Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #113 All Things Work Together For Good... Until They Don't

Transcript

#113 All Things Work Together For Good... Until They Don't · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

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  [music]
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  SPEAKER_00: Hey everyone, if the Bible says it, I believe it and that settles it.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this is a really good one.
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  SPEAKER_00: The Bible says that all things work together for the good of those who love the Lord.
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  SPEAKER_00: Or does it?
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  SPEAKER_00: And do all things always work together for the good.
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  SPEAKER_00: Last week we looked at healing.
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  SPEAKER_00: And sort of the nuances of does God still heal?
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  SPEAKER_00: And today we thought it would be good to talk a little bit about this verse that
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  SPEAKER_00: so many of us cling to when we're going through tough times.
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  SPEAKER_00: All things work together for good.
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  SPEAKER_00: All things work together for good, except when they don't.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's where a lot of us live our lives.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're wondering, well, why didn't they work out good for me or well for me?
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm Tim Wright.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is the Deep Grace Diving Podcast here with John Burgess.
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  SPEAKER_00: Our good friend Terry is She's doing Les Miserables here in the Phoenix area.
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  SPEAKER_00: And she's Mrs. Tenardier.
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  SPEAKER_00: And they will be going all the way through October, I believe.
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  SPEAKER_00: And eight performances a week, something like that.
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  SPEAKER_00: More than that, probably.
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  SPEAKER_00: And she's just excellent.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to go see her again coming up this weekend.
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  SPEAKER_00: So what inspired the podcast for today is I came across a Substack article.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I want to reference the guy because we're going to use him a lot today.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I want you to know who he is.
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  SPEAKER_00: His name is Paul Dazet.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm probably not pronouncing it correctly, so I'll spell it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Paul D-A-Z-E-T. Paul Dazet.
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  SPEAKER_00: Paul D-A-Z-E-T.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the name of his Substack,
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  SPEAKER_00: for those of you who are on Substack,
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  SPEAKER_00: and many of you are because you're getting this podcast
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  SPEAKER_00: and you get my Reckless Grace, his
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  SPEAKER_00: Substack is a Wounded Healer's Journal, a Wounded Healer's Journal.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this one comes to us from July 21st, 2026, not that long ago.
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  SPEAKER_00: And he is looking at the translation for Romans 8, 28.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to have John read for us Romans 8, 28.
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  SPEAKER_00: And John, do it from the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible, if you would, please.
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  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
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  SPEAKER_01: We know that all things work together for good for those who love God,
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  SPEAKER_01: who are called according to his purpose.
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  SPEAKER_00: All right.
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  SPEAKER_00: We know that all things work together for good to those who love the Lord
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  SPEAKER_00: and are called according to his purpose.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's always been a verse that has challenged me because I don't Think
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  SPEAKER_00: that that's true in reality,
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  SPEAKER_00: unless you say, well, ultimately, when we die, God will make all things good.
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  SPEAKER_00: But when you're in the midst of grief,
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  SPEAKER_00: as I am,
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  SPEAKER_00: when your wife dies from cancer or you've lost your job,
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  SPEAKER_00: you're struggling at home with rebellious kids and people say to you,
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  SPEAKER_00: well, you know what?
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  SPEAKER_00: All things work together for good.
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  SPEAKER_00: That can be a comfort until it's not.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the good news is that this is not what the actual verse says.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so we're going to,
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  SPEAKER_00: using a lot of Paul's stuff here,
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  SPEAKER_00: we're going to dive into a better translation of this verse.
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  SPEAKER_00: And John,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think the first problem with the way the verse is translated in some Bibles,
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  SPEAKER_00: including the new Revised Standard Version,
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  SPEAKER_00: updated edition,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is disappointing, but we'll get to their footnote in a moment.
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  SPEAKER_00: When we say all things work together for good, it has sort of a fatalism about it.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's like the universe conspires to make this happen.
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  SPEAKER_00: And if all things work together for good for those who love the Lord,
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  SPEAKER_00: well, what do we need God for then?
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  SPEAKER_00: It's just sort of like a magic pill that happens in the universe.
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  SPEAKER_00: All things are working together for good for those who love the Lord.
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  SPEAKER_00: And John, you made a good comment.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, what happens if things don't work out for the good?
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  SPEAKER_00: Because... Yeah, I think
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  SPEAKER_01: that that's right.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think this verse is used by well-intending people to comfort people that are in
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  SPEAKER_01: the midst of hardship.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I also think that when you're in the midst of hardship and you're on
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  SPEAKER_01: the receiving end, it is of little comfort sometimes.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think that Part of the problem is the way that it reads right here is that
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  SPEAKER_01: if you feel like all things are not working together for good,
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  SPEAKER_01: it says for those who love God.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's natural then for humans to say,
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  SPEAKER_01: well, apparently I don't love God or don't love God enough.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's because that's on me because it very clearly says this.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's where Again,
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  SPEAKER_00: we get into so much trouble in using Scripture and in trying to comfort people
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  SPEAKER_00: and speaking on God's behalf, saying things that aren't quite accurate.
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  SPEAKER_00: But here's the problem.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is what the Bible seems to say.
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  SPEAKER_00: If you read it right out of the New Revised Standard Version,
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  SPEAKER_00: updated edition,
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  SPEAKER_00: it says all things,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is the subject,
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  SPEAKER_00: all things work together for the good of those who love the Lord.
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  SPEAKER_00: So you say, well, that's what the Bible says.
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  SPEAKER_00: However, John, there is a footnote on that verse for the New Revised Standard Version.
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  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't have it, I've got it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've got it.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's a footnote for 828.
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  SPEAKER_01: It says this.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is the New Revised Standard Version, updated edition.
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  SPEAKER_01: Other ancient authorities read, God makes all things work together, or in all things, God works.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: That is a radically different way of looking at that verse.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we're going to try to peel off some of the layers of that for why this is important.
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  SPEAKER_00: Note that the footnote says, excuse me, other ancient sources or manuscripts.
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  SPEAKER_00: And what Paul is raising for us in his Substack is that the translation we have now,
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  SPEAKER_00: for example,
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  SPEAKER_00: in the New Revised Standard Version,
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  SPEAKER_00: Is not the most accurate, and it's not even the oldest translation of that verse.
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  SPEAKER_00: Interestingly to me,
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  SPEAKER_00: because I really like the New Revised Standard Version,
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  SPEAKER_00: updated edition, I really like it a lot.
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  SPEAKER_00: But rather than using the older verse, they footnote it instead.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's the footnote that actually makes this verse make sense.
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  SPEAKER_00: Where it takes it out of the hands of karma,
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  SPEAKER_00: it takes it out of the hands of fatalism,
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  SPEAKER_00: and it makes God the primary author of whatever it is that's going on
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  SPEAKER_00: in these circumstances around us.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I want to pause here for a moment,
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  SPEAKER_00: and before we dig deeper into this, John,
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  SPEAKER_00: read us a couple other different biblical translations so we can kind
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  SPEAKER_00: of see how these verses are being translated.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
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  SPEAKER_01: So the New Living Translation,
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  SPEAKER_01: starting in verse 28 says,
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  SPEAKER_01: and we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those
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  SPEAKER_01: who love God and are called according to his purpose for them.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's closer.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's good.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then if we go over to the New International Version.
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  SPEAKER_01: This says,
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  SPEAKER_01: and we know that in all things,
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  SPEAKER_01: God works for the good of those who love him,
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  SPEAKER_01: who have been called according to his purpose.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then did you figure out the message?
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  SPEAKER_00: Was that one too hard to do because it's all one verse?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: The message takes a lot of
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  SPEAKER_01: A lot of work to get through on this one.
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  SPEAKER_01: This might be one of those where I'm not saying that it's wrong.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying that true to the message,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's trying to make things super plain in current colloquialism.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's lost a little bit.
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  SPEAKER_01: It does say God's spirit is right alongside helping us along.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: All right.
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  SPEAKER_00: So let's go back to the New Revised Standard Version,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is the way that it was often translated.
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  SPEAKER_00: All things work together for the good.
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  SPEAKER_00: And here's part of what Paul says in his Substack.
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  SPEAKER_00: When it's translated this way,
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  SPEAKER_00: the verse becomes a claim about the universe having a built-in machinery
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  SPEAKER_00: that automatically converts every tragedy into eventual good.
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  SPEAKER_00: Your child's death,
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  SPEAKER_00: your chronic illness,
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  SPEAKER_00: your abuse, all of it was somehow necessary parts moving toward an outcome.
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  SPEAKER_00: That reading is told grieving parents that God needed their child to die,
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  SPEAKER_00: told abuse survivors that their suffering serves some divine purpose,
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  SPEAKER_00: and told people with chronic illness that their pain is a puzzle piece and
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  SPEAKER_00: a plan they're not allowed to question.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now, I can see where, on a certain level, that does bring some comfort to people.
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  SPEAKER_00: I can't see what the answer is.
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  SPEAKER_00: But somehow, in some way, there's a higher plan.
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  SPEAKER_00: And some people would often say, God is in control.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's a higher plan for this.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I can see where that brings comfort.
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  SPEAKER_00: But after a while, it begins to break down.
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  SPEAKER_00: And pretty soon you start blaming God for these things,
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  SPEAKER_00: that God had to make this happen in order for something else good to happen
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  SPEAKER_00: in your life.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's where it gets really, really dangerous.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think what the scripture says,
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  SPEAKER_00: and what Paul's going to indicate here to us, Paul, Dazet, Dazet,
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  SPEAKER_00: what Paul's going to indicate to us is that there is a more consistent way
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  SPEAKER_00: to translate this verse that is more consistent with how God works in the world
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  SPEAKER_00: and specifically how God works through the death and resurrection of Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so he starts by Quoting N.T.
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  SPEAKER_00: Wright, who is a very, very popular scholar and theologian.
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  SPEAKER_00: And he translates this,
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  SPEAKER_00: We know,
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  SPEAKER_00: in fact,
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  SPEAKER_00: that God works all things together for good with those who love him,
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  SPEAKER_00: who are called according to his purpose.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now, let's tease that one out a little bit.
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  SPEAKER_00: All right.
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  SPEAKER_00: There are also some little challenges with this.
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  SPEAKER_00: All right.
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  SPEAKER_00: God is working.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
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  SPEAKER_00: God works all things together for good.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's still a little bit of a challenge.
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  SPEAKER_00: Again, I'll take myself, for example.
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  SPEAKER_00: Jan died.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's been three months now.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm still trying to figure out what the good of that could possibly be.
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  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
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  SPEAKER_00: All right.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that God took my wife.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that at all.
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't believe that.
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  SPEAKER_00: Cancer took my wife.
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  SPEAKER_00: But what this seems to be saying is that even though cancer took my wife,
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  SPEAKER_00: even though these circumstances happened,
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  SPEAKER_00: God is going to work all this stuff for good.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now, a part of me can say, yes,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure that as time goes on,
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  SPEAKER_00: I will be able to view The death of my wife differently.
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  SPEAKER_00: It will always be a deep wound and trauma in my life.
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  SPEAKER_00: But out of this, God will start to bring life.
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  SPEAKER_00: All right?
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  SPEAKER_00: There's death and there's resurrection.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
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  SPEAKER_00: So I understand that.
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  SPEAKER_00: But it's still a little tenuous.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think Paul's going to tease out a little bit better translation for us here in a moment.
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  SPEAKER_00: But if you don't,
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  SPEAKER_00: once again, if,
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  SPEAKER_00: let's say, Five,
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  SPEAKER_00: six, seven, 10 months, 12 months, two years from now, I still haven't seen any good.
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  SPEAKER_00: What does that say about God?
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  SPEAKER_00: What does that say about me?
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  SPEAKER_00: It
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  SPEAKER_00: seems to put a lot of pressure on us to try to navigate when tragedy hits, tough times hit.
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  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes instantly we can see the good that comes out of it, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Man, it changed my direction.
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  SPEAKER_00: I reconnected with God.
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  SPEAKER_00: I reconnected with family.
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  SPEAKER_01: Fine.
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  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes, I mean, there are things we go through, they're just unbearable.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's hard to believe anything good can come from them.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we want to be really careful,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think,
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  SPEAKER_00: in how we use this verse
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  SPEAKER_00: to talk about God and to talk about those who love God and
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  SPEAKER_00: to talk about what is good.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And since this is the Deep Grace Diving Podcast,
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  SPEAKER_01: the other thing is I just don't like the qualifier with those who love him.
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  Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because I think we all go through these times in life that can be really difficult.
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  SPEAKER_01: And during those times,
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  SPEAKER_01: this doesn't seem consistent with the rest of the gospel where
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  SPEAKER_01: The goodness here is reliant in part on me loving
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  SPEAKER_01: to some unknown quantifiable unquantifiable amount.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's the challenge.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now, I don't want to at the same time,
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to dismiss what what the Apostle Paul is saying here.
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  SPEAKER_00: He is talking to Christian people.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it would be very natural for him to say, hey, here's how God works in your lives.
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  SPEAKER_00: Those you God lovers.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is how God works in your life.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not to say that God doesn't work that way in other people's lives,
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  SPEAKER_00: but he's talking to God lovers here,
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  SPEAKER_00: people who love God, people who've been captured.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I don't want to overstate
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  SPEAKER_00: this, but I think your point made before is a good one.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, if I don't see the good, does that mean that I didn't love God enough?
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  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that was ever the Apostle Paul's intention.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think he's really addressing people who love God,
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  SPEAKER_00: people who are going through suffering,
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  SPEAKER_00: And he wants to remind us that suffering doesn't have the final word God does.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's ultimately what he wants to say.
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  SPEAKER_01: So you think with those who love him is just another way of saying those folks
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  SPEAKER_01: that can hear my voice right now during this teaching who are Jesus followers?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think he's just saying,
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  SPEAKER_00: look, people of God, this is what happens when we go through suffering.
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  SPEAKER_00: So God works in all things,
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  SPEAKER_00: however we're going to translate it, God is at work in your lives, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: You people of God,
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  SPEAKER_00: lovers of God, God is at work in your lives and he's at work in your suffering.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to move on with Paul's article a little bit because we want,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think it will make sense as we go.
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  SPEAKER_00: So he paraphrases the verse this way.
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  SPEAKER_00: We know that God labors with those who love him in a kind of divine synergy,
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  SPEAKER_00: working all things toward good in keeping with God's ongoing cosmic purpose of love.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to read it again.
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  SPEAKER_00: We know that God labors with those who love him in a kind of divine synergy.
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  SPEAKER_00: Working all things toward good in keeping with God's cosmic purpose of love.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's really interesting.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's one we sort of need to sit with for a while.
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  SPEAKER_00: He goes on to say,
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  SPEAKER_00: God is present,
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  SPEAKER_00: actively laboring,
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  SPEAKER_00: working alongside you inside your suffering, not causing it and not needing it.
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  SPEAKER_00: But showing up in it to work with you towards something good out
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  SPEAKER_00: of what was never good in the first place.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is not a small difference.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is the difference between a God you'd want to run from and a God you'd want to run to.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is such a good paragraph.
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  SPEAKER_00: God is present, actively laboring.
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  SPEAKER_00: Working alongside you inside your suffering,
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  SPEAKER_00: not causing it,
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  SPEAKER_00: not needing it,
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  SPEAKER_00: but showing up in it to work with you towards something good out
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  SPEAKER_00: of what was never good in the first place.
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  SPEAKER_00: Let me give you a personal example of that.
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  SPEAKER_00: So if you haven't heard, my wife died.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so it's been three months.
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  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm going through all the stuff that you go through
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  SPEAKER_00: and everybody grieves differently, but I'm going through a lot of stuff.
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  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and my good friend, Michael Gurian, his, he lost his wife three years ago.
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  SPEAKER_00: And, um,
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  SPEAKER_00: one of the things that he's said to me over and over again is,
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  SPEAKER_00: uh, my whole identity, because I met Jan when I was 17.
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  SPEAKER_00: So my whole self has been defined, not as Tim, but as Tim and Jan. Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so now that Jan is gone, who is Tim?
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  SPEAKER_00: And he said,
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: you're going to be in a process now for several months,
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: maybe several years of rediscovering who you are apart from Jan.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: So in a sense, what God is at work doing in my life now is something that is not good.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Losing my wife at the age of 69, she's 69 when she died.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's not good.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: And there's nothing good about it at all.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: But God walks alongside me now in my grief.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things he's going to do with my grief is he's going to lead me
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: toward being the son he created me to be and discovering who I am now so
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: that I can live my life as Tim.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, with Tim and Jan still my soul, but as Tim.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: So God is doing a new work in me, not because he took Jan from me, but because Jan is gone.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so God is going to walk alongside of me now,
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: not only helping me grieve, but helping me rebuild a life.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a part of God's purpose is for all of us,
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: right, is to help us live life, to live the life that God created us for.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so I would say that right now God is actively laboring,
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: working alongside me in my suffering.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't cause it.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't need it, but he's showing up to work with me towards something good.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: Which is to become a new Tim, so to speak, out of what was never good in the first place.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: What it does for me is, first of all, it takes the blame off of God for Jan dying.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because if God took Jan, I don't want anything to do with that God.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: It takes the pressure off of me because I don't have to love God a certain amount.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it puts grace into God,
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: where God now comes to me in my suffering to do a new thing in my life out
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: of what is a horrible situation.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, isn't that what the cross is about?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: That God entered into human suffering,
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: God entered into human death in order to bring about new life.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the work of God,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: not to cause suffering,
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: but to walk alongside of us with it and then to continue to do
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: in us what God is always doing.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that's loving us and caring for us and molding and shaping us into his people.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: And Tim,
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: if you if you read this the way that Paul does it,
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: we're going to have to have him on the podcast.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: If for nothing else, then he can tell us how to pronounce his name.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: If you read this the way that Paul is advocating that it's read,
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: and it really comes down to one word,
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm not going to try to pronounce the word,
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: but the word that we get from that word is synergy.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it comes down to that one word.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: And what he's saying is if you go back to the very oldest manuscripts that we have,
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: and this I think is really important.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: The oldest manuscripts are talking in this sentence about what God is doing.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: And as it's been perhaps mistranslated,
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: it's been mistranslated into something that we have to do.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Or that the things around us have to do, that the circumstances are doing.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: And how many times have we talked in this podcast about whether it's
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: a loose translation or a spot on translation about understanding that possibly
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: the way that we should be reading this is a description of what God is doing or
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: who God is and not so much about placing ourselves into it and how we're reacting
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: to forces around us.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm wondering, I'm building up to a big question.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: My big question is,
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: do you feel like Paul Dazit's reading
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: and perhaps correct translation is more consistent with the rest of the gospel?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: A gospel that says, I will be with you always, even to the end of the age, those kind of things?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think always when we're wrestling with scripture,
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: we want to always look at it through the lens of the death and resurrection
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: of Jesus.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: And all that that means,
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: and anything that suggests that we've got to do something,
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: anything that suggests that God sends bad things to us is not what the cross is
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: about.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: The cross is about a God who enters into all of human stuff,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: including human suffering,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: and actually experiences it with us,
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: but then walks alongside of us To ensure that in the end,
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: whatever that means, that grace is going to have the final word.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: Life is going to have the final word,
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: both here and obviously when we meet Jesus someday in heaven.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now, Paul Dazit does a very nice job of giving us a metaphor for this.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: He uses the word architect.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: And he said,
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: when you think about an architect,
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: they draw the blueprint before construction starts.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: So they've got everything, everything.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Detailed where the beams go, where the doors go and so on and so forth.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: And he says, if a house collapses, the architect either intended it or made a mistake.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: A co-laborer shows up after the walls are already cracking and gets to work.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't design the collapse.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: They're not responsible for the fault lines,
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: but they're there with tools doing what can be done with what's actually in front
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: of them.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: And he says,
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: It is the co-laborer that this verse is talking about,
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: that God comes to us and shows up in the wreckage and begins to work again
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: in our lives.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I just think that's beautifully said.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: And again,
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: I want to encourage people,
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: if you're on Substack,
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: which most of you are, again,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: go and look for a Wounded Healer's Journal,
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: and it's Paul Dazzet,
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: D-A-Z-E-T.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: And he then,
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: because we're getting close to our time here, he does then go back to verse 26.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is really, really helpful.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Verse 26, I'm reading from the New Revised Standard Version.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Likewise, the Spirit helps us in our weakness.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: For we do not know how to pray as we ought,
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: but that very spirit intercedes with sighs too deep for words.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: And he tells us that the word,
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: it's a Greek word,
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: and essentially that word for groans
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: is used for a heavy breathing of a beast
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: of burden straining under a load or for a woman in active labor.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so he goes on to say, this isn't a refined prayer.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is the most vulnerable, raw sound a body makes when it is run out of words.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where the Spirit meets us to pray.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then the verse,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: God shows up as our co-laborer,
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: so to speak, and responds to that prayer by bringing grace and life and hope.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we're going through it,
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Paul, the Apostle Paul, who wrote these verses, has two really big promises for us.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: One, when all we have left are groans or deep weeping or sobbing,
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: that's the Spirit of God praying through us.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: And anyone who has been through deep grief knows what it is to just sigh deeply or
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: to sob until your guts just about puke
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: out.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: And to realize that that's prayer
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: And this is just hitting me now because I've been in those deep sobs.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's prayer.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: The Spirit is using that as prayer.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, the second promise is that God shows up.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't cause this to happen.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: He had no reason to make it happen.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: But the house is falling apart and he's going to come in now and begin his work
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: of repairing the damage through love and grace.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how So when we say all things work together,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think we need to be patient with ourselves.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: We need to realize that that may not look like what we think it's going to look like.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's not going to be the same as it was.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not going to take away the pain.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: One of my therapists said,
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: after Jesus was done on that cross,
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: the wounds were still there on his hands and his feet.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: The wounds remain.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: The pain is still there.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't go away.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: But it can shift.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: It can be seen through a different filter.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: But to say all things work together so you don't have to worry about it anymore,
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: it's not going to hurt anymore,
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: does a great disservice to what the gospel is about and to people who are suffering.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that in the end,
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: this is really good news for us that God comes to us when the host is falling apart
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: and brings through our groans and our sighing, brings grace and hope and peace.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: And we may not always see it right away.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, Jesus was on that cross for hours and in the tomb for three days.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it doesn't always come quickly.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: But what we do know is that God always shows up and is at work.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: And God's will Of grace and love in our lives will not be thwarted,
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: no matter what life throws our way.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: Special thanks to Paul Dazit, he has no idea.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: Dazit, Dazay,
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: really sorry we're mutilating his name,
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: but I do encourage you again on Substack, a wounded healer's journal.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Looks like there's some really,
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: and this is the only one I've read,
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm impressed enough to recommend him just based on that one, Substack article.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: So really good stuff and I appreciate him sort of Steve McLaughlin, M.D.:
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: : Being the catalyst for our discussion today.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Steve McLaughlin, M.D.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: : All right, john any final words you have or thoughts.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Steve McLaughlin, M.D.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: : I don't I, as always, I hope that those are words of comfort to people.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Steve McLaughlin, M.D.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: : And what you know at one point I think we're going to handle.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of the topic of how it can be somewhat discomforting at times to be looking at
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: a very well-known verse and understand that maybe there's a few tweaks
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: that were done to this that weren't quite right.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do that next time because you kind of raised the question before we got on.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, then how are we supposed to trust these translations?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's our cliffhanger.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which is a good question.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: we've talked about it a little bit in the past,
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: but I do think it's a really interesting one,
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: especially now that we've looked at a verse that's been so mistranslated.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: How do we know what to trust and who to trust when it comes to these translations?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that'll be a good topic for next week.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: We are so grateful you all joined us.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: John D., thank you.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: You're welcome.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Tim.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Bye, your friends.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Soundstripe.