Latest / Normally / Normally Podcast: Conservatism in Crisis: Charlie Kirk’s Murder, Faith, and the Future of the Movement

Transcript

Normally Podcast: Conservatism in Crisis: Charlie Kirk’s Murder, Faith, and the Future of the Movement · Normally

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Hey, guys, we are back on normally the show with
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: normalish takes, but when the news gets weird. I am
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Mary Catherine hamp.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: Ma'm Carol Marcus and Mary Catherine. How's it going.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's been a sad week.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: We were in Mexico City for the weekend, a trip
• 0:18
  Speaker 3: that we had planned for about a year. We got
• 0:20
  Speaker 3: tickets to see Oasis with the kids, and we almost canceled,
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: and we didn't just because we didn't want to disappoint
• 0:26
  Speaker 3: the kids. But I've just been I mean devastated, obviously.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Really really out of it.
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: And I have to say that my very normy, not
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: into politics, not super online husband has also been like that,
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: and we just have both been so sad and trying
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: to reflect and be optimistic for the kids.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Really, Yeah, it was. It's a very hard thing to see.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, even if you didn't see it, just for
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: it to have happened at all, For a friend and
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: colleague to be gunned down for doing the thing that
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: we love to do. Yeah that And I don't mean
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: to make it about me, but it's very hard to
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: watch this thing that I love that I think is
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: very healing talking to people who believe differently. For you,
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: I grew up with all people who disagree with me
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: same and I have always engaged with them in civil
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: and almost all the time kind ways. Like I'm sure
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: I've misstepped here and there, but like, I think that's
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: what matters. I think that's what changes minds. I think
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: that's what works to save entire civilizations. And to have
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: that be the thing that is attacked in addition to
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: a human that I knew, is yeah, devastating.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: It's hard to recover from.
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: We're gonna do a whole episode on the Charlie Kirk murder.
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: We're going to take it from three different perspectives. We're
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: going to do the future of the country, the future
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: of the conservative movement, and then had a parent in
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: the wake of this, we should do differently what we
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: do well now, that kind of thing. So let's get
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: into it.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: Future of the country.
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: I felt like we were in a very optimistic place
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: for the last almost year. I have to tell you
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: that it was from the Donald Trump reelection.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: I have felt like we.
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: Were recovering in so many ways that I really did
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: feel good about where we were going, and I understood
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: that not everybody agreed with everything he was doing, and
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: obviously I don't agree with every single thing.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Even though I hate to say stuff like that, in
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: this moment, I hate the I didn't agree with everything.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Blah blah blah.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: I don't have to, you don't have to.
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: It makes no sense to agree with everything. I don't
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: agree with everything you say. I feel like we largely agree,
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: but like you know, it just we're different people and
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: that's okay. But you know, I have felt very good
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: about a lot of things in the last year, and
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: this has it's shaken that a little bit. It's shaken
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: that where I am afraid of, not just where I
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: think the left is. I'm afraid of kind of normal people,
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: the doctors and the nurses and the teachers and the
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: accountants who have been fired in the wake of saying
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: truly despicable things online about Charlie Kirk's murder. I'm afraid
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: that these people live among us, and they hate us.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: And want us dead. And like you said, you.
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: Know, you and I grew up in places where people
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: largely disagreed with us, and I thought that we could
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: just do that in a kind, respectful fashion.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: And now I no longer know yeah.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: I think in my personal life I have been careful
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: for the past I would say ten years or so
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: about what organizations I associate my family with, keeping my
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: job sort of hush hush when I'm entering a new
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: space at schools, at kid activities, when I'm seeking medical care. Now,
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of my friends on the left
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: would tell me that's crazy, that's that's paranoid. Why would
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: you do that. I don't think it feels that paranoid.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: It doesn't, and it does worry me that someone would
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: take their feelings about my beliefs out on my family
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: and on services that we need. If you are in
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: a position of public trust and you are incapable of
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: regulating your emotions to the agree to the degree that
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: not only do you have the feeling that someone should
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: be killed for their political disagreements with you, but you
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: want to broadcast that I have some really serious questions.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: I as some one of those serious questions. And I
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: am a person who has written a book about cancel
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: culture being bad before it had a name.
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: I defended Trevor Noah, James Gunn, any number of liberals
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: for old bad tweets I think offensive jokes are largely
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: pretty good. Yeah, like all the things tweets old tweets
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: shouldn't be a problem. All that kinds of up. I
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: don't want to all dug up. I feel like a
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: lot of this stuff is something that would have been
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: firal before cancel culture existed.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: Right, that's sort of the difference here.
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: It's that this isn't an uncomfortable joke you made ten
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: years ago. It's not something that was ever okay to
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: dance on someone's grave. And also just you know, the
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: people who think that they're being mgnanimous or something by
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: saying like, well, I didn't agree with Charlie Kirk on
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: all of these things, and they list everything they think
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: is terrible that he's ever said. You know, but it's
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: still wrong to kill him, Like you could just go
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: jump right ahead to it was wrong to kill him,
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: Like you don't have to do that. Nobody when grandma dies,
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: nobody's like here are all the offensive things she's ever
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: said at parties.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: You know, they just warn grandma that's it.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with you. And also people are allowed
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: to be a jerk about someone who just died, right, like,
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: and I don't think that's a viraable offense. I do
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: think of all the things we could ask most people
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: to agree on, agreeing as a free society with free speech,
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: it is not good to murder someone for that speech
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: is a pretty good one that we could be almost
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: unanimous on. Yeah, and I have been disturbed by how
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: many people I do not agree and to the practitioners
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: of the left to tell all of us that, oh, yeah,
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: now you want to do cancel culture, and they'll tell you,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: they'll tell you you're doing cancel culture. And also this thing,
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: this problem we're seeing, doesn't exist. I'm like, no, it
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: does exist. It happened with Luigi Mangioni and the murder
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: of Brian Thompson. It's happening again. I'm less surprised because
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: of the sickness I saw after Brian Thompson was killed.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: And it is dark.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: It's dark, it really is.
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: And you know, so you're talking about where I feel
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: like you and I differ a little bit.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: I think you're far kinder than me on this kind
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: of thing.
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: I'm kind of in the place of you wanted this
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: cancel culture game here it is. It doesn't work if
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: we're the only ones getting canceled.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: Yet to play like only the.
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: Left gets to choose who loses their job over speech
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: Like no, I'm sorry that that's not the way it's
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: going to go. And I think that the only way
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: this ends is if they have to live under the
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: consequences of their own rules. And I don't you know,
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: I don't see another path. The other thing, I don't
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: think I've heard anybody say this, but I think another
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: huge problem that we're facing, and this is really sort
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: of on the periphery of all the things we're talking about.
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: Everybody thinks that they're on a TV show or something
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: like my Facebook speed, Like you're an accountant.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: Why are you issuing a statement on Charlie Kirk's death.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: I just don't get it. I don't understand why you.
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: Think that you need to say something and why like
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: I get the outpouring of grief. I even understand the
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: I didn't agree with him, but you know, we shouldn't
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: kill each other, sure, but like, why are you writing
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: five hundred words on Charlie Kirk when this is not
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: your job and it's not what you do and people
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: don't turn to you in moments of you know, national
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: strife to say what is Larry the account and think
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: about this. I feel like people have gotten where. They
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: all think that they have an online brand. And speaking
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: of someone who has an online brand.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: You don't want this. You don't want it. If it's
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: not your job, why do it well?
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: And even as people with an online brand, I didn't
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: make a statement, no, I'm in this, I'm in this milieu.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: I'm in this work, this line of work. It is
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: very applicable to what I do a little too directly
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: applicable to what I do in a scary way. And
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: like you can, just like my Instagram doesn't have anything,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: my Twitter has some stuff because this is what I
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: have capacity for, and I'm speaking about it publicly like
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: you just you don't have to, you don't. One thing
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: I hope for the future of the country is that
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: every I have noticed, invariably you click through or do
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: three seconds of research on whatever quote you come across
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: from Charlie Kirk. And there were plenty of things Charlie
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: said that I disagreed with, but invariably every quote I
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: come across and click through and watch it is a calm,
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: kind explication that treats people with like dignity, high emotional
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: IQ has a lot of facts at his disposal, and
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: in the end you go, well, this is like that's
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: what we're mad about. That's what we're mad.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: About, right, And I hope of context, I just want to.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: Say, well, that's what I'm saying. It's like you click
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: through on the Second Amendment quote and you get this
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: like incredibly smart, sensitive, nuanced with all these caveats, discussion
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: of what having a second Amendment is, for what it
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: looks like and what are the realistic dangers of that
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: in a free society, because he's a realistic thinker, and
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: I just I listen to that answer and I go,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: that is that's something I would go to a campus
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: and say, because I am a rational thinker who is
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: in favor of this fundament liberty, and to have it
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: distorted in that way is crazy. But I think a
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: lot of people are watching the videos and are probably
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: surprised at what they've been told about Charlie Kirk.
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: I hope, so I hope that they're not just relying
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: on social media posts by their most politically active friends
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: to tell them what he said and what he meant
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: and all of that. You know, Karen Attia, as we're recording.
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: This has just been fired by the Washington Post. She
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: completely misquoted Charlie Kirk, and this is why she was
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: fired over it. She quoted him as saying black women
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: do not have the brain pot processing power to be
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: taken seriously. You have to go steal a white person.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Slot.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: He didn't say anything like that.
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: He criticized Joy Reid, Michelle Obama, Sheila Jackson Lee, but
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: he absolutely did not.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: Say black women. And it is a lie to say that.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: And I'm sorry.
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: Pointing out individual people that he disagreed with, or even
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: if he said something offensive about it, does not mean
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: that he was blaming all black women. Are talking about
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: all black women, and it is a lie, and I'm
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: glad she was fired for that.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: I think that is a fireable offense.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: Oh, you've made up quotes about a public figure in
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: the wake of his death. That's not very journalistic. That's
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: another thing that bothers me about Being anti cancel culture
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: does not mean you paint yourself into a corner with
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: every legacy media a hole. Yeah, can never lose their
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: gajillion dollar a year cush contract, right. Matthew dowd Over
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: at MSNBC in our one of coverage blamed Charlie Kirk
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: for his own death. Okay, here, here's the thing. It's
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: breaking news. You have a responsibility to be responsible. Your
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: job is to control your emotions in public. Your job
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: is to give people real information and barring that, just
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: do no harm. To borrow a phrase from the medical community. Look,
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: he's not good. He's not good at that job. Yeah,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: I would argue he's not qualified for that job if
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: he can't do better than that. Last campaign he won
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: is two thousand and six. He does nothing but block
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: people who disagree with him because he cannot engage in
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: any disagreement, and he says really nasty things that he
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: later has to walk back, and even MSNBC is likely enough. Yeah,
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: at some point you're a Stephen Colbert and you're just
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: like you're dead weight. Man. He don't do this anymore.
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: We're going to take a sharp break and come right
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: back and talk about where the conservative movement goes after
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: Charlie Kirk. But first, it was nearly two years ago
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: the terrorists murdered more than twelve hundred innocent Israelis and
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: took two hundred and fifty people hostage. Today, it seems
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: as if the cries of the dead and dying have
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: been drowned out by shouts of anti Semitic hatred, and
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: the most brutal attack on Jewish people since the Holocaust
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: has been forgotten. Yet as the world looks away, a
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: light shines in the darkness. It's a movement of love
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: and support for the people of Israel called Flags of Fellowship,
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: and it's organized by the Internet National Fellowship of Christians
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: and Jews. And on October fifth, just a few weeks away,
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: millions across America will prayer fully plant an Israeli flag
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: and honor and solidarity with the victims of October seventh,
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: twenty twenty three and their grieving families. And now you
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: can be part of this movement too. To get more
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: information about how you can join the Flags of Fellowship movement,
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: visit Fellowship online at IFCJ dot org. That's IFCJ dot org.
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: More from the Charlie Kirk assassination fallout coming up.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: All right, we are back on normally, okay. Future of
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: the country now, future of the conservative movement. Charlie built
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: something really big. He was a leader in a way
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: that I am not capable of being. It was impressive
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: to watch. I have spoken at a turning point events
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: in the past, even when, by the way, Charlie and
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: I were in open disagreement about things, he would have
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: me come speak at his organization because he liked different
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: voices there. It's interesting the impact that he has had
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: on young people. What do you think happens from here
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: for the conservative movement, Well.
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: The toughest part is appealing to the young audience. Everybody
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: has a podcast, you know, when I've been asked in
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: the last few days, like you know some who's picking
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: up you know the microphone and what people mean obviously
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: is the exchange with students, but.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: The whole having a perspective. Everybody's got one.
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: It's the going into places where you might face opposition
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: and having tough conversations and doing it with a smile,
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: which I don't have any capacity.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: For it all. Either.
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: I can argue with my friends, I can argue on
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: the internet, going and specifically having arguments. I really respected
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: him for that and I don't have them just I don't.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Have the same will to go do that. But I
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: love that he was doing it. So it's the young people.
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: I think that the conservative movement should be most worried
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: about not continuing down the path that Charlie was taking us,
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: because for the first time young people were voting Republican,
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: young men more than women.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: But still both had shifted.
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: Right in the last you know, four or five years,
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: and Charlie played a huge role in that. And I
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: don't know exactly who comes next now. Names that I've
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: heard that I say a big buck no to is
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: Nick Fuentes. Absolutely not and and also not just absolutely not,
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: like stop elevating this clown. It's crazy to me that
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: this online degenerate who makes it.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: Even good charm? There's no if you took the belief
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: society exactly. He's not good to watch, right.
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: He's only good when he's like punching Candice Owens, Like
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: that's really where he shines.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: I ran a raq war situation is the only place
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: that I want to root for injuries.
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: But it's just he he has no skill or basis
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: in this. He is this weird, hateful dude who I
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: just find him totally uninteresting. He's never made a point
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: that I was like, you know, even though we disagree,
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: I find him like, no, not at all. And so
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: I don't know otherwise, I kind of think it's somebody
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: that we don't know yet.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: That there will be people that rise from this.
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: You know, people are forming Turning Point chapters all over
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: the country in high.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Schools and in colleges.
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: There's going to be people that rise up from the
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: movement and do what Charlie did in the same way,
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: that similar way that he did it, in a really smart.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: Fashion, and take the argument to the students. A lot
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: of people are good at this kind of thing. Ben
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: Shapiro springs to mind. Ben Shapiro is, you know, I
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: don't want to say older, but he's our age. He's like,
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: you know, we're not going to college campuses.
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: And while Ben does a great job of debating with people,
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: I think he's really stellar at that.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: I do think it needs to be.
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: College age, somebody in the same age brackets as these
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: young people in order to have that conversation. Charlie was
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: only thirty one, and he'd been doing this for a
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: long time. He was able to talk to these young
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: people because he was them five minutes ago. Yeah.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: Well, and it is tricky because it is a very
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: it's a it's a real skill, and I actually so
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: I don't have the skill of building the organization like
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: he did. I do have the skill of talking like
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: I do. Like going to college campuses. I do like
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: when they stand up in front of me and have
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: a question that they feel like I've never heard before,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: and they're like, I'm really gonna get her. I just
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: say kindly, like I've heard that before, and I am
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: happy to walk you through it. Like the idea that
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: a woman could be a conservative. That's what I'm here for.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: And it's it is so much fun, and you could
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: see it in Charlie's clips and edifying to have that
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: conversation and at the end of a thirty minute, hour
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: long session, and none of mine were nearly as high
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: profile as Charlie's, but to see a bunch of Harvard
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: students look at you and be like I thought I
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: was gonna hate her, and I'm right that I don't, right, Like,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: that's that's what you're looking for. So I think it's
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: important for people like Ben and I'm nobody, but I
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: would also be willing to take up the mic and
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: do these things. I would not be as good at it.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: It's very stressful, it's very hard work. Without the fear
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: that is now instilled. But it's really important for people
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: to get out there and say we are going to
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: continue to do this with whatever security needs being met.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: And by the way, colleges need to make sure that
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: they are proactively doing that. There are a lot of
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: them aren't interested in it because speech, but I think
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: that's really important. I think you're right that a young
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: person is better positioned for it. And also to be
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: that well read and to deploy that kind of emotional
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: IQ and to parry with anyone and everyone is a
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: very big ask. The thing that's cool about Charlie is
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: that he built this organization that is well funded, has
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: a bunch of people who believe in it, who has
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: many employees. Any number of those folks can take up
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: the mantle, right And then there's, like you said, many
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: people inspired who we don't even know about yet exactly.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: But I think the I think the murder of Charlie
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: Kirk is affecting young people in a way that most
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: media and liberal bubble people will missing not understand they're
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: missing it. Are people are taking a second look at
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: their faiths. People have never stepped into a church before
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: are doing it. I wrote about it in The Free
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: press today saying like, yeah, maybe take a chance on God,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: because dark times are both an invitation to faith and
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: a test of it. Yeah, and you may find that
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: this is exactly the thing that will help you through
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: these times, as I have in the past. By the way,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: I also want to say a person who could take
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: up his mantle and Erica Kirk So, Erica Kirk gave
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: a stunning, strong, forceful, beautiful tribute to her husband and
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: his work just days after he was killed. She's fantastic,
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: she really is. She is clearly, she clearly has a
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: fierce faith. It will serve her well as she moves forward.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: A lot of not low profile, not rando people on
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: the left were coming at her for supporting her husband's
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: vision and in the wake of his death and oh,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: looking a little mad about it. She should be mad
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: about it, guys. She should be mad about it. And
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: if she wants to channel that energy into supporting the
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: thing that her husband died doing, she should do that.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: Absolutely should do that.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: That's a perfect way to mourn.
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: Actually, yeah, I thought her speech was incredible. How strong
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: she is. And look, I'm full of anger. I could
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: just imagine where she is and the fact that she
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: was able to.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: Deliver those beautiful words.
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: So shortly after his murder, and you know, people are like, oh,
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: we need somebody to unite us. She has been a
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: uniting figure in this terrible, terrible time. I'm fully supportive
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: of her taking ho here.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be on his widow defense duty for
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: like the next two years for Erica Kirk, like as
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: she may never know who I am, but I'm going
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: to be out here, like y'all need to shut up.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: She's doing a great job. She's fantastic. She's getting it done. Yeah,
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: it's a hard job in front of her, and she's
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: approaching it with really impressive strength.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: Are you optimistic about the conservative movement going forward?
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: I tend to be an optimistic person, even in dark times.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: And I think seeing despite what the left would tell
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: you and much of the media attempts to tell you
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: that the real scary thing is the foreboding response of
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: the right to their their figure being murdered for speaking,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: how dare we it's not foreboding. Actually, Erica Kirk did
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: a beautiful thing. The candlelight vigils are not mostly peaceful,
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: but peaceful to the extent that they're not peaceful. It's
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: because lefties come and throw things and stomp on flowers
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: and yell ape okay, So that being the coming together
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: of our side does make me feel better because there
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: have been moments when our side has done bad things.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: And sure, but our response to this is not.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: Even in the same universe.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, our response to this is not twenty twenty. It's
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: actually beautiful and redemptive, and I hope it continues to
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: go down that road.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: I'm also optimistic.
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: I think that this will unite us in a way
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: that the left can't imagine. I think most people on
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: the right are realizing that we have to stop the infighting.
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: I think that a lot of the stupidity, you know,
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: a lot of it's personal. I think people don't realize
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: how much of political infighting is actually I just don't
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: like that person, and that's where it comes from.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: Which let me tell you.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: When I first went to DC in grad school, you know,
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: to work there, I was shocked by this. I was
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: shocked because I was such a movement conservative and I
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: was going to get along with everybody and it didn't matter.
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: And I was like, no, people sometimes just don't like
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: each other, and that's where political infighting comes from. And
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: it's wild and crazy, and I think we're going to
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: pause it. I don't look my naive. Do I think
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: it's gonna last forever? No, but I would bet we're
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: going to see some reconciliations that will even surprise us.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back with.
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: More on normally and how to parent in the wake
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: of the Charlie Kirk murder. Be right back, Welcome back
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: to normally, where we are talking about the murder of
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: Charlie Kirk, what it means for the country, what it
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: means for the conservative movement, how to not end up
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: with a child who was radicalized. All of this matters,
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: and I think that it's important to have these conversations.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: I'll tell you you know, as you know, Bethany Mandel
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: and I co authored a book two years ago.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: It was about how.
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: Children get radicalized and it was called Stolen Youth, and
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: it's about how all the different parts of society radicalized
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: children to the left.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: And as I was on book.
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: Tour for this, so many parents came up to me
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: and told me the stories. They all started the same way.
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: They were like I lost my child, and I was like, wow,
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: what happened, and it's always raised them thinking that they
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: were going to live our values, and we didn't talk
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: about politics in the home, and then they went to
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: college and people filled it in.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: And I think that what conservatives.
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: Need to understand is that it's okay to have a
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: perspective with your children. You don't have to kind of
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: tell them about the world and tell them that all
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: opinions are equal. In our house, we know that some
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: opinions are much better than other opinions, right right, there's
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: no Look. Do I tell them what the other perspectives are.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: I do.
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: But do I tell them that those perspectives are wrong
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: or my perspective is better?
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: Of course I do. That's the normal way to talk
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: about things, like I think that what.
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: I believe on issues A, B, and C are the
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: way that you should think about it. If you happen
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: to think a different way about it, let's discuss it.
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: But I'm not going to present all their perspectives that
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: I consider harmful or bad as equal to mine. They aren't,
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: And I think the kids need to hear that.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think your book actually inspired me to be
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: more upfront with my kids, because sometimes it can feel
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: like when you're parenting that there's so much going on
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: that doing the basic work. And actually, weirdly, COVID helped
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: me with this because I was homeschooling, so I was
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: a little bit on the ground floor of creating.
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: I want to creating, actually homeschooling, not you know, I
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: know you came up with the term zoom butler.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: I was not.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah I was. I was not zoom butlering. I was
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: actually homeschooling. But it helped because I got to shape
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: and build the foundation of their understanding of why they're
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: so blessed to live here in this time, in this country.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: And we do a lot of emphasis on that, and
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: we do faith teachings in our house, and we do
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: not leave it to chance that some rando will come
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: along and be like, hey, I've got a new idea
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: for you that is and it has nothing to stand
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: up against it, right, you know, I don't want to
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: leave that vacuum. I do want my kids to be
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: free thinkers. That's one of the values that we that
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: we talk about is that you can have that back
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: and forth. But I will say that having a conversation
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: with my kids this weekend about Charlie Kirk specifically is
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: tough because I don't want them to be scared for me, right,
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: and it's hard to communicate this without them drawing that
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: conclusion absolutely.
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: The other thing that I would say, so two things. One,
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: keep your kids off TikTok. I know I hear parents
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: all the time say how how do.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: You keep your kids off TikTok?
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: You just don't let them download it, like if you
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: if you must do Instagram. Instagram reels very similar to TikTok,
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: usually a few weeks behind. I just find them to
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: be less radicalizing, less intense, They come across, less crazy stuff.
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: I mean, I want to inta I never see kind
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: of insane things that I know my friends see on TikTok.
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: Them off TikTok. Well, today Trump announced a TikTok deal
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: has been reached. Young people will be very happy. I'm
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: definitely concerned about that, you know, talking about things of
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump and I disagree on I think TikTok needs
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: to be sold. I think he needs to follow the
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: Supreme Court on this. And I think TikTok is harmful.
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: It's actively harming our children, and it's not accidental.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: It's harm it's harming them on purpose. It is a
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: weapon being used by the CCP, by the Chinese Communist
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: Party exactly. Yeah, now that I do think the idea
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: of giving your kids unfettered social media access when they're young,
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: and a lot of people do throw up their hands
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: and go like, what, well, how can I not give
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: them that?
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: And I understand that COVID made that harder because they
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: made you stay at home, right, it made you work.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: They didn't have your kids in school, and you were like,
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: my kid needs these devices to make friends with people
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: because they won't let us go out in the real world.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: I get that, and also we have to modulate like that.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: It's just yeah, it's very very toxic. I mean I have,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: as you know, we both have a brand. I've been
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: on social media since I was came out, right, Like
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: since it came out. I was on Friendster, right, But
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: I was a fully grown person with a full frontal
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: lobe when I became a public figure who had this
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: kind of feedback that is essentially what everyone gets now
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: right before, I had that real time feedback about myself.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: And I can't imagine how I would have turned out
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: had I had that When I was thirteen years old.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: It absolutely really would have been devastating.
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: The second thing I want to say, well, we'll wrap
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: up after this, but you know, you talk about faith,
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: and it's you know, I'm often jealous of Christians because
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: I feel like you guys can find openly conservative spaces,
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: and it's so much hart in the Jewish world. I'm
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: not Orthodox, and I have written so many complaints about
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: how hard it is in the Jewish world to be
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: a small c conservative, even though a lot of Jews
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: are moving to the right in the last you know,
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: let's call it almost two years now. But what I'll
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: say is I'm going to make an effort to find
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: other Jewish conservatives to be able for that. I feel
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: fairly open. I was born in the Soviet Union. As
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: you know, my community is very conservative. I've always felt
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: very open about my politics, but I know that other
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: Jews don't. I'm going to try to forge more community
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: for myself, for others like me, in order for them
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: to be more open about who they are politically, and
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: so that they could pass that along to their kids
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: as well. I think you need to have that, and
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: you need to have other people in your universe, in
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: your faith in your politics so that your kids can
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: see other families like yours. You can't do it in
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: a silo. If you are trying to do it in
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: a silo, please find others like whether you know you're
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: Christian or Jewish or anything else, find other people that
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: share your faith, that share your politics. Raise your kids together,
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: create something for your children to have a defense against
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: all the bad ideas that they will inevitably hear.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they've done the opposite of silencing us.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: Whoever you know, the shooter, this murderer, the opposite of
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: silencing me. I am going to be.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're bortter than ever.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: Probably, I'm probably going to put more things on more
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: different social medias. And you know, like you said, join
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: with other families who, by the way, are having four
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: and six kids each yep, to the one on the
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: other side, and making sure that we are inculcating all
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: of that stuff so another generation can can appreciate the
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: things that we have grown up with.
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: In this house, we protect our values, live it.
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us on normally normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays,
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. Get
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: in touch with us at normally the pod at gmail
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: dot come. Thanks for listening and when things get weird
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: act normally