Latest / The Post-Separation Abuse Podcast / 123. When Children Resist or Refuse - Part 3: Your nervous system is not an oracle

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123. When Children Resist or Refuse - Part 3: Your nervous system is not an oracle · The Post-Separation Abuse Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Before we get into today's episode, I want to explain why we're going here.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because we're right in the middle of a series about children resisting or refusing time with a parent.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: We've been talking about the child, we've been talking about relationships, we've been talking about attachment, caregiving, safety, preference, rupture, family violence, coercive control, developmental factors, and all the different things that might sit underneath a child telling us no, either with their words or their behaviour.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: And now we're about to spend an episode talking about your nervous system.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I appreciate that you might be sitting there thinking, Danielle, what the fuck does this have to do with the fact that my child doesn't want to spend time with their other parent?
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, quite a lot, actually.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because if we're going to take our children's resistance seriously, then we also have to be serious about how we assess what we're seeing.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that means nobody gets diplomatic immunity from assessment.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Not the parent that the child is resisting, not the parent that our child prefers, not the family report writer, not your lawyer, not the barrister, not your nervous system.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: When your child is distressed about spending time with the other parent, particularly where you've experienced family violence, coercive control, abuse, other kinds of frightening behaviour, and maybe years of having your reality denied, your child's distress doesn't arrive in a vacuum.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: It lands in you.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it lands in a nervous system that has spent years learning that tiny changes in someone's behaviour matters enormously.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: A different tone, an out-of-character message, a shift in the mood, something your child says in the car, the look on their face, a changeover, a tummy ache on a Thursday night, a meltdown when they come home.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Your body might notice all of those things before you've consciously made sense of them.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes that inner alarm is telling you something incredibly important.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes there's a fire.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not at all interested in teaching protective parents to override themselves when there's evidence of genuine danger.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: But if we're going to use the alarm as information, we also have to be willing to assess what it's telling us.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes there's really a fire, and sometimes there's just burnt toast.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes, because human beings are very inconveniently complicated, there's maybe a little bit of smoke, an alarm that's quite sensitive because there's been a fire before, and a situation that still needs a lot of careful attention.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Those things can exist at the same time.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: And this matters enormously when a child is resisting or refusing time with a parent.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because our child's distress is information, our observations are information, their behaviour's information, their disclosures are information, our history is information, and our nervous system's response is information too.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: But information and conclusion are not the same thing.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: If my body screams danger, that deserves my attention.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: But it doesn't automatically tell me what the danger is, where it's coming from, what it means for my child, or what should happen next.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: We still have to assess.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: So there's another reason that this conversation belongs here.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes a child's resistance becomes so frightening to the preferred parent that the parenting arrangement starts carrying another job.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: It isn't only being asked what arrangement is appropriate for this particular child, it's also being asked, what arrangement can I survive emotionally?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: And they're not at all the same question.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that that might sting a bit, particularly for primary caregivers, particularly for protective parents, the idea that your functioning should even enter the conversation can feel like yet another fucking spotlight being turned on to you.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: You've already spent years managing everything, you're protecting, you're documenting, you've attended appointments, you're dealing with the schools, you're helping your kids to regulate, you're responding to your lawyers, you've navigated some aspects of court in many situations.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: You've possibly spent years being told that you're overreacting, emotional, difficult, controlling, anxious, or incapable of moving on.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: And now I'm here saying, hey, let's talk about your nervous system.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: Great, thanks, Danielle.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm not having this conversation with you because I'm at all interested in blaming the preferred parent.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm interested in doing something much more useful.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that is having a conversation about differentiation.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: What belongs to your child, what belongs to the other parent, what belongs to the history, what belongs to the current circumstances, and what belongs to you.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because the more accurately we can separate those things, the better able we can respond to what's actually happening rather than what we fear is happening.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: And incidentally, that's capacity.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's also what this whole series is about.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Not deciding in advance that children's resistance always means abuse, not deciding that it always means they're being alienated, not deciding that the preferred parent is always right, and certainly not deciding that the preferred parent is always the fucking problem.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Rather, it's about becoming better at understanding what the information in front of us actually means.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, today we are turning the spotlight around, not because we've stopped listening to our child, but because the person who's listening to the child matters as well.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if we're going to ask everyone else in the system to tolerate some scrutiny, complexity, and uncertainty, then we have to be willing to do the same.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about our nervous system.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to another episode of the Post-Separation Abuse Podcast.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: In the last episode, we pondered what a meaningful relationship actually means.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: I asked you to question the language that gets repeated so often in separated parenting conversations that eventually everyone just starts nodding as though the words themselves have somehow answered the question.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Meaningful relationship, substantial time, shared care, risk, attachment.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Today I want us to dive into something considerably more personal.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm dysregulated, I'm triggered.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: I won't cope if the children spend more time with the other parent.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm traumatized from the coercive control.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Those statements can describe something very real.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: They can describe the aftermath of very real abuse.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: They can describe a nervous system that learned for very good reasons that a particular person, message, sound, place or situation meant danger.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And they still don't answer the questions that we sometimes really want them to answer.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Your nervous system is information.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Your nervous system is not an oracle.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Now before anybody hears that as Danielle Black thinks trauma is imaginary, absolutely not.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you feel unsafe because you genuinely are unsafe.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the person is still threatening you, still stalking you, still using communication to intimidate you, still breaching boundaries, still weaponizing the children, still finding ways around orders or other safeguards.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the attempts at control did not end at separation, they just changed form.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: If there's a fire, we deal with the fire, the physical fire, the actual fire.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: If there is an active fire in your kitchen, you're not going to stop and ask, am I genuinely unsafe right now?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it just my felt safety that's under threat?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes our observable physical environments have significantly changed.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's no fire in the kitchen.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: However, the smoke alarm is still responding as though the original fire is there right now, as though that fire is still blazing, as though the original danger is occurring in that moment.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes both things are true at once.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: The smoke alarm is blaring and we're genuinely under threat.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: The distinctions matter and the specifics matter.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: One of the strangest things that can happen in trauma-informed spaces is that we can become so frightened of invalidating someone that we stop being willing to ask whether the response that they are experiencing is still in proportion to the current situation.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: A trauma response can be completely understandable.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: It can be very common.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: It can make perfect sense when we understand what someone has experienced.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it can still be causing enormous problems in their life.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Something being understandable does not mean that that thing is proportionate.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Common does not mean optimal.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Explainable does not mean that it's not able to be changed.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Normalizing the existence of a trauma response shouldn't mean normalizing permanent captivity to it.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Again, imagine the smoke alarm.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the smoke alarm is screaming because the house is on fire.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Great, we definitely want that smoke alarm.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes it's screaming because someone burned the toast.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now that does not mean that the alarm is defective.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: It means that the alarm detected something associated with danger and did exactly what it was supposed to do.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Trauma-informed practice does not mean ripping the smoke alarms out of the ceiling.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: It also should not mean evacuating the fucking suburb every time somebody makes a bit of toast.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: The work is learning to ask what exactly is happening right now?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: There is a difference between feeling unsafe and being unsafe.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Feeling unsafe and being unsafe are not always the same thing.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now, sometimes they are the same thing.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's important that we do say that.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: A victim survivor might be responding to current threats, stalking, intimidation, coercion, harassment, or other behavior that creates an entirely rational fear of what might happen next.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: But if we make the opposite mistake and treat every internal alarm as objective proof of current external danger, we lose our ability to assess accurately.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: My trauma response is evidence about my internal experience, but it doesn't by itself provide evidence about someone else's current behavior.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: This is why we have to be willing to go deeper, be willing to get curious about it, be willing to question it.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: What is the other person, perhaps your former partner, actually doing now?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: What access do they have to you right now?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: What communication is occurring right now?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: What pattern has continued?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: What has stopped?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: What's happening for the kids?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: What are you observing?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: What are they reporting?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: What are you inferring and concluding?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: What remains genuinely unknown?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's important that we acknowledge here that being open-minded does not mean that we suddenly develop amnesia.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: We're not throwing away the known history simply because we're trying to understand the present.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Past danger, historical danger, and present, current danger are definitely related questions.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: But they are not at all the same question.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: Saying, quote, I'm dysregulated tells people a lot less than you might realize.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: This is where we're going to get more precise.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: If you tell me, quote, I'm dysregulated a lot, of course I believe you.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I still don't really know what you mean.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: What does the word dysregulated mean to you?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Are you anxious?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Often crying, ruminating and struggling with intrusive thoughts, unable to concentrate at work, checking your phone repeatedly, sleeping badly every now and then sending messages that you later wish that you hadn't venting in Facebook groups, spending hours mindlessly scrolling on social media?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Do you experience panic symptoms?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Do you dissociate?
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Are you unable to eat?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: Or are you unable to stop eating?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Are you struggling to get out of bed?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Have you been unable to get the kids to school?
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Not because they've refused, but because you simply can't go through the motions of getting yourself organized and out the door?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Are you unable to remain emotionally available and tuned into your kids?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Have you needed another adult to take over significant aspects of their care?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And if so, how often?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: Have you become at times an unsafe parent?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Those experiences can all matter.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: They can all mean quote dysregulated.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: And very clearly, those things are not the same thing.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where I want to mention some of the things that we coach on here at Danielle Black Coaching.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: One is insight, understanding why something could trigger you.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Another is regulation and grinding skills, knowing what to do when your nervous system or emotions are triggered or activated in some way.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Another is capacity.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's being able to actually use those regulation and grinding skills in the moment when we need them most.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then we have to get curious about our functioning.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: What actually happens to my ability to live and parent when I'm triggered, when my nervous system is activated, when I'm in fight, flight, faint, freeze, fawn mode.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because activation does not automatically mean the same thing as dysregulation either.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: In the same way that dysregulation is not automatically the same thing as severe functional impairment.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: And distress is not automatically the same thing as impaired parenting capacity.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Those things don't just collapse into each other.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: So if you've said at any point in time, or maybe have thought, quote, the children spending more time with their other parent will dysregulate me so badly that it will affect my parenting, well then that leads us to another question, which is how?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: How will it dysregulate you?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: How will it affect your parenting?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Not because I don't believe you, but because I care enough not to let a clinically flavoured word like dysregulation do all of the thinking or the heavy lifting.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: And this leads me to the next question, which is what exactly are you predicting?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: There's a huge difference between, quote, this arrangement will be very emotionally difficult for me, and quote, this arrangement is likely to produce such severe emotional and psychological deterioration in me that I will be unable to function adequately as a parent.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Those two things are absolutely not the same thing.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're predicting the second, that any increase in time for your child to spend with the other parent or other proposed parenting arrangement will produce such severe emotional and psychological deterioration in you that you will be unable to function adequately as a parent?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: What is that prediction based on?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Has it happened before?
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: What exactly happened?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: How long did it last?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: What did your functioning actually look like specifically?
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: What did your treating professionals observe?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: What was happening externally at the time?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Was the other parent continuing abusive behaviour?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Was litigation escalating?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Were there no safeguards whatsoever?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: What's changed since then?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: This is not about cross-examining your trauma, rather it's an appropriate assessment.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: Now here's the part that might piss people off if they're not already.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, it does go with this territory.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: If the only way that you can remain psychologically functional is for your child to never spend more time with the other parent, then the parenting arrangement has started doing another job.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: It has become part of your emotion and nervous system regulation strategy.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'll say that again because I think it's really important.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: If the only way that you can remain psychologically, perhaps emotionally, perhaps mentally functional, is for your child to never spend more time with the other parent, then the parenting arrangement has started doing the job of regulating your emotions and your nervous system.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now sometimes those things can appropriately overlap with their child's actual safety needs.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's true if there's ongoing danger.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Those things can absolutely point in the same direction.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes they don't.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if they don't, we need to be able to see that because the care arrangements for your child can't be the only treatment plan for your trauma.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now that does not mean, okay, ladies, let's just regulate harder.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's not what I'm saying.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Rather, what I'm saying is that it means we have to be able to distinguish external protection from internal rehabilitation.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we need stronger boundaries, more neutral changeovers, better contained boundaried communication, legal protections, some kind of supervision, professional intervention or other external safeguard.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we need professional treatment to manage and process trauma, to work on regulation skills.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we need more support, psychotherapy, coaching, perhaps medication, perhaps rest, time, and practice with our regulation and grinding skills.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Oftentimes, what we really need is a combination of those things.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: But we can't get clear on which problem we're actually solving if we call all of it, quote, coercive control or quote dysregulation and simply stop there.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go a bit deeper.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: You might be connected with a psychologist or counsellor or other therapist.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: You might be able to understand your trauma really well in your therapist's office.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Let's call her Cheryl.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: You might be able to sit with Cheryl in a plush sofa that costs probably more than what my first car did.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Breathe in the faint smell of gardenias and discuss your window of tolerance.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm not saying that that's not valuable.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: Therapy can teach Regulation skills.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: Coaching can also teach and rehearse regulation skills.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: But a regulation skill that you can only use in Cheryl's office or on a call with your coach is not yet a functional regulation skill.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: The test is Tuesday night at 7.43 pm when the Our Family Wizard notification arrives.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Can you pause?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Can you notice the surge in your body without treating it as a prophecy?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Can you ignore the notification, knowing that genuinely urgent or time-sensitive communication will occur via phone call or text message?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Can you check what the message actually says without immediately jumping to reply?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Can you distinguish what's happened from what you fear will happen?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Can you decide whether that message genuinely needs a response?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Can you put your phone down and continue on with making or eating dinner?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Can you remain available to your child in that moment if they're in your care?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Can you recover from whatever activation might have occurred within you?
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where I'm saying that receiving support, whether that's coaching support, whether that's therapy, none of that is the same thing as building capacity.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: And saying, quote, I've done the work or quote, I'm doing the work, that needs to be scrutinized too.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: What can you do now that you couldn't do before?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we need to get curious about.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Not how many hours you've spent with Cheryl over how many years.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: That tells me nothing other than you've potentially helped Cheryl put her kids through private school.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: And here's where I'm going to say something else that might be a bit controversial, but you know, oh well, in for a penny, in for a pound.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need to stay traumatized in order to prove that you were traumatized.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'll say that again because I think it bears repeating.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: You do not need to stay traumatized in order to prove to anyone that you were once traumatized.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm saying this because over the years I've worked with parents who have been frightened that if they recover from the trauma, someone will use the recovery against them.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: That if they do EMDR and recover from complex PTSD the way that I did, that that will somehow mean that the abuse that they experienced wasn't really that serious after all.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: That if they stop having panic attacks, someone might say that they're actually fine with the kid spending more time in the care of the other parent.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: That if they can communicate through a parenting app without having a nervous breakdown, that that will somehow prove that maybe they were once exaggerating about what they experienced.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I can't tell you what a court will do with any particular piece of evidence.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's a question for your legal team.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: But as a human proposition, as a coaching proposition, what I want you to hear is that you don't need to remain traumatized and activated to prove that somebody harmed you.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Recovery is not an exoneration for the person that harmed you.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Getting better does not make what happened okay.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Developing capacity for emotion regulation and being able to set and maintain healthy boundaries does not mean that you were never traumatized.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Being able to receive an Our Family Wizard notification without spending six hours in survival mode doesn't mean that the coercive control was imaginary.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: And deliberately avoiding recovery because remaining traumatized, remaining unwell feels strategically useful creates a terrible trap.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: It means that you're trying to build your future around incapacity.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: You did not cause the harm that was done to you.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: But you are still the only person who can do your part of repairing it.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: And all of this becomes especially difficult when one or more of your children are struggling.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: If they're crying before transitions, if they're coming home dregulated, if they're telling you that they don't want to go, or showing you that they don't want to go with their behaviour.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: You may have genuine concerns about what happens in the other household.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Take all of those things seriously, document those things and seek appropriate professional guidance about what should happen next.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Listen, listen to your children and listen to professional guidance.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Keep clear factual records of what you directly observe or are told without turning yourself into the investigator.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Get appropriate professional and legal advice.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Don't gaslight yourself out of the actual factual evidence.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: But also don't assume that the intensity of your own physiological and emotional response tells you exactly what's caused your child's behavior.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: A child's distress and dysregulation can be real, important, and deserving of a very thorough assessment.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: And the preferred parent's distress can still amplify all of it inadvertently.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Both things can be true, and no one should get immunity from scrutiny and assessment.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: Not the other parent just simply because they apparently love the kids, not you, even if you're traumatized, not the report writer because they have a handful of letters after their name and are apparently, quote, well respected.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then we come to a question to reflect on, which is can you tolerate evidence that your child is okay?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: If they have a good weekend with the other parent or that parts of the weekend were good, were fun, enjoyable, can that simply be allowed to be information?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Or does it immediately become evidence to you of masking, coercion, bribery, emotional manipulation, or coerced happiness?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes a pattern of needing friends, grandparents, or elaborate entertainment, so the Disneyland parenting, every time to assist with the parenting and keeping the kids happy, can become relevant.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: You I'm certainly not saying don't document those things because over time, that's definitely something that can have us questioning the other parents' capacity for parenting if they don't seem to ever be able to parent without all the things, without the elaborate entertainment, without the gifts, without the sleepovers, without the friends, without the grandparents, without other adults there to help or to do the lion's share, as it may be.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: What I am saying though is that your child having fun with the other parent is not automatic evidence of something nefarious.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: It can't be if your child is miserable, then that proves that the care arrangements are harmful, and that if your child has fun, that also proves that the arrangements are harmful.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: If every outcome is working to prove your hypothesis, then your hypothesis is not really doing any assessing of the facts.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the question of what would change my mind applies here.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes what I suspect when chatting with parents is that not a lot would change their mind, if anything.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this is not about forgetting established facts.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Rather, it means that we don't squash and contort everything into a container that's labelled, quote, other parent bad, child spending time with them is bad, the end.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Now, there are situations in which I'm very aware that that broad sweeping label might be accurate.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not every situation, and honestly, I don't even think it's most situations.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: There's another place that dysregulation can hide.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the terror is not only about real or perceived danger, but sometimes it's also about our own identity.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: I've always been the primary caregiver.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: I've always known them best.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: They need me.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the one who's always been emotionally attuned to them, who's co-regulated with them.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: All of those things can be true.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: But quote, primary caregiver is a caregiving history, and it can be very problematic if it becomes your entire identity.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want our journey post-separation to be akin to what's your name?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Primary caregiver.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: What do you do?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Primary caregiver.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: What do you enjoy?
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: Primary caregiver.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: What are your goals?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: Primary caregiver.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: What happens when your kids grow up, move out, fall in love, travel, move interstate or overseas?
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: Primary caregiver?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Healthy parenting contains a very brutal paradox, and that is that we pour ourselves into our kids ultimately over time so that they will actually need less of us.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I will say that again because I think it is fundamentally one of the most important things that we can learn on this path.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: We put so much of ourselves into parenting, so much into tuning into our kids, into knowing them, into understanding them and loving them, so that over time they'll become more of who they are, more uniquely themselves, knowing that they are unconditionally loved by us, feeling that they are unconditionally loved by us, knowing and feeling in the core of who they are, that we support and that we champion their autonomy, their confidence, their healthy boundaries, and their growing independence.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thinking or feeling or saying, quote, my child needs me, is not the same as, quote, I need to be needed by my child.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's important that we can differentiate ourselves from our children and from our parenting role.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: Differentiation can sound something like this You are you, I am me.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: Your feelings belong to you, and I can help you carry them.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: My feelings belong to me, and it's not your job to carry them.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Your child is going to have a life.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: They will experience disappointment, grief, fear, rejection, heartbreak, failure, confusion, pain, all the things on the adventure that is their life.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes your job is going to be to prevent harm.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes your job will be to change something in the environment.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes your job will be to advocate for them to the best of your ability.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes your job will be to say, this is hard, and I'm here.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: We can do hard things.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: And we need enough capacity to be able to tell the difference.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Or at the very least, to be able to be curious about the difference.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: If you know much about me, if you've listened to much of this podcast, if you know anything about my story, you know that I get it.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know that I have learned many things along the way.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know that I'm not over here talking about things that I've never personally experienced.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that that's partly why you tune into this podcast, while you might currently be one of my one-on-one clients, or working with another coach on my team, a coach who I've hand-selected very carefully, very specifically for their skill set.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe you want to work with me or with Trudy or Bridget one day.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe you're a blueprint member and you're doing the work in whatever way you can manage.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: I also know that my lived experience, whilst it can partly be what draws you to this podcast and to all of the work that my Tim and I are doing, I know that my lived experience can also make what I'm saying even more uncomfortable because you can't say, well, what the fuck does this bitch know?
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because please believe me, this particular bitch does know quite a bit about this topic.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't have a coach or a podcast or a blueprint or a community.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: I've just always been really fucking stubborn and curious and reflective and too interested in the victory to stay a victim.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's in the spirit of that that I say that if every difficult thing that happens to our children causes us to collapse, eventually our kids learn that they can't bring mum the hard stuff because mum just can't fucking cope with it.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I want our kids to think, at whatever age and stage they're at in their life, I want them to think, oh, this is feeling really big.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: I need mum.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: I know she'll be able to help me handle this.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I want our kids to think and feel.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: Not fuck, I can't tell mum, she'll fall apart and she's just going to become something else that I have to manage.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: But the reality is that we can't help our children.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: We can't co-regulate our children's nervous systems if we're falling apart.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean that regulation is resignation.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Eating dinner while our kids are spending time with the other parent is healthy.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean that we agree with the care arrangements.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean that we're not worrying about them.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Rather, it's making a commitment to our own health and well-being, which incidentally can also help how you're perceived by others, including court professionals, because rightly or wrongly, being underweight, not being physically nourished with food, with water, with sleep, all of those things can impact how you present and how you can be perceived for the simple fact that people who are doing well emotionally and mentally tend to look somewhat physically healthy.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoying a child-free Saturday does not mean that you agree with the family report.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: A number of clients over the years have told me that even though they didn't agree with the care arrangements, they started looking forward to having a bit of time to themselves.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: They made plans to catch up with friends.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: Some joined a gym, some started bushwalking, some started doing marathons of all things.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, I do not understand why someone would love doing a marathon.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I just have so much respect and admiration for the people that do.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'll be the one on the sidelines cheering you on and handing you the water.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: A good power walk is more my thing.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: Some started visiting their local bookshop.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: Some spent time in the Bunnings garden section and to their surprise found that working in their garden was really rewarding and healing.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: On my journey, I started collecting houseplants and still have quite the collection.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: Related to this is that feeling pleased that your child had a good time also doesn't invalidate your concerns.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: But spending every other weekend suffering doesn't help you or your child.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: The same as using emotion and nervous system regulation skills doesn't mean that you approve of what's happened to you or your kids.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Tolerating an outcome that you don't want doesn't mean that you stop advocating.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: Being regulated actually gives you greater access to your own thinking, in a large part because when our nervous systems are in survival mode, we lose access to our prefrontal cortex, to our ability to reason, to apply logic, to analyse benefits and risks, pros and cons.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: Growing our capacity actually protects and preserves our access to our knowledge and our ability to advocate effectively and credibly.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's one of the reasons why growing capacity matters so much on this journey.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: So if an extra overnight is proposed, notice whether your mind immediately begins with this will harm them, and then starts collecting evidence for that conclusion.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it will be, quote, harmful.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it won't.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe your child will struggle initially, but then adapt in a way that's developmentally appropriate and healthy.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they'll regress, maybe their behavior will be impacted.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe an existing concern will become much clearer, more obvious.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: Possible does not mean inevitable.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: Observe what actually happens, document what actually happens, respond to what actually happens.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: Don't jump to the conclusion today, don't manufacture tomorrow's evidence today.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: And there's another reason that all of this matters.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes parents believe their dysregulation answers a legal question that it doesn't necessarily answer.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: They might say, quote, if the kids spend five nights a fortnight with the other parent, I'm going to be traumatized.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, what does that mean within the legal framework?
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: Does your lawyer consider your psychological response relevant to the orders that are being discussed?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: What information does your lawyer specifically consider relevant and why?
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: Are they talking about ongoing family violence and your physical safety?
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: Are they talking about historical trauma and current functional impairment?
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: Your parenting capacity, your child's functioning, a combination of those things.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: Please do not guess.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Ask your fucking lawyer.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: Your legal team might perfectly understand that you were harmed during the course of the relationship.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: And they might still tell you that, in their view, the evidence that you have does not establish the parenting outcome that you think should follow from the harm that you experienced.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes the opposite happens.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: A parent can be so overwhelmed by the certainty of what their lawyer or their barrister is saying that they abandon everything that they understand about their own situation, their children, the facts without really understanding why.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that brings us to next week.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: In the last episode I told you to question familiar language.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: In today's episode I told you that your nervous system is not an oracle.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: Next week I'm coming for someone much more expensive, your legal team.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because your barrister isn't a fucking oracle either.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: To wrap up our conversation today, I want to say very clearly that trauma deserves compassion.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: It deserves safety, it deserves appropriate treatment and support.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: It deserves to be understood in context, but it doesn't require us to pretend that every trauma-driven conclusion is factually accurate.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: Our nervous system's adapted for a reason.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe that you are capable of more than spending the rest of your life organizing everything around avoiding being triggered or activated.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: Know what's happening.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: Grow your capacity to stay present enough to understand it.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Go where you actually have agency.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: Your child's job is to have a life and so is yours, whilst you're also becoming someone who can remain standing beside them while they live theirs.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes that starts with recognizing that the smoke alarm is real without appointing it as a fucking oracle.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes there's a fire, but oftentimes someone's just burned some toast.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's something else that I want to tell you before we go, particularly because of when I'm releasing this episode.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: This week, the post-separation parenting blueprint turns one.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: And when I was forward planning and scheduling episodes in advance, I did think, is this really the episode that I want to be releasing in the blueprint birthday week?
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because from a business perspective, telling your audience that their nervous system isn't an oracle and then inviting them to buy something is a very interesting marketing strategy.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I should have chosen something a little safer.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe something where everybody gets to finish the episode feeling thoroughly validated and absolutely certain that the Is somebody else?
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: Probably fewer email unsubscribes that way.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then I thought, no.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I'm going to invite you into the blueprint this week, again for those of you who haven't yet joined us inside the blueprint, then you should know what you're actually being invited into.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: And really, this is what you're buying when you work with Danielle Black Coaching.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you work with me or another coach on the team, or whether the blueprint is the only place that you work with us, you're not buying access to someone or something that will automatically agree with you.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: You're not buying a prettier version of what you already believe.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: You're buying the way that we work.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes what we have to say burns a little like a shot of whiskey.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it challenges you.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you'll hear something and immediately think, oh, fuck off, Danielle.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that's okay.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to agree with me.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I want you to just sit with something, to turn it over, to argue with it, to notice what it brings up in you, to chew on it for a while, to take what is useful, to test it against what you know, and maybe come back to it later with a slightly different perspective.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: I am not remotely interested in creating anything that leaves you exactly where you found me.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: It would be so much easier to offer less.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: It'd be so much easier to give ten-minute episodes that scratch the surface of enormously complicated issues, tell you that your instincts are always right, remind you that, quote, you've got this girl, give you three quick tips and send you on your way.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: In that way, I could simply have chosen to build an entire business around just making people feel better.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: But that's never been what excites me about this work.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: What excites me is watching what happens when people actually do the work, when they know more, when they can tolerate more complexity, when they stop needing every piece of information to confirm what they already think, when they become more discerning, more regulated, more accountable, more fucking credible, more capable of saying, actually, I think I might have got that bit wrong.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: More able to say, you know what?
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: This part belongs to me.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: More able to say that part over there absolutely fucking doesn't.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: To be more confident in what they know without needing to pretend that they know absolutely everything.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so much more able to advocate for themselves and their children without outsourcing their thinking to me, their lawyer, their psychologist, their barrister, Facebook, or anybody else.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: I've watched people who stick around and genuinely engage with this work become more thoughtful, more mature, more accountable, more capable, and ultimately more proud of who they are and how they've handled extraordinarily difficult circumstances.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that's transformation.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: And transformation is what we are in the business of here at Danielle Black Coaching.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: Not convincing you that you're right about everything, but helping you to become someone who doesn't need to be convinced that you're right about everything.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, I did briefly wonder whether releasing the your nervous system is not an oracle episode during the blueprint's first birthday week might piss a few people off.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then I realized that releasing something safer simply because I wanted to invite new people into the blueprint would be completely at odds with what the blueprint is.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'd rather show you the work, I'd rather be authentic about what you're actually buying, because offering less has just never been my thing.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're listening to this and have thought, fuck, I don't necessarily like everything that this chick's saying, but I really want to be able to think like this about my own situation, then perhaps the blueprint is exactly where you belong.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: And if you haven't yet joined us inside the blueprint but you're considering it or you've thought about it, or maybe you haven't yet thought about it, but now you're intrigued.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, now is the time.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: From midnight September 26, that's Australian Eastern Standard Time, until midnight on the 3rd of October.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: Again, that is Australian Eastern Standard Time.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: The blueprint, which has been almost$1,500 for quite a while now, is going to be going down to$8.99.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that is a saving of$598.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: But hey, the blueprint is going to turn one only once, and I am incredibly proud of not just the blueprint in general, but also what it's become over those past 12 months.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: The expansions, the additions, the growing audio library, the unlimited access to our digital coach AI Danielle.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: I won't take up more of your time talking about all of the things that make the blueprint amazing.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like a proud parent.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: We've all been there, haven't we?
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: Talking effusively about how wonderful our our children are.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: But quite genuinely, this is the resource that I wish that I had had when I was embarking on this journey.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: My goodness, I mean, if I had had access to anything that was even a fraction of what the blueprint is, it truly would have made such a difference to my journey, to my experience of my journey.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think to me being able to advocate for my child, I know that it would have made an incredible difference.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I created it, that's why I keep adding more to it.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's why we're turning each and every lesson into audio that can be accessed via a private podcast.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: And with that$8.99 birthday price, you get access to not only what's currently there, but also all of the additions, all of the expansions, all of the added content that, yes, I just I cannot seem to help myself.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not because the blueprint wasn't quote unquote complete when I first created it, but rather, you know, if you listen to this podcast, you know me.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a bit of a deep thinker.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: There are things that I just chew over when it comes to post-separation parenting, when it comes to the family law system.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: And quite naturally, I think, and quite rightly, there's information and resources that then come from that that has a very rightful place in the blueprint.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: It it very much is a living resource in the sense that, you know, it's not just one and done.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just, yes, this was created in 2025 and it's just going to stay static forever.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what this is.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: So if you would like to join us inside the blueprint, we'd love to have you.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: You can learn more by heading to the website Danielblackcoaching.com.au or going to the link in the show notes.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: And as I said, if you're wanting to join us inside the blueprint, please don't do so until midnight, September 26, Australian Eastern Standard Time, so that you can make the most of our first birthday.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know how much we love and appreciate you.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know that you are why I'm here.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: Why I'm regularly sitting at the microphone.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's you and your children and everything that you're wanting and striving to create for yourself and your children.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's why I do this work.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's why my team do what they do.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being here with me for this episode.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: I know we've discussed some things that have been challenging.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate your time and I really value the fact that you're willing to sit with different perspectives, that you're willing to consider different perspectives, that you're willing to apply different thinking to your own situation.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: That truly matters.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: I look forward to chatting with you again soon.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_00: And if you'd like to hear a bit of a dope beat, stick around for the birthday promotion outro.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's become quite apparent to me that I really should not be left unsupervised with any creative technology.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I had a fantastic time recording it and creating it.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope you enjoy listening to it as much as I enjoyed creating it.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: Talk soon.