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265: How to Build Accountability Without Micromanaging · Customer Service Revolution | Customer Experience & Employee Experience for Business Leaders

• 0:46
  Welcome back to the Customer Service Revolution Podcast with John DiJulius Have
• 0:51
  you ever delegated something, walked away,
• 0:54
  and discovered too late that the work wasn't progressing the way you expected?
• 0:58
  The next time you check in more often,
• 1:00
  you ask for constant updates on it,
• 1:03
  you review every detail, and before long,
• 1:05
  you're micromanaging. And your employee is afraid to make even
• 1:08
  the smallest decision without you.
• 1:11
  Today, we're answering an important leadership question.
• 1:14
  How do you build accountability without constantly looking over people's shoulders?
• 1:18
  Because accountability without clarity feels like control.
• 1:22
  But autonomy without accountability can feel like abandonment.
• 1:26
  John, welcome back. this is I think this is a topic that a lot
• 1:31
  of leaders struggle with.
• 1:32
  including me, my my whole career.
• 1:35
  It's it's goes from one extreme to the other.
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  I think when I mentor
• 1:43
  entrepreneurs early on in their career probably the biggest mistake I
• 1:48
  see is that they feel they need to do everything.
• 1:51
  And and and if I hire someone to do this,
• 1:54
  it's gonna take it's gonna take me longer to show them if I would just
• 1:58
  do it and they're not gonna do it right like I do it the first few times.
• 2:03
  And that's all true. But
• 2:07
  you know, y you have to look at what your your best value is that you bring
• 2:12
  to your organization. As a leader,
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  as an entrepreneur, as a CO, managing partner,
• 2:17
  whatever that may be, and everything you're not everything you're doing that
• 2:24
  is taking away from what you what you you you bring the most value to your company.
• 2:29
  It may be relationships, it may be the vision,
• 2:32
  it may be the strategy, it may be you know,
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  whatever. But if you're looking stamps and stuffing envelopes because
• 2:38
  it saves you fifteen, eighteen dollars an hour or whatever,
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  or, you know, I'm gonna update the website because,
• 2:47
  you know, I haven't trained anybody how to do it and I'm gonna do
• 2:51
  it so much quicker.
• 2:53
  but what ends up happening is right,
• 2:55
  y y the business becomes dependent on you.
• 2:57
  One of my favorite quotes of this is the entrepreneur should be
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  the least valuable short term asset a company has.
• 3:07
  Least valuable short term asset.
• 3:09
  And then I I guess you could probably take it to a leader of a department
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  is kind of the same thing. you know,
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  they're the entrepreneur of that that
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  team, that department, that location.
• 3:20
  But if if if if if you take someone out of you know that leader,
• 3:27
  that entrepreneur out of the business for a month or two months,
• 3:30
  you shouldn't see anything you know recognizable the business should still
• 3:36
  be doing what it's you know doing.
• 3:39
  It's it's that when you when the entrepreneur is gone for six months,
• 3:43
  Yeah, they're not creating the next,
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  the future, looking around corners,
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  what they potentially do. So yeah,
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  so so early on I I think we all make the mistake of h thinking we have
• 3:55
  to do everything. but what ends up happening is the things we aren't great
• 4:00
  at that we're still doing, obviously we're not doing as well as as someone else that
• 4:04
  could be dedicated to it. And then the things we are great at we're
• 4:08
  not doing well because
• 4:10
  we don't give it enough of our time.
• 4:12
  and again, whatever that may be,
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  generating sales, you know, hiring,
• 4:16
  you know, looking at the next thing.
• 4:18
  So i i it is a a a really hard fine line to walk.
• 4:24
  Yeah, there's a balance there.
• 4:26
  let's start with the distinction that leaders often struggle to recognize.
• 4:30
  What is it that separates healthy accountability from micromanagement?
• 4:36
  Well, listen, if you're gonna grow a and you wanna grow and and
• 4:40
  I believe most people do, you have to hire really good people and get
• 4:45
  out of their way. now it depends on on on on these good people.
• 4:51
  Do they have experience? Like you and Eric and a lot of our team members didn't have
• 4:56
  experience when when you came aboard.
• 4:59
  you're green, but you love the company,
• 5:01
  love the vision. So you guys probably needed a little bit more direction,
• 5:06
  right? But I'm sure, you know,
• 5:08
  I I I went too far. But so so you need direction,
• 5:12
  you need coaching, unless you're hiring people with,
• 5:16
  you know, decades of experience,
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  you know, that they're bringing the value to you.
• 5:21
  But either way, you gotta hire really,
• 5:23
  really good people.
• 5:25
  create what the outcomes need to look like and then get out of their way.
• 5:31
  and it kind of goes to the one thing that great leaders speak last,
• 5:37
  right? And and and so you don't want to say,
• 5:39
  all right, Denise, we need to have this project strategy accomplished by Q of
• 5:47
  quarter four of this year. Then that's fine.
• 5:50
  But then let Denise decide and game plan and then,
• 5:56
  you know, y be an advisor. but if you tell her your thoughts initially,
• 6:02
  it's called dropping an anchor.
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  And you know, it could be like,
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  hey Denise, you know, do whatever you want.
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  One thought I had was we should do this first and then I would do this
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  and I would do that.
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  And you know that's that's dropping the anchor.
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  Now most people aren't gonna go against that.
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  because now if they fail. So you got you y the the person needs to own it.
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  besides just the execution, they need to own it.
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  I think that's really, really important.
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  And so yeah, become an advisor,
• 6:31
  become a a consultant to them,
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  but let them let them fail.
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  You know, failing is i is great and celebrate the failure.
• 6:40
  I that's a an excellent point.
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  Let them fail. I think there are a lot of people that are afraid to fail,
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  worried about what the consequences could be.
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  you also brought up about you know,
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  new people hiring people that are experienced.
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  Or you have to find a way to train them otherwise.
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  And I think when we talk about myself and Eric,
• 6:59
  we were super fortunate that you had time to work with us and train us.
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  But not every leader owner has that kind of time when they hire someone.
• 7:09
  So if you hire someone that's green,
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  what do you what do you do with them?
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  What do you recommend training wise?
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  Well, obviously you you you have two sets of training.
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  You you have your no matter what training for everyone to understand
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  the core values and the mission and vision and you know,
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  the you know, operations and and technical side and then the
• 7:29
  the service aptitude skills. That has to be whether you're hiring a janitor or a CO.
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  Now if we're talking about a a leadership position,
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  you know, ideally
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  if if if you talk about green,
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  you wanna help them get there and and and you know you and Eric and and
• 7:49
  and for our listeners, you and Eric s started with and me,
• 7:53
  you know, your 30 plus years, Eric is twenty-eight plus years,
• 7:57
  in the salons, my first business,
• 8:00
  and you were both
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  Just customer facing employees,
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  if you will, and I I I shouldn't have said just.
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  But you didn't have, I don't think,
• 8:08
  a leadership title y you know,
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  when you started. but you did great and you know,
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  we were growing as a result. And so it's like,
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  hey, would you like to become a leader and b get people to
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  do what you're doing?
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  But y but but so so you have to have some leadership development,
• 8:28
  which is a a key component, developing existing and future leaders.
• 8:32
  If you're hiring someone that's,
• 8:34
  you know, done this at a higher level,
• 8:36
  great, they're gonna bring in the value.
• 8:37
  But if you're hiring someone who's green,
• 8:40
  and a lot of times that's because you can't afford to go out and recruit a top tier,
• 8:46
  you know, regional manager to come in.
• 8:50
  and and and and do that. So you have to make the time,
• 8:54
  whether it's it's it's the entrepreneur or,
• 8:56
  you know, now th th since then every leader
• 9:01
  we ever promoted or were thinking about promoting,
• 9:05
  you became that mentor to them when I no longer was around them.
• 9:10
  So that I I always quote this article,
• 9:13
  soul of a startup by Harvard Business Review.
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  And it's it's all about every company,
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  you know, I've ever met, you know,
• 9:22
  has gone through these growing pains.
• 9:24
  When you start, you know, everyone's gonna walk through a fire for Steve Jobs,
• 9:29
  Walt Disney, you know, John D.
• 9:31
  Julius, not put myself at their level,
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  but but the but but you know, like you said,
• 9:35
  it was it was just us against the world.
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  There was ten of us, there was twelve of us.
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  And you know, y y a lot of times the employees drove nicer cars than I did.
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  and they understood and had empathy and wanted to make sure this was a success.
• 9:50
  Well then you fast forward five,
• 9:52
  ten, twenty years later, and you know,
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  ever everyone says, well this isn't like it used to be,
• 9:59
  right? Because if if if if it done well,
• 10:03
  John can't be at the the front line working with them.
• 10:08
  You know, Steve Jobs couldn't be and so now they don't know them.
• 10:13
  and they aren't gonna walk through a fire like the initial founding employees
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  and they don't know their backstory.
• 10:20
  They just think, my God, you know,
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  they're rich, they drive a really nice car.
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  I heard he you know has a second house in Hawaii,
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  whatever that may be, and and you know,
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  God bless, but they don't have that emotional attachment,
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  connection, walk through a fire.
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  So
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  you th that that's what that whole article soul of a startup is the Denise they have
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  to have that feeling for Denise and you know the the they're the you know who's ever
• 10:49
  managing them and that's hard.
• 10:51
  That's really hard to do, but i the best companies do it.
• 10:56
  with micromanaging, I I don't think most leaders intend to micromanage.
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  They feel like they're protecting the quality of the work,
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  maybe an important deadline, or the customer experience.
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  Why do otherwise capable leaders fall into micromanagement?
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  I think it's good intentions. They want it to be successful.
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  They have anxiety that they're not doing it anymore and you know,
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  you don't know the nuances, you don't know the traps,
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  you don't know, you know, this,
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  whatever. And and they don't want the the whoever,
• 11:27
  the employee, the leader to fail and get,
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  you know, you know, lose morale and and their self esteem.
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  but
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  It's and then you start enabling.
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  You know, it's so much like parenting.
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  i you know, you just you you just people have to stumble on their own.
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  And we've always had this and I'm sure it's not isolated.
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  The other thing that that we forget is that you know,
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  an entrepreneur, CEO of thr they're just visionaries and they do chase
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  the next shiny object. And, you know,
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  delegated, hey Denise, I want you to do this.
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  And then the next day, Denise
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  This is our number one priority.
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  And then the next day, Denise,
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  this is our number one priority.
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  And it might not be three days in a row,
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  it might be three weeks in a row.
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  And I always try to remind my employees to push back on me,
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  because I don't remember what I told you last week that our number one priority is.
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  And say, That's fine, John. But where does last week's number one priority go?
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  And the one you said was the week before.
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  And that protects the the leader who's managing
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  the project because hopefully I'm gonna say one of two things.
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  last week that's not that's not that important anymore.
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  Or vice versa. No, no, no, that's still most important.
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  But either way, you have your ass covered,
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  right? Because whatever you choose to do,
• 12:50
  I'm probably come back and say,
• 12:52
  why didn't you do you know A or B?
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  And then you said because you told me C was you know C was the most recent thing
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  you told me. Well that didn't that didn't mean it trumped A and B,
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  but you can't know that. And so it kind of puts you know the the person leading
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  it in place to help you know what is most important.
• 13:12
  Because we forget all the things we're throwing at you.
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  And we might think they're either done or you read my mind that
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  It wasn't the most important thing.
• 13:24
  Yeah, clarity. Right? So when there's a
• 13:26
  Yeah, certainty. Yeah.
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  Yeah, sometimes
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  And that's why I I you know, whether it's EOS model,
• 13:32
  scaling up, I forget the other ones.
• 13:35
  They're all great. I think those are really good methodologies to lead because
• 13:41
  you know, they have the the big rocks,
• 13:44
  they have the company rocks, and there's limited,
• 13:46
  and you could speak on this more than I can because you do it for us.
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  they're limited. So what do you have?
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  Company rocks and then department and individual.
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  And that's a really nice thing.
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  And so you have, you know, now you know what,
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  you know, you you you we've agreed upon,
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  I believe, what how how many rocks can you have?
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  And explain what a rock is.
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  a rock is is basically a goal.
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  and it's based on what the company's goals are.
• 14:15
  So I have rocks that support the company's rocks.
• 14:18
  But ideally three to five is all someone should have
• 14:21
  Yeah.
• 14:22
  so that they they can do them.
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  Because we all
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  Yeah.
• 14:24
  have our regular job that's going on in addition to what these rocks
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  The minutiae,
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  the fires you gotta put out, all that.
• 14:31
  I always say, you know,
• 14:34
  you you can't have more than three must-do's today.
• 14:39
  Like this is not this is my personal to-do list,
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  right? Because fifty to ninety percent of your day is gonna come up as a surprise.
• 14:48
  A client needs
• 14:50
  someone's sick and you got a cover for them on their calls,
• 14:54
  their meetings, their present day,
• 14:56
  whatever the business model is.
• 14:57
  And so, you know, it's silly to have,
• 14:59
  you know, I'm gonna knock these ten things out today,
• 15:02
  because that's just not realistic.
• 15:05
  So three things. What three things can you not go home or finish your
• 15:10
  day until you knock those things out?
• 15:12
  And that's aggressive. I think those three things are aggressive.
• 15:16
  And I'm not talking about to-dos.
• 15:19
  that are e you know respond to so and so's email or that that that's
• 15:24
  not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about,
• 15:26
  you know, things that take thought,
• 15:28
  things that you have to get done,
• 15:29
  a proposal, a you know, presentation,
• 15:33
  not delivering the presentation,
• 15:35
  but getting the presentation ready,
• 15:38
  you know, those types of things.
• 15:40
  So I I like the EOS and scaling up very similar models because
• 15:46
  They they they they they you now you know as as a leader what and you've agreed with
• 15:52
  your team what their three to five rocks are goals for this quarter.
• 15:56
  And then there's a you know, a weekly communication,
• 16:00
  whether it's in person or a report that you know,
• 16:05
  you get and it says, All right,
• 16:07
  here's where I'm at with, you know,
• 16:09
  the new website or here's where I'm at with
• 16:13
  the customer experience cycle.
• 16:14
  you know, we just did the workshop and,
• 16:17
  you know, y now I'm downloading it and getting you know,
• 16:20
  sending out those copies to all the heads of departments to get their thoughts
• 16:26
  on what's missing and what and so there there you you you have a a weekly cadence
• 16:31
  of progress and then you can see if someone's gonna be off.
• 16:35
  But also they have to know that if they
• 16:38
  get in and and they are are off pace.
• 16:41
  They have to reach out to their leader to say,
• 16:45
  hey, what would you do in this situation?
• 16:47
  That's gotta be it's gotta they gotta feel comfortable doing that,
• 16:51
  and you know, not punished or judged.
• 16:54
  and and sometimes it's just, you know,
• 16:56
  the the people need to hear from the leader saying,
• 16:59
  Hey, Denise sent this out.
• 17:01
  This is our number one priority.
• 17:03
  You need to respond, right? Whatever that may look like,
• 17:07
  without throwing Denise under the bus to,
• 17:09
  you know, the the the coworkers,
• 17:12
  but you know, depending on the level of gravitas that entry level leader has,
• 17:17
  they might not have that where anybody's listening to them.
• 17:20
  So
• 17:21
  here's another thing that and listeners,
• 17:23
  if you're not familiar with EOS or scaling up,
• 17:26
  I'm gonna put links in the show notes so you can link to those and read about it.
• 17:32
  A another thing that happens with micromanaging,
• 17:35
  leaders sometimes delegate the task,
• 17:37
  but then they continue dictating every step used to complete it.
• 17:42
  How can a leader remain firm about the expected outcome while giving
• 17:46
  the employee freedom over the method that they use to get it done?
• 17:49
  Yeah, I mean that's you know, Steve Jobs says,
• 17:52
  you know, hire really good people and get out of their way.
• 17:55
  Hire really smart people and get out of their way.
• 17:57
  And you know, I I don't know why I I think and you and please correct me
• 18:02
  if I'm I think I'm a a great delegator and maybe too much.
• 18:08
  And you know, I I I you know I don't wanna be,
• 18:12
  you know, that's just not my job.
• 18:13
  I i it's someone else's job.
• 18:15
  I don't know. Yeah, I'm sure you have other stories of where I I I micromanage.
• 18:20
  I know I certainly micromanage early on in my career,
• 18:22
  but I don't know, I just like getting out of people's way and then just
• 18:25
  be there when they need advice.
• 18:29
  But you have to. It has they have to own it and they have to be proud
• 18:34
  of it versus just a taskmaster that that's that's not a fulfilling job.
• 18:39
  And it's also hurting the company because if I'm,
• 18:41
  you know
• 18:42
  micromanaging you, w I'm not doing whatever the biggest value I bring
• 18:47
  in in our world, me creating content,
• 18:50
  connecting with our CEOs of our best clients and presenting,
• 18:56
  you know, at events, consulting,
• 18:59
  podcasts, writing, all that. That's we all know that's where I bring
• 19:04
  in the most value. Anything that I do away from that is hurting our business.
• 19:10
  So yeah, I and i if if you have to do it,
• 19:13
  then you might have the wrong person or you are truly a micromanager.
• 19:17
  I always love to give this example back to my first comment about where
• 19:22
  I deal with mentor young entrepreneurs,
• 19:25
  and they're like, No one can do it like me.
• 19:27
  Walt Disney, I don't know how many people know this,
• 19:29
  but Walt Disney was the original voice of Mickey Mouse.
• 19:33
  And I think that might have been in the forties.
• 19:36
  Maybe fifties, I don't know. And to think about that,
• 19:39
  right? What an important role that was.
• 19:42
  I mean Mickey Mouse was the business.
• 19:45
  and to think that no one could do that.
• 19:49
  You know, he knew the tone, the cadence,
• 19:51
  the psarc w whatever.
• 19:53
  But what if he never would have delegated that out?
• 19:56
  Yeah, if he would have remained
• 19:56
  Yeah.
• 19:57
  a voice actor versus the visionary and
• 19:59
  He had to be the voice of Mickey Mouse.
• 20:02
  yeah.
• 20:02
  And then the other thing I love to talk about with the same same story,
• 20:06
  because you know, no one thinks their business could survive without him,
• 20:11
  is a lot of people don't know this,
• 20:13
  Disney died two or three years before Walt Disney World opened.
• 20:18
  Like that blows my mind.
• 20:21
  That, and look.
• 20:24
  what it was and what it's become.
• 20:26
  And he wasn't around for any of it.
• 20:28
  He was around for the vision. But we use that listen,
• 20:33
  when we lost my wife Stacy, she was,
• 20:36
  you know, the Walt Disney of John Roberts,
• 20:38
  and there was a lot of obviously nervousness of if the company could survive without
• 20:44
  her. And that's what we leaned on was that Disney story.
• 20:48
  you know, of like look what DeWalt Disney has become for sixty years,
• 20:54
  without him. We had the advantage of having her for you know,
• 21:00
  fifteen years of of the salon,
• 21:02
  sixteen years, seventeen years,
• 21:04
  whatever it was. And so that was our that was our like thing that we would rally
• 21:10
  the people around.
• 21:12
  you know, for that. So yeah, it your business is is worth nothing if you're
• 21:17
  the most important person in the short term.
• 21:20
  Yeah, look at who was it, Gaudi who designed Sagrada de Familia
• 21:25
  in Barcelona that took
• 21:27
  Yeah.
• 21:27
  way longer than his lifetime to complete.
• 21:30
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 21:30
  Yeah. ~
• 21:32
  you know, it's funny, I was thinking about this like with the step by step,
• 21:35
  and and oftentimes we feel like we are the ones that know how to do it best.
• 21:40
  And I maybe
• 21:41
  Maybe the people maybe the people I work with will feel differently.
• 21:44
  But I I don't think I'm terrible at that at work.
• 21:47
  I think I give people autonomy,
• 21:49
  but at home or like house projects in that
• 21:54
  I feel like I am the worst. If we're hanging a television,
• 21:57
  which I have never hung before,
• 22:00
  I'm gonna tell you how to do it every step of the way.
• 22:02
  Really?
• 22:02
  Have
• 22:03
  input. I'm terrible and I don't know like I have to like physically think,
• 22:07
  keep your mouth shut, keep your mouth shut,
• 22:09
  keep your mouth shut, keep your mouth because I just feel like I have
• 22:12
  a better way than what it appears how you're doing it.
• 22:16
  Yeah, I don't know what that is.
• 22:17
  I think of
• 22:18
  Mel Robin's latest book, Let Them.
• 22:21
  Let them. Just let them, you know,
• 22:23
  when people are doing
• 22:23
  Yeah, well
• 22:24
  I mean yeah we have examples, right?
• 22:25
  We have the the when we started the customer service revolution conference,
• 22:31
  you know, nine nineteen two thousand and nine,
• 22:34
  I was heavily, heavily planned everything,
• 22:38
  all the aspects. and it was good,
• 22:40
  but eventually we hired and put people in place and the team kinda took
• 22:47
  it over and it got so much better.
• 22:50
  And I had a lot less to do with,
• 22:52
  you know, so many of of the parts other than getting
• 22:58
  the speakers and then, you know,
• 23:00
  our theme and the content on stage.
• 23:02
  But there was so much more to that conference than just that.
• 23:07
  And it you know, they all made it better that I never could have made it.
• 23:12
  taking it to that level. So I yeah you're also you know,
• 23:16
  that's the fulfillment of someone's job that they could put their fingerprint
• 23:21
  on it and this is theirs. And so,
• 23:24
  yeah. That's why I could do John
• 23:25
  Yeah, that's a different problem for leadership.
• 23:28
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• 23:30
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• 23:33
  stronger leadership, and a more consistent employee and customer experience,
• 23:38
  The DiJulius Group can help. We work with organizations
• 23:41
  to build practical leadership and service systems that turn expectations into
• 23:46
  repeatable behaviors. Visit TheDiJuliusGroup.com to learn more or schedule
• 23:52
  a call at tdg.click forward slash call.
• 23:57
  do you think it ever comes up that leaders hold on to things so tight?
• 24:02
  You know, they they give their people little bits to to work on
• 24:06
  and and micromanage it all. And part of it is because they like people dependent
• 24:11
  on them.
• 24:12
  I hope not. ~ Need be in need.
• 24:13
  You know, there's a sense of job security
• 24:16
  or or maybe applause that, you know,
• 24:19
  I still get credit for this because I held their hand the whole way through.
• 24:24
  It's probably not someone who should be in leadership,
• 24:25
  Yeah, I guess I guess right.
• 24:27
  but
• 24:29
  I guess that you know, I hope it's a minority,
• 24:31
  but you know, that they have to take credit and they I don't know,
• 24:34
  I think the best leaders allow someone to do it and and and and let them get credit.
• 24:39
  so I hope that that doesn't exist,
• 24:44
  but I'm sure it does. That it has to be their idea.
• 24:47
  I just don't see the benefit. I just I mean that's just
• 24:50
  you go so much further, when other people are doing it,
• 24:55
  it frees you up and you're building your replacements and,
• 25:00
  you know, it keeps on moving you up.
• 25:01
  So I I I'm not sure. I I got you know,
• 25:03
  I hope not.
• 25:05
  let's say expectations were clear,
• 25:07
  the employee has all the necessary resources to complete the project at hand,
• 25:13
  and the commitment was still missed.
• 25:14
  How should the leader handle that conversation without immediately taking back
• 25:20
  control of it?
• 25:21
  Yeah, well hopefully you you should never be surprised because if you have
• 25:27
  a a weekly cadence, whether that's a check in,
• 25:30
  it's a check in, you know, you know,
• 25:32
  in the Zoom or one on one or you know,
• 25:36
  the reports that say, All right,
• 25:38
  here's my top four goals I have to accomplish by end of Q three and here's where
• 25:44
  I'm at. And then, you know, maybe have a third thing,
• 25:48
  you know.
• 25:48
  likelihood of hitting it that the that the person who's executing it can say.
• 25:54
  And so there you can catch you know,
• 25:56
  why aren't you on pace to hit it?
• 25:58
  What do you need from me? I I I I don't know why there'd be a surprise that,
• 26:04
  you know, October first we have a sit down and you didn't hit three
• 26:09
  of your four goals.
• 26:11
  that shouldn't that shouldn't be the first time you know either party
• 26:16
  is talking about that. So just being able to communicate weekly,
• 26:21
  giving that them you know the coaching and the advising if it's the first time,
• 26:26
  yeah, and and and they're greener,
• 26:28
  that is more likely to happen.
• 26:30
  And that's why you might coach more or offer support availability
• 26:37
  more.
• 26:38
  without my them feeling like they're micromanaging.
• 26:41
  I always love, you know, the and I'm sure it's hard to do and it's hard for
• 26:45
  me to do is where you, you know,
• 26:47
  someone like you would bring me a a situation saying I'm struggling with this
• 26:51
  and it's so easy to jump in and say,
• 26:54
  Well that's because you haven't done this,
• 26:55
  this, this, and this obviously the right answer is,
• 26:58
  Well what do you think? What do you think's you know
• 27:01
  W what what do you think? And then let you kind of talk out loud,
• 27:04
  bounce ideas off me, and you know y you know,
• 27:08
  you'll you'll you'll probably get it what I was about to tell you,
• 27:13
  or you might do something better and I'm like,
• 27:16
  well why don't you try that? And that's so much better because you came
• 27:21
  up with it versus me saying, Well Dee,
• 27:22
  it's why don't you do X? you know,
• 27:25
  I think it's so important to let the employee
• 27:29
  project lead, whatever we're talking about in this case,
• 27:31
  have that autonomy.
• 27:33
  not every employee or assignment deserves the same level of autonomy though.
• 27:38
  A new employee, repeated performance issues or a high risk project might require
• 27:45
  more supervision. When is closer oversight appropriate and how should
• 27:50
  the leader explain it?
• 27:51
  I think early on in the employee's tenure,
• 27:54
  depending if it's a if it's if if we're talking about just an employee
• 27:58
  or an employee who's recently getting into leadership,
• 28:02
  either one would need it until they have a track record.
• 28:05
  so I think, you know, and and and having them have a mentor if it's between
• 28:09
  you and them or you're their mentor,
• 28:11
  but I think it's it's like anything,
• 28:13
  it's it's it's a little bit more hand holding.
• 28:16
  It's a little bit more collaboration versus now when they have a a a track record,
• 28:22
  you get out of their way. Denise,
• 28:24
  you know, you you got this, don't hesitate.
• 28:28
  But I'll also look at your your weekly reports or our weekly level
• 28:34
  10 call, and I'll, you know, maybe ask you some questions if you seem like you're
• 28:40
  not on track.
• 28:41
  Yeah, I think the communications and check-ins are really important,
• 28:44
  some type of system for that. for leaders that are listening who want
• 28:48
  to stop micromanaging tomorrow,
• 28:50
  what simple accounting system,
• 28:52
  accountability system, should they begin using?
• 28:56
  Well, I I think number one, your your objec objective
• 29:02
  for what the outcome is has to be so crystal clear.
• 29:05
  and then, you know, how they're gonna go about it,
• 29:09
  you know, is it a is it is they manage it,
• 29:13
  do they have a team? You know,
• 29:14
  have they managed a team before?
• 29:17
  'Cause that's that's really where a lot of things come into problem is they might
• 29:22
  you know, they might be, you know,
• 29:24
  someone in a department, customer experience.
• 29:27
  And that's not a department, that's a that's a that's a a position,
• 29:31
  right? But that person is dependent on the different department leads.
• 29:36
  Operations, sales, marketing, you know,
• 29:40
  all those others to contribute.
• 29:43
  And and again, do they have the gravitas?
• 29:47
  are those you know you know are those people gonna respond in a timely manner,
• 29:51
  give them the the the so a clear,
• 29:54
  clear, crystal clear objective,
• 29:57
  what the what victory looks like,
• 30:00
  what you know, specifically by a certain date,
• 30:04
  and then your endorsement, you being the you know lead senior executive,
• 30:10
  that everyone knows, besides just the project lead.
• 30:16
  you know, i i in customer experience,
• 30:18
  you know, everyone knows this is our our one of our top three big rocks
• 30:22
  in twenty twenty six. And Denise is championing this and she's gonna need your
• 30:27
  support. And whatever Denise whatever path she takes,
• 30:31
  I'm fine with. But make sure you support her and you are not the reason
• 30:36
  for the delay. So yeah, just just kind of that,
• 30:39
  you know,
• 30:40
  w when when the senior executive,
• 30:43
  you know, comes from them, now everyone's gonna respond,
• 30:47
  or know to respond.
• 30:50
  Here's another one that I was just thinking about.
• 30:52
  Would it how d how does a leader
• 30:55
  not micromanage when you have an employee who is very low risk,
• 31:00
  who needs assurances all the way through,
• 31:03
  who comes
• 31:03
  What's low risk mean?
• 31:05
  to you, somebody who doesn't doesn't take a risk on on their own.
• 31:09
  I'm not I'm not
• 31:09
  ~
• 31:10
  gonna do it unless I know that these are exactly the steps I need to take.
• 31:14
  This is exactly the way that you want it to be done.
• 31:17
  How do you get that person to
• 31:20
  Become more autonomous.
• 31:22
  Yeah. So so it's i you know, again,
• 31:24
  celebrate failures. Maybe it's not their failure,
• 31:26
  maybe it's someone else's to demonstrate that that's that's a good thing that
• 31:31
  she that he or she took a chance,
• 31:34
  and you know, i it's it's we now know that that's not the way to go,
• 31:39
  but it was a gre we wouldn't know that otherwise.
• 31:42
  and then maybe, you know, y on on first ventures,
• 31:46
  first
• 31:48
  projects th th they have a a sponsor,
• 31:51
  they have a mentor, they have,
• 31:53
  you know, a co project lead that does have a a little bit more experience.
• 31:59
  And not everyone's gonna be, you know,
• 32:01
  successful and and and and you know we are going to have to,
• 32:05
  you know, cut losses. And I don't mean that you get rid of the person,
• 32:08
  it depending on what job we're talking about.
• 32:10
  But that
• 32:11
  you know, you have to step in with someone to help them get across the finish line.
• 32:16
  And then maybe ask, what did you learn from that,
• 32:19
  Denise? And then you could determine if,
• 32:21
  you know, she's a was a victim and,
• 32:24
  you know, she had no faults in it or yeah,
• 32:28
  I I didn't realize how how much work this was gonna be and I failed
• 32:32
  to emphasize that to the other people that I was dependent on.
• 32:37
  Now you you you know you you could tell that she's you know most likely gonna handle
• 32:41
  the next one better. But green is is hard.
• 32:44
  You can't I I don't think you should throw anything hard at someone totally green
• 32:48
  without support. And if you're that leader who's so busy,
• 32:54
  most leaders are, that you can't support them,
• 32:57
  you've got to make sure someone there is someone that can.
• 32:59
  Here's a
• 33:00
  'Cause the
• 33:00
  other mistake the other mistake,
• 33:01
  you know, I've made is I I I I've delegated and and don't look at it
• 33:06
  and assume it's gonna be done.
• 33:07
  When it's not done, I'm disappointed.
• 33:10
  And that goes back to me. I waited two months without checking in
• 33:15
  or reading the reports or whatever.
• 33:18
  And that that that person was in over their head and I I could have easily helped
• 33:22
  them if I would have
• 33:25
  Paid attention. So whether it's me making sure I have the time or
• 33:28
  me having someone that monitors their progress.
• 33:32
  All right, here's one for you.
• 33:33
  This is your final. What is one question a leader can ask instead of
• 33:39
  are you done yet?
• 33:41
  Mm.
• 33:42
  Some along the lines, how's it going?
• 33:43
  you know, how do you feel this is gonna you know,
• 33:46
  is it gonna be everything we had hoped?
• 33:48
  Is it gonna be a ten out of ten,
• 33:50
  a hundred out of a hundred? And what do you need from me to make it that?
• 33:53
  What is what is keeping you from,
• 33:56
  you know, or what pot what's the biggest potential obstacle keeping
• 34:02
  us again, let's use Q three,
• 34:06
  end of Q three as as the goal.
• 34:08
  how's the project going? You might say,
• 34:10
  good, you know, give me you know whatever and then say,
• 34:13
  All right, what's the one reason why we won't be popping champagne on October first,
• 34:20
  celebrating this? And then let's let's address it together.
• 34:25
  Yeah, figuring out those bottlenecks.
• 34:26
  That's good. ~
• 34:27
  Yeah.
• 34:29
  all right, listeners, accountability doesn't require hovering.
• 34:32
  It requires clear expectations,
• 34:34
  agreed upon checkpoints, honest feedback,
• 34:37
  and consistent follow through.
• 34:39
  When employees understand what success looks like,
• 34:42
  know which decisions they own,
• 34:44
  and feel safe discussing problems early,
• 34:46
  leaders can stop managing every move and employees can start owning the result.
• 34:51
  John, thank you for all the great insight again today.
• 34:54
  And everyone listening, remember:
• 34:56
  great leaders don't create people who wait for instruction.
• 34:59
  They create people who can be trusted to move the work forward.
• 35:02
  We'll see you next time on the Customer Service Revolution podcast.