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One Leg Up on Talk Radio With Talkers Magazine Founder Michael Harrison · OneLegUpAlex Media

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Here's your host, Alex Garrett. All right, well, my guests now
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on one leg up with Alex Garrett. Is someone I've been angling for because
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he's a friend of mine and a colleague and also a mentor. I would
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say, Michael Harrison in my know him as the Talkers founder, and of
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course he's a longtime radio programming pioneer. And Michael, you've finally joined the
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Alex Garrett podcast network and I'm so honored to have you today and I'm honored
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to be with you. Alex. It's great to be here. Let's have
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some fun. Indeed, now we'll get to the big story you know that
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you're involved with in twenty twenty four, but let's start off with who Michael
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Harrison is. Obviously, if you know Talkers, you know the whole heavy
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hundred, you know the Talkers podcast. But now you're on the interview e
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side. So what's it like though, being head of Talkers magazine? Talking
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about that for a second, I feel like I'm a if this were a
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movie with the Roman God or any kind of a war movie that I'm a
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century. I'm on twenty four seven, staying in touch with what's going on
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in the talk media world. There's always something happening, and often whenever there's
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news or something breaking one I have to know about it as fast as possible.
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But I also have to stay one step ahead of the press because I
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am often used as a go to guy by newspapers and television shows and magazines
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and radio shows to comment on all the news that's generated by talk media.
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So what it's like is it's like working twenty four hours a day and being
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in touch with a wide array of fascinating people and subjects. As someone who
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loves talk radio. You know this whole push to with the cars. Would
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they get AM radio out of the cars? I mean, it's been a
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talking point for a lot of people on air. For your position, though,
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what's the importance of having AM radio in the car? I'm looking at
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about stats all day, but I want to hear from someone who's been in
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this a long time and loves this medium called radio. Well, half of
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it is psychological and symbolic. I don't know how important it really is in
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the long run for AM radios to be in cars, but I do know
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that AM radio is important and AM radio being tossed out of cars for the
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convenience of the manufacturers and for them to save some money. I think it's
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premature and I think it hurts the image of radio in general, which although
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the numbers bear out the fact that radio is still a vital medium. It's
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culturally relevant, it is valuable from a standpoint of its role in public safety.
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It's valuable in terms of its role in communicating with people not just in
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America but around the world who may not have computers or Wi Fi or even
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FM radios in their area. I could go on for an hour about all
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of the functions of AM radio. So when the cars are dumping them,
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you know, for these digital dashboards, and when they dump AM radio,
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you can be sure they're going to dump FM radio as well. It's not
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good for people that rely on these media, But it also isn't good symbolically
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for the future of radio in general and what kind of faith people have in
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its longevity going forward. So that's why I'm saying it's it's symbolic as well
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as utilitarian, And ultimately I think everything will be digital and there won't be
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an AM or an FM, but not now, maybe five, ten,
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fifteen years from now. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. So
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that's my position on the am radio in cars issue. You've had John Katzimatitis
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at the Talker's Convention a couple of you know, a few years in a
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rows and he bought w ABC, but he was a champion for that,
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And what are your thoughts on that effort, because he really did his work
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to save the am radio if you will form the car. Yeah, he's
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done a lot. He's a very influential member of the broadcasting community. He's
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also a very influential member of the business community, and he's a very influential
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member of the political community. Well, broadcasting, business and politics will come
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together on this issue. He owns one of the major radio stations in the
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country and it just happens to be seventy seven w ABC, seven seventy on
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the am dial. Well, it's nice to have an ally like that in
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your ranks. And yeah, he wields influence, he knows people, he's
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well connected, and he's not shy. So there's no question John Katzimatidis has
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played a very important role in saving am radio from from its fate of being
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tossed out of the car. Well, you have two and I gotta ask
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you this because as a as a radio pioneer and as a consultant these you
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know, as well as to all these different talk show hosts and talent,
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has your role adapted Like even with the streaming world and as you've seen radio
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evolved, what what's your role been as a radio programming pioneer. I mean,
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is there an adaptation that you're seeing and that you're doing with talkers and
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in your own world of consulting different talent along the way. I've always been
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future based. I'm a futurist and I have a tremendous history in the business.
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I know history and I respect history. You know, to throw the
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old cliche if you don't learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it and
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all that. I believe that. So I believe it's very important if you're
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going to be a person of the present and a person of the future,
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to have a good hand handle on history. But I'm not a merchant of
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nostalgia. I can be nostalgic. I can sit and talk to you about
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the good old days, you know, for hours on end, but I
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don't do that in terms of my work. I have always since day one,
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been on the cutting edge, the leading edge of what's coming up,
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and I'm still let way, I'm the same guy today that I was thirty
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years ago, sixty years ago. I'm in the business now as a professional
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broadcaster for fifty six years. How do you like them? Apples? I
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love it? And I felt I felt the radio energy at that convention when
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I was there with you three years ago and I won the radio which my
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dad held on to for a long time, by the way, and I
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still remember that like it was yesterday. But so when you when you talk
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about the futuristic, I would say, the streaming is not going to kill
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radio. What's gonna add be in addition to radio? Right? I feel
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like the streaming option of streaming live radio is a way to evolve radio.
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Right. Well, it depends on whether you're talking about radio the appliance or
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radio the concept. It's like movies. Are we talking about cinema that's played
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in the theater. Are we talking about a streaming television show made by a
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TV production company. We often misuse, misplace, or misunderstand the names the
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categories that we give to these media artifacts, if you will. Radio started
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out with crystal Crystal radios. They didn't even have electricity. They had quartz
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that was vibrating and it would pick up the AM signal of a nearby station
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and you'd be able to hear it. Kids would build their own crystal sets.
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I know that's way before your time. I don't know if you hadn't
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heard of such a thing, but radio originally was heard on crystal sets,
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and then there was AM radio, and then they had radios that were AM
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and shortwave radio. Taxi dispatchers and they used to hold the microphone, you
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know, to their hand that it was on a wire or police cars.
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That's a form of radio. Walkie talkies is radio. So when you say
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radio, what do you mean. We're talking about a kind of programming that's
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part show business, part journalism. It's part news, it's sports, it's
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information, it's entertainment, and it has shows. And when you have a
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station, it is a platform like a theater with continuous one show after another
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after another, and sometimes the theater takes on a tone, a mode,
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an image, and that becomes a format. So I don't think that radio
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as a guy like you and a guy like me and the people listening to
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your podcast understand it is dependent upon whether it comes out of an AM device
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and FM device and AMFM device or a smartphone device. That to some people
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today is sort of what when I was a kid, the transistor radio was.
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I'm willing to be bolden, go out on a limit and say I
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think more radio listening is done online today than on air. The ratings don't
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bear that out, But then again, i'm a critic of the ratings.
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I don't think the ratings are necessarily the be all and end all effect.
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So as long as people understand that there is value in audio communication that takes
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in all of those elements within one package. Entertainment, information, companionship,
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so business, fun, cutting edge observations, freedom of speech. I mean,
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it's like Gluis Armstrong once said, if you have to ask what jazz
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means, you don't really know what it is. You'll never know. Radio
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is hard to define, but we know what it is, and it doesn't
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matter what the device is that you're listening to, whether it's streamed or it
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goes through the air, and of course you know streaming also goes through the
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air. Everything ironically that's on the Internet that we think of is not on
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air. It's actually on air too. WiFi is a form of radio.
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I'm conducting this interview with you using a combination of Internet, WiFi and wired,
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so that my answer is it depends on the people programming it and what
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people who listen to it are coming to expect, not what this technology means.
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Although if you really want to be smart, you have to realize that
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changes in technology create changes in sociology. So it's not so important about what
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the technology is. Is what is your grasp of sociology If you are a
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radio broadcaster, and that's where you have to keep up with the times.
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But you'd have to do that even if it was always on AM and FM
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and never went to another platform. Times still change, and I think that
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one of the fundamental strengths of radio throughout its history is that whether it's information,
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entertainment, sports, news, whatever, it's always on the grassroots level,
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on the street level of sociology as opposed to be some high falutin academic
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thing or something that the average person, the average kid in the playground can't
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understand. You know, I'm not a little bit about cultural relevance on my
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podcast and how things are changing the way we say relevant in whatever form.
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I still feel like radio can be culturally relevant, right, even as we
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go towards the streaming life more, there is still a big cultural relevance to
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radio, isn't there. I think so that's what I think. Radio is
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one of the most culturally relevant media of all time, and it still is
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and it will continue to be if the people who are practitioners of radio understand
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that and are willing to do that. If people stop doing it, if
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suddenly the people in the radio business and the company is dedicated to being in
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the radio business give up on radio and everything has an audio visual component to
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it, and things are made for television as opposed to for audio media,
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well, then video killed the rock star. Then you would never you would
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never listen to anything unless you could see it or read it at the same
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time. That would truly be a tragedy. And I don't think that's going
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to happen. And the reasons I don't think it's going to happen is because
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I think there is a deep psychological, media theoretical and neurological difference between absorbing
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information through the ear then through the eye. It's also a very generational thing,
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right, so my father got me into radio. I'm s or your
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parents got you into radio. I mean a generational medium as well, isn't
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it. It is a generational medium. But then again, isn't everything generational?
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And the older you get, the more you realize that. I see
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things very differently today in terms of understanding my father's generation and my grandfather's generation
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and George Washington's generation than I might have at the age of twenty or thirty.
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You know, I just say that because I hope that my generation keeps
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the love of radio alive by passing on to their kids and so forth.
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Well we'll see, Well, they only they'll only they hang on a second.
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They'll only keep the love of radio alive if they do good radio.
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That's the key. It isn't the listener's obligation to keep the love of radio
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alive. It is the broadcasters obligation to keep the love of radio alive.
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It's this is a very important thing. Just being radio is not enough.
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You've got to be passionate, legent, professional, dedicated, and have the
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will to keep radio alive. Otherwise there's no there's nothing saying it deserves to
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be alive. I didn't mean to interrupt your next thought. No, No,
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I think I think that's an important point. Well, you got me
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on another point now, because I wasn't about that. We'll talk about the
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heavy hundred and a second, because that's always a sort of a big deal
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in the trades, if you will. When that list drops, I know
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everybody runs to it, like running to get get the papers and whatnot.
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Right, But I gotta ask you this, what's it like combining the love
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of radio with this podcast that you do with the Talkers podcast. I mean,
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I feel like some podcasts today are a little more relaxed and not as
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radio formatted, but I appreciate those who keep the radio format in a podcast
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that is possible. Right, Well, I mean, a good interview is
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a good interview my podcast to Michael Harrison interview, which is what I assume
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you're talking about, because it's the only podcast I do, and it's it's
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with people who were in the media. I interview people who in radio,
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not always, but mostly radio and talk media people because that's, you know,
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it fits in with the hall talker's environment. It may sound like radio,
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but it doesn't. It doesn't have you know, jingles, it doesn't
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I don't do time, I don't do time and weather. I it's it's
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a purer, more focused framework around it. It's not part of a continuum
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that goes on after it or before it. In terms of the show before
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you, the show after you, the show on the opposite side of the
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clock, the all night show, the afternoon drive show, breaking for the
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news, commercial breaks every seven minutes, time and temperature. The formatics of
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a live radio show, or even a radio show that's not live on a
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radio station are very different than the formatics in a podcast. Now. One
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of my personal issues is I love the radio station formatics. I love the
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whole idea of being on a radio station and doing the call letters and coming
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out of the news and rejoining and then going into a commercial break and running
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and going to the bathroom and coming back and getting there on time, and
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all that stuff that's in, you know, part of the experience of doing
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a radio show podcasting. You know, it's produced. It's not live.
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You mess up, you can edit it, you can fix it. It's
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a production more so than the stream of consciousness that the symphony, if you
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will, that is a radio show. This is very heavy stuff, Alex.
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It's very hard. In all the years I've been doing this, it's
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very hard to explain this. So I'm doing the best I can. But
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my voice sounds like a radio voice. So when I when you listen to
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my podcast, it could for a moment or two or three or five minutes,
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sound like it's on the radio, but ultimately you'll hear that it's a
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podcast designed to be a podcast, not a podcast carrying a rebroadcast radio show,
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which is another kind of podcast. It's a podcast, and it's not
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a radio show. It's a podcast, right with actual just non I'm limited
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conversation, like you can go as long as an hour if you want on
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a podcast. I get what you're saying there, right, but go ahead.
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You know you're not running up to the clock like you're always doing in
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radio with a podcast. I mean, you know this conversation we're having,
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if it has to go in extra five minutes, you're going to let that
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happen. You're not gonna go Well, we'll get back to that in just
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a moment, but first we got to take a break. I love it.
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I love doing interviews long form. And then if I if I do
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like do a splice, it's it's it's it's fun now. I just love
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putting it together and the art of going to break. It's still something I
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try and do on the podcast just because it's it's kind of fun to do,
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you know. Just you're something frustrated. You're a frustrated radio broadcast.
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You see, you're you. What you need to do is a podcast and
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a radio show. That way you can have your fun going up to breaks
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on the radio show and have your fun not caring about the breaks on your
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podcast. Very true, Michael, I do want to get the show on
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the radio one day. We'll see. But twenty twenty three Heavy hundred.
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Let's just talk about the Heavy hundred from its beginning. Where did the idea
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come from? And when did you start it? Because I only knew about
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it a few years ago when I first really got into radio. But how
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long have you been doing the Heavy hundred lists. I think we've been doing
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the Heavy hundred about thirty years, about thirty I can't say for sure.
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It's either twenty nine, thirty or thirty one years. It started out as
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the Heavy twenty five. We didn't call it that. It was the top
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twenty five. It was the most important twenty five talk show hosts in America,
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and we ran it Talkers when Talkers was a newspaper on print, and
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it got picked up by USA Today and they ran it and gave Talkers tremendous
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exposure for that, and I expanded it to the heavy hundred the next year.
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First of all, I've been making charts since I'm a kid, and
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I also, back in the music radio days, I was a chart maker.
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I was instrumental in designing some of the radio and records charts. I
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was the first managing editor there, and in nineteen eighty as a consultant,
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I rebamped some of the Billboard magazine music charts. When I was a kid,
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when I was eight years old, I used to sit and make record
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charts, comparing my opinion of what's number one, two, three, four
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in the top forty, etc. With what the local radio stations in New
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York were doing. And then I would hear the difference between w ABC's charts
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and wmca's charts and wmgm's charts, and I was interested in that. I
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also used to entertain myself sit on the side of the road on a big
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avenue with a yellow pad marking down when a Plymouth would go by, when
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a Ford would go by, when a Chevy would go by, when a
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foreign car would go by. There weren't as many foreign cars when I was
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a kid as there are now. And then I would keep stats on what
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the biggest cars being sold in America were. We're talking pre teen. I
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used to do this my own entertainment, and then I would compare my stats.
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Have to say, spending two hours on the side of the road on
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Hempstead Turnpike in Long Island where I grew up, which is a pretty you
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know, New York twenty four it's a pretty well known thoroughfare that goes from
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town to town to town. And I would see, oh my goodness,
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look at this Chevy. Came in number one on my thing, and it's
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one of the top two selling cars in America. And I would I would
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correlate my research with the real stats. So I've always been to that.
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When I was back in my music radio days, the word heavy was used
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to describe people who were important. Oh he's a heavyweight. Oh yeah,
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that guy, he's a heavy. Over Columbia Records, the word heavy was
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used to indicate importance. The brass that's really something just like in boxing the
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world sounds like a boxing analogy, right now, you know what I mean.
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So, so I came up with the term just fell into my head
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heavy hundred and the official name of that survey is the one hundred most important
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radio talk show hosts in America. It's still radio as opposed to talk media
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and uh, and that's where it came up. That's how that's how we
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started it. Everybody likes a horse race. Everybody wants to know who's number
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one, who's number two, who's bigger. In some cases, these measurements
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ALEX are really apples and oranges. It's not always fair, but the press
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demanded that Talkers Magazine create horse races for them, so we try to.
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I'm against horse races in certain businesses because again, it's like having a horse
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running against a donkey or a cow. It's apples and oranges. Different different
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animals, different entities, have different purposes. And with radio ratings, a
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little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. People that don't understand radio
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ratings just think in terms of number one, two, three, four.
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They don't understand demographics, they don't understand day part They don't understand time spent
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listening. They don't understand quarter our average, they don't understand weekly cume.
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I mean it's like, you know, who's number one? Well, wait
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a second, you know. And so I've always been trying to clarify these
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things to the media to understand how radio works while still speaking in the kind
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of terms that they get that they understand. So I considered much of that
23:06
kind of research to be BS, but I try to have our BS be
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the best, most accurate BS you'll fund. Well, what do you think
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about because I do know radio hosts put a lot of weight into talkers Heavy
23:19
hundred lists, And what does that mean to you that, yeah, these
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hosts. I think it's a responsibility. I take it as a serious responsibility,
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and all of us are talkers. I don't do this alone. Believe
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me, I'm still the main I'm with the buck stops, but I'm not
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the only guy involved. We have a tremendous staff of men and women who've
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been with talkers as long as the publication has been around for decades and really
23:45
understand it and its relationship to the industry. That being said, doing the
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heavy hundred every year is a stressful, tedious, difficult project. It doesn't
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come easy, and we take it very seriously. We understand the responsibility and
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we try to do it in a way that gives it purpose and supports the
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radio industry, that gives a good picture of what's going on in talk radio
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to the rest of the world that turns to talkers as a window to the
24:30
radio industry. Not only are we a vehicle for people in the radio industry
24:34
to communicate with each other in a sense of professional community, but we also
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are a window to the larger world of what radio is about. And in
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many ways, the Heavy hundred serves that purpose. Can you as a producer,
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I looked at that listen said, okay, well, if my host
24:53
is at a certain position, that's also partly because I did something right.
24:57
Is that Is that a fair assessment or is this talent only? Oh?
25:02
No, nobody You know when they say, no man is an island,
25:06
No radio personality is an island. A producer is a tremendous influence on the
25:15
quality of a show and the quality of a host. So usually you'll find
25:21
that the most successful hosts also have the best producers. You I can't even
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begin to explain the importance of a good producer and radio and I want to
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say, you're one of the best I've ever met, So you know,
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congrats to you. If we had a heavy hundred of producers, you'd be
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on it. Well, that means a lot. And I just I did
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not pay for that for anybody. No, I'd not say that. But
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this is very fascinating because I know it is a competition to get on this
25:55
heavy hundred every time. And so the fascinating thing though, is I always
25:59
as I thought this was based on maybe ratings you show, but a few
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minutes ago he said, it's not ratings at all. So it's a little
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bit of it's not It says if you go to Talkers dot com and you
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look at the heavy hundred, it's got a disclaimer that explains exactly what it
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is. And I'm not sitting in front of a computer at the moment,
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so I can't memorize it. But it has to do with a combination of
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longevity, originality, creativity, ratings, impact, dedication profile potential. I'm
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reading now. Actually I'm on the list right now, so yeah, go
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ahead, tell me the list. The Talkers magazine editors who pain take only
26:41
compile, so it's not just my it's a whole team. This superlist draw
26:45
upon a combination of hard and soft factors when evaluating candidates, including courage,
26:52
effort, impact, longevity, potential, ratings recognition, revenue, service talent,
26:59
and unique acknowledging that it is as much an art as science and that
27:03
the results are arguable. Oh yeah, interesting, So there you go.
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That's the mission statement of the talkers right right. And the key word.
27:15
The key word is the one hundred most important as opposed to the one hundred
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best, the one hundred biggest. We don't call them the biggest, we
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don't call them the best, we call them important. Because in radio and
27:33
in media, but in radio, particularly talk radio, influence is as important
27:41
as ratings. Influence is really where it's at, and it's very hard for
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the rating services to talk about influence. Influence turns, elections, influence effects,
27:56
sociology, and influence cell products. You can have a small audience with
28:03
an influential host, and that host if you advertise on that hosts show and
28:08
the host even does an endorsement, you could wind up with ten, twenty,
28:14
thirty, forty times as much reaction to your ad as if you were
28:18
on a music radio station or on a show where people didn't really care that
28:21
much about the personality that has a larger audience. That the size of the
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audience doesn't always indicate influence, and and this is a crucial aspect to understanding
28:36
a deeper level of media of pop culture, and in this case, the
28:40
heavy hundred. Well, that's a lot to digest. I'll have to re
28:45
listen to this show and digest that a lot of it more as as I
28:48
go. Then then I guess I'm not. Then I guess I'm not succeeding
28:51
because I'm I'm trying not to be too complicated. But on the other hand,
28:56
I'm not. I don't like to give quick the answers to subject.
29:03
Yeah, we just struck in my brain the idea of sponsorship, and I
29:08
always wonder if it's the station or the talent. I mean, people buy
29:12
into people's shows because they like what they're saying, right, I mean,
29:15
the talent brings in the sponsorship as much as the radio station does. The
29:22
talent is is a very key part to what is appealing about the station,
29:26
you know. I mean there are there are broadcasts where the talent is not
29:30
that important where there are other factors, and you know, shut up and
29:33
play the records, which is what began to be the end of music radio's
29:38
influence on the music culture. Music radio once owned the music culture. It
29:45
doesn't anymore because they told the DJs to shut up and play the records.
29:49
People don't want to hear you, they want to hear the songs. Well,
29:52
I don't know. That may not be the case. A lot of
29:56
them went into talk radio. But influence, engagement, trust, confidence,
30:04
companionship, a relationship with the audience is what brings people to a radio station
30:12
or to a podcast that's not on a radio station, And that is the
30:18
heart of the matter. You know, you've had so much experience over these
30:23
last decades. Any talent you remembers as a programming pioneer, coaching into success
30:30
if you will, are mentoring into success. I mean, any any stories
30:33
you'd like to share with us today before you the big news that's happening in
30:37
twenty twenty four. I've mentored so many thousands of radio personalities. I don't
30:42
even know where to begin, not only on the rock music level, but
30:49
certainly on the talk or I should say, not only on the talk level,
30:52
but on the music radio side as well. So I hesitate to answer
30:59
that one. I know you're looking for a cool story, but I maybe
31:06
I'd be better off telling you people that influenced me, and the people that
31:11
influenced The people that influenced me were of course Arthur Godfrey, Joe Pine,
31:21
Murray, the k Alan Freed. You know, I can, I can
31:26
go on and on, Barry Farber, very Gray, you know, the
31:30
people both in music and talk radio over the years. I'm I'm probably Missus
31:37
Roscoe on w n WFM. Alex Bennett, who used to do a talk
31:44
show on WMCA in New York, which otherwise was a top forty music station,
31:48
influenced me to become a talk show host at k and ET and Los
31:52
Angeles biggest rock station in its day on the West Coast, and I did
31:56
a general Jean Shepard influenced me absolutely. But I've I've meant, I mean,
32:06
maybe I've influenced you a little bit. I don't know, but but
32:12
I've My fingerprints are all over the medium. And uh, you know,
32:16
Sean Hannity is and somebody that I've had an influenced on all the way back
32:22
to his earliest days. I can go on and on, but you know,
32:27
I've a lot of people. When I first got hired by nine seventy,
32:30
you know, one of the shows that my dad pointed out right away
32:34
was one of his favorite shows, which is Touch of Gray and then boo,
32:37
there you are introducing that show, and I Carol Marks, and I
32:40
thought, isn't a small world? My dad loves the show. I work
32:45
on Sunday sometimes in mass Control, and we were airing the show on Sundays,
32:47
and that was my first real glimpse into the world of Michael Harrison because
32:52
you were opening the show every week and you worked with her very closely.
32:55
Yeah, I was partners with Carol, with the late Carol Marx. She
32:59
was a philanthropist and a woman dedicated to fighting agism. And she came up
33:07
with the idea for a radio show and came to me with it, and
33:10
she she wasn't really a professional broadcaster, she was a professional human being,
33:17
and we designed a show around her. I never considered it to be my
33:22
show, but I sort of served as the announcer on the show to give
33:30
it the glue and the connectiveness it needed to sound like a good show and
33:35
then we were able to put her into the show so that she could be
33:38
herself and not have to start learning, you know, in her seventies and
33:42
eighties, how to be a radio performer. And I think I think it
33:45
worked out pretty well. It was. It was a good show at Ranford
33:49
over twenty years, and I'm very proud of it. Looking back, I
33:55
don't know all my dad's favorite shows, so you know, he just passed.
34:00
He passed on in April, but his definitely definitely passed down to to
34:07
yours truly, Michael, we have some big news, and I'm sure other
34:10
eLEGS have reached out to you, but I figured not only are we friends,
34:13
were colleagues. I follow the Talkers magazine daily list and this press release
34:17
popped up. What press release am I talking about? Well? Michael Harrison
34:22
is appointed the Executive Advisor to UNESCO for the UN's celebration of World Radio Day
34:30
twenty twenty four. Congratulations, Michael, thank you. I'm very proud of
34:34
it. Every year now since I think twenty thirteen, twenty twelve, it's
34:40
been about ten years, eleven years. The United Nations under the auspices of
34:45
UNESCO, which is its Arts and Cultural branch they have. It's called International
34:52
Days, and they say February thirteen, which was picked for reasons indigenous to
34:58
un Radio. They have their own radio station. They started it on the
35:01
thirteenth of February many years ago, so they chose February thirteen, sort of
35:06
that of a hat as being International Radio Day to celebrate the history, the
35:10
presence in the future of radio. And what a great what a great place
35:15
for me to be. I'm thrilled to be able to celebrate the beginning of
35:22
radio's second century, because that's really the theme this year is one hundred years
35:27
of service and education, entertainment and information on a worldwide level. And radio
35:36
is different in different parts of the world. In some places it's the only
35:39
medium they have. It's a lifeline. And you know how I feel about
35:45
American radio. So yeah, between now in February thirteenth, I'm going to
35:51
be producing World Radio Day Minutes, where stations will be playing these one minute
35:57
drop ins talking about different aspects of radio. I'll be creating some special podcasts
36:02
and programs that will be on the UNESCO website for radio stations to use royalty
36:08
free, and I'll be talking to leaders of the radio industries in plural around
36:16
the world, bringing them together and creating networking opportunities that right now may not
36:22
exist. And you know, I'll put I'll put my brand on whatever it
36:28
is that comes up as I learned my way through this over the next few
36:32
months, because there's so much that I have to learn as well as share,
36:39
because radio is not the same all over the world. So for me,
36:44
it's an opportunity to give back and it's also an opportunity to learn,
36:50
give and take. So I'm excited about it, and I'm very grateful that
36:52
you think it's important. Thank you. I just think your lover radio is
36:57
so awesome, and I I feel the energy every time we talk about how
37:01
you want everybody in this industry to grow. I feel that every time we
37:05
talk, and I thought, this is a perfect appointment for the un to
37:08
make. So congratulations on that, Michael. But I gotta say, you're
37:13
not gonna while you're producing these minutes, you're also going to produce the daily
37:16
newsletter and then maybe just more articles of the Talkers magazine. I mean,
37:21
you're gonna be doing a lot to the next few months of Yeah, it's
37:23
a very big undertaking and It's not like I have that much time anyway.
37:29
So once again, my staff, our staff at Talkers is going to have
37:34
to step up to the plate, and every and everybody will stretch and grow.
37:38
But of course now I keep pretty active for an old guy. Well,
37:45
now I'm gonna ask you, is this is the final big project for
37:50
you? Right? You'll keep going even after this world Day is done.
37:52
I mean, I know, I don't say this as being your big final
37:53
project, right, I mean you'll be around for a while. Now.
37:57
I'll keep going for as long as I'm able to. I'm not one of
38:00
these people who takes for granted the future. I take every day as it
38:06
comes. I'm a futurist, but it doesn't mean that I expect to necessarily
38:08
be there. So as long as I'm able to function and my thinking is
38:15
good and I have enough energy and I could play a role, I will.
38:20
I will do my best to be active. When the day comes that
38:24
I feel enough is enough and I'm not coming up with anything new, and
38:31
the bulk of my energies are to survive as opposed to thrive and make a
38:37
contribution, and I'll stop. I'll stop immediately. So you know, people
38:44
would say, so I'm gonna do this forever, and that's that's that's kind
38:46
of egotistical, it's kind of narcissistic. I think there's a time when you
38:51
should throw in your hat. I like to go out as a winner.
38:55
I think there's nothing sadder than an old athlete going for one more season,
39:00
or a boxer going for one more you know fight. I think I don't
39:06
know when to stop, and I'll know, but right now, you know,
39:12
I rise to whatever opportunity comes my way. As well as the job
39:17
that has yet to be done. Radio faces some very existential challenges, and
39:23
if I could be involved in keeping the medium alive, then I will do
39:30
that. But again go back to what I said earlier. When you re
39:35
listen to this, the only reason radio will deserve to be kept alive is
39:39
if radio keeps itself pertinent. If radio stops being pertinent, then I'm not
39:45
going to waste my time trying to keep it alive. It's not out of
39:49
nostalgia. I actually believe that audio medium and a mass level that could be
39:54
brought to people easily without too much complication and without too much expense, is
40:00
a vital component of human communications and we need to communicate now more than ever.
40:07
Oh I wouldn't. I'm glad you mentioned that because I got a couple
40:10
more questions and before I left, before we complete this. By the way,
40:15
the only part why I would love to have you on down the road
40:17
as we get into this more. But the pandemic. We obviously didn't have
40:22
a convention in twenty twenty. But how did talkers bounce back? And would
40:27
you say I never felt radio had to bounce back because they were always on
40:30
the air no matter where they were during the pandemic. But I know that
40:35
the convention was not there, but you had you bounce back with talkers.
40:38
Talk about that whole adaptation. We never had to bounce back because we never
40:44
bounced away. Exactly. We're a lot more than the convention. If anything,
40:49
it gave us a little breather to retool the convention. The convention is
40:52
exhausting. The convention costs us every ounce of energy and that we have.
41:00
We don't make a lot of money on the convention. Uh, it's it's
41:04
wonderful for public relations, but uh, it's not like we're in the convention
41:12
business. And oh my god, we we didn't have a convention. It
41:14
wasn't like like our store was shut down. I thought the pandemic was actually
41:21
good for radio. And although there are devastating effects of the pandemic upon a
41:28
lot of business people and upon culture in a certain level, it also pushed
41:32
us ahead technologically by about a decade in one year. Uh. And you
41:37
know the whole zoom culture and and and uh you know tell uh communications,
41:45
you know, having meetings and working from home and all of that stuff I
41:51
find fascinating. So fortunately the pandemic didn't hurt talkers at all. Uh.
41:58
And I don't think it hurt radio at all. I think the problems facing
42:00
radio would have been there just as well, if not even more so,
42:05
had there not been a pandemic. Michael, right, I noticed, I
42:09
noticed how quickly you can judge, you can spot talent, because you had
42:15
Arthur Idalla on your podcast three months after he was on the AAR And I
42:20
said, man, Michael got him quick. You must see a lot of
42:22
potential in Arthur right away. That's that was out. And you had a
42:25
quick eye for for radio talent right there when you got him on the show
42:29
three months in. Yeah. Well, first of all, he's a defense
42:31
attorney and defense. A world class defense attorney has to be a great talk
42:37
show host. I mean they are a special breed of talker. And Arthur
42:45
is a very bright guy, is colorful guy, and he's a natural for
42:50
radio. And and I'm interested in law. You know, many many talk
42:53
show hosts have law degrees. And I'm a big fan of trial shows and
42:59
law shows, cop shows. I watched Law and Order, I watched the
43:01
I've seen almost every Law and Order and so I'm in some ways, you
43:07
know, enamored by the idea of a big time attorney of being a talk
43:10
show host. It's a natural fit. A knowledge of the Constitution and knowledge
43:15
of the law, and knowledge of how police work, knowledge of how district
43:20
attorneys work. I mean, think about in your hometown of New York and
43:23
and you know the answer where Arthur performs in your work with him and your
43:30
work with John Katsimatidis. H Having a knowledge of the law, particularly a
43:37
defense attorney, but maybe even a prosecutor too, is such a part of
43:42
the general issues that we talk about. So now that was that was Arthur
43:46
was was obvious to me. I have to mention that he was brought to
43:52
my attention by one of the great broadcasters in our business, Jerry Crowley,
44:00
who is the general manager of The Answer in New York and used to be
44:06
at w R and is a highly regarded figure in the business. He tipped
44:12
me off to Arthur Idalla and I listened and I said, oh, wow,
44:16
I want a champion this guy. I like him, I like what
44:19
he does, and put him on the podcast and the rest is history.
44:22
What do you think. I think that Jerry has been a really great do
44:28
you have to work with the last ten years? I love art working with
44:31
Arthur every time I get a chance to, And you know, I love
44:36
that they acknowledge the guys behind the scene. Them and he and Joe Piscopo
44:39
do that really well, as do you. I remember when we were on
44:42
the board on that Saturday show on Real Estate and you mentioned the work behind
44:46
the board, and that's so important for the guys behind the scenes to get
44:50
that acknowledgement, you know, and that you know, that was a challenge
44:53
for me filling in for Dottie Herman, who does a great real estate show.
45:00
I'm not a real estate expert. I don't know. I hope I
45:04
didn't make a fool of myself. But I think I did about four shows
45:07
for Dottie, who's one of the leading real estate experts on the planet,
45:13
and I tried to hold my own. It was very challenging and it was
45:16
a lot of fun, and you were, of course a great producer and
45:21
helped me through it. But you know, sometimes it's fun to tackle topics
45:27
that you're not an expert in and then you you ask experts questions or you
45:30
bring an intelligent layman's perspective to the subject. And that's what I tried to
45:36
do. I mean, I'm I'm not stupid about real estate. I bought
45:37
and sold a number of properties in my time, but that was very challenging
45:43
and I had a lot of fun doing it right. And you know,
45:45
Dottie's a very h I would say, extender coach. She's she's at all
45:50
over the place and that works on radio as well, and you know she
45:52
loves real estate and talking about it. Michael, one last thing, how
45:57
do you cultivate all your news? You get tip sen from people by email,
46:00
You scour all these news items that you put in a specifically to radio
46:06
in every talker's newsletter. What a great question that's a great question. A
46:15
lot of people think we have reporters everywhere. And you know, somebody once
46:21
came up to me and said, why do you hate me? And I
46:23
said, hate you? I don't even know who you are. How come
46:27
you've never ever written about us or put us to the heavy hundred because I
46:32
don't know who you are? Who are you? And I'm blah blah blah.
46:38
And here's what I do. I go, oh, okay, thanks
46:40
for bringing me to your attention, bringing you to my attention. And that
46:45
person did go on to actually be in the heavy hundred. What I'm saying
46:51
is a lot of people think that, you know, we have reporters everywhere.
46:53
We do not. When you have a reputation within any given field as
47:01
a trade publication, news makes its way to you instantaneously. If somebody dies,
47:09
a big time person, a format change, anything that happens. I've
47:15
been doing this for so many years and Talkers is so dominant as a vehicle
47:22
for news and information that it comes right to you like a magnet. It
47:28
finds its way to us instantaneously. Beyond that, yeah, we do some
47:32
digging, we do some research, we do some investigation, we do try
47:36
to cover stories. We are interested in the local news coverage of local radio,
47:43
and sometimes we run a story about a story. But for the most
47:46
part, everything that happens in this business comes to us instantly because of our
47:52
reputation. And that's the main value of having a trade publication that has legs
48:00
and has history and has relationships and connections. Well, and now at the
48:07
one leg up with Alex Gare podcast network is is connected to you and I'm
48:10
so thankful for that. Have you on the show today? And by the
48:15
way, can we're sort of the radio insiders everybody want to call it the
48:19
people in the industry, But can those who are outside the industry subscribe to
48:22
the newsletter as well? I saw that option on Talker's website. Absolutely.
48:29
Yeah, Just go to talkers dot com and then scroll down for the newsletter
48:31
and you get the newsletter. It's free, there's no charge for Talkers to
48:36
anybody. Anybody could could read Talkers. Where we get a little bit exclusionary
48:43
is with the convention. We we only allow people in the convention who are
48:50
in the industry, if you and that's only because of the nature of the
48:52
convention. Nothing against outsiders, but people in the industry are not going to
48:59
openly talk about out the industry and some of the issues we have in the
49:04
industry if consumers or listeners are too many outsiders are there, and we also
49:10
are a political Our conventions are places where people who are on the left and
49:16
people are on the right, and people who are neither on the left or
49:20
the right, and whatever it may be, get along under the common umbrella
49:24
of being broadcasters, as opposed to if you start bringing in outsiders, it
49:30
could become politically charged. People have agenda, people are trying to sell things,
49:36
and oh, we got a ten thousand people if we did a talk
49:38
festival, But I frankly don't want to do that. So we're exclusionary when
49:45
it comes to the convention, but we are totally open to the world when
49:50
it comes to our product. And anybody listening to this that wants to know
49:54
more just go to talkers dot com and it's a free passed into the universe
50:00
of that thing we call talkers. And no, by the way, I
50:05
know what you mean, because sometimes when you invite the outside consumer. We
50:07
love our listeners, right, Michael, We love the listeners, but they
50:10
could too, could be quite talkers at these had these things, So I
50:14
get where you're going with that. Also, Well, yeah, but it's
50:17
it's two different it's two different purposes. And as I said, I mean,
50:22
I'm sure that there's there's there are places where people can draw thousands of
50:28
people who listen to them and put on debates and have you know. All
50:31
that kind of stuff is fun. But the talker's convention is broadcasters with broadcasters
50:36
talking about issues involving broadcasting. And when I say broadcasting, I mean AMFM,
50:42
podcasting, statellite, cable news, talk television, all of those cousins
50:50
of talk radio that exist in this evolving universe of technology. You're doing a
50:55
service by preserving radio and the legacy of radio for people after, you know,
51:01
generations afterward, you know. And I think that's so important, well
51:06
about preserving legacy history too, and I think you're doing that through talkers,
51:10
and even through this podcast right now, you're well, not even even through
51:14
this podcast. Definitely through this podcast, definitely through this podcast. When I
51:17
first started out in radio, people would erase shows if they happened to him
51:22
in tape because the tape was more valuable than the radio show. It was
51:24
considered an instantaneous medium. They used to do that in TV. They were
51:29
Johnny Carson shows and Tonight Shows and Dick Clark's American Bandstand Shows and all that
51:35
that are gone forever, not one copy of them because they erased them because
51:39
the tape was more valuable than what do we need this for? It It
51:44
was live, it happened, it's gone. But that's not the case anymore.
51:47
In the digital era. Every platform is important. You and I on
51:52
your podcast can destroy our lives forever by anything that we say right now,
51:57
Or we could make extraordinary news. If we had some information that nobody else
52:00
had and we broke it right here and now, the whole world would know
52:04
about it within a half hour, maybe even within ten minutes. So there
52:07
are no unimportant platforms anymore. And everything is a document. So I'll tell
52:13
you, Alex, when I'm doing a show like this with you, I'm
52:15
talking to you and I'm talking to the listeners, but I already know i'm
52:20
talking to the future. I'm talking to twenty years from now, one hundred
52:25
years from now, maybe even a thousand years from now. Because of the
52:30
kind of technology we have today and our attitude toward preserving data that didn't exist
52:37
thirty years ago, and so this show that you're doing is every bit as
52:45
important, or at least potentially important as any other show in the world.
52:52
Well that almost made me choke up. Thank you, Michael, because I
52:54
just I love talking about all of this. I love this idea of keeping
53:00
things going, keeping radio going. And that's why I say even on my
53:02
pie. You know, I know I say even, but because not on
53:05
the air, I don't know how much of an impact. But I just
53:07
can say, hey, keep listening to radio. That's why I say sometimes
53:10
to end the show, because I love working in the medium as well.
53:14
So there's a twofold here that I tried intertwined and you're helping me do that
53:19
today. So thank you so much, Michael, my pleasure, thanks for
53:22
having me on. That was Michael Harrison of Talkers Magazine. And any last
53:29
message, since yes, this will be in the in the in the world
53:35
of the Alex Gare Podcast Network and I guess national global. What I'm going
53:38
to say is this show has heard a lot. What do you want to
53:40
say to our listeners before we sign out today? Any last message? Clean
53:45
up your own backyard, be good to the people around you don't necessarily try
53:51
to change the world from the outside. Change it from the inside, one
53:54
person at a time. Be good to your family, Be good to the
53:57
people that work for you or for whom you were, your co workers,
54:00
your friends. Be kind. Don't look for reasons to hate, look for
54:05
reasons to love. Try to communicate, try to try to be a bridge,
54:10
try to reach out and do what is good for humanity. But clean
54:19
up your own backyard, keep your nose clean. Don't worry about other people.
54:22
Worry about how you act and when we can only change society for the
54:27
better. On that cellular level, teach your children, protect them and be
54:34
a good person. Try to be good. And that's that's my message.
54:40
And love radio. I love all of that. Michael, Thank you so
54:45
much for doing this today, and let's have you back as as we ramp
54:47
up toward World Radio Day in twenty twenty four. I'd love to have you
54:51
back for an update, if you don't mind, I'd love to be back.
54:53
And I like talking to you. I think you're a great person,
54:58
and I I think that you are an important part of their broadcasting industry,
55:05
and I encourage you to follow your dreams. Alex just keep doing it,
55:08
follow your dreams. Thank you, Michael. And you're doing you're helping me
55:13
do that. So that's been Michael Harrison of Talkers Magazine on the Alex Garrett
55:17
podcast Network. We'll talk to s