Latest / To The Moon With The Luna's Podcast / Matthew Kratter: “Bitcoin Has Been Captured”

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Matthew Kratter: “Bitcoin Has Been Captured” · To The Moon With The Luna's Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: You talked about Bitcoin being captured.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: So when you say Bitcoin is being captured, you're essentially saying it's pretty much dead.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: Is that a fair statement?
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_03: I would say it's dead man walking.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: Either way, dead or dead man walking.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_03: So it's not dead yet because that's worth$70 some thousand dollars and you're dead.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: So then this is a bold statement though, right?
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of people that love Bitcoin, and we've always been in Bitcoin for a while.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: We love the principles, the core principles, everything that you I love all that myself.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: So saying that it's dead or dead man walking, then is it fair to say that you then why even have Bitcoin then for you?
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: So I haven't moved any to an exchange to sell it yet because these replay attacks are actually kind of difficult to think through.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: The only way I have to send my Bitcoin either to a person to sell it to them or to an exchange.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna move my Bitcoin.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'll start moving it after September 1st.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so you're basically, it's fair to say that you're gonna be selling all your Bitcoin then.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh all right, guys.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, welcome back to To the Moon with the Luna.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Today we're joined by some awesome Bitcoiners.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: First, we have Gus uh who runs his family cleaning business and is fully dedicated to Bitcoin and helping spread the message.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we also have a special guest, Mac from Bitcoin University.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: Matthew has spent years educating people on YouTube and Bitcoin and why Bitcoin matters.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we'll uh start off with you first, Matt.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: Just if you can give us an introduction on uh what Bib Tim actually was.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: If you're a Bitcoiner, you've seen it on X Twitter and so many people have gone back and forth.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: Good stuff, bad stuff.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm all about verifying, uh finding what it is and doing your own research.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm really excited just to kind of hear your input on this because your name keeps coming up everywhere with this, Matt.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: So uh if you don't mind sharing a little bit about what it was and a little bit about yourself as well.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_03: Uh anyway, first of all, it's it's great to be here with you, Anthony and Gus.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: And um, so my name is Matthew Crater.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_03: I run a YouTube channel called Matthew Crater's Bitcoin University, and I've been covering Bitcoin on it since really 2019 and um just made a made almost daily videos since then.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: And so BIP 110 was this temporary soft fork that tried to fix a bunch of problems that Bitcoin Core had really been causing since 2023 with their negligence.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: They there was a bug that shipped with the previous soft fork upgrade, which was called Taproot, and there was a bug that allowed people to easily and cheaply upload lots of files to Bitcoin, uh like JPEGs and and even MP MP3s and MP4s.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: And the problem with this is it it dilutes uh Bitcoin as money.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: It makes it more difficult to run in Node.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so we went through this sort of escalation where we saw we saw this uh this was what's called the inscriptions exploit.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: It was a bug that shipped with Taproot, and uh a number of us were urging Bitcoin Core to fix it.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_03: This was what was called sort of the the Fix the Filters campaign, and I came in, I came into it really kind of at the tail end of that.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: But there were already people like Luke Dasher and Mechanic and that whole crew who were dealing with that.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: And so what what started off appearing is just a simple case of negligence that Bitcoin Core said, you know, we we don't really want to jump in um and fix this thing.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's sort of contentious.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: And uh so many of us were just watching the situation, but it really came to a head in, I believe it was May, May of uh last year of 2025, when they decided to open up a filter.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_03: And uh filters refer to things that that uh govern how nodes relay transactions to each other.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: And this filter they blew open, many of your listeners, I'm sure, have heard of it because it's been such a huge issue over the last year.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's it was called the Oper Turn.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: And this was the place in Bitcoin since 2013 that the community and Bitcoin Core had decided this was sort of the designated spot.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like if you have something that's not money, not monetary data, you can just uh drop it, drop it in this place.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_03: And it's it was just a very small, it was a very small data field in transaction outputs.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's it started off at 40 bytes, and then the community raised it to 80 bytes.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_03: And to put that in perspective, an 80-byte, 80 bytes is basically like a, I think it's approximately like a simple emoji.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_03: So there's there's not much you could put in there.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_03: This was a place in Bitcoin transactions that you can think of it as like the memo on your check where you just put a little message or you put a hash of something to prove a hash is just a fingerprint, a sort of a digital fingerprint.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_03: You could put a hash there to prove that a certain document existed at a certain point in time.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_03: But what happened then when what many of us realized in May of 2025 is that Bitcoin Core indeed had gone rogue, that they were no longer interested in fixing bugs like the inscriptions exploit, and now they were actually pushing ahead and blowing open a whole new data field.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_03: And they basically opened it up from 80 bytes to 100,000 bytes.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_03: 100,000 bytes is a lot.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: You could put a very nice JPEG there or even a video.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_03: And um and so at that point, we many of us realized that we had a very, very serious problem on our hands because this was the reference implementation, this is the node software that everyone runs in Bitcoin.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_03: And if they were going to be not just not fixing bugs, but causing new problems, and then it was very sketchy the whole, the whole context for this because some of the Bitcoin core devs were talking with various scammy Bitcoin layer two affinity scam startups.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: And uh one of them was basically saying, well, we should do this for this, for this startup.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: So there was some kind of interference from what you might call the crypto, the crypto industry, because these um these layer two protocols, they're not like lightning or anything.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_03: They're they're much more scammy and they involve their own tokens, et cetera.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: And so we we fought this, we fought this battle for most of last year.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: We fought it on Twitter, we fought it in the GitHub comment section, we fought it on YouTube, and then many of us began to migrate from running Bitcoin Core as our node software.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of the network migrated to Bitcoin NOTs in protest and started running stricter filters to try to keep this stuff out of the chain.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_03: Because the problem, I guess, I guess what I'd like people to take away from today is that anything that's bad for Bitcoin node runners is bad for Bitcoin.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's a pretty good principle that when you when you don't understand the technicals of something and you don't really know who to trust on whatever side, this is sort of a um heuristic that anyone can use to decide whether something is good.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: And the reason we want to be able to we want it to be easy to run a node and especially to spin up a new node, because once you have your node running, it usually runs pretty well.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_03: But spinning up a new node, depending on your internet speed and your hardware, can take anywhere from 12 hours if you're, you know, you live in a modern, wealthy country and you've got a really good broadband, et cetera.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but if you're a little more off the beaten path, it could take weeks and weeks to spin up a new Bitcoin node.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: And we all know in this low uh low attention economy, if you're downloading an app on your phone and it it starts to fail and freeze after 45 seconds, you're you're probably out of there.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: You're not even going to bother.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_03: You'll go to the competitor or whatever.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so the idea that to install the Bitcoin app, like the app that you need to interact with the Bitcoin network, that that would take two or three weeks, you can just imagine how many people that leaves behind.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_03: As well as people who are very dedicated, but they live, they live somewhere where somewhere where just a dial-up modem or a very remote location, or they or they don't, you know, they make$2 a day like people still do in large parts of the world.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: And so they don't have$1,000 for a new Start9 server, which is really the only way to run a Bitcoin node now.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_03: And so we we moved from Bitcoin Core to Bitcoin NOTs as a way of fighting against this.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_03: And then when we saw that Bitcoin Core was going to really ignore the wishes of a large, a large uh section of the a large uh cross section of Bitcoiners.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_03: And whereas before in February of 2023, we were we were talking about the inscriptions exploit, they refused to fix that one because they said it was too contentious.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_03: But what happened in May and June of 2025 is even though this change to Operaturn, allowing people to basically convert Bitcoin into a file storage system, this was incredibly contentious, as anyone who was on Twitter at the time or GitHub saw.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: And yet for some reason, this time they had no problem pushing through something that was even more contentious than the previous inscriptions exploit fix.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_03: They basically just pushed it through.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_03: And um and then so then we knew something was really wrong.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: We switched to Bitcoin NOTs, and then they went ahead and released this their new software, which was Bitcoin Core version 30.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_03: This is the one that allows nodes to relay very large op returns, up to 100,000 bytes.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: And there are many, there are many risks to you can imagine uh the metaphor the mechanic always uses is imagine what happens if you have a personal server and you remove any firewall and you just open it up to the internet and you let random people from the internet post stuff.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: You can imagine what's going to be on that server, all the all the worst stuff, all the most offensive stuff across many, many different cultures, and including um very bad, very bad images, illegal images, immoral images, even stuff like child sexual abuse material, like just the most horrendous stuff you can imagine.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: And many of us came to Bitcoin.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_03: We just wanted to use it as money.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: There's nothing wrong with, I believe, you know, there should be some sort of uh freedom to s to exchange files, obviously not the really nasty types, but you know, you should be able to exchange forbidden books, for example, online, forbidden PDFs, et cetera.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um But this this was not the battle that that most Bitcoiners wanted.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_03: We just wanted to use Bitcoin as money, and we didn't want to get in the file delivery business as part of that.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you're downloading and uploading child sexual abuse material, not only is that illegal, but even if it were legal, there's no sane human being who would want that stuff on their on their computer or would want to participate in that sort of filthy ecosystem.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: So this was the problem.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Bitcoin Core continued to ignore node runners.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: And at that point, it became impossible to fight it using filters simply because so much of the network, there was so much, so many people upgraded to Bitcoin Core version 30, so they were just relaying these files around.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_03: And so that was that's when the decision was made to actually do a soft fork and to try to stop this stuff at the consensus level.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_03: So the relay level is what nodes can send to each other.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: Consensus level is really what's allowed in mind blocks.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: Matt, real quick, just for our listeners out there, so when you're talking about these uh Bitcoin core developers, right?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: And they're developing and they're adding more space, allowing these things to come in here, uh, um, uploading stuff like a JPEG where you can put more stuff in there.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Who are these developers?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like, is there like 30, 10?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like who are these core developers that can that have a say in the Bitcoin network like this?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like who are these people?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: Is there a good question?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Is there a small group?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what's going on here?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: So it's it's technically a fairly large group because anyone can contribute to open source software development.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so technically I think there are hundreds of Bitcoin core devs.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_03: Many of them have only contributed maybe a few lines of code or helped to find bugs, done stuff like that.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_03: But there's a core group that really controls it or that would appear to control it.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_03: And these are what are called the the Bitcoin core maintainers.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_03: These are the ones who have actual have the keys that will allow them to merge new code into into the client that then people will download and use.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I believe they're now uh there are five or six of them.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: I think there there might be six of them.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: And these these tend to be um, they're a fairly tight click of people.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_03: So while there's maybe 200 200 Bitcoin Core devs, there's a much smaller group that contributes regularly and that is um that are very friendly with each other.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: They tend to be fairly young people in their in their uh 20s, obvious, obviously devs, um because of some changes to how the funding has worked for Bitcoin devs over the past few years.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: There's just been a couple companies that are providing it, a couple nonprofits.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: And so you've had a very um ironically, because they were they were aiming for diversity, but it's been a fairly homogeneous group of people, fairly, fairly young people in their 20s and 30s, living in uh in big, fairly liberal cities, living in cities like San Francisco and New York and London.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things many of us observed is that some of their political ideas were making it into the way that they talked about open source software.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so they there there was a movement with among many of them, they were reading a certain book, which basically said that anyone who uses open source software is like an extractor or extractive, and they're they're just taking stuff that's not there.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_03: So they began to have their own sort of echo chamber.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: So that it's a fairly small, small group of people, and they they they've managed to maintain control.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_03: And what people always say is, well, you if you don't like their software, you don't have to run it.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: But but basically the way it works is all major Bitcoin companies in the world, almost all of them, um, certainly 90-95% of them run Bitcoin Core software, and they run it with all the defaults that it ships with.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_03: And so this has implications for the network because most people, when you download software, you just use it as it is.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: You don't really fiddle with the defaults unless you're a power user.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: And so what happened is the the sort of the the mempool and the re and the um relay policy defaults became became effectively consensus because they determined what was ending up in Bitcoin blocks.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so to bring this full circle, that's why many of us decided to um to support BIP 110, which was a temporary soft fork that sought to stop a lot of this damage in real time and basically buy us 12 months to try to come up with a better solution.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_03: And this this software soft fork is basically just a it's um it's it's how Bitcoin changes its rules.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: You can either do a soft fork or a hard fork.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_03: A soft fork is very t is very um backwards compatible.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's backwards compatible, yeah.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: So it's it's the preferable way to do it.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_03: And we also made the soft fork temporary in case there are any problems with it.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: But this was a very um this was really just basic janitorial maintenance work, the soft fork.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_03: It did not introduce any new functionality, any new bills and whistles.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_03: It basically tried to stop file storage using two main methods, the inscriptions exploit, which Bitcoin Core failed to fix, as well as Operaturn, which Bitcoin Core blew open and caused all the problems with.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_03: And then there were a couple other data fields that were going to be temporarily limited.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_03: But there was no there was no monetary censorship, there was no free speech censorship, because basically we're talking about monetary transactions.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_03: These were just these were just consensus rules that would say, oh, look, you're using you're using more than you're using eighty eighty-five bytes in an operant, so this transaction cannot end up in a block.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_03: We don't care what you put in there.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: You can put political messages, you can put little images, you just have to limit it to 83 bytes.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Guys, whether or not you agree with Matthew Crater, um, stop.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: This is the kind of information that you get with him.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: This is why I've been following him for five years.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: You pause the video real quick, and I'll go subscribe to his his YouTube channel, Bitcoin University.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: I was so happy when you changed the name.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: I was one of the ones telling you, please change to Bitcoin University because everything is about Bitcoin and the knowledge is amazing, Matt.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I could listen to it for fire 45 hours, you know.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Eventually I need to sleep.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: But I was wondering, Matt, if um unfortunately it's a concerning thing that comes up when I'm orange-billing people.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um how much, if any, has uh Blockstream had influence on the core developers initially?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm talking about, of course, 2013, 2014, and Kiera Investments LLC.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, of course, that was Jeffrey Epstein's one of his many LLCs that he used to invest in, I believe Blockstream, I think.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: And also a lot of Blockstream developers were also Bitcoin developers.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm wondering what's the connection there.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I apologize to bring this up.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's a it's a very difficult subject to talk about.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: People flip out, and please keep it keep it respectful in the comments, guys.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, it's a it's a very good question.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_03: And um I'm glad you asked it because this is one of the things we're dealing with is is the sort of path we've been on bears superficial a superficial resemblance or sort of echoes of the block size wars.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's why, for example, people like Mechanic and Luke and I are being called the next Roger Vare or something, because people they want easy metaphors and easy historical parallels to use.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm not familiar with the Epstein LLC that you you mentioned.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not saying it doesn't exist, um, but uh the main way Epstein invested in um so he gave some money to a project at MIT, um, and I'm I'm sort of bl blanking on it, but there's a guy named Joey Eto who was running that.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_03: And this money was used to provide some of the early funding for some Bitcoin core devs.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: Now, the uh the big blockers, the B cashers, who were basically the ones who lost in the last Civil War, these are the guys like Roger Vare.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: And then there's some splits from Bcash like BSV, which had a scammer, Craig Wright, who was who was at the helm of it.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: So these are these are definitely not groups or people you want to be compared compared with, but their basic hypothesis or their theory, and you can read Roger Vare's book, Hijacking Bitcoin.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um I've only I've only read parts of it, but basically he alleges Blockstream hijacked Bitcoin and was fighting for small blocks in order to force people to use layer two solutions that were developed by Blockstream, like the Liquid Network, which even today hasn't seen that much real adoption, and the Lightning Network, which wasn't really hadn't really been developed.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_03: It was more just a white paper at that point.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_03: So I would say that I don't I don't there there the Epstein the Epstein connections are interesting and they're always they're always worrisome.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: And as we found after that last email dump um from the Epstein stuff at the beginning of this year, he he just touched everything.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_03: He touched uh big tech, he touched um so many different areas because his job was to compromise people and to invest.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: The reason you invest in lots of things is then you have inside access and you have inside.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm not convinced that that Epstein, I think he was not a very smart guy, and he was not interested in in Bitcoin uh technical.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like he was he wasn't he wasn't like, you know, we gotta blow up an opera turn, we gotta do this or that.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell He touched everything.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, he literally invested billions uh being funded by who knows, but he invested just hundreds or tens of millions everywhere in every way.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: He touched, like you said, hospitals, you know.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Just because he funded core developers once doesn't mean that he was compromised.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: These are just questions that I get.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I was wondering, too, about um if you could maybe compare and I'm sorry, by the way, I did compare you and Justin, whom I love, and uh to Roger Verr.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's okay.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to apologize for anything.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I feel like I have to because I I feel like I might have um not said it right.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: That comparison wasn't appropriate.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: I was just trying to get core to wake up to please stop creating antagonist, you know, just people who might get off the network, but like my fear is happening.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I had a panic attack the other day when I heard that uh there was gonna be a hard fork.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I was wondering if you could talk about that a little bit, uh Blake to be hard fork that's potentially gonna happen.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: How's that that's that might be beneficial?
• 19:55
  unknown: Aaron Ross Powell Yeah.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_03: So basically we we talked a little in uh uh in this conversation so far, we talked about the mistakes that Bitcoin Core made and how our side sort of escalated things in an effort to try to um to try to fix things in the in the way that would cause the least damage.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_03: So we at first tried the social level and arguing online, then we started running different node software, and then we did this this soft fork, which which basically failed about a week ago or a couple weeks, a week and a half ago on August 10th.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: And uh this was when the soft fork required that the large mining pools begin to signal acceptance of of the soft fork.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_03: And what we saw when the time came is that the mining pools took the side of of people like Michael Saylor, what I call Big Bitcoin, who had been pushing really hard against BIP 110.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_03: They hadn't really, I think they they didn't think it was going to activate, and then they panicked in the last two weeks and just sort of came out of nowhere.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_03: And Saylor was posting all this AI, uh AI slop, 110 reasons not to support it.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: But the there was there was there was a very strong, uh, strong group that included Big Bitcoin, the Bitcoin treasury companies, and the the people who work there.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_03: And then Michael Saylor, obviously being probably the most recognizable and famous Bitcoin celebrity in the world at this point.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: Even non-Bitcoiners sort of know who he is.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: So on the anti-BIP 110 side was was Big Bitcoin, the large mining pools, Bitcoin Treasury companies, Bitcoin Core.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: And then Michael Saylor and BlackRock uh announced a couple, maybe a week before the soft fork mandatory signaling was going to begin, that they were funding new development for Bitcoin, um, for Bitcoin devs, uh,$15 million.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: So then it became it became quite apparent that that that whole side of things was sort of gearing up to to keep their control.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: And so what it what it looks like, at least what it looks like to me, and people like uh this is all public information.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: Jonathan Beer, for example, has tweeted about um He wrote a very interesting book about the the block size wars of twenty twenty fifteen to twenty seventeen.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: So he's been around for a while.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: And what what he revealed is w what a lot of us had worried was that there was some backdoor lobbying going on.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_03: So there are phone calls being made by Jonathan Beer and presumably other people.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_03: And you can imagine you get a phone call from Michael Saylor, Larry Fink, and BlackRock.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: You'd you'd probably pay attention to that.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: And they were um it would appear that they were sabotaging things behind the scenes.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: Because the current state of Bitcoin mining is there's there's only five, five or six large corporations, most of them Chinese, controlled by the CCP, one large one in the U.S.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_03: called Foundry, one slightly smaller one called Mara.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_03: They're obviously highly regulated by the U.S.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: government.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: And so the powers that be, the sailors of the world, applied pressure to these mining pools to thwart this soft fork, to thwart BIP 110 and say basically don't signal for it.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_03: Rather than doing the normal way you're supposed to fight a user-activated soft fork, which is basically a soft fork that's being driven by the nodes, the way you're supposed to fight one of these is out in the open by running a running software that would oppose it, what's called a user-rejected or user-resisted soft fork.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_03: But instead of doing that, they did a very fiat thing because I think Michael Saylor's become a very, or always was a very fiat person.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_03: They basically the way it works, it always works.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the big bankers make the phone calls, the governments get involved, the big corporations make decisions.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: This is where I come in and I ask, wouldn't he be sorry, man, wouldn't he be best to um stay stick to knots and kind of fight the beasts from within and kind of bring them down towards the people more instead of letting them go to the corporations and nation-state levels of control.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: We should maybe stay and kind of run knots and just keep going and keep pushing for it until we get like 50, 60 percent node adoptions, then there's no stopping it, you know?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_03: Well, the di the hard thing about getting to those high percentages, and first of all, I should I should point out that there is well, there is there's there's sort of a social benefit to to running a node and saying you're running a node and it it's sort of it's but it's not it's not strictly a democracy, like it's not a vote.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_03: But the problem was we continue to do that, and and yet the node percentage, the knots node percentage has stayed right around 19 or 20 percent.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: And for every for every pleb, for every Bitcoin pleb who spun up a new node, the other side would always spin up two or three nodes.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_03: So for example, right now we have we still have 19,000, 20,000 Bitcoin Core version 27 nodes that have been spun up.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_03: They're probably being run in the cloud or something.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_03: And this is a very outdated version of Bitcoin Core, so it's not just people who haven't upgraded.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: And the reason they did that was to keep our percentages down.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_03: So I would maintain you could never we could never get over 20 percent.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: It didn't matter.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_03: We had tens of thousands of plebs running nodes, and they kept they kept matching us by spinning up Bitcoin core nodes to make sure that percentage would always stay about about 80-20.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: So that's at sort of at the node software level.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: While it's while it's interesting, it's also the problem with nodes is you can always um do what's called a Sybil attack where both sides are gonna spin up fake nodes just so they look more powerful.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so then you have to do various social heuristics.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm pretty secure in my belief that the big the Bitcoin knots node runners were real.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: We could see your comments on on X and on YouTube and a lot of new a lot of new channels and on a lot of new content creators started, like Desert Dave, for example.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and then you Yeah, so many of them yourself, Gus.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: You've been doing them too.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um So that's sort of the node level.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: Then you you have the mining level or the hash rate level, and it's the miners who who end up deciding what goes into a block, these these large mining pools.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so many of us, many of us plebs were also in the last six months, we started renting hash rates, so borrowing compute from someone else's mining rig, pointing it to our own our own home servers and our own nodes, building our own blocks and actually mining Bitcoin from home.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I showed it on my channel.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: I was I was mining at five peta hash for uh for a while and actually even even higher than that at times.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: But the the thing is it's very uh we were still up against these very large corporations.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: So we got to many of us who were mining Bitcoin from home and using the ocean mining pool, which I'm sure a lot of your viewers have heard about, we got up to about three percent of the network.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: But it's it's very difficult even even with rent detachment.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't mind me saying, we were up to almost 20 percent under note count, and the miners are almost three percent.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: And the same thing happened during 20, when was the user activator soft fork or BIP 148?
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: I forgot exactly the EP.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: That was that was part of Segrid in 2017.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: 2017.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that's when the big block size war was happening, and BCHers, the big blockers, had most of the miners, the most powerful biggest miners, and yet the user activators fork end up ended up happening because of nodes, right?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: People you'd like you and me running nodes and I think that's the same.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well that's the question.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's that's that's um that's a that's a correct summary of what I've been saying for the past 12 months.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: And it's a good summary where I got it from was Bitcoin mechanic because he lived through that period and Luke Dasher, and Luke Dasher was one of the architects of BIP of BIP 148 and getting people to run it and figuring out how to do SegWit as a soft fork.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: But what we've since learned also from from Jonathan Beer's tweets is that the victory of nodes over the large Bitcoin corporations in 2017, that there's a very good chance now, and of course it's it's impossible to know for sure, but there's a very good chance that that was um that was an illusion.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: And what actually won the block size wars for the small blockers was Jonathan Beer and and Haddenbach and people like this lobbying lobbying the mining pools.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so that it sort of calls into question.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_03: There's a there's a very good chance that for the past nine years that the nodes haven't been in charge in the same way that they that we thought they were.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: And this is this is actually a very big Bitcoin holiday.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_03: August 1st, it's known as Bitcoin Independence Day.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: And this is when, in the telling of it, that BIP 148, which was just a ragtag bunch of node runners, 500,000 node runners running running this software to force the hand of the mining pool saying we're gonna throw out your blocks unless you come along with us that that somehow worked.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um but it would appear, at least according to Jonathan Beer's account and a few others, that uh it was actually their their lobbying behind behind the scenes.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe he was just trying to be like a peacock and you know put his feathers up and I don't know.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there's a lot of Yeah, that's something you always it's it's hard to know, but there there were um there this has been the question since the days of Satoshi that you know how who's in charge or or who has takes precedence over it's like a beautiful dance, right?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: In a way, the miners and the nodes and the people who use it and the companies.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like my my small cleaning business might be not much, you know, twelve employees, we have three hundred clients.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: But as we're good size.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's good size.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's not bad.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very grateful to God because it's me, my mom, and my wife, I could never do this by myself.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, eventually, as other companies come in and they see everybody doing it, like people just like you and me, they're like, hey, I want to spit up a note.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I want to buy Bitcoin.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you made how much?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you've been buying Bitcoin since when?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you explain to them that if they stay, they can extremely grow their net worth exponentially because of the explosive growths.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: And last thing on on my part.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, Anthony, I've been.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: Oh no, you're good.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: I I like this.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: I want to ask some questions to Matt that what he shared earlier was like it was actually kind of mind-blowing to me, but finish, please, please.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, before anyone start jumping at Luke's Luke's throat, remember that core is is doing all of this and it's something very ugly and deep.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: And in a way, they really are creating many Rogers ver version for how long now, you know?
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: But before people criticize Luke Dash Jr., briefly, he saved Bitcoin once, right?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: In 2013, he found a bug and he could have exploited at it, but instead he patched and fixed it.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: That that's how ethical of a guy he is.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he's a very he's a very straightforward guy.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_03: And um he's one of the few people in the world that he basically just always says the truth and always says what he's thinking.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_03: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he believes that if he if if he sins, he believes he's going to help.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why he doesn't lie in a way.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's why don't trust verify, but in a way it put a lot of weight to his words.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: So before we criticize Luke and Mechanic and Beckler and and you, you know, let's let's see where you come from, how long you've been here, and show some respect, you know.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that's it.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I appreciate that.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: And Luke is um Luke is is clearly the um the most brilliant living Bitcoin dev.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: He's he's a prodigy.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_03: He's like an Einstein of of Bitcoin code, and he's been maintaining Bitcoin not since call it 2010, 2011.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so he's a very unique individual um in that he's seen the whole history and he's developed his philosophy of Bitcoin over that period of time, and he's seen people come and go, and he's intimately related with the code base.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so he's got he's got a unique perspective.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um but you know, like many devs, he's got his quirks and his weird things.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, this is Bitcoin, so there are a lot of us are not super normal.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Muslims and Jews and Christians, it's everybody.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Bitcoin is unique.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a great bunch of people.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, man, it's a great bunch of people.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to go back to what you shared earlier.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you said there's like about five to six core developers that do Bitcoin Core 30, uh, that they run this, right?
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: Are they like Well, those are the yeah, those are the maintainers who can inject new code, can make changes to the code because they have the keys to the code base.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: So isn't that dangerous?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm just I'm thinking for like plebs, brand new Bitcoiners coming out.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: This is more on the back end, the technical side.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the fact that what we're talking about, five or six people, there's only five or six of them that can like enter, you know, new stuff, write new code or software program.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone can just sound hey, here's a billion dollars, right?
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: That just sounds so sketched to me.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and then to add on to that, you shared, okay, so now everyone's running these Bitcoin Core 30, a huge portion of people.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and these nonprofits or these Bitcoin corporations, they're all just running it as well.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then they see a soft fork, right?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: Then they see this thing come out.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like the most common sense thing to me would be like, hey, let's see what this is about.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why don't we just go and do our research and verify why all of a sudden is this BIP 10 or this soft fork even an issue?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, because the way I look at it, doing my little bit of homework before we hopped on here, I'm all I'm always thinking for the first very brand new beginner, someone entering the space, right?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then they see all this stuff on their on their XV, whatever it may be.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: At the end of the day, I'm always like, don't trust verify because what's the difference between Bitcoin 2022, Bitcoin 2023, Bitcoin 2024, 25, and now summer 2026, where there's this like battle going on between Bitcoiners.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: Where did it change?
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then how do we verify if this is right or wrong?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: And Corey's been doing nothing but antagonizing our systems.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: So if you could just add to this, like, isn't that dangerous?
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: Number one, five to six developers constantly doing this.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then all of these people that are running the Bitcoin Core 30, um, like aren't why wouldn't they do their research on like, hey, like, looks like there's something going on over here in the Bitcoin space where we need to like some software or something, let's do some research instead of just like running it Bitcoin Core 30.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't mind sharing that.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, that's a it's a bunch of good questions.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_03: So the the first thing I would say is that um projects, open source projects like this, where we don't, we don't have it's not like Apple or Google or something where we have a CEO who can coordinate our action.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: And so I would push back a little bit on the the um the part where you were saying how you know we kind of had good times and peaceful times and now we've got a civil war.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_03: I think the natural state of Bitcoin, because we don't have a CEO, because we don't have a legislature and we don't have a Supreme Court.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's basically it's more like a human body where you just have to have an immune system.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: If you don't have an immune system, you die very, very quickly.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: This is what's classically called toxic Bitcoin maximalism.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_03: And as I've said in some other interviews, people love the idea until they experience it.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_03: And then they're they're like, why are all these people being so mean to each other?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um and it's the the reason is because Bitcoin has to be able to defend itself from attacks.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: And it's sort of all of our responsibility.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: And the problem is there's just, you know, as Gus was saying, it's it's a good thing, but it's also, you know, just so many people from so many backgrounds all over the world, et cetera.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um but the the immune system, I I guess we did have kind of a relative period of peace after the conclusion of the block size wars and in 2017 and the triumph of the small blockers.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's almost like, you know, you have you have World War, you have World War II, and then the 1950s are like very quiet and very boring and very safe, and and um you have that relative period of peace, and then of course the 1960s go crazy again, et cetera.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's something that's similar that happened in Bitcoin, where we had relative peace from 2017, which was before my time.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_03: I came in in 2019, and then everything was sort of fine until 2023, with, you know, there's always minor skirmishes, and it's always a question too, when you're new to Bitcoin like I was, there's just so much to absorb.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_03: And so you'll tend to, it's a very deep rabbit hole.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: It takes a lot of time to get up to speed on everything that's happening.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_03: And meanwhile, if you're investing your own money, it can be very scary because it's not like you're not keeping it in a bank.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_03: You have to have your 12 words and figure out self-custody and you have to learn about economics, and it's it's a huge, it's a huge battle.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_03: So it's more like I certainly wouldn't expect any beginners, and I I didn't do it myself for my first call it four or five years.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_03: Didn't go quite as as deep down.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um but but Bitcoin defends itself through people who are incentivized to defend it because they have a lot of their life savings in it, and they don't want other people to F with their money.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_03: And they also don't want other people to force them to relay and download uh child pornography or anything else, or they don't want um uh they don't want it to become more too expensive to run a node because you have all this UTXO set bloat because there are too many JPEG transactions.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_03: So it ideally the way Bitcoin defends itself is just the plebs are paying attention and uh especially ones who are sort of at an intermediate or advanced level, they've been through a couple cycles.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_03: Because your first four years, you're just you're super excited because the price is pumping, and you're like, I've never invested like this before, I'm making so much money.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: And then you watch your net worth go down 80% or your position go down 80%, and then you're really depressed and you're questioning everything.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_03: So that's enough to handle in the first four years.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_03: But after that, you begin to sort of ride the waves, and um, it's not as big of a deal.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um and and and so the way your initial question is, isn't it dangerous to have just five or six people with right access to the code who can decide what's in there?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_03: Well, at least at a theoretical level, the way it works is no one can force you to run software that you don't want to run.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't like Bitcoin Core anymore.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_03: I don't run Bitcoin Core software.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um but the problem is if it's if it has 80% market share and it's what all the big businesses run, and all the default settings are wrong coming out of the box, then it can have a huge impact.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_03: Ideally, these Bitcoin core maintainers would be like they were in the old days, where they were more cypherpunk.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_03: They were people who came to Bitcoin just because they were devs and they thought it was a really cool project and they wanted to fiddle with it, they wanted to they wanted to build tools that they could use.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_03: And they also, you know, they they owned some Bitcoin from the early days.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_03: So then they watched themselves become multimillionaires, and in some cases, you know, sentimillionaires.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_03: And so then they became really interested in it because it's like, I've got a lot of money on this, I don't want to f it up.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not I'm not gonna sell it and put in Wells Fargo because then it's just gonna lose purchasing power.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_03: So I want to keep Bitcoin going.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, exactly.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: Just go back to the go back to fiat.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: So the Bitcoin Core had had these sort of cypherpunky people.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_03: And um and the nice thing about it is they came to Bitcoin not to get rich, but just because they're into like Freedom Tech and um, you know, they want to separate money and state, and they hated the they hated the bailouts, the bank bailouts, and the banker bailouts of 2008.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_03: But then there's been this transition as these nonprofits like Brink and Chaincode Labs arose.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_03: And what they're doing in many ways is very good work because it's nice to pay people to work on Bitcoin.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_03: If you're working really hard on Bitcoin, it's your full-time job.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think it's you you should be able to support your wife and kids, and that's not unreasonable.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_03: Though many of these people were making uh were making, yeah, I mean, they're making quite good money, you know,$300,000,$400,000 a year.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, living in expensive cities.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_03: And in San Francisco, I think the poverty level is like you make less, if your family makes less than$125K, you're literally like poverty level for the city.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_03: So you you have to do some sort of adjustments.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_03: But the the pro the type of people they started to recruit were much younger people, sort of people with left-wing economics, which is just doesn't work because Bitcoin is not it's not Keynesian, it's not it's not about confiscating money from other people and redistributing it.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_03: And so we had people like a person who's no longer with Bitcoin Core, but I covered a lot of my project was Gloria Zhao, who's sort of the public face of Bitcoin uh core.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_03: And she had a background, there was kind of a um kind of a crypto altcoin background.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_03: She had helped people with Ethereum, and she was a relatively new college grad.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so the the type of people I would say that that it's okay to have five or six maintainers if they're super cypherpunk and they have the values and they own Bitcoin and they run nodes, but someone like Gloria, it came out apparently that she didn't even own any Bitcoin.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so she's making changes to the protocol while other people like me have our whole our life savings apart from our house in it.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's there's there's that disconnect, like, wow, like you don't even there's there's no skin in the game.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: And yet we kind of got them to change because we have all of our skin in the game, and because we were, you know, we kept talking about it and discussing.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: This is where my faith comes in that I truly believe wholeheartedly, I have without a shadow of the doubt, if you guys stay with us, we could get knots to 25.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: There's already a guy, Dimitri, in Belgium, and he already forked knots because apparently it's not gonna be maintained anymore.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's heartbreaking.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: I run knots right in my computer back there and this one too.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: If we stay, we could get knots to 25%, 27%, 30%, 35%.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: With the years with you, Matt, you've been such a great asset for Bitcoin because you do not stop talking about Bitcoin on your channel in this way.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: I keep going back, and I'm gonna still follow you no matter where you go or what you do.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: But if we stay, we have that um that energy behind it.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: And we did get Cora to change some ways, you know.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: For example, bless your heart, I hope she's doing great.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: Gloria's out.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: Eventually we'll just kind of let go and went went on to the other things because she noticed that Bitcoin is a very fervent place with really dedicated people.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I truly think that we have a sway or or some sort of control, even though nobody controls it, it's like a beau beautiful dance.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: Nodes, miners and users.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: I do think that eventually you can get knots to 50% and eventually pass and be IQ 110 as a soft fork that miners will not be able to reject.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_03: I don't see um I do appreciate the sentiment, um, but I don't see that as a viable path forward, given how captured Bitcoin has become by forces, by what you might just call the fiat forces.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_03: And Saylor's a great example of that because he was he was really good when he first came into the space, and I learned a lot from him, and he had some great metaphors.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but the the warning signs were always there.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like he's been saying since the very beginning, don't spend your Bitcoin.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_03: On Bitcoin Pizza Day, don't even use it as a medium of exchange.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_03: And he said explicitly in many, many places that he wants the US dollar to remain the medium of exchange for the global medium of exchange.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: This is where I get angry at Core because see, they created Roger Verr.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think I sent corrected in this, and Roger Verr was the Bitcoin Jesus, I disagree, but he was a very powerful force for Bitcoin.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_03: He was he was a good uh force for good for many for many years.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: If Kor had listened a little bit, you know, because Satoshi did say that, you know, larger blocks are inevitable, even though he wanted to keep the blocks, block size small for as long as possible.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, I do think that these forces, if we stay, we could potentially make big changes, and core keeps ignoring everyone.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's why Kurt Wooker Jr.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: and all these guys from BSV, BCH, they left when that energy could have been with us, kind of, you know, spreading Bitcoin more and more to all of humanity because that's the goal eventually.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: I want to see all 8 billion people using Bitcoin.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: By 2050, it's gonna be like 10 billion, I believe.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: So we could definitely get to six, seven billion people using Bitcoin, the working class, the youth.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's why mostly aim to, you know, mostly because the youth has grown up to people that are teenagers, like my daughter.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: She's uh she always has friends at home.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of, you know, I send my daughter Bitcoin, we pay each other in Bitcoin, she talks about it to her friends.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: So this force if had had stayed in Bitcoin.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I had a panic attack the other day when you guys said you're art forking, but and I respect, I appreciate the also your sentiment on the matter, and I see where you're coming from too.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: So uh it can be very frustrating when you spend your life on something and core just ignores you and just dismisses everything you say in a way.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_03: I I would push back a little bit, like I would.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: Bitcoin Core is sort of just a bunch of kids.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't really view them as as a as a super malevolent force.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_03: There may be malevolent or malicious people there.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think they're just a very centralized point of failure for Bitcoin.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so they're controlled by their funders, by the nonprofits.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_03: They're also controlled by the sort of the social group they're in.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_03: You know, they they all seem to think the same way.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think the real I would say that Bitcoin Core and many of the these people that are easy to superficially blame are more just the puppets.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_03: They're not the puppet masters.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_03: But the puppet masters are the people who want to destroy Bitcoin and don't want it to become global money.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_03: And right up there is Michael Saylor with that, uh trying to onboard people into stocks instead of self-custody.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_03: Never talks about running a node, came out of nowhere to smack down our movement.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_03: 20,000 quests.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah, he wants to put uh interestingly, he wants to put U.S.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_03: dollar stable coins on top of his preferred stock, which is secured by, you know, ultimately you can pay the dividend by selling off Bitcoin.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_03: And he's been buying Bitcoin high and then selling it low during the bear market.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_03: But my my greater point here is Bitcoin was a giant threat to the system.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so we would be naive if it weren't being attacked from many, many different directions.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_03: So at the level of making it harder to run a node, more expensive to run a node, um, scaring people away from self-custody with the cold card hack, which was clearly planned.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_03: We had been in planning for years and just magically happened one week before our soft fork was scheduled to activate.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things about soft forks that a lot of people know is that you want to be, and this will be true for the upcoming hard fork for the Blake hard fork, you want to be holding your own private keys when a fork happens.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_03: Otherwise, you won't you won't get coins on the different chains.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_03: If it's just if your Bitcoin's sitting at Coinbase, then you have to rely on them to give you the coins on the other side of the fork.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so we had the cold card hack, which forced people, scared people rightfully so, into saying, Oh, I'm just gonna move my stuff onto River or Coinbase a week before the soft fork.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_03: So I see this as all highly, highly coordinated.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: Hey Matt, real quick too, going back to what, you know, like these cypherpunks, these devs that were in Bitcoin earlier and they made like millions, and you're like, well, hey, they have a ton of money and a ton of skin in the game.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they're definitely gonna figure out Bitcoin and invest in Bitcoin and be around this and work on it more.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_02: Why would they ever leave then?
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: I know you said that there's new these new companies that came in and they hire these young devs, but why would these other cypherpunks ever leave?
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: Why would they why wouldn't they just stay and be like, hey, this is how it is.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: We've obviously witnessed what it can do and it's you know life changing.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh why would they ever leave?
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: Where are these people?
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_03: Well, there's a good answer to that.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I wouldn't be quite as I wouldn't be quite as kind to the uh the Kurt, I don't know how to say his name, Kurt the BSV.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sorry, yeah.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_03: Him and uh Craig Wright and people like that.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_03: So Craig Wright was suing Bitcoin core devs.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_03: And so there were the number of people who took um like Vlad Vanderlaan, he took early retirement as soon as Craig Wright, you know, the lawsuit was over.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_03: There were there were a bunch of people who were basically like, I don't want to be sued because Craig Wright was funded by Calvin Ayer, I think his name is, who's a billionaire.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_03: So he had basically infinite money to sue people.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so there were a bunch of Bitcoin devs who just left because it's like, I don't want to be sued by a billionaire because I have no chance, it's just gonna ruin my life.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: And even for the I didn't want to endorse anything he said, by the way.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_03: No, I wasn't implying I wasn't implying that you were just just for people who who don't know who these people are.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like Craig Wright claimed to be Satoshi fraudulently.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_03: He he perjured himself, he lied under oath.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_03: These these are these are not and ultimately, going back to that heuristic I gave you at the beginning of this interview, whatever is bad for node runners is bad for Bitcoin.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_03: Both Roger Vare and Craig Wright and the big blockers, they everything they wanted to do made it much more difficult both to run a node and also to mine as a pleb.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's a that's a key a key distinction.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_03: But in terms of why people would leave, they would leave because they're tired of getting sued and wasting their life in court.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_03: They'd also leave because they're worth$100 million and they've been doing this, they've been working on code for 10 years, and maybe they get married and they start having kids, and they're just like they see the attack.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_03: But but also there have been two main names, though, that have stuck around that are sort of, I would say, the two spiritual leaders of the anti-bip BIP 110 movement, and sort of the spiritual leaders of core, and that would be Adam Back and Greg Maxwell.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_03: And they're still these guys were very, they were sort of the heroes of the block size wars and um still very widely respected in the community by people who don't really know um the stuff that I've been um writing and making videos about for the past year.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_03: But they've they've this has been the very mysterious thing where both of them, especially Greg Maxwell.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_03: So Greg Maxwell, he's famous for saying in 20 s in 2015, Operaturn is extremely problematic.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_03: We have people turning Bitcoin into a file storage service.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_03: You can go back and read all these emails, and I've covered them in my videos.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_03: You have a lot of people like like Greg Maxwell and Adam Back, who used to have a certain view, which is like we gotta put as little data on the blockchain as possible.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_03: These guys used to argue like we should use we should use compressed pub keys instead of uncompressed pub keys because we save 30 bytes.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_03: And now they're they're fine with 100 gigabytes of spam and worse on the blockchain.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_03: So that's been the really bizarre thing for many of us seeing people like them, very smart people, very wealthy people like Bach and Greg Maxwell, do a complete 180 on their views and be advocating for stuff that's that basically you can play a game where you can take old quotes from them, like sometimes like people do with me, but you take old quotes from them from 2015 and use it to argue with them in 2020.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_03: But the thing is, if you if you if you do it from first principles, they actually were right back in 2015.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_03: If Bitcoin's gonna be around for 500 years, do we really want like all these catjs that some poor family in Guatemala is gonna have to download and pay an extra thousand bucks for their hard drive?
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell And people should be able to run a node in Guatemala or wherever they are, Philippines, you know, you name it.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_03: And if it's very important, that's how it stays decentralized.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_02: Hey Matt, so uh so where do you see Bitcoin going?
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: Is Bitcoin still winning?
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_02: Where do you see all this coming to play with Bitcoin?
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_03: Aaron Ross Powell I think I think the original um what people call Bitcoin right now, I believe it has failed and that it's over.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um unless something unless something changes very drastically.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_03: But I think it's basically become captured.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_03: And this is where people will say, oh, you sound like Roger Vere saying it's been hijacked.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_03: I I don't think there was good evidence for Vare's hypothesis that somehow Blockstream hijacked hijacked uh Bitcoin.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_03: But I think what we're seeing in 2026, especially the culmination, the suppression of BIP 110 and this soft fork, uh and some of what we've learned about history of previous UASFs, it would appear to me that that Bitcoin the culture the culture has degraded to such a point that it's very it's gonna be very difficult to save it.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_03: And it's gonna be very difficult, especially after the failure of BIP 110, to um to decentralize node software.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's basically now Bitcoin Core has become emboldened.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and also it's gonna be very hard to um because of because of mining pool centralization, and so the the mining pools get to decide, they build what's called the block templates, they get to decide what goes in each block and in terms of what transactions, but more importantly in terms of signaling for soft forks.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_03: So we're in a situation now where five or six large government regulated corporations have a say on whether new uh new soft forks can activate.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'm I'm especially pessimistic after BIP 110 failing because as we talked about, this was janitorial, this was maintenance.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_03: This was literally returning Bitcoin to the state it was in in 2023.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_03: And for whatever reason, you could say we didn't have enough consensus, or you could say that basically there was there was some there was some backdoor lobbying and phone calls made.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_03: Whatever if it's the latter, then it means basically the puppet masters control Bitcoin and future upgrades will be decided by big Bitcoin, by Michael Saylor, by the mining pools, and and ultimately whoever controls them, which is which is governments who don't want Bitcoin to succeed as a medium of exchange.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: And and for the listeners, sorry Matt, if for the listeners is something that I'd like to expand on.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um so Bitcoin NGU will probably see here forever.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: Bitcoin's gonna go to 1 billion, 10 million, 100 million Satoshi.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: I disagree with that.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, he does it.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's fair.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think uh in your point, I thought I thought you might might be coming from like uh more of a cypherpunk kind of be your own bank and you know that the old Satoshi uh essence, the the ethos of Satoshi maybe will be gone, but a number go up probably might continue to happen as nation states continue to build upon Bitcoin, even though it's captured, like you said, it might be captured, but the NGU, in my opinion, might continue to go up.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: Correct me if I'm wrong.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_03: So no, I'm glad you brought that up.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_03: I think I'm pretty agnostic about its price.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I think it's become almost like an industry-captured crypto.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_03: And so we all know that certain cryptos, every crypto has its day where it goes up whatever, some huge amount, does a little bit of a pump and dump.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_03: So and then we also have various actors like Larry Fink and BlackRock and obviously Saylor, who would really benefit.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_03: And Trump, Trump as well.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, he obviously I can't remember if he sold his Bitcoin, but there are lots of powerful people who would benefit from a Bitcoin pump.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_03: And so that could definitely happen.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_03: Again, that's that that becomes if you're if you're playing for something like that, it's almost like just buying Cardano or Solana or something.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's like you're you're you're basically you're basically gambling, which is fine.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_03: You know, people can do what they want with their money.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_03: But I would where I would push back and where I push back at the beginning of your statement there was let's let's completely zoom out.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_03: What gives what gives Bitcoin value at all?
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's not it's not a use, useful natural commodity like crude oil or silver or something.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_03: What gives Bitcoin value is its is its scarcity.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_03: And this is why why it would it would pump against fiat because there's only 21 million Bitcoin and there's infinite dollars and yen and euros.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_03: So Bitcoin, what makes it valuable?
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_03: What are the fundamentals that make it value?
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_03: Valuable is it's it's scarcity.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's censorship resistant, which means you can send your Bitcoin to anyone without having to ask permission from PayPal or Venmo or Wells Fargo.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_03: Those are the two main things I would say that it's in it's important that it's censorship resistant because there's no point you could be really rich, but if you can't spend or send your money, it doesn't do you any good.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so the scarcity, censorship resistance.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_03: Well, what gives Bitcoin its scarcity and censorship resistance?
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's the pleb node runners, it's the the decentralized peer-to-peer network.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_03: That is what ensures it because if it ever gets centralized, when something gets centralized, the money printer always goes to work on it.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_03: And then it becomes it becomes a central point of failure that you can attack.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_03: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now that we're here with the hard fork, do you think that it's going to be blame back protection where you know people are Wait, wait, let's let's let me just finish this point first.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good question.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_03: So so answering this question of Bitcoin's future NGU and price path, I would say that if what I think is true, that the the the pleb node runners, and the reason it has to be the plebs, is because tens of thousands of us spread out all over the world, we have our own money in Bitcoin, we're you're never going to be able to force us to do something against our own self-interests.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe you could confuse us, you could do some social engineering and have us do something dumb.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas if Bitcoin is controlled by the large nodes, the what you might even call the economic nodes, which is a little bit of a psy-op, if Bitcoin is controlled by the large mining pool nodes and by Coinbase and Kraken and Michael Saylor and his custodians, those those are all very large regulated actors.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_03: They have to do what the government tells them because literally they they they get delisted, that the the police, the FBI come to their company and lock the door and arrest the CEO.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so what happens, for example, why why is Bitcoin able to handle uh transactions from Iran, for example, or North Korea, or any of the I'm just using enemies, current enemies of the U.S.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_03: Why doesn't the U.S.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_03: stop uh Iran?
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_03: Trevor Burrus Because they can't.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's impossible.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_03: Well basically they could they could, they could go, they could go to Foundry, which is a large regulated U.S.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_03: mining pool, and they could say you you can't mine any Bitcoin transactions that originate in Iran or whatever country.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_03: And then what what Foundry is able to say is like, I'm really sorry, we don't have any control over that.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_03: These things just get sent to our mempool, they get sent from node to node to node, no one knows where they're coming from, so we can't do anything about that.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_03: And then so I think this is what's preserved Bitcoin up until this point.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_03: But if the government figures out, and I think they because they're behind a lot of this attack, they they probably know it now, that if you can tell the mining pools not to signal for a soft fork, you can certainly tell them not to mine North Korean or Iranian transactions.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's a great point.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_03: They have no excuse.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so the this is why if you kill the Bitcoin pleb node runners, if you get them off the network, then Bitcoin's not censorship resistant and it's not scarce anymore.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_03: So you've killed, you've killed both of the fundamentals.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's why I would say maybe number goes up just because BlackRock once one wants one last pump and dump and all the big the big boys are gonna exit on that.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe we do get up to 200, 300K.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um sorry, how do I keep like my Bitcoin BTC and Blake2BTC?
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_01: How do I keep both of them without losing any of them?
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_03: So if so this soft fork is scheduled to happen on September 1st.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_03: And um if the if the code's ready, and uh so that's at least the target date.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so then there'll be two there'll be two basically there's a there's a fork that's already happened as part of BIP 110.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_03: And if you go to mempool.guide, you can see the BIP110 blockchain, which is right now quite a bit shorter than the Bitcoin blockchain.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_03: But basically the fork has already happened.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_03: When the hard fork comes, we're gonna start building on the last block of that BIP 110 chain.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_03: And we're not gonna be building on a Bitcoin core um block.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_03: So so to answer your question, if you hold your own private keys, if you're doing self-custody, if you're using a hardware wallet or you have your 12 words in an app or something, your your private keys will work on any version of the blockchain, of the Bitcoin blockchain, any forked version.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_03: You'll have the same addresses, you'll have the same seed, you'll have the same private keys for each address.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so right now, if you have your Bitcoin on Coinbase, I don't know what to tell you because then you have to ask Brian Armstrong, can you can you access and Michael's what's funny is Michael Saylor's in the same, at least for his corporate Bitcoin, for his strategy Bitcoin, Brian Armstrong controls his four coins.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_03: So I assume they get along well because they colluded against us in the south port.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_03: But hey, so basically if you own your own private keys, you'll be able to sign transactions on either chain to move coins.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: But it won't lose one or the other.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_03: So so you were asking about replay attacks.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_03: So if you sign a transaction on one version of the blockchain, someone could take it and broadcast it on the other blockchain.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_03: And you're you're so let's say I'm sending, let's say I'm sending one Bitcoin, I want to send it today to River to sell it for US dollars.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_03: So I send it, I basically sign a transaction, I broadcast it, it ends up in a block, it gets sent to River.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_03: Now, let's say someone intercepts that transaction in the mempool because it's being circulated among all the nodes.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_03: They basically look at it, it's assigned, it's a signed Bitcoin transaction, it's it's consensus valid, it follows all the rules.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_03: Someone can take that and broadcast it to the BIP 110 side or the Blake side, whatever you want to call it.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_03: And all the nodes on the Blake side, well, if it's a normal Bitcoin transaction, they will look at it and say, yep, this guy has the private keys, he signed it, it's a valid transaction.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_03: So what will happen then is I send one regular Bitcoin or traditional Bitcoin, whatever you want to call it to River, my forked Bitcoin, my Bitcoin Blake or my Bitcoin BIP 110 will also get sent to that same address at River.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_03: But the question, River's not gonna support Bitcoin Blake, I don't think.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_03: Alex Leishman's a big Bitcoin core guy.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so I've just sent my one Bitcoin, my Blake Bitcoin, to River as well.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_03: It's sent into the void.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe I can talk to support at River and persuade them to send it back to me.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_03: Right now they can't even send it back because we're mining blocks so slowly on Bip110.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: Will Coinbase accept it?
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think Coinbase is gonna make a Bitcoin Blake to be?
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_03: There's gonna be a lot of people who are gonna want to dump their Blake coin.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_03: So I imagine there'll be a market.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_02: You talked about Bitcoin being captured.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_02: When you say Bitcoin is being captured, so essentially saying it's pretty much dead.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_02: Is that a fair statement?
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_02: I would say it's it's dead man walking.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_02: So dead man walking, either way, dead or dead man walking.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_02: So then would it make it?
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's not dead yet because it's got you know it's worth$70 some thousand dollars and you can send it at the end.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_02: So then this is a bold statement, though, Rob.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of people that love Bitcoin, and we've always been in Bitcoin for a while.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_02: We love the core principles, everything that you're I love all that myself.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_02: So saying that it's dead or dead man walking, then why even have Bitcoin then for you?
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna start.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_03: So I haven't moved any to an exchange to sell it yet because these replay attacks are actually kind of difficult to think through.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_03: The only way I could I have to send my Bitcoin either to a person to sell it to them or to an exchange.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna move my Bitcoin, I'll start moving it after September 1st as a shortcut.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so you're basically, it's fair to say you're gonna be selling all your Bitcoin then.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_03: I dollar cost averaged into it over a long period of time.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_03: I'll probably I'll probably dollar cost average out of it.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I'll do it for at least a year or maybe maybe longer.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'll just and for those who don't know, dollar cost averaging if you're selling, you say um, you know, you you own one Bitcoin, I'm gonna sell one 50 second of my Bitcoin every week for 52 weeks for a year.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_03: And you just kind of like Monday morning comes, you sell one 50 second.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_03: And and it's because it's because I'm agnostic about whether Bitcoin's gonna crash from here.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_03: I do think we have some bad news coming out about uh Blockstream and Adam Back that I've talked about on my channel.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_03: I I don't need to talk about it here.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_03: I think I think the community is gonna be hit with some very shocking news.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, again, this is just my belief, but I think we're gonna go through a terrible period in the in the coming month or so when some mainstream articles, mainstream media articles start coming out about Blockstream, because obviously Adam Back and Blockstream are very important to the even if they didn't hijack Bitcoin, they're still very important.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_03: And Adam Back has been one of the spokesmen people against against BIP 110.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, um I don't believe in BTC anymore.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think there's a path out, either growing the node count or trying to get a lot of hash power.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm gonna be slowly exiting.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_03: I'll keep all my Bitcoin Blake coins, and I imagine it's gonna, after the fork, I think you'll probably be able to get a Bitcoin Blake or whatever.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_03: I I'm actually just gonna call it Bitcoin.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because basically, and there's this fine line we have to walk where we don't want to sound like Roger Vare, where it's like mines the real Bitcoin.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_03: But basically, as uh this hard fork, what it's doing for people who haven't been following it is it's changing the proof of work algorithm, which is the basically the mining algorithm.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_03: We're changing it from SHA 256, double SHA-256, where it's been since the days of Satoshi.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_03: We're changing it to Blake 2B, which is why I'm calling it Blake Bitcoin for lack of a better name.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_03: But this new coin, the reason I certainly don't consider it a shit coin, it may be a bad idea for other reasons.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_03: A shit coin or an altcoin is something where you you launch a new coin, but this is this is going to be a fork of Bitcoin that inherits the existing UTXO set.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_03: So whatever ownership of Bitcoin is right now, or the whatever the last block is on the Bitcoin BIP 110 chain, that's where we'll start building from.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_03: And this avoids the problems.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_03: You you know, if you launch your own coin, there's a problem of you know, you keep some for yourself that's you know, pre-mined and that's unethical, or you have to figure out how do you distribute the coins initially.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_03: And the way most crypto works is you know, you give the guys with the big YouTube channels, you give them, you know,$10,000 worth of the crypto, the new crypto, then they pump it and dump it on their followers, et cetera.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_03: I want to really distinguish what we're doing.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's completely different from that.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_03: There's no money in this for anyone, for any of us.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's just a lot of work.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um I consider it basically Bitcoin with a proof of work change.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_03: And everyone who owns whatever amount of Bitcoin you own today in self-custody, you'll have that much Bitcoin on the new chain.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so just to put a fine point on this, this is something we've talked about for I've talked about on my channel for many years.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_03: Luke Dasher was talking about it even in 2017.
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_03: What is the solution in Bitcoin if the mining pools go rogue and refuse to do what you want them to do?
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_03: So because mining pools tend to be very short, they've displayed low time preference behavior.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_03: They just want to make as much money today and tomorrow as possible.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_03: They don't really um they don't really care about the long term health of the Bitcoin network.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_03: Many of them are publicly traded, so they have to just worry about Their earnings over the next 90 days.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_03: So what do you do?
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_03: And this is something I've been asking people who are calling me a shit coiner now, for example, what would you do?
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_03: What would you be your solution if the mining pools, for example, just started mining empty blocks going forward?
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_03: And why would they do this?
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_03: They would do this because the Chinese government and the U.S.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_03: government would collude and say, we want to thwart Bitcoin.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_03: We want to really hamper the transactions.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_03: So what would you do if you cannot transact in BTC anymore because the mining pools were and they're happy to mine empty blocks because they they make 99% of their revenue just from mining the blocks, not from transaction fees.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_03: They make it from the block subsidy, the 3.125 Bitcoin.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_03: So what would each of you guys do if you were convinced that the mining pools had gone rogue and they weren't letting you transact, or maybe they they started increasing the supply on their own, or or they started imposing what we could call demarrage, where they're basically like, yeah, I'd really love to uh mine that transaction for you, but um I've gotten together with my friends, we're not making enough money.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_03: The Chinese pools and the American pools, we're now charging uh a special 10% premium fee.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_03: So you're selling$100,000 worth of Bitcoin.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's gonna be a$10,000 transaction fee right there.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_03: What are you gonna do about it?
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_03: None of us are gonna mine it.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_03: You could wait, there's 1% of the network, you could wait, um, you know, you could wait five weeks and you'll finally get your transaction through.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_03: So that would be a situation I think most of us would agree, that would be a time when we want to fire the miners because they're working against Bitcoin as money.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_03: They're refusing to even let us transact in Bitcoin.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_03: They're mining empty blocks that don't contain transactions.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_03: So at that point, you would you would want to fire the miners.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_03: And the way you fire them is by changing the mining algorithm, the proof of work algorithm.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's basically what what Bitcoin Blake is doing.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_03: Everything's staying the same.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um we're just changing the changing the proof of work algorithm.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_03: The only thing we're gonna be missing, which is a huge thing, is we're gonna be missing out on a lot of network effects.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_03: So for example, Michael Saylor is not gonna be buying Bitcoin Blake.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_03: And Larry Fink is not gonna be buying Bitcoin Blake.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_03: Now, of course, both of those are fiat enemies of Bitcoin when you see how they behave.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe that you could spin that as a good thing or a bad thing.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to keep both of them and just huddle them forever as I was planning to do Bitcoin.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_01: I do not think I do not think.
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's why it's I think that's why I think I don't think people are gonna be dumping it.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_01: People are saying that the you know, like the BCH that happened, that uh people sold all their BCH and bought Bitcoin with it.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna keep both forever.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think people are gonna be dumping it.
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_03: Aaron Powell I think that's a conservative thing to do.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_03: And that's an interesting data point, actually, because I've heard that from so many people.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_03: Uh even people who really hate the fork, they're like, I really hate this, but yeah, I'll just keep the Bitcoin Blake anyway.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because the umph, the the energy, the cipherbook energy like yours is behind be a bleak, you know, to be so in my opinion.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_03: Bitcoin Blake is just gonna have um just in at least in my opinion, I'm obviously biased because I'm on that side, but just the coolest people, the coolest OGs, the people who are out there mining at home and building their own software using LLMs and getting their hands dirty.
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_03: On the other side, you have kind of the suit coiners who just want to like buy a stock and sit it, leave it in their brokerage account, which is you know, you can do that, that's fine.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_03: Come to Bitcoin to like play around with stocks.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like I've done that.
• 1:09:18
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• 1:09:20
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• 1:09:26
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• 1:09:30
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• 1:09:33
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• 1:09:38
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• 1:09:40
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• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_03: So what's gonna happen on Bitcoin Core on what people know is Bitcoin today, is there's gonna be child pornography that ends up on it.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_03: And that's gonna be really disgusting and awful.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of people are gonna be shocked by that and they're just gonna leave Bitcoin.
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_03: They're gonna sell their Bitcoin, they're gonna stop running a node.
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm I'm not running, I've stopped running, I'm running, I'm still running Bitcoin Knots plus BIP 110.
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_03: The new software for Bitcoin Blake should be out in about two weeks.
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_03: But what I want to paint for you is a scenario here, because one way I've talked about this is that Bitcoin, SHA 256, traditional Bitcoin is like the Titanic.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you should you should not hit an iceberg with your boat.
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_03: You really shouldn't be drunk or asleep if you're the captain.
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_03: But once you've hit it and once the hole is big enough, there's only one thing that's gonna happen.
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_03: You're not gonna get another boat to come out there and patch the hole on a giant ship like that.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so one way of thinking about Bitcoin Blake is building a life raft off the Titanic.
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_03: And we don't know how fast the Titanic's gonna go down, but it sure would be nice to have a copy of Bitcoin that has better monetary properties.
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_03: And so as part of this, we're we're actually fixing Luke's because Luke has been aware of all these problems with Bitcoin that require a hard fork in order to fix.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_03: So they're block withholding attacks and it can happen with mining.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_03: There's lots of obscure stuff in terms of block headers and signatures that that are real problems in Bitcoin that Bitcoin Core would agree with.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_03: They're just like, well, we can't do a hard fork now, uh, so we're gonna have to wait until, you know, throw the kitchen sink and everything in when we finally do a hard fork.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_03: So the way I mean we have we have the most brilliant living Bitcoin dev working on Bitcoin Blake.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_03: He's fixing all the problems, all the known problems that even core would agree with.
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_03: The other chain is going to be spammed.
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_03: The spammers and scammers are now gonna run wild on Bitcoin SHA 256.
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_03: The UTXO set's gonna bloat.
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_03: There's gonna be CSAM child sexual abuse material, there's gonna be spam, there's gonna be lots of awful stuff.
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_03: Blockstream, I believe, is gonna blow up.
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_03: I believe that Adam Back is gonna go to jail.
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_03: There's gonna be a lot of bad news on the other side.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so when is all this happening?
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_03: I've made some article, I've made some videos about this, but there's a there's an excellent substack that's been there there's there's some mainstream uh journalist outlets that are gonna publish something about Blockstream, I believe is it's actively imploding right now.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_03: And they've been running basically they've been running a cloud mining Ponzi scheme, in my opinion.
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_03: That's just that's just my opinion.
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um so what does the pleb do from here moving forward?
• 1:12:18
  SPEAKER_02: They're the people that that go to work nine to five, they buy Bitcoin with extra money, they put it in cold storage, and then they go and they live their life.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_02: What do these people do moving forward and what should they expect?
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_03: I think I think the most important thing for them to do is to um if they're not already running a node, run some sort of node.
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_03: You can run Bitcoin Core if you want, you can run Bitcoin Nots, or you can run Bitcoin Blake, and just learn how to, you know, it's it's harsh to it, you never want to say to someone you're you're not a real, you know, you're not a real Italian if you don't like pasta or this called the the the true sc the the no true Scotsman fallacy.
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_03: Like you're not a true Scotsman if you put milk on your oatmeal or whatever it is.
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want this to come across the wrong way where I'm saying you're not a real Bitcoiner, like you're not a real uh Coldplay fan or something.
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um but but but literally you can't be a full Bitcoiner if you don't run a Bitcoin node.
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the most important thing.
• 1:13:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I think if you start having your your money and your Bitcoin in self-custody and cold storage is a great, a great way to start.
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_03: The next thing you want to do is run a Bitcoin, get yourself a Start9 server.
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_03: You can buy or build one, spin up some node software on there, Bitcoin node software, run run Bitcoin Knots or Bitcoin Blake, and then uh connect it to Sparrow Wallet and start actually taking control of your money and learning how to send Bitcoin transactions instead of using the Coinbase app or using trusting someone else to send them for you.
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_03: And once you do that, then you'll you'll have a then a lot of the stuff I'm saying will begin to make sense because you're gonna be a sovereign, a sovereign uh Bitcoiner.
• 1:13:52
  SPEAKER_03: And you'll begin to realize, like when you spin up a node, you're gonna realize how bad the spam attacks were in 2023 and 2024 when your your node download stalls out for 48 hours because you're having to download clown and cat and JPEG pictures as part of using Bitcoin as money.
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the most important thing.
• 1:14:09
  SPEAKER_03: And then I would say pay, I would say probably hold on to your your BTC and your figure out how to get access to your Bitcoin blake, which which I think will, you know, has a chance of unseeding BTC for all the reasons I gave before.
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_03: So I would hate to see my my whole my whole message, the message of my channel really since the beginning, but especially the last 18 months, has been motivating Bitcoin plebs to take back control from the big companies, do self-custody, even use a seed signer hardware wallet, learn how to build your own hardware wallet so you don't have to trust a commercial hardware wallet and run your own node and just get this full Freedom Tech stack going for you.
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_03: And once you once you've done that, you'll realize, oh, I have access to these various forks of Bitcoin as well.
• 1:14:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so then they can make that decision and they can um they can huddle huddle that as well.
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_01: This has been the best Bitcoin podcast ever when it comes to, I want to save it and come back to it.
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna clip the BJUies out of it, and I think it's gonna be very insightful in about five to ten years to see what happened.
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, I think both chains will do just fine, and Blake2B is gonna be surprisingly powerful because it's bringing a lot of cypherpugs into it.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_03: There are a ton of plebs on on Blake.
• 1:15:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like the energy is is grassroots and it's it's incredible.
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_03: And we're having a lot of fun.
• 1:15:29
  SPEAKER_02: The way you uh the way you finish that off there, too, Matt, you sound like Bitcoin's not captured or dead by the way you're Bitcoin shot Bitcoin SHOT 256 is captured.
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh okay.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_03: Bitcoin lives on.
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_03: Bitcoin lives on.
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_02: We're full too.
• 1:15:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, thanks again for taking the time out, both of you guys, to come on here.
• 1:15:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um I see a lot of good, a lot of bad with Matt right now.
• 1:15:51
  SPEAKER_02: At the end of the day, let's hear it from you, yourself.
• 1:15:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I I know you put your videos out there also.
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's a little different dynamic, right?
• 1:15:57
  SPEAKER_02: We're just uh talking on here.
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_02: And this is been a way to do it.
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's good to talk to and that's the other thing I would encourage the plebs who who listen to both you guys.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_03: This is Bitcoin and the Bitcoin community and the ecosystem, it's a really contested space.
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_03: And you have to understand that there's spooks everywhere, there are government intel agents, there are the best people in the world that are on Bitcoin, the coolest, nicest, most generous people, and also the most sociopathic, psychopathic, absolutely insane, awful human beings.
• 1:16:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so you you're gonna have to learn discernment in this area.
• 1:16:31
  SPEAKER_03: I should tell remind people I'm an English major, I'm not technical, but you now have access to Chat GBT, you have access to you can hit me up on Twitter.
• 1:16:40
  SPEAKER_03: Don't just learn how Bitcoin works and don't trust people.
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_03: That's the most important thing because there's so many snakes.
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_03: There are a lot of good people, but there's so many snakes, and I want everyone thinking for themselves.
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's really important.
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Because it seems like nobody thinks for themselves.
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_02: We have one of my friends, he just moved out here recently, uh, a couple years ago.
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's so funny.
• 1:17:00
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, everyone here uses their hands, right?
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_02: They all work hard, like they all use their hands, but nobody uses this.
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:17:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, that's so true.
• 1:17:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's so true.
• 1:17:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um Matt, thanks again for coming on here.
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I really appreciate it.
• 1:17:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, just good or bad.
• 1:17:16
  SPEAKER_02: Let's hear each side, right?
• 1:17:18
  SPEAKER_02: There's a soft fork.
• 1:17:20
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, why is there a soft fork?
• 1:17:21
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, why are we running this program, this core, this develop, whatever it may be.
• 1:17:26
  SPEAKER_02: This is the technical side.
• 1:17:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm more on the other side.
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm always like love learning, and this is just another part of like learning more about Bitcoin.
• 1:17:34
  SPEAKER_02: So thanks again, Matt, uh, Gus.
• 1:17:36
  SPEAKER_02: My pleasure for your time.
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much, man.
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate you having this.
• 1:17:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, let's let's do this.
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_03: Let's do this again in the future.
• 1:17:43
  SPEAKER_03: You guys asked great questions.
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_03: This was this was awesome.
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 1:17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 1:17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Would love to.
• 1:17:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, again, to all listeners, uh, thanks again for tuning in.
• 1:17:50
  SPEAKER_02: We really appreciate you guys.
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um whatever we said here, don't trust, go verify for yourself.
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I'm a huge fan on that.
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter whatever it is, whatever we said here, this, this, that.
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_02: Just go do your own research.
• 1:18:04
  SPEAKER_03: You guys can you guys can figure it out.
• 1:18:05
  SPEAKER_03: Like, don't be intimidated.
• 1:18:06
  SPEAKER_03: Don't let the gatekeeper say, oh, this is just for devs or this.
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_03: You guys, anyone can figure it out.
• 1:18:11
  SPEAKER_03: If you can figure out how to drive a car or like raise a kid, this is much easier than either of us.
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've been dude, this BAP110 thing has been a super blessing.
• 1:18:19
  SPEAKER_01: I've been talking to I have Claude, I have ChatGBT and Grok.
• 1:18:24
  SPEAKER_01: I've been diving deep into it, and I push the uh the button where it reads out loud for you for hours just talking about this stuff.
• 1:18:30
  SPEAKER_01: So this is very insightful.
• 1:18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Matt.
• 1:18:32
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate it.
• 1:18:33
  SPEAKER_01: I respect you very much.
• 1:18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Please, guys, go follow uh Bitcoin University on YouTube and you're not gonna be disappointed.
• 1:18:39
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of good knowledge.
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Go back to his old videos.
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_01: He's very consistent.
• 1:18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Matt.
• 1:18:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a pleasure talking to you, my friend.
• 1:18:45
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, thanks for having me.
• 1:18:46
  SPEAKER_03: It was great chatting with you guys.
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_03: Bye guys.
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_02: You made it this far, so you might as well hit that subscribe button.
• 1:18:56
  SPEAKER_02: You won't want to miss the conversations we got coming next.
• 1:18:59
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for watching, and we'll see you on the moon.