Latest / LUZ musings / Isaac Etter, Adoption, and Transracial Adoption

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Isaac Etter, Adoption, and Transracial Adoption · LUZ musings

• Danielle J. Miller: Hello and welcome to Lose Musings. I'm your host, Dr. Danielle Miller. We are focusing on the people and ideas that make Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, a healthier place to live. Now back to the episode. Hi. I'm here today with Isaac Owner. So excited to have him. Yeah, so excited to be here. Yeah, thank you. So tell me, we wanted to talk today about an important issue, I think relevant many places in the world, definitely the US. Definitely Leicester County. yeah. And I thought we could talk about adoption. Yeah. And you have experience living this life and also professionally. Yeah. I've been all around the adoption world. Everywhere. Can you tell us a little bit, maybe your background and how you got into this work? Absolutely. So I was adopted at two years old and I was adopted interracially, so it's about to buy a white family when I was two years old, which is definitely a big part of my story and a big part of my work that I've done. I had a lot of different identity and trauma related challenges growing up. A lot of the work that I've done has centered around grief and loss and identity, which I think are three like huge challenges, huge things that all adoptees go through. And as I transitioned to an adult, I started speaking about my story just for adoption agencies, for conferences, and that speaking business really grew, ended up growing into a parenting company. And that parenting company was then sold this past March. and so I did that for about seven years. Wow. so pretty much my whole twenties was building parenting content, books, resources, all these kinds of things for adoptive and foster parents. So we legitimately have been on all realms of it. and still do quite a bit of consulting in the space and I still do keynotes and and speaking pretty regularly. So definitely in this area, even Yeah. I I mean if anything, mostly nationally. You know what I mean? Obviously, Lancaster's where I grew up. I've been a lot of I've done a lot of speaking around here with the organizations, but I mean there have been whole states that have implemented things that we've suggested. Amazing. So yeah, it's been it's been an incredible journey and ride and wow. Yeah. A lot of time and a lot of dedication to really understanding how child welfare works in each different state. 'Cause it is different, just like in Lancaster County and Pennsylvania, we have our own unique way of doing child welfare. Okay. that has an impact on how children and families are served. Amazing. Yes. I, you know, I did not grow up in this area, unlike you. And I do think Lancaster County is really a bit of a hotbed for adoption. Yeah. I just notice a lot of parents, families. as a family doctor, I've done a lot of adoption physicals that comes up pretty regularly, just families looking to either adopt or adopt again. so there's you mentioned so many things that we can unpack. Yeah, absolutely. And I just thought we could start with. Like bird's eye view, basic things, somebody considering getting into adoption or foster care. What do families need to know from a bird's eye view? And then there's probably a million questions under that. Yeah, a hundred percent. And I will say that it's very different depending on if you're fostering or adopting, right? So if you're fostering your goal, the goal of fostering is reunification with the birth family, right? So if you're fostering, it's really important to have a really strong lens of trauma. To understand what you're inviting into your home, to understand the complexities that may enter your home and how to manage those, how to support a child to also know what you're capable of supporting. Those are all really important things on the fostering side. Mm-hmm. On the adopting side, it's a whole different journey because adoption is a is a final act or it's meant to be a final act, right? We know there's all kinds of stories of adoption not being a final act, which is a whole different where we're all the glass. Yeah. Different campaigns. but Adoption is meant to be a final act, which means that yes, you need to understand a lens of trauma and identity and supporting them but you also need to understand the lifelongness of right and the kind of evolution that occurs right from the time a child is depending on if you adopt them, which usually happens, you you adopt a child under five, that the challenges that you may occur in those first five years are going to be dramatically different when it comes like five to twelve, thirteen and thirteen into adulthood are gonna be another dramatic shift. And so adoptive parents have to be much more aligned and understanding of the lifelong complexity of adoption. Mm-hmm. Whereas foster parents are usually doing, you know, more short term things, you know, a year, two years max is a lot of adoptive seasons. Yeah, one of those seasons. And of course that's still, you know, that's still a dedication. But adoptive parents have to learn to be very fluid. Mm-hmm. Right. they might adopt a child early in life, infant two years old like me and seemingly have no challenges, right? Meaning that like baby is not crying all the time, doesn't seem seems to be bonding pretty well. And then the child hits five or six and then all of a sudden signs of attachment issues, behavioral challenges, identity challenges start to occur and a lot of times these are shocking for adoptive parents. Right. So it's really just understanding that adoption has has such a fluidity to it that just because your infant, two year old, three year old seems to be bonding really well at that stage does not mean that adoption challenges won't occur later. Yeah. And they could not occur until they're teenagers, and they could not occur until they're adults, right? And so it's just understanding that adoption is such a lifelong process that adopted parents really have to be prepared to support their children in different ways. One of the first things that comes to mind as you're talking is are families prepared for exactly what you're describing? You mentioned being prominent form healthcare professional and with the experiences I've had professionally, I definitely know what that means. But do parents know what that means? Are they being trained in that? And are they being trained about I think it's really awesome the way you're describing you could have a challenge or a really easy street at any stage and it can change. Absolutely. Are parents aware of that? I would say yes and no. You know what I mean? D you know, a lot of times adoptive parents are adopting younger children, right? So it might be different if you've done a teen adoption. Right. But like if you've adopted an infant or a two year old, three year old, you likely went through this training as a young person, maybe middle aged person, and then five, six, seven years go by. Do you remember everything that was covered in that training is a great question. Okay. Okay. So there may have been some preparation. So there might have been some preparation, but it kind of goes back to the importance of one of the main things that my company did, which is post adoption. Because a lot of these challenges, so I think parents are are mostly somewhat prepared, or at least it's acknowledged that a child is going to have trauma, is going to have identity challenges. These are things that be implemented at most agencies. Okay. but again, a parent comes in. as a, you know, mid twenties, late twenties, early thirties couple excited to become parents for the first time. They get a cute little child. Ten years later they're having a breakdown in crisis. Lock not super likely they're remembering the like two hour training they went to a decade ago. Totally fair. And so that's usually what I find to be the breakdown. It's like if I meet with an agency, it's like, yes, this isn't there. training, yes, they're told about trauma and what that means and how the child's brain will develop based on trauma, whether they occurred in the womb, or whether it's just a part of the separation, or whether the child actually went through traumatic things pre adoption. all that to say, crisis doesn't usually hit when a child is two. Right? Crisis hits when they're in elementary, when they're in middle school, when they're in high school. And that's when you need another level of support and knowledge in a lot of those sports again. Yes. So then that begs the question, what is available to parents who are in the middle of this new challenge, this new situation, everything's evolving at home. They obviously love their child, want to help their child and the child needs help. So what is available to folks? Yeah, I mean there's a lot of great resources online that are available to folks. the Center for Adoption Support and Education is a great national resource. They're actually based out of Maryland. They have some events that they do. So Not that far if you wanted to go to them. We have local organizations like Colby's. we have Swan Network here in PA. there are also clinicians that are adoption competent. You can actually find them on the Center for Adoption for Education website. so they have a therapist directory. And one thing that all parents can look for training and support around is something called TBRI, which is a form of trauma training that is really helps. building trust and relationships with youth that are in foster care or adopted. What did T B I for? That's why I shouldn't that's what I was supposed to say. It's it's trust based relational intervention is where the acronym stands for. and it's comes out of the Karen Kruvis. That's how you say her daily Institute in Texas. it's fantastic stuff. I mean I've gone through a lot of their trainings. They're going to be people that are certified in it. And the success rate with D V RI strategies when it comes to children who are ex who are behaviorally expressing trauma, grief, loss is very high. It really re-seeks the traditional methods of supporting youth who are who are going through really a grieving and kind of releasing of their trauma process. Amazing. And so even rethinking how we talk about big behaviors, right, as you can notice, it wasn't like kids are like acting out and acting terribly. Getting, you what I mean? So what what we might think of acting out or misbehaving if we change our lens of how we even talk about and look at it, which is that this is the expression of their grief, an expression of their trauma, them trying to process trauma loss, all these things. then it also helps reframe how we respond to it, which is something that TBRI does really, really well. so you'll find many counselors who are also TBRI certified. That's awesome. And so it's it's a great dual, dual approach. So you're saying you know oft resources nationally, but some of them in our background based on parentheses. Hundred percent. For kids, for parents. Absolutely. And Colby's it's in Lancaster. Exactly. Swan is in Lancaster. It's a it's the Pennsylvania post permanency kind of continuum. And I'm trying to think if there's anything else that like me and my mom just went to the Swan conference in June. It was a credible conference that, you know, any anybody who's adopted or fostered the state can can have access to, which is super incredible. and so that's something else to think about. Yeah, so it was in the Poconos, but I mean, it's for Pennsylvania adoptive families. Awesome. And so they had stuff for teens, they had stuff for non adopt like the teen program was for non adopted and adopted youth. So you can bring your whole family. Really cool. And there's a lot of parent sessions. Me and my mom got to work with both teens and the parents. It's just a really, really cool opportunity and I was really impressed by how that set up. And I guess what I'm hearing is it doesn't sound like kids in DMs age out. Yeah. They they have access to Yeah, if you've adopted, you have these kinds of supports for life. Amazing. Absolutely. and it's also another benefit. I mean, post adoption is a lifelong journey. And where a lot of parents experience continued challenges or in those early adult years into those kind of thirties years whereas children are on their own, they might search for their birth family, they might experience substances. Substance abuse happens a lot with youth that are managing and dealing with trauma, right? So there is actually another level of support that's tends to be needed in those years. And those are where resources like Swan, like case, like therapy can really become a another layer of benefit. Amazing. And you don't need to have access to those agencies before plug into them now. No, not at all. Yeah, yeah. So Swan stuff is the only one that is administered through the state. So if you adopted in Pennsylvania, Swan resources are free to you. Great. I believe you can reach out and still access them as somebody who may have moved here. Okay. but there are certain parts of Swan that are free for people who have adopted in the state. Right. And so if you haven't adopted in the state, there might be things that are paid services. But a lot of what you get through Swan will be kind of like an in network situation. If that's might be a good way to tur to phrase it. Whereas if you've adopted through our state foster care system or through our state agencies, it's free. Amazing. Awesome. You mentioned your mom. yeah. So an active participant. Yeah. I just want to hear a little bit. You've had a journey. Yeah. And it seems like from the outcome looking in, you've taken your family a along this journey in some ways. Which has to be pretty awesome because they took you for a ride and now, you know, we're sharing, learning, growing together. Can you talk about that? Maybe the structure I think you have Sib who's adopted, you have a couple that aren't. A hundred percent. So yeah, so I'm the oldest and I was adopted when I was two and then I have four that are biologically related to or three that are biologically related to my parents. So they My mom gave birth to them and then my youngest brother is also adopted. So on both ends, we're adopted. We're both transracial adoptees, interracial adoptees. So he's from Hawaii. And like I'm just a black like domestic adopte, and that's from another country or anything like that. but both of us on the kind of like the tail ends are both, you know, people of color. And so me and him, very interestingly, because we're ten years apart, have had very dramatically different experiences. Whereas like I grew up where my experience as a person of color wasn't really acknowledged, where we didn't really talk about it, where I didn't run any of it that looked like me. So my racial identity was also part of my identity confusion, especially as I grew into an adult. thankfully my parents watched me go through that. We went through all kinds of conversations and challenges and conflict about it. And so my brother on the other side of that has had a very different experience in his kind of like late middle school teenage years, right? you know, I was, you know, sixteen, seventeen when I graduated high school. So he was seven. So by the time he was ten, my parents had gone through so many conversations about race, identity, and loss. And so his whole kind of ten to now eighteen wow experience has been dramatically different than mine, which is a huge blessing. Right. Even the way that he's been educated, school environments that he's been in, the support he's gotten. is all a result of basically my family really seeing and understanding the impact of not providing that support. And of course that was just like the the test run, right? As all yeah, as all right in some way. As all oldest are, yes. And so it it got to obviously those were really challenging things for me to go through and there's a lot of conflict and a lot of understanding that had to be had on both sides for us. But the parents are really dedicated to learning and understanding. not only the challenges I was having as a person of color, which I think were some of the biggest gaps for them to understand, but also how adoption had an impact in there too. Right. How like loss in adoption is a multi-layered thing and race and culture is one of the multi-layered parts of it. And so I was experiencing loss of birth family, birth connection, birth culture, which also has a tie to my racial identity and racial culture. As well as confusion about who I am, where I fit into things, adults, am I trying to make the way in the world? So all these things were not existing as like separate silos. And my parents understanding that actually really helped us all heal. That loss is kind of this roots thing in adoption. And a lot of times the only loss part in adoption that truly gets recognized is the loss of the birth family. But the loss of the birth family has a multitude of effects. Because birth culture, birth identity is something that everybody has. Uh-huh. No matter what their race is, right? Everybody's family has their traditions. Everybody has nose or eyes or, you know, all these things that can resemble their family. and so being of a different race just added another level of visibility challenge to those identity challenges. Yeah. Are you a healthcare professional looking for a brick and mortar space to further support? in this community? Do you resonate with Lose Medicine's holistic and whole person approach to healthcare? If so, you may be a good match for our community partnership opportunity with like-minded practitioners looking to share space for their own work. At Loues Medicine's Manheim Township location, just north of Route 30, we have several spaces available for rent as we grow into this newly renovated large office space. Contact us at Lose Medicineluz Medicine.com to learn more, and we'd love to explore to find out if we are a good match for one another. We hope to meet you soon. And I think as I'm listening to you talk, just these high points, entering school, becoming a queen, a teen, a young adult, those are identity seasons, right? Hundred percent. Finding your way in the world, you're looking for where you fit in. Exactly. So we all experience that, but if we have these other questions or yeah factors in our past, it that is a natural time it seems. A hundred percent right in. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And where you'll be asking so many questions and if there's no answers, it's only adding to the complexity and maybe the angst of it. And most adoptees, you know, sadly but don't have a lot of information about their story. Most adopted parents don't have a lot of information about the child's story. Yeah. and so imagine you're going through those angsty years, trying to understand yourself, trying understand where you fit in. And there's just no information to give you. Yeah. There's no no nothing to be told. And so it leads to this thing, especially in elementary years called Ghost Kingdoms, which is a thing where especially young adoptees where they kind of create a story around their adoption. Right. And so it's almost like a dream. Yeah. The fantasy world. Yeah. Magic world. Exactly. Exactly. It it comes along where like a lot of adoptees think they were, you know, celebrities, kids who were given away, you know, princes or, you know, princesses, kind of like the Moses story, right? The prince, you know, being sent down the river to the to the princess. Yeah. and so this kind of thinking happens because there's such a gap in information. And in my mind, it's called, yeah. ghost kingdoms. Is that is I I'm not sure if it's a technical term that's been established. It's a term that's become pretty widely accepted in the adoption community, but I'm not sure if it's a clinical term. Yeah, no, that's it totally relates to the math. think phenomenal yeah there there are there are many people who have written about it and talked about it it's it's in this is us it's one of those things which is pretty interesting yeah so it has had some more representation but I'm not sure if you find it in a clinical book. But it is something that occurs. I experienced it many adoptees experience it. So it goes to that like lack of information if there's nothing to latch on to you just start creating what could what could Could you latch on to even if it's not reality? Yeah. Amazing. So let's say we have a family, they have a child who's adopted, they're hitting these classic bumps in the row, the child's growing up, child has questions, child has wondering, you know, all these things. If they have information, I guess what I'm hearing you say is sharing the information you have is valuable. 100%. And it can be age appropriate, right? We know like now stories are easy. Some stories involve a lot of complex moving pieces. And so sometimes it's more about learning what to share when. But sharing what you can is really important because it allows an adoptee to start to process their story. and I and I often tell parents like if you have like a horrid story, you know, maybe incarceration, drug abuse, things like this, in a birth family story, you know, you just learn to share a small piece of it, see how they react and kind of keep adding the pieces as they're ready. You can also give them a lot of control in, you know, what when things get added to it. So if you share something and say this is just a little bit, you know, we want to make sure you're okay. You let us know when you want to talk and learn more, that gives the child a a powerful opportunity to kind of take ownership of learning more about their story. Having the driver's seat. Yeah, in the driver's seat for yeah. So really incredible opportunity for closeness and trust as well. because then they're more, I think, likely to trust that you're honestly sharing. If you're giving them permission to ask more, being willing to share more as they're ready. Amazing. What if parents are afraid? Well parents are always afraid. I I exactly families who might say, I'm terrified to talk about family. and and I don't know you want to talk about what those common fears might be and how you walk people through that. Yeah. What's interesting is that loss is such a common theme in adoption as a whole. And a lot of a lot of our fears around telling our child story, being more open and transparent about their birth family, having a relationship with their birth family, these are all fear-based decisions. And so really a great question to ask yourself first is is this coming from love or from fear? And if it's coming from fear, then you already know that it's probably not the right path. and so loss I think is so central in adoption because most of the time the thing that adoptive parents are scared of the most is also loss. Loss of their relationship with their child. Yeah, so it's a double ed. Also, infertility, pregnancy loss are big drivers of adoption. And so there could have already been an experience of loss. So they're ex sc they're scared of loss again. Yeah, sure. and so because of these things, all this fear gets infiltrated into the parenting. all this fear sits within the child as well, because the child is also scared of loss, regardless of if there's anger outburst or you're not my real parents being sad, right? The child is also still scared of loss and being abandoned and rejected because they At some point, they are going to connect that with their own story. And so all of this soft, like it doesn't, it doesn't get mitigated by more secrets. It nothing helps by living in more fear. So it actually is more helpful to figure out like how does honesty, transparency, trust get built in this relationship? Because the exact attachment that most parents are longing to have is actually sitting on the other side of these things. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But it's just really hard to see that when you're creating out of a toer lens. really powerful. Yeah. I feel emotionally specific. I I I mean I can't disagree with you. I you know I I think what I'm also hearing you say is and this feels so human human. Like superhuman identity. Right? Yeah, 100%. And that's the theme of your company right? Yeah absolutely identity is actually and in some ways it's a lifelong process. But in many ways it is really hyper focused into those twelve teen young adult years. So Am I hearing you right in that a child who's been adopted with a different or a similar culture to their adopted family, identity is coming for them. It does not go away. a hundred percent. Yeah, absolutely. Because yeah. Yeah. When you're when you're disconnected from your birth family in in any way, there is an identity disruption. Right. So, you know, like I said, you know I'm not thinking about culture in like the cultural sense that we might think about it, but every family has in a sense their own culture. Yeah. Sure. Right. And so at some point, if a child chooses to go find their birth parents, whether they're eighteen or eighty-five, they will be introduced to that birth culture. Sure. And that will in in and of itself be another transformation and evolution of their identity, no matter when they go on the journey, right? And so as a child, they will also be searching for their identity, where they belong, things that are similar, traits that are similar. and even if your family culture and how they identify are close, it doesn't really it's not gonna change the fact that a lot of the physical traits that we see displayed in biologically similar people do not exist within this dynamic, right? So if you have any biological children who grow up and they look exactly like your baby picture, then there will be an identity challenge for your adopted child. So it's just like I mean, I experienced this and I loved my siblings. I have no problems with my siblings. It was fantastic having siblings that were biological. But I did grow up hearing all these similarities between my siblings that were obviously biologically parents versus me and my youngest brother who did not have any of those. Right. It's not wrong, but it just exists in it. So it adds to the identity challenges. Yep. So I got two more questions there. Perfect. Friend of mine. I got a quick response. Please. Yeah. I guess you're talking about the possibility of a child or an adult, you know, eight or eighty-five saying, raising their hand. Yeah. I'm interested in finding out who are these people that I came from. And so what do you say to I mean a young adult in that moment and also their adopted family who I'm guessing is terrified. Yeah. Okay. So so that's just a really loaded experience. Yeah. It's a super loaded experience. And nowadays there's much more open adoptions, which I think are super helpful. So even if they're just like semi open where there's just like a little bit of communication and like updates, it's still much more helpful than like totally private adoption. Cause then it's like you have no clue really who these people are and that that leaves a lot of room for fear in parents. Right. But what I would say is like one, your child, if they want to have that experience, they need to have that experience. And so some people decide not to have it for a long time, some people decide never to have it. And that's not right or wrong. Like it's not a universal experience. It's not a universal. Hundred percent. And the environment you create around their birth parent will also dictate how honest they are with you about that. Right. So if you never are wanting to be open about their birth parents, if Talking about their adoption. Weird if they don't if they couldn't ask questions as a kid about their birth parents or about their story, then they're certainly not going to come to you as a 20-year-old trying to find their birth parents unless it's inspired. Because there's not safety in a relationship built. That's powerful. Right. And so that's why we see some people and we even see it. I love using this is us because it's so universal and people miss a lot of the correlations in this is us. But if you think about the first episode of us, the pilot episode, Randall, I think, is on his thirty fifth or thirty sixth birthday, he's finally going to see his birth dad. Wow. Right. And so that's something that people miss so often in this is us, that he's like, it's a thirty sixth birthday. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. He's doing the thing then, which if you're an adoptive parent who thinks, my kid has never asked about their birth parents, so everything's fine. So they get into adults that they're in their twenties. they never asked about their birth parents, everything's fine. Well, you don't know. Like you don't know because the environment also needs to be created. And if you watch the show This Is Us, you can see how that environment was not created for Randall to truly be curious because of his birthday and his fear or because of his adoptive parents' fear, particularly his mom, right? and so we can see how that environment the environment you create around it really makes a difference. And it can also prolong when a child goes and does something that they truly actually do want to do. and so Everything starts in those like zero to eighteen years, as everybody knows, right? It's the foundation of the child, but it's also the foundation of your relationship and your trust and how much you get led into the next part of their journey, which will inevitably be their own. Right. So they turn eighteen, their adoption records are public no matter what you do. Wow. What they want to request about their story, what's possible for them to request is possible at that point. There's been tons of stories about birth family also reaching out the day a child turns eighteen. Cause they're keeping track. Wow. You know what I mean? And so privacy is not or privacy and secrecy. I want to say secrecy, not privacy, because sometimes you do need privacy. Yeah. But secrecy is not on adoptive parents' side. Even though they think it's just not on the internet. Especially with the internet. I mean, gosh, we have a whole nother conversation about how your child is very likely to find their own story now with the internet. But secrecy when it pertains to adoptive stories, especially by the time your child is 18, is not on your side at all. Because the perception of birth family, especially let's think about like an aunt or an uncle or cousins, could have could be incorrect. So if your child learns about their their adoption story through a source that could have the wrong context, the wrong story. It can work against you also. Yeah. Right. So it's actually there's actually so many levels to being open and transparent, having open conversations about your child's story. Because a disgruntled birth parent who maybe lost parental rights, like maybe the maybe literally a court said you cannot parent could be going and telling their family, This family stole my child. Right? And so The these things just become super important in sometimes if you wait until your child's twenty five and is reconnected with their birth family and the birth family has this whole other story, then it's a he said she said situation. Which is a mess. Which is a mess. Yeah. So not to bring more fear into the equation, right? It's not about fear or like here's all the things to be scared of. Yeah. It's more about like here's the opportunity and openness, here's the o opportunity and transparent conversations. You can start these young in small ways, and as they get older, As they get to be eighteen, it's just really imperative that adoptees know their story. And yeah, a lot of parents don't want to do that. They still think their child isn't ready. But to be adopted at eighteen, unless there's like some kind of diagnosis where they shouldn't know their story. at eighteen, really pretty much all adoptees should know You're saying unless the adopted child knows the adopted some type of cognitive I don't want to And of course if they're if you have a clinician, which you should in their life, you can go check in with the clinician. Yeah. But from the internet and from what gets opened up when a child turns eighteen, really adopted child by the time they're eighteen should pretty much know everything you know. Even the hard stuff, even the like terrible stuff that you might know, the depressing, sad stuff you might know, it just is not to their benefit to walk into adulthood where somebody else can tell a story. And so that's really what adoptive parents have the opportunity for before their child goes out into the world to really be the person who gets to sit with them in their story. Amazing. This is so intense. I love it so much. But you're saying zero to eighteen. You've got these eighteen years where you can sprinkle moments with as they're ready. I would imagine a lot of teens and teens. They go from not talking, but they also go to talking, right? So they have both of those things happening. Yeah. And your job will be to get them ready to launch with your knowledge by the time you're Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. And with like whatever like the truth is that you understand their story. You know, like in the last year I've I've reconnected with a lot of bright family and I learned a lot of things that like even my adopted parents didn't know. But they didn't know. But they didn't know. Right. So, you know, I can I can because my parents have always been so open about my story, we've had conversations about it since I was young. You know, I mean, I can go to them and say, Did you know like, did you know this? Like I in and the more we're talking about it, I'm not going to them say like, Did you know this? Like kind of like confrontational, like, Why did you tell me? It's more like here's what here's here's how my birth family's describing my adoption. Yeah. Versus how it's been described to me. Yeah. And like they are also kind of getting to sit into like, my gosh, like we didn't we didn't know your extended birth family. This is how they were feeling. Right. and so 'cause they know exactly. And so it's like it's very interesting when you have that trust built up. Now I can go out of my parents and we're like literally like, my gosh, we didn't know that all these different factors were impacted by meeting place for adoption. and so it's yeah, it's very interesting. It's really cool now. And you know, I remember as I was leaving, like literally as I was leaving visiting my birth family in March, you know, I was just I was on an hour and a half phone call with my mom, just like talking about all the different things I learned and also you know what I mean? And so and it was great. You know what I mean? It was great to process it and think through it and and you talk about it. What parts of that she remembers, what parts of it she doesn't, and and just really being able to connect that way. Amazing. Yeah. Amazing. I wanna talk a little bit more. We haven't really grabbed our hands right now. Transracial identity. Yeah. I think in Lincoln County, it is in my experience a lot better for adoption and it's a lot of transracial adoption. And so it strikes me that there's other layers and things that parents and siblings and everyone need be aware of. And and kiddos too. I mean, I don't know exactly how you prepare a child, but but just talk us through these other layers, what they need, how they function, how we can be putting our best. forward as we thought these kids. Absolutely. Yeah, when we think about, you know, this kind of like transracial and a racial adoption, the first layer to kind of get out of the way is this kind of idea of there being like a political part of it. Because what tends to happen is like an association with racial identity, i.e. like black, Asian, or Hispanic, is looked at a little bit more as if it's like a liberal thing. Whereas people of color just have a culture, have an origin, have a different way of hair, texture, food culture, have all these different cultural elements that are apolitical, right? Like they don't have a political association. So what I can see happen is like very conservative people transracially da and think I'm going to raise this child like I would a white child and or like I would any other child would actually be determined, right? And not be thinking about the the different cultural aspects that people of that race have. And that is not political, that is where they get their hair done. That is the food, the different ways they may take care of their skin, their hair, which are all aspects of culture and all aspects of identity that will inevitably impact the child at some point. And these are some of the things I see as some of the first challenges that transracial adoptees run into, which is that I meet other people that look like me and I feel ignorant. Right. I've never been yeah, yeah. As a as a child, as a young teenager, like I've never gotten my hair cut at a barber shop or like I've never even used products that would are actually correct for my hair. Right. So these things, food can be another gap in culture. right. So all these things that again, have no political association or actually these roots of thinking about identity. another one is that just like everybody else, when we see people who look like us, we can associate ourselves with that. And so when transracial parents raise their kids in environments where there aren't any adult figures that look like them, it sets a child up for understanding where they fit into the world. Or their only visual for people who look like them being successful, whatever you might deem that as, is online. Which is which which causes a big gap, right? And so like you've if you've gone to church and you've never seen a black pastor, hard to associate yourself with becoming a pastor. Teacher the same way. and so another kind of element to this is like what kind of community is to be a part of where your child is seeing representations of people who look like them. in roles that they want to be in, in roles that are successful, adults, thriving. and all these again help them create a s secure sense of racial identity. And again, this process and this kind of terminology around racial identity is not to be confused maybe with a political racial identity. But in instead we actually all have a racial identity, no matter what our race is, because we all are attracted and moved, or it's people who have similar views, lifestyle, identity as us. which is why we see people who are of the same race tend to congregate, right? Not to say that you wouldn't congregate with somebody who looks differently than you, but we see that that's a very natural congregation that happens. And so when a child grows up in a what predominantly white community, but they like me, are a black child, they're associations, their identity and how they relate to the world from how they're being raised are typically those of white people, right? You know, that's how I would have identified going into my early adult years, like you know, sixteen, seventeen, not as a white person, but I might as well have been, because anytime I ran into a black person, I was not connected to that. Like I did not have a cultural connection to a lot of black things. And as I became a young adult and as I met other people who look like me and you know, went to a bar restaurant for the first time, took care of my hair differently, went and experienced cultural food, when it, you know, was hanging around people who had similar challenges to me, like understanding race racial instances and bias from people, like having those experiences actually allowed me to build connection with people who look like me. which then I felt much more secure in how I looked. Right. I was like, my gosh, now I don't just like feel like this fake black person. You know what I mean? Which is happening Which happens as a teenager, right? Yeah, which is happening as company's like Yeah, hundred percent to you. I mean, y you can even think earlier than that a lot of the time because especially now with the internet, like everything is so on such display. So like children are not having this I mean, I had this these challenges as like a teenager, late teenager. Like kids today are having it like way younger. Because they'll they'll understand cultural things much simpler. there's there's all kinds of levels to this. I mean, even just like cultural games. You know what I mean? It's it's just like there are there's so many elements that can s can sometimes get missed if transracial adopties don't grow up in communities in which like people look like them, have that cultural origin. And yeah. It just it becomes a big gap for them and ultimately it does impact the relationship adoptive parents have with their child at some point. because those children go out into the world. Right? They go out into the world and they'll eat they'll one, most commonly run into people who look like them, who they just don't connect with. Mm-hmm. So I see most of the times adoptees retreating from that, which means that they just like avoid Yeah. Black communities, you know, if they're black, like avoid communities that look like them. Or they have the total opposite reaction, which is where they almost like dive in and they almost want to reject the past. Which is, you know, something I did for a little bit too, which is like, you know, I felt like I didn't get any of this, so like I'm just gonna reject everything else and go do this. Right. It's almost like an unhealthy s like kind of jump to the other side. and obviously like it evens out. Yeah. But you know, yeah, there's so many stories of adoptees who like drop out of college and like move like Africa or Asia or something like that, like depending on where they were adopted from. Wow. Because it's just like this I don't understand this at all. And let me just feel like immersed and like just like this this is how I'm supposed to be and I didn't have it growing up and I'm gonna just run to it. and again that's another level of disconnect that can exist with adoptive parents. Are you interested in learning? Yeah. 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Yeah. Wow. So again, the identity question that doesn't disappear. Yeah. We can't put it off. It's everywhere. Yeah. It's it's lit it's literally everywhere. Yeah. Right. And it's if we even zoom back a little bit further, everywhere for everybody. Yeah. Sure. So like the adoption one is just like in your face a little bit more. People who have grown up with their biological family just don't understand some of the things that they've never had to think about. Right. Right. And so That's just the benefit of growing up with your biological family, right? Which is beautiful. But because you've never thought about having matching eyes or matching nose or matching hair or even like hand structure cheeks, mannerisms, that that they those identity challenges just didn't exist for you. Right. So those just show up presently in adoptee very early. But you've still wondered who you are, where you were gonna finish, what profession you were gonna go into, where you're gonna be accepted, right? and so there's a lot that adopted parents can't actually relate to still. but there is these kind of other heightened levels that exist. Amazing. So if parents are considering this journey, in this journey now, and now they're thinking of all these ways that maybe they're not connected to people that look like their kids. Yeah. I guess just give us a starting point, like a You know, is it ever too late? You know, how do we how do we move the first step forward? What do we do too? Absolutely. I I always like to suggest parents to just think about like what things that they already do and are there more like diverse versions of them. So like church is the big one. Whereas like is there just like a more diverse version of the church that you go to? Right? That's like kind of to me, usually like kind of like some of the like low hanging fruit, which is like this is something your family already does. Is there a version of? Where there's more diversity. School can be one, after school programs can be one. like extracurriculars, karate, swimming, sports, things like that. So parents are already doing things with their kids. Parents are already doing it. So you're just looking for the more that you know what I mean? And again, it might just take a little bit of like just Google searching a little bit differently than you would. Not going to maybe what your neighbor goes to, right? you know. Another thing that I think is really helpful is you can find like adoption related stuff. I think that can be you know, I think that's another layer here. It it doesn't help with some of the cultural identity stuff, but I do think that adoptees tend to enjoy growing up around other adoptees. And so you can even think about going to like swan picnics. you know, I think Colby's as the public events here in Lancaster. And in those places there's likely parents who have found stuff, right? They found the barbershop to go to that. really works for their kids. So this is an experience. Kids can met together in monkeys. Exactly. Yeah. Where do you get their hanger down? What have you found that's super helpful for them? Lancaster has like so much cultural stuff too. Like we have like African American food festival every year. We have an AAA C P that does events. We have like all kinds of stuff that exists in the city. People might not know about that people might not know about. They're yeah, exactly. So it's really easy, but anybody in any town can kind of look up those things and find them. Amazing. Yeah. Can you talk for just a minute? We've mentioned Langster a few times. Anything special that you know, 'cause you have an experience at Langster. Yeah. Which my guess is it's not the easiest place to have this experience. You know, Sunday is the most segregated day of the week. Yeah. things right people with their own sort of racial people groups, language groups. You know, so just talk to us a little bit maybe about Lancaster County. Maybe the good Yeah. Well the maybe the good is that in the last you know t fifteen to twenty years Lincoln has changed dramatically. So what exists in terms of opportunities for diversity community, mixed community has dramatically increased, I think, as we've seen the evolution of like Lancaster City. Right? 'Cause even if you go back fifteen, twenty years, Lancaster City like pretty much nothing. And now it's like a hub of so many different things. So really thinking about taking advantage of that. And some people who live on the outskirts of Lancaster City still don't take advantage of that. Okay. So really yeah, so really thinking about that has become a much, you know it's become just like such a such a different place. You know what I mean? Nobody even when I was growing up. Right except for the Fulton. Yeah. Right. And so now there's like so many things you could do down there that are like family friendly. and so I think that's something that I would say is like on the kind of gooder side of Lancaster right now is that there's been a lot of evolution. And that has brought in churches that are more diverse, things like that. I think still some of the challenges are those like outskirts of Lancaster are still very segregated, still very kind of closed off. And and just still very to themselves, right? And so like an opportunity for I think people who live maybe in more of the country area of Lancaster and have adopted kids, mixed kids, things like that, is like there's a really big opportunity for you to, you know, make a more conscious effort to be a part of either something going on in the city, something going on through Swans, something going on through Colby's, really finding intentional efforts to be connected. Because if you're out in those country areas, the truth is there's just not a lot going on in that way for you. Sure. not that there are people of color that live out there sometimes, but it's just it's just not as common, right? and so, you know, an opportunity out there is really to find ways to come in. and I see that that tends to be a challenge for some for some people who live, you know, Peckway is like thirty, forty minutes away. Uh-huh. So a little bit of a commitment to come during a bit going in here. But sure. It is usually a part of like what is needed. I'm not sure I'm answering all your question. I love it. But great. Yeah. It's just like, yeah, there there's still a lot of opportunities, I think, for more community to be built. Yeah. I think more than than I would even realize, right? So much opportunity here. yeah, yeah. So many opportunities for more things to be created, more I mean, even when we think about just like what there is for adoptive families in Lancaster, there isn't like a ton of time. Right. There are a couple of organizations that are doing great work. Like there's definitely an opportunity for more to be created, even just for adoptive families here. I love that. And so yeah, that that can be a charge for you. you know, you need to really create that community. I hear that all the time from parents. It's just like not a ton of local events for them to go to, meetups, community. So we have a good bit of we can use more. Yeah. hundred percent. A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, com compared to some some bigger cities. It should make sense, but like just like not a ton of opportunities for families to connect. And a lot of times I hear the families are looking to connect. Yeah. Right. And so if they're not at one of those churches or communities that adopts a lot, they are looking and eager to find opportunities to connect. So you could put out a little Facebook event that could end up blowing up. Yeah. Which would be amazing. Absolutely. Two more questions. Yeah. It's hard to cut myself off because I'm really learning and enjoying talking to you guys this evening. I guess when we when I think about this issue, of course, thinking about children, you become adults. But I think we're often talking to parents. And I guess I just would love if you could share thoughts you have for other adoptees. Just you know, I think their voice and us listening to them really could be the center of this discussion. I'm not sure it always is. not to say that I don't want to put the adopted families. Yeah. In the limelight as well. But I think sometimes the adoptees are second thoughts. But I just want to focus for a minute, just what words would you have for these kids, for an adults? anything you think that we who are not adopted should know? Yeah. Any anything. Yeah, I mean basically everything I said is like good for the general public to be honest. So you know, everything everything I talked about is really helpful because adoption has so many misconceptions. And if there's if there's one group that harms adoptees more than the adoption community, especially the non-adoption community, because it's viewed as like a gift, fairy tale. Of course you got adopted out of bad situation. Not every adoption Yeah, it's like a hero Disney story thing. And so, you know, one encouragement for adoptees is also to find community of people who understand them. Like that can be a really big benefit to you to find other adult adoptees, to find other, you know Communities where adoption has been a part of their life because a lot of the misunderstanding that even adult adopted run into with trying to process their story and everybody is from people who think they should have no questions or no challenges or no issues because they were adopted. Right. Yeah, exactly. And so it it's it's an it's sometimes I think even more challenging for adoptees to try and express challenges to people who have no connection to adoption. And so, you know, to all young adult adoptees, I always suggest like find a community that truly understands them. Both in therapy when you can find therapists who are adoption competent, but also in your like friendship circles. There's a lot of online support groups for adoptees, a lot of online communities of adoptees. There's also just like any college you go to is gonna have adoptees that are in right. And and many college nowadays have adoption groups. Yeah and so really just like being conscious of the fact that like You know, where when you're struggling with your story, there is support. There are people that understand you and to go surround yourself with those people who are also on the same journey. Like I think that'll make it a lot easier for you to keep digesting and figuring your story as as you go down again. Yeah. So it's never too late, not alone. Yeah, of course. There's hope. People want to connect with you. Yeah, there's always hope. There's always hope. and I guess the last two questions that come to my mind are seeing, is there anything that you think we haven't covered that really should be front of mind? I think you give us a lot of symbols. Yeah, I gonna say, I don't know that I I think I gave you all my front of mind stuff. but yeah, I mean again, it's kind of like the love or fear thing, I think, can always come up. When you're thinking about your own challenges with your child and what to share and all these things, I think are you operating out of love? Are you out of fear? It's a really good starting point question. maybe one of the more powerful things that was shared in this podcast. And so still operating out of parents probably the the main thing that I'd share in parents. Love it. And I love I just am still remaining on by the time when they're 18, an adult. Yeah. They should know what maybe the adult breathing of them. Yeah. And so just that's a really cool figuring out how to get that in over those those years. Absolutely. Yeah. That's kind of amazing. Little by little if you need to, but also like children are much more resilient than we think. And so you know, they could be ready for order information at thirteen fourteen. You know what I mean? So just really being conscious of where your child truly is at. Yeah. I love that. I'm so excited you spent your time with us. The theme of the podcast is what folks doing and how we can make Leinster County healthier. Yeah. So do you have any I think the ability you have to speak your story, this is a political calling out these basic things. really separating what you know making it okay to talk about these things. I just love so much of how you're doing this. But what anything that you can say about how we can make the world a healthier state place or adoptees. Yeah. What else can you do? Final food. You get that. Yeah. I mean, a healthier role for an adoptee is one where they're safe to express the complexities that are going on. Right. Just like for all of us. where, you know, you can think about any health struggle when you have to suppress it, when it feels shameful, when it feels bad or wrong, it creates other health issues, disease, right? and so A safer and healthier world for adopters is one where they're safe to express the complexity of their journey without judgment or shame or fear. And so, you know, the number one thing anybody can do listening to the story is be conscious and rethink their maybe glorified interpretation of adoption. Not to say adoption is bad, but just like literally everything else, adoption has these complicated after effects. And it has a kind of quote unquote downside. Right. It has a loss component to it in every single adoption. Right. And so the more we as a society and community recognize this as their experience and make room for there to be behavioral challenges a part of it, a grief response to it, the safer adopters are to process that and the less shame and guilt that exists for them. Amazing. Yeah. So not a Disney movie. Not a Disney movie. Yeah, that's the first start. Isaac, thank you for spending your time. Absolutely. Appreciate you. Appreciate you just talking as an adoptee, two adoptees, two families. I think it's awesome. Our our neighbors and topped it now all those things. It's huge. Thank you. Thank you so much for spending time with us today. We are grateful for you and hope this episode got you thinking. It's important to remember that the content provided in Lou's Musings is not considered medical advice and no doctor-patient relationship is ever formed by listening. Additionally, the ideas and opinions represented on the show and its guests are not endorsed by Lose Medicine exclusively, and we welcome thinkers of all kinds to engage with us and our audience so that we can all learn together. Once more, thank you so much for joining Lou's Musings. Feel free to share with a friend, and until next time, we are wishing you the best in health, always.