Latest / We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism / Ep. 112: Fine. Let's Talk About Smut.

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Ep. 112: Fine. Let's Talk About Smut. · We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: To the We Are More Pod cast. My name is Alyssa. And my
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: name is Bree. We're two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism. We believe
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach his word. And apparently, that's controversial. Get comfy.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Hello, world. Welcome to the We Are More podcast, where my name's Brian, and that is Alistair. Did I confuse you yet?
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Especially because moments ago, they heard the intro song where we call ourselves Alyssa and Brie. What do you guys think?
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: Do you guys think that we should get a new intro? Because we recorded that back when we were babies.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: We actually went on Fiverr and found the most lovely I think he is Irish man. And he helped us out with the song and putting our voices in that because we wouldn't have known how to do that back then.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: And I wouldn't know how to do it now.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Would you not? I could do it now. I couldn't, like, make a new song. But if you gave me a song, I could stick our voices into it.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Well, let's make one then. Although, I do move towards the Irish, you know? Anything Irish. I'm like, yep. So would you
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: like me to contact that lovely man again and say, hey, We need a new song?
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: Unless you could do it for free, which would be nice. But what song do we want? Some royalty free like here we go. Oh, boy. I sing it.
• 1:40
  No. We get your child to play the piano,
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: whatever I want. Whatever you want, Yeah.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Also, we're related to many musicians. That's true. Are. We could work something out. And I could just inspire it like this.
• 1:56
  Now you mention your name. Hello?
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: You want me to actually mention my name? I didn't think
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: I was part of that. Just get ready. I'm good. Rude. Now that could be the answer.
• 2:13
  No, the truth. Just I'm good.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: People will never know what what this podcast is. They'll be so confused.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: Do we know what it is anymore?
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: That's the same question.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah. We'd just be talking. We've been talking for so long. For so long. Listen, guys.
• 2:31
  I have been house sitting for the past two plus weeks.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's been really annoying.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: And while I do get human interaction through my work, it's not enough human interaction. And I feel like I could just talk and I could talk and I could talk and I could talk. She called me the other day.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: She was gonna come out for dinner. And I was sitting in an auditorium because my daughter has her dress rehearsals going on right now. And I was sitting there, and I'm trying to quietly answer the phone. And she starts shouting through the phone. She goes, look who finally decided to answer her phone.
• 3:09
  And you just kept talking and talking and talking and talking.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: You know what? I always thought that I was like an introverted extrovert. But recently I found out about myself. I think that might be wrong. Yeah.
• 3:24
  I think I might just be an extroverted extrovert.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: See, I'm distinctly an introvert. But you're different. You have some introvert moments. But I think as a rule, you're much more extroverted than I am.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: I know. I don't know what I am. I also used to think that I was much more of a night owl. And I'm not that
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: I'm also not Agedness.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: I'm not an early bird either. I don't wanna wake up. There used to be
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: a meme about that. It was like, I'm not a night owl or an early bird. An always exhausted pigeon or something.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: And that's me. Yep. Yeah. I like to be in bed strictly at 07:30. Like, I don't want to stay out.
• 4:09
  And I also don't wanna wake up in the morning.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: So I thought that was everyone our age, though. Because, I mean, we're not young anymore, folks.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: We're aged. And I thought that was everybody that's our age. But then you were dating some guy and it was like 09:30 and he was like, oh yeah, come out with me and my friends. Know sitting there like
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: he was older than me. I'm like, what is wrong with you? You're not allowed to text me at 09:30 at night No. Asking me to come out. What do you think I'm doing?
• 4:40
  My makeup is off. My bra is off. I am in bed. I am literally actively sleeping. Leave me alone.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: That relationship didn't work out good. No. It didn't. I just couldn't stay awake. Which is a real problem in relationships.
• 4:56
  Yeah. That's a great transition. So if you tuned in last week, we said that we're gonna launch into a little bit of a purity culture series, which we've been talking about doing forever.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: I don't think it can be one episode because the topic is just so vast. Mhmm. So you might hear us talking about sex for, like, seven, eight, nine episodes. I
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: think that might be excessive.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: Not that we haven't talked about it before. We haven't talked about it before. We go. Strapping.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: Well, nope. Yep. No. But today, we're gonna talk about it through the lens of, as the BookTok calls them, spicy books. Spicy books.
• 5:46
  And I think this is an interesting angle to jump in this from because it's purity culture as adults. Mhmm. And a lot of us, if you grew up in evangelical circles, in conservative churches, especially women, had purity culture just, like, thrown on them, and we're still somehow dealing with it. Yeah.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: If you didn't grow up in a conservative faith that really focused on purity culture, it's basically telling specifically girls, young girls, from the day they pop out of the womb that their body is sinful. They are inherently sinful just because of certain body parts that they have. And in order to stay pure and keep your faith strong and your relationship with God strong, that means that you have to cover up and you have to be careful all the time about everything that you do. Because if you step one toe Mhmm. Out of line, you're not only going to wreck your relationship with God, you're gonna wreck someone else's relationship with God too.
• 6:57
  Well, and all of
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: the pressure was on girls. And usually during these purity talks, and we'll get into more of this next week, but usually during these purity talks that they had with very young children at churches, it would be something along the lines of like, girls, it is your responsibility to not let your brothers in Christ stumble.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: Therefore, don't show a shoulder. Certainly never show a boob. My gosh.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: And those ideas aren't just within the church. They also sprinkle into other aspects of your life. I remember going to band camp. Mhmm. Yeah.
• 7:35
  And just in school in general, you know, you have your dress code that's very much geared towards only girls. Mhmm. But at band camp, it's hot. Right? It's a billion degrees.
• 7:46
  It's the middle of the summer. You're outside marching around. Keep in mind, it's that one time at band camp, whatever. But we had this one band mom that would go around and duct tape your bra straps together so that they were hidden underneath the tank top that you were wearing.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: And didn't get permission. Just walked up to you, grabbed your bra straps,
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: and taped them together. It was like a little bit violent. She was mad about it. And also she was
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: the mom of a boy. Mhmm. Which I think is interesting. But basically them saying like, your bra strap could potentially Entice a man. Entice a man.
• 8:28
  Yeah. And therefore, you need to cover up that bra strap. Because that's your fault that that boy had a bad thought Right. About you. Right.
• 8:36
  Or any thought about you.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: Any thoughts at all? No thoughts. Mind you, it was band camp. We were sweaty and disgusting.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: Literally a swamp. Was bad. Disgusting. Bad times. The dorm rooms we stayed in didn't have air conditioning.
• 8:52
  Like, we're disgusting.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It was it was rough. So that's kind of like what we learned as kids. Right? Maybe you did too.
• 9:00
  I think probably a lot of the people that listen to this podcast grew up in that type of situation. But then as you get older, that stuff hangs on to you. You don't just say like, oh, now I'm an adult and can think for myself, or now I'm married or whatever, and I can talk about sex and think about sex, preemptively, mom and dad, again. Just just click off this one. You don't need to
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: listen to this one. This one's not for you.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: Else, let's keep going. So that pops through in things like women feeling shame Mhmm. Around sex, whether it's through their own marriage or through feeling responsible for their husband's whatever he's doing. Or through things like spicy books, where sexual desire can happen for women. And you feel ashamed of it.
• 10:05
  Mhmm.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: That feeling of female desire is inherently sinful.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. So coming at it just from telling my own personal story, because everybody's a little bit different. I'm not sitting here saying, okay, I like to read a romance novel. By the way, if you don't know what a spicy book is Oh, yeah. I probably should have said that to begin with.
• 10:29
  It would be like a romance novel. A book that has adult content. Open door relationships,
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: not necessarily closed door. But I mean, in the book talk Mhmm. Quote unquote community, there's like different levels of spice. Mhmm. Right?
• 10:47
  One one little chili pepper equals like mild amount, maybe a closed door romance. They talk about things, but you don't actually read it. And then the levels go up from there.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: Right. You've got a five spicy pepper situation.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: Yes. And a lot of times, you can read stuff that you didn't even know existed. So I
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: think it's important to tell a little bit of our own stories through this because otherwise it feels just very, you know, out there or whatever. When I was a kid, I read all the time.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: When I was a young warthog. And we would
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: go to the library. We spent a lot of time at the library as kids. And I could pick out a Christian published book without even looking at it. Like, I knew what the spine looked like because that's what I was allowed to read. Now, as a child, I'm not saying I should have been reading spicy books.
• 11:42
  But that came with me to adulthood. Like, oh, I can't go to Target and pick up just anything because who knows what's in there? And then I bought I think the first non Christian book series that I picked up and read, probably not the first one ever, but the first one that was notable was Fourth Wing series. I'm sure you guys have seen those. They're all over the book tock.
• 12:08
  There's like three of them. They're about dragons. It's a whole thing. Right? If you're not into fantasy, you might not like that.
• 12:13
  But I read those, and those are some spicy books. Probably not the most spicy in the world, but there's some to it. And I felt really guilty about that. I felt weird about it. I felt uncomfortable.
• 12:27
  And then I had to take a step back and ask, well, why do I feel uncomfortable? Do I feel uncomfortable because I think my husband would be uncomfortable with it? Do I feel uncomfortable because it's sinful? And I had to really wrestle with that and figure out don't look at me like that. And figure out how I felt about that.
• 12:52
  Because the Bible doesn't say, and Alyssa, don't read things that have sex scenes in them. It doesn't say that. So you have to sit with it yourself and ask, what's okay for me? For me, I grew up hating reading.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. Hated it. Did not want to do it. Now, that could be because it took me a long time to learn. That could be it.
• 13:16
  But, again, the only books that we were allowed to read were Christian published books. And when I tried to go through those, I absolutely hated them. I got through like a chapter and a half and I was like, this makes me wanna run-in the road. No, thank you. So I started listening to audiobooks.
• 13:41
  I would say a couple of years ago. And the ones that I started listening to were the popular books now. So like, It Ends With Us. Mhmm. And I think I read the Sarah Pinborough book.
• 13:56
  And they're both some some spice. I think everybody knows Colleen Hoover has a little bit of spice. And I did very much wanna keep that hidden and secret. Mhmm. Because I felt so much shame about it.
• 14:09
  Yeah. Did I also listen to the 50 Shades of Grey books? Yeah. I did.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: Because I wanted to know what was in those things.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: So the first series of books that I actually physically read were the Bridgerton books. And it was after the series came out and I was like, I want to know more of the story. I like the story. I like the family. I want to read these books.
• 14:37
  But I wanted to keep it a secret from the family, from you even. So I had ordered them from thrift books. And there's eight books in this series,
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: It's big
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: series. Yeah. There's a lot. So I think I ordered all eight. So this massive shipment came in.
• 14:53
  And I remember you were like, what did you order? And I was like, hey, they're the Bridgerton books.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Mind you, we had both watched the series at this point.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: I know. But what's so strange is in this culture, watching stuff Mhmm. Is more okay. Not not everything. I'm not saying everything, but watching a rom com.
• 15:19
  Mhmm. Like, How to Lose a Guy in ten Days. Mhmm. Or anything Sandra Bullock. That's fine.
• 15:26
  But the second you put it into a book Mhmm. Less fine. Right. And why is that? Not sure.
• 15:34
  But yeah. Then Alyssa and I both were like, why are we so Weird about this. Why are we so weird about it? Why are we so full of shame Mhmm. Around the idea of just reading books.
• 15:46
  Mhmm. We're just reading books.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, the question starts to become what is sin? Because I think we treat this as sinful for women. And you have to ask, okay, well, what if we pull the whole thing apart, what is sinful about reading this book? So there's a couple of aspects that I think most Christians would point to.
• 16:13
  And they have differing levels of validity depending on who you are. Because again, the Bible doesn't necessarily have a black and white rule for this. So the first thing that I think people would point to is lust. So lust, if you're not a churchy person, that's not a word that normal society is using a ton. And people know
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: what lust means?
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know, man. Our president doesn't think people think know that there's a b at the end of the word dumb. How dumb of him. So the idea of lustfulness is looking at someone else sexually.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Just like something that stirs some sexual desire.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Now Jesus did talk about this because a lot of times people will pull things from the Old Testament or Revelation or something. But Jesus himself did talk about this in Matthew five twenty eight. He says, but I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Now note that he is specifically talking to men here. I'm not saying women are getting out scot free, but I just think that's interesting to note.
• 17:25
  Now there's a couple of interesting parts of this. So first of all, like I said, he's talking specifically to men, but a large part of it is because in this culture, women are treated as property. Women are treated as property, but also not human. Mhmm. So the word that he's using here is more about possession.
• 17:48
  So it's not just don't look at someone in passing and think, oh, they're really attractive. Right. Mhmm. It's I actively want to possess that person and sleep with that person.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: Which I think is similar to what women deal with today, like walking down the street Mhmm.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: Catcalling. Right. Right. Right. Not okay.
• 18:12
  And that is, he's saying, sinful.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. And I think that ties back into self control. Mhmm.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: And Jesus' whole theme of protecting the vulnerable. Mhmm. Because this was happening to women all the time. This happens to women all the time now.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: So he wasn't just talking about, like, don't feel any sexual feelings at all. He was talking about don't go harm someone else. Don't think you have a right to someone else because you have feelings.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: Which I think is so tied back to purity culture. Again, women having to be responsible for the feelings of men. Okay, if you feel that certain way, I guess that is how you feel. I can't control it. But do not then think that you get the right to hurt me, possess me, do anything to me.
• 19:05
  Right. Don't talk to me. Don't look at me. Go away.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: And that's the whole message of the podcast, really. Now, another verse that gets pulled there's quite a few passages of the bible. Bree's got some sexier passages of the bible we'll get to. But I've got the pure ones.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: What does that say about us?
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: So one of the ones is first Corinthians seven three through four. And this is one that gets used against women a lot. And we only hear the first part of the verse. So I'm gonna read it to you. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband.
• 19:46
  The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. Now this is Paul talking. This is first Corinthians. So again, this is not Jesus.
• 20:01
  Don't confuse the two. I'm not saying Paul wasn't wise, but I am saying he wasn't Jesus. But what we hear a lot when this verse gets brought up is that the wife owes the husband her body. And in purity culture, in
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: a lot of the Christian marriage books
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: It will tell you, make yourself available to your husband a 100% of the time. Mhmm. The idea of marital rape wasn't a thing until recently.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Until isn't in a lot of places.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: I think people on the outside don't understand that. When we talk about purity culture and how it's so damaging, it's because of stuff like that. Mhmm. Where we're told, women, you don't own your body anymore. Your husband does.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: Right. Well, it's the same thing as when during the last election in The United States, men were going online and saying, your body, my choice.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: Mhmm. Yep. It's the same concept. Or when you're younger as a girl, I don't know if boys know this, but women are told, would your future husband like that? Mhmm.
• 21:05
  So based on your choices, your tattoos, your piercings, the way you cut your hair, dye your hair, will your future husband approve of that? Mhmm. So now you owe something to someone who doesn't even exist yet.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Yep. And in these verses, that's what we hear is women are owned by men. And yet, that's not what this is saying at all. In fact, what it's saying is, in a way, you belong to each other.
• 21:37
  You've chosen to create a relationship with this person. And I don't want to go so far as to say like, my body belongs to my husband's and my husband's belongs to me. No. We are our own individual people. But you choose a life of mutuality.
• 21:54
  You choose a life of choosing each other and decisions being made together.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: I think so much of this world could be fixed if we just taught people to respect each other. Rather than women are property. And that's all feminism is about. Right? We want equality.
• 22:17
  We want to respect everyone. Rather than just say women are less than. Mhmm.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: Well, let's think about what Paul is saying here. Because on the surface, it still hurts a little bit. It still is icky to be like, well, my body belongs to him and his belongs to me. But think about what that would mean in theory. If I'm looking at someone and I'm like and I I just don't like to say it.
• 22:40
  It feels icky. But if I were to say, okay, I belong to this person and this person belongs to me, I want to treat them in a respectful, kind, loving, caring way because that's how I want them to treat me. So mutually, we are going to respect each other. Mutually, we are gonna consider each other's opinions because if I'm abusive to them, then they can be abusive back to me. Mhmm.
• 23:08
  Why would I want that? So Paul is saying something very radical here. Because, again, women are being treated as property. And you have to see this through the lens of their culture. So again, that, like, ownership language that is very uncomfortable for probably most of us now isn't really applicable.
• 23:28
  But the base message of respect each other, consider each other, worry about each other, that you can pull from
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: it. Mhmm.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: Now, I think it's really interesting to talk about purity culture within Bible context because Brie has some spicy verses for us.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: Well, I think it's hilarious because the idea of purity culture didn't come around until like the twentieth century. We forget that the Bible is literally bursting with sex. What a way to put that. The Bible is full of sex. And that makes that makes the Christian people nervous.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: And so we skip those parts or we soften those parts or we put shame on women because that makes us more comfortable with what's actually in the Bible. Mhmm. Alyssa and I know firsthand. Song of Solomon. What a trip.
• 24:22
  Alyssa and I side note, we may have said this before on the podcast.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: I feel like we
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: have, but tell the story. Alyssa and I always shared a room growing up. And it was like our bedtime, but we didn't wanna go to bed. And so we're like, you know what? Let's be good little Christian girls.
• 24:36
  And let's I know that we're supposed to be sleeping right now, but we're not tired. So let's read the Bible. Let's spend some time reading the Bible together. And so Alyssa opened the Bible up to, you know The middle.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: The middle. Magic Bible time. And it
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: was Song of Solomon. If you don't if you're not familiar, that's the sexy book. So keep in mind, I'm like eight. Yeah. We were little.
• 25:02
  Alyssa's like 11. And
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: we're reading about boobs. I distinctly remember the word breasts. Yeah.
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: I'm like, woah. I was like
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: but I think we kept reading because we're like, well, it's the Bible. I mean
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Our idea of traditional marriage, if you really want to talk about traditional, you go back to the Bible. Right? We want to be Christ centered. Let's go back to the Bible.
• 25:30
  Okay, multiple wives. All right. Husbands sleeping with servants because they're concerned about their bloodline. Or you have people like David and Bathsheba. We did like
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: a whole episode on the trials and tribulations of that relationship. Tamar and Judah, we also talked about them. Song of Solomon, too. A really interesting point about that book that I didn't know until I started researching for this episode is that there's two people speaking in Song of Solomon. It's like a conversation, kind of.
• 26:07
  And the woman speaks more than the man. So it is the sexy book. She's expressing desire. She initiates things. The second verse in the whole book says, let him kiss me with the
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: kisses of his mouth. I mean, like What else is he gonna kiss you with?
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: Don't don't ask that question. Don't ever ask that question. She describes his body graphically. She seeks him out. She has sexual desire.
• 26:40
  And there isn't this sense of shame or embarrassment or, I shouldn't be thinking this. My little heart is fluttering. You know? She kind of is the active person there. And we don't talk about that ever.
• 26:56
  To the point that, like, even Brie and I, who do this podcast,
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: did not know. Yeah. Because we keep that little bit a secret. Mhmm. Ezekiel, the book of Ezekiel, the prophet uses some incredibly graphic sexual imagery to describe Israel's unfaithfulness to God.
• 27:14
  Mhmm. It compares Jerusalem as an unfaithful wife.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: So the language isn't meant to like, oh, turn you on. It's meant to shock you. Mhmm. So God describes Jerusalem as an abandoned infant whom he rescues, raises, and eventually enters into the covenant with. Then the imagery takes a little bit of a a turn.
• 27:39
  Mhmm.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: I don't like this.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Jerusalem is portrayed as a wife who uses her beauty to attract lovers. Pursues other nations and gods. Commits adultery repeatedly. Even pays her lovers instead of being paid like a prostitute.
• 27:56
  So she's hiring prostitutes. So that's in the Bible.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: And that's so interesting because purity culture today doesn't let you reference any of that stuff. Now, he wasn't being like sex positive here, but we couldn't reference any of that stuff as Christians. Mhmm. We don't talk about those verses. You're never gonna hear that preached from a pulpit unless Brie and I started church someday.
• 28:23
  And then, boy oh boy, you all have to come.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: Can you imagine? We're gonna pull out some wild songs to use as worship songs.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: It's gonna be a trip. It'll be Mostly very VeggieTales. We'll go through the bible verse by verse and just make you sit with every single one of them. Some will be really boring, but some are gonna be exciting. Now, there's also a verse in Proverbs.
• 28:49
  It's Proverbs five eighteen through 19. And it's a father talking to his son. And again, people are much more open than they would be today. So this is something that a father today probably wouldn't say to his son. But the verse says, rejoice in the wife of your youth.
• 29:06
  May her breasts satisfy you always. So fathers out there, if you need some biblical advice. But that's the thing is desire in the Bible is not treated as something horrible.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: And I think it's just we talk about this a 100% of the time. Mhmm. It's power and control.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: How are we maintaining the power and the control of the church, the institution? Not how are we living our lives as Jesus did. How can we be better Christians? It's how do we protect the institution through power and control. And so that's keeping someone else down.
• 29:53
  And in this situation, it's women.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, think about how much power and control Christian men have in sex. Mhmm. We teach women that they have no sexual desire. That any time that they enter into a sexual relationship, it is for the man.
• 30:13
  And so they have no autonomy. They have no power. So people like Doug Wilson and other similar patriarchal pastors will say things like sex can't be mutual because it's the man dominating the woman. And what does that do to women? It teaches them that they are owned by someone else.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: And that their faith is tied to them being dominated by these men. That their only way to Jesus is through men. Yeah. And as Christian people, we look at the FLDS. I don't know if you've watched the newest documentary on Netflix.
• 31:01
  It's the fundamental church of the Latter day Saints. Where you have like people like Warren Jeffs, who had like 75 wives, many of them underage. But if you hear those wives speak, they say, my only way to getting saved Mhmm. Is through this man. Well, in a maybe slightly less intense way, the Christian people are doing the same thing.
• 31:24
  Where they say that your faith is tied to how much you can submit to your husband. That's your only way to salvation. That's your only way to God. And so we treat female desire as sinful because that gives women a little bit of power. And that's why you see so many Christian women only reading these closed door romances.
• 31:48
  And the idea that a man could be respectful towards a woman Yes. That is desirable enough to
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: Care for her. Mhmm.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: And what I think is interesting about these books too is you see women reading these books, even the spiciest books, right? We don't then go and catcall men. Right. We're not out there like,
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: woah, hey.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: Rubbing up our engines when we see men.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: At least not most of us.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: Not most of us. But
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: men are not the same. I think it's because women are taught self control from a very young age. Yeah. And so when you open up this world of, oh, hey, I can have sexual agency. I can have desire.
• 32:36
  It doesn't suddenly become a problem. With men, it's a problem because they weren't taught self control.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: And think of kind of almost the radicalness of spicy books in a world where women can't have desire. Because if suddenly you read a book and you find that now you have desire because of that book, now you find that you can have desire, and that takes away some of a man's power, if his power is dependent on you being sexually submissive. You know?
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: It's it does threaten the system. It does threaten that way of life. And I'm not saying, oh, you need to do this as a feminist. Like, live your
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: best life. But But having the choice.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: Yes. The choice to do something for yourself. Not dependent on a man, not dependent on your partner, to do something that you enjoy. You nasty. That's not what I meant.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: I also wanna talk about how, as a people, we're more comfortable with violence than we are with sex. Yeah. We are way more comfortable watching a violent movie or reading violence in books where there's mass murders and pillaging and fire. That we're way more comfortable with.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: You'll let your kids come in a room probably when there's something violent on the screen and you don't hurry to pause it. But the second, if your kid came in a room with some sexy scene was on,
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: close your eyes. Well, it is interesting because almost any other sin we're more comfortable with. Mhmm. And I'm not saying like, oh, have your kids sit and watch a sex scene or anything. No.
• 34:41
  That's weird. Let's as adults, we're relatively comfortable if someone is stealing something on the screen, even if it's justified. Think of Aladdin,
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: for instance.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: What? We're pretty fine with him stealing the bread, but that is a biblical sin. Or Les Mis. Or Les Mis.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: Two four six zero one.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: There's plenty of things that we're fine with watching and reading about that are distinct sins. Now, I'm not saying that this is a sin, but other things that are straight up 10 commandments, we're pretty fine with Mhmm. Until it hits something that makes us uncomfy.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: And I think it's important to talk about what we kinda started this before, but like, what is sin? So there's a few categories. Right? The first one is distinct sins. The Bible says black and white, this is right, this is wrong.
• 35:44
  And things like like adultery, theft, lying, exploitation, stuff like that. Like, things where there's no question about it. Those are pretty simple. And as Christians, we often want everything to feel that way. Because it's easy, and you don't have to think about it.
• 36:03
  You can really simply say like, nope. God said don't do that. Black and white. But unfortunately, there's not a lot of those.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: It's more gray area. And we also focus so much on what he didn't say, but not on what he did say.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: Which is love God, love others.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: Mhmm.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: We're pretty comfortable breaking those rules.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: Right? Is everything that you do in your life loving towards others? We've done many episodes on what love is and what that should look like. But I often find that the church, as an institution, does not act very loving towards people. Mhmm.
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: Pretty much always. Pretty much always. Now the second category of, let's say, sin with little quotes, would be like wisdom issues. So that's it depends on you. So things like drinking alcohol or getting on social media or violent movies or spicy books, stuff like that, where there is no distinct yes, do this, no, don't do this.
• 37:16
  It's you sitting with yourself and saying, is this okay for
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: me? Mhmm.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Because for some of us, drinking alcohol doesn't cause a problem. It doesn't cause us to turn from God. The the fruits of our spirit stay the same. Mhmm.
• 37:29
  For others of us, it does cause a problem. And so it is okay for you to say, for me, this is not okay. This is not something I'm gonna have in my life.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: I don't participate with this, but that doesn't mean I'm going to force that on other people. Right.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: Maybe for you, reading a spicy book would make you sexually aggressive. I don't know. Maybe you're out catcalling men. I don't know. And it is okay to say, for me, this is not something that I I should have in my life.
• 38:03
  Or even, this is simply not something I'm comfortable with in my life. Or I don't enjoy. Right. What's not okay is to take these, this second category, and say, because I've chosen this for my life, I'm going to now put it on everybody else. Now the third category is stuff we've added entirely that's just not there.
• 38:25
  Okay? So Brie and I talk a lot about not getting too close to sin. And that basically, from our own childhoods, feels like when people would say, the Bible doesn't want you to get drunk or be out of control. Therefore, you shouldn't drink ever at all. Hey, guys.
• 38:46
  If you happen to hear little little side note.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: If you happen to hear a really aggressive bird in this podcast, it's not our fault. It's not our fault. It's just nature.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: It's also not us. I promise. Although Brie can do a pretty convincing chicken sound. Yeah. Anyway, back to Sin.
• 39:12
  So it's the bubble that we put around sin. Don't get too close because if you get too close, you're automatically gonna be pulled in and you're gonna be sinful. Mhmm. And that begs the question, is everything sinful? Are we just constantly sinning?
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: Well, think the Christian stance is yes. Mhmm. You're born into this world a sinful being. But you also have to wonder like, what did that baby do? Mhmm.
• 39:44
  What did that baby do? You know? So that kind of question is gonna throw you right into deconstructions.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: It's it is a complicated one because I the churches that we grew up in, it was the message was you wake up sinning, you sin through the whole day, you go to bed sinning.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: And you should pray for forgiveness. Constantly. Constantly.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: But I a, that's not how God sees us at all. Because God sees us through the lens of Jesus. Mhmm. Which means that he sees us as his perfect creation. But on the flip side, if all I'm ever doing is constantly sinning, I'm never doing a single thing right.
• 40:30
  Why am I trying? Yeah. Like, what's the point? So I think we've seen this really wrong in this view of like, everything's a sin. Mhmm.
• 40:41
  Because you're getting too close to sin because other people might think you're sinning because whatever. I think there's a lot that just is living life. Is just being a person. Ugh. The human experience.
• 40:53
  And what does it do to life if you can get rid of some of that guilt? Mhmm. I think the church
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: survives on the shame of you. And that's what purity culture produces. It produces shame rather than holiness.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: And you need to take a step back from that and say, is this working? Mhmm. No. Is this bringing me closer to God? Is it bringing me closer to God or is it making me want to die?
• 41:26
  Mhmm. And there are things in your life, if you grew up in purity culture, which you are gonna have to sit with and say, How has this affected me in ways I didn't even know? Yeah. I didn't even know that my hate for my body came from purity culture. Mhmm.
• 41:45
  That my shame around sex came from purity culture. That my idea that spicy books are wrong is
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: from purity culture.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: Out and read yourself some Bridgerton, if you want to.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: This too, I'm gonna get into a little bit more next week. But just as like a precursor, I think it's important to look at how men are addressed in this context, in the sexual context, versus women. Now you'll see absolutely countless support groups in churches for men that deal with porn. Yep. Right?
• 42:21
  I mean, it is treated like an inevitability. Like, they are definitely going to deal with this. And it's not really shameful. It's a struggle. Yeah.
• 42:33
  Right? Yeah. Whereas women, the moment that you pick up a spicy book and read a spicy book, it is so sinful and shameful that you can't there's not gonna be a support group for you. You can't even address it. You need to hide in
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: a corner. Well, because we assume that women should be meek, that women should be holy, that women should be x, y, z. And in that same breath, we also assume that men are going to be sexual beings that can't control themselves. And
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: something else that we'll get into more next week is that those two things aren't the same. Men's sexual urges are treated as struggle and women's are treated as sin. But also, porn is not the same as a spicy book. No. The porn industry is inherently exploitative and does create, like, a lust after a person.
• 43:40
  And often depicts women as objects. Mhmm. Submissive. There's so many issues with it. Mhmm.
• 43:47
  Whereas you pick up many of these books. I'm not gonna say every single one, but like many of these books, a, they're fictional. These are not real people, folks.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: I would love just to just say that one more time for the people in the back.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: These aren't real people. No. They are fake. Pretend people. None of them well, I suppose it depends on what sort of book you're reading.
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: But if you're reading
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: fiction, they're not real people. And also, the books that I read, anyway, depict very healthy relationships, very mutual relationships. And I think they give women words to say, hey, this is what I want. Because we weren't taught that.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: To vocalize? Yeah. Mhmm.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: We were not taught and I don't know if any women are being taught this. I'm not just saying the church here. I think women are so afraid of sex oftentimes that we all just kind of hide. But it gives you words to say, this is something I might want, and this is something I don't want. Or
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: if you are reading it as a younger person, you can look at these books and say, this depicts a healthy relationship. This depicts a not healthy relationship. So that can give you some tools in your toolbox to say, this is a healthy relationship if I choose to pursue a relationship. This is the type of qualities in a person that I want, and these are the qualities that I don't want. Or even further, this is normal, and this is not normal.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: Mhmm. Now, just to close us out, because we're gonna talk more about this next week, so we don't have to get into every single thing.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: Well, I
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: thought we did. I mean, we could, but we're gonna be here a long time. A three hour extravaganza. No. I want ice cream.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: But I'm gonna ask you guys a couple questions to think about throughout your week at the this is this is my pastoral moment. Are you ready?
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: And so what we have learned
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: with lies. Okay. You ready? What do you want? What a girl wants Oh, boy.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: What a girl needs.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: We're ending on all the songs here, folks. Yeah. Well, you did it. If there was no restrictions even say, if I didn't feel that God was restricting this, what would I want? Because it's okay to ask that question.
• 46:10
  It's not sinful to ask that question and then
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: to take a step back
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: and say, what do I want through the lens of Jesus? So sit with that. What do I want? I'm not sitting here saying every romance novel depicts a healthy relationship.
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: That yeah. That's absolutely true. Have you read Icebreaker?
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So what do you want out of a relationship if you want a relationship at all? Do you want a relationship at all?
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: Is the only reason you might want a relationship because you think it would be financially a lot easier? Not that you necessarily want a person.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: Is female desire sinful? Is male desire sinful? If male desire isn't sinful, then female desire isn't sinful. And does the bible call this sin? And I guess the last one, who does your body belong to?
• 47:02
  Oh. It's not your partner. First of all, I guess, it's God. That's awkward. But also, it's yourself.
• 47:11
  Mhmm. And we'll talk more about that next week and why it is important to really, really believe that.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: Mhmm.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: And how not believing that gets you into some dangerous situations. Girl preach. Hallelujah. So we will come back to purity culture next week. I feel like weirdly, despite the fact that this is like a heavy topic, we've had more fun this week.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: Well, it's because I'm back. Yeah. Guess who's back? Haven't been
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: gone for them, though. You've just been gone for me. Oh.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: See, it's fun for you because I have a lot of pent up Words. Words? That you guys get to experience. So you're welcome. For you.
• 47:55
  Alright. We'll talk to you guys next week. Enjoy your lives. Read a book. Enjoy literacy.
• 48:03
  Alright then. Love you. Bye. Love you. Bye.