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Kyle Norman on Finding God when Faith Feels Hard · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:12
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:43
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
0:45
>> Loren: Today, Martha Tatarnic welcomes the Reverend Kyle
0:48
Norman to the show. Kyle is a
0:51
priest, author and speaker. He holds a bachelor's
0:54
degree in philosophy, a master's in divinity,
0:57
and a doctorate in spiritual formation. He
1:00
currently lives in Kamloops, British Columbia with his wife
1:03
and son. Currently, Kyle is The rector of
1:06
St Paul's Cathedral and Dean of the Territory of
1:08
the People. Kyle is also the author of
1:11
Alive, Loved and Finding Jesus When
1:14
Faith is Hard, which tackles the tricky issues of
1:17
feeling discouraged in our faith. As
1:20
always, please take a moment to.
1:21
>> Loren Richmond: Rate and review the show and share.
1:24
>> Loren: Future Christian with a friend. You can connect with
1:26
Loren, Martha, and Future Christian on Instagram.
1:29
Thanks so much for joining us as.
1:31
>> Loren Richmond: We faithfully discern the future of the church.
1:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I'm your
1:46
host for today's episode, Martha
1:48
Tatarnic And I'm so very happy to be joined
1:52
today by the Very Reverend Kyle
1:54
Norman. We are fellow
1:57
colleagues in the Anglican Church of Canada.
2:00
I don't think that we have actually met in
2:03
person, but we have talked over the years
2:06
and, uh, had some, um. Fun
2:08
church nerd moments.
2:10
>> Kyle Norman: Exactly. Yes. I don't. We haven't, um. Yeah, no, we
2:13
haven't met in person, but I've always enjoyed
2:16
chatting with you when we get to geek out over stuff. So it's
2:19
my pleasure to be here. So thank you very much for having
2:21
me.
2:23
>> Martha Tatarnic: All right, well, we have some exciting things to talk
2:25
about today, namely your brand new
2:28
book, uh, Alive, Loved
2:31
and Free. But we're going to get to that in a moment
2:34
because it's important to just give
2:36
our listeners, our audience, a sense
2:39
of who you are and, uh, what you're about.
2:42
So, Kyle, maybe you can share
2:45
with all of us a little bit about your faith journey,
2:48
what that has looked like in the past and what that
2:51
looks like now.
2:52
>> Kyle Norman: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I grew up in
2:54
the Anglican Church. Ah. My first
2:57
memories were sitting in the front of the church, uh,
3:00
reading the liturgical book. So before Sunday
3:03
school, I would see how far I could get before I had to go
3:06
down. Uh, and so it was always.
3:09
>> Martha Tatarnic: That really says a lot I have to say.
3:12
>> Kyle Norman: Yeah, exactly. Um, and so just grew
3:15
up in the church and spent some time as a youth worker.
3:17
Had the call to ministry when I was in grade 10,
3:21
um, and then seminary and I was
3:24
in a church in the B.C. then I was 13 years in
3:27
Calgary and have now moved into
3:30
being the rector of St Paul's
3:32
Cathedral and the dean of the
3:35
diocese. So I have quite the
3:38
complicated role but I get to talk with a
3:41
wide variety of people in the church.
3:44
Ministers, uh, both um, lay and
3:47
ordain new um members
3:49
joining the Anglican Church, um, and some of
3:52
our rural areas just going to the church that's there.
3:55
And so it's quite a unique kind of thing.
3:58
So uh, it's been a fun ride so
4:00
far.
4:02
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well just a couple of uh, little follow
4:05
up things about what you just shared. It's
4:07
amazing how many people get their
4:10
call in that age range. It was the same for
4:13
me. I was 15, it was grade
4:16
10. Um, and I've
4:19
talked to so many people that it's that age,
4:21
it's 15. Um, and not just like call
4:24
to ministry but like call to
4:27
a variety of like vocations.
4:30
So I just had to comment on that because I find
4:33
it remarkable. And then because our
4:36
listeners aren't uh, you know, all Anglican or
4:38
even primarily Anglican.
4:40
Can you just say a little bit more about what that
4:43
role of dean is? Because not everybody
4:45
would know what that title ah is.
4:48
>> Kyle Norman: Sure. Thank you. Yeah. So the dean in
4:51
the Anglican context is
4:54
um, so it's an area role. So we are
4:57
headed by a bishop and the bishop is the
5:00
senior pastor amongst the pastors and the one who
5:03
kind of heads up the diocese.
5:06
And the dean is kind of like the second in command.
5:09
And so I help the bishop um,
5:12
navigate the complexity of ministry in the
5:15
diocese. And so um, we have
5:18
about 14 parishes and
5:21
31 different congregations in the territory of the people
5:24
where I am it's a smaller diocese and
5:27
so I help, I deal with the clergy, I help
5:30
manage conflicts if they arrive
5:33
or maybe we should say when they arrive.
5:35
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, when.
5:37
>> Kyle Norman: And uh, then I, yeah so
5:40
I aid the bishop, um, and I
5:42
take some things that I can do so that she
5:45
is freed up to do only the things that the bishop can
5:48
do.
5:50
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, that's great. That's just helpful for our
5:53
listeners to kind of have a sense of how our
5:55
Anglican polity works.
5:57
>> Kyle Norman: Yes, exactly.
5:59
>> Martha Tatarnic: So Kyle, is there a spiritual practice that, uh,
6:02
you're finding particularly meaningful right now,
6:05
particularly as you navigate those
6:08
various roles and, uh, leadership.
6:11
>> Kyle Norman: Yeah. I have always been
6:14
a fan of morning prayer.
6:17
Um, and um, like again, as an
6:19
Anglican, from the liturgical book, so not just praying in the
6:22
morning, but doing this daily
6:25
office. And so, um, that's
6:28
always been kind of sustaining for
6:31
me. And it goes up and down depending on the
6:33
busyness in the seasons. But it
6:36
really helps me to
6:39
be able to do that, um, in
6:42
the morning before I go to my phone, before I check my
6:45
emails, before I do anything, to be able to
6:48
go and sit down and
6:51
engage in this time of
6:54
prayer. Um, it helps settles
6:57
me and it helps prepare me for what I
6:59
might be facing.
7:03
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, um, one of the things that I love
7:05
about doing this podcast is noting those
7:08
connections, like, across the various
7:12
conversations that we have and uh,
7:14
especially because we have conversations
7:17
across a variety of denominations. I have said this
7:20
so many times that I feel like I'm beginning to sound like,
7:23
uh, an advertisement for the daily office.
7:26
But so many people name that
7:29
as like the practice that is
7:32
grounding and like connecting for
7:35
them and not just Anglicans. Like, I find it totally
7:38
remarkable.
7:39
>> Kyle Norman: It's fabulous. Part of my, when, uh, I did
7:42
my doctorate, part of my doctoral research was taking a group
7:45
of people and leading them in morning
7:47
prayer for ten weeks.
7:50
Um, in this research study I had to do. And by week
7:53
three or four, the majority of
7:56
them had said, this is a
7:59
defining practice of my life. That, that
8:02
I, that is, um, one person
8:05
said morning prayer has hacked my
8:07
morning. Right. Because it just, it reframed
8:10
everything. Right. And so it's, it's really a
8:13
powerful activity.
8:16
>> Martha Tatarnic: So future Christian listeners, if you
8:19
haven't tried the daily office, it might
8:22
be something to really consider because I,
8:25
I think that this is a, a message that we
8:28
keep getting across our various guests.
8:31
It's pretty cool.
8:31
>> Kyle Norman: Absolutely.
8:34
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, so like I said at the beginning, we are here
8:36
to talk about your brand new book
8:39
called Alive, Loved and
8:41
Free. And um, I
8:44
am really grateful that you sent me an advance copy.
8:47
I had an opportunity to read it. It is such a
8:50
personal book and it is such a pastoral
8:53
book. Like, it is just
8:56
like exploding with heart for
8:59
God's people is how I would define
9:01
it. So maybe you
9:04
can just get us into uh, the
9:07
premise of the book, especially like, what prompted
9:10
you're writing it.
9:11
>> Kyle Norman: Yeah, so what?
9:14
So the book follows my
9:17
journey of dealing
9:20
with, um, or going through a period
9:23
of time which was the hardest kind of
9:25
spiritual time that I've ever Been a part of dealing, um,
9:29
with my wife's cancer diagnosis and
9:31
subsequent, um, chemotherapy
9:34
and all of that. And I'm very, very clear that this
9:37
is my story as. As
9:40
priest and as caregiver. It's not her story.
9:43
Um, she gets to tell her story.
9:46
Um, and I'm also clear, like, I had the better deal of
9:49
this, right? Like, she had chemotherapy and
9:52
nausea and hair loss. And, you
9:55
know, I struggled with prayer,
9:58
like, but, you know, I
10:01
was unprepared for
10:04
the. Just the amount
10:07
of spiritual upheaval I would end up
10:09
in, um, having to walk with my wife through
10:12
this. I talked about morning prayer, and I just.
10:15
I couldn't pray. Like, my. That
10:17
liturgy just dried up.
10:20
And, um, I had such a hard
10:23
time dealing with everything
10:25
that m. It really changed the
10:28
way that I understand
10:33
ministry and how to pastor people in
10:36
the midst of this
10:39
seemingly difficult time in their lives.
10:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. So it was really, like, a matter
10:47
of, like, the rubber hitting
10:50
the road for you in terms of things that
10:53
maybe had been theoretical or, like, at
10:56
a distance and suddenly or living it, uh, is
10:59
that fair to say?
11:00
>> Kyle Norman: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, um,
11:03
you know, like, it's easy. So my wife is
11:06
diagnosed on Maundy Thursday. And so part of this is
11:09
also, like, part of the book takes my
11:12
journey and my struggles and pairs it with the
11:15
great three days. So Maundy Thursday, Good
11:17
Friday, and Holy Saturday. And that's how I structure the book.
11:21
But, yeah, up until that point,
11:24
you know, I could make my solemn
11:26
meditations on Maundy Thursday and Good Friday from
11:29
the ease of my seat. Right. And it
11:32
was all very, you know, theological and
11:35
biblical and, oh, it's so great. But it was very
11:38
easy. Um, and then in the midst of that
11:41
time, feeling just
11:44
almost probably for the first time, feeling this
11:46
visceral, I have no clue what to
11:49
do, and I have no clue where God is in the
11:52
midst of this. Um, and
11:54
so very, very personal.
11:58
And because we don't always talk about
12:01
these kind of things in the church, um, in any
12:04
sort of. Kind of real way,
12:06
um, again, was completely unprepared
12:09
for, um, what was coming.
12:13
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. So let's take that apart a little bit
12:15
more. Um,
12:16
um, like,
12:19
what are the things that we're missing? Like, certainly
12:22
we have a faith and a tradition
12:25
that, you know, keeps, like, our mortality
12:28
and the frailty of life quite
12:30
viscerally in front of us. Uh, we're recording this the day
12:33
after Ash Wednesday, which, um,
12:36
you know, like, we get to show up and be
12:39
told you're gonna die.
12:42
So.
12:43
>> Kyle Norman: Sure.
12:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah, here's some ashes.
12:46
It's, uh, not gonna last. Right.
12:49
Like, we do, we have a lot of
12:51
honesty in our tradition that I think is, like,
12:54
quite in contrast to the world
12:57
around us, um, which has a bit
13:00
of an allergy to talking about
13:03
aging and, um,
13:06
frailty and death. So, like,
13:08
what. What would you identify as kind of the
13:11
missing pieces? Uh,
13:14
uh, like in.
13:17
In what we're not talking about and. And how we're
13:20
not kind of engaging people.
13:23
>> Kyle Norman: Well, and that's. And that's. I think it's hard to.
13:26
It's hard to pick apart in some sense. You know,
13:28
it's. I know that for myself, part
13:31
of my struggle was that I
13:34
had adopted a
13:36
personality that. And maybe because, you
13:39
know, because I'm the priest, that I have to
13:42
have everything put together right, and I
13:45
have to have the answers, and I have to be okay. And
13:48
so when people say, kyle, how are you doing? I
13:51
just say, fine. Right.
13:53
And, um. And I think, you know, I brought that in as
13:56
the priest, but I think so
13:59
often we. We
14:02
cultivate that in the community as well. That the
14:05
community is the place that the church, you know,
14:07
even though we disagree with it and we know theologically
14:10
it's not the case, but we, like, in
14:13
practical terms, I think sometimes the
14:16
community develops this attitude that this is the place to
14:19
go when you have all the answers figured out
14:22
and everything's okay. Um, and
14:25
you can sit in the pew with the people that are like you.
14:28
And when people ask you, how are you doing? All they
14:30
want is, I'm fine. And so when
14:33
people come up against something, and
14:36
I'm sure, you know, as a pastor, I'm sure that you have found this
14:39
as well. People enter into a time
14:42
of discouragement or struggle, and they
14:45
say, I have to leave the
14:47
church. And once I figure it all out,
14:50
well, then I'll come back. Well, nine times out
14:53
of ten, they don't. Right. And so,
14:56
um, rather than the church being this
14:59
place, this gathering place,
15:02
where it's okay not to be okay and
15:05
it's okay to articulate that
15:07
and why we've developed that
15:10
attitude, I'm not exactly sure, you know,
15:13
but I do know that there needs to be a willingness
15:16
to. To articulate
15:19
those deep hurts of the soul and
15:22
those deep discouragements,
15:24
um, And.
15:27
And build a culture that says
15:30
that these are the places in which we might
15:33
actually find community more,
15:36
but also find God in the midst of
15:39
it.
15:41
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there definitely is
15:44
a real strain of Christian thought
15:47
and culture around,
15:50
um, you know, the strength of
15:52
your faith, uh, being
15:55
measured kind of by an absence of doubt.
16:00
Your faith is strong enough to move mountains. You're
16:03
not gonna acknowledge the possibility that
16:06
it's not gonna work out or that you don't
16:09
have everything figured out. I mean, I think that
16:12
can be a part of Christian culture. I
16:15
think maybe also what you're
16:18
naming is, in our
16:20
Anglican tradition, there can be,
16:23
ah, a politeness to
16:26
our church culture, ah,
16:28
like a reserved, um,
16:31
kind of nature to our church culture that
16:34
people do want to present
16:37
as having things
16:39
together.
16:41
>> Kyle Norman: Um, I think so. And that's part of why I
16:43
wanted to write the book.
16:45
Right. Is, um, in every church that
16:47
I've been a part of, and
16:50
I'm 22 years into ministry, and I've been in
16:53
various different churches, from rural churches to an urban church and
16:56
now to a cathedral, um, and I have met
16:59
faithful Christian men and women, um,
17:02
who deep within, carry a certain
17:05
amount of shame or
17:07
guilt because they feel they're doing it
17:10
wrong. Right. Because they hear.
17:13
They read in books or they hear in a sermon
17:16
that God answers prayer, and
17:19
they think, well, I've never had God answer
17:22
one of my prayers. Or, you know, this person
17:25
talks so passionately about feeling the love of
17:27
Jesus, and. But I don't know if I've ever felt the love of
17:30
Jesus. And so there must be some. And these are people who have
17:33
sat in the same Pew for 30 years.
17:37
Right. And so what I wanted to do was
17:39
articulate that this kind of sense of
17:42
Pollyanna, uh, everything is okay,
17:45
um, is not actually the biblical understanding of faith at
17:48
all. Um, and we need to be
17:51
honest about that.
17:53
>> Martha Tatarnic: And you figured that out in a very
17:56
personal way. Yeah. Um,
17:59
Yeah, I think that sense of inadequacy can be
18:02
really rife. And I hear it a lot
18:05
around prayer, especially that people kind of feel
18:08
like everybody else understands how to pray. But,
18:11
like, it feels
18:14
not straightforward for me. Right.
18:17
>> Kyle Norman: Like, yeah, absolutely. I remember,
18:20
um, and this was probably just maybe
18:24
two years or so before, um,
18:27
Alicia's diagnosis, um,
18:30
and just kind of recognizing
18:33
nobody had ever actually taught me to pray.
18:36
Like, Right. In terms of, like, I could say
18:39
the words and. But it was kind of assumed,
18:42
you know, you'll figure it out. All through university,
18:45
all through Sunday school, all through
18:47
seminary, nobody had kind of said, let's
18:50
really talk about what
18:53
prayer is in this kind of internal way.
18:56
And let's talk about what it means to, you know, to
18:59
pray our supplications. But let's also talk
19:02
about lamentations and how that is a
19:04
really Authentic way, like, you can
19:07
scream and you can yell and you can do all of that.
19:10
Um, and so I had done a lot of
19:13
reading, which I think was very
19:15
preparatory and, you know, and very kind of
19:18
well timed divinely
19:22
for what I was going to be heading into.
19:24
Um, but that didn't take away the visceralness
19:27
of being in those places at that time.
19:31
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, Yeah, I can appreciate that.
19:34
So, um, connected to,
19:37
like, that sense of inadequacy.
19:40
And
19:43
I think that feeling, that
19:46
kind of scared feeling a lot of people can have about,
19:49
like, yeah, maybe their faith
19:52
doesn't measure up to
19:54
what is expected or what others,
19:58
um, have experienced. You
20:01
share a lot of other stories
20:04
that I think are very much related to this, of
20:07
people who have come to believe that
20:10
they're, like, just not worthy of God's
20:12
love. Um, that they're not good enough,
20:15
that their faith isn't good enough. That can also be
20:18
connected to forgiveness. And, like, maybe
20:21
other people can be forgiven, but if they knew
20:24
what I had done or who I am
20:27
inside, like, they would know that I can't be
20:29
forgiven. That there's, like, kind of this
20:32
haunting sense of inadequacy that can,
20:35
like, play out in a lot of different ways
20:38
in the minds and
20:40
experiences of. Of us and of
20:43
our people. Like, do you have kind
20:46
of a sense of where these messages come from, how
20:49
people end up feeling this way?
20:52
>> Kyle Norman: Um, I think some. Some of it. And some of the
20:55
people that I remember talking to, some of it is what
20:57
they've been taught. And they've been taught it
21:00
from, well, frankly, churches,
21:03
um, or they've been taught it from
21:06
religious family, um, members that
21:09
they grew up with. Um, there's this one person
21:12
who, for every infraction,
21:14
every mistake, um,
21:17
would wave their finger and say, God
21:20
will get you for that. Right. And so
21:23
they. And so they grew up
21:26
feeling that God is just this angry judge in the
21:29
sky with, you know, just
21:31
waiting just to write this divine ticket for every
21:34
little thing. And they. And they took that upon
21:37
themselves. I think another
21:39
area is, you know, we live
21:42
in a soundbite kind of world.
21:45
And the sound bite
21:48
culture of, um. An easy answer to
21:51
something is, I think, um, one of
21:53
the places where these things come out, right?
21:57
God is not picking on you. God is handpicking you
22:00
to bestow his glory. Well, wait, what does that
22:03
mean? Like, and all of these are just
22:05
band aids that we put onto the suffering of
22:08
others so that we don't have to deal with
22:11
it, Right?
22:13
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I
22:16
think that's very True. I think
22:19
that the vulnerability,
22:22
um, of other people, if it's just a little too
22:25
front and center, can be way too
22:28
much of a reminder of our own
22:30
vulnerability. Um,
22:33
so I think that that's very cherry turned.
22:38
>> Kyle Norman: Yeah, I think so. Right. I think that there is
22:41
that kind of understanding of,
22:44
um, we don't want to deal with the
22:47
stuff that is,
22:49
um, vulnerable, the
22:52
stuff that makes, um, us
22:55
feel uncomfortable. And so we kind of,
22:58
you know, placate everything under this
23:01
thin veneer of spirituality,
23:04
which doesn't actually
23:07
help in, you know, in any sort of way.
23:12
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I agree. Um, and, you
23:14
know, the other thing that I think about a lot is
23:17
that, like, churches by no means
23:20
have a monopoly on
23:24
making people feel inadequate and not good
23:26
enough. Like, that is,
23:29
you know, you talk about the sound bite culture, but,
23:32
like, just spend some time on social
23:35
media or ask, like, some of our kids who are
23:37
growing up in a social media age how
23:40
inadequate they feel on a regular basis, how much,
23:43
like, we are bombarded with
23:46
messages about all of the ways in
23:49
which we really could and should be
23:51
better.
23:52
>> Kyle Norman: Oh, absolutely. Like, and it's a huge thing. I have
23:55
this little reflection, um, and it was a very
23:58
real, real thing, you know, as somebody who's on Facebook,
24:01
on somebody, you know, on Instagram,
24:03
realizing that Bobby Flay's cat has
24:06
more Instagram followers than me, like, this
24:09
celebrity chef's cat is killing it. And
24:12
I'm like, what? Like, and it's just so easy
24:15
because we live in a culture that
24:17
says, this is who you should be,
24:20
you know, and this is what you should be doing.
24:23
Um, that that kind of
24:26
message is ultimately
24:28
condemning. And because we
24:31
have built this world around
24:34
us that says this, how can we
24:37
not sometimes take those condemnations upon
24:39
ourselves? Um, and it's just.
24:42
And it's rife. It's everywhere.
24:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: I think it really is. And I think that to some
24:48
degree, and, you know, I could be wrong about this because I
24:51
didn't grow up in that version of the church at all.
24:54
Like, the angry judg in the sky version of the church I
24:57
didn't grow up in. So I don't know, like, how that
25:00
feels, uh, like, to grow up with that
25:03
message. But I wonder sometimes whether it is the more
25:06
insidious messages that, like,
25:09
just get baked into your
25:11
subconscious that are harder to talk
25:14
back to because you almost don't even realize
25:17
that they're there.
25:18
>> Kyle Norman: Absolutely. And you don't realize they're there until
25:21
something comes and shakes you
25:24
up.
25:25
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yes.
25:25
>> Kyle Norman: Right. And I didn't, like,
25:29
I Didn't know that,
25:32
you know, like, imposter syndrome is a thing for me. I'm a middle
25:35
child. I'm always comparing myself. Um,
25:37
and so, and that is something that I've kind of struggled
25:40
with. But I didn't know how deeply
25:43
there was this little voice that
25:46
connected God's judgment to those things
25:49
until all of a sudden I'm asking
25:52
like, if I was a better priest, would this not have happened
25:55
if I was a better husband? And, uh, I
25:58
didn't think I would ever ask those questions. But
26:01
all of a sudden those come rising up within me.
26:05
And again, that was part of the upheaval. And
26:08
it was just like, what is, what is going on
26:11
here?
26:12
Um, and then that really just kind of created,
26:16
um, like that was in 2015, we're now in
26:18
2025. That created a 10 year
26:21
journey of me wanting to explore and
26:24
write about this sense of
26:27
discouragement in faith
26:30
and wrestling in faith. And
26:33
what if actually the position of faith is
26:36
wrestling and it's in the wrestling that
26:39
we find that we actually are wrestling with a God who comes to
26:42
us. Right. Uh, and
26:45
doesn't just leave us, doesn't just push us to the side,
26:48
doesn't just wait till we have it all figured out, but, uh,
26:51
is actually the one who comes and dwells with us in that
26:53
moment.
26:55
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. That's so
26:57
beautiful.
26:58
So, like, do you feel, are there a
27:01
couple of key things that you think the church could
27:04
be doing that could
27:06
help toward this healthier faith that
27:09
could, you know, help people in their
27:11
discouragement and doubts and
27:14
inadequacy?
27:16
>> Kyle Norman: Yeah, like, I think that,
27:19
you know, depending on how
27:22
you, um, where
27:24
you're asking that question from in terms of the church.
27:27
Right. So if you're asking from the position
27:30
of church leadership, one of the things that I think that
27:33
priests and pastors need to do is
27:36
we need to be vulnerable and we need to be honest.
27:39
We need to be able and not
27:42
this fake vulnerability,
27:45
this fake honesty that says, oh, back in the day,
27:48
well, that's when I was struggling, but now I have all the
27:50
answers. We need to be
27:53
willing to articulate.
27:56
I don't know what to do and I don't have the
27:59
answers. Um, and I need some help
28:01
for whatever is going on.
28:04
We need to be able to do that in order to
28:07
create that culture that allows
28:10
somebody to say, I hear
28:12
myself in that. And then therefore, then community
28:15
is built. Um, and then I think for the church,
28:19
you know, I don't want to talk about programs or anything like that,
28:22
but I do Think we need to develop the
28:25
capacity
28:27
to
28:30
sit with each other in
28:33
our struggles and
28:36
not, uh, and not rush
28:39
to the solutions. Uh, and not
28:42
always be quick
28:45
to
28:48
kind of lay out the pathway. Right.
28:51
To say, oh, well, I've had that too. And this is
28:54
how I went through it. And that might be true.
28:56
Fabulous.
28:58
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
28:58
>> Kyle Norman: But.
28:58
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
28:59
>> Kyle Norman: That can feel condemning. As
29:02
if, well, I've progressed. Um,
29:05
and when you progress too, then we will be able to chat
29:08
about that. Well, what does it look like for you
29:10
to sit in the ashes with that person?
29:13
Ah. And like Job's friends
29:16
before they started talking, just sit
29:19
there, not actually pose any
29:22
answers and just be there in care
29:25
and support. Because that's what people are wanting for. They
29:28
want to know they're not alone in whatever they're struggling
29:31
with. Uh, and then in the
29:34
midst of that,
29:35
uh, we grow in our
29:38
capacity to find God in the midst of that. So.
29:41
Yeah, so I think probably
29:44
vulnerability and honesty
29:47
in the midst of the church culture I think is a big
29:50
thing.
29:52
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think it's a big thing too. And I think that you're right.
29:55
It can be, um, it can be
29:57
modeled from the pulpit.
30:00
I would add a little footnote though. I would just
30:03
say, like, as you know, I'm a writer
30:06
and um, there's
30:09
hardly a vulnerability that I haven't
30:11
articulated loud either,
30:14
like in sermons or in
30:17
writing or what have you. And you know, some of it's
30:20
like, not that pretty.
30:22
Um, like
30:24
there is an appetite for,
30:27
uh, pastors that
30:30
present as having it all figured out. Like
30:34
it can make people a little,
30:36
um, A little
30:39
squeamish. I think sometimes when,
30:42
um, that is named so
30:45
front and center. That's not to say I
30:48
don't fully agree with you, because I do. I
30:51
just think like, leaders
30:54
should be aware that it does
30:57
come with some risks.
30:58
>> Kyle Norman: Well. And it comes from some risk. And what we should say is that we're
31:01
not talking about sensationalism. M. Either. Right. Like
31:04
there is. And we're not talking about
31:08
working out your own stuff in the midst of people.
31:11
Right. Like there is a way in which you
31:14
share your vulnerability in a
31:17
way which puts its eyes on you,
31:21
which is sensationalist or
31:24
in which you are using your
31:27
congregation as your therapist.
31:30
Right. And that. And that's unhealthy whatsoever.
31:33
Right. And so I think what we need to
31:35
do is it is a fine line
31:39
of saying we need to be honest and real about
31:41
struggles about, um,
31:44
hurts about our
31:46
insufficiencies about and
31:48
be. And struggles and be honest about that
31:54
also recognizing that in the
31:56
pastoral relationship, that naturally creates a certain
31:59
amount of boundaries, and we need to recognize what
32:02
those boundaries are and work within those boundaries for our
32:05
health, but also for their health, too. Like,
32:08
that's just a loving thing to do. Uh,
32:11
so there is a nuance there that
32:14
we need to recognize. You're right.
32:16
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. I think that those are some excellent guidelines.
32:19
And you're right. Like,
32:22
it's sort of, uh, a combination, I
32:25
think, of good boundaries and
32:27
common sense and a bit of
32:30
gut instinct.
32:31
>> Kyle Norman: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Absolutely.
32:33
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
32:35
So, um, I mean, the book
32:38
is so personal, but you talk about, like,
32:41
just some very universal,
32:44
uh, experiences as well. And I would say,
32:47
particularly, like, some universal
32:49
questions that I certainly
32:52
hear, like, time and time again
32:55
as a pastor, as a leader in the church,
32:58
that, you know, there's, like, very common
33:01
pitfalls for people spiritually.
33:04
And I like
33:07
how you get into these
33:09
pitfalls, um, drawing on
33:12
a bunch of different resources, like your own walk of
33:15
faith, the things that you learned through your wife's
33:17
illness, um, uh, the
33:20
resources of the Bible and of our
33:22
prayer life and of our worship life. Like, it
33:25
all. You kind of draw on all of it.
33:28
But I wonder whether we can just
33:30
talk about a few of these
33:33
questions and
33:35
maybe you can just share what you have learned
33:38
about what is helpful
33:41
in how we respond to these questions when they
33:44
come up, and maybe what's not
33:46
helpful. So,
33:49
um, you know, I think
33:51
the first one and the biggest one and the
33:54
most common one is like,
33:57
why is this happening to me? Like,
34:00
if God loves me, why would God do this to me?
34:03
Or, like, you know, I try to be a good person.
34:06
Like, how can this. Like,
34:09
uh, basically is like, they're no judge.
34:12
Justice.
34:13
>> Kyle Norman: Uh, absolutely. You know,
34:16
I remember wrestling with those
34:19
questions in the midst of, you know, because
34:22
you ask those questions in the midst of sickness and death and all
34:25
that stuff. And so when my wife was going through cancer, I asked, why is
34:27
this happening? And it dawned on me, wait
34:30
a minute. If somebody were actually
34:33
say. To be able to say to me,
34:36
okay, Kyle, um, Alicia
34:39
got cancer because of this reason. This is
34:42
the reason, and this is how it's going to work out and all that
34:45
kind of stuff, would that actually make
34:48
it less painful?
34:51
No, like, that actually
34:53
wouldn't help me at all.
34:56
Um, I actually think it would make actually things worse. And
34:59
so I actually think that there is.
35:03
And hopefully people understand what I'm saying. Almost this beauty in
35:06
the fact that we don't get an answer.
35:09
Right. Because when we try to put an answer like
35:12
Job's friends, we're almost probably 100%
35:15
wrong. And so there's
35:18
this, you know, so it's wonderful that God doesn't give
35:21
us an answer. God's response is to
35:23
come to us. God gives us a presence.
35:27
Right. And so, you know,
35:31
nobody can, unfortunately. Why is this happening?
35:34
I can't say why this is happening. Um, but
35:37
what I can say, what I think the Bible says,
35:40
what I think that I've experienced is that in
35:42
the midst of that question and asking that
35:45
question, and as gut wrenching and visceral as
35:48
it is, uh, God meets us in
35:51
that, um, God meets that
35:54
question not with a rationale,
35:56
but with God's loving and
35:59
grace filled presence.
36:02
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. So that move away from
36:04
like trying to litigate it
36:07
to like helping people be attentive to
36:10
God's presence.
36:11
>> Kyle Norman: Yeah. And we can ask those questions. Job
36:14
asked those questions. The psalmists totally ask those
36:17
questions. So like, rip away Jesus
36:20
did.
36:20
>> Martha Tatarnic: Like, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
36:23
>> Kyle Norman: Um, so ask away. Yell, scream, stomp
36:26
your feet, do all of that. That is a faithful
36:28
response. But we don't always
36:31
get the answers. And it's actually okay not to have the
36:34
answers because God gives us
36:38
God's, uh, presence.
36:40
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I like that. I like um,
36:43
giving tons of permission for those questions
36:46
to be part of faithful living,
36:50
um, but also the lack of answers to be part
36:53
of it too.
36:55
So I think the next refrain, uh, that
36:58
I hear a lot is pretty connected
37:01
to um, that piece around
37:04
being more attentive to the presence of God.
37:08
What if I can't feel God's love? What
37:11
if, like I hear other
37:13
people's spiritual experiences and they don't match up with
37:16
my own?
37:17
>> Kyle Norman: Absolutely. And I actually had
37:20
someone. So the title of the
37:22
uh, of a chapter is what if I don't feel God's Love? And
37:25
somebody actually asked me that after a service.
37:28
Um, I, the service was done, I
37:31
preached, did the communion. The person came up to me
37:34
afterwards and said, kyle, do you always
37:37
experience God's love? Because I
37:40
don't. And
37:42
so what I articulated her in that
37:45
brief moment and what I tried to articulate in the chapter,
37:48
I have this phrase, God's love is a fact, not a
37:51
feeling. Like God's love is not the
37:54
equivalent of a schoolyard crush that
37:56
just makes us feel positive
37:59
and butterfly and Twitter painted all
38:02
the time. That's not what God's love is. God's, uh,
38:05
love is a fact of God's existence to
38:08
which we claim in boldness
38:12
that we are surrounded by God's love,
38:14
because that is what Jesus shows us now. I
38:17
think we can feel God's love. And the
38:20
closer we get to Jesus, the closer we get
38:23
to those times of feeling God's love. But
38:26
if we are in a season where it's
38:29
like, I'm just, I don't feel God's love in this moment
38:32
or whatever, then that
38:34
doesn't mean God's love is absent. The
38:37
lack of feeling doesn't denote the lack
38:40
of existence, because God's love is a fact of who
38:43
God is.
38:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I like that. And,
38:48
you know, I think it's probably also related
38:52
to that culture change that
38:54
you name. Like, I think,
38:57
um, the more that people can share the
39:00
variety of ways in which they
39:02
experience God at work in their lives, experience
39:05
God's presence and love, I think the more that
39:08
that helps other people to find the
39:11
language that works for their experiences as well.
39:14
Like to say, it's not a cookie cutter
39:17
kind of thing. Right? Like, we don't all
39:20
experience God showing up in the same way.
39:23
>> Kyle Norman: Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, definitely.
39:27
>> Martha Tatarnic: What about forgiveness? Uh, like,
39:30
what about people who think that they can't be
39:32
forgiven? How do you respond to that?
39:38
>> Kyle Norman: When I've recently had that question, and
39:41
one of the things that I found myself reflecting on and
39:44
doing is
39:47
walking through them, the parable of the
39:50
unmerciful servant. And at least that
39:53
first part, and just the
39:55
dramaticness of
39:57
Jesus tells a story of the servant who owes
40:00
10,000 talents. Who. And I say,
40:03
just let's stop there.
40:06
Um, that the whole,
40:08
um, understanding of 10,000
40:11
talents in those days was 10,000 was the
40:14
biggest number. A talent was worth 20
40:17
years of wage. And so this servant
40:20
owed the master like an equivalent
40:23
of a gazillion dollars. Right.
40:25
And the whole point being, and what
40:28
Jesus is trying to say is that
40:31
forgiveness is uncalculable.
40:34
Right? And so there is nothing that we can
40:37
do to work ourselves
40:40
out of that forgiveness.
40:43
And, uh, it's just not a thing.
40:45
And, you know, theologians, sometimes we can
40:48
parse around what is the unforgivable sin, the blasphemy of
40:51
the Spirit, and what does that mean? And blah, blah,
40:54
blah. But if you're asking that question
40:57
out of a desire to really, you know, enter into
41:00
the forgiveness of God,
41:02
um, you're not
41:05
committing, you're not blaspheming the Spirit. So, like, let's
41:08
not even worry about that sometimes. Um,
41:11
I think what is
41:13
hardest in forgiveness is not being
41:16
forgiveness. Being forgiven
41:19
is accepting forgiveness is daring
41:22
to believe that that it's true. And
41:25
so I try to reframe it. I try to walk through that parable
41:28
and say, there is no, you know, forgiveness is
41:30
unlimited. It is always held out for us.
41:34
There is no sense in which that
41:36
forgiveness will be withheld. And so the question
41:39
isn't, you are unforgivable. The question
41:42
that we can talk about is, what does it mean for you to accept
41:45
it? And what does it mean for you to dare to
41:48
live in the midst of that? Um, and
41:51
then that just moves the conversation in a different
41:54
direction. Um, which,
41:57
which deals with struggles and
42:00
whatever was going on in their lives.
42:04
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Okay, let's do one
42:07
more. So I think this is also
42:10
a big one. Um, doubt. You
42:13
know, people. People will tell
42:16
me all the time that, uh,
42:18
that they're not very good Christians because they have lots of
42:21
doubts because, like, there are things that they don't understand
42:24
or things that they can't accept. Um, there are lots
42:27
of people who tell me that they're, you know, not
42:30
a, uh, believer at all because they,
42:33
you know, wrestle with certain
42:36
doctrines or proclamations.
42:39
So what's a helpful response to
42:41
people's doubt?
42:43
>> Kyle Norman: Well, the helpful response is,
42:46
uh, is twofold. One
42:49
is we need to remember that
42:53
Israel is wrestling,
42:56
right? And so Israel is named Israel
42:59
because he wrestled with God. Right.
43:01
And so that sense of
43:04
wrestling with something we don't understand, wrestling with. Where
43:07
is God wrestling with? I don't get
43:09
this doctrine. That's actually a faithful
43:12
response. And so you
43:15
can lean into that. You can recognize
43:18
that you are faithful and still have some doubts.
43:21
And that's okay.
43:23
But then I also like to,
43:26
um, talk a little bit about
43:29
doubting Thomas. And,
43:31
you know, it's just one. I love doubting Thomas. We
43:34
give him a bad rap. Uh, but
43:37
it's unfairly. Unfairly, but it's an
43:40
amazing thing. So if you. And we're going to read the story just
43:43
after Easter, but, you
43:46
know, we all know the story. Thomas says, oh,
43:49
if I, you know, if. Unless I put the nails in my hands and blah, blah,
43:52
blah, and all this, I will not going to believe. And so we kind of lean
43:55
into that. But there's this little phrase in the text that
43:57
says, you know, after eight days, Jesus returns
44:00
and Thomas is amongst them.
44:03
Okay, wait, wait. So for eight days, for a whole
44:06
week, Thomas is in a place where he
44:09
doesn't know what to believe. And he doesn't believe in the
44:12
resurrection and he doesn't get it, and he doesn't understand how all
44:15
this works out, but he
44:18
is willing to journey with a community.
44:21
As they talk about the story, as
44:24
they sing the hymns, as they pray for
44:27
each other, and Thomas is there saying, I don't get
44:30
it, but he's willing to journey
44:33
with them. And then at some point in the
44:35
journey, he meets the risen Lord.
44:39
And um, so just because you have a
44:41
doubt, and it might even be a big
44:44
doubt again, that doesn't mean you have to
44:46
separate yourself from the community, keep
44:50
a part of the community. And it might actually be in the midst
44:52
of the. Might not take eight days, it might take a
44:55
little bit longer. Right. But in the midst of that
44:58
community, as you, as you sing the community
45:01
songs, as you join with the people and as you listen to the
45:04
stories, it might be in that
45:07
context that you meet the risen Lord
45:10
as opposed to, I'm going to
45:12
leave and be by myself.
45:15
And then once again, and once I figure it out,
45:18
then I'll come back. Uh, it might actually
45:21
be in that place that you meet the risen Lord and you
45:24
find the answer that you're looking for.
45:27
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And you know, I think further to that,
45:30
like, I think we really need to frame in the
45:33
context of community the gift of doubt.
45:35
Because like, if it, like when
45:38
communities get like way too hyped
45:41
up on certainty, like
45:44
that can result in a
45:47
lot of hysteria and
45:50
um, like bad behavior
45:53
and so on. Like that gift of belief
45:56
and doubt all sort of working
45:58
itself out in discernment in a community like
46:01
Thomas plays, ah, an important
46:04
role in the
46:07
post resurrection days of
46:10
like, okay, what is this? Like, what
46:13
is going on here? Like, that's a really important question.
46:16
Did everybody just have a collective
46:18
delusion or like, is there something real
46:21
here? So,
46:24
yeah, um, I think
46:26
framing that communally and framing that
46:30
scripturally is so important.
46:32
>> Kyle Norman: Well, and for the church community as well, church going like,
46:35
so Thomas does believe my Lord and my God,
46:39
but then it's not all roses. After that, the community still
46:42
struggled. They still had to
46:44
work really hard against all sorts of things
46:47
that they never thought they'd have to deal with and try to figure
46:50
it out. Circumcision versus
46:52
uncircumcision, barbarians at the end, like
46:55
all of this kind of stuff. And some
46:58
places they did very, very well. And some
47:01
places they had to work really hard to maintain
47:04
the community. And so articulating the
47:07
gamut of doubt and struggle within the
47:10
Christian experience as a whole, I
47:12
think is important.
47:16
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think that is
47:19
absolutely true. And you know, I think that
47:22
can be very much in the
47:24
category of discouragement, spiritual
47:27
discouragement, if people Think that
47:30
they're gonna have this moment
47:32
of clarity, this moment of revelation,
47:36
um, that is just gonna settle
47:39
everything. And like then you've arrived,
47:41
like then everything is figured out. Uh, like we never
47:44
get to just arrive. We always are, uh, a work
47:47
in progress.
47:48
>> Kyle Norman: Absolutely. And that's a, and that's a
47:50
beautiful thing. But also we need to
47:53
articulate that that means that we're always
47:56
moving into, in some sense another place of
47:59
uncertainty. Right. And as we
48:02
need to figure out. Okay, so where does my life with
48:04
God? What does that mean in this new
48:07
place?
48:09
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, you know,
48:12
being clear about expectations is,
48:15
is really important.
48:17
So what has changed for you most as a
48:20
church leader through this 10 year
48:22
journey through writing this book? What's
48:25
the biggest takeaway for you?
48:29
>> Kyle Norman: I think for me, the biggest
48:31
takeaway for me is
48:37
I feel like I lead more from the heart than the
48:40
head now. Um,
48:43
and yeah, you know,
48:46
I like that at the beginning I really appreciated that
48:48
you said that the book is a pastoral book and you said
48:51
that there's a lot of heart in it. And that makes me
48:54
feel good because I think, not that I was this
48:57
overly heady person, however, but I can find
49:00
it easy just to live in my head.
49:02
And so I
49:05
think I have grown in my
49:07
capacity to
49:11
be that heart
49:14
filled presence for a
49:16
person rather
49:19
than the learned
49:22
theologian, if that makes
49:25
sense. And so I think I've grown in that capacity and
49:28
I think that's only made me a better
49:31
preacher. I think it's made me a better pastor
49:34
and I think it makes. It makes me a better priest.
49:38
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Like the word that's coming to mind for me,
49:41
and I may or may not be using it correctly, is just
49:44
empathy. Like that.
49:48
It seems to me that there's a big part of this journey
49:50
that, um, just
49:53
found you walking a lot more closely
49:56
with people's lived experiences.
49:59
>> Kyle Norman: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And engaging.
50:02
And engaging my faith, like there was an inner
50:05
transformation that happened within me as well. So
50:08
engaging my faith in a whole
50:10
different way. And
50:13
not that I didn't have my personal relationship with Jesus
50:16
before, but it's, I would say
50:19
it's, it's stronger, it's maybe more else
50:22
I would maybe say it's more intense, but it's also
50:24
more personal,
50:26
uh, more
50:28
emotive now than
50:31
um, before.
50:35
>> Martha Tatarnic: So the corollary to that
50:37
question is what would you want the
50:40
biggest takeaway to be for the church? What
50:43
would you most like the
50:46
church to be communicating?
50:49
>> Kyle Norman: That's a good question.
50:58
You know, I
51:01
recognize so in this moment.
51:05
I recognize that
51:08
there's a lot of anxiety in
51:10
the. In the Western world. You know,
51:13
I. We're in Canada. Um, your listeners are probably
51:16
some in the States as well, and I have friends in the
51:19
States, and, like, tensions are
51:22
ramped up. And I
51:24
think it's tempting
51:28
on each side for the
51:30
churches
51:33
to articulate a
51:35
position. Right. To articulate something
51:38
that we can say that will make it make
51:41
sense and help us navigate this.
51:44
And what I just. What I'm feeling in this
51:47
moment is
51:50
perhaps the place
51:52
is to be is not
51:55
articulating, again, the
51:58
right answer, the right position,
52:01
but
52:04
just articulating that
52:06
anxiety and what people are
52:09
feeling and saying
52:12
it's okay to feel that way, and God meets us
52:15
in this place, and
52:18
let's pray from that place.
52:21
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think that's really good. And I think,
52:24
um, just being attentive
52:27
to that desire in
52:30
times of anxiety and uncertainty to be
52:32
the strong leader, to be the one with the
52:35
answers to, you know, have
52:38
some magic bullets for people.
52:41
Um, I think just articulating
52:44
that particular pitfall does make it
52:46
easier to live in the tension,
52:50
to pray from the tension, to look for the
52:53
presence of God. I think that's super
52:55
important.
52:58
Okay, so the book is
53:00
alive, loved, and free. I highly
53:03
recommend it. How can people get their
53:06
hands on this book?
53:07
>> Kyle Norman: Book? Uh, you can get it
53:09
by, um, going on to Amazon ca.
53:12
So it's published through KDP and Amazon,
53:15
and so that is really the only place that you can
53:18
get it. It's available in paperback, uh, but also
53:21
in Kindle.
53:23
>> Martha Tatarnic: Awesome. Uh, okay, well, we're going to take a quick break. We're
53:26
going to come back for some closing question.
53:33
Welcome back to the Future Christian Podcast.
53:36
I am with the very Reverend Kyle
53:38
Norman, and we're going to wrap up with some
53:41
closing questions. Now, Kyle, these are questions that we
53:44
ask all of our guests, and we always
53:47
tell them that you are welcome to take
53:50
these questions as seriously as you want
53:52
or not.
53:53
>> Kyle Norman: Sure.
53:53
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay.
53:54
>> Kyle Norman: Yeah, absolutely.
53:56
>> Martha Tatarnic: So, Kyle, if you were pope for the
53:59
day, what would that 24 hours
54:02
entail?
54:04
>> Kyle Norman: Well, it would definitely be riding around in the popemobile.
54:07
Like, I would. I would hit a drive through. Honestly, I would
54:10
do that. Uh,
54:13
I think if I was pope for a day, I would
54:15
want to try to get
54:18
together some Christian
54:21
leaders and just say, brass
54:24
tacks. Our divisions
54:27
are not helpful. How can we work
54:30
together? And just, um, let's
54:33
have those conversations.
54:35
>> Martha Tatarnic: All right. In the Pope Mobile, maybe in the.
54:37
>> Kyle Norman: Popemobile as we go through McDonald's. I don't know.
54:42
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, that could be the hook. You know, the
54:44
invitation comes with
54:46
exactly the drive through in
54:49
the Popemobile. How could anybody resist?
54:52
>> Kyle Norman: Yeah, exactly.
54:55
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. Who is a, uh, theologian or
54:57
historical Christian figure that you would want to
55:00
meet, have a meal with, bring back to
55:03
life?
55:04
>> Kyle Norman: Well, what I would, uh, there's
55:07
so many, but Dietrich Bonhoeffer,
55:10
I would. Because
55:14
I think
55:18
what he articulated in his
55:20
life in terms of
55:25
state, um, state religion and how it
55:28
was responding to oppression and
55:31
violence and autocracy and all
55:34
that stuff is what we are seeing today. And so if
55:37
there's anybody who could help peel
55:39
back the onion layers a little bit,
55:43
I would say here's a beer, go
55:46
right. And just have a chat with him.
55:49
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. I would say that
55:52
answer has been coming up a little bit more
55:54
lately, and I do think that it is
55:57
a measure of the time and space that we're in right
56:00
now.
56:01
What are your hopes? Oh, sorry. What will history
56:04
remember from, uh, this current time and place?
56:10
>> Kyle Norman: Ooh, I think
56:15
history will.
56:20
I think history will remember the rise and fall of social
56:23
media. I
56:26
think. You know, um, what was it like?
56:28
TikTok was canceled for 24 hours and
56:31
people went nuts. And so
56:34
I think, I think from the standpoint of, um, a hundred
56:37
years from now, or 200 when they look back, I think it's
56:40
going to be social media is a thing, but I think it's
56:43
going to, it's going to rise and it's going to come crashing down
56:46
or replaced by something new. And I think
56:49
that's what people are going to remember.
56:52
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, interesting. Yeah.
56:56
Uh, what are your hopes for the future of
56:58
Christianity? For the future of the church?
57:03
>> Kyle Norman: My hopes for the future of the
57:06
church is
57:12
a, uh, growth in
57:17
vibrant but
57:20
smaller churches. Right.
57:23
So I think God's vision for the church is not
57:26
global denomination. Right. I think God's
57:29
vision is not where every church is a megachurch.
57:32
I think God's vision is small
57:35
pockets of Christians
57:37
gathering together in vibrancy and
57:40
passion. Uh, and that might be
57:43
100 people here and 50 here and
57:45
maybe 200 here and all that stuff. But
57:48
smaller yet more connected, authentic
57:51
and vibrant Christian communities.
57:54
>> Martha Tatarnic: Beautiful. Kyle, where can
57:57
people find more about you?
58:00
>> Kyle Norman: So I have a website which is
58:02
www.revkylenorman.ca.
58:06
so that's where you can find me. Um,
58:08
and then if you are in the Kamloops
58:11
area, then you can just show up at St. Paul's Cathedral
58:14
and I'm there every Sunday. So,
58:17
uh, those are kind of the places that you can find me. And you know, I'm on
58:20
TikTok and I'm on, uh, Facebook, so you
58:23
can Google Reverend Kyle Norman and you'll find
58:26
me.
58:27
>> Martha Tatarnic: And the Kamloops area is quite
58:30
scenic, right? Like, it's quite beautiful, isn't it?
58:32
>> Kyle Norman: Yeah, uh, it's great. We got, um, we have hills.
58:35
We're surrounded within about half an hour, about an
58:38
hour drive. I don't know, something like 300
58:41
lakes. Like it. It is a beautiful
58:43
environment. And so, yeah, if you're coming
58:46
up, um, Vancouver's great,
58:49
but Kamloops is where it's at. So
58:52
come to Kamloops.
58:53
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. So come for the scenery. Stay
58:56
for a conversation with me. Absolutely. Yeah.
58:57
>> Kyle Norman: Ah, exactly. Definitely. There you go.
59:00
>> Martha Tatarnic: Sounds good. Okay. Well, I so
59:03
appreciate your time today and this conversation
59:06
and this book. We always end with the word of
59:08
peace, so may the peace of the Lord be always
59:11
with you, Kyle.
59:12
>> Kyle Norman: And also with you.
59:20
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
59:23
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by by Resonate
59:26
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59:28
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59:31
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