Latest / Romancing the Threshold / Karla Sorensen on the Why of Characters, Writing Craft, and the Body of the Writer

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Karla Sorensen on the Why of Characters, Writing Craft, and the Body of the Writer · Romancing the Threshold

• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Some writers tell you a story.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: A few of them,
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  SPEAKER_01: the rare ones,
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  SPEAKER_01: hand you something that feels like medicine you didn't know you needed.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Karla Soresen is one of those.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: I came to her books sideways.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: You see, I'm not a sports person.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't watch football.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the world she writes inside is one I know nothing about.
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  SPEAKER_01: But my curiosity was piqued,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I picked up one of her books anyway,
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  SPEAKER_01: and what I found inside captivated me.
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  I loved the way she writes her men in the books,
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  who are drawn from inside of their own armor.
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  SPEAKER_01: They reveal the wounds traveling through generations,
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  SPEAKER_01: they face their father's voices in the mirror,
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  SPEAKER_01: and they do the slow,
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  SPEAKER_01: brave work of breaking an inherited trauma cycle.
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  And her heroines,
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  the women,
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  were not there to fix anyone or to be martyrs.
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  They had their own complexity and inner sovereignty to both stand their
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  groundand
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  SPEAKER_01: yet also know how to surrender to their own growth.
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  I particularly loved how Karla writes about grief with such specific care
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  thatI
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  SPEAKER_01: could not only feel it in my bones,
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  I could admire how much better described it was than many other psychology
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  bookson
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  SPEAKER_01: the theme.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I reached out.
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  SPEAKER_01: And lucky me,
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  SPEAKER_01: Carla,
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  SPEAKER_01: with her generosity,
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  SPEAKER_01: not only said yes,
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  SPEAKER_01: but gifted me not just an interview,
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  SPEAKER_01: but a masterclass.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes, our conversation felt like a masterclass.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's the only word that fits in how a story actually arrives,
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  SPEAKER_01: what the body of the writer knows that the mind does not,
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  SPEAKER_01: and the strange labor of bringing characters into being.
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  Hearing Carla describe her writing process of birthing these stories onto
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  thepage
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  SPEAKER_01: gave me the image of how Jacob wrestled with the angel,
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  SPEAKER_01: viscerally,
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  SPEAKER_01: stubbornly,
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  SPEAKER_01: refusing to let go until something cracks.
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  SPEAKER_01: I admire how she follows the question, why is this person doing this?
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  SPEAKER_01: Through the thorns and thickets all the way down to the story's core.
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  and what comes back feels alive on the page in a way you feel it in your body.
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  I left this conversation both inspired about my own creative process but
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  alsowith
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  deep respect for her own visceral and embodied way to give birth to her
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  stories.
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  SPEAKER_01: It deepened my appreciation for her characters that I learned to love.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: This is Romancing the Threshold
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Vanessa Couto and I'm so glad you're here.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Pour yourself something warm because here's Carla Sorison.
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  SPEAKER_01: So, Carla, how are you doing?
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  SPEAKER_00: I am doing wonderful.
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  SPEAKER_00: How are you?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm good.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm good.
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  SPEAKER_01: I am so happy that you said yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm very excited.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad to meet you.
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  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for inviting me.
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  I was almost a little intimidated to say yes because your message that you
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  firstsentmewasso
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  it was just so thoughtfully worded and kind of what you saw in my books just
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  from
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  reading them there's almost this moment of like did I do that on purpose like
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  didI
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  didIreallydothatandandsothere'sthismomentofohmywordIhopeIcaneven
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  answer your questions in a way that kind of meets what you saw in my books so I
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  was
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  SPEAKER_00: really I've been very excited to talk to you about this too
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
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  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well,
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  I think what you're saying there is really something I've been thinking
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  aboutasa
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  SPEAKER_01: reader and the experience of the encounter.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think there are many encounters that are happening.
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  SPEAKER_01: And on one hand,
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  I'm curious about your own encounter with your characters in the process of
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  your
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  SPEAKER_01: creation,
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  SPEAKER_01: how you're,
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  SPEAKER_01: if you will,
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  SPEAKER_01: channeling these stories,
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  SPEAKER_01: bringing them down into book form.
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  SPEAKER_01: And me as a reader,
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  SPEAKER_01: I was thinking a lot about how romance reading stories,
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  SPEAKER_01: there is a very intimate encounter we all have with the book,
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  SPEAKER_01: with the characters.
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  SPEAKER_01: And as a creator myself,
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  SPEAKER_01: I know that once you birth it out into the world,
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  SPEAKER_01: we have no this thing has a life of its own now,
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  and it will interact and be a catalyst in ways that we can't even imagine.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so
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  I imagine for you as a writer your characters and how will your readers
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  approach
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  youateventsassuchorwritetoyouthey'resharingstuffwithyouthatyou
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  probably are like oh I didn't did that happen yeah there's there's
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  definitelyan
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  elementofthatumandIIIfeelitinthere'ssomeprettyspecificpeople
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  actually that I can think of where the reviewers that I've gotten to know over
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  the
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  SPEAKER_00: years that um
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  I like seek out their reviews I typically stay pretty far away from reading
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  reviews
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  on my books because I'm a firm believer that reviews are not for authors
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  they're
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  for other readers and I want to be respectful of reader spaces that they can
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  have
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  you know the the ability to be honest in that space even if they hated what I
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  wrote
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  or it didn't resonate with them or whatever it was there are a few people
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  though
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  SPEAKER_00: where over the years I've
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  soughtoutwhattheyhavetosayaboutmybooksbecauseIdofeellikeandyours
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  wouldprobablybesimilarwheretheyseethingsinmybooksthatIamalmost
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  surprised by where it's like a theme that maybe I didn't even intentionally
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  sit
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  SPEAKER_00: back and write out I'm going to do this in this book right and
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  andsothat'salwayslikesuchapleasantsurpriseformetokindofbeableto
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  take in what other people parse out from my books that I didn't necessarily
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  intend
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  to do but it's there and I had a conversation with one of those reviewers and
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  she's
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  a literary professor in her day job but she also reviews romance books and she
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  just
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  writesoutthemostthoughtfulintelligentreviewsandIlovereadingthem
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  andIwastalkingtoheraboutthatonceandshereferencedaninterviewwithI
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  thinkitwasthewriteroftheJoyLuckClubandshesaidthat'swhatshetalked
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  about like the author of any particular story doesn't necessarily
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  intentionally
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  chooseallthesethemesthatthereaderspickoutinitbutthat'skindofthe
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  mystery and the joy of creating it in the first place is I can't necessarily
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  sit
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  back and point to a particular part of my brain where these things come from.
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  SPEAKER_00: I just know that they come out as I sit down and I write.
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  And I don't necessarily even know where that instinct or that came from or how
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  I've
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  SPEAKER_00: honed that muscle over the last 14 years of writing.
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  SPEAKER_00: All I know is that the more that I listen to it,
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  and lean into that instinct of how to tell stories and how to approach my
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  characters.
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  I see that reflected in people's reactions when they come up to me at signings
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  and
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  talk about how it helped them work through the grief of the loss of their
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  parent.
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  SPEAKER_00: Or,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: you showed there was an email that I got that was just,
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_00: I just cried when I got it.
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  becauseIgotitonaharddaywherethewritingwasveryhardanditfeltlikeI
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  SPEAKER_00: didn't know what I was doing anymore.
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  SPEAKER_00: And why am I doing this job?
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  SPEAKER_00: This job is crazy.
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  SPEAKER_00: It just is.
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  SPEAKER_00: It is a very strange job that existential crises in plural,
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  I've had more of them in this job than anything I've ever done in my life.
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  SPEAKER_00: But then you get these emails and
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  SPEAKER_00: where somebody said,
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  I thought there was something wrong with me and how I was dealing with a
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  situation
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  SPEAKER_00: of loss and grief.
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  And reading this book made me realize that I'm okay and I'm going to be okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: I just have to get to the other side of it.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's powerful.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's a really powerful thing.
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  And it's a responsibility that I don't take lightly when it comes to writing
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  my
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  SPEAKER_00: stories because there are
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  are real people going through any number of situations on the other side of
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  their
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  SPEAKER_00: Kindle that when I put it out into the world,
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  likeyoudon'tknowwhoit'sgoingtoreachorwhattheimpactofthatstoryis
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  going to be when I'm sitting in my office wondering if I still know what I'm
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  doing.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's a real alchemical process, I feel.
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  There's something,
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  it's a mystery how,
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  as a creator,
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  something comes through you.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I always think about this image of sort of,
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  SPEAKER_01: we are,
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  SPEAKER_01: each one of us is sort of a little personal water well.
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  And we have our story and our things and our,
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  you know,
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  traumas and gifts and all that.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I think as a creator,
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  you're tapping into something much deeper that goes into the sort of the
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  collective
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  SPEAKER_01: water.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so when it's coming through you,
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  SPEAKER_01: and it's,
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  SPEAKER_01: of course,
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  probably picking stuff up that you have and it's coming through the story,
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  SPEAKER_01: but it gets transformed.
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  SPEAKER_01: And once it's out and it meets other people,
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  SPEAKER_01: the readers in this case,
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  SPEAKER_01: then it gets transformed again through what they're seeing,
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  SPEAKER_01: what they're picking up.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's such a magical thing.
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  SPEAKER_01: I always think about that, how magical that is, really.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I think that the collective experience that you're talking about,
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  I'vealwaysbeenfascinatedwithwhypeopledowhattheydolongbeforeIever
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  SPEAKER_00: started trying to write a book.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure in another universe somewhere, I was a therapist.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm glad you said that.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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  I have no doubt that there is another version of me that exists somewhere or
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  madea
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  different choice where I ended up being in a job where I could talk people
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  through
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  SPEAKER_00: why it is what they do,
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  SPEAKER_00: why they do what they do.
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  SPEAKER_00: Because any of my friends now will tell you, I love doing that.
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  IwhenIthinkaboutmyfriendsthatIwhetherit'sinreallifeormyauthor
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  SPEAKER_00: friends,
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  SPEAKER_00: which I don't even know why I call them author friends.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're just my friends.
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  I just happened to meet them because we're authors like I know their families
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  trauma.
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  SPEAKER_00: I know their friends trauma.
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  SPEAKER_00: I know, you know, like and because we will sit and discuss
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  that type of stuff because I love trying to pick apart why people do what they
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  do
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  and I think it's a level when you can approach people you don't know or have
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  never
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  met or you know through another person and you kind of have to view them
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  through
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  SPEAKER_00: this empathetic lens right
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  SPEAKER_00: There's always a reason why people are the way that they are.
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  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean that we're friends with all those people.
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  It doesn't mean that we even particularly like them or want to have them in our
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  life.
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  But I think when you are interested in studying people and why they react
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  certain
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  ways and you want to understand that because it helps you answer questions
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  about
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  them and it gives you that level of understanding about why they react
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  certain
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  SPEAKER_00: ways.
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  mycharactersarenodifferenttomethantryingtounderstandmyfriend's
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  sister-in-lawanditsoundsalittlecrazytosaythatoutloudthatIviewmy
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  characters almost as like separate entities but they are like it takes me
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  sometime
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  togettoknowthemasI'mwritingsoIalwayshavelikeaskeletoninmyheadof
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  SPEAKER_00: what those characters are like
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  SPEAKER_00: And then in the process of the book, they get fleshed out.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I find that nuance in why is this person doing what they're doing?
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  SPEAKER_00: And how can I as the author answer the question?
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  SPEAKER_00: Why are they reacting this way?
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  SPEAKER_00: Why is this triggering their fear?
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  Why does this make them want to run and hide or lash out in anger or whatever?
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  SPEAKER_00: There's always an answer to that question.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think if we as authors want to write
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  realistic characters who feel like real people who react like real people.
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  SPEAKER_00: We have to be able to answer those questions of why they do what they do.
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  SPEAKER_00: We can't just make our characters do whatever we want,
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  because then that's when you start relying on plot devices or maybe the
• 14:05
  character
• 14:06
  comes off as inconsistent or something feels really out of character from
• 14:11
  theway
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  SPEAKER_00: that you've set them up in the beginning.
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  SPEAKER_00: And
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  I've always had that in me of wanting to understand why people do what they do.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_01: I could see that in reading your books,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  coming from the therapy background and mental health and sitting with
• 14:30
  clientsdoing
• 14:31
  that work of literally sitting there and trying to see what's what's the
• 14:35
  trigger
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  SPEAKER_01: here?
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  SPEAKER_01: What's happening?
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: What's their story?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  andwhenIcameacrossyourbookslikeIsaidtoyouintheemailtheycametome
• 14:43
  sideways I was just looking for the next read and I came across I never thought
• 14:48
  my
• 14:48
  husbandevenwaslikeyoudon'tevenwatchsportsbutI'mlikeI'mreadinga
• 14:52
  football romance I'm going for it you know and and it just grabbed me
• 14:57
  immediately
• 14:58
  becauseinawayinreadingyourbooksIthoughtthisitmademefeellikeshe
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: knows I almost felt like
• 15:04
  this was so therapeutic in story form and I could see that the the work you've
• 15:11
  been
• 15:11
  doing and thinking why is the character doing this what's the real reason to
• 15:15
  meit
• 15:16
  translatedreallywelltheyfeltrealtheyfeltlikeIwouldhavemetthemas
• 15:21
  clients and I could really resonate with that and that's what really
• 15:27
  impressedme
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because even my friends are like, you don't even like sports.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: You don't watch it.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: But I was like, I'm so into this.
• 15:35
  This is amazing because and because I felt to the way you were writing men's
• 15:41
  pain.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: and grief.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, this is a masterclass in story form.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: I really wish people would read.
• 15:49
  They would go beyond,
• 15:51
  if you will,
• 15:51
  the cover and the synopsis that gets you to the door.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: But once you open that door, I thought it was so much more.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: There was so much depth and feeling that I really did.
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  SPEAKER_01: I really wish a lot of people,
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: men especially,
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: would read your books because the way you describe that,
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like it was very real.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like,
• 16:13
  I want to ask her,
• 16:14
  how does she,
• 16:15
  you know,
• 16:16
  how do these characters come to you?
• 16:18
  You know,
• 16:18
  you started talking a little bit about that,
• 16:21
  but let's,
• 16:22
  I guess,
• 16:22
  go there.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do the characters, how do the stories come to you?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think it depends on which book you're talking about.
• 16:30
  Sometimes I have a concept of the tropes of the book before I really know who my
• 16:37
  characters are.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes the characters come to me first and then I craft the story
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: around who maybe I think they are as people.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: because I've always been really interested in,
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: the psychology of personality,
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like I love personality tests.
• 16:56
  I love,
• 16:57
  you know,
• 16:57
  CliftonStrengths and Myers-Briggs and Enneagram and all of that kind of
• 17:01
  stuff.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: I often use the Enneagram as a guidepost for my characters of,
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: this is going to build in...
• 17:12
  a framework of what are they afraid of what do they want you know how do they
• 17:18
  react
• 17:19
  in certain situations and I don't get too deep into it you know as I'm writing
• 17:25
  the
• 17:26
  story it's just like a touchstone as I'm kind of creating the characters so
• 17:31
  thatI
• 17:32
  think is part of that skeleton that I talked about like I start with the
• 17:35
  skeleton
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: of like lessons in heartbreak for instance like
• 17:42
  so that's you know Ruby and Griffin I came up first with the idea of the
• 17:48
  identical
• 17:49
  twin brothers that's what I I loved that I did that was so archetypal yeah yeah
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  and
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: that's that's fun I think and I I think leaning into those really
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  I mean cliches often is used as a bad word but listen there there's a reason
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  that
• 18:08
  cliches become the way that they are yeah there's a resonance there yeah
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  there's
• 18:14
  always a resonance there and in stories too whether you want to call it cliche
• 18:18
  or
• 18:18
  universal fantasy or you know seeing certain things and having the polar
• 18:23
  opposite
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: twin brothers is a cliche that works in story form because you can
• 18:31
  You can exploit that dynamic in so many different ways when you're crafting a
• 18:35
  story.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I knew who Griffin was first.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I knew that Griffin was going to be this charming,
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: gregarious,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: little bit of a playboy.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: And what's his foil then as a female protagonist?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you're going to have somebody who's pretty opposite of him.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: She's going to be a little uptight.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: She's going to be very rule driven.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: She's going to be very structured.
• 18:59
  you know maybe a little introverted where that charming gregariousness is
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  just
• 19:04
  gonna grate on her a little bit right because that's the fun interplay yeah so
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  I
• 19:10
  start there and then I start asking myself the why question well why is she
• 19:17
  like
• 19:17
  this what would cause her what is something that could happen in her
• 19:22
  background
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: that would cause her to be this way and of course I have to think through
• 19:28
  what have I written recently what have I never written before I spend a lot of
• 19:34
  time
• 19:34
  talking about the character motivations and the backstories of that why
• 19:40
  evenif
• 19:42
  they don't take up a lot of page space in the story sometimes that's what I end
• 19:45
  up
• 19:45
  talkingoutwithwithfriendsthemostislikemetryingtopokeholesinmyown
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: thoughts of does this work though like does this hold up
• 19:58
  enough on the page where I feel like I can carry this through the whole story
• 20:03
  yeah
• 20:04
  and you know I don't feel like this is a spoiler because that book's been out
• 20:06
  for
• 20:07
  solongthatwasthefirstoneIreadwasthatokaythatwasthefirstoneyeah
• 20:12
  that was the first one I came across I made a pretty intentional decision at
• 20:17
  the
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: beginning of that book to kind of lean into the
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: story points that might seem like cliches.
• 20:25
  And it's almost like a challenge of can I pull it off in a way where it still
• 20:29
  feels
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: fresh and interesting and emotional.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I'll tell you exactly the reason why I wanted to try this.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: I was watching the first season of Maxton Hall on Prime.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if you heard of that show.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: It was based on a book series in Germany.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's straight cliche in the very best way.
• 20:56
  And I say this as somebody like I was eating this show up,
• 21:01
  kicking my feet as I'm watching it.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm texting all of my author friends like you gotta watch this.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: it's the rich a-hole guy at the prep school and she's the bookish poor on
• 21:13
  scholarship and they hate each other and they're paired together you know
• 21:18
  and
• 21:19
  there's just scenes that are complete universal fantasy that I didn't even
• 21:25
  care
• 21:26
  that it was quote unquote cliche because the way that she crafted that story
• 21:31
  was
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: addicting to me and it just made me think like
• 21:38
  How can you take elements like that and still do it in a way where your readers
• 21:43
  are
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: completely invested and they are eating it up with a spoon?
• 21:48
  And so Lessons in Heartbreak was almost a little bit of a personal challenge
• 21:52
  forme
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: where I went,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: normally I don't write a character with such a big medical trauma in her
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: background,
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: But it worked.
• 22:05
  When I started looking at the character of Ruby and saying,
• 22:10
  why would she be this way?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Why would she be so afraid of intimacy?
• 22:14
  Whywouldshehavegottentothispointinherlifeandnotfoundanysortof
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: intimacy or found somebody that she trusted enough
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so then it turns to, okay, I can come up with her backstory.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, she had a heart transplant when she was younger.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: That jives.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: It feels like it's going to carry through the whole story.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Why would she trust him though?
• 22:40
  So then you back up into it even further and say,
• 22:42
  okay,
• 22:43
  she knew him before.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: She just hasn't seen him in a long time.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: They were neighbors when they were younger.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: There has to be a reason why this person who's a little
• 22:53
  cynical a little skeptical armored protective very armored there's
• 22:58
  there'sgotto
• 22:58
  beareasonwhyshetruststhisguyanditcan'tjustbebecausehe'shotandhe
• 23:03
  hasasix-packandIneedhertoyeahthat'snotenoughformeasawriterlikeI
• 23:11
  really need to believe why these people are doing things and in order to do
• 23:15
  thatI
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: think they have to react like real people
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: and that really comes across because I was very immersed in the story.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's the one I came across and I was like, sure, I'll go here.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: And to me in a way,
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: and this is what I find amazing about romance,
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: often the synopsis in the cover,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: I almost feel like it doesn't even match the medicine that's in there,
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: the richness that's in there.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: The trope is just to get you across the threshold.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I was in it and I could feel the reality of it.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: I could feel I was invested in both of the characters very much.
• 23:58
  I usually feel like as I'm writing,
• 24:01
  there's just,
• 24:04
  I guess I view them as separate entities.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: I have like my writer brain and my writer gut.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: And by nature, I'm an overthinker.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: I overthink everything.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 24:19
  so I always plot out my story fully but as I'm writing it changes and I hit a
• 24:27
  point
• 24:27
  where it's like my gut is telling me oh this isn't quite right I'm not feeling
• 24:32
  this
• 24:32
  thewaythatIshouldit'salmostlikeIcaninstinctuallygaugeifIthinkmy
• 24:38
  readers are going to feel the same thing I'm feeling as I'm writing so it's
• 24:42
  likeif
• 24:44
  Idon'thitapointinthestorywhereIcryasI'mwritingsomething'swrong
• 24:50
  I'm not like clicking that story into place where maybe the readers are going
• 24:55
  to
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: feel that same level of emotional engagement that I want them to.
• 24:59
  And that's not to say that everyone cries every time they read my books
• 25:02
  because
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: that's a gauge,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 25:04
  Or there's a sliding scale of what makes people emotional and what makes
• 25:09
  peoplein
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: the same way that humor is very subjective.
• 25:13
  But I feel like I can usually get a gauge on whether that's going to happen or
• 25:19
  not.
• 25:20
  WhetherIthinkmyreadersaregoingtobuyinintheplacesthatIwantthemto
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: kind of feel that emotion.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I did earlier in my career.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I had that instinct.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe even for like the first four years that I was a published author.
• 25:39
  IthinkthatcamethelongerthatIwroteoflikereallybeingabletohearthat
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: gut instinct and listen to it.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: what you're saying is really interesting because I mean,
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: I've been thinking a lot about the body as a reader.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because what has also impressed me in reading stories,
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: especially romance,
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: how much the body is described,
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: the senses,
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: there's a sense of smell and touch.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: Everything's very heightened.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I've now been thinking a little bit more about the body as a reader.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do I feel?
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Do I cry?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Do I feel that chest tightened?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: Do I feel relaxed?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Do I feel awakened when I'm reading?
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Something in my body is being stirred as I read it.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: And do I feel giddy,
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: but now what you're describing,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: which brings into the other side,
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: the body of the writer,
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: it goes through you,
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: you have to have that gut,
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: you have to the emotion kind of runs through you.
• 26:40
  And then however the reader is going to take it,
• 26:43
  that's beyond your control.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: But in some ways,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like because it goes through your body,
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: the stories carry a resonance that is powerful because it's embodied.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's a real embodiment.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just caught on the plot, on the trope.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Something is embodied through you.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, it takes a lot of embodiment to get a story on the page.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: It does.
• 27:12
  And I always feel such a profound sense of relief when I hit that point that I
• 27:20
  feel
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: it when I'm writing.
• 27:23
  I can't tell you how many crying selfies I've sent to my couple of my author
• 27:28
  friends.
• 27:32
  You know,
• 27:32
  where I finally,
• 27:36
  my author coach calls it perfect character alignment,
• 27:39
  right?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: She's like,
• 27:40
  you can write a book that's probably a five star book that your readers love,
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: that they rave about.
• 27:47
  but it maybe just isn't clicked exactly into place in the way that you can feel
• 27:52
  it
• 27:52
  in your gut but when it happens it is absolutely a physical tangible
• 28:00
  experiencefor
• 28:01
  me when that happens unfortunately it always happens very late in the
• 28:07
  processand
• 28:08
  it's usually at the end of revisions when I've already put an astronomical
• 28:12
  amount
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: of work into the book where something happens and I go oh
• 28:17
  that's it that's what I was missing like I just something had to click
• 28:23
  slightly
• 28:23
  intoplaceandIfeelitlikeIImeanIwillbesittingatmydesklikepumpingmy
• 28:32
  fist into the air when that happens and it's like this high almost like I call
• 28:38
  it
• 28:38
  writer's high in the same way that runners experience runners high because
• 28:42
  itjust
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: feels like this complete
• 28:48
  dopamine hit when it happens but oh I absolutely physically feel my books
• 28:55
  yeahwell
• 28:59
  I would say it's good because as the reader the readers can pick up on that in
• 29:04
  some
• 29:05
  capacity unconsciously it's like the unconscious is traveling through you
• 29:09
  knowum
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: well but and
• 29:13
  There's so many questions I'm thinking here because you already touched on
• 29:16
  howthe
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: books come to you.
• 29:18
  But I guess a little maybe backing up a bit when you started you because you
• 29:23
  just
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: mentioned like I'm not so sure I did that in the beginning.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: How did you get into writing and what kind of sort of spurred you on?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: What was that decisive moment?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I have had the interest of telling stories as far back as high school.
• 29:43
  Like I can remember sitting down and writing little stories that we would
• 29:49
  probably,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 29:51
  at the time I didn't even know that there was something called fan fiction,
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 29:55
  And it would have been me inserting myself into like a fan fiction of a story
• 30:00
  thatIlovedor
• 30:02
  youknowI'mmeetingacelebritythatIhaveacrushonorsomethinglikethat
• 30:05
  right like self insert fan fiction where I didn't know what I was doing I
• 30:11
  didn'tI
• 30:12
  didn'tknowhowtobuildastoryorthestructureofastoryandthatcontinued
• 30:17
  through college post-college where I'd get ideas I can even picture covers
• 30:25
  or
• 30:27
  you know the the zoomed out version of what the story was supposed to be and I
• 30:31
  just
• 30:31
  didn'tknowwhattodowithitIdidn'tIcouldwritemaybeachapterandIjust
• 30:35
  stall and it was when I was pregnant with my oldest son and he's about to turn 14
• 30:41
  I
• 30:43
  was pregnant with him and I read a book about writing a book never done that
• 30:51
  before
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: and
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: It was,
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure it's still for sale somewhere,
• 30:57
  but it was written by a romance author that I'd read before and she used to
• 31:01
  write
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: sports romance way back in the day.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: Her name was Christy Craig and I loved her sports romances.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: They were so just tropey and fun and I just blow through one,
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: in a day and I just loved them.
• 31:17
  And it was like the everything guide to writing a romance novel,
• 31:20
  I think is what it was called.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: And in that book,
• 31:24
  itwasthefirsttimethatIreadabouthowtoplotabookandathree-act
• 31:31
  structure and putting Post-its on a poster board to try to see your story play
• 31:39
  out.
• 31:40
  And it was like something just clicked in my brain where I've been trying to
• 31:45
  write
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: a book without plotting it.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I am not a pantser.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: I have to have the structure of the book
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: before I sit down to write everything.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: Specifically,
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: I have to get through some people call it,
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: the climax,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: the black moment,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: the long dark night,
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: whatever you want to call it.
• 32:03
  I have to know what's going to get us there and what's going to trigger that
• 32:07
  moment
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: in order to start chapter one.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: And as soon as I did that,
• 32:14
  I had the ability to start writing and move past like a scene or a chapter.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: So when I was on maternity leave, I was like, what else am I going to do?
• 32:25
  I'm just sitting here with this baby who can't talk to me and he's not crawling
• 32:29
  anywhere.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I might as well.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to be home for 12 weeks,
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: because I took my full maternity leave for my job at the time.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that was how I started writing my first book.
• 32:43
  And it took me a long time to write my first book because then I got pregnant
• 32:47
  with
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: my second when my first was six months old.
• 32:50
  that was not intentional that was a great big surprise in life so I had two kids
• 32:55
  in
• 32:55
  14monthsandittookmeayearandahalftowritethatfirstbookbutonceIwas
• 33:04
  inthatanditwasaseriesaboutthreebestfriendsthreefemalefriendsandI
• 33:11
  remember getting to the end of the second book and I was having a conversation
• 33:16
  with
• 33:17
  mybestfriendyouknowwe'vebeenfriendssinceshewas15Iwas16I'minmy40s
• 33:23
  soit'sbeenalongtimerightyeahandsheaskedmewhatareyougoingtodowith
• 33:28
  these books like you've got two books now what are you going to do and I was
• 33:32
  trying
• 33:32
  to pitch to you know query agents and all that sort of stuff indie publishing
• 33:38
  was
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: still so new that many years ago and I remember saying to her
• 33:47
  well I have to write the third book because I would feel like I was
• 33:52
  disappointing
• 33:53
  LizifIdidn'twriteherstoryandshekindofyouknowmadethislikeohlike
• 34:00
  kind of this shocked face and I hadn't even realized what I said that I
• 34:06
  genuinely
• 34:07
  felt like I would be letting someone down if I didn't write her story too where
• 34:13
  she
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: felt real to me like it felt like
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: I would not be doing the right thing if I let her story stay untold.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it was the first moment I remember feeling like,
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: wow,
• 34:28
  this is pretty telling that I feel this way about a fictional person when
• 34:34
  nobody's
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: read these other books,
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was just me at that point.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that's never gone away.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: If anything, it just...
• 34:44
  has gotten amplified the longer that I've written where I'll finish a series
• 34:51
  andI
• 34:52
  still remember it was like my second series it was a five book series about a
• 34:58
  group
• 34:58
  ofguyfriendsitwaslikefiveguyfriendsandIhadonestoryIwasteasing
• 35:03
  through the whole series this guy who'd been in love with he'd been in love
• 35:09
  with
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: her forever right like kind of like a love at first sight sort of thing
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: and he was the quiet one of the group and he was really steady and solid.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: And when I finished writing that fifth book, I was sobbing.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 35:23
  my husband came into the living room because I didn't have an office in our
• 35:25
  house
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: at the time.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, are you okay?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 35:29
  because he found me just weeping on the couch when Tristan and Anna are
• 35:34
  finally
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: together.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just so happy.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like I felt like I'd accomplished something
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: in real life of getting these two people together.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that's, I don't know.
• 35:50
  It's just how I've always viewed my characters that even when they take over
• 35:53
  the
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: story or I discover something about them in the,
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: the process of writing,
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: like that's always been there from the beginning.
• 36:02
  IjustthinkImaybedolikeabetterjoboflisteningtothatgutinstinctnow
• 36:07
  than I did at the beginning when I first started writing however many years
• 36:11
  ago.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: I love your description.
• 36:15
  In my mind right now,
• 36:16
  I'm thinking,
• 36:16
  oh,
• 36:16
  my God,
• 36:17
  she's like a shaman,
• 36:19
  you know,
• 36:19
  this character.
• 36:22
  There's this concept of the imaginal world,
• 36:25
  you know,
• 36:26
  where it's not this world.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's not another world.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of an in-between world.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: And as you're describing your relationship with the characters,
• 36:34
  I'm thinking about the imaginal where that's why I'm always so interested
• 36:39
  abouthow
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: do authors bring in the characters in?
• 36:44
  and and apparently Tolkien did that he felt the story was given to him and the
• 36:52
  way
• 36:52
  you're describing it to me feels like you tap into that world and and when you
• 36:57
  said
• 36:57
  the characters are they are their own entity and I feel that I feel like
• 37:02
  characters
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: they're coming from another place they're coming from this imaginary
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: and the author is the channel,
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: the channel,
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: the vessel that is,
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: working like back to the water vessel.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's working through you and you bring it out.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: You help them be embodied into this world in the form of a book.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then the reader then interacts with them in a different way.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: They become...
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: lived alive entities in a reader's life,
• 37:34
  especially when that's why I think it resonates so much when certain
• 37:37
  characters
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: become so big,
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: in the collective imagination.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I'm thinking when you when you're describing that,
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: I was like,
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: my God,
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: she's really sort of going to the imaginal world and bringing them in,
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: sort of helping them be birthed over here.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting that you feel like.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it feels like labor sometimes as I'm writing the book.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting your origin story with it as well,
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: that you had just birthed your first child and you've gone through that.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: And now and then you channel the characters in.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the vessel was ready.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: It was tested.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it brought a human being.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: Now it can bring other beings.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: What I'm curious here is
• 38:25
  Mainly because what I've really stood out to me in your work is how you write
• 38:29
  the masculine.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: And in light of the currents,
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: not just the current,
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: but it seems really poignant now,
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: the situation of very bad examples of the masculine,
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: let's just say,
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: showing how much healing the masculine needs to do.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: Not that the feminine doesn't,
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: but definitely because I like your I really appreciate the depth of the
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: juxtaposition of your male and female characters.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: I feel that your female characters are not there to fix the male.
• 39:03
  They both have their own wounds and they're just alchemically sort of
• 39:08
  working it out together.
• 39:11
  But what stood out to me and I really appreciate your male characters is the
• 39:15
  depths
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: in which they bring.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then I feel like you're right.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: You're feminine that way, too.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: But the masculine stood out to me.
• 39:25
  Tellmealittlebitmoreabouthowyouwhat'stheinspirationforthemale
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: characters you you're bringing forth,
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: especially because they are in a hyper masculine environment of sports,
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: especially the ones I read football.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, this is this is just great.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: This is the medicine we need right now.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I love that.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: I love that juxtaposition of the job that they do,
• 39:50
  which is so public facing and they have to create a brand of themselves
• 39:58
  almost.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: But at the end of the day, they're still just normal people.
• 40:03
  They're still just people who do extraordinary jobs that are a lot more
• 40:08
  publicthan
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: the rest of us.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I also think there's an element of when you watch...
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: maybe behind the scenes stuff of sports or whatever.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: And we watch a lot of sports in my house.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, my boys love sports and love football.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I do too.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: I was raised watching it.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I write it because it's my favorite sport to watch.
• 40:28
  There's this element of watching football players where it's like they tap
• 40:33
  into
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: something childlike that they get to do.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean that in a positive way, right?
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, where
• 40:41
  they're playing this game for a living which is very physically demanding
• 40:45
  andit
• 40:45
  takes a toll on their life but they do get to access something that usually we
• 40:53
  only
• 40:53
  do as kids like the play element that they have but to me it just doesn't erase
• 41:02
  and
• 41:02
  I think that goes back to kind of that empathetic thinking of trying to
• 41:06
  understand
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: people where
• 41:11
  That public part of their job or the hyper-masculine or even the pressure
• 41:16
  that'son
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: them from the amount of money that they make or whatever,
• 41:18
  it doesn't negate the fact that they could be going through really horrible
• 41:24
  things
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: or have gone through horrible things.
• 41:26
  Ithinkweseealotoffootballplayersmorewillingnowtotalkaboutmental
• 41:30
  health struggles that they've had or struggling with depression or anxiety
• 41:34
  or
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: whatever or coming from really broken homes.
• 41:40
  I have always found the male point of view easier to write than the female
• 41:43
  pointof
• 41:44
  view actually I'm not sure what that says about me but I actually feel like
• 41:49
  it's
• 41:49
  easierformetopretendtobesomethingdifferentwiththemalepointofview
• 41:56
  whereas with the female I have to kind of try not to channel my own turn of
• 42:01
  phrase
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: or the way that I think or it's a little too close perhaps you know
• 42:06
  it'salittletoocloseperhapsandandsoI'vealwaysfoundthatmalepointof
• 42:11
  viewlikeIcouldwriteapiningmaleherofortherestofmycareerandIjustdo
• 42:16
  that for every single book and get away with it I would do it in a heartbeat
• 42:21
  that's
• 42:21
  justmyfavoritethingtowriteandIalwaysfeellikeIcanreallyjustdigmy
• 42:27
  handsintoitinawaywhereIlosemyselfinthatcharacterreallyeasilyum
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: You did that really well.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: I the one that when I wrote him,
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: I just felt like was when I wrote the best of all,
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: which was Liam.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 42:51
  That man lived in my head like he was screaming into my brain with a megaphone
• 42:59
  up to his mouth.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like I just I heard him so clearly.
• 43:03
  IknewexactlyhowhewantedtosoundinmyheadIyouknowthewaythatheloved
• 43:10
  her I mean it was like I very rarely have an easy writing experience but Liam
• 43:16
  was
• 43:16
  ascloseasIprobablygottoaneasywritingexperiencewhenitcametohis
• 43:21
  characterandyoudidsaytomeandIthinkashortquickexchangeonInstagram
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: that he was the inspiration was Roy Kent from 100%
• 43:32
  andIwaslikeonceyousaidIwaslikeohmygodittotallyisandhe'sgreatand
• 43:38
  that's he takes it to the bookstore winner winner winner that's universal
• 43:44
  fantasy
• 43:45
  that's that's like channeling those moments where it's like come on we all
• 43:49
  want
• 43:50
  thattoacertainyouknowwhatImeanwhereheknowsexactlywhatisgoingto
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: speak to her heart um
• 43:57
  yeahRoyKenttomeisoneofthebestcharactersthat'scomeontelevisionina
• 44:02
  reallylongtimeyeahumandIjustlovedthatshowingeneralIlovedTedLasso
• 44:09
  I'msoexcitedforittocomebackumI'malreadylikenobodytalkedtomeon
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: August 5 because I'm busy I'm busy um but
• 44:23
  I think that's another thing where I wish I had like a clear cut answer where
• 44:27
  they
• 44:27
  comefrominmyheadandIdon'tIfeellikethey'rejustthereandIgettoknow
• 44:35
  them better as I'm writing them where my author coach who I work with and she
• 44:43
  bases
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: her coaching on CliftonStrengths right so everybody you're taking your
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: CliftonStrengths test and then she's working with people
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: to embrace your process based on how your own brain works.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're not trying to work like someone else's process.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:59
  And my number one strength is relator,
• 45:02
  which is very closely tied to like trust.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a very tight circle of people that I trust.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I do enjoy getting to know and understand other people.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: And but my characters, it like takes me a while to kind of break through
• 45:22
  maybe that first kind of surface level that shallow introduction of here's
• 45:28
  the
• 45:28
  skeleton here's the block of clay that I'm pushing towards the story and I
• 45:33
  haveto
• 45:33
  kind of carve out what's underneath it as I'm writing it doesn't necessarily
• 45:38
  make
• 45:39
  for the most enjoyable first draft experience when I'm when I'm writing I
• 45:44
  usually
• 45:44
  suffer greatly writing the first draft if anything else like I'm pretty
• 45:48
  miserable
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: uh
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: as I'm writing the first attempt at the story.
• 45:54
  But then once I kind of break through that and I get to know them,
• 45:57
  it just feels like magic.
• 46:01
  Like there's just no other way to describe it where I know exactly when it's
• 46:07
  right.
• 46:07
  I know exactly when it's working and when I've kind of figured out something
• 46:11
  about
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: those characters that needed to be figured out.
• 46:15
  and I think when it comes to the men and the trauma maybe that informs who they
• 46:22
  are
• 46:22
  as characters I would be lying if I said I didn't think through this is a
• 46:32
  sweeping
• 46:32
  generalization and I know that not every reader is like this and I would say a
• 46:38
  lot
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: of readers aren't but there's a huge
• 46:43
  percentage of the population of romance readers that they are way harder on
• 46:48
  the
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: female main character than they are on the male main character.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: And this is even people who would be like, I'm a feminist in my ideology.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: Let's burn down the patriarchy.
• 46:59
  They say that with their whole chest and they are still going to be harder on
• 47:05
  the
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: female protagonist than they are on the male protagonist,
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: She's a doormat
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: for waiting around for him, but he's a pining hero that we love.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: She's emotional and moody,
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: but he's like tortured and,
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 47:22
  like he could kick puppies and we'd probably find a reason to love it because,
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: and I think that's just so deeply ingrained in
• 47:34
  and I don't know if it's because we relate more to the female protagonist if
• 47:38
  we're
• 47:38
  reading it you know if we're reading those books I'm not sure and I'm not
• 47:42
  saying
• 47:43
  that I'm not guilty of it sometimes too maybe it feels too true to life and we
• 47:48
  can
• 47:48
  separate ourselves a little bit more from the male main character so I do
• 47:52
  think
• 47:53
  about that when I'm crafting my story sometimes where there's usually one
• 47:58
  character
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: that has to kind of
• 48:01
  carry the bulk of the weight when it comes to needing an emotional arc I think
• 48:06
  when
• 48:06
  you have two that have equal amounts of growth to do sometimes it can get a
• 48:10
  little
• 48:10
  cumbersomeinthestoryumandtheimpactisalittlebitlessenedthere'sa
• 48:15
  plotting technique called the nutshell technique and it talks about that
• 48:18
  likeyou
• 48:18
  should really have one character in the story who's got the bulk of the growth
• 48:23
  to
• 48:23
  doitdoesn'tmeanthatyourotheronedoesn'torthatthere'snotchangethat
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: needs to happen um
• 48:30
  And I am cognizant of that as I'm writing of just that generalization of my
• 48:37
  readers
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: are going to be harder on her than they are on him.
• 48:41
  And I still have to answer all the same questions about why does she do what she
• 48:47
  does?
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: Why does she react this way?
• 48:50
  But I might give him just a little bit more baggage to overcome throughout the
• 48:58
  story.
• 48:59
  because I know that they're probably going to give him a little bit more
• 49:03
  grace.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I could see that in having read so many.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: I can see your female characters to me stood out in there.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: They feel whole.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: Even their issues that they're bringing up feel real.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think they're a good match.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I can see that the male is the one that's carrying more baggage.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: In some ways, he's the main character.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a good question,
• 49:30
  a good point you make about as a lot of readers perhaps being harder on the
• 49:35
  female
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: character.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: I have found that even in myself.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why do I have a harder time liking the female character?
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm easier on the male character.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's a there's a PhD waiting to happen right there.
• 49:49
  Just on that question alone,
• 49:51
  we would need a different podcast,
• 49:53
  a different podcast.
• 49:55
  This is this could be a real interesting question to ask for several authors
• 49:59
  and readers.
• 50:01
  But I think sometimes what's happening is perhaps the female character is
• 50:04
  too close to us.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: We are projecting very quickly onto the character.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then perhaps we're judging, well, I wouldn't do that.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't, you know, X, Y, and Z.
• 50:16
  And the male character becomes this,
• 50:20
  I think,
• 50:20
  not just a fantasy of what we wish.
• 50:25
  The reason I'm thinking a lot about romance as medicine is because I think
• 50:29
  because
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: it activates so much in us as readers,
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: and it is the genre that holds a lot,
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: even though it doesn't get the
• 50:40
  The limelight as much is that perhaps with it with these stories there's a
• 50:46
  hidden
• 50:46
  unconscious healing happening between the male and the female so I think
• 50:49
  whenwe
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: see the male transforming having corrective experience.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: Dealing with their vulnerability,
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: with their trauma coming,
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 50:59
  andthat'swhyyourstorystoodoutbecausethesearecharactersinavery
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: masculine environment.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: When we see that,
• 51:07
  IthinkitcreatesinusasenseofhopeandperhapsstillIfeelunconscious
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: rehearsal where the healing can happen.
• 51:19
  that's why I was seeing these times where the masculine the feminine are
• 51:22
  reallyat
• 51:23
  at odds and so pronounced seeing male characters that transform becomes I
• 51:31
  mean
• 51:32
  definitely medicine to me but also very hopeful I really wish men would read
• 51:37
  your
• 51:37
  booksumIwouldIwishtheywouldreaditandbeabletoabsorbalotofthingsin
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: romance to be perfectly honest because um
• 51:49
  there'ssomuchofitwhereatitscorerightit'slikewealljustwanttobe
• 51:57
  loved and respected and seen by someone who's who's willing to meet us where
• 52:04
  weare
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: and move forward together right like
• 52:10
  IinthesamewaythatlikeIcan'tfixmyhusbandyouknowwithwhateverissues
• 52:16
  he's going through and vice versa he can't fix me but to be seen and understood
• 52:22
  and
• 52:22
  respected and supported like that's all we all ever want and I think that's
• 52:26
  why
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: women gravitate towards romance so much is because like we
• 52:34
  that's all we want like it's such it seems like such a simple concept that's
• 52:38
  very
• 52:39
  hardinexecutionandIyouknowandinmyownreallifeyouknowmyobviously
• 52:48
  without getting into a whole other hours worth of conversation like my
• 52:53
  husbandisa
• 52:53
  cycle breaker within his family in terms of like family trauma that happened
• 52:59
  andso
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: I get a front row seat to someone who
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: is like,
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 53:06
  I'm not going to be somebody who's going to tell my boys they're not allowed to
• 53:11
  cry
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: or feel their emotions or anything like that.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to do that.
• 53:20
  That is something that I get a front row seat to in my life,
• 53:23
  which I'm very fortunate for that.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that in and of itself of seeing men be
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: be willing to admit where they can do better and then actually do better.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of the ultimate universal fantasy for a reader, right?
• 53:42
  Like that's what we want is I don't think anybody is expecting perfection.
• 53:48
  And I don't think romance gives readers this assumption of perfection in
• 53:53
  their
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: life,
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: that that's what we're really searching for.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think it allows us to believe that people can
• 54:01
  See where they've done wrong Take accountability for that And then we try to
• 54:05
  get
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: better together Right?
• 54:08
  That's ultimate universal fantasy to me In terms of like healthy
• 54:12
  communicationAnd
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: building a solid relationship
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because in many ways, I think it is an absolute healing arc.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: You start broken, if you will.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: There's a problem.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: There's an issue.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: You can't communicate.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: This is not quite going right.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then you meet another.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's a catalyst.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: So the love is a catalyst.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: And you go through all the trials and tribulations,
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_01: the breakup,
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: the separation,
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: all that,
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: that my husband was asking me,
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: what's with the breakup?
• 54:42
  You know,
• 54:42
  because I jokingly say,
• 54:43
  oh,
• 54:43
  100 pages before the end,
• 54:45
  they're going to break up.
• 54:46
  andhe'slikewhat'swiththebreakupandIsaidwellIthinkinmanywaysthe
• 54:50
  breakup is whatever was not quite right in the foundation of that
• 54:55
  relationship
• 54:56
  needstosortofcomeundonesothatwhentheydocometogetherthenit'smuch
• 55:00
  stronger you know whatever is the last layer of the armor and then the
• 55:05
  alchemical
• 55:07
  union right comes in and I think to call romance childish because it's
• 55:12
  predictive
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_01: or such it's a disservice because
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: As a reader,
• 55:18
  you're going through that whole journey and something within you is
• 55:21
  startingto
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: shift as well,
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: depending on how deep you want to read those books.
• 55:26
  And collectively,
• 55:27
  I think it speaks to something that isn't just a female fantasy.
• 55:33
  I think it's needed in this time in these times of collective transformation
• 55:38
  lots
• 55:39
  too much happening on from all fronts right and I and I feel that romance
• 55:44
  teaches
• 55:44
  us that transformation is possible there's hope and the coming together
• 55:49
  comesinso
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: I do think romance authors like yourself are doing
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: Three layers of work.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_01: You're writing a story that inspires you.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: You're writing something that perhaps the current fashion wants.
• 56:06
  You know,
• 56:06
  that's the maybe it's the kind of story that's selling and people are
• 56:10
  resonating with.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: But at a much deeper level, it's shamanic.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a deeper medicine to the collective.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so kudos to you bursting the books and struggling.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I think perhaps for you feel so cathartic as well.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it feels very cathartic.
• 56:28
  And it's that moment at the end where everything clicks into place where I'm
• 56:34
  like,
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: this is why I do this job.
• 56:37
  Because in those other moments,
• 56:38
  and I mean,
• 56:39
  it's like clockwork when I have those meltdowns.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I will,
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 56:46
  my husband and my kids have seen me come out of my office crying more times than
• 56:51
  I
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_00: cared to admit.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, this is it.
• 56:54
  thisisthebookthat'sgonnabreakmeIcan'tfigureitoutIdidyouknowImean
• 56:59
  it happens every book and I am always convinced that it's really like I'm not
• 57:04
  gonna
• 57:05
  getontotheothersideofthisoneyouknowandtheydoaverygoodjobofjust
• 57:11
  listening to my meltdown and it's always right on the cusp of that where I have
• 57:15
  a
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: like this this flicker of a thought
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: where I go, oh, wait a minute.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then I kind of start like writing notes.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then I have a realization about something where,
• 57:28
  and it's always right on the heels of this really big existential meltdown
• 57:34
  about
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: why am I voluntarily putting myself through this?
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: This is certifiable.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I shouldn't go back to detail or whatever, you know.
• 57:47
  And then I have that moment where everything clicks into place and there's
• 57:51
  just
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: nothing like it.
• 57:52
  I mean,
• 57:53
  there's there's nothing that feels like that,
• 57:55
  but it's absolutely cathartic.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I can admit sometimes when I think of story ideas,
• 58:00
  it's literally because I just feel like it's going to make me feel better to
• 58:03
  write
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: that story.
• 58:06
  You know,
• 58:06
  where I that sounds like a good outlet to me to write that to write that story.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's deeply therapeutic.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: in a way that the origin of the word is a service to the gods,
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: it's a service to something bigger.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: it's like you have a you come to the dark night of the soul and then,
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: the sun rises again.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: You add it.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:31
  And to be to be honest,
• 58:33
  I don't always have a third act breakup in my book.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like you talk about the break.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: You don't.
• 58:38
  ThebreakupisabigpointofcontentioninthereaderworldbecauseIthink
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: there's a lot of new readers who do not want that.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: They don't want the third act breakup.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I would argue they don't want a poorly written third act breakup.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: I agree, yeah.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: The conflict feels contrived or it comes out of nowhere.
• 58:59
  I think when they read a well-done third-act breakup,
• 59:02
  they don't even think about it.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: They just enjoy the story and the journey of getting that.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I was pleased to notice in your books, you don't have that.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_01: It makes sense.
• 59:10
  Whatever the challenging conflict that really kind of brings it in,
• 59:14
  it makes sense to the flow.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't like the poorly written one.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, here it comes.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: I can see it a mile away.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: And if I write like a slow burn...
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: The climax of the story,
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_00: what you're building to is not a breakup,
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: it's literally the decision to be together.
• 59:31
  And you have to kind of go through,
• 59:33
  which is why those are fun to write sometimes.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_00: and those are enjoyable in a different way,
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_00: because it's a different sort of challenge of,
• 59:41
  can I build their chemistry intention in a way that feels realistic and
• 59:46
  believable?
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 59:48
  but I also believe why I'm torturing my reader and making them wait until 95%
• 59:52
  of
• 59:53
  the book before these two people kiss and you just want to like shove their
• 59:57
  heads
• 59:58
  togetherlikejustkissalreadyyouknowsocloseandthenohgoodtheyget
• 1:00:03
  interrupted yeah and that's what happened in you know the other twin in
• 1:00:08
  Barrett's
• 1:00:08
  bookwhereyesthatwasaslowburnthatwasaslowburnbecauseIwenttomy
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: editor and I said I kind of want to write a grumpy grumpy
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's not Grumpy Sunshine.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think they're both kind of going to be grumps.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_00: I know people don't do that very often.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_00: And she's so great.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, you write whatever you want.
• 1:00:30
  You know,
• 1:00:31
  your job is just to write the best Carlos Oranson book possible.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to write a Grumpy Grumpy, let's do it.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so I knew...
• 1:00:40
  like with that sort of story the only thing that feels believable to me is when
• 1:00:44
  you
• 1:00:44
  have two really guarded characters that have legitimate reason to be
• 1:00:49
  guardedthey
• 1:00:50
  aregonnawaititisgoingtotakealongtimeforthemtotrusteachotherandI
• 1:00:58
  love writing that my readers get mad at me a little bit when I write those
• 1:01:02
  stories
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_00: because when I say it's a slow burn
• 1:01:05
  they know they know I'm gonna I mean it I'm not you know saying like slow burn
• 1:01:10
  but
• 1:01:10
  they kiss at 50% no I'm probably gonna make you wait until the last 10% of the
• 1:01:14
  book
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: but
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: I really,
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_01: having met him in the previous book,
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: Lessons in Heartbreak,
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_01: I was like,
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: am I going to like him?
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_01: He's real grump.
• 1:01:25
  And then I read it and I was like,
• 1:01:27
  oh,
• 1:01:28
  it's hard to choose because I was team Griffin.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was like, oh, I can't because they're archetypally.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_01: They're amazing as twins.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_01: They're perfect foils.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I do like a grump grump.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a breath of fresh air,
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_01: because it feels more realistic,
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_01: for real life,
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_01: I suppose,
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_01: to a certain degree,
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_01: to see guarded people coming together.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so speaking of that, like you mentioned, your readers a little bit
• 1:02:01
  you know when they find you when they speak to you not just not the reviews per
• 1:02:06
  se
• 1:02:07
  butlikewhentheymeetyouortheyDMyouwhatdoyouthinkthey'rewhatdothey
• 1:02:12
  tendtotellyouaboutyourbooksIthinkIhearalotaboutgriefandlosswhen
• 1:02:21
  they message me because that's such a prominent theme in my books to begin
• 1:02:25
  withand
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_00: that's something that I really
• 1:02:28
  when I realized that was one of the themes that kind of unconsciously kept
• 1:02:33
  popping
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: up over and over in my books.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I learned about the concept of writing to your id, right?
• 1:02:41
  Like the ego,
• 1:02:42
  the super ego and writing to your id is like picking out this list of themes,
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_00: that just kind of unconsciously keep popping up in your books.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_00: You maybe didn't intend it.
• 1:02:55
  It might be little moments or microtropes that you really tend to gravitate
• 1:02:59
  to.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it's more big picture themes.
• 1:03:02
  AndgriefandlosswasoneofthoseformethatIdidn'tnecessarilymakea
• 1:03:08
  conscious choice to start working that in as a theme over and over in my books.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_00: But it just happened the longer that I did it.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's because my brain liked it.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_00: My writer brain enjoyed digging into,
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 1:03:24
  why do certain people react certain ways or even how do people react
• 1:03:29
  differentlyto
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_00: the same loss?
• 1:03:32
  Like my Ward Sisters series,
• 1:03:35
  which was kind of my quote unquote breakout series.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose if you had to call anything,
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_00: that's really where my reader base expanded exponentially.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_00: It was...
• 1:03:46
  you know the theme of maternal abandonment right like their mother left them
• 1:03:50
  when
• 1:03:50
  they were young and so you have four sisters who went through the same
• 1:03:55
  experience
• 1:03:56
  but they all reacted to it very differently and it showed up differently
• 1:04:01
  laterin
• 1:04:03
  their lives that wound of their mother leaving them so I hear a lot about loss
• 1:04:10
  and
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_00: grief for people when they message me
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that doesn't bother me.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't make me uncomfortable.
• 1:04:21
  It means a lot to me when people are willing to talk about their experiences
• 1:04:27
  with
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_00: losing a parent or losing a spouse or whatever it was.
• 1:04:33
  You know,
• 1:04:34
  in previous to working full time as a writer,
• 1:04:37
  I worked for a hospice.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so I loved it.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like I loved...
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_00: working there.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_00: I loved being in our hospice residence.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_00: Before I had kids, I volunteered there one night a week.
• 1:04:54
  And I,
• 1:04:54
  you know,
• 1:04:55
  my dog at the time,
• 1:04:56
  I had him certified as a therapy dog.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so we'd go and visit people.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_00: And like, I loved it.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't depressing to me.
• 1:05:03
  It wasn't like it really is kind of a beautiful,
• 1:05:10
  bittersweetpartoflifewhen
• 1:05:13
  you're in a situation where like everybody knows what's happening we know
• 1:05:17
  whatis
• 1:05:18
  goingtocomefromtheendofthisandit'sthatanticipatorygriefthatis
• 1:05:23
  different than sudden death or a shocking death or something like that right
• 1:05:30
  andso
• 1:05:31
  Ihearalotaboutgriefandlossfrompeopleandthatmeansalottomewhenthey
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_00: are willing to tell me their stories um
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_00: After Lessons in Heartbreak came out,
• 1:05:46
  I had a woman message me and she was a reviewer who I've interacted with on
• 1:05:50
  social
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_00: media numerous times.
• 1:05:53
  And she reached out to me just telling me how much that book meant to her
• 1:05:59
  because
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_00: her husband had a double lung transplant.
• 1:06:06
  AndhetriedtobreakupwithherfortheexactsamereasonthatRubytriedto
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_00: break up with Griffin.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 1:06:13
  and she said it was like you were writing us like you were writing our story and
• 1:06:17
  it
• 1:06:18
  just felt so real and the things that she thought were the things that he
• 1:06:23
  thought
• 1:06:24
  and she said I had 10 wonderful years with him you know before he passed away
• 1:06:30
  andI
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_00: don't want to even cry thinking about it because it's like you
• 1:06:39
  you do forget sometimes that when you're writing these stories like the
• 1:06:43
  peoplewho
• 1:06:43
  arereadingthemmayhavegonethroughsomethingexactlylikethatI'mnot
• 1:06:47
  necessarily thinking about that as I'm writing these stories right I'm just
• 1:06:52
  trying
• 1:06:52
  toanswerquestionsformycharactersinawaythatIfeellikeIcansupportan
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_00: entire book with it but it's that to me is the most
• 1:07:04
  rewarding part of doing a job that really can twist you into a lot of mental
• 1:07:09
  knots.
• 1:07:13
  When you feel like your story hits home for people who've gone through
• 1:07:17
  something like that.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad you said that also about your working in hospice,
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_01: because I fell into reading romance out of grief and burnout.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_01: Romance was not the genre I tended to gravitate towards.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_01: It was always sort of nonfiction.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_01: And my, you know, my mother died in 2024.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_01: I was burned out from being a mental health coach and I was exhausted.
• 1:07:45
  And the only thing that kind of grabbed me that I could hold on to is reading
• 1:07:49
  romance.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I could totally see the medicine in it.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_01: And now that you express your experience,
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_01: I can see it because in reading the way you write grief,
• 1:08:00
  IfelthavingworkedwithclientsonthatandliveditIfelthowembodieditis
• 1:08:09
  howrealitisandanabsolutemasterclassinitIfeelsoifIwastogivea
• 1:08:16
  course on reading romance I'd definitely pick your books it's okay
• 1:08:20
  definitelylet's
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_01: work on some of these here
• 1:08:23
  Because I thought it was really well done,
• 1:08:26
  having had both sides of the experience.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it shows that being in hospice, working with that translated.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm thankful for that.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_00: I miss it.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot about that whole experience that I do really enjoy.
• 1:08:45
  MissandIIenjoyedtremendouslyit'sjustyouknowthisisthisiswhatIfeel
• 1:08:53
  calledtodoImeanthisisumsoasmuchasImissthatlikeIIcan'tever
• 1:09:00
  imagine I can't picture myself doing anything else than this no matter how
• 1:09:06
  muchit
• 1:09:06
  twistsmeintoknotsorhowhowmiserablethosefirstdraftsareyouknowfora
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_00: while
• 1:09:15
  it's such a mind trip and I've talked about this with my husband where when I'm
• 1:09:21
  in
• 1:09:21
  a week that's maybe really hard and it just feels like pulling teeth to get
• 1:09:25
  every
• 1:09:25
  singleworddownyouknowit'syouknowit'slikebutwouldyoueverwanttodo
• 1:09:31
  anything else like no no like not there's it's not even a question in my mind
• 1:09:36
  that
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_00: like this is the hardest I've ever worked at any job
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it has taken the most from me of anything I've ever done.
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't ever want to do anything else.
• 1:09:47
  And I think that's often how you know you're probably where you're supposed
• 1:09:51
  to be.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_00: You can say that and mean it.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_01: I sometimes think of that image.
• 1:09:58
  Jacob's,
• 1:09:59
  you know,
• 1:10:00
  he's wrestling with the angel at night in the darkness.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel as a creative, sometimes we're wrestling with that.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_01: We're wrestling with something.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's us.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we are.
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then the light of day comes through.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really powerful, but it translates into your work, you know.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we're grateful for that.
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_01: I know we're sort of coming towards the end.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, so much.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_01: We could have hours of this.
• 1:10:25
  I would just extend if you ever want to come back,
• 1:10:27
  I would love to have you again.
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_01: I know you have some more books coming out that I'm already.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_01: There's one in particular that you mentioned.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_01: He's British and I'm already signing up for that one.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, my amnesia book.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Your amnesia book.
• 1:10:42
  So like for an example,
• 1:10:43
  something like that,
• 1:10:44
  how does the idea come out,
• 1:10:46
  come up for you?
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_00: I have over the years, I've read books and seen movies with that trope.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_00: And in truth, you just don't see it a lot in romance.
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's not one that comes up often.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 1:11:04
  IjustwantedtotryIwantedtoseeifIcoulddoitIwantedtoseeifIcould
• 1:11:09
  takemyspinonitandwhenIpitchedittomyeditoryouknowIwaslikeI'mnot
• 1:11:17
  sure she's gonna want to go for this because I typically write in
• 1:11:21
  interconnected
• 1:11:22
  standalonesandyouknowkindoflikeallowtheworldtobuildonitselfandit
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_00: wasn't sports it you know and so I wasn't and she right away was like
• 1:11:33
  yeah I want you to write an amnesia book are you kidding me then I just had to
• 1:11:38
  wait
• 1:11:38
  fortherighttimeinmyscheduleandyouknowgetthroughlet'sdothisseries
• 1:11:43
  first and then this and you know you're kind of piecing it together that way
• 1:11:47
  but
• 1:11:48
  and I realized as I was writing it there's not a lot of them because it's hard
• 1:11:53
  it's
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_00: really hard to write an amnesia story yeah
• 1:11:57
  canyouimagineIcursedmyownambitionquiteafewtimesinthepastwriting
• 1:12:02
  you're like Carla why did you do this to yourself why did I choose this but it
• 1:12:08
  was
• 1:12:08
  afunchallengeandIamverygladthatIwroteitbutit'salsoaandthisisjust
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_00: a personal thing like I actually hate flashbacks in a book I hate them
• 1:12:22
  Idon'titisoneofthefewit'swhyof35booksI'vewrittennowIhaveonly
• 1:12:28
  SPEAKER_00: written two second chance romance books.
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that is because it's my least favorite trope.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't like flashbacks.
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_00: I've read them where they're done really well.
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_00: But I just as a reader.
• 1:12:44
  likeIfindithardtoreadastorywhereIendupcaringmoreaboutthepast
• 1:12:49
  versus the present or it like pulls the tension out of the story for me to have
• 1:12:53
  to
• 1:12:53
  keep going back and forth and so it's like if I'm gonna write a second chance
• 1:12:59
  which
• 1:12:59
  arguably amnesia in a form is second chance right a pretty brutal one pretty
• 1:13:06
  brutal
• 1:13:07
  onebutI'mlikecanIdothiswithoutanyflashbackscanIdothiswithout
• 1:13:13
  And my two second chance romances that I wrote,
• 1:13:15
  I don't have flashbacks in those either.
• 1:13:17
  Because again,
• 1:13:17
  it's like I almost view it as a challenge of how you keep the tension?
• 1:13:25
  How do you get your readers invested if you're not actually showing them the
• 1:13:28
  past?
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Can you do that?
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's why it's like, well, there's two ways to do amnesia.
• 1:13:36
  It'sshesherunsintohimlaterafterthey'vebeenseparatedandshedoesn't
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_00: remember their past.
• 1:13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's one way to do it.
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_00: Or she's waking up in the hospital with no memory.
• 1:13:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's really no other way to do that type of story.
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I knew which one I'd probably be able to get away with no flashbacks.
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that's waking up in the hospital.
• 1:13:58
  that's awesome because funny enough when I was born my mother had a very
• 1:14:03
  difficult
• 1:14:03
  laborandshewentintoacomaandfor13daysandIwasaprematurebabyIwasin
• 1:14:12
  the incubator she was in a coma everybody thought both of us were going to die
• 1:14:15
  and
• 1:14:16
  SPEAKER_01: when she woke up
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_01: She had total amnesia.
• 1:14:20
  So when my father showed up,
• 1:14:23
  she said that it took her like a year to start remembering things.
• 1:14:27
  SPEAKER_01: And for many years, the patches of her life, she didn't remember.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_01: She knew because people told her that what happened.
• 1:14:34
  But she said the only thing she,
• 1:14:36
  you know,
• 1:14:37
  my father walks in,
• 1:14:38
  you know,
• 1:14:39
  and here we are.
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_01: And she's like...
• 1:14:41
  She had a sense she had something to do with him,
• 1:14:44
  but she didn't know what.
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_01: She didn't know anything.
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_01: She didn't know she had had a child.
• 1:14:50
  So I think when I saw this synopsis of your book,
• 1:14:54
  I'm like,
• 1:14:54
  I'm signing up.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_00: You can't tell stories like this to a writer because...
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_01: You can use some of that.
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Instantly.
• 1:15:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
• 1:15:02
  SPEAKER_00: if I had known this before I started writing my book,
• 1:15:07
  100% I would have written or having just given birth because that is juicy.
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_01: She didn't know.
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she was completely out and it took it took a long time.
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Took like she said a year.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_01: She was quite sort of slowly,
• 1:15:21
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_01: but I can always in my mind,
• 1:15:24
  SPEAKER_01: I imagine that encounter with my father where he's like,
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_01: so you're alive.
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, great.
• 1:15:29
  SPEAKER_01: And she's like, who are you?
• 1:15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah.
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_01: So true story.
• 1:15:36
  SPEAKER_00: What an incredible
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so then she just, sorry, I'm going to start interviewing you now.
• 1:15:44
  SPEAKER_00: So she just, after a year, it kind of just, like, she remembered him?
• 1:15:48
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, I think, I mean,
• 1:15:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think with a little bit closer in, she started remembering.
• 1:15:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think,
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of it was sort of patched together by people telling her,
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_01: no,
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_01: no,
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_01: you're married.
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_01: This is what you do.
• 1:16:01
  SPEAKER_01: She was a teacher.
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this is what happened.
• 1:16:04
  And so I think it took like her a year to sort of start really kind of
• 1:16:09
  remembering
• 1:16:10
  parts of her life and feeling like what people were telling her really
• 1:16:14
  matchedwith
• 1:16:16
  SPEAKER_01: what she remembered,
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_01: if you will.
• 1:16:19
  SPEAKER_01: But she did say for several years,
• 1:16:22
  chunks of her life were like she didn't quite remember that she didn't have
• 1:16:27
  that
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_01: visceral memory.
• 1:16:29
  SPEAKER_01: She just sort of knew it happened.
• 1:16:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I think within perhaps a few months,
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_01: she was like,
• 1:16:34
  SPEAKER_01: OK,
• 1:16:35
  SPEAKER_01: I because I think the first reaction she had to him,
• 1:16:38
  she's like she knew she had a sense that she had something to do with him.
• 1:16:42
  SPEAKER_01: He wasn't completely foreign to her.
• 1:16:45
  She just didn't know she was married to him,
• 1:16:48
  you know,
• 1:16:49
  and she just had a child.
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's incredible.
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_00: You should, what my brain is doing right now is just, like, I'm gonna...
• 1:16:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to think about this for a while.
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that was a true story.
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm bummed down that I didn't really ask my father how he felt,
• 1:17:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_01: and he's passed away already.
• 1:17:09
  But now I'm thinking I should have asked him some more detailed questions
• 1:17:13
  laterin
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_01: life to be like,
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_01: how did you feel when she reacted to you in that way?
• 1:17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So meeting.
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need to write another amnesia story But if I ever did,
• 1:17:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to remember Could be a side character,
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know What happens?
• 1:17:31
  That's a really interesting question So that's something that's happening
• 1:17:35
  toyou
• 1:17:36
  nowButI'mcuriousnowWhenyou'reinteractingwithreadersOrotherpeople
• 1:17:41
  interviewing you for anything What is the question that they've never asked
• 1:17:46
  you?
• 1:17:47
  SPEAKER_01: That you're like, you know They haven't asked you about it
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 1:17:55
  I'mnotsurethatIcanreallythinkofanythingwhereI'vehadaveryconcrete
• 1:18:03
  thought like that of I can't believe nobody's ever asked me that just because
• 1:18:08
  I'm
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_00: kind of a rambler by nature.
• 1:18:12
  SoIthinkififtherewasinformationthatIreallywantedtogetoutintoan
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_00: interview,
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'd probably find a roundabout way to get there anyway.
• 1:18:20
  SPEAKER_00: If I felt like it was important information.
• 1:18:24
  um so I don't I don't know that I can answer that that question specifically
• 1:18:29
  and
• 1:18:31
  you know I just think there's so much that you can ask a writer anyway that
• 1:18:36
  maybeI
• 1:18:37
  wouldn't think of or you know that I don't necessarily have like a list of
• 1:18:42
  things
• 1:18:43
  whereit'slikeIwishpeopleknewthisyouknowumsoI'mnotsureIhavea
• 1:18:49
  SPEAKER_00: concrete answer to that question um
• 1:18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 1:18:53
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm glad everything you said in our conversation,
• 1:18:57
  I felt too that I was receiving a very lived in experience of how to write,
• 1:19:04
  how to engage with our own creative process as a writer and what it feels like.
• 1:19:08
  SPEAKER_01: It can feel how dark night of the soul it can be,
• 1:19:13
  SPEAKER_01: but how such a cathartic experience it also is.
• 1:19:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm really glad to hear that.
• 1:19:21
  I know there are so many authors whose process is probably a lot cleaner than
• 1:19:27
  mine
• 1:19:28
  isandI'msuretheyaremorementallysoundasaresultwhentheycomebecause
• 1:19:34
  that's the thing it's like there's a thousand different ways to do this job
• 1:19:37
  there's
• 1:19:37
  SPEAKER_00: a thousand different ways to be successful in this job and you know
• 1:19:43
  I know that my process of how to write a story isn't the right one,
• 1:19:48
  quote unquote.
• 1:19:48
  It's just the way my brain works when I'm trying to piece together a story.
• 1:19:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_00: and I've had people who will message me,
• 1:19:58
  maybeit'slikeanaspiringauthororanauthorthatjustreadsmybooksor
• 1:20:02
  SPEAKER_00: whatever.
• 1:20:03
  SPEAKER_00: And they'll say like, how do you, I want to do what you do.
• 1:20:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I always laugh a little bit.
• 1:20:08
  SPEAKER_00: I go, you do not want to mimic my writing process.
• 1:20:12
  SPEAKER_00: I promise you.
• 1:20:13
  itismessyandit'sImeanlegitimatelyIdon'tsayittobefunnylikeI'm
• 1:20:20
  miserablewhenI'mwritingthefirstdraftit'snotfunformeIalwayssecond
• 1:20:25
  guess myself and I'm always trying to be better than what I did the last time
• 1:20:31
  and
• 1:20:31
  I'm you know there's like a crippling perfectionism that comes with doing
• 1:20:36
  thisjob
• 1:20:37
  whereit'slikeyouwanteverybookyouwritetobethebestbookyou'veever
• 1:20:39
  SPEAKER_00: written mm-hmm
• 1:20:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's not even logical to have that happen, right?
• 1:20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's subjective.
• 1:20:47
  What I do is inherently subjective because there are people who are going to
• 1:20:51
  read
• 1:20:51
  my books and think they're crap or that my characters are boring or whatever.
• 1:20:58
  SPEAKER_00: I can't control that.
• 1:20:59
  SPEAKER_00: And others can be totally seen.
• 1:21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:21:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it's hard because...
• 1:21:08
  SPEAKER_00: Even when I think about my process of writing the story,
• 1:21:10
  SPEAKER_00: when I explain it,
• 1:21:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
• 1:21:12
  SPEAKER_00: please don't try to do what I do.
• 1:21:15
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds so unhinged, you know, when I say it out loud to somebody.
• 1:21:22
  SPEAKER_00: But I,
• 1:21:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:21:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:21:26
  Idon'thavethesameprocessasyouwhenI'mtryingtodomyarticlesandmy
• 1:21:30
  SPEAKER_01: creative process.
• 1:21:31
  But I think the idea,
• 1:21:34
  the thought that there's a perfect way,
• 1:21:36
  there's one way.
• 1:21:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think that we all enter the forest in different ways.
• 1:21:43
  SPEAKER_01: And you enter your forest in one way.
• 1:21:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it sounds like in some ways,
• 1:21:48
  SPEAKER_01: almost for each book,
• 1:21:48
  SPEAKER_01: you're entering the forest from a different side.
• 1:21:53
  SPEAKER_01: And you traverse that landscape.
• 1:21:55
  SPEAKER_01: And for anybody trying to do that, it's not going to work.
• 1:21:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the way they enter the forest.
• 1:22:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's no only one way.
• 1:22:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's the beauty of it.
• 1:22:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think the quickest way,
• 1:22:06
  SPEAKER_00: honestly,
• 1:22:08
  to make this job unbearable is to try to mimic someone else's process when
• 1:22:15
  it'snot
• 1:22:15
  workingforyouinthesamewaythatyoucan'tgiveabulletpointlistofhowto
• 1:22:22
  SPEAKER_00: be successful,
• 1:22:24
  SPEAKER_00: how to make money.
• 1:22:25
  becausewhatworksforonepersonisnotgoingtoworkforanotherpersonandI
• 1:22:31
  reallythinkthat'sjustthequickestwaytosendyourselfintojustreally
• 1:22:38
  dangerous territory mentally when you're trying to recreate something
• 1:22:42
  thatlike
• 1:22:43
  yourbrain'sjustnotit'snotbuiltthatwaymybrainisnotwiredintheway
• 1:22:48
  SPEAKER_00: where I can plot a book make a decision at the beginning and
• 1:22:52
  Stick with it at all costs and come out to the end without any second guesses,
• 1:22:56
  SPEAKER_00: any doubting,
• 1:22:57
  SPEAKER_00: any changes.
• 1:22:59
  SPEAKER_00: I could try very hard to do that.
• 1:23:02
  And I genuinely think I wouldn't have written very many books if I tried to
• 1:23:08
  stick
• 1:23:08
  SPEAKER_00: to that formula.
• 1:23:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I wonder if they would even resonate.
• 1:23:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think the power of it, of the way we...
• 1:23:15
  SPEAKER_01: So when you were talking about your creative process,
• 1:23:17
  SPEAKER_01: the image I had was a Michelangelo carving the marble.
• 1:23:22
  SPEAKER_01: and the struggle to carve the marble.
• 1:23:23
  SPEAKER_01: But when he would carve,
• 1:23:26
  SPEAKER_01: he would get to a certain point where he,
• 1:23:27
  SPEAKER_01: in essence,
• 1:23:28
  SPEAKER_01: would turn to the statue and say,
• 1:23:29
  SPEAKER_01: go,
• 1:23:30
  SPEAKER_01: walk.
• 1:23:30
  SPEAKER_01: He could see it.
• 1:23:32
  SPEAKER_01: He was carving out of the marble what wanted to come out of the marble.
• 1:23:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the image I had when you were describing your writing process.
• 1:23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:23:42
  SPEAKER_00: You're Michelangelo of...
• 1:23:45
  ofromanceI'llputitonmybioyoushouldputonyourbioumokaysonowweshift
• 1:23:53
  to a little actor studio meets Colbert rapid fire so just answer from your gut
• 1:24:00
  and
• 1:24:01
  I think some of these you you might have already touched but so number one are
• 1:24:06
  you
• 1:24:06
  SPEAKER_01: ready I think so let's go for it
• 1:24:10
  The book that first shifted something in you as a reader before you were a
• 1:24:15
  writer.
• 1:24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 1:24:23
  SPEAKER_00: I I actually think I read it while I was writing some of my early books,
• 1:24:27
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm going to count it was On the Island by Tracy Garbus Graves.
• 1:24:35
  SPEAKER_00: I it will forever remain in my top
• 1:24:40
  probably three stories I've ever read and I just like I mourned the end of it
• 1:24:50
  when
• 1:24:50
  IwaswhenIwasfinishedreadingthatstoryandIputoffreadingitforavery
• 1:24:56
  longtimewhenIreadthedescriptionlikeIgotitfromthelibraryandthenit
• 1:24:59
  expiredandthenIgotitagainfromthelibraryandIthinkIletthatonelapse
• 1:25:04
  too before I finally was like just read it you've heard so many good things
• 1:25:06
  about
• 1:25:06
  SPEAKER_00: it
• 1:25:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I just think it's one of the best love stories I've read.
• 1:25:12
  I just really adored it and I've shouted it from the rooftops for a very,
• 1:25:17
  very long time.
• 1:25:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of those where if it actually ever became a movie,
• 1:25:21
  I don't even know if I'd want to see it because I just love that story so much.
• 1:25:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say On the Island by Tracy Garbus Graves.
• 1:25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:25:34
  number two what trope you love and has that changed at all as a writer versus as
• 1:25:40
  a
• 1:25:40
  reader no I like the enemies to lovers even though enemies reads very
• 1:25:52
  dramaticand
• 1:25:53
  bigmorelikefantasyoryouknowsomethinglikethatbutthatdisliketolove
• 1:25:59
  SPEAKER_00: where there's just so banter heavy and the tension is really high.
• 1:26:04
  It'smyfavoriteasareaderandit'smyfavoriteasawritertoobecauseIjust
• 1:26:11
  think there's so much opportunity for really good scenes when you have that
• 1:26:21
  typeof
• 1:26:24
  SPEAKER_00: material to work with.
• 1:26:25
  SPEAKER_00: So no, that has not changed.
• 1:26:26
  Yeah,
• 1:26:27
  I personally love enemies to lovers with a good dash of forced proximity.
• 1:26:32
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 1:26:35
  SPEAKER_01: And number three,
• 1:26:36
  SPEAKER_01: which of your heroes in your books or heroine,
• 1:26:39
  SPEAKER_01: the characters,
• 1:26:40
  SPEAKER_01: surprise you most?
• 1:26:43
  SPEAKER_01: And they became someone you didn't expect when you started writing them.
• 1:26:50
  SPEAKER_01: I, boy, that's a tough one.
• 1:26:55
  I think probably the character that surprised me the most isn't even
• 1:27:01
  necessarily
• 1:27:02
  SPEAKER_00: because of what happened within her story.
• 1:27:06
  ButIthinkthewaythatmyreadershaveforeverchampionedherasliketheir
• 1:27:12
  SPEAKER_00: number one,
• 1:27:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure anyone's ever going to top her,
• 1:27:16
  SPEAKER_00: is my female protagonist in The Marriage Effect.
• 1:27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Her name is Paige McKinney.
• 1:27:22
  SPEAKER_00: And...
• 1:27:25
  SPEAKER_00: That couple specifically, Logan and Paige, really just...
• 1:27:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, my readers are just feral for those two.
• 1:27:34
  SPEAKER_00: And those books came out in 2018.
• 1:27:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it's been a long time.
• 1:27:41
  SPEAKER_00: I firmly believe if I wrote their story now,
• 1:27:44
  SPEAKER_00: I could do a better job with it than I did at the time that I wrote it.
• 1:27:48
  SPEAKER_00: But it kind of spawned this universe of then I wrote his...
• 1:27:52
  half-sister stories which are my ward sister stories I kind of spun off from
• 1:27:56
  their
• 1:27:56
  bookandthenbutLoganandPaigeI'dsaythere'ssomethingaboutherandher
• 1:28:04
  protectiveness of the people that she loves she is not my nicest heroine she
• 1:28:11
  isnot
• 1:28:11
  SPEAKER_00: my softest heroine but they are obsessed with her and I think
• 1:28:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of fun to have something like that where it's like,
• 1:28:23
  SPEAKER_00: wow,
• 1:28:23
  SPEAKER_00: you guys are not moving on from her anytime soon.
• 1:28:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 1:28:27
  where I'm not sure there's ever been a heroine that I've written where I've
• 1:28:31
  gotten
• 1:28:31
  SPEAKER_00: such a visceral reaction as I have her.
• 1:28:36
  SPEAKER_01: She took a life of her own, you know.
• 1:28:38
  SPEAKER_00: She did.
• 1:28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she did.
• 1:28:41
  Number four,
• 1:28:42
  a book you think every man should read,
• 1:28:44
  romance or otherwise?
• 1:28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Of my books or any books?
• 1:28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's start with your books.
• 1:28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Also, the Lawn Crew just showed up in my backyard.
• 1:28:55
  SPEAKER_00: I told you they were going to.
• 1:28:57
  SPEAKER_00: I knew it.
• 1:29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right on cue.
• 1:29:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right on cue.
• 1:29:04
  SPEAKER_00: One book I think every man should read.
• 1:29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, this is... You are going to test me.
• 1:29:11
  SPEAKER_00: I actually think that if I'm going to pick one of my books...
• 1:29:18
  IactuallyfeellikeumthebestofallisprobablytheonethatIwouldpick
• 1:29:28
  because the way that he had to make a decision for how to overcome his own fears
• 1:29:36
  in
• 1:29:36
  a way where he wasn't waiting for somebody to give him permission he wasn't
• 1:29:40
  waiting
• 1:29:40
  SPEAKER_00: for someone to like force him into doing it there was no um
• 1:29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, he's right by my window.
• 1:29:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's just real.
• 1:29:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry if it's real loud.
• 1:29:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's okay.
• 1:29:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's part of the process.
• 1:29:52
  SPEAKER_01: They're coming in.
• 1:29:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they got called in.
• 1:29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:29:57
  IwouldsayI'mgoingtogowiththebestofallbecauseIthinkLiamreally
• 1:30:01
  embodied the strength and the courage that I think it takes to be somebody
• 1:30:08
  who's
• 1:30:08
  SPEAKER_00: willing to break a cycle that they've seen in their family over and over.
• 1:30:14
  SPEAKER_00: and I think it's done in a way where maybe men could actually absorb it.
• 1:30:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would agree with that.
• 1:30:21
  SPEAKER_01: I really.
• 1:30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:30:24
  His character was very powerful and and just the symbolism of that he would
• 1:30:30
  see
• 1:30:30
  SPEAKER_01: himself in the mirror and see his father.
• 1:30:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is it's all there.
• 1:30:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's Shakespearean to a certain level.
• 1:30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:30:38
  SPEAKER_01: I really like that one.
• 1:30:40
  SPEAKER_01: And he's British.
• 1:30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Can't go wrong with that one.
• 1:30:44
  IdidIapologizetomymombeforeIpublishedthatbooksoIwaslikemomhe
• 1:30:49
  swearsalotI'mjustgonnawarnyourightnowshereadsallofmybooksandI'm
• 1:30:55
  like I'm just gonna warn you lots of f-bombs in that book she's like okay I'm
• 1:31:00
  ready
• 1:31:01
  SPEAKER_01: I loved it I loved it um now the last one
• 1:31:06
  And I think you touched on this a little bit,
• 1:31:08
  but where do your characters come from?
• 1:31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Do they arrive as an image, a feeling, a situation?
• 1:31:15
  SPEAKER_01: What's the first spark?
• 1:31:19
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that they arrive as a feeling first.
• 1:31:30
  SPEAKER_00: To be honest, sometimes I don't even...
• 1:31:33
  like I know a lot of authors who spend a ton of time making like Pinterest
• 1:31:36
  boards
• 1:31:37
  of you know physical muses or inspirations or things like that and honestly
• 1:31:43
  the
• 1:31:43
  longerIwritethelessIdothatbecauseitjustdoesn'tfeelasvitalasitdid
• 1:31:50
  in the beginning to be able to picture every single inch of them physically
• 1:31:57
  because
• 1:31:58
  SPEAKER_00: it's just more of like a vibe in my head of what the character is like
• 1:32:02
  so I would say they come from a feeling first of whether that's I know what I
• 1:32:08
  want
• 1:32:09
  their book to be like and therefore I'm going to craft them around it or yeah so
• 1:32:13
  I
• 1:32:16
  wouldsaytheycomeasafeelingfirstyeahIasareaderIfeelthatbecausethe
• 1:32:24
  SPEAKER_01: cover for me it's almost like
• 1:32:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to notice the cover.
• 1:32:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like the vibe of the character.
• 1:32:30
  SPEAKER_01: The feeling I get is what gets more powerful than the image.
• 1:32:35
  SPEAKER_01: The image sometimes distracts me.
• 1:32:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this was I learned so much, Carla.
• 1:32:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:32:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for your generosity.
• 1:32:45
  And thank you for really showing having us have a little behind the scenes.
• 1:32:53
  SPEAKER_01: Look of your creative process.
• 1:32:55
  SPEAKER_01: I learned a lot.
• 1:32:56
  SPEAKER_01: It was a lot for me to even think as a writer, as a creator.
• 1:33:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I really I really do appreciate the way you write them.
• 1:33:05
  SPEAKER_01: I feel it's needed.
• 1:33:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's needed and it's resonating as you have your fans.
• 1:33:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm definitely looking forward to the whatever's coming.
• 1:33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have anything that's coming up sooner?
• 1:33:18
  SPEAKER_00: that you're writing?
• 1:33:19
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 1:33:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 1:33:20
  this year was kind of a strange one because I have my Wilder Family series,
• 1:33:27
  SPEAKER_00: which is re-releasing in bookstores.
• 1:33:31
  SPEAKER_00: With the new covers?
• 1:33:32
  SPEAKER_00: With the new covers with Sourcebooks.
• 1:33:34
  And so,
• 1:33:34
  you know,
• 1:33:36
  that's just four books just this year releasing into stores.
• 1:33:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just a lot.
• 1:33:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot for promo and to try to
• 1:33:48
  SPEAKER_00: With publishers, you have to write really far in advance.
• 1:33:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a matter of balancing your schedule where I'm like,
• 1:33:57
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 1:33:57
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 1:33:57
  SPEAKER_00: I have to write,
• 1:33:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:33:58
  SPEAKER_00: the book I just finished and turned in is not releasing for another year.
• 1:34:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like I right now I'm three books ahead.
• 1:34:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 1:34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because I've got I've got or I'm sorry,
• 1:34:12
  SPEAKER_00: I will be I'm two books ahead right now,
• 1:34:14
  SPEAKER_00: but I will be three books ahead come July or August.
• 1:34:18
  SPEAKER_00: when I turn in my next book for next spring, whatever, next summer.
• 1:34:24
  SoIjustkindofhadtomakeadecisionlikewhichyeardoIwanttoonlydotwo
• 1:34:29
  SPEAKER_00: new releases because I have to write something ahead of time.
• 1:34:34
  Andthisfeltliketheyearthatthatmadethemostsensebecauseofallofmy
• 1:34:38
  SPEAKER_00: source books re-releases.
• 1:34:39
  SPEAKER_00: So next year, I'll be back to three new releases.
• 1:34:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then hopefully that routine will kind of...
• 1:34:48
  SPEAKER_00: become more normal.
• 1:34:50
  SPEAKER_00: Three is about my limit.
• 1:34:51
  SPEAKER_00: Anything more than that.
• 1:34:52
  AndIkindofstartgettingtobemaybenotthebestversionofmyselfformy
• 1:34:59
  SPEAKER_00: children and my husband.
• 1:35:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's yeah,
• 1:35:04
  youhavetobalancethecatharticandthewrestlingwiththejoyofjustbeing
• 1:35:09
  SPEAKER_01: present with your life and for your family.
• 1:35:12
  SPEAKER_00: I need time.
• 1:35:13
  SPEAKER_00: I need time in between books.
• 1:35:14
  SPEAKER_00: I have a lot of author friends that can finish a book and then
• 1:35:17
  youknowtheytakealongweekendoffandthentheystartthenextoneonMonday
• 1:35:20
  andIamnotlikethatIneedaboutthreeweekstorotonthecouchandjustletmy
• 1:35:29
  SPEAKER_00: brain recover yeah
• 1:35:32
  from what I just did you have to digest you know you just went through a
• 1:35:36
  marathon
• 1:35:38
  well good for us the readers there's three more coming and of course there's
• 1:35:43
  all
• 1:35:43
  the other books you've written before so I have my pick but thank you so much
• 1:35:48
  I'm
• 1:35:48
  really I'm really glad to have met you and I'm really glad for your books they
• 1:35:54
  have
• 1:35:54
  been inspiring to me thank you well I appreciate you reaching out and your
• 1:35:58
  message
• 1:35:59
  SPEAKER_00: and
• 1:36:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that means a lot.
• 1:36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:36:04
  Whatstayswithmeaftersittingwiththisconversationishowoftenthemost
• 1:36:08
  SPEAKER_01: potent medicine arrives in a story we didn't think to read.
• 1:36:14
  SPEAKER_01: Carla writes football romance.
• 1:36:17
  SPEAKER_01: The covers signal one thing, the synopsis another.
• 1:36:21
  SPEAKER_01: And yet the rooms behind those covers hold something else entirely.
• 1:36:28
  SPEAKER_01: A generational father wound named clearly and tended carefully.
• 1:36:33
  Men learning late and imperfectly that they were always allowed to ask for
• 1:36:37
  help.
• 1:36:38
  SPEAKER_01: Women claiming their own ground without becoming anyone's healer.
• 1:36:43
  SPEAKER_01: None of it announces itself and yet all of it lands.
• 1:36:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I think these stories are doing.
• 1:36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Quietly, below the radar of official culture.
• 1:36:55
  SPEAKER_01: Tending wounds that don't always get tended.
• 1:36:58
  SPEAKER_01: Rehearsing futures the world doesn't know how to offer yet.
• 1:37:02
  SPEAKER_01: Doing the work in a language of pleasure,
• 1:37:06
  SPEAKER_01: because pleasure is one of the few languages we still share in common.
• 1:37:11
  SPEAKER_01: So here's what I want to leave with you.
• 1:37:14
  SPEAKER_01: What story has found you sideways,
• 1:37:18
  SPEAKER_01: picked up almost by accident,
• 1:37:21
  SPEAKER_01: dismissed as not your usual fare,
• 1:37:24
  SPEAKER_01: and yet it's given you something you didn't know you needed?
• 1:37:29
  SPEAKER_01: Sit with that one for a moment.
• 1:37:31
  SPEAKER_01: Let it speak.
• 1:37:33
  If something landed for you in this conversation,
• 1:37:35
  I'd love to hear about it.
• 1:37:38
  SPEAKER_01: Comments are open over on my Substack.
• 1:37:41
  Also,
• 1:37:42
  share this episode with someone who might be ready to find Carla's books too.
• 1:37:47
  And if you'd like more conversations like this,
• 1:37:50
  subscribe or wherever you listen.
• 1:37:53
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, cheerio.