humans. So it's a very dangerous thing,
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  Speaker 5: you know, when you've got that kind of open wounds.
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  Speaker 5: And I definitely did a great job of preaching from
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  Speaker 5: my scars and in heaven. you're preaching from your open
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  Speaker 5: wounds and it just isn't, it's not fair. It's not
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  Speaker 5: fair to anybody. So on this side, there are, there
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  Speaker 5: are some lessons. I mean, brother scars always are going
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  Speaker 5: to tell a story. And depending on how you heal,
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  Speaker 5: that's how the story comes out. So you can look
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  Speaker 5: at my life and you could tell one story about
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  Speaker 5: it or you could do.
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  Speaker 4: What I do. It's my life. I get to tell
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  Speaker 4: my stories about my scars and I don't look at
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  Speaker 4: those scars as There was a day I would have
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  Speaker 4: lived in shame about it, but that's not my right.
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  Speaker 4: We can't curate our testimony.
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  Speaker 5: So if I'm going to stand on my testimony that
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  Speaker 5: Jesus is the Redeemer and he's the God that can
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  Speaker 5: lift every head, well, I got to do it now too.
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  Speaker 5: So I'm going to do it now. And I'm okay
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  Speaker 5: with that. I don't love the scar, but I've learned
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  Speaker 5: to embrace it. And I have a scar now that
• 10:51
  Speaker 5: includes cheating on my wife, letting down my kids, violating
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  Speaker 5: every ministerial standard that i held for myself um it's
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  Speaker 5: not about proud or not proud of it it's just
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  Speaker 5: real so i choose now to say god well how
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  Speaker 5: can you use this and right now it's through a
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  Speaker 5: book and we just try to pour all we have
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  Speaker 5: into it and um you know we're grateful i'm grateful
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  Speaker 5: to be talking i'm grateful to.
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  Speaker 4: Be Pointing people to Jesus.
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  Speaker 5: And that's all I can ask in this life is
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  Speaker 5: to get an opportunity where I can to talk about it.
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  Speaker 7: And how God sees fit to roll it out, that's
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  Speaker 7: on Him. Man, that's so cool to hear. I've got
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  Speaker 7: a massive scar on my right arm from when I
• 11:32
  Speaker 7: was a kid. Did something stupid around a, it was
• 11:35
  Speaker 7: like a playground, loose bolt, slit my, I mean, literally
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  Speaker 7: the dumbest thing we could have done. Every time I
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  Speaker 7: look at that, I'm like, man, I'll never do that again.
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  Speaker 7: Is that kind of how you feel right now where
• 11:44
  Speaker 7: it's like, I mean, we can't ever predict the future.
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  Speaker 1: We can't ever say, like, I'll never do X, Y,
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  Speaker 1: and Z again.
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  Speaker 3: But knowing that that's there, what is it that just
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  Speaker 3: is like, hey, man, I'm not even going to touch
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  Speaker 3: that with a 10-foot pole, as they say, you know?
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, I think I would say I look at the
• 12:02
  Speaker 5: things that I've done in regards to that chapter differently.
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  Speaker 5: And I look at them with reverence, not like a
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  Speaker 5: shamey reminder. So I'll never forget what I did to
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  Speaker 5: my wife. I'll never forget the pain that I put
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  Speaker 5: people I love in, ever. And because that's true, it
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  Speaker 5: helps me live brighter, helps me live bolder, helps me
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  Speaker 5: live more healthy. And I think that's– so I don't–
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  Speaker 5: I'm not– it doesn't– when you start to heal and
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  Speaker 5: you make that a pursuit, you're able to look back
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  Speaker 5: at stuff that used to be just painful and extract
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  Speaker 5: a little bit of purpose out of it.
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  Speaker 4: And over time, it becomes all purpose.
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  Speaker 5: So it's like– First couple of years, couldn't even say
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  Speaker 5: the word New York without it just making my whole
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  Speaker 5: heart break and my body convulse and just, it was awful.
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  Speaker 5: And then as God starts to heal you, you start going,
• 12:50
  Speaker 5: you know, take some deep breaths and it's like, man,
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  Speaker 5: there's beauty there too. There's purpose there too. And then eventually...
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  Speaker 5: You're able to stand on all of it and just
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  Speaker 5: say it is what it is. You can say what
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  Speaker 5: you want about it. That's okay.
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  Speaker 4: It's your right.
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  Speaker 5: What really matters is what you say about you. So
• 13:05
  Speaker 5: a million people can have opinions about Curtis. You can
• 13:08
  Speaker 5: handle those as you will, but what's your opinion?
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  Speaker 4: What do you think God's opinion about you is? That's
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  Speaker 4: going to win out all day. Man.
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  Speaker 3: I think the story we tell ourselves is so important
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  Speaker 3: and the narrative that we tell ourselves. When you go
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: through something like this, Carl, what are some of those narratives,
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  Speaker 3: those false narratives, I guess, that continuously kind of creep
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: up and.
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  Speaker 1: How do you deal with that?
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  Speaker 5: Irretrievably broken, embarrassment, shame. I mean, how you deal with
• 13:39
  Speaker 5: it is you freaking deal with them. And you can't
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  Speaker 5: flirt with stories like that. A lot of people have
• 13:45
  Speaker 5: to make that leap. I found when I talked to
• 13:47
  Speaker 5: a lot of guys, they're still flirting with some stories.
• 13:49
  Speaker 5: So they got about three stories they believe about themselves
• 13:51
  Speaker 5: depending on the day.
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  Speaker 4: Wow.
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  Speaker 5: I don't have that option. I got to believe the
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  Speaker 5: one story, which is I'm healing. God's redeeming. And I
• 14:00
  Speaker 5: can do nothing about the past. I can do everything
• 14:03
  Speaker 5: about the right now and where I'm headed. That's where
• 14:06
  Speaker 5: I'm going to put my energy. And that's the story
• 14:07
  Speaker 5: I tell myself. And that has more power than any
• 14:13
  Speaker 5: of the other stories because that's the only one that
• 14:14
  Speaker 5: God's sending. So you're going to get stories sent all
• 14:17
  Speaker 5: day to you, metaphorically. But God's already written your story.
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  Speaker 5: You can choose to look at it all day, every day,
• 14:25
  Speaker 5: feed your soul on it. You'll be just fine. You
• 14:28
  Speaker 5: take your eyes off it for a second.
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: You're in trouble. Mixing stories.
• 14:31
  Speaker 5: I mean, it's like reading a book that has like
• 14:33
  Speaker 5: 97 plots in it. It's like, where are we going
• 14:36
  Speaker 5: with this? Sometimes our life is like that. And I
• 14:41
  Speaker 5: know my story. And some days are easier than others, Curtis,
• 14:45
  Speaker 5: to hang on to it. But over time, you know,
• 14:48
  Speaker 5: I don't have any options. If I believe a different story,
• 14:50
  Speaker 5: my kids lose again. Laura loses again. And that's too
• 14:55
  Speaker 5: much for me. So I'm happy right here building the
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  Speaker 5: story that's the most true.
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  Speaker 4: Some of those other stories are still partly true. They
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: might have some merit to it, but it's not the
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: most true. The most true thing about me is that
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  Speaker 4: I follow Jesus. That means.
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  Speaker 5: Every single day, I got a chance to get better.
• 15:11
  Speaker 5: Every day, I get to grow. And good luck trying
• 15:15
  Speaker 5: to get me off that. You can write.
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: You can say whatever you want. I don't care. I
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: don't even push back on it. It doesn't bother me.
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: I know my story.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: I love I heard you in another interview.
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: I think it might have been with Kerry Newhoff where
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: you talked about this term disgraced that was so often
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: credited to your story. And I just love how you
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: responded to that, Carl, when you when you hear the,
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: you know, the headline disgraced pastor falls. Just remind us again,
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: what was your response to that? Because I thought it
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: was so, so well worded, man.
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, man.
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  Speaker 5: And what's funny is there was a particular website that
• 15:50
  Speaker 5: would always use that. And they must have heard what
• 15:52
  Speaker 5: I said because it wasn't so much it was about me.
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: It's just wrong.
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  Speaker 5: It's just inaccurate. You can't disgrace another person. God is
• 16:01
  Speaker 5: the one that gives grace. We can destroy our reputation,
• 16:06
  Speaker 5: our platform, but grace is a gift from God given
• 16:10
  Speaker 5: without merit. You can't fall from grace. You can fall
• 16:15
  Speaker 5: further into it if you choose to, but if you
• 16:17
  Speaker 5: believe you've fallen out of the grace of God, you
• 16:20
  Speaker 5: just got to, you got to reteach me theologically where
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: you're coming from.
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: Disgraced pastor says, says you, who are you?
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: Who are you?
• 16:29
  Speaker 5: Pick a different, pick a different way to describe it, man.
• 16:33
  Speaker 5: And you can still get there. If you say, I
• 16:35
  Speaker 5: hate you or you're a loser.
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: Okay, cool. That's more accurate. than disgraced. Like you didn't
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: give me God's grace.
• 16:42
  Speaker 5: Therefore, you're not going to tell me or anybody else
• 16:45
  Speaker 5: whether they've disgraced themselves out of anything.
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: Like, what are we doing? So it doesn't mean it
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: minimizes what I did. Yeah, you don't need to.
• 16:53
  Speaker 5: Consequences have a great way of having the final words.
• 16:57
  Speaker 5: Even if you try to minimize something you've done, consequences
• 16:59
  Speaker 5: don't care. They're going to come for you. So I
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: think it's beautiful. If anybody does feel disgraced, Just understand
• 17:08
  Speaker 5: it's a real feeling. It's just not true. So whatever
• 17:11
  Speaker 5: you're thinking that's leading to you, I'm a disgrace. That's
• 17:15
  Speaker 5: a tough one because God doesn't say that about you.
• 17:17
  Speaker 5: God says that you're new. God says that you're redeemed.
• 17:19
  Speaker 5: God actually goes as far as to call you a masterpiece.
• 17:22
  Speaker 5: So you got to take up that issue with him.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Man, that's... This is.
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: As you said that, I'm thinking, Carl, it's so interesting
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: because I feel like there's a whole slew of critics
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: out there that almost wait for stories like your story
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: to happen, and they want people to fall. They're waiting
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: for people to kind of like, oh, there's no way
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: they can be that good. There's no way they can
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: be that gifted. There's no way their church can grow
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: that fast without something being... And what is it about that? Like,
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: speak to the cynicism, speak to the skepticism that just
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: exists out there. I think it goes hand in hand
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: with just this. We're so easily offended. We you know,
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: there's just something about American Christian culture that just waits
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: for somebody to fall.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: What is that? And what would you say to.
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: It, man?
• 18:09
  Speaker 5: I would speak to two sides of it. One, they're
• 18:12
  Speaker 5: not wrong a lot. That's the problem.
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: Wow.
• 18:17
  Speaker 5: But just because that's true doesn't mean it's always true.
• 18:20
  Speaker 5: So I remember feeling that, you know, when things were great.
• 18:23
  Speaker 5: It's like you know there are some people who just–
• 18:25
  Speaker 5: because it makes it easier. It's easier to think somebody's
• 18:28
  Speaker 5: wrong than it is to believe the best. That's why
• 18:31
  Speaker 5: people love to do it. Because to believe the best
• 18:33
  Speaker 5: takes work. It takes soul work. It takes reflection. And,
• 18:37
  Speaker 5: you know, we all know this. People who are critical,
• 18:39
  Speaker 5: they don't love themselves. They got issues. You know, often
• 18:42
  Speaker 5: our response to things is more about us than it
• 18:45
  Speaker 5: is the thing. And so I think both things are true.
• 18:48
  Speaker 5: Sometimes the skepticism is earned. So on this side of
• 18:51
  Speaker 5: the tracks, yeah, there's going to be skepticism.
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: Okay, cool. Like it doesn't impact me. I'm going to
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: live my life. You have every right to ponder and
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: to not believe. And cool. That's not on you. That's
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: on me. I gave you fuel for that.
• 19:04
  Speaker 5: But in general, I just want to live the other way.
• 19:07
  Speaker 5: I'm going to believe the best. I want to pray
• 19:09
  Speaker 5: for people I don't get. I want to pray for
• 19:12
  Speaker 5: them when they fall. I don't need to be like, see, look,
• 19:15
  Speaker 5: I don't need those clicks. I don't need those views.
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: Let me do a video about how bad this guy is.
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: Okay, cool, man. I hope that just builds you up.
• 19:24
  Speaker 5: We tell ourselves all these stories about why it's noble.
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: It's not noble.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: It's easy.
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: And so I think that it's just a condition of
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: our culture.
• 19:32
  Speaker 5: We got a lot of people who are not doing
• 19:36
  Speaker 5: the right thing. Got a lot of people that are.
• 19:38
  Speaker 5: And there's fodder to be had. What do you want
• 19:41
  Speaker 5: to do with it? And some people choose to sit right.
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: In the negative and, okay, I got no I got
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: no judgment on it and do what you got to do.
• 19:47
  Speaker 5: I just know for me and my house, life's too short, man.
• 19:51
  Speaker 5: It's like, I don't, I don't see a scandal and just.
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: Immediately, you know, get online. Like I'm not the negative guy.
• 19:58
  Speaker 5: I've never left like a critical, like if you had
• 20:00
  Speaker 5: a podcast I didn't like, I can't fathom going.
• 20:02
  Speaker 6: Curtis, you're off, man. I don't know what, I don't
• 20:07
  Speaker 6: know what that does. Like, and some people just love
• 20:09
  Speaker 6: that stuff. They love the comments and okay. I've talked
• 20:12
  Speaker 6: to my kids about it. I don't understand that generation.
• 20:14
  Speaker 6: They just look at a photo comments, look at a
• 20:17
  Speaker 6: photo comments.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, I got to judge. I got to judge.
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: Maybe I'm old. It's just not like, I don't care.
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: Like why? Let me go see what strangers say. It's like, okay. Um,
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: but that's just a, that's a choice, the preference. Wow.
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: I love that outlook because, uh, it's kind of like
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: how you spend your money, right? I mean, we spend money.
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: I heard a pastor once say, we spend money that
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: we don't have to impress people that we don't know
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: for things that we don't need. It's like, we waste
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: so much of our time, energy, all of this stuff
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: on opinions that at the end of the day don't
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: really matter.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: So, so let's talk for a second right now.
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: I love that you said, you know, the story you
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: tell yourself matters, your opinion, obviously your heavenly fathers, those
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: that are closest to you. Um, Where are all those
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: opinions at right now just for you, like from Laura,
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: from the kids, from those who are closest to.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: You, Carl? Where are they at?
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: Gracious, I think. Hopeful. Challenging. But that's life. You know,
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: you've got to find people that believe in you and
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: see the best in you. And it's not always going
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: to happen. So you can't control that. You can't control
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: where you place yourself. Right.
• 21:25
  Speaker 5: It's like, if you feel like everybody hates you, you
• 21:28
  Speaker 5: might want to move, like move locations because not everybody
• 21:32
  Speaker 5: hates you. You can go find two or three people
• 21:33
  Speaker 5: that don't. And it just depends on, there's a lot
• 21:36
  Speaker 5: of victim in there too. It's like everybody's, it's like everybody, like, no,
• 21:41
  Speaker 5: it's not everybody. And so I, there's always, you cannot
• 21:45
  Speaker 5: make a difference in this life and not have opinions
• 21:49
  Speaker 5: about you. You got to make that choice up front.
• 21:51
  Speaker 5: And so even doing this book, you know, we'd have
• 21:55
  Speaker 5: to do it. My wife gets the credit. She doesn't
• 21:57
  Speaker 5: have to do any of this. We're passionate about it.
• 22:00
  Speaker 5: And we know what comes with that. You know, I
• 22:02
  Speaker 5: had to regather my kids and let them know, hey,
• 22:05
  Speaker 5: we're going to do this. We know what's going to come.
• 22:07
  Speaker 5: Is everybody cool with that? And we're pretty secure around here, brother.
• 22:11
  Speaker 6: Really are.
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: Wow.
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: Let's talk about judgment for a little bit, because I
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: think a lot of people hit a crisis and just
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: kind of fade into obscurity.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: I mean, you just hit it, right?
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: Like they're like, hey, it's like that Homer Simpson meme
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: where he just kind of like goes back into the bushes.
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: A lot of people will hit a crisis and they
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: just kind of fade into obscurity. You're not afraid of
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: the spotlight. And I know that comes with a lot
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: of judgment and a lot of criticism, like you just said.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: How do you deal with the judgment?
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: Because it's like, Even doing something like this, where it's like,
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: you're doing a lot of podcasts, you're telling your story.
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: The book is going to help a lot of people.
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: And you guys are putting your story out there every
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: single day. You're retelling it and retelling it, which just
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: opens up to another battle every single time you tell it. Man,
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: how do you deal with the judgment and the negativity
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: and not become a cynic yourself?
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't. I don't deal with it. I'm not
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: in that courtroom, brother. So- I don't answer to those things.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: I can't control it. So it's like, I mean, I'm
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: so mad at people judging me.
• 23:17
  Speaker 6: Why?
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: Like, you're not my boss. You're not my God. I
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: don't even know you. So why on earth? It doesn't
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: mean we're not human. Nobody likes to be judged. That's true, too.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: But and.
• 23:31
  Speaker 5: Like, what are we going to do with this? Like,
• 23:32
  Speaker 5: so I don't, it's not that I don't care in
• 23:35
  Speaker 5: a callous way. I definitely care about what people think.
• 23:38
  Speaker 5: Anybody who says otherwise, I don't trust them. It's how
• 23:41
  Speaker 5: I care.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 23:42
  Speaker 5: I care about what Curtis thinks. And there's a gate here.
• 23:47
  Speaker 5: I've got to do a good job of guarding that gate.
• 23:49
  Speaker 5: And so what's true? What's not true? What can be true?
• 23:52
  Speaker 5: What can I learn?
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: And then you keep it moving. But I just, anytime
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: people feel judged, I say, man, you gave that person
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: a lot of power. Like, they judged me. You're not
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: a judge. You can't judge.
• 24:03
  Speaker 5: So that's not even a false, that's not even a
• 24:05
  Speaker 5: true statement.
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: You're a person with an opinion and you've made your
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: decision about me. Okay. No pushback. I'm not going to
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: defend myself or attack you. You don't have the power
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: to get me to attack you. I'm not scared. Like
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: any sort of defense means I'm threatened. It's like, yeah, nah,
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: I don't subscribe to it, man. We've been through the
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: real fire. been through real fights. So we can handle it.
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: And there are times where you go, do I want
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: to handle it? That's the choice. Like, do I want
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: to handle it with grace? Am I healthy enough to
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: handle it with grace? And you got to weigh that up.
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: That's really good, man.
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: It's interesting because anytime you put something out, whether it's music,
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: whether it's a book, and you get those negative reviews,
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: you get those critics, I always just want to go
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: on there and just be like, hey, thanks for paying
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: the 15 bucks for the book.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: At the end of the day, you put a gas
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: tank in my car.
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: Thanks for the algorithm bump.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: It works both ways there, champ.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: I love that, man. I love that, dude. It's so true.
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: If you never want to be criticized, just don't do anything.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: But the moment you do something, especially something that is
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: going to impact, you're going to attract... every kind of,
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: you know, criticism, every kind of thing. There's another side
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: of it though, Carl, that I wanted to ask you about.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: Five seconds of talking to you, man, you can tell
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: you're an optimist. You can tell, you know, you just
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: live with a hope and a joy. And it's like,
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: what am I going to do about tomorrow? All I
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: can do is about today and future. How do you
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: not sink into victim mindset? Like, like, woe is me.
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: All this has come in my way. I did this
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: to myself. I'm such a failure. How do you not
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: sink into that pit?
• 25:47
  Speaker 5: Well, it's just a terrible place to be. Like the
• 25:50
  Speaker 5: moment you go there, A, you're forgetting your role in
• 25:54
  Speaker 5: the story.
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: So if I were ever to be like.
• 25:56
  Speaker 5: I can't believe all these people have opinions about me,
• 25:59
  Speaker 5: I would be forgetting the fuel I gave it. So
• 26:02
  Speaker 5: what's my role in the story was this is true.
• 26:05
  Speaker 5: Some of these things are true. It doesn't mean the
• 26:07
  Speaker 5: people holding them are healthy, but it's true. And then
• 26:10
  Speaker 5: I go, well, what am I building? So the moment
• 26:14
  Speaker 5: you go victim, you're no longer building. You're just receiving
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: and you're getting you're under the thumb of someone. If
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: you're owning your building, I wish I could stay under
• 26:24
  Speaker 5: your opinion, but I'm too busy building a life.
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: It's either or.
• 26:28
  Speaker 5: So anybody who's sitting in that victim seat, you're allowed
• 26:32
  Speaker 5: to do that. You're also allowed to switch positions and
• 26:35
  Speaker 5: go into, okay, let me build. Let me build a life.
• 26:39
  Speaker 5: And then you get busy building.
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: And then you just slowly drift from a life where
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: you're sitting there waiting for people to talk about you.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: As you're building over these last few years, what's been
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: a moment that just kind of stands out as like,
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: one of the most joyous parts of these last, I mean,
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: there's trials and tribulations, but there's joys.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: I know that.
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: What's one of the biggest just joys slash victories of
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: these last few years, Carl?
• 27:05
  Speaker 5: I mean, there's so many. I mean, it always goes
• 27:06
  Speaker 5: back to my family. I think there are moments where
• 27:09
  Speaker 5: I'm just, I'm a lot more present these days. And
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: the victory is in being able to even experience moments
• 27:17
  Speaker 5: without worrying about what's next or fearing about, you know,
• 27:19
  Speaker 5: or being, you know, sad about what happened. And they're
• 27:23
  Speaker 5: just little moments that I would probably put all into
• 27:26
  Speaker 5: one and just say, seeing my family grow through this
• 27:30
  Speaker 5: has been enough.
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: If nothing else.
• 27:33
  Speaker 5: Ever happened, just that's the biggest win, is to be
• 27:37
  Speaker 5: able to say, you know, we're going to build a family.
• 27:39
  Speaker 5: We're imperfectly healthy. And that's what has got me through
• 27:44
  Speaker 5: a lot of dark days. It'll be what gets me
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: through hard days in the future. And everybody can pick
• 27:50
  Speaker 5: something like that.
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: Like what's one thing that you're grateful for that is
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: not circumstantial? There's power to it. Like I'm so grateful
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: that I know Jesus.
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: I'm so grateful that I get a chance to build
• 28:02
  Speaker 5: my marriage every day. I'm so grateful that I get
• 28:03
  Speaker 5: to talk to my kids. I'm so grateful that I
• 28:05
  Speaker 5: get to breathe. I'm grateful that I'm healthy. I'm grateful
• 28:08
  Speaker 5: that the future is not written. I'm grateful that nobody
• 28:10
  Speaker 5: owns the pen to my story but me. I mean,
• 28:12
  Speaker 5: once you get going, it's.
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: What was I worried about?
• 28:15
  Speaker 5: What am I upset about? What was the article about?
• 28:19
  Speaker 5: And that's something that you have in you right now.
• 28:22
  Speaker 5: Every single person has that same superpower. I mean, the
• 28:25
  Speaker 5: Bible is clear that the password to God's presence is thanks.
• 28:30
  Speaker 5: So if you ever feel like you're getting surrounded by
• 28:32
  Speaker 5: other things, you might just got to stop, got to breathe.
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: You know what? I'm grateful for the fact.
• 28:37
  Speaker 5: That just that pause alone can sometimes push you out
• 28:40
  Speaker 5: of a really bad spiral. Some days are just a
• 28:44
  Speaker 5: lot harder than others, but the truth remains.
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: Good days are bad.
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: What are some of the daily disciplines that you have
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: in your life that keep that spirit alive in you, Carl?
• 28:57
  Speaker 5: Dude, I mean, I have curated my day to make
• 29:00
  Speaker 5: sure that's not accidental.
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: It's habitual.
• 29:04
  Speaker 5: So I start my morning with it. fill my day
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: with it end my day with it and that has
• 29:10
  Speaker 5: that's something you can everybody can build and everyone has
• 29:13
  Speaker 5: different systems and patterns and mine's different too but overall
• 29:17
  Speaker 5: I just don't leave that for chance anymore yeah like
• 29:20
  Speaker 5: I'm gonna go get grateful oh I'm going to get
• 29:23
  Speaker 5: grateful because it's in my schedule wow there's a two
• 29:26
  Speaker 5: minute break right there at 12 30 to be grateful
• 29:30
  Speaker 5: wow that And whatever you do habitually, it's who you become.
• 29:35
  Speaker 5: So yeah, we become more and more of that which
• 29:37
  Speaker 5: we feed and curate, and that's much the life.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: With that.
• 29:40
  Speaker 5: It's just I don't want to leave the chance. I'm
• 29:43
  Speaker 5: not good enough for that. I got to make sure
• 29:44
  Speaker 5: I habitually love my wife habitually. Check on my kids habitually.
• 29:50
  Speaker 5: Check in with Jesus, make sure that my eyes are
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: clear and my.
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: Heart is full.
• 29:54
  Speaker 5: And that's the joy of being a Christian. You know,
• 29:57
  Speaker 5: you can't happen. You can't control what's happening to you
• 29:59
  Speaker 5: all the time. But my gosh, what's coming through you,
• 30:02
  Speaker 5: that is on you.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: I do want to lean into this book, Overcoming Infidelity.
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: You know, it's fresh out right now. and I'm sure
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: you guys are already getting stories pouring in. Tell me
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: about the process of writing a book with your wife
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: about such a monumental thing that has plagued so many
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: people in and out of the church, so many stories,
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: and you guys are just putting the spotlight right on
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: it and just saying, hey, here's what Jesus did in
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: our life.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: What's that process like writing that out with your wife?
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: Beautifully painful, brutal.
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: Awesome.
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: Horrific.
• 30:39
  Speaker 5: I mean, that's why doing this book is like, it's
• 30:44
  Speaker 5: a heroic thing for Laura because you don't have to
• 30:48
  Speaker 5: go back into some of that stuff. You know, you
• 30:51
  Speaker 5: land the plane on it, but to go back in,
• 30:53
  Speaker 5: it means you have a lot of power over it.
• 30:55
  Speaker 5: And so for me, it was, it's just, it's not cool, Curtis,
• 31:00
  Speaker 5: to just talk about your worst all the freaking time.
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: And it's needed. So I got to get familiar with it.
• 31:09
  Speaker 5: And writing it was just, you know, we all made
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: our own personal little dedications, Lori and I. And one
• 31:13
  Speaker 5: of mine was, I'm not going to just run from
• 31:17
  Speaker 5: this ever. So let's write a book. This stuff happened.
• 31:21
  Speaker 5: I did these things. And here's what God did through it. But, yeah,
• 31:26
  Speaker 5: going back into it, very painful. And that's part of
• 31:29
  Speaker 5: the journey, though.
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: Got to own it. And in that, there's some beauty.
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: But it wasn't easy at all.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: Practically, how does that work when you're writing together with somebody?
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: I mean, are you guys like in a room together? Like, Hey, no,
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: you can't write that. Or Hey, you know, what does
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: that look like, man?
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: No way, man. I'm a writer by trade. I'm a thinker.
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: Laura is a floaty Aussie chick. Like we would never
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: be able to write together. So we did that on
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: our own time.
• 31:54
  Speaker 5: And, uh, we worked with an amazing, uh, guy, Brent, who, uh,
• 31:59
  Speaker 5: helped us kind of amalgamate these things. And I, in, in,
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: It was a cool process, you know, and she'd be
• 32:05
  Speaker 5: working on hers and I'd be working on mine. And
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: we kind of tell what the other person was writing about,
• 32:11
  Speaker 5: depending on their demeanor of the day. It's like there
• 32:13
  Speaker 5: are some days I'd be like, oh, you mad on
• 32:17
  Speaker 5: site today? Like, what did you have to write about?
• 32:20
  Speaker 5: And so, yeah, it's cool.
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: Cool, cool memories.
• 32:23
  Speaker 5: We worked really hard at doing it intentionally. So it
• 32:26
  Speaker 5: wouldn't have to take eight years. It's like, if we're
• 32:29
  Speaker 5: going to do this, It's going to be an emotional haul.
• 32:32
  Speaker 5: So let's lock it in. And it took a while.
• 32:36
  Speaker 5: The audio book is awesome because Laura's Australian. That was
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: 10 times harder than writing it. It was reading it again.
• 32:45
  Speaker 6: Wow.
• 32:46
  Speaker 5: So it took me much longer than Laura. Laura was
• 32:49
  Speaker 5: in there, knocked hers out in probably two days. Man,
• 32:50
  Speaker 5: I was probably in there for what felt like nine
• 32:52
  Speaker 5: years because I'd start something.
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: I'm like, I need a break. but got through it.
• 32:57
  Speaker 5: And yeah, we know it's going to be, you know,
• 33:01
  Speaker 5: a piece of hope, maybe in a dry season for somebody.
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: And that's plenty.
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: When you're looking at the table of contents, you're going
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: down these chapters. What's the chapter that's like, man, that
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: was the hardest to write, but I think it may
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: bear the most fruit.
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: Probably the kids one, because that's the most insidious part
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: about a man that breaks his marriage vows. Forget about
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: the damage.
• 33:27
  Speaker 5: I mean, don't forget the damage done to the bride
• 33:30
  Speaker 5: of your life.
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: Unspeakable.
• 33:34
  Speaker 5: But the ripple effect of what it can do to
• 33:37
  Speaker 5: your kids and then their kids. is the most beautiful
• 33:41
  Speaker 5: part of what God can redeem. So we have a
• 33:45
  Speaker 5: chapter in there about how do you tell your kids,
• 33:47
  Speaker 5: and just from our view, and in a short answer,
• 33:51
  Speaker 5: if you're going to pick up the book, you're going
• 33:53
  Speaker 5: to find out it's a conversation that leads to a
• 33:56
  Speaker 5: thousand other ones.
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: You still have.
• 33:59
  Speaker 5: I had talked to both my daughters last couple of
• 34:02
  Speaker 5: days on stuff that's fresh to them because it's all
• 34:04
  Speaker 5: being brought up and they got different questions now. And
• 34:08
  Speaker 5: and you got to embrace that as the as the
• 34:10
  Speaker 5: guy who started the party. You can't leave when the
• 34:13
  Speaker 5: songs get a little bit uncomfortable. You got to dance
• 34:15
  Speaker 5: through it all. And so that one was tough, man.
• 34:18
  Speaker 5: They're all equally hard, that one in particular, because your
• 34:22
  Speaker 5: kids are just the best part.
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: Of your life, you know?
• 34:24
  Speaker 5: And the damage done on them without the grace of
• 34:28
  Speaker 5: God is forever. And because of God's grace, it's going
• 34:32
  Speaker 5: to continue to be something that's made them even stronger.
• 34:35
  Speaker 5: They didn't need it. They didn't ask for it. They
• 34:37
  Speaker 5: didn't deserve it. And God's gracious. And so that's kind
• 34:42
  Speaker 5: of my hope for guys who have been in my shoes.
• 34:45
  Speaker 5: Do what you can to give it to God so
• 34:47
  Speaker 5: he can redeem it because they don't deserve that. So
• 34:50
  Speaker 5: I know you feel shame and I know you're embarrassed.
• 34:52
  Speaker 5: You have to get over yourself because they deserve the
• 34:55
  Speaker 5: most healthy you. They deserve the tools. They deserve honesty.
• 34:59
  Speaker 5: It's the least we can do. And I feel like
• 35:01
  Speaker 5: the book speaks to that.
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: Wow. Couples every weekend in churches this Sunday. going through
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: the very same thing. But it's interesting, a lot of
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: times it's kind of left in secret. Their story is secret.
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: They're holding it close to their own home, not brought
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: out into the open. What are the benefits, I guess,
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: or the drawbacks of having a very public infidelity? And
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: that's a weird question to ask, but what's the benefit?
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: What's the drawback of it, if I could even ask that?
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's horrible to go through if nobody knows.
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: It's extra horrible for everybody knows. So it's like, there's
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: no cool answer for that.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: It's horrible.
• 35:45
  Speaker 5: Um, and the same remedy is for private or public life.
• 35:50
  Speaker 5: Like it's going to be the same thing that gives
• 35:52
  Speaker 5: you hope in there. So if you're on a world scale,
• 35:55
  Speaker 5: like we, we, we, we were on and, and to
• 35:58
  Speaker 5: some degree we're walking back into, um, It's just a
• 36:03
  Speaker 5: good check for how healthy you are.
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: What are you up for?
• 36:08
  Speaker 5: Any hiding, whether we hide it as public figures, which
• 36:11
  Speaker 5: is the worst, the dumbest term ever, or you hide
• 36:14
  Speaker 5: it as anonymous people.
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: Which is also a dumb term. Everybody matters.
• 36:19
  Speaker 5: And I think that sometimes our lives look different, but
• 36:22
  Speaker 5: you just, that's what got you there. Hiding is what
• 36:25
  Speaker 5: got you there. There's no way hiding is going to
• 36:27
  Speaker 5: be how you can get out of there. So you
• 36:31
  Speaker 5: got to take that leap to go, we're going to
• 36:32
  Speaker 5: do everything radically different. And you know, how long have
• 36:35
  Speaker 5: you been married, Curtis?
• 36:37
  Speaker 6: 21 years.
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: Well done.
• 36:39
  Speaker 5: And when you look back on things that have been
• 36:41
  Speaker 5: good and bad, you could probably trace back any contention.
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: Somebody just wasn't getting honest quickly.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: That's all.
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: It's not rocket science. Like marriage is beautiful. It's not hard.
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: We make it hard. We can make it difficult. But honesty,
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: it's not that it's hard. It's that it just is uncomfortable.
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: So you can embrace that.
• 37:01
  Speaker 5: And marriage always is going to have its beautiful challenges,
• 37:04
  Speaker 5: but like being difficult, it's like when you find out
• 37:06
  Speaker 5: that people have the most difficult marriages, it's actually not somebody,
• 37:11
  Speaker 5: somebody is not being honest about something. It's not something
• 37:14
  Speaker 5: horrible or whatever, but somebody is not sharing a thought,
• 37:17
  Speaker 5: a feeling, emotion. And then those things stack up and
• 37:20
  Speaker 5: now you got distance. So it's not like rocket science.
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: Man.
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: What would you say to somebody who's listening, um, maybe
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: a couple that's hiding in the shadows, trying to do
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: this on their own.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: What's that first step in getting out of the shadows?
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: I mean, I would say good luck, y'all. Whoever that
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: couple is, you'll be the first couple in history to ever,
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: ever make it through this kind of betrayal and pain
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: healthy by yourself.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: That's what I'd say. And you proved me wrong.
• 37:53
  Speaker 5: If you're a couple that went through destructive experiences, Things
• 37:57
  Speaker 5: like this, infidelity, and you got no help and no
• 38:00
  Speaker 5: therapy and just you did it on your own back.
• 38:03
  Speaker 5: Let me know so I can celebrate you. For everybody else,
• 38:07
  Speaker 5: you're just going to need to find somebody safe to
• 38:10
  Speaker 5: help you through it because it's, I think God designed
• 38:14
  Speaker 5: marriage to be the kind of thing where it needs
• 38:16
  Speaker 5: to get support. It just does. Ultimately, y'all got to
• 38:19
  Speaker 5: make your calls. But what would it be like if
• 38:21
  Speaker 5: you had a little bit more support? Like, what if
• 38:23
  Speaker 5: it wasn't all on your shoulders? That's why church is beautiful.
• 38:26
  Speaker 5: That's why friendships are so essential. And I would just
• 38:30
  Speaker 5: tell a couple like that, you're worth support. You deserve support.
• 38:35
  Speaker 5: You're not superhuman. And things in this life, you know,
• 38:40
  Speaker 5: they require somebody once in a while to lift your
• 38:42
  Speaker 5: head and make your burden lighter.
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: And feel free to experience that. That's what I would say.
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: Wow. I know you and Laura have both gone through counseling.
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: What does the support system right now in your life
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: look like, Carl?
• 38:56
  Speaker 5: Man, I mean, it's dialed. I think everybody's different in that.
• 39:00
  Speaker 5: I think that I've got beautiful friends. I've got an
• 39:04
  Speaker 5: amazing pastor. I've got a therapist that I've got six
• 39:08
  Speaker 5: years of equity with now. We go to things that
• 39:12
  Speaker 5: make us healthy periodically. And we do healthy habits. So
• 39:19
  Speaker 5: it's a beautiful, we're just, I just learned a lot, man,
• 39:23
  Speaker 5: in that last chapter that I will not repeat. And
• 39:25
  Speaker 5: one of those things is just being a guy who
• 39:27
  Speaker 5: does so much on his own here.
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 39:30
  Speaker 5: To my benefit in some ways. And then in some
• 39:32
  Speaker 5: very destructive ways, it really hurt me. And what are
• 39:36
  Speaker 5: you going to do with lessons like that?
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: You're going to repeat them? No way. How I got
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: in that kind of horrific cycle was on my own.
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 39:44
  Speaker 5: So how I'm staying out of that kind of cycle
• 39:46
  Speaker 5: is not being on my own. And every man has
• 39:49
  Speaker 5: to decide whether they're going to live in the open
• 39:52
  Speaker 5: with the lights on or not. And it's a good
• 39:54
  Speaker 5: choice to make.
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: Wow. I have a men's group and we meet every Saturday.
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: We text each other throughout the week. Mostly it's just
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: funny jokes and reels and stuff like that. But I mean,
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: we're challenging each other too. We hopefully are inspiring each
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: other to live closer lives to Jesus. Talk to us
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: a little bit about, I don't like dubbing it this,
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: but like accountability culture, right? So I think, you know,
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: I remember back in college, it was like, man, we
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: have accountability buddies and all this cheesy stuff, you know,
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: but it's like, I think accountability is something that the
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: church talks a lot about, but doesn't really know how
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: to pull off that well without it being weird, without
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: it being invasive, without it being natural. Like, what are
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: your thoughts on how we approach as a church, just
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: accountability and being there for brothers, being there for marriages
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: in a better way?
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's great. I think the idea itself, no problem
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: with it.
• 40:47
  Speaker 5: I've told a couple people, accountability is not the goal.
• 40:52
  Speaker 5: Honesty is the goal. Accountability is what helps you maintain honesty.
• 40:56
  Speaker 5: So there's a lot of people who are like, are
• 40:57
  Speaker 5: you accountable, brother?
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: I don't know. Are you? It doesn't matter if I'm
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: not honest. So Curtis, sometimes people will be like, a
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: guy like Carl, he had yes men around him, had
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: no accountability. It's not true. You know how to lie too.
• 41:14
  Speaker 5: If you're my accountability, Curtis, and you say, Carl, how
• 41:17
  Speaker 5: are you doing? And I say, I'm good, brother. I'm good. Curtis,
• 41:22
  Speaker 5: did you look at porn this week?
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: Nope, sure didn't. You have any negative thoughts? No, I
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: had a couple. Cool. Check the box. Okay. Are you honest?
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: So the power.
• 41:34
  Speaker 5: Of a man is his relationship with God in private
• 41:37
  Speaker 5: with himself.
• 41:38
  Speaker 6: Wow.
• 41:39
  Speaker 5: And then accountability is awesome because you're bringing in fruit
• 41:42
  Speaker 5: to your guys going, this is the man I am.
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: This is the man I want to be. Hold me
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: to it. Here's some things to know. But like the
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: notion that accountability is going to be the thing that
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: keeps you, you know, where you need to be with Jesus.
• 41:53
  Speaker 5: I don't buy that. I've never seen that. And I
• 41:56
  Speaker 5: know exactly what you're speaking to. Sometimes that's the thing.
• 41:58
  Speaker 5: Like if you're an accountability group, you're going to make it.
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: That's not true. It's not true. You can go to
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: the doctor sick as a dog and be like, it's
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: my foot. Well, it's your heart. The doctor doesn't know
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: because you're just like, no, it's my foot. It's my
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: big toe. You know, I went to the doctor. It's
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: just not.
• 42:14
  Speaker 5: So there's a lot of self-delusion, temptation as men. And
• 42:19
  Speaker 5: I think that's what we got to fight.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: Man, you said honesty. And honestly, like... I say honestly.
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: It's so interesting because honesty really is the root of everything,
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: it seems like. If you're telling lies, if you're believing lies,
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: if you're living lies, but it all comes back to
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: how honest we are with ourself, how honest we are
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: with God and with others. In the church culture, we
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: say this a lot, you know, you put on your
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: church face or your Sunday, you look good.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: And it happens every weekend, Carl, where you're like, how
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: are you guys doing? I'm doing good.
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: And we see them next week, right? How can churches
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: be a better place to foster that? those honest conversations.
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: And I ask that knowing that so many times churches,
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: we get together for 60 to 90 minutes, you know,
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: obviously there's conversations in the lobby, there's prayer afterwards, there's
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: people that go out to eat afterwards and whatnot. We want,
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: we want to see community happen in the in-betweens, but
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: how can churches become better zones for honesty to just
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: naturally happen in conversations?
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: Good question.
• 43:21
  Speaker 5: I think that church gets the wrong end of that
• 43:23
  Speaker 5: criticism a lot because what you, I mean, I'm a
• 43:26
  Speaker 5: clarity guy, so I can pick somebody apart quickly when
• 43:29
  Speaker 5: they have the wrong spirit with that. What do you
• 43:31
  Speaker 5: want your church to do exactly? Like, well, we should
• 43:35
  Speaker 5: have 30 minutes in the service to tell each other,
• 43:36
  Speaker 5: tell each other what?
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: What do you think? Are me and Laura going to
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: come in on a Sunday and like meet strangers and
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: just share our hearts? It's not real. It's stupid. It's
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: not even safe.
• 43:46
  Speaker 5: I think it's on the Christian to develop a life
• 43:49
  Speaker 5: that has honest confession involved in it. And yeah, as churches, sure,
• 43:54
  Speaker 5: we can create some ways to do that corporately maybe,
• 43:57
  Speaker 5: but I mean, that's not the reason why there's dishonesty.
• 44:01
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 44:01
  Speaker 5: So if you're a church leader, yeah, you can look
• 44:05
  Speaker 5: at ways to how do we cultivate this part of
• 44:07
  Speaker 5: who we are?
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: How can we make it practical? That's beautiful.
• 44:10
  Speaker 5: But I just think as a whole, like if you
• 44:12
  Speaker 5: have this stuff going well in private, churches are easy
• 44:16
  Speaker 5: to attend.
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 44:17
  Speaker 5: It's because you're not going there for it to be
• 44:19
  Speaker 5: the beginning and the end of everything. You know, it's
• 44:21
  Speaker 5: a natural outflow. So I feel like churches can probably
• 44:24
  Speaker 5: from the pulpit continue to preach to the power of
• 44:27
  Speaker 5: honesty and And, you know, paint the right pictures. But
• 44:30
  Speaker 5: that's age old. That's always going to be something churches
• 44:33
  Speaker 5: have to grow in. And I've been on both sides
• 44:36
  Speaker 5: of that podium. So I know what it's like. I
• 44:38
  Speaker 5: know what you're trying to do a lot. You're trying
• 44:40
  Speaker 5: to cultivate a lot of aspects of culture. And honesty
• 44:43
  Speaker 5: is something that is, it's a two-way street, you know. Yes,
• 44:47
  Speaker 5: churches can do a better job in ways maybe of creating,
• 44:50
  Speaker 5: you know, avenues. But it's always about the person, you know.
• 44:53
  Speaker 5: What are you and your wife doing? What are you
• 44:55
  Speaker 5: doing in your private life? What are you pursuing? The
• 44:58
  Speaker 5: church isn't like, you know, this big target where they're
• 45:01
  Speaker 5: supposed to provide everything in your life. It's like, no,
• 45:04
  Speaker 5: it's not the point of this. So there's nuance to it. Curtis,
• 45:07
  Speaker 5: and that's not a word Christians love often.
• 45:10
  Speaker 4: Nuance. What does this mean? I have to work something
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: out myself?
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: Wow. Wow. Yeah, it puts the onus on us, right?
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: I don't like that. I don't want to take responsibility.
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: No, no.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: Talk to me. Talk to me about faith. OK, so,
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's amazing.
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: One of the best preachers of the gospel and clearly like,
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: you know, during your time at Hillsong New York, so
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: many people were finding Jesus through how he used you
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: to preach the gospel.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: Going through something like this.
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: How has the faith in your marriage, you know, Christ
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: as the anchor, what does that look like? And how
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: has going through this been like the only way that
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: you guys could find certain, I don't know if I'd say,
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: you know, perspectives of Jesus, but certain characteristics of his heart, man.
• 45:57
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 45:57
  Speaker 5: I mean, you can say, I think that, I mean,
• 46:04
  Speaker 5: if you build, if you build a marriage on Jesus,
• 46:07
  Speaker 5: maybe you can look at, Laura and I, in this way,
• 46:10
  Speaker 5: you can say, well, when things get hard, apparently Jesus
• 46:16
  Speaker 5: is enough. Because we're a testament to that. There's no
• 46:20
  Speaker 5: way we should be married, man. There's no way. It's
• 46:24
  Speaker 5: not possible to overcome it.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: You can't.
• 46:27
  Speaker 5: It's not even safe to overcome it sometimes when you've
• 46:29
  Speaker 5: broken trust like I did. And, you know, Jesus is
• 46:35
  Speaker 5: the foundation of what we built this marriage on.
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: And that's immovable. So we'd have to excavate that foundation
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: to get out of that.
• 46:44
  Speaker 5: And it's really gotten us through. Both of us have
• 46:47
  Speaker 5: definitely shifted certain ways of how we walk.
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: With Jesus through this. You know, for me, it's a
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: different pace.
• 46:53
  Speaker 5: For Laura, I think it's a different view because we
• 46:57
  Speaker 5: have different roads.
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: You know, when you're the one that has to handle
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: the consequence, when you're the one that brought it, these
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: are two different roads of healing.
• 47:03
  Speaker 5: So for me, it's the pace of that I walked
• 47:05
  Speaker 5: with Jesus, I think has shifted a lot.
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: And it's been beautiful.
• 47:08
  Speaker 5: Um, and I think we're more confident in him than
• 47:12
  Speaker 5: ever through this.
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: Well, it's a Testament to you guys for not, you know,
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: walking away from the faith. Cause I do know a
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: lot of couples that have gone through something similar and,
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: and they're no longer walking with the Lord. And it's like,
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: if something like this could happen, I guess Jesus was
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: never real. And I'm like, well, Jesus never really changed.
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: You did kind of through this, you know, And the.
• 47:32
  Speaker 5: Fact that you guys- Hey, Curtis, not to cut you off,
• 47:34
  Speaker 5: but I would throw, I tell couples all the time, like,
• 47:37
  Speaker 5: just so you know, Jesus doesn't stop walking with you.
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: Wow. Just FYI. I no longer walk with Jesus. Well,
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: tough news is that unfortunately, he's still walking right next
• 47:49
  Speaker 4: to you. You can choose to acknowledge it or not,
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: but I walked away from God. Did you? You have
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: that much power? You walked away from God?
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: So just something to consider.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: Man, that's- Yeah, I'll be chewing on that for a minute. That's,
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: that's wild, man. Well, dude, I got to ask you
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: this question.
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: This has been a conversation that is, uh, definitely far
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: exceeded all of my expectations. And, um, you know, the book,
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: we're going to put a link in our show notes
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: on how you can check out the book, overcoming infidelity.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: If you need the book for yourself, I mean, I
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: can't wait to read it.
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: And I think it's going to help a lot of
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: marriages or buy the book for somebody who's going through
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: something like this, um, to just prove that there is
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: hope on the other end of this.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you one more question, Carl, if I can.
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: Um, What's the Holy Spirit been speaking to you lately
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: just in your prayer life as you've been walking with
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: the Lord?
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Go, go, go, go, walk.