Latest / Voddie Baucham Sermons / Voddie Baucham - TS&TT Theology, Worldview and Ethics

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Voddie Baucham - TS&TT Theology, Worldview and Ethics · Voddie Baucham Sermons

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  Speaker 1: Welcome to The Sword and Trial, The Sword and Trial's
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  Speaker 1: podcast of founders' ministries and founders' exists for the recovery
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  Speaker 1: of the gospel and the reformation of local churches. I'm
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  Speaker 1: Tom Askell.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm Graham Gundin.
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  Speaker 1: We're delighted to be joined today by our good friend,
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  Speaker 1: Votie Bauckham, all the way from Lusaka.
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  Speaker 2: That's especially for you.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: We do the sound effects when we have special guests here.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: I thought it was for a minute.
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  Speaker 1: We have the AC kick on at the right moment.
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  Speaker 1: It takes us a long time to do that. But
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  Speaker 1: we're glad to have Bodie with us. And we just
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  Speaker 1: want to talk to Bodie today about things going on
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  Speaker 1: in his life, some projects he's working on, some of
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  Speaker 1: the things that we'll be addressing at the Founders Conference,
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  Speaker 1: and just some of the issues that are going on
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  Speaker 1: in the world today, both in Lusaka as well as
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  Speaker 1: here in Cape Coral, Florida. Before we do that, let
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  Speaker 1: me mention that we've got a pre-sale going on in
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  Speaker 1: two of our books. One is a primer on conflict,
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  Speaker 1: and the other is this one by Jim Renahan that
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  Speaker 1: we've waited for a long time. It's called To the
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Judicious and Impartial Reader. It is an exposition of the
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  Speaker 1: 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith. There's nothing like it.
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  Speaker 1: Jim is, I think, the world's leading expert on that document,
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  Speaker 1: and these are his more mature thoughts on it. And
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  Speaker 1: so you can order this, both of these books pre-order
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  Speaker 1: right now and deep discount. But when you order Jim's book,
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  Speaker 1: you'll also get automatically and immediately an ebook version of
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: it as well. We look forward to shipping these books
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  Speaker 1: very soon. In fact, we got good news from the
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: printer just yesterday about when these books might be available.
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  Speaker 1: So take advantage of those. And if you are benefiting
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: from the sword and trial, we would appreciate if you
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  Speaker 1: subscribe to us on the different platforms where you might
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: listen to us and send this episode around to other
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: people as well. So, Vody, welcome to Southwest Florida, brother.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you. It is good to be back.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, man, it's great to have you back. And you've
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  Speaker 1: been pretty busy over the last year with writing and
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  Speaker 1: things that you're doing at the African Christian University. So
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  Speaker 1: why don't we start off by just telling us how
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  Speaker 1: are things going at ACU?
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  Speaker 2: You know, things are going well. It continues to be
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  Speaker 2: an uphill battle in a number of ways. The most
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  Speaker 2: difficult thing that we've been dealing with is is the
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  Speaker 2: accreditation process, you know, and dealing with accreditation that is
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  Speaker 2: done by the federal government itself. That's been a real
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  Speaker 2: challenge and a real opportunity as well. You know, we're
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  Speaker 2: a classical Christian liberal arts, you know, university. And that's
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  Speaker 2: something that, you know, sort of makes people cock their
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  Speaker 2: heads anywhere. But, you know, there as well. And so
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  Speaker 2: we've been able to, sort of advocate for that and
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  Speaker 2: continue to, to fight, to hold onto that. And, uh,
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  Speaker 2: it's been good. We had graduation just a few weeks
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  Speaker 2: ago and, uh, that was excellent. We had a number of, uh,
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  Speaker 2: I think three more, three or four more graduates with,
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  Speaker 2: with BAs. That's great. And, um, you know, I think
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  Speaker 2: they were, I think this year they were all from
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  Speaker 2: the business school. Um, and then we also had our
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  Speaker 2: first graduating class, uh, from the master's program in the
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  Speaker 2: School of Divinity. So that was exciting as well, you know,
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  Speaker 2: to have those gentlemen graduate with their MA in pastoral theology. So, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: it's been good, and we've seen some fruit.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: That's wonderful.
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  Speaker 1: How long has ACU been going now?
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  Speaker 2: Six years. Six years. Wow. It's been going for six
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  Speaker 2: years now. Praise God. That's wonderful.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I look forward to our first graduates with the
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  Speaker 1: Institute of Public Theology. You know, we're a few years
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  Speaker 1: away from that.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Man, we're on the pathway, and it's exciting every time
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  Speaker 1: we take another step. And you're here to teach a
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  Speaker 1: course for IOPT. Tell us about the course and what
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  Speaker 1: you're going to be covering.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, the course is called Theology, Worldview, and Ethics. And
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  Speaker 2: interestingly enough, it involves Dr. Renahan's book there. And basically
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  Speaker 2: what we do is we look at a biblical worldview,
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  Speaker 2: and then we take a biblical worldview and apply that
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  Speaker 2: biblical worldview to to ethics, but we look at ethics
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  Speaker 2: from a reformed theological perspective. And we take the Decalogue
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  Speaker 2: and make the Decalogue the foundation for practical ethics. We
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  Speaker 2: use the Westminster's Larger Catechism and the Second London Baptist
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  Speaker 2: Confession in order to sort of put that together and
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  Speaker 2: learn how to think through things from a biblical perspective,
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  Speaker 2: learn how to understand the law, right? The threefold division
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  Speaker 2: of the law, the three uses of the law, and
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  Speaker 2: then take that and look at practical ways that we
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  Speaker 2: then apply the Decalogue and build practical, personal ethics from that. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: that's wonderful.
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  Speaker 3: Do you utilize any case studies, things like that, to
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  Speaker 3: help show practically how it works for the ministry in life?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, we absolutely do. You know, one of the things
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  Speaker 2: that's interesting, You know, when I teach, I developed this
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  Speaker 2: class really for ACU, and it's part of our core curriculum.
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  Speaker 2: And one of the things that I use to help
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  Speaker 2: the students think through it is the fact that, you know,
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  Speaker 2: in Lusaka, most people walk wherever they go, right? But
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  Speaker 2: there are very few sidewalks for people to walk on. And,
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  Speaker 2: you know, so people are, you know, killed and maimed
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  Speaker 2: injured by cars all the time just walking around. And
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  Speaker 2: so we look at the sixth commandment, you shall not
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  Speaker 2: commit murder. And we look at the way that the
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  Speaker 2: Westminster Lodge Catechism sort of fleshes that out because what
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  Speaker 2: they're doing is they're looking at this commandment and they're
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  Speaker 2: looking at, you know, from a biblical theological perspective, all
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  Speaker 2: of the things the Bible has to say, right, about
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  Speaker 2: human life and protecting human life and so on and
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  Speaker 2: so forth. And then you sort of build an understanding
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  Speaker 2: of what that commandment is pointing at, what it commands
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  Speaker 2: and what it forbids. And one of the things that
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  Speaker 2: we eventually get to is that if we as Christians
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  Speaker 2: within that culture really believe God's word and really hold
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  Speaker 2: to and value human life the way the sixth commandment
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  Speaker 2: teaches that we ought to value human life, then The
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  Speaker 2: bottom line is ACU ought to be a school that
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  Speaker 2: produces students who build sidewalks. And it's just a real
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  Speaker 2: practical way for people to see, you know, sort of
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  Speaker 2: what it means to do what we're trying to equip
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  Speaker 2: them to do with this class.
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  Speaker 1: One of the problems I see so often in contemporary
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  Speaker 1: evangelicalism is the separation of ethics from theology.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: As if you can talk about how to live if
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  Speaker 1: you don't know what life is, who is living, and
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  Speaker 1: even the... 2023 National Founders Conference, What is Man? We're
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  Speaker 1: trying to address that because we've seen the nonsense go
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  Speaker 1: on in our culture, and Christians kind of get played
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  Speaker 1: along with it and don't want to say anything that
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  Speaker 1: would be offensive. It's because we've lost our theological foundation.
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  Speaker 1: We're not connecting the dots.
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  Speaker 3: You can't have ethics without transcendent realities, and you can't
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  Speaker 3: know transcendent realities or study transcendent realities unless you utilize theology.
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  Speaker 1: It's just not possible. And the Ten Commandments, same thing.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, these are not arbitrary commandments. This is a
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  Speaker 1: transcript of God's own character, the God who created us,
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  Speaker 1: the God who defines what a man is and what
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  Speaker 1: right is, what wrong is. And, yeah, to see all
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  Speaker 1: that come together, I mean, this is a great opportunity.
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  Speaker 1: It's right in the heart of what IOPT is about
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  Speaker 1: and what you're doing over at ACU as well. So
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  Speaker 1: delighted that you're here teaching that.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Me too.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So tell us about Fault Lines, man. I mean, it's
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  Speaker 1: continued to just sell. I talked to one of the
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  Speaker 1: men in our church just a few days ago that
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  Speaker 1: he had given a copy of it to his dad
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  Speaker 1: who had read it with great profit and appreciated it tremendously,
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  Speaker 1: wanted to know what he could read next. And You're
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  Speaker 1: working on another book now, but you've also got some
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  Speaker 1: things coming out, right, with Fault Lines that can make
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  Speaker 1: it more user friendly. So tell us about that.
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  Speaker 2: We have a video curriculum coming out that people can
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  Speaker 2: use to sort of go through it.
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  Speaker 1: Are you teaching on the video? I am. All right.
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  Speaker 2: I am teaching on the video curriculum. You know, we've
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  Speaker 2: made some adjustments. I didn't read the audio book to
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  Speaker 2: the consternation of many. And my response when people ask me,
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  Speaker 2: you know, why I didn't read the audio book is,
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  Speaker 2: you know, we We couldn't afford me. But on the
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  Speaker 2: video curriculum, yes, I am on the video curriculum. Good.
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  Speaker 2: And we just hope that it will help people to
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  Speaker 2: sort of slow down and walk through this. So if
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  Speaker 2: they've read the book and profited from the book and
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  Speaker 2: would like to help others, this is just a way
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  Speaker 2: that they can do that and a way that churches
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  Speaker 2: can maybe... have conversations about this and think through it.
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  Speaker 1: That's great. And you're working on another book, right?
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  Speaker 2: I am. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So, uh, tell us what that book's about and then
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  Speaker 1: tell us the title of that book.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, the book is about this whole same sex marriage fiasco. Yeah. Uh,
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  Speaker 2: and the title of it is the working title is
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: it's not like being black. You know, one of the
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  Speaker 2: main arguments that people have made for so-called marriage equality
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  Speaker 2: is is they've gone to, you know, Loving versus Virginia, right?
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  Speaker 2: And the anti-miscegenation laws, you know, and, basically said that,
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  Speaker 2: you know, the same way that the law used to
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  Speaker 2: prohibit people from marrying because they were different races, the
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  Speaker 2: same way that that was immoral and eventually became illegal,
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  Speaker 2: we ought to think about people of the same sex
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  Speaker 2: marrying in the same way. And in order to advance that,
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  Speaker 2: there has been this concerted effort to conflate so-called sexual
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  Speaker 2: orientation with race. Gay is the New Black was the
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  Speaker 2: title of a very popular article in The Advocate, which
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  Speaker 2: is the leading gay magazine, news, whatever. And that really
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  Speaker 2: is the tack that people have been taking. And so
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  Speaker 2: I'm just sort of addressing that directly. And not only that,
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  Speaker 2: but just taking a look at the trajectory of where
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  Speaker 2: we've gone with this. It's interesting. I first, the first
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  Speaker 2: proposal I wrote for this book, I think was in 2008. Wow.
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  Speaker 2: And nobody wanted to touch it in 2008. So when
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  Speaker 2: I started working on this book, it was a book
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  Speaker 2: warning people about what would happen if we allowed same
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  Speaker 2: sex marriage to be legalized. And now all these years later,
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  Speaker 2: I finally found a publisher for the book and, and
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: we're on the other side of it. And so now
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  Speaker 2: we're looking back at, you know, what happened and where
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  Speaker 2: we go from here. Cause unfortunately for a lot of people, uh,
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  Speaker 2: they see this as, okay, it's done. The law is here.
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  Speaker 2: Let's move on. But beyond that, it's, It's done. The
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  Speaker 2: law is here. Let's move on and let's get with
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  Speaker 2: the times. Absolutely. Yep. And so Christians are now accepting
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  Speaker 2: same-sex marriage, not just as something that has been legalized,
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  Speaker 2: but as something that because it's been legalized is also
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  Speaker 2: now moral and ethical.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And should be accepted and celebrated.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's inevitable. I mean, the so-called Respect for
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  Speaker 1: Marriage Act.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: To see some evangelical writers talk about David French, I mean,
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  Speaker 1: it just grieved me. I've quit listening to him a
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  Speaker 1: long time ago with any sense of hope to be
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  Speaker 1: guided by him. But him talking about the number of
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  Speaker 1: families that would be broken apart, you know, these wonderful
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  Speaker 1: families would be broken apart if this were to be overturned.
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  Speaker 1: And I hate that thought. that we are being moved
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  Speaker 1: to think of this as inevitable. This is just the
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  Speaker 1: way of the world. This is the way things are going.
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  Speaker 2: No, no. I mean, Roe v.
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  Speaker 1: Wade was declared by the Supreme Court to be law
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  Speaker 1: of the land. And by God's grace, we're able to
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  Speaker 1: overturn that.
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  Speaker 2: And I think Christians- And think about how many people
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  Speaker 2: started treating that like it was just inevitable. Exactly. Think
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  Speaker 2: about how hard it became to get people motivated to
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  Speaker 2: be part of the pro-life movement. once they accepted that
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  Speaker 2: as inevitable. And I think that's happening even more rapidly
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  Speaker 2: with the same-sex marriage movement.
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  Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting. We're on the eve of the
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  Speaker 3: Founders Conference. You guys are going to be doing a
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  Speaker 3: pre-conference on Christian nationalism. And your point in which you
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  Speaker 3: said that, you know, once it became law, we started
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  Speaker 3: to say, let's get past it. But then it's become
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  Speaker 3: more than that. Let's get past it. Let's just kind
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  Speaker 3: of accept it in its ethical dimension.
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  Speaker 2: And celebrate it.
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  Speaker 3: And celebrate it. And it reminds me of, again, this
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  Speaker 3: use of the law as teacher and even subservient to
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  Speaker 3: the gospel that as a society has laws which reflect
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  Speaker 3: the eternal moral law of God, that society becomes, you know,
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  Speaker 3: convinced of proper ethics. And when they're convinced of proper ethics,
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  Speaker 3: that makes fertile soil for the gospel to go forth
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  Speaker 3: and be planted because they have a sense of what
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  Speaker 3: is right and wrong. They have a sense that they
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  Speaker 3: themselves are guilty before a holy God and the gospel
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  Speaker 3: can come in and show them the way of salvation
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  Speaker 3: in Christ. And so it's so important, I think, for
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  Speaker 3: Christians who have any sort of say over politics of
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  Speaker 3: their land, any sort of say over what happens in
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  Speaker 3: their own nations, to actually advocate for not just for
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  Speaker 3: moral laws, but actually advocate for Christian laws. I think
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  Speaker 3: it has to do a lot with the whole Christian
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  Speaker 3: nationalist discussion.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point. And the law does have
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  Speaker 1: a pedagogical nature to it. And I think we've lost
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  Speaker 1: that probably as much as the law being a rule
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  Speaker 1: of life for Christians in the evangelical world today. And
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  Speaker 1: if you think about it, we ought to be, and
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  Speaker 1: we are, for evangelism. But when you look at guys
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  Speaker 1: like David Brainerd, what did Brainerd do when he went
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: to evangelize the American Indians. He taught them the Ten Commandments.
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  Speaker 1: He taught them the Ten Commandments. And once they got
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  Speaker 1: the Ten Commandments, he taught them the gospel so that
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  Speaker 1: they understood that they had broken the commandments and they
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  Speaker 1: need to be reconciled to the God against whom they
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  Speaker 1: have sinned, whose law he has broken.
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  Speaker 2: And we've just missed it. So you know what you
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  Speaker 2: need to be saved from. Exactly. And why. If there
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  Speaker 2: is no law that you've transgressed, then why do you
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: need savings?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. And so having lost that, now we've
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  Speaker 1: got this $ 100 million campaign that's all over the media.
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  Speaker 2: He gets us.
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  Speaker 1: That's what evangelism has been reduced to. You've got a
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  Speaker 1: Savior who is an immigrant. We've got a Savior who
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  Speaker 1: knows what it was to be outcast. And he gets us.
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  Speaker 1: And so he can identify with you and let him
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  Speaker 1: identify with you.
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  Speaker 2: And the whole idea of salvation. You are the heart
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  Speaker 2: of the gospel. That's right. I know. Not Christ. You
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  Speaker 2: are the heart of the gospel. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So, man, your course is just going to be timely.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: It's wonderful. And encourage folks, if you're not familiar with IOPT,
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: go to instituteofpublictheology.org. Learn about it. You can audit courses.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: We're recording these, so they'll be available as well for
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: folks that want to take that. So, in your new book,
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: you're dealing with this whole issue that now we're seeing
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: in our rearview mirror. A few years ago, we could
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: have anticipated or should have anticipated some things happening.
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  Speaker 2: But it's also.
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  Speaker 1: branched out far beyond what probably you could have imagined
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  Speaker 1: in 2008. Yeah. Because we've got this whole LGBTQ agenda.
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  Speaker 1: We've got drag queen story, our agenda. And it just
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  Speaker 1: seems like, and it's all part.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's, it's just another box car in the social
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  Speaker 2: justice train. Yeah. Once you understand that, that this is
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  Speaker 2: critical theory, right. That, that this is neo-Marxism. Um, then
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  Speaker 2: you understand that in that worldview, this worldview that divides
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  Speaker 2: everything into categories of oppressors and oppressed, this worldview is atheistic, materialistic,
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  Speaker 2: and does not believe that there is absolute truth or
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  Speaker 2: absolute morality. And so morality comes from whoever is the
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  Speaker 2: hegemonic power, right? You know, this hegemonic power creates a morality,
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  Speaker 2: usually uses religion in order to create that morality. And
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  Speaker 2: that morality is just the tool through which they oppress
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  Speaker 2: people who are not members of the in-group. And so
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  Speaker 2: it's not just, you know, white people. It's white, male, heterosexual, cisgendered, able-bodied,
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  Speaker 2: you know, native born, you know, and when you get
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  Speaker 2: down to the bottom of it, Christian, right? And so
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  Speaker 2: you see these oppression wheels. I don't know if you've
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: seen these oppression wheels where, you know, they have concentric
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  Speaker 2: circles and, you know, on the inside of the circle
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  Speaker 2: is the power position and on the outside of the
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  Speaker 2: circle is the oppressed position. And so on the ethnic
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  Speaker 2: category or racial category, it will have you know, white
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  Speaker 2: people and then on the end of it, you know,
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  Speaker 2: on the inside of the, or the people of color
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  Speaker 2: or the oppressed. Well, it's the same thing when it
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  Speaker 2: comes to so-called sexual minorities, which again, that's a novel term, right?
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  Speaker 2: Sexual minorities. What does that mean? Sexual minorities. Well, that's
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  Speaker 2: this neo-Marxist ideology. Traditionally, it's meant perversion. Yeah. That's this
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: neo-Marxist ideology. So when you understand it that way, you
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: understand that what we're dealing with is a further advance
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: of this neo-Marxist ideology. And it's really interesting because it's
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: sort of morphed over the years and continues, you know,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: to morph into stranger and stranger things all the time.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: And it's, it's a parasite.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: It gloms onto anything and everything. So knitting clubs aren't immune.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: Bicycle clubs aren't immune. Churches aren't immune. And it, One
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: of the things that we've got to do as Christian
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: leaders is wake up and recognize what is at play.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: Because it'll take some good things like sex abuse, which
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: obviously horrible. We need to deal with sex abuse. We
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: need to care for victims. We need to put perpetrators
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: in jail. That's a wonderful and a right good thing
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: for Christians to think about. But whenever that gets... brought
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: into critical theory, it becomes weaponized so that the gospel
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: that is proclaimed by those who are banging the drum
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: the loudest is a gospel of grievance. It's not the
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: gospel of grace. And man, we are seeing that in
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: spades today, not just in that area, but in other
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: areas as well. And it all comes back to this
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: whole idea, this Marxist agenda of critical theory, which is
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: committed to deconstruction.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: Right. And the other thing that we need to keep
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: in mind, this is is what we need to do.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: We don't have to do rocket science on this, just
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: simple arithmetic. If the argument is that gay is the
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: new black, if the argument is that sexual orientation is
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: akin to somebody's race or ethnicity, and then we take
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: that argument and we say that it's wrong to discriminate
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: against same-sex couples who want to get married to the
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: same degree and for the same reason that it's wrong
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: to discriminate against, you know, inter-ethnic couples who want to
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: get married, then how long do we think religious exemptions
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: are going to stand? Do you think that, you know,
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: that the culture would accept a religious exemption for people to,
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: let's say, not do weddings of a white person and
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: a brown person? Do we think that the culture would
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: look at that religious exemption and say, oh, yeah, that's
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: perfectly fine? Well, if this equation over here is what
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: I said that it is, then we cannot expect for
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: long For religious exemptions on this issue either. Right. It's
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: already deemed an immoral act and will eventually be deemed
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: an illegal act.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: I've heard of emails being sent to pastors and churches saying, hey,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: you know, my family wants to come to church. Will
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: we be accepted? Or me and my future spouse want
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: to get married. Can we talk to you about this?
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: And what it is, it's homosexuals or LGBT. It's a setup.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: They're trying to get them to expose them. And you're
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: going to be made to care. You're not going to
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: escape this battle. We are in it. And we need
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: to have our eyes wide open and become rock-ribbed solid
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: about what the Bible says, what it doesn't say, and
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: take our stand and be willing to take the hits
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: because they're coming.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's like that age-old question. What do you call
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: a person in a fight who doesn't know it? The loser.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And I know it's difficult for a lot
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: of Christians because we love peace and we don't want
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: to be out there warring all the time. And, you know,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: I get that. I'm very much there. These are people
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: who are at war with us. That's right.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: They're at war with our God. They're at war with
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: our gospel. And, you know, at the end of the day,
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: the big bad wolf, the evil hegemonic power in the
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: Western world, It's Christianity. I mean, at the end of
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: the day, it's the church that's the enemy of this
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: modern movement. And that's kind of what I was screaming
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: at the top of my lungs when I was running
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: fault lines. Don't miss this. Don't miss the fact that
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: this is part of an ideology. You throw out a
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: bunch of stuff that people are happy to grab onto
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: and be a part of, But what that does is
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: it causes them to miss the ideology and the perspective
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: from which people are coming. Yeah.
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: I think what a lot of maybe leaders in the
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: broader evangelical world would say is, you know, we can't
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: be people who are known more for what we're against
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: than what we're for. And we are called to love
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: these people as Jesus loves sinners. And we're called to
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: love our enemies even if they are at war with us.
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: All those things are true.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely.
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: But we're not just trying to protect ourselves against the
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: predations of others who would seek to harm us. We're
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: trying to protect ourselves and our neighbors. We're trying to
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: protect ourselves and our families. We're trying to protect ourselves
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: and our churches and other churches and people in our churches.
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: And so it's not just a kind of a self-defense
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: posture that we're taking, but it's a defense of what
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: is true, what is right, what is beautiful, and a
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: defense of of others who are innocent, who are being, um,
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: abused by people who hold to these ideologies.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think that's a cop out to this
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: whole idea of being known more for what we're against
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: than what we're for. People know what we're for, right?
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, for thousands of years, people have
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: known what we're for. There's, there's no doubt about what
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: we're for when people are saying that it's a cop out. Um,
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: And when people are... It's either a cop-out or it's
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: a weapon, right? It's a weapon that is used by
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: those people who want to continue to force us to
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: cower in a corner and apologize for everything, right? We'll
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: never apologize enough until the gospel has been eradicated, right?
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: And so... No, I don't buy that. And I'm not
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: worried about that. If people are warring against God and
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: warring against his Christ, and they're warring against me because
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: I am a child of God and a follower of Christ, well,
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: in that context, you need to know me for what
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: I'm against. And I make no bones about that.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, look what they did to our master.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: So why should we be surprised and I think it
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: was Luther who made a statement similar to this, that
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: you can't just say yes, you've got to say no.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: You've got to.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: Have an antithesis as well as that which you affirm
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: that you believe. And when I teach preaching, when I
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: think about preaching myself, I talk about being discriminating in
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: application because you can preach in a way where you
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: say true things and it doesn't do any good. You know,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: you're just affirming things. You're saying things you You can
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: be faithful to the text even in many ways, but
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: you haven't drawn out the implications. And it's like saying, okay,
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: to discriminate in preaching, this is a horse and this
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: is a cow. And the cow is not the horse
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: and the horse is not the cow. And if you
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: don't start doing that, if you just talk about, hey,
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: this is a horse and we all got horses and
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: we need our horses, somebody rides in on a cow,
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: they're thinking, oh, okay, I'm on a horse. No, when
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: you say, no, no, no, you're on a cow, it's
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: not a horse, that's when they get upset with you.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Right, exactly.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: And that's exactly what we need though is to help
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: people understand to get in the right way of thinking
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: and living.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, you know, to go back to your,
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: your point about those people who say, you know, we
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: ought to be known more for, you know, for what
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: we're for than what we're against. Those are some of
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: the same people who will chide us for being confessional.
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Right.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Cause being confessional is about being clear about what
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: we're for. Right. And so there are people who condemn
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: you for always being against something and then condemn you.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: for being confessional, right? So which is it? Because when
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: I'm confessional, I want you to know what I'm for.
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: Just shut up.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly. Yeah, that's true. Well, Vody, it's great to
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: have you here with us, brother. Always delighted to see you,
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: look forward to your ministry, your teaching, and I want
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: to continue to pray for you. Glad to see you
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: being healthy as well and how God's continuing to give
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: you strength and restore you there. So if you want
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: to know more about what's going on with Voti in ACU,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: you can go to the ACU website. Do you have
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: that memorized?
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: What is that? You can go to acu-usa.com.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: Or acudivinity.com.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: Okay. Either one of those. And then for the Voti
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: Bauckham Ministries, where do you find information on that? VotiBauckham.org. Okay.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: So it's easy. Easy to go there.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: And again, for the Institute of Public Theology, go to instituteofpublictheology.org.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: And we'd be glad to hear from you. Any way
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: we can serve you, let us know. And if this
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: episode has been helpful to you, then share it with
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: others and like it and encourage others to subscribe to
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: The Sword and Trowel. Until next time, glad to have
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: you with us.