Latest / WHAT I'VE LEARNT / What I've Learnt - Lisa Bolte (Australian Ballet)

Transcript

What I've Learnt - Lisa Bolte (Australian Ballet) · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, who hasn't swooned watching Ballet Swan Lake?
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: And recently I saw Romeo and Juliet.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: So breathtaking.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now the feature ballet at the Australian Ballet at the NGV.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Lisa Balti is one of those rare talented people whose life as a principal ballet dancer has taken her across the globe.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Mesmerising audiences with her stunning and elegant performances, she is truly a national treasure.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Lisa danced with the Australian Ballet Company from 1986 to 2002 and then again in 2007, and was promoted to principal artist by the revered artistic director Maina Gilgwood.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Highlights with the Australian Ballet have included performing principal roles from the entire classical repertoire, including the mentioned Swan Lake, the Sleeping Beauty, Giselle, Romeo and Juliet, La Selfide, Ramonda, Don Quixote, Maynon, Anna Karenina, and the list goes on: some of the most beautiful ballets to ever be created.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: As a guest artist, Lisa performed with Mureev's Farewell Australian Tour in the 90s and with the National Ballet of Canada in Swan Lake and the Merry Widow.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: In 1998, Lisa was awarded the Mo Award for the Best Female Dancer after her performances in Rome and Juliet.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: She really is quite an extraordinary dancer and is revered across the ballet world.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Assistant to Maynard Gilgword in staging and coaching Giselle for the Boston Ballet is another one of her highlights.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Working in philanthropy as patron manager at the Australian Ballet up until 2016, the role included leading tours for Renaissance to Tasmania, New York, and Houston.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Currently, she's the Southern Chapter Chair of the Australian Ballet Foundation Board.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, she now shares her knowledge learned through years of being coached by wonderful artists herself, mentoring full-time ballet students in Melbourne.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm pretty excited to have her join me on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we're going to learn quite a bit about this fascinating world of ballet, which often we don't get to see a lot of behind the scenes.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd like to welcome the beautiful and talented Lisa Bossi to the What I've Learned Podcast.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, hello, Deb.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, what and what good company I'm in.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the ballet.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: The ballet's been my absolute world.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's 15 years this year since I actually hung up my ballet shoes.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: So a long lot of water.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: You look so young.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: You look so young.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I'm like, oh, that's 15 years ago.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's really quite incredible, isn't it?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because I suppose you started, let's go back to when you did start.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Talent and discipline are two core strokes that come to mind when you're successful as you are.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to me a little bit about when you first knew ballet was your future and your passion and how it grew.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's you wouldn't believe it.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's very different to a lot of other careers and jobs, but maybe more aligned to some of the sports careers where you know these young talented sportsmen start to dream at the age of seven.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: And well, I was just that.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: I started to dream of dancing.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: We actually lived on Stratbrook Island in Queensland, and my dad was working regrowing all the forests after they'd been mined, and uh we were just in a miners' cottage there, and I started to talk about learning ballet, and and you know, mum and dad wanted more for us as children and wanted to give us the you know the opportunities that Australia had at that time in the 1970s, and so um dad inquired with Queensland Ballet to see if there was any way they could send a teacher over to Strabroke Island, but of course that was you know impossible.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: So in our around 1970, I must have been 197 sort of five, is five or six, we moved to the mainland and and I began my little um journey with ballet, and you know, right from that very first class, that first year, I loved it.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: I loved everything about the movement, you know, waltzing to music, learning party polka, hearing we danced to the blue Danube.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: I still can remember the music I danced to in my very first concert, and and it set the seed for my life.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: I really, I knew that you know this is what I wanted to do, and and then just worked.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: A couple of years later, um mum put me into a school that she thought would give me more, you know, more of the discipline, more of the really intense um quality training of ballet.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I then went from to Capri's Dancing School, a really beautiful uh ballet school in Queensland, um, in the Redlands area, and learnt with Margaret Lucas and Janish now.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And right until I left home at um at the age I was just turning 16 when I got a place with the Australian Ballet School.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's a really beautiful story, and I particularly like the way that your parents made obviously quite a big move to support you.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that actually is quite a pivotal part of the story because really you can't you can't you need to start ballet early.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't have the parental support or somebody's support to do that, it becomes quite difficult, doesn't it?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because really, had your parents not made that decision and seen your talent or your ability or your passion, then you would have been on Stradbroke Island, as beautiful as that is, which we all agree, it it's quite remote.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: And there certainly wouldn't have been a ballet school.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, how much of that do you put down to your parents supporting your your journey?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, so much, so much so, Deb.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: I I couldn't have done it both my parents in their individual ways.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, mum was of course the one that, you know, she drove me to all my lessons.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: She made all my ballet costumes, my sisters, and for a while my brother learned.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, she made maybe 30 costumes a year, and she'd often make other children's as well for the concerts, and you know, she really they're divine.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: I've just had an exhibition up in Queensland where I I lived, and we were able to um you know find some of those costumes, and they're still in immaculate condition.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, so mum, you know, mum did all of that, and she was she was really um you know just very grounded and and and then dad was the the the force where you know he was so positive about me dancing, and he he he used to um you know see me dancing around the house and I'd always have this music on, and he'd see me sort of making up stories to to beautiful music.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and I know when he was when I was young, you know, we we used to go to people's places, and you know, dad in all his innocence and he they were only 21 when they had me, so they're quite young parents.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Very young, very young.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they and he used to say, you know, to to my uncle or to to to close friends, he's just like, you know, she's going to do it, she's got the talent.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, whether I really, you know, did at that age or but to have your father believe in you like that was just such a gift, you know, because he he, you know, you I you of course hear those things, and then my uncle over the years he used to say, you know, your dad used to say you had the talent.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: We used to laugh at that because how could you know that a 10-year-old had the talent?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: And uh but you know, that's cool.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then it carried right through, Deb.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: It was very grounded, you know.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: I was a very um just a normal Aussie kid.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: I had the you know, the my three brothers and sisters, and we just, you know, we played out the back in the garden, and you know, we went on two-week holidays to my grandparents.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: It was a very normal Aussie life, and and they they supported me, you know, with my dream.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I got that position at the Australian Ballet School to leave Queensland and fly to Melbourne to set up in an apartment in Melbourne at 16 with you know, three kids that I did barely knew, and uh, but they supported me with that, but you know, both with the the monetary support, but really, you know, they were there every week to to talk to me on the phone once a week, and they they had mum had written this beautiful little book of you know, just little sayings, things to how to behave when things are hard difficult, how to, you know, have confidence in your friends, you know, choose your friends well and have confidence that they're they're going to be there with you and trust your family, you know, just little things that really I could follow my life by.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: And mum and dad, you know, they they didn't, you know, they weren't because of the younger brothers and sisters, they weren't able to come down all the time.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: But for the really important things, like mum came to see me dance at Covent Garden when I was 21, and I'm sure she did.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't be missed that to the world.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's pretty impressive.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Auntie, they flew to um they flew to London to see me dance the lead role with Stephen Heathcote in um The Sleeping Beauty when the company was on tour there in 1988, and then and then another time my dad, you know, I was opening doing my first opening night of Swan Lake, and my dad flew to Melbourne and and he sort of he flew down and he called me, and I was in the dressing room.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: I was always in the dressing room preparing very early for a show, you know.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: You'd get in for a show around, he'd finish rehearsals around three-ish in the day, and then you'd you'd start preparing for that show around 4:30.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And and dad, I got the call from him down in the dressing room at the State Theatre, and he's he's like, Lise, um, I'm here.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: I just wondered, I've got my suit, my dinner suit, but I can I wear my riding boots?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just like, Oh, just oh my god, your parents sound so beautiful and so there's a really beautiful.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I were there five of you.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: There were four of us, actually.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Four of you, right?
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: And and my mum and dad, so six of us all together.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I mean, everything that you're describing just shows how pivotal they were to your journey, but also that beautiful little authentic them trying to make sure that you know that he wears the suit with the right shoes and and to be there at the things that matter, because you were actually quite young, and also it takes a lot of courage, I know as a parent, and you'd be the same, to let your 16-year-old go and you know, set up in Melbourne with three, as you say, people you didn't know.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: But that must mean that they had a lot of trust and faith in you and that your core values were sturdy enough to be able to sustain that journey.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think so.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, along the way, it wasn't an easy journey that very first year at 16.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: It was so difficult, you know, you're training in a whole new way, and it was wonderful training, but at the time, you suddenly, you know, you've been a big fish in Queensland, you know, with all your your friends, and and and then you come down to Melbourne, and suddenly I was with the most talented young dance students in the whole of Australia, and that was overwhelming in itself.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then my teacher, who was was brilliant at the time, it was a lot of new new parts of dancing, and and really looking into yourself that it was a different different way of learning, and that was very confronting.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I used to have you know two hours, five of us on a Friday afternoon, coaching, and literally every time I'd go to move, she'd sort of say, No, you know, every Friday afternoon for a whole year I was virtually in tears because you know I just felt like you know, I was not moving forward.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: But funnily enough, that persistence thing in life where you just you just keep doing your homework, you keep listening, you keep trying to do what your teacher says.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: And slowly, slowly, you know, I I gradually, you know, with my parents' support, um, you know, Mum had encouraged me to go back each semester after after a holiday, and she'd sort of said, you know, just try and stay to the end of the year and just try and she gave me all these little you know, little pinnacle things to get to get through to the next point.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and then it came to the end of the year, and my favourite thing has always been performing.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: I just love performing, and we all had to audition for this ballet um graduation ball, and they actually let the very first year students audition for the lead roles, and by chance I gained one of those roles for the for the lead roles.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like not by chance, but by absolutely hard work and focus and discipline.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: It was hard work, and but you know, I I just it's like anything when you feel that you're doing something that you love and performing was something that I love, and I had a character to throw myself into.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: And like you say, um, you know, you saw Romeo and Juliet just last week, and the Australian ballet, you know, are performing that at the moment for the first time after 19 years, and it's a ballet that every every dancer of the Australian ballet and many around the world, that is the ballet to dance.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of the great works, and um and you know, you I loved it when you could throw yourself into a role and something like De Juliet or something where you can be a character.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: A Giselle, you know, which is also beautiful, you know, which I know you've also done dance.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you can study the character and you can you can read books, you can you can read history books that are similar to the time that that you were in, and you can you can listen in depth to the music and get the phrasing just right.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, that was always just so interesting, my whole career.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, you got better and better as you evolved in your career.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: Perhaps as a young dancer, I took a lot of notes.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I used to always write myself notes leading up into the performance.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I've got quite detailed notes of you know the week before preparations for my role, uh, what I'm reading, what I'm what I'm delving into, um, the music, and then right as far as you know, what I'm going to do on the day of my performance.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd I'd delve into you know what I what I do for rehearsals, what sort of notes I'd I'd I'd need to do on stage just before I go on stage and and warm up and what time I'll do my hair.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it sounds very um particular.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: No, it sounds actually very particular, but also I don't think people fully appreciate.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: And what you've just outlined is really fascinating to me.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: The level of discipline, yes, which is evident, but also the multi-layering of a cultural immersion in the story, the history, the notes are a reflection of your research.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure that people fully appreciate just how complex taking on that role is.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just a matter of being disciplined in a dancer that's amazing and beautiful, but actually having a sensitivity and a an enculturation of sorts.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Is that which I find really quite an eye-opener?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I sort of felt, you know, from a young age, it was what I loved about dancing was actually the storytelling.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, of course, I love the classical technique and moving to music and making making the whole full experience, but but you know, when you look at it from an artistic or an acting point of view, you know, actors have got the the different methods and styles of acting, and and I guess I read books along those lines as a dancer as well, and what actors did to make their movies and their performances really rich.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I sort of felt, well, why not align that with my own career?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And and um, you know, if it was a ballet like Romeo and Juliet, you know, what would I be feeling as I'm you know running in to see the nurse in the day, and and what I feel, what my relationship was like with the mother, as you know, you know, has she been a mother that's been very very distant?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you try to please her, but you can only you know you can only please her on some level, and you know, all of those different what all of those nuances, you know, that I actually observed and I'm reflecting on having recently seen that particular ballet.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you talk about, you know, the clearly the the discipline is evident, and your first year is a really good exemplification of how much you have to push through.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you obviously know that concept about the 10,000 hours, you know, that to be good at anything, you really need to put in, you know, it's a whole philosophy around that.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: The 10,000 hours, if you're 10,000 hours, that's that's the only way to be the best or get, you know, as good as you can possibly be at whatever it is.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, what degree do you think, like obviously there's physique and there's talent and there's all of those things that that make you in a beautiful ballerina, but how much do you put down to persistence and discipline in terms of your success?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think for me, that was so much part of my success.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, like you say, there's there's lots of facets.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's family, like we've talked about, there's body, which is just imperative, but there's also, you know, resilience, persistence, your own self-discipline.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's luck.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's you know, the luck that comes in life of you know being in a company at a time where uh where an artistic director actually sees your talent.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I had that with Maina Gilwood.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: She took me into the company, she offered me my first contract at 18.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: And pretty extraordinary because she's such a stalwart and such a revered member of the.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's a pretty extraordinary person.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you just you need someone to to be your mentor to help you on your way.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, some people might never have that in their career, they might just not be at the right time to have that that real mentoring.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I was lucky not only with Maynard, but you know, in the ballet school, I had Gary Norman and Marilyn Rowe, and you know, all these great Australian artists that really just in their own way nurtured me along the way.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and Maina also brought in um people like Irina Kokova, who was a great Russian star, who who taught me the finesses of Swan Lake and Giselle and Raymonda, and and you know, those sort of to work with those sort of talents that helps with your luck and your journey.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, of course, it's persistence and diligence and then taking their information and making it your own, but but in the first instance, to have the the opportunity to to actually yeah, yeah, but uh and I saw that you also um talk to me a little bit about the little the Rudolf Nureyev uh experience that you had.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: That that's pretty extraordinary.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's one definitely for your history books.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh Deb, it was.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I I have you know, I've got the the photo from that time.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um it was it was a really fortunate time actually.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: The company were asked to be involved.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: It was Michael Etchley who um bringing out the Nurev to do his final season with in Australia, and each of the principal artists they Maynard felt it was important we all got to work with him.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: So so each each uh couple that Maynard chose got to work in one of the states, and I was chosen for Sydney with one of my dancing partners, Campbell Mackenzie, who we shared a lot of the early debuts together.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: We shared a debut in Giselle, we shared a debut in Swan Leg, we danced in on Yegan, we had a really lovely charismatic relationship on stage, and Maina um sent us off to Sydney to dance in the Norae season, and he was unfortunately really unwell at the time.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: It it was his virtually his last year of life in turned out.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, each night we would we would watch him perform.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: He was doing two of the two of the dances on in the show, and then uh I think uh Campbell and I were doing um the bluebird paradeur from The Sleeping Beauty each evening, and also Corsair Paradeur, so two paradeurs, one in the the first half and one in the second, and and then the really special thing for us was that Nurev came and watched us side stage during our performances, being such young dancers, you know, I think I was 24 at the time, and to have him side stage watching us and you know passing on corrections, and then at the end of our very first evening, uh Michael Edgely said, Would you like to come out to dinner?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: Nurev would like you and Campbell to come out for dinner.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so there we were in Sydney, and we were taken to this beautiful restaurant, Italian restaurant in the Queen Victoria building, and we we got to sit and talk, and you know, um sadly, Fontaine, my great idol, had just um passed away not long before, and and he wanted to talk about um Fontaine and Margot and their life together and their stories and their dancing.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Very special.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he danced with Arena Kolokova, and uh, she was actually his she danced Giselle and to his very first Albrecht, and he he shared all these amazing dancing stories, and um what an opportunity for you.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it was, it was.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: I remember going home and talking to my guy teacher and saying, you know, this this has to be, you know, one of the dream nights of my career to to meet such a um you know charismatic artist on the world stage.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: It was you know how old would he have been then, do you think?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Was he what do you think I can't remember he was?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Was it funny that young?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: Was it 57?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: It was quite young, didn't he?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Quite young.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, but that that you had that extraordinary experience.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: And to that, that obviously is one of the other things I wanted to chat to you about is the notion of longevity.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: The the ballet obviously has a very big focus on, you know, it's a youthful uh practice, and generally it attracts youth for a reason.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, that's embedded in a sense in the nature of the physicality of it.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: So when, you know, I was watching the other day, as you know, I was at the ballet with you, and I was thinking, you know, these beautiful young dancers on stage, mesmerizing physically, the way that they can move and you know, everything.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'm thinking, okay, well, they're probably around, I don't know how old exactly, but let's say in the early 20s, maybe even younger, as you referred.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: So to choose the life of a Ballet dancer is quite a big decision because as you've outlined, while you get it's almost like you get this extraordinary injection of experience and energy and youth and all and beauty and all of that.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then the challenge, I suppose, is generally, I'm assuming by 28-ish, I don't know exactly, and you can highlight that for me.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's realistically, your body changes and the younger ones come up, even different to acting in a sense, because you can still be sort of 70 and be Judy Dampch or 80, you know, whereas in ballet it's a lot harder.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: And to your point, you know, Rudolph Murey have obviously passed reasonably young, and yet look what a life and what he gave us.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: What's your reflection on aging in the ballet and also making the choice as a young person to pursue that, which obviously we want because we want that injection of new talent?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: I really, you know, things you know you think you dream of when you're seven or ten or thirteen, you don't really know any of those realities.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: And age in those years is so unimportant.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone looks old, you know, at 40.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, people looked old to you when you're you know, you know, 10.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: So you just don't think about that.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I always you know heard it was a very difficult career, but you know, you've got a dream, and back in the 70s and 80s, you know, anything was possible in Australia.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a magic country, anything was possible.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I believed it was possible.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: And um, as I got into the company life and you know, I started to see, you know, a lot of dancers were retiring very young, even 28, you know, 32, 33.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of the principals were were leaving for other jobs overseas or they were retiring because they felt their careers you know weren't going any further.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: But that has all slowly changed in the last 30 years, that has changed.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, in fact, I've been lucky to be part of that change.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, I I was called, I called a meeting with my director, um uh David McAllister when I was um I would have been around 35, and and I found out that I was pregnant.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and I I went into to David and I said, Look, I'm I'm you know, I'm pregnant, I'm thrilled, you know, I'm 35.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: And and um, and I was already thinking at that point, you know, this is the time for me.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: I have to have a child.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, this is this is the perfect age, you know, any older it starts could start to be more difficult.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and so I was really my heart was full, you know, to be thinking I'm going to have a baby, and you know, I've had this wonderful career, I've done all the ballets I wanted to do.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, I ticked off sleeping beauty, swan leg, merry widow, all those glorious ballets.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and of course we had this lovely chat.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: And David said, Well, you know, we'll have to get another principal in, you know, you can dance as long as you like, but you know, once you stop dancing, you know, when you're too heavily pregnant, we'll just have to leave it there.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, of course, I'd love to have you back as a guest if it ever worked out.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we left it at that, and you know, I was so happy anyway, and to have reached, you know, you know, what was considered a fairly advanced age of 35.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so I went off and had my I danced till oh 20 and a half weeks, which is quite quite big when I do big retirement gallery in Canberra.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that was that was I I was very fortunate.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then um, and then I went off and um had my baby, and two years went by, and David called me up, and he said, Look, we'd love to have you back as a guest with the Australian ballet in Lars Will Feed.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And Lars Wellfeed had always been one of my favourite ballets to dance, Deb.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very ethereal, it's a lot of jumping, but it's very much she's a fairy and she's falls in love with with James, and she's you know, she's very flighty and pet uh impetuous.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Impetuous, yeah, gorgeous, and it's it's a really magical ballet.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so I, you know, I just thought I said to David, oh look, you know, I'll try.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'd of course love to do it, but you know, can I just take a step at a time and I'll get back in shape?
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: This was about October 2004, and I'll get back in shape and be ready for when the company starts back in January 2005.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: And and I went away thinking, oh well, I can't put pressure on myself, I've just got to, you know, work up to it, do some Pilates, do lots of walking, get my fitness up and my you know body.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: I I really all I'd done for two years was wheel a pram.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, um we've all been there, yes.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you just get back my stretching.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: And fortunately, I I got back in the studio and it all started to come back, it started to fall back into place.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: My discipline was still there, and I started to work with this wonderful guest artist.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: He was going to produce the ballet, Johnny Elizon.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: He'd been a teacher right through my career and been a director of Royal Danish Ballet, where I'd gone to guest.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: And Johnny was coming out to stage this ballet, and so I worked, you know, every day with him, and he's a really strong teacher, and and he helped me get back my fitness really to that high level.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, so at 38, I got back on the stage opening night of Lassel Feed.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Wonderful.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, my parents came again.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: My parents came and um looked after my daughter so I could go on tour around the house.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Your parents come back for their starring role as grandparents.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, they they were amazing, and you know, and and it got to the end of that season, and David said he'd love me to stay and dance Sleeping Beauty.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so then uh it worked out that I stayed on to dance The Sleeping Beauty with Stephen Heathcote, which is uh Sleeping Beauty is up there with Swan Lake as you know, the hardest of classical works for a dancer.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're doing three work, three hours of dancing, a three-act ballet, you're on your toes all night, you're you know being lifted, and and it went, you know, just beautifully.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: It just all that muscle memory and all that past discipline, the body just remembers all of that work.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, we worked very hard together and uh set little you know goals so that by June I was ready.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: So are you saying, therefore, that this this really is an exemplification of the capacity for people to for women to go, for example, and have their children come back?
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, you are an example of what the ballet could foster because why, and it's happening in lots of different, obviously, careers now, which is which is wonderful, which is you know, experience and wisdom is being you know revered as it should be.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: But clearly what you've shown, and and are you trying, therefore, in your role at the Australian Ballet now to implement some of these opportunities for other people?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it is actually happening so so very shortly after I had my tenure, I danced for three years.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so right until I was the year of my 40th year, so um right through to the end of dancing at 40.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: We love that.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know it was a great, uh really a great uh mark in my life, actually, to be dancing at 40.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then then very next year after I retired, they brought in a policy for women.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: So now there's at least four, four, maybe six women that are all either having babies or had babies.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: So Donna Stevenson, who's in the ballet, she uh has three children, and her last lot were twins.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: So she's she's come back and looking absolutely incredible.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Arka Condo, one of the beautiful principals of the company, she's about to come back as a um and dance in the Romeo and Juliet season in Sydney.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: So the company are really, they've really pushed that so much, and females are now dancing well into their 40s, and certainly they can do it for quite a long time overseas, and other European companies that don't travel so much have done it for many years, and women can be into their you know to mid to mid to later 40s and dancing.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: But in Australia, because we have you know six to seven months of touring a year, that is a much more difficult situation because you know, once the child gets to five, which happened for me, my daughter turned five, and I wanted her to have you know that that bass and go to school and you know yeah, and that's sort of not moving.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: For her to have her own life and you know, start learning ballet if she wanted to.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and if and is that something that you'd want her to do?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Would you like her to if she wanted?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: 19 now, she loved it.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: She danced right through Deb.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: She she danced and she was at a school that was very musical theatre focused.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: It did all the ballet as well, that was a strong focus.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: But in fact, her real love, I think, in dance came in the musical theatre, and she was had a very strong voice, and she could you know she loved performing like myself, and she would get up state up on stage.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: And for a while I thought she may go into musical theatre, but she's now studying law at um Melbourne Uni.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: So oh, so is my daughter.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's so funny.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Not except not at Melbourne, she's at Monash, but but interestingly, because my daughter uh is um an actor as well.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's also interesting.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: So the notion of fostering, and that's a separate discussion, but it's it's sort of relevant because I think fostering creativity and those opportunities for women in particular to be able to have a creative life, a corporate life, whatever they want, have both have their children and not feel, well, this is your only trajectory.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what is, I think that is very important.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: And to hear the ballet, the you know, the ballet is starting to that example of women dancing in their 40s or a woman having her having three children and still dancing is also a really important part because otherwise the career ends at 28.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, then what?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it really means so that's great news to hear, and I'm sure a lot of the uh the listeners will be very happy if their children want to do ballet.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: They don't go, oh well, darling, you know, by 25, you've got to think about what you're gonna do.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: It has the potential, and then maybe your involvement and a lot of the women on the board are also fostering that approach.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing I was going to ask you, which I think is very important to touch on, is obviously through the pandemic, and I don't want to talk about the pandemic, other than to say the arts had a super hit.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: We all know that.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: I've interviewed many, many people in the arts through the pandemic, but also after.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: But there's this wonderful Renaissance happening, I can see across across the board.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, the ballet was packed the other night, couldn't move, and that was great, and I know it's it's doing really well.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what is your perspective on um where you see the Australian ballet going next, and what is what is your hope for its future?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you, Deb.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's that that is so true.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: The arts really did um suffer so much during COVID, and you know, we all heard about it in the press and everything.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, the the Australian ballet is such, you know, they've always looked after their dancers, they've always looked after their staff and had a very businesslike plan for the company.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, my role now as the foundation chair for the ballet is really to really reignite relationships, reignite, you know, people's love of dance and try and connect with people in the audience community.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you can see it with the full houses.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: I was at the ballet again last night in Romeo and Juliet, and and it was a full house, and you could see this, hear the support in the in the applause and you know, the arts, you know, we're restricted in you know, 2,000, 2,000 um seat theatres and things where you know football can have you know 100,000 or 90,000.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: Good point.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good point.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: But but you know, with really good marketing and you know, putting out, you know, these these ballets, but not only classic ballets, but also ballets like Kunskamar and and you know, programs that are going to really draw in younger ballet lovers.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I was at the ballet generation.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and one of my uh fellow board members on on the foundation board, she she wasn't in the house, but her daughter was in the house.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and I know this this lovely girl had learned ballet, she'd learnt at the same school as my daughter, and we're having a chat, and and I can tell that you know, this this 20-year-old, her love of the art form through learning the discipline and through learning, you know, stage presence and performing, and now she's come full circle and going to the ballet with her mum.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: She was there with her auntie last night, but but you know, that whole connection of bringing in bringing in new younger generations to the company to re-nourish and to you know to find we, I mean, we we constantly need to find support in the ballet because you know, the ticket, the cost of a ticket doesn't meet the performance quality that you see on stage.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we've got the not only the dancers' wages with the costumes, almost costumes and production costs, the scenery, the set, you know, paying all the different artists to creatives, you know, it's all it all costs millions and millions of dollars, you know, maybe three million dollars for a new Swan Lake or a new Don Quixote.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's around that vicinity, plus, you know, all the wages and things.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we I think that's a good point.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's how do we we have to, yeah.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: So so re-engaging the next generation is absolutely critical to ensure the sort of ongoing thriving because a lot of the community is obviously older.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like I know my parents never missed a ballet, they would, you know, always go.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then I know a lot of my friends' parents, and you know, so and a lot of my friends, you know, or our generation, I think you and I are probably similar, then um, where sort of some are engaged and some are not, but it's the next generation that it really when they go, they just you know, you see them sort of just mesmerized.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that probably makes sense.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: It needs to just be out there and engaging.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: And speaking to you has been so informative and so inspiring to sort of give people a little insight into just how fulfilling not only a career in the ballet, but just going and being swept up as I started in my intro, just swooning.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, how can you not?
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: With all those costumes and the dancing and the story, and you know, it's very romantic.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'd like to thank you, Lisa, so much for joining me on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's been an absolute treat.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I look forward to seeing you at the next ballet.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Deb.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: I can't wait.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully you'll just keep being transformed and taken into a next level with the ballet.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: I have no doubt.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: Take care.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: Bye, Deb.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: Love Death.