Latest / INSPIRE STORY / BILL GATES REVEALS_ _I Was Wrong About Success

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BILL GATES REVEALS_ _I Was Wrong About Success · INSPIRE STORY

0:00
Speaker 1: This is a world where somebody can have over one
0:03
hundred billion dollars. What is that These fortunes are almost
0:07
illegitimate unless in a very smart way given back. One
0:12
of the biggest names in business, tech, and philanthropy.
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Speaker 2: Exploring and investing in innovative solutions to some of the
0:18
world's toughest problems, Bill Gates.
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Speaker 1: Starting with Microsoft, where I had monomaniacal focus, giving up
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weekends and vacation wasn't some big sacrifice. I loved it.
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The idea that everybody would use a computer was somewhat ridiculed,
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so it was kind of fun saying no, no, this
0:35
is really going to be mainstream.
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Speaker 2: If you look at it from the outside, you see
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Steve Jobs and yourself having this competition and the jealousy.
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What was actually like?
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Speaker 1: He said we were the General Motors and he was
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Mercedes Social Networking. We're still arguing about what the policy
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should be. Algorithms reward outrageous things, even if they're not
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at all factual. I've always underestimated how incredible my fault was.
1:00
He would say, hey, I'm sorry, I worked so hard,
1:02
and I'd say, no, no, no, that was fine. I feel
1:04
lucky that he lived as long as he did. It
1:07
brings tears to my eyes because he was incredible.
1:11
Speaker 2: Do you remember one of the final conversations you had
1:14
within the number one health and wellness podcast.
1:22
Speaker 1: Set Jay shed.
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Speaker 2: There's so much conversation today I feel about work life balance.
1:30
Do you think that that sacrifice and that dedicated time
1:34
was necessary for the levels of success or would it
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have been possible in another way?
1:38
Speaker 1: No. I think for Microsoft to be successful, even though
1:41
we were the first we and we had a broader
1:44
concept of software than the other companies, we needed to
1:48
be what I would call hardcore. And you know, in
1:53
that case, the work is what I want to do.
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It's it's not like, oh God, you know, I've got
1:59
to earn a little bit more money. It's you know,
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this is the thing that throughout my childhood I was
2:05
so lucky, you know, because of my parents and some
2:08
early friends, the school I went to, I had these
2:11
exposures to computers that were very rare, and so I had,
2:19
you know, all these thousands of hours of programming experience
2:22
and great feedback on okay, how do you do it
2:24
better from the very best adults. I got to see
2:27
what was coming and the idea of being part of
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making that real. You know, I woke up and said, okay,
2:35
I'd love to get to work. My younger self could
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stay in you know, days at a time. I don't
2:40
do that now. But then it was just in no
2:43
way a hardship, you know, because I felt we were
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part of something that was would be very empowering, and
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you know, competitively, I wanted us to be the ones
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to make it happen.
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Speaker 2: One of your favorite quotes that I've always loved is
3:00
you've said, we overestimate what we can do in one yea,
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and we underestimate what we can do in ten ya.
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Is at the beginning, did you underestimate yourself?
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Speaker 1: Well, people when they would hear us say a computer
3:12
on every desk and in every home running Microsoft software,
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they were like, you kids, really out of it? I
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mean every desk, every home. You know, what would people
3:24
do with these things? But because the chips were improving exponentially,
3:29
doubling every couple of years, it allowed us to think
3:33
of the computing part as essentially been free. And so
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the only thing that would hold you back is you know, okay,
3:40
can you help people with photographs? Can you help them
3:44
with documents, can you help them stay in touch with
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people far away or find information? And we knew over
3:52
time that as these things got better, it would would
3:57
be part of the mainstream. And so as people sort
4:00
of came around to that, they were like, Wow, whether
4:03
it's at work or at home, this is just part
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of how how people do things, and we wanted, you know,
4:11
to get it out to everyone, you know, students everywhere,
4:15
you know, even in the countries that are low income.
4:18
Speaker 2: You mentioned your parents earlier, and when I was reading
4:22
this book, I felt like they are such a big
4:24
paw of this book and the storytelling and the incredible
4:28
experiences and memories. And one of the things you mentioned
4:31
is you say that they felt that they accepted that
4:34
you were different from your peers, And I was wondering,
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in what way, how did you know that they'd seen
4:39
that and accepted that.
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Speaker 1: Well, it definitely confounded them that sometimes I was pushing
4:44
back in a pretty tough way, you know, as though
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you know, we were in some competition. They would hear
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from teachers, and they were very good about saying in
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touch with my teachers. You know, some teachers would say
4:58
this kid should be skipped ahead. Had one or two grades.
5:01
Some teachers would say this kid should be held back.
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You know, so that kind of is what you know,
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make up your mind. You know, I had one experience
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where I worked on a report about the state of
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Delaware and I ended up doing this two hundred page
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report with the great would cover well. The other kids
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turned in you know, five or ten page reports, and
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it was very embarrassing that I thought, Wow, did I
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you know, kind of overdo this thing. And yet you know,
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that ability to concentrate, you know, would hold me in
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good stead in terms of reading long books and applying
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that concentration and curiosity first to cards, then to math,
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and then finally to software and how would software change
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the world. But you know, they never were quite sure
5:49
what to do, and you know, sending me to a
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therapist actually ended up being brilliant and sending me to
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a very nice private school where the classes were a
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bit small, and you know, I could get I always
6:02
got an unfair share of attention from the teachers. You know,
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we'd have like fifteen people in the class, but you know,
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almost twenty percent of the teacher's time in terms of
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telling me what to read or you know, marking my
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writing up. You know, I got an unfair share partly
6:19
because my curiosity or energy level you know, did mark
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me out in both positive and negative ways.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, what what influence do you think doctor Cressie actually
6:29
had on you? Because therapy had that time and in
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your eli age looking back on it, now, what do
6:34
you feel it gave you? What skills did I give you?
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Speaker 1: Well, it's very it was a very rare thing. In fact,
6:39
the other people coming to him were these couples that
6:42
were having arguments, and so in a I hope privacy
6:46
appropriate way, he would kind of give me a sense
6:48
of that. He gave me a few IQ tests. He
6:51
you know, had me read about Freud and all these things.
6:54
But slowly but surely he was saying to me that
7:00
your parents really has no purpose. I mean, they really
7:03
do love you, they're on your side. You should apply
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your energy towards other things. And you know, eventually he
7:12
made me feel kind of foolish, like, yeah, why was
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I taking these what I thought were kind of arbitrary
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rules or where my mom would say you should respect me,
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and I'd say, well, you know, I don't know. And
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a little bit as I figured out, I could understand
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things like playing cards as well or better than my grandmother,
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or you know, I could read books that had complicated things.
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I was a bit showing off to saying, because my
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cognition is good, why should you be able to set
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arbitrary rules. But anyway, I'm embarrassed when I think about
7:43
it now. But doctor Cressey was so encouraging to me
7:49
in general, and then got across he probably understood at
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the first meeting that I had to be convinced to
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make this change, but he did it in this a
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super nice way. And so the idea that no, my parents,
8:07
yes they're imperfect, but wow, they're on my side. That
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that changed my behavior.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and did he also had these beautiful ways of
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you said, he never belittled you, and I believe he
8:19
used to mention to you're going to win or he
8:22
wanted you to win. And I feel like that's what
8:26
did those things do because it's almost like you're saying,
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he made you have this almost this realization that you
8:31
were wrong, But it seemed like he did it in
8:33
a very graceful, elegant way, like how did how did
8:36
he do that?
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Speaker 1: Absolutely? They you know, I thought, oh, I need to
8:41
be so clever to win and I'm going to apply
8:43
all this energy to win. And so the idea when
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he says, no, you're going to win, it's like, oh,
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I see, it's not because I'm clever. It's because it's
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as you know, they they care for me and they're trying,
8:55
you know, to help me, and you know, their main
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concern is, am I ready you know, to go out
9:01
in the world. And if I have capabilities, will I
9:05
develop those and use those? And you know, my mom
9:10
always had a way of kind of pushing me to
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do more. I said to her once, you know, you
9:15
told me to go to the heart of school and
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she said, no, I never actually said that, And I
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said to her, well, wait a minute. When other parents
9:24
would come over, you'd say how bad they must feel
9:27
that their kid didn't go to college or something like that. So, okay,
9:30
it was indirect, but you know it was kind of there.
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So you know, my mom certainly encouraged me, you know,
9:38
and sometimes I felt overwhelmed by that. But my eventual
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reaction to just okay, try to outdo any levels she
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sat and ended up working out, well.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, what was something that you didn't value about your
9:52
mom at that time? That Now looking back, you said, no,
9:55
I do value that.
9:56
Speaker 1: Well, things like table manners. Well, you know, okay, I
10:01
have to take the catch up and put it in
10:03
a bowl and then do this, and I'm not supposed
10:05
to put my elbows on the table. And you know,
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she was just you know, trying to make sure I
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was civilized a little bit, you know, what I would wear.
10:16
And they definitely got me engaged with adults. You know,
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my social skills were slow to develop with people other
10:24
than a few boys like myself, but with adults because
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they were having them over and I, you know, God,
10:31
so I could ask those adults to talk about what
10:33
they were doing. That was really valuable to me because
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I ended up through that and through one of my
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early friends, having more of an outlook of okay, where
10:42
am I headed at quite a young age, which was
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super helpful.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so funny. As I was reading the book,
10:52
I was reminded of so when I graduated from college,
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I didn't go to my graduation ceremony because I left
10:58
to become a monk, and my parents were They were
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very kind and accepting in my decision. But my mother
11:07
still has this feeling that she doesn't have a picture
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of me graduating wearing the hat and you know, holding
11:13
my certificate, and I remember I was having the same
11:15
feeling that you were where my mom would always may
11:18
say to me, Oh, when I go to my friend's houses,
11:20
they're telling them about all the jobs that their kids
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are doing and the apartment they just moved into, and
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you're just there being a monk, like you know. She'd
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say that to me, And it was always that kind
11:29
of feeling, like that sense of pressure to live up
11:32
to something she wanted me to do, even though there
11:35
was love and there was acceptance, and I was wondering
11:38
for you, like you said it yourself. She was such
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a powerhouse. She had such high expectations. When did you
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feel that you reached that or do you feel you've
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reached that?
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Speaker 1: Well, Unfortunately, my mom passed away in her early sixties.
11:51
She got breast cancer, and so I had gotten married
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six months before or she passes away, so she never
12:01
got to see that. I tried to follow her example
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as a parent. She never got to see the foundation
12:10
get going. My dad actually ran the foundation and got
12:13
it off to a fantastic start, so he was involved.
12:17
But her sort of dictate about Okay, if you are successful,
12:20
you have to give back. It's a shame that she
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didn't get to kind of participate and see that I'm
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following what she said despite all the times I pushed
12:34
back on her.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, do you still feel that today that it's almost
12:37
like she had voices in your head and she's present
12:40
in that way.
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Speaker 1: Oh? Absolutely. The you know, the sense I have of okay,
12:44
I've got to do this and do that, well, that's
12:47
you know, really came from her. My dad more set
12:50
the example of being calm and thoughtful, you know, also
12:54
great great values. But much you know, it wasn't through
12:58
the interaction. He would you know, leave pretty early. And
13:03
if my mom had to escalate to call him in,
13:05
you knew you better give in because that was kind
13:09
of the ultimate thing. But yeah, so each in their
13:13
own way, he through example, her through high expectations, deserve
13:19
a lot of credit. And you know, part of this
13:21
book is to really honor them. And two of the
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young friends I had who set me on a great path. Well,
13:31
it's pretty insane. This is a world where somebody can
13:34
have over one hundred billion dollars. I mean that, you know,
13:39
what is that you know, you don't want to just
13:42
give that to children and create some dynasty that's not
13:45
even a favorite to them. Sadly, the wealth metric is
13:50
an easier one to compute than you know, the impact
13:55
you've had philanthropically. I have a good French both with
14:01
Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg. Elon stands by himself. Maybe
14:06
that drives everybody else together. I don't know.
14:09
Speaker 2: I was wondering, what was your biggest realization about your
14:12
father from writing this book.
14:13
Speaker 1: It's weird. I've always underestimated how incredible my father was,
14:18
his values, even the exchange with my mom, you know,
14:23
before they get married. His one of his dreams was
14:27
to be a federal judge, and he eventually that was
14:30
offered to him. And because his law firm would have
14:36
had great difficulties, he said, no, I that would hurt
14:40
my colleagues, so I'm not going to do that. And
14:42
I had written him a note saying, gosh, I hope
14:44
it's not because she had to pay all that tuition,
14:46
that you're not getting to do this, and I'd forgotten
14:50
he'd written me back such a nice note. So you know,
14:52
in digging through, I'm amazed we end up keeping those things.
14:56
It was so touching to me. Now, I you know,
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I'll I'll spend my whole life trying to live up
15:01
to the example.
15:03
Speaker 2: He said, What was it like finding that reply, forgetting
15:07
that he had replied?
15:08
Speaker 1: I mean no, well, certainly it brings tears to my eyes,
15:11
because you know, he was incredible, and towards the end
15:17
of his life we did get a little more direct,
15:20
you know, where he would say, hey, I'm sorry, I
15:22
work so hard, and I'd say, no, no, that was fine
15:25
to be doing that, you know. And so instead of
15:29
things being sort of through my mom once she was gone,
15:32
he had to build up that communication in a way
15:35
it was far more intimate. You know, I feel lucky
15:38
that he lived as long as he did.
15:41
Speaker 2: How does that as that relationship evolves, Like it felt
15:45
like when I was reading Source Code, I felt like
15:47
your father was there to always save you in these moments,
15:50
like he'd pick up the phone, he'd be involved in,
15:53
you know, talking to you and your friends, like he
15:54
was there in these very pivotal moments that felt like
15:57
almost professional support from him. Of course done his intelligence
16:01
and background as well, But it sounds like that evolved
16:04
to a much more emotive, intimate space like that. What
16:07
does that look like for a father and a son
16:10
across all those years.
16:11
Speaker 1: You know, and when I was going off to college,
16:14
you know, I'd call my parents every couple of weeks,
16:17
but you know, you couldn't like text and send photos
16:20
and so but I always knew, you know, that they
16:24
were supportive. And so I actually got into a little
16:28
bit of trouble where I'd taken my colleagues into the
16:30
computer center and done some of the early Microsoft basic work,
16:35
and the college as they filled position to supervise that
16:40
computer center, like wow, did you break the rules? And
16:44
you know, my dad was always so kind of wise.
16:48
You know, when I ever it was like, oh my god,
16:50
I may screw it up here. I better get on
16:54
top of this. You know, that's a time where I
16:56
call him in and his advice is very helpful. You know.
17:00
Then later we have a customer who's not paying us,
17:04
and our very first customer, another case where my dad
17:09
encouraged me to stay the course. So it wasn't in
17:12
those days that I talked to him a lot, but
17:16
that when I was in trouble, he was the one person,
17:19
you know who was so sophisticated, and you know on
17:23
my side that his advice really did help me at
17:29
a lot of key turning points. And you know, then
17:35
later when we have a relationship where we actually talk intimately,
17:38
I was able to thank him for that.
17:42
Speaker 2: Do you remember one of the final conversations you had
17:44
with him.
17:45
Speaker 1: And well he got Alzheimer's and he because he was
17:49
such a nice person, he was still like super nice,
17:52
you know, always worried did his caregivers get enough meals
17:56
or you know, eventually the fact he grew up in
17:59
the depression showed because he'd be worried about you know,
18:03
are we buying too expensive a meal? You know, even
18:06
though he had as much money as he could ever need,
18:09
you know, so you know, we got back to his
18:12
basic character, which was just very friendly and thoughtful. So yes,
18:20
I feel like in his case, we did have those
18:23
conversations that I never got to have with my mom.
18:27
Speaker 2: There's the one phone call you described the three words
18:31
he used of I hear you when he was talking
18:34
to the school, and that left such a strong imprint.
18:37
Could you tell us why that was such a big
18:40
moment for you that.
18:40
Speaker 1: Well, I was in this contract discussion with this group,
18:45
I thought, you know, owed me some computer time. So
18:50
that's the first time that my dad is pitching in
18:54
to help. And you know, I thought, what's he going
18:57
to do? Is he gonna, you know, threaten them or
19:01
be tough on them? And no, not at all. The
19:05
fact that they sort of gave their side of the argument,
19:08
and then you know, he just simply said I hear you,
19:11
which was this way of saying, you know, I don't
19:14
agree with that. You know, let's try and reach a
19:18
compromise here. You have your point of view. So just
19:21
the way he said I hear you, you know, kept
19:25
things really calm, didn't acknowledge or attack their position, so
19:32
we could get on to the Hey, you know, if
19:35
you meet these guys halfway, isn't that okay for both
19:40
of you here? Which is is what eventually came out
19:44
of it. And so the idea of being subtle and
19:48
helping to find that common ground I was young enough
19:51
to that was kind of blew my mind. Yeah, wow,
19:54
you can kind of hold your ground but without being provocative.
20:00
Speaker 2: What would you say, is the one way your mother
20:03
influenced your parenting style and then your father influenced your
20:06
parenting style.
20:07
Speaker 1: Well, this idea that it was actually kind of school
20:11
called love and logic, where you make expectations to the
20:15
child very very clear, and you make consequences very very clear,
20:19
and in an unemotional way, you say no, you're going
20:22
to have to go to your room because we agreed.
20:24
If you did this, that's what happens. My dad practiced
20:29
that approach. My mom probably wanted to, but then if
20:33
she was frustrated, you know, she'd be, oh, I'm so
20:36
disappointed and kind of bring emotion into it. So the
20:40
intensity of how much my mom cared, I you know,
20:44
I think that was was great and I think kind
20:46
of that calm, predictable. Hey, the world works in a
20:52
clear way, and you know, I'm on top of the world,
20:55
and here's what I need from you. You know that
20:58
very much came from my dad's So I tried to
21:01
be a little more around. You know, my wife, Melinda
21:06
deserves all the credit. You know that our kids have
21:08
come out as well because she really was around. But
21:10
I tried to be. That's the one thing I did
21:14
a bit differently than my dad was was more more
21:18
intense vacation time, a little bit more of a direct communication,
21:22
not through their mother.
21:25
Speaker 2: How did you reconcile that towards the end about your
21:27
father's style, and how did you make space for that
21:29
and accept.
21:30
Speaker 1: That in that generation. You know, my dad's career was
21:34
a very big thing. In fact, having all sorts of
21:37
adults around for events, you know, it was connected to
21:40
his career, and you know he did very well. He
21:43
was a top lawyer in Seattle. So I never resented
21:48
the idea that that my dad was very busy. You know,
21:53
you had kids early. You know, the man's career is important. Later.
21:57
My mom also not only is doing voluntary activities, but
22:00
as people wanted women on boards because she had the
22:05
right background, she got a huge number of those opportunities,
22:08
and she got a little busy herself. You know, I
22:14
don't think the amount of time is the only key
22:19
factor there.
22:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd have to agree. When I was reading it too,
22:22
I was thinking that. And this was what I found
22:25
so interesting Bill, when I was reading Source Code, that
22:28
even though you have lived such an other worldly life
22:31
in so many ways, there were so many relatable moments
22:35
from a parenting standpoint, And when I was reading it,
22:38
I was thinking about my father too, who wasn't around
22:40
a lot when I was younger, he was working. Both
22:43
my parents had to work. And to the point you
22:45
just made right now, like my father wasn't there when
22:47
I was playing rugby, or he wasn't there when I
22:50
was swimming for my you know, local club, or he
22:53
wasn't there on the sidelines cheering, And for me, that
22:59
really allowed me to become the man I wanted to be,
23:02
and it allowed me to have more freedom almost to
23:05
not feel like there was this heavy expectation. And I've
23:08
always seen that as a positive thing because it allowed
23:10
me to have a broader definition of what it meant
23:13
to be a man, what it meant to be a son,
23:15
what it meant to go off and discover something that
23:18
I was passionate about. And so even seeing you kind
23:21
of having your mother be the one who was almost
23:24
you know, pushing the expectation and what the family should be,
23:27
but then having a bit of freedom, it was interesting
23:29
to see how that impacted you to be able to
23:32
push back, to be able to you know, even at
23:35
one point, like you said in that letter, like parent
23:37
him almost in his decision and play that role. So
23:41
it was refreshing for me to read a book about
23:43
you where I was where I was actually seeing parts
23:46
of myself in certain relationships in a very relatable way.
23:50
Did you ever anticipate that when you were writing it?
23:53
Speaker 1: I was surprised, you know, So when I'm describing going
23:56
on those hikes, I was thinking, boy, would I have
23:59
let my son go off? And we really are holding
24:06
back children a bit more, you know, out of a
24:10
sense of okay, ultimate safety, I guess. But you know,
24:14
in that generation I was allowed to take trips and
24:17
hikes and and I think it benefited me. And so
24:21
writing the book, I was like, wow. And you've talked
24:24
with people like Jonathan Hyde about this largely a bit overprotecting,
24:30
you know, kids so that they don't get to make
24:33
mistakes or try themselves out or mature the way that
24:38
is best for them.
24:39
Speaker 2: Do you think school's failing children?
24:41
Speaker 1: If you have thirty people in a class, it's pretty tough.
24:44
You're going to have some kids who are behind and
24:46
somewhere our head. You know, even the best teacher has
24:50
got a big challenge with that. Education. I wouldn't say
24:53
is much better or worse today than a few decades ago.
24:57
We've always thought, okay, when we bring the computer in,
25:00
you know, will that helpful and certainly if you want
25:03
to find information, it's been great. We're still working on
25:07
that now with the AI. Maybe a personal tutor will
25:11
be encouraging and work on your level. It's early days,
25:14
but I've been out seeing some of that in classrooms,
25:17
people like Salcon with Konomigo that our foundation is is
25:21
helping to support. But education, the computer has not made
25:28
it so oh wow, kids learn a lot more today
25:31
than they did did a long time ago, and I
25:35
still believe we can change that. But it means if
25:38
you're in one of those large classes, you can feel
25:40
lost and you know we're missing, you know, great human potential.
25:46
You tend to man each other people the way you
25:48
manage yourself. First time I felt it was when I
25:50
was hiring people who moved their family and they had kids,
25:55
and I was like, if I can't pay this guy
25:57
is check. This is rude. You know he's got a
26:01
real problem, and I'm kind of implicitly promising him I've
26:04
got this thing figured out. So that scared me.
26:07
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HLP dot com Forward slash Ja's top three. What are
27:33
we getting wrong? Because it sounds like you felt maybe
27:35
the computer would give people that impetus and the ability
27:39
to download more and learn more. Where have we gone wrong?
27:42
Speaker 1: Well, the key is motivation. If you have a kid
27:45
who's super motivated, then yes, going to the con website
27:50
and doing hours of math problems, that's great. But in
27:54
a way that takes the kid who's in that top
27:57
twenty percent and makes him even more are intimidating to
28:02
the other ones. And you know, people can come in
28:04
and if a kid in eighth grade says is math
28:09
a subject you have any confidence in? If the answer
28:13
no to that, they're five times more likely to drop out.
28:17
And so we do lose kids, and it's more out
28:22
of motivation. And so most of the stuff we've done
28:24
on the computer is about okay, if you are motivated,
28:27
will help you out, and not so much about how
28:31
you make it feel relevant to them and give them
28:33
a sense of success. And maybe this time around with
28:37
these AI personal tutors will get that right. But kids
28:42
check out. No, I'm not one of those kids who's
28:48
good at math, even though for a lot of professions,
28:51
and you know, for college courses we require algebra two
28:56
tests to be passed in order to go on, and
28:58
you know, even be a nurse or a policeman, so
29:01
we have work to do. Yeah, but more on the
29:05
motivational side.
29:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really, I really appreciate you saying that, actually,
29:09
because I do think that we think about changing education
29:12
is so theoretical and functional, but it is the drive,
29:15
It is the motivation. And I was thinking about how
29:18
we put limits on ourselves when I finished sixth grade.
29:21
I remember before I went to high school, my favorite
29:24
subject was math in sixth grade, and my least favorite
29:27
subject was art. And then when I finished high school,
29:31
my most favorite subject was art and my least favorite
29:34
subject was math. And it was just fascinating to me
29:36
how that completely flipped over a seven year period. And
29:41
as I've grown up in my own life, I found
29:43
that art and design, philosophy, economics are far more where
29:46
I naturally gravitate toward. But so much of that up
29:49
until sixth grade was the limits or the things that
29:52
were expected of me, as opposed to what I was
29:55
motivated and driven towards. And I was thinking about something
29:58
you said in the book. You said that if you
29:59
were growing up today, you would have been diagnosed with
30:03
being on the ortism spectrum. And I was wondering how
30:05
would that have affected you? How do you think that
30:07
would have affected you?
30:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm fascinated by that because for some people, being
30:12
given a label is a pejorative to them, and you know,
30:16
almost feel shameful. Although we know, you know, being on
30:21
the spectrum gives you, you know, almost some superpowers of
30:25
concentration that if you find the right place, it can
30:28
be helpful. Other people. They're glad when they get that
30:33
because then they say, oh, that's why, you know, my
30:37
social skills were slowed to develop, and you know, here's
30:40
some strategies that people like me have used. I'm not
30:45
alone in this, you know, I fit in into this,
30:48
and it's actually a reasonably common thing. There isn't like
30:53
some medicine ADHD, you know, which I probably also would
30:57
have been diagnosed with. They do have the vocal and
31:01
out of all a variety of things they give kids
31:04
for that, and I still wonder about that. I haven't
31:07
chosen as an adult to get a diagnosis or use
31:10
those medicines. I think eventually you learn to, you know, adapt.
31:16
I still kind of rock a little bit that when
31:18
I'm thinking hard and without even knowing it, and it
31:22
does bother people sometimes and that's definitely kind of a
31:27
what they call self stimulation behavior that you know, makes
31:32
it pretty likely I fit into that diagnosis.
31:36
Speaker 2: Do you think it would have changed your trajectory of success?
31:39
Have you thought about that?
31:40
Speaker 1: Or I worry that I might have thought of it
31:43
as pejorative. It's really how you communicate it. I mean,
31:48
if you say, hey, here's a kid who doesn't socialize
31:52
at all, and you're you know, sort of destined to
31:57
you know, never be good at those things. You know,
32:01
obviously to create a company, hire people, motivate people, go
32:04
out and you know, sell the the dream of computing.
32:09
I've had to, even though I'm not a natural, you know,
32:12
develop a lot of social behaviors, and it might have
32:15
discouraged me unless it was done in a very tasteful way,
32:20
you know. I think of that doctor Kressey experience where
32:24
he didn't make me feel terrible while enlightening me that
32:30
I was wasting my time as well as my parents' time.
32:36
Speaker 2: Did you did you continue therapy after that or ever?
32:38
Speaker 1: Go? Yes, I most periods of my life I found
32:43
it useful to have a therapist where I'm talking to about,
32:47
you know, what's confusing or what's troubling. I think, you know,
32:52
I'm I'm very lucky to have that. I think, particularly
32:56
if you have a life where some extreme things happen
33:00
that you know, luck is a huge part of that
33:04
to you know, keep your you know, keep you on
33:07
the ground. A good therapist can play an invaluable role there.
33:12
So yeah, I benefited to this day from those kind
33:16
of conversations.
33:18
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I was thinking about in the book. Obviously
33:20
you beautifully introduced us to Kent, and obviously the loss
33:23
of Kent seems to be a place in your memory
33:26
that's naturally so difficult and fuzzy, And you talk about
33:30
in the book how you're not quite sure what your
33:33
parents would have said and how it all felt. And
33:35
I was just wondering if there were any did you
33:37
Did you have support at that time through therapy and
33:39
other ways to deal with that grief?
33:41
Speaker 1: No, And I've been looking recently, people like Annison Cooper
33:45
are talking about, Okay, how do you deal with grief?
33:49
And you know, a lot of what they come up
33:51
with is that if you can keep talking about the
33:55
person and you know what you got from them, you're
33:58
kind of honoring them. You know, Kent's parents obviously were
34:04
the most affected by this because they would never have
34:08
this incredible son and you know who would have, no
34:12
doubt gone off and done incredible things. And I remember
34:16
spending time with them for like a year afterwards, and
34:19
then feeling a bit guilty that as I got busy,
34:24
I didn't do that as much. You know, in the book,
34:27
I actually start out where I've seen Kent's father. I
34:31
run into him right as I'm starting work on the book,
34:35
and you know, we can talk about what a great
34:38
influence he had on me, and you know, so I
34:40
did think that was helpful, but boy, it took me
34:43
a long time because death, it was just such a
34:46
shocking thing. I have this ideally childhood other than Ken's death,
34:51
nothing at all traumatic. And we're talking all the time,
34:59
you know, a little bit I reach out to Paul
35:01
to kind of feel Paul Allen, who goes on to
35:04
found Microsoft with me to step in and you know,
35:08
be that that super close friend. But back then, the
35:13
idea of how you dealt with trauma was mostly, hey,
35:16
buck up, you know, get on with things, which after
35:19
a few months I did.
35:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, And also at that time, you're talking about how
35:24
he actually invited you on the trip he went to
35:26
and like you're talking just before he goes off, and
35:29
then all all of a sudden, you're like, wait a minute,
35:31
we used to talk every day or you know, and
35:34
that it can feel so disassociated from yourself in that moment.
35:38
It feels like, how did you revisit that? When did
35:42
you kind of turn towards working through the grief as
35:45
you wrote the book? Did it feel like you were
35:46
revisiting it?
35:47
Speaker 1: But definitely, you know at that high school when I
35:51
built a hall in his name and you know, gone
35:54
out there and talked a little bit about the role
35:59
that can't played in my evolution, you know, so some
36:05
efforts to honor him, you know. Sadly, you know, Paul
36:10
al and also the other key frind in this book
36:14
died I think about six years ago from cancer. And
36:19
you know he he also was very key at getting
36:22
me on the right path. And there wouldn't be you know,
36:26
without those those two friends, you know, there really wouldn't
36:29
probably wouldn't be anything like Microsoft.
36:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, you talk about how Paul was setting your little
36:34
challenges and would ask you to, you know, try this
36:37
and do that, and then you'd go ahead. And I
36:39
was thinking how amazing to have a friend that can
36:42
motivate and inspire you in that way. And then I
36:44
was thinking about what you just said when I was
36:46
reading the book, that it felt like you told so
36:49
many stories of so many people in your life that
36:51
are no longer hear now, And so grief wasn't just
36:54
about Ken o' paul. It was there's so you know,
36:57
just so many individuals that you've had life with that
37:01
you're having to process that with what has been helpful
37:04
for you genuinely deeply inside that has led to some
37:09
sort of helpful direction with that grief of writing a
37:13
book about all these wonderful people that you've lost.
37:15
Speaker 1: Well, most of my life has been about looking forward
37:18
and okay, let's get this innovation. Let's do it first,
37:22
and you know, whether it's software saving children's lives, which
37:26
is the big foundation thing. And it is a little
37:30
bit unnatural for me to look back because you have
37:34
to say, Okay, how do I describe my relationship with
37:38
my mom in an open, honest way and yet honor her?
37:43
You know, how do I talk about camp where I
37:45
don't know if he'd lived, what would have happened? But
37:49
you know, probably you know something that he would have
37:52
very much been a part of it. And so it's
37:55
awkward to look back because you have to deal with
37:58
these things and talk about you know, you know, should
38:01
have vibes spent more time with his parents afterwards, you know,
38:04
because eventually I stopped doing that. But you know, this
38:09
year I turned seventy. I mentally don't feel like I
38:13
think of a seventy year old, but you know, it means,
38:16
you know, I'm in the final third, no doubt of
38:21
you know what. I've been very lucky to live and
38:25
so you know, I really did force myself say no,
38:28
there's some lessons out of this, you know, telling people
38:31
how lucky I was, and maybe a few lessons for
38:34
them as parents or how they navigate success. And so
38:41
once we got going on it, I've enjoyed it quite
38:44
a bit. I have to say, when I'm reviewing it
38:46
and editing it, I'm very slow because I'm you know,
38:50
reliving these things. So it always takes me about three
38:53
times longer to take some pages and edit than I
38:57
predict or if it was you know, something like about
39:00
climate or pandemics. You know, I'm pretty fast. There's no
39:04
deep emotion that I have to relive as I'm editing
39:11
something scientific.
39:13
Speaker 2: What was your favorite part to relive and what was
39:16
the hardest part to relive?
39:17
Speaker 1: Well, everything about the fascination we had and you're like,
39:22
what do we see this thing? These computers are going
39:26
to be amazing, and but no one else is saying that,
39:29
so we must be wrong. And you know that contradiction.
39:35
So you know Paul actually I helped him get a
39:39
job out in Boston so he could be out there
39:41
and bugging me that, okay, should we go build a company.
39:46
And then finally when this kit computer, which is so
39:50
limited that it's the beginning of the revolution, when that
39:54
comes out, then you know Paul's argument we should go
39:58
and do something. He wins because we don't want to
40:01
be left behind. We want to be there from the
40:04
very beginning. And then we meet a few people that
40:07
was still very small movement. We meet other people like
40:10
Steve Wilsney, next Steve Jobs who also you know, have
40:14
been infected with this idea of Okay, we're on to
40:17
something that is going to be huge.
40:21
Speaker 2: That part, I mean, the reasons that you did to
40:24
find in this book, I was every time I was reading,
40:26
I was just like how do you have so much detail?
40:28
I was really blown away by the level of detail
40:32
both in the storytelling every moment. But then even there's
40:35
that note that you have that says Steve Jobs called
40:39
was rude, and I was just like, you know, even
40:41
just having that back then, I was laughing as I
40:44
read it, and I was wondering, like, I feel like
40:47
as from the outside and naturally, and you talk about
40:51
this later on in the book, how we see people
40:53
as this like slither of who they are. And people
40:56
have a public profile and that becomes their brand. And
41:00
if you look at it from the outside, you see
41:01
Steve Jobs and yourself having this competition, envy, jealousy, kind
41:05
of like arch rival, nemesis kind of portrayal. What was
41:09
it actually like, because in the book it comes across
41:12
much more inviting than that as opposed to this kind
41:15
of harsh rivalry.
41:18
Speaker 1: Well, I had a fantastic relationship with Steve.
41:20
Speaker 2: You know.
41:21
Speaker 1: Early on I got to do the basic which they
41:25
called Applesoft that went with every Apple to computer. So
41:30
I worked with both Jobs at Mousniakt to get that done.
41:35
Then later as Steve has a kind of small group
41:38
inside Apple doing the Macintosh. He invited Microsoft to write
41:43
application software a spreadsheet word processor for it, and so
41:48
we actually had as many people as they did, and
41:51
we worked very closely on that project, and he and
41:53
I loved the fact that that ended up being a
41:57
key Apple product. Then he leaves Apple. I talked to
42:03
him about next but I never thought that computer would
42:06
do that well. So he was disappointed. But then when
42:09
he goes back and he's it's unbelievable, what a great
42:14
job he did. Because Apple went from being on the
42:17
way to dine to being the world's most valuable company,
42:22
and Steve had really matured and it's was something and
42:26
I know we helped write software for that. Then later
42:30
when Steve uh is sick, we had about five different
42:35
conversations where we got to talk about kids and you know,
42:39
had computers done well, and you know where he was
42:42
pretty thoughtful. It's amazing to me that Steve, you know,
42:47
his skill set and mind other than okay, you know
42:51
Madman leader, you know, drawing people in but he his
42:56
taste in design and used their interface and even as
42:59
in tuition about people. He was just genius in a
43:03
way you can't explain. He didn't look at code and
43:06
write code, whereas you know, my thing is, hey, I'm
43:10
an engineer. You know, here's the code, let's make it
43:13
faster and smaller. So actually that allowed us to get
43:17
along because you know what he was super good at
43:20
I was not good at. I envied those just incredible
43:24
talents that he had. Then somebody's he's more singular. You know,
43:27
if you say to me, are there other people like
43:29
you who are great at writing code and conceptualizing thing? Yeah,
43:32
I can name a number of people, including many who
43:35
worked with me, But I don't know somebody who's who
43:40
I say, Oh, yeah, you know, he's just like Steve Jobs.
43:43
Speaker 2: Well, well that's very Humblivia as well. I mean that's
43:46
beautiful to hear. What were some of those final conversations
43:49
like that you had with him that were potentially I
43:52
always felt like he was so philosophical and maybe more
43:55
so in those moments.
43:57
Speaker 1: Yeah. We did one public appearance, you know, where we
43:59
were being thoughtful about the friendship. What Mosburg had us,
44:04
had us on stage together, which was definitely a fun
44:07
thing and surprised people because Steve was very harsh. Uh,
44:11
you know, he was a you know, he said we
44:14
were the general motors, and he was like the Mercedes. Uh,
44:18
but you know, all in uh, it was all very fair. Well,
44:23
we you know, we reflected that computers really hadn't improved education,
44:27
and where both he and I had given speeches saying,
44:30
of course this will make education, you know, five times better,
44:34
and we're like, wow, we got that one wrong. Maybe
44:38
you know, maybe next round we'll deliver on that promise.
44:43
And you know how unusual it was even a little
44:46
bit lonely that, you know, when you were so successful
44:50
and then you're having doubts about, okay, are we making
44:54
mistakes here? You know, both of us had had kids
44:58
by then. He was actually uh you know, of course
45:01
he not only did Apple, he did the Pixar stuff.
45:04
And because that was a realm I'm not in, I
45:07
you know, could sincerely tell him what a brilliant job
45:11
he did. Now partly picking people, but that's you know,
45:15
kind of amazing, uh, you know, now part of of Disney,
45:22
and you know, in both a sense of thankfulness, although
45:26
you know, he was very sick and just hoping some
45:28
new drug would come along, and tragically it didn't.
45:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, was there a memorable piece of advice or conversation
45:34
where you said something to him or he said something
45:36
to you that has stayed with you.
45:37
Speaker 1: Well, the fact that, you know, why were we both
45:40
so competitive and pushing ahead? I think both of us.
45:44
You know, in his case, he's an orphan, so he
45:45
has a more complicated childhood that maybe can explain his zeal.
45:52
I don't have any thing like that, you know, even
45:55
though Kent died, that's not why. You know, Well before that,
45:59
I was somehow always you know, pushing as hard as
46:02
I could be. And you know, I think both of us,
46:07
you know, being thankful for what we'd been able to
46:10
work on. I mean, you know, we got more of
46:13
a front row seat and help build this thing. Steve
46:18
never got around to doing philanthropy. Now, his widow, Loreen
46:22
is doing great philanthropy, so you know that's I'm sure
46:27
he'd be proud of that. But he didn't get to
46:30
that stage. And I was just getting into that stage.
46:32
So I shared with them a little bit about, wow,
46:35
a lot of children die and we don't do much
46:38
to stop that, and that kind of intrigued him, but
46:41
then he never got to pursue it.
46:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're reminded me of something I read in Bob
46:45
Eye his book where he was talking about how there
46:48
was a time when Spielberg, George Lucas they'd all sit
46:51
together and then they'd watch each other's movies and give
46:54
them feedback. And they all felt very confident in doing
46:57
that because they knew their strengths and their unique were
47:01
so diverse, and so they didn't feel threatened that, oh, well,
47:05
Steve's going to steal my idea or you know, George
47:07
Luke's going to steal my idea, because they felt so confident.
47:09
And it sounds like even for yourself as competitors to
47:12
talk to have a relationship, does that still happen today?
47:16
Do competitives talk? Do they pick up the phone to
47:18
each other? Was that very rare? Because it feels like
47:22
it feels definitely now so less.
47:25
Speaker 1: I have a good friendship both with Jeff Bezos and
47:30
Mark Zuckerberg. Elon stands by himself. Maybe that drives everybody
47:35
else together. I don't know. And you know, over time,
47:38
I think Elon as he gets older, maybe he'll mellow
47:42
out a little bit and you know, probably be an
47:46
incredible philanthropist based on everything else that he's done. But yes,
47:50
there is some good conversation you know, Larry Ellison is
47:54
now in a phase where he's doing some excellent philanthropy
47:58
and we're all a bit more reflectible. I mean, hopefully
48:01
by the time you get to seventy you've been hyper
48:04
successfully you can you know, relax and let your guard
48:06
down a little bit and you know, laugh about the
48:10
things you got wrong.
48:11
Speaker 2: Yeah. What were some of the advice that you've given
48:13
to Mark or especially earlier on his journey or even
48:16
more recently.
48:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, Microsoft, the one big challenge we
48:22
had is we were so successful by the late nineties
48:25
that we got into and I trust difficulties and in retrospect,
48:31
we could have handled that better. And so I've been
48:33
very open with Mark. You know, I used to break
48:37
that I didn't have an office in DC and I
48:40
didn't you know, what a great country that I didn't
48:42
have to talk to politicians. Well that was a mistake,
48:46
you know. Now you know you've got all of them
48:49
going to the inauguration, and you know, so they're not
48:54
they're not making that mistake. Maybe they have they corrected
48:57
too much in another direction. Well, you know, his history
49:00
will judge. See, Yeah, I'm you know, it's weird to
49:04
be kind of an elder statesman, you know, Satya who
49:08
runs Microsoft has done such a brilliant job. And in
49:12
one of my great fears when I left Microsoft to
49:14
go do philanthropy was how bad I would feel if
49:18
it wasn't doing well. And so Steve Balmer did a
49:22
great job and now Satchaz with this AI generation. So
49:25
I that's another great blessing is that not only the
49:29
value the stock, but also the fact I can just
49:33
focus on Okay, what about polio and malaria? You know,
49:36
knowing that they're taking the company to new heights. You
49:40
know what a great blessing that's been for me.
49:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like I love what you were just
49:46
saying now that you know, maybe there'll be a time
49:49
when Elon turns to philanthropy. And you talked about others
49:52
and it, and it seems that that turning point view
49:56
is so key, And I feel like you were one
49:58
of the first, not that it was and done before,
50:00
but one of the first to do it in a
50:02
really big way. To be able to move away from
50:05
this big company that you founded, world changing, generation changing,
50:10
and then turning to that and that service element. To me,
50:14
I was intrigued as to why do you believe that
50:17
that's almost where every one of these people need to go? Like,
50:21
why is it that you believe that turning to a
50:23
life of service and giving back is core for Elon
50:26
or whoever else it may be.
50:27
Speaker 1: Well, it's pretty insane. This is a world where somebody
50:30
can have over one hundred billion dollars. I mean that,
50:36
you know what is that and it's not you know,
50:40
you don't want to just give that to children and
50:43
create some dynasty that's not even a favorite to them.
50:47
You want to give that back. So these are unprecedented fortunes.
50:53
And if you're a great innovator and you know how
50:55
to gather scientists together and think about problems, then there
50:59
are some government just risk averse, and particularly poor countries
51:04
don't have that capacity to think about eradicating malaria, are
51:09
solving malnutrition. There is something that philanthropy can have these
51:16
outsized results in terms of lives saved, almost like you
51:19
know a great startup does on the side of innovation.
51:24
So getting those minds to turn those capacities to equity
51:30
to the poorest, both inside the US and outside the US,
51:36
you know, I feel that, you know, we've got the
51:38
golden rule we're supposed to care about people. There are
51:42
times when it feels like sympathy for poor people outside
51:46
the country's lower today then it's been, But I know
51:49
that'll come back around because of the moral logic there.
51:54
I think I believe is very very strong. And you know,
52:00
I found it so fulfilling. You know. I created a
52:03
group called Giving Pledge of people who've committed to give
52:08
the majority of their wealth away and we learned from
52:10
each other. Hopefully we inspire each other, and hopefully we
52:13
change the societal expectations that if you have even a
52:18
modest fortune, most of it should combine with your talents
52:23
and make the world a bit more of a fair place.
52:29
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it's absolutely brilliant because I was really
52:32
fortunate when I went out and lived as part of
52:35
my time as a monk in India, we helped put
52:39
together a well the monks were doing already, but I
52:41
got to be a part of it. Helped build a
52:45
daily food distribution service in India that feeds a million
52:49
kids a day.
52:49
Speaker 1: Wow.
52:50
Speaker 2: And it was all in exactly what you're saying, like
52:52
to help them malnutrition children. And now they're even trying
52:55
to figure out how much protein to have in it,
52:57
like trying to figure out the actual composition as well.
53:00
Oh and I remember seeing that so early in my life,
53:03
like I would have gone out there first time in
53:05
my teens and then later on when I became a
53:08
monk in my early twenties. But the reason I raise
53:11
it is because I think it goes back to what
53:12
the point you made earlier about motivation. And one thing
53:16
I've really been trying to figure out with the right
53:19
partner recently is how when I grew up, I remember
53:22
my dad used to read the rich List, and he'd
53:24
have the rich list, like the Sunday Times or whatever
53:27
it was, And so as a kid, I would see
53:29
my dad and on the back of it would be
53:30
the rich List. And I was thinking, how incredible would
53:33
it be if kids grew up with the service list,
53:35
and how would that change motivation? Because I feel we
53:39
repeat what we've reward and I feel like we've never
53:42
really seen that case study yet up until maybe you
53:46
know your case study and the people that are following
53:50
with the giving pledge that service becomes a natural part
53:53
of life at that scale. I think we see it
53:55
in smaller communities. You see people with very little actually
53:59
doing so much, but you don't necessarily see it at
54:01
that level. And so I find that changing that drive
54:05
and motivation early on, which it seems like your mother
54:07
had for you, your impact of faith had in you.
54:10
I think that could be huge. I don't know what
54:13
you think about people seeing a service list instead of
54:15
a rich list or whatever the right word is.
54:17
Speaker 1: Sadly, the wealth metric is an easier one to compute
54:23
than you know, the impact you've had philanthropically. And part
54:29
of the beauty of philanthropy is there's many causes out there.
54:32
You know, I've tried to think through. Okay, you know,
54:37
since we know how to save lives for one thousand
54:40
dollars per life saved, wow, we better use this money
54:45
as absolutely best we can. And I do think we're
54:50
going to see a rise in philanthropy. I mean, you know,
54:55
these fortunes are almost illegitimate unless they are in a
55:02
very smart way given back. If it's consumption, if it's dynasty,
55:07
I don't think society should feel that good about it.
55:11
And you know, I sat down with Bernie Saunderson. He said, no,
55:15
he would outlaw billionaires. I think that's a mistake. I
55:18
think allowing in America in particular, wild innovation, wild risk
55:24
taking is good. But then on the back side of that,
55:28
there should be a strong expectation. And I think role
55:33
models help a lot. You know, Warren Buffett and very
55:36
different industry, very different skill set. You know, he's always
55:40
been a role model. Was the one who, even when
55:43
I was still building the fortune, said Okay, your mom
55:48
is right, you know, and here's some books you should read,
55:53
you know, Carnegie Gospel of Wealth, the history of what
55:55
Rockefeller did, because this will be an important and as
56:01
important a measure of your impact as making the money.
56:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's such a brilliant lesson and wonderful
56:08
one to pass on what I think it was Trump.
56:11
You mentioned it recently that you'd ask to see him
56:13
to have a discussion. Did that meeting have a happened.
56:16
Speaker 1: Yeah. I had a very long and actually very impressive
56:21
dinner in terms of he asked good questions. You know,
56:25
I talked about over ten million people are alive because
56:29
of US generosity with HIV medicines, going back to President
56:35
Bush in two thousand and three, and you know, I
56:38
encourage him to keep that as a priority and to
56:41
accelerate innovation you know, there's an idea that you might
56:45
be able to curates that we're working on, and he
56:48
could help accelerate that. I talked about polio eradication and
56:52
how his leadership and the US government resources are very
56:57
important there, and you know, I'm sure everybody's trying to
57:00
meet with him. The fact he gave me that long
57:02
period of time was actually pretty thoughtful in his questions.
57:06
You know, somebody may come along later and tell them
57:08
to cut that money, but I make the argument as
57:10
best I can that you know the moral purpose of
57:15
the US and how we're thought of, and you know
57:18
the fact that a curius is on its way that's worthwhile.
57:23
You know. So this administration is in charge and you know,
57:27
trying to help them. You know, they're willing to cancel
57:31
old things, some of which should maybe be canceled, some
57:34
of which shouldn't, you know, So they're you know, helping
57:37
direct them so they'll use their open minded US to
57:41
do different things and try and make that come out.
57:43
Well I and I think that's that's worth trying.
57:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, what what do you see is the moral purpose
57:48
of the United States? And the way you mentioned it
57:51
just now.
57:51
Speaker 1: Well, we've been the shining light of not only being
57:54
a democracy ourselves and you know, having political opponents respect
58:02
each other and work well together, but also you know,
58:05
saying that even though we're in this very powerful position,
58:07
we won't abuse that position. And Okay, if we allowed ourselves,
58:14
you know, to let other people spend too lettle on
58:17
some things, you know, there's there's a balance there. But
58:20
if you become too much of a bully and you're
58:24
not keeping democracy, which requires reducing the polarization and bridging
58:32
some of these divides, that's a little bit scary. You know,
58:36
democracy is a fragile concept, and particularly the time when
58:40
AI is coming along, and the government will have to
58:43
play a strong role in saying, okay, these jobs have
58:46
been lost, but we're more productive overall, and therefore, here's
58:50
how we help those people. You know, how do we
58:55
keep AI as a primarily beneficial thing versus a thing
59:03
that bad people use and it messes up these job
59:06
markets that I expect the twenty twenty eight presidential debate
59:10
AI policies will be the most important thing. And I
59:14
was a little bit surprised in this election that wasn't
59:19
discussed hardly at all.
59:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a good point. I didn't actually think
59:22
of the the You're right, it didn't. It didn't come
59:24
up a tool. Yeah, that's fascinating. Well, how I mean,
59:28
how do you prepare for something like that? It would
59:30
need need to be surrounded by the right people and
59:33
having the pies.
59:34
Speaker 1: Well, you've got to educate everyone. You know, you can't
59:36
count on the technologists to shape these things. You know,
59:40
social networking, we're still arguing about what the policy should be.
59:44
And you know the fact that algorithms reward outrageous things
59:49
that even if they're not at all factual, and AI
59:54
heightens all of that. And you know there's an era
59:58
where getting the politicians to see the technology including all
1:00:03
this good stuff, personal tutors, better medical care, even making
1:00:07
the government more efficient. You know, this is the most
1:00:09
promising set of tools because bureaucratic paperwork, AIS actually are
1:00:16
pretty darn good at at reading and processing those kinds
1:00:22
of things. So you know, we're on the precipice of
1:00:25
these AI breakthroughs. The reliability and capabilities. You know, it's
1:00:31
kind of an extension of what I worked on as
1:00:35
a child, you know, personal computers, then internet, then cell
1:00:40
phones and now AI. But it's because it's it's super intelligence,
1:00:48
it's of a different character and will it'll put us
1:00:51
to the test on how we work together within the
1:00:55
US and how how countries work together.
1:00:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting because as you're doing about social media there,
1:01:02
I think Mark Zuckerberg and Joe Rogan was saying that
1:01:05
they are taking away their fact checks, and I believe
1:01:08
X is doing something similar. What was your take on that.
1:01:11
Speaker 1: You know, this whole thing of how you balance free
1:01:14
speech versus not you know, discouraging people from using vaccines
1:01:19
when that would be beneficial for them, or even extreme
1:01:23
stuff like holocaust denial or some bad things there. I'm
1:01:29
a little bit disappointed that my generation hasn't got a
1:01:33
clear prescription to how we achieved both the goals free
1:01:39
speech and yet reasonable discourse that's not misleading people. I mean,
1:01:45
during the pandemic, you know, the negativity about vaccines, some
1:01:50
of which you know had me being some you know,
1:01:53
weird mis behaving actor, you know, which was a lot
1:01:57
of craziness. You know, clearly over a million people died
1:02:02
who should have benefited from the vaccine. And next time,
1:02:08
you know, whether it's an out of control AI or
1:02:10
the next pandemic the impact of not getting facts out
1:02:15
could be much more dramatic. I mean, the next you
1:02:20
could have a pathogen that was ten times or twenty
1:02:22
times as fatal as COVID was, particularly once omicron comes along.
1:02:27
The fatality rate is actually reasonably modest and mostly elder people.
1:02:34
So politics meets AI is where a lot of our
1:02:41
fates will be determined, even in the next ten years.
1:02:46
Speaker 2: And how do you see a role in that?
1:02:48
Speaker 1: Well, hopefully there's some things I really do understand about that,
1:02:53
and whether it's giving advice to Microsoft or in my
1:02:56
foundation work on education and health using it. You know,
1:03:01
the place where you have the greatest shortage of teachers
1:03:03
and doctors is impoort countries in Africa. And so the
1:03:06
fact that these things, you know, can give farmers advice
1:03:10
and give a pregnant women advice and look at what
1:03:13
your kid is eating and say no, you need more
1:03:16
protein in this diet, and it's essentially free, you know,
1:03:20
the way that computing was free that I saw when
1:03:23
I was young. Now we're getting into this even more
1:03:26
radical thing of intelligence will basically be free. You know
1:03:33
that that's kind of wild stuff. So I hope both
1:03:37
with some specific ideas, but then with the lessons of
1:03:41
the past of where we've been able to shape things
1:03:45
so far, you know, so that I think personal computing
1:03:48
has largely been an empowering thing.
1:03:52
Speaker 2: You know.
1:03:52
Speaker 1: I was reading this book Nexus, where Harai says, then
1:03:55
when the printing press comes along, it actually is books
1:03:58
about witches and how you find witches that are the
1:04:02
best selling. So just thinking because we have new capabilities
1:04:06
that will necessarily use them at first in a net
1:04:10
beneficial way. That's sadly a naive concept.
1:04:14
Speaker 2: Yeah that, I mean, you've raised such a good point there,
1:04:16
even this idea. I loved what you said that you
1:04:18
said you wish your generation could have figured out how
1:04:21
to not have these extreme polarizing conversations but actually find
1:04:26
this healthy middle ground, whether that be through algorithms, whether
1:04:29
that be through how we use technology. What is it
1:04:32
that Why do we keep doing that? It almost feels
1:04:35
like that's a repeated mistake where we come across this
1:04:39
horizon of this new world, new technology, new ideas, but
1:04:43
then we always use it for almost the same thing
1:04:45
or something that feels, you know, insignificant compared to what
1:04:49
it could do. Where are we going wrong? Why can't
1:04:52
we get that right.
1:04:53
Speaker 1: Well, it's kind of amazing how wealth humanity is done.
1:04:57
You know, the you know, the violent death rate eight
1:05:00
over hundreds of years have gone down a lot. You know.
1:05:03
More recently, we've gotten vaccines out to children and gotten
1:05:08
the annual death rate from ten million a year to
1:05:10
turn the century down to about five million. Vaccines being
1:05:15
the biggest, uh part of that, because we got them
1:05:18
out to most of the world's children. So humanity for
1:05:22
a being that grew up in these small hunter gatherer groups,
1:05:26
now you know, we have a big cities, complex technology,
1:05:29
our ability to get along. You know, in some ways
1:05:32
it has been good. You know, nuclear weapons that when
1:05:36
I was young, you know, my greatest fear was, Okay,
1:05:38
there was going to be a nuclear war. And I
1:05:41
do worry the current generation is that to have that
1:05:44
exposure to it so ort you know, the Arms Treatise
1:05:47
and you know, spending too much money on builting those weapons.
1:05:52
I do worry that we've lost track on that one.
1:05:55
But at least, you know, we haven't used those and
1:05:59
you know, we've done pretty well so far, and you know,
1:06:04
will we this time? I think this is is probably
1:06:07
the hardest innovation because you know, we do have human limitations.
1:06:11
They even I when I see an outrageous article against
1:06:16
somebody I don't like politically, I'm very tempted to click
1:06:19
on it and have it tell me, Yeah, he's even
1:06:21
stupider than you thought, or you know, he this is
1:06:25
a mistake. You know, we're all subject to that, and
1:06:31
and we do like to form into groups. But you know,
1:06:35
all of humanity ideally is a group where philanthropically and
1:06:42
you know, government generosity, we can think of ourselves as
1:06:45
being part of that as opposed to much you know,
1:06:47
our clan or race or nation.
1:06:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think on a global level, it requires what
1:06:54
you were saying, and on a personal level, it requires
1:06:57
us to almost be able to evaluate, assimilate, assess, you know,
1:07:04
have self awareness, allow for self reflection, space for you know,
1:07:09
the things we don't have time for anymore. Right, you know,
1:07:12
I was looking into something called the third space theory
1:07:15
and how in the past you had your home, you
1:07:17
had work, and then you had church or temple or
1:07:20
community center, and how those three spaces, that third space
1:07:24
was a place you could look back on home and
1:07:26
work and say I could treat my wife a little
1:07:28
bit better, or I could have spoken to my colleague
1:07:31
a bit better, and that third space allowed that time
1:07:35
and energy where it was all about reflecting on how
1:07:37
you could improve. But today we've lost three spaces into
1:07:40
two into one where we work from home, live at home,
1:07:43
and the screen is our third space. And so that
1:07:46
lack of having a physical body or building that gives
1:07:51
you permission to step back from your whole life, not
1:07:57
play a role there and actually of a what's going
1:08:01
on in your life? We've lost that.
1:08:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a shame. You know. The decline of religion
1:08:07
is a very strong trend. You'd hope there be a
1:08:11
modern religion that takes whatever is put people off and
1:08:15
yet preserves kind of this golden rule and this okay,
1:08:20
at a local community level, we're supposed to help each other.
1:08:23
If you expect government to figure out how to solve things,
1:08:28
you know, it's too bureaucratic. The local church based groups,
1:08:33
oh this person needs help, I have extra time, you know,
1:08:37
is way more effective. And so we expect too much
1:08:41
from government in a way. So I hope we can
1:08:45
re energize, you know, perhaps through a type of religious
1:08:50
modernization or maybe just a community thing that is maybe
1:08:54
spiritual but not labeled as religion. That local engagement where
1:09:02
you see other people that I think we need more
1:09:05
of it.
1:09:05
Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely, Bill. I've got to you for a couple
1:09:08
more moments, and there's a few things I wanted to
1:09:11
ask you. One was you talked about how in the book,
1:09:15
how being the smallest person in the room and that
1:09:18
status was something that you may be hid behind and
1:09:23
your insecurities were hidden behind. And I was wondering, is
1:09:26
that something that you've been able to put down that
1:09:29
god and take that away as time has moved on.
1:09:31
How were you able to do that?
1:09:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've mellowed a little bit, uh, you know, to
1:09:36
learn how to work with people who are intelligent in
1:09:40
different ways, you know Microsoft, I had to get marketing
1:09:44
salespeople at the foundation, you know, people who go out
1:09:47
in the field and do heroic work and so my
1:09:50
you know sort of single view of Okay, math cape
1:09:53
capacity is you know, this this great thing I've mellowed
1:09:59
and being able to bring in different skill sets.
1:10:02
Speaker 2: But no, I.
1:10:04
Speaker 1: Started off being pretty bad at that.
1:10:06
Speaker 2: What were those insecurities that you're hiding?
1:10:08
Speaker 1: Well, you tend to manage other people the way you
1:10:10
manage yourself and so when I make a mistake in
1:10:14
programming her math, I'm very tough on myself, and you know,
1:10:17
I'm like, you need to spend more time, you need
1:10:20
to work harder, and it's kind of a tough love,
1:10:23
don't fool yourself thing. And so my early management style
1:10:29
worked for people like me, but not as well for
1:10:34
other people. And so year by year, you know, I
1:10:37
did growth Microsoft. A lot of entrepreneurs, you know, don't
1:10:41
stay as CEO and you have to bring in someone else.
1:10:45
I wanted to do that, and so by bringing in
1:10:48
some other people, I got better at that. I would
1:10:51
say moving over to the Foundation was another level of
1:10:55
how you bring in different of talent. And so yeah,
1:11:01
I'm trying. I'm still trying. I'll be better a year
1:11:06
from now.
1:11:08
Speaker 2: Well, I was most excited that you said there's still
1:11:10
two more books coming after this one to talk about
1:11:13
the different areas of your life. And I really enjoyed
1:11:15
this one so much. I'm so excited for people to
1:11:17
read it to get to know you better, to get
1:11:20
to know the people that have changed your life for
1:11:22
the better and allow you to do all the incredible
1:11:25
phenomenal work you do today. And I honestly, am so
1:11:27
inspired by the work you do today, and I really
1:11:30
hope that I can be involved in some small ways.
1:11:33
So I thank you deeply.
1:11:34
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, It's been fantastic.
1:11:36
Speaker 2: It means the world. Bill. We end every episode with
1:11:39
a final five. These questions have to be asked in
1:11:42
answered in one word to one sentence maximum. So Bill
1:11:46
gates these your final five. The first question is what
1:11:48
is the best advice you've ever heard or received?
1:11:51
Speaker 1: You know, finding what you really enjoyed doing and hopefully
1:11:56
there's some job that has that as a opposed to
1:12:01
you know, what jobs pay well or other people push
1:12:03
you to. If you're doing something you really enjoy that,
1:12:06
it's hard to beat.
1:12:08
Speaker 2: And you found that early.
1:12:09
Speaker 1: I was super lucky on that. You know, computers were
1:12:13
there right when I needed them.
1:12:16
Speaker 2: Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever had
1:12:19
or received.
1:12:19
Speaker 1: People will tell you not to take risks, and it's
1:12:24
very well intentioned, but there are contexts, you know, when
1:12:28
you're young. You know, like people say, Okay, it must
1:12:32
have been scary to drop out. Not really, I mean
1:12:35
I could have gone back. You know, there's no flesh
1:12:38
wounds involved in failure, you know, So failures, you know,
1:12:43
probably a better teacher and more of an okay thing.
1:12:47
And I think this whole safety thing, physical safety, you know,
1:12:52
emotional safety in many cases that we've gone too far.
1:12:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, but did dropping out that at that time feel
1:13:00
like a big risk.
1:13:01
Speaker 1: No, it did not. Even the first time I felt
1:13:03
it was when I was hiring people who moved their
1:13:07
family and they had kids, and I was like, if
1:13:09
I can't pay this guy his check, this is rude.
1:13:12
You know, he's got a real problem, and I'm kind
1:13:15
of implicitly promising him I've got this thing figured out.
1:13:19
So that scared me.
1:13:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, was that There's a scene in the Social Network
1:13:23
where you're on stage and Mark Zuckerberg's in your in
1:13:27
the auditorium, and then they leave and they say, the
1:13:30
speaker just said the next Bill Gates could be sitting
1:13:32
in this room, and then Mark goes, that is Bill Gates?
1:13:35
Is that true?
1:13:35
Speaker 1: That is absolutely true. Mark and I have laughed about
1:13:39
that a lot, that our experience at Harvard dropping out
1:13:42
of Harvard, you know, telling people that hey, we saw
1:13:46
something other people didn't see. Very very similar.
1:13:51
Speaker 2: Question number three, what would you say is the most
1:13:54
important problem the smilest people on the planet should be
1:13:57
solving right now.
1:13:58
Speaker 1: There's many candidates, you know, making sure we don't use
1:14:01
nuclear weapons, avoid bioterrorism, climate change, caring for the poorest,
1:14:06
which we're kind of losing that. But I would say
1:14:09
shaping AI has for me risen to the top of
1:14:14
that list. We need to do all those. We can't
1:14:17
just skip you know, any of those. But this one
1:14:22
is going to be a very big deal in the
1:14:26
next decade.
1:14:28
Speaker 2: And what would be your advice to the biggest business
1:14:31
leaders in the world in regard to that?
1:14:33
Speaker 1: Well, I don't think you can count on them. Their
1:14:35
competitive framework is to go full speed, and so only
1:14:39
government's in a position to say, wait a minute, slow down,
1:14:42
you know, for the good stuff. You want them to
1:14:46
lower the price and get it done sooner, and so
1:14:50
we can't. Although yes, they should be part of the
1:14:52
dialogue and they're humans and citizens too, but you can't
1:14:57
count on them because the metric for them is to
1:15:02
go full speed.
1:15:03
Speaker 2: Question numberfore, what is your favorite mental health habit?
1:15:07
Speaker 1: You know, it's a very big deal for me to
1:15:09
get time reading and thinking by myself, whether it's on
1:15:15
a walk or going driving. When I would see you
1:15:18
at Microsoft. I took two full weeks think weeks one
1:15:22
every six months, where I would just go off by
1:15:25
myself and think, okay, is Microsoft on track? What are
1:15:29
the trends? Towards the end, I'd write a memo which
1:15:34
actually was kind of valuable as we navigated the twists
1:15:38
and turns like when the internet comes along, or you know,
1:15:41
software is not reliable enough. You know, I need that
1:15:44
time to think. Even though I love quick thinking, you know,
1:15:49
being in a meeting and spotting a mistake, most of
1:15:53
my good work has come from the kind of slow
1:15:56
thinking where I'm off being reflective and maybe coming up
1:16:00
with some non obvious ideas. You know, maybe it's a
1:16:05
little bit my, you know, being on the spectrum. I
1:16:08
need that refreshment, you know. And I see my schedule
1:16:12
with lots of social interaction for a week, then I'll
1:16:15
try and make sure the next week has a little
1:16:17
bit less of that. But you know, to maintain creativity,
1:16:22
you have to have some calmness and be not behind.
1:16:27
If you feel like you're behind, like you turn on
1:16:30
your email like, ah, oh I'm late. You know that
1:16:35
that your creativity gets gets squeezed up. One of the
1:16:40
first things.
1:16:40
Speaker 2: And does that think we need to be a nature?
1:16:42
Are you away from everything? Is it? Are you simply thinking?
1:16:46
Are you taking books? Are you janeting?
1:16:47
Speaker 1: Or is it I'm taking books to read, but I'm
1:16:50
also taking very long walks on your own and just
1:16:53
thinking about things. And I love I take a tablet
1:16:56
of paper and write things down quite a bit bid.
1:17:00
And you know, I'm pretty religious. I'm not taking phone calls.
1:17:04
I'm not browsing the news. You know, the news can wait,
1:17:10
you know, And I'm off by myself twenty twenty four
1:17:13
hours that whole time. Somebody can stick some food in.
1:17:18
But and you know that's kind of extreme. You know,
1:17:22
there's people like Kerrari who meditate kind of an unbelievable
1:17:25
one to I almost envy him. I don't think I
1:17:30
would go that far. But we should be more in
1:17:33
his direction than we are.
1:17:35
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. And what's the book you've gifted most? Actually,
1:17:39
I'm intrigued because you're such a big reader. You recommend
1:17:42
so many great books. What's the book you've gifted to
1:17:44
people close to you the most?
1:17:45
Speaker 1: There's a Stephen Pinker book called Better Angels of Our
1:17:49
Nature that talks about even though in the short run,
1:17:54
we see how tough things are. If we zoom out
1:17:57
a little bit and say, okay, two hundred years ago,
1:18:01
to be a woman, to be gay. You know, thirty
1:18:04
percent of child children die. You know, lifespan is less
1:18:10
than fifty years. You know that's not saying there's a
1:18:13
guarantee that those bad things we talked about won't happen.
1:18:19
But people are a little overwrought and saying, okay, you
1:18:23
know this approach to government is failing. Maybe we should
1:18:27
try something radical like not you know, being fully democratic.
1:18:31
I'm like, whoa wait a minute here, Yes, we need
1:18:34
to feel bad about the things we're not doing, but
1:18:39
we also need to have a perspective. The system of
1:18:43
scientific inquiry and democracy and widening our circle of care,
1:18:51
you know, beyond our family, clan, nation, as we discover
1:18:56
new things and we can share more resources. That really
1:19:00
is working. You know it sounds naive to say that,
1:19:07
but you know the books that really go through that
1:19:11
I find, you know, a guide how I think about
1:19:15
the world.
1:19:16
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Fifth and final question, if you could create one
1:19:20
law that everyone in the world had to follow, what
1:19:22
would it be.
1:19:23
Speaker 1: Well, if you look at all these religious texts, you know,
1:19:27
I'd say, the thing they all eventually come back to
1:19:30
is the golden rule, which is to treat people how
1:19:33
you would like to be treated. You know, I mean,
1:19:35
say that you're about to be born and you don't
1:19:38
know if you're going to be born a woman or
1:19:40
in Africa. This is a thing that Warren Buffett taught me.
1:19:44
You know what, you get to construct the world and
1:19:47
how fair it is, and then you we will randomly
1:19:51
pick and you will be born in some place in
1:19:55
some way. And you know, I think the construct that
1:19:59
would god the world you'd want for that is very
1:20:04
much going back to that golden rule. Not okay, let's
1:20:08
win wars, you know, let's outcompete, or you know, have
1:20:13
more money or resources than other people. And so it's
1:20:17
kind of a it's one of the few universal truths
1:20:19
that we should have that guide our behavior.
1:20:23
Speaker 2: I love that, Bill. Thank you so much for your
1:20:26
time on on Purpose today and genuinely so grateful for
1:20:28
your time and energy. It was thrilling to talk to you,
1:20:31
and I love getting an early copy of the book
1:20:33
and being ahead of the world on it. So thank
1:20:35
you so much.
1:20:35
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I've loved our conversation. So look forward
1:20:38
to more.
1:20:39
Speaker 2: Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, you're going to
1:20:42
love my conversation with Michelle Obama where she opens up
1:20:46
on how to stay with your partner when they're changing
1:20:50
and the four check ins you should be doing in
1:20:53
your relationship. We also talk about how to deal with
1:20:56
relationships when they're under stress. If you're going through something
1:20:59
right now now with your partner or someone you're seeing,
1:21:02
this is the episode for you.
1:21:04
Speaker 3: No wonder our kids are struggling. We have a new
1:21:07
technology and we've just taken it in hookline and Sinker,
1:21:11
and we have to be mindful for our kids. They'll
1:21:15
just be thumbing through this stuff. You know, their mind's
1:21:18
never sleeping