Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to David Gillespie-Pratt about his choice of The Myth Makers (4/4)

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Talks to David Gillespie-Pratt about his choice of The Myth Makers (4/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:23
None Hamster with a blunt penknife
0:35
for doing. Quicker, quicker, quicker,
0:39
quicker. Hello, and welcome back to A
0:41
Hamster with a Blunt Penknife, the Doctor Who Commentary
0:43
Podcast. And it's been a while.
0:46
It's been a few weeks and I'm here with Joe and we're
0:48
reconvening for the final episode of Myth Makers, which is
0:53
sadly not called Is There A Doctor in the Horse?
0:56
No. What's it called?
0:57
Horse of destruction. Oh, I mean, that's not bad.
1:00
That's not as Doctor Who Tiles goes.
1:03
I mean, it kind of does what it says on the tin.
1:05
There's a horse and there is a lot of destruction.
1:07
You know, there's a bit less comedy and there's a lot of
1:10
brutal violence. I'm pleased to say Is There a
1:13
Doctor in the Horse? Does make it into the novel,
1:15
though. That is a really.
1:17
I think that if you've come up with a pun like that, it has to
1:20
be used. As well as Zeus Ex Machina at
1:23
the beginning. Of course BBC lost their
1:26
sensitive, lost their sense of humour when it's going no, you
1:29
must have really serious titles, but they at least they got away
1:32
with small profit, quick return. Which, which we did say earlier
1:35
that we absolutely now we're going to try not to repeat
1:37
ourselves, but as David just said, it's been a month since we
1:41
did episodes one to three and the only reason we couldn't do
1:45
it all in one night was because we had so much to say about
1:48
episodes one to three. Because can I can I admit
1:51
something to you right now? Please go on to.
1:53
Little bit of sort of ego stroking, but it was one of my
1:57
absolute favorite recordings of last year.
2:00
And despite the fact that we had three No 4 new episodes of
2:05
Doctor Who last year, it's just four, right?
2:08
Power of the Doctor was the year before.
2:10
It was the before, so it was just the four, yeah.
2:12
Myth Makers was my biggest surprise.
2:15
It almost was like my biggest present last year because I've
2:19
genuinely now think this is one of the the top tier William
2:23
Hartnell stories and absolutely one of the top tier historicals.
2:28
And so your suggestion that we do this because this would have
2:30
sat on the back burner till the end of Hamster, I'm fairly
2:34
certain, is that I cannot thank you enough.
2:36
Well you all know I mean I came in with Underworld and then you
2:40
know I think I had to up I had to up the stakes slightly you
2:43
know because you know we were quite I think we were generally
2:46
quite kind to Underworld but and I think when you know it's like
2:49
you know think of a Hartnell story and I listened to you did
2:52
savages got OK. So recons are definitely on the
2:54
table people aren't going to snap them up and you know I can
2:59
do some my geeky archaeology and dig out some interesting facts
3:03
because you know we've got to share them somehow.
3:04
But I've always liked the myth makers.
3:07
It's a it's fun mostly, and it is it's it is a difficult story
3:14
to know. I think I said that before it.
3:16
There's so little of it. But it forced, it forced us to
3:20
look at the myth makers in different ways.
3:21
I read the book, you read the camera scripts, you know you had
3:25
the Black Archive. What else did I do?
3:27
I just listened to the audio, didn't I?
3:29
And watch the loose cannon reconstruction within all of
3:32
those. It's different versions of the
3:35
same story, but they're all painting 11 picture, which is a
3:40
fantastic picture. And I think because so little of
3:44
it is out there and it's just not.
3:46
It's a story that no one really talks about.
3:48
I think when you get to season three, it's the the bigger
3:50
hitters. It's master plan.
3:51
It's the massacre, it's toy maker or views may vary and
3:56
whether or not it's a big hitter in the season or not, myth
3:59
Makers tends to get a little bit forgotten.
4:02
But it is a it's a great script. I mean, it's probably because we
4:06
just don't know anything about apart from you know making some
4:09
educated guesses from the camera script and all that.
4:11
We've got no idea, apart from what, 18 seconds of flickering
4:16
wobbly material and a bit of stock footage.
4:19
We've got no clue what this looks like, but it should look
4:23
good. It's enticing to think about,
4:25
though. And Army Bulb again.
4:30
This probably would be my second favorite of the season now.
4:34
I think it would have been Master Plan Massacre.
4:37
Now it would be Master Plan Myth Makers Massacre.
4:42
I mean if anything from one of those three I would be more I
4:46
trust. I'd be happy with anything
4:48
coming back. But something from Myth Makers
4:51
or something from Massacre I think would do in the same way
4:55
with any of the world coming back.
4:58
Even Galaxy 4 went up. In my certainly my opinion.
5:00
I enjoyed Galaxy just being able to see it and getting an idea of
5:03
what's going on underwater. Menace 2 me I thought was
5:07
brilliant Episode and I still do and it's it's like yeah that
5:11
third one is is crap, but the second one is fantastic.
5:14
Galaxy 4 and the Underwater Menace both.
5:18
My opinion revised. When I saw the animations and I
5:21
saw and I know that's not what they look like, but I'm like,
5:24
OK, this is what they should look like.
5:26
This is what the writers were going for.
5:27
And if we had a big old budget, this is what this would look
5:30
like. Like, jeez, if this was.
5:33
If this was done as an animation, yeah, imagine how
5:36
they do Episode 4 of all these people coming out the horse and
5:39
all the fighting and everything. You could make it bloody epic.
5:42
This could be epic. I mean what they could get away
5:45
with showing because certainly from all the the the soundtrack
5:48
with all the screams and the yells going, are we going to get
5:50
basically a massacre or would it just be could be just suggested.
5:57
Well then but yeah it it doesn't be one if they animated it and
6:00
they upped the scale because I, I, I mean it does you know I'm a
6:06
I've watched the telesnaps. I've looked at all the pictures
6:08
looked at the camera script. So when you get these big
6:09
expansive sets I'm going that's not right.
6:11
That's not right. That's just my brain.
6:13
But then I think, but I wouldn't mind it so much with myth makers
6:16
because I think it would benefit from that scale.
6:19
I mean the model horse is fantastic but it's probably only
6:23
about you know 2 foot high. Someone will probably come in
6:26
and say no it isn't and give you the exact dimensions.
6:29
I've listened to the audio a couple of times in the last sort
6:32
of few months. It sounds epic, you know, I know
6:36
it was done in the corner of ABBC Studio, plus some, you
6:39
know, location work at Fringe and Palms, but it sounds big,
6:43
you know, so I don't think it would be so out of line.
6:46
It sounds great. The only thing, and I noticed it
6:49
when I was watching episode 4 again last night, the music at
6:51
times sounds a little bit out of tune.
6:56
But I don't think it did. I think that's the recording,
6:58
right? That's probably it is probably
7:00
the recording. I mean, I hope it's the
7:01
recording otherwise. But I I like there's a tonal
7:06
shift in this episode and we'll talk about that from the last
7:08
three. But I think there's a musical
7:11
tonal shift as well. The second those gates start
7:14
opening, their music is sort of rising and rising, rising.
7:17
And then the music technique sort of falls away and it is
7:20
just a soundtrack of people being slaughtered.
7:23
And my question to you is no two questions.
7:28
Actually #1 is because I think a lot of episode fours of Doctor
7:34
Who do turn out to be quite disappointing.
7:37
We usually get a great episode one, a good follow up running
7:40
around and then a disappointing ending and four par I think.
7:44
Usually I think this works rather well, but how does this
7:47
work as part 4 for you? And can you think of another
7:54
Doctor Who story that takes on such a a wrenching tonal shift
7:58
as the Myth Makers? Oh, I'll have to think about the
8:02
second. Yes to the first.
8:04
I think as a as a conclusion, you know it, it ends the only
8:10
way it can. Yes, you've got the high comedy
8:12
and everything, but, you know, this is the the Fall of Troy.
8:16
You can't really joke about it. And I think the way that Donald
8:22
Cotton has written it is that that's intentional, not just,
8:25
oh, I better take the jokes out. It's I think I alluded this to
8:29
last time, is that it makes you kind of care, but certainly
8:31
about Prime and Paris. And you know, they're they're
8:34
funny, they're silly characters, you know, aren't they daft?
8:38
And it's like they're about they're going to get brutally
8:40
murdered and that is quite effective for an audience.
8:43
You know, you sort of care about these characters and they're
8:47
going to die horribly. So I think it's very effective
8:51
for that. Where there is another episode
8:54
that has such a shift in tone, there is, but I can't, I can't.
9:01
I think the Gunfighters a little bit does a similar thing.
9:04
I think the Gunfighters in the final episode is a little
9:07
lighter on humour than the first three, but it's not as stark as
9:12
if there is a it's another Donald Cotton strip script that
9:15
ends in a massacre. But, you know, it's a little bit
9:18
smaller. And it's characters that in the
9:20
gunfighters, they're all shown to be a bit morally ambiguous.
9:25
So it's almost and you know, it's the Clantons and they're
9:28
the villains of the piece. So it almost feels justifiable
9:31
that they're murdered down in the last episode.
9:34
Whereas these, so you just said there, these are nice
9:36
characters. It's basically like, I don't
9:39
know someone, what's the family called in my family?
9:41
You know, Zoe Wanamaker and that bunch.
9:43
Oh the yeah, I know. I can't remember.
9:45
Hideous sitcom, But it's a family sitcom.
9:48
Like, like The Myth Makers, it's a family sitcom.
9:50
In episodes two and three years, we're in the the Trojan camp.
9:54
And I got it right. This time it's the Trojans.
9:57
Yeah. Oh, thank you.
9:58
I get it. It's so wrong in the first
9:59
three. It's like someone breaking into
10:02
that house in my family and murdering a lot of them.
10:04
In the climax of one of the episodes, All the seasons, you
10:06
know it's. The same with how Odysseus, I
10:09
think is that, you know, Odysseus, who's kind of the
10:12
villain of the piece. You know, he's a bit camp and
10:15
he's a bit over the top and he's shouting and he's issuing
10:17
threats. You get to about halfway through
10:21
Episode 4 and all of a sudden, even though he's still shouting,
10:24
he's this becomes somebody very dangerous and a real proper
10:28
threat. And again, there's that, you
10:32
know, you kind of say, oh, you know, he's a silly blustering,
10:35
you know, if it was made 20 years later, it'd probably be
10:37
Brian Blesses playing him overacting slightly.
10:40
And it's like, no, he's he's a he's a bastard.
10:44
Where it really feels tense to me, it's in the regulars
10:49
reaction to what is going on. So the Doctor stuck in the horse
10:54
and he knows he's in trouble. And you've got scenes of Vicky
10:58
desperately trying to get Troyless out of the city because
11:00
she's fallen in love with him very quickly, as companions do.
11:03
But she's born, so she doesn't want him to die, so she's trying
11:05
to find any excuse to get him out of the city so he survives a
11:09
slaughter. And then Stephen is sort of all
11:13
we think fatally wounded at one point, but it's just suddenly
11:16
gets very. We've gone from the doctor.
11:19
Versus Vicky and not a game of stratagem to shit.
11:22
We're going to die. We need to get out of here.
11:24
And it kind of goes back to what you got a lot in the first
11:26
season, which is shit. We need to get out of here and
11:29
we need to get out of here quickly.
11:31
And you know, and and let's not forget, you know, there's a new
11:35
regular sort of, you know, it's easy to forget that Katarina
11:41
joins the joins. The series at this point, you
11:43
get Katarina. You're right, yes.
11:45
I There's not a lot going on there.
11:50
I'm going to do this whole commentary is Katarina.
11:52
Yes, my Lord. Have we reached the place of
11:55
perfection, David? Yes, Doc.
11:59
Actually, we may have done with this commentary.
12:01
You know, the place of audio commentary.
12:04
Perfection. That is an honour because you
12:07
know, I've been doing this for too long.
12:09
So it's like you know, come in, make you, make you do the myth
12:11
makers and and. Turn it.
12:14
It's all good now. This is this nation sublime.
12:17
But of course, you know, we've got another story lined up that
12:19
we're going to do next. We have a.
12:21
Very different reaction. You're dragging me head first
12:24
into the Moffett era. Next.
12:25
Thank you very much. Yeah.
12:27
You may as well enjoy your time on this cloud.
12:29
All right, Because we're about to fall.
12:33
Well, look. Do you mind if I do a very quick
12:36
reading as we go into episode 4 from Donald Cotton's amazing
12:40
novelisation? It would be rude if I said no, I
12:43
don't want it. So you know I've got no choice
12:45
ever. I.
12:45
Read this for you. All right.
12:47
OK. You can't put up with this, OK?
12:51
OK, so it's remember it's Homer, and this is him detailing the
12:55
first time he sees the the Amazing Horse of Asia.
12:58
You know, that that's just been built by the Greeks, he says.
13:02
I must say, when I got up close to it, the horse was really
13:05
something those Greeks must have worked well like.
13:08
Trojans on a Job Creation Scheme.
13:11
To get it ready in time. In fact, I suppose they must
13:14
have cobbled it together out of old ship Timbers and driftwood,
13:18
and I could see a thigh bone or two from an old skittle alley
13:21
which had been pressed into service as ribs.
13:24
But somehow there was more to it than that, as if it had taken on
13:27
a life of its own, and Odysseus and the Doctor had just fleshed
13:31
out an idea that gods are full of anyway, weird.
13:35
The whole thing. Brilliant.
13:38
And that's where we left off in the last episode.
13:41
Yeah, the doctor was stuck inside a small horse with a load
13:45
of sweaty Greeks. Or probably all, all, all just
13:50
dressed up in their leather. Have you ever been stuck in a
13:55
situation against a load of sweaty Greeks?
13:57
And sadly not, sadly, no. I mean, when I was growing up,
14:00
you know, while other people were off clubbing doing that
14:02
sort of thing, I was sending off further myth makers on VHS to
14:05
get the reconstruction. So you know.
14:08
I've been a little bit, though, so I've been stuck in a
14:11
situation where I've been a bunch.
14:12
A load of sweaty men, but none of them were Greeks, I can
14:15
assure you. More's the pity.
14:19
Oh look. Shall I?
14:20
Shall I count us into four, the horse of destruction?
14:22
The horse of destruction. OK.
14:25
Well, we'll go then. In 3210, I'd only do five.
14:31
I don't know what happened there.
14:33
Well, off we go. Did you tell me that you had
14:36
gleamed something fresh and new from the camera scripts?
14:39
I promise not to take the piss like yours.
14:42
I promise I will take the piss out of myself.
14:43
It was in the camera script, it's actually in the dialogue
14:46
and it is from the end of the episode.
14:48
But what the hell? Yeah, we've got, we've got a
14:50
commentary to do. So obviously this is Vicky's
14:54
departure, you know, going off as Cressida.
14:57
And I was looking at the last scene, looking at her last lines
15:02
and she's talking to Troilus and she says something and it was
15:05
like, oh, that sounds familiar. And she says something like I'm
15:08
going to have to find this because she says, you know,
15:13
talks about staying and everything like that.
15:15
And she says I belong here with you if you'll have me.
15:21
And I thought that sounds familiar because at the end of
15:27
the rescue, she when Barbara says are you going to come with
15:32
us? She says.
15:34
I'd like to if you're having. Me so.
15:37
She says in her at the end of her first and end of her final
15:40
story, she kind of ends it with her.
15:42
If you're if you're have me now, I can't work out if that was
15:48
something that was planned or not.
15:51
I'm. I lean towards coincidence
15:53
because the circumstances, they weren't exactly waving Maureen
15:58
O'Brien off with handkerchief, saying good luck on your new
16:00
job. But they would have access to
16:02
the script, the script of the rescue, right?
16:05
They would. It's whether they if they cared
16:06
enough, because it's a different script editor, different
16:08
producer, different writer, different director, and
16:12
basically they'd fired it. So I I I just say I can't, I
16:16
can't quite work out. We could throw that one out
16:18
there. If, you know, there'll be people
16:20
who might know better. But I can't work.
16:22
I can't decide. I can't settle.
16:24
Within there's all those things you just said that they fired
16:27
her. You know, this was all done in a
16:28
hurry, etcetera, etcetera. I do think they really do take
16:32
the effort to give her a good departure in this.
16:34
I was so struck by her scenes at the end of this story.
16:38
They do give her an ex and it and it occurred to me as well
16:41
and you know, I've got the got the reconstruction going on.
16:44
We've just talked over Katarina's first scene, which is
16:47
quite easy to do because basically it's so bland an
16:50
introduction. That woman over there, my
16:52
handmaiden. That woman who's kind of had
16:54
been there the whole time. Yes.
16:55
Come and talk now really flatly so yeah the because The thing is
17:02
like with the exception of possibly what Liz Shaw and maybe
17:05
one of the Romanas, all the Doctor companions get an exit
17:09
and you know looking at TV in the 60s and it's not unheard of
17:14
in long running shows for characters to just disappear.
17:18
Oh where's such and such. Oh, we've left the If they just
17:22
opened up, this is a new production year and they said,
17:24
you know, they've been a break between, you know, with Mission
17:27
to the Unknown. So if they'd open the myth
17:29
makers and the doctor and Stephen come outgoing, oh,
17:31
Vicky's been left. So the audience in 6065 wouldn't
17:35
have battered and either they'd have gone.
17:37
Yeah, she's gone. That's just something that
17:39
happened. I know it happened in things
17:40
like the some of the soaps seems like Avengers and stuff like
17:43
that. You know, main characters would
17:44
just be gone. So the fact that they wrote her
17:48
a departure. There's there's three scenes, I
17:52
think there's the scene between her and Troyless in episode 3
17:56
where they're in the cells and he's clearly, absolutely head
17:59
over heels about her and she's sort of playing on that and she
18:04
clearly really likes him as well.
18:05
Then there's a scene in this between her and Stephen where
18:07
he's teasing her about Troyless, and you can see she genuinely
18:11
does care about him. And then there's a scene at the
18:13
end of this where she finds him. She's desperate, basically.
18:16
She's got nobody. Everyone's just always dying in
18:19
Troy and the one man that she saved who thinks has sold her,
18:24
sold him out. She's got a trunk it once.
18:27
She's got to try and convince him that she loves him, that
18:30
they can build a life together and and really sort of describe
18:35
the tragedy of what's going on. I think that it's there in the
18:39
dialogue and it's there in the performance.
18:40
It's a really. Powerful scene.
18:43
And she and she she nails it. It's a you know but considering
18:47
you know she not only all those things she was never really
18:50
happy with it. You know she's probably quite
18:51
glad to be going so she could have phoned it in her and but
18:54
she didn't And I think just we've talked, I think we've
18:58
talked over probably one of the best lines of the of the story
19:02
because it's not the most obvious joke.
19:05
It's the doctor in the horse talking about shock absorbers.
19:09
Oh my God, it's so funny. And it's like, that feels like
19:13
the sort of thing that they would write if they were doing
19:16
this now that is a line that you would have now you'd have the
19:19
doctor complaining that they hadn't put it, oh, shock
19:22
absorbers or some. It's, I said this before, It's a
19:26
very modern line. It feels it would not feel out
19:29
of place. In I could see Jodi Riska
19:31
hanging like, you know, this modern behemoth inside to the
19:35
edge guy. If you give me a day or
19:36
something, I could. Have fitted some shock
19:38
absorbers. I I you sometimes wonder whether
19:42
or not, like the, you know, the modern writers and production
19:45
teams look at going God, we could have really done something
19:48
with, you know, the Trojan horse, but they've already done
19:50
it. Although I bet if they wanted to
19:52
do it again they could do a hand wave explanation of we're doing
19:56
it again. Well, we did Atlantis a few
19:58
times, but listen, if you add audio goes, we did Pompeii a few
20:01
times. Exact, you know and and they did
20:04
the exact same story with human nature and human nature, you
20:08
know. Darlik and Jubilee.
20:10
Exactly. Yeah.
20:11
So where would you? One thing that keeps coming up
20:16
is they've got David Bradley now.
20:18
They should just remake them. I'm.
20:21
I'm I'm not sure. No.
20:23
And I think the the mixed reaction to the dialects in
20:26
colour and it was mixed I think has proven that there are
20:33
purists, you know, and there are people that don't mind and I
20:36
think you need more more than that behind these projects to
20:40
really give them a go and. I think sometimes people, you
20:44
know, the thing with sort of studying the production and
20:46
everything is that yes, they can look a bit cheap and a bit
20:50
slapdash to our eyes now 60 odd years on.
20:52
But these were not cheap. They may not be the most
20:55
expensive, but they were not. And if you want to get say, you
20:58
know you're not just getting David Bradley, you know, if you
21:00
were doing the myth makers. Now if he was roommate, that's
21:02
quite a large cast and there's some quite sizable roles in
21:06
there. So these things cost probably
21:09
quite a lot of money, especially when do Troy convincingly as
21:14
well. That's going to be expensive.
21:16
So I just can't imagine ABBC Four production remake of the I
21:20
don't see these, that sort of thing ever happened.
21:22
It would be like a telemovie Dr. or something like that, wouldn't
21:25
it? You know, it would need a a a
21:27
big budget. You talk about.
21:29
There's some big performances in this.
21:32
Yeah, you're right. Francis White is back on the
21:35
screen right now going. She prophesizes how to.
21:41
The I mean The thing is here we are the the one of the last
21:44
jokes in the myth makers is the whole world to the horse which
21:49
she does just her and Barry Barry Ingham that that comedy
21:56
and you know when I when I get to that point where the tone
22:01
it's starting to you know and Odysseus is this is where he's
22:05
kind of shifting from. They say.
22:07
He says. He says.
22:09
I hope the people on my side are dead because it means I can take
22:13
away more spoils whilst we've raided Troy and the doctor's
22:17
response to that is vicious, isn't it?
22:21
I think Hartnell is you know we were saying last time he was not
22:24
in a good place at this point but from the audio he is just
22:29
and he's there's one bit towards the end where I think he
22:32
struggles but for the most part of this story he is on form and
22:38
that's just coming through the audio.
22:39
What we we miss in the same way we miss with trouting as well is
22:42
the visual tics of his performance.
22:45
And I think, you know, when listening to people, you know,
22:48
talking about twice upon a time and everything, the thing that
22:51
the reason why I personally wouldn't want remakes is those
22:56
other actors, Herndel and Brad. They just don't get heart.
22:58
And all's the twinkle in his eye, but also the proper
23:01
indignation. And this is proper indignation.
23:04
I would say the way he bears his teeth, you know, when he's
23:07
really angry and this bit where he goes to him, you're cheap,
23:10
you know, it's like the most cutting insult he could possibly
23:13
give it. And then is it, Francis?
23:15
Dwarf goes. Oh no, it's not Francis.
23:18
It's IVA IVA, Soldier Salter. Just like starts cackling like a
23:22
madman, doesn't he? And and I think that's the point
23:25
where it's like, this is no longer the comedy villain that
23:30
you know, was going to fire the Doctor over a wall with a paper
23:33
dart that we had a couple of episodes ago.
23:36
This is, you know, he's about to come out of this horse and
23:39
slaughter everybody. He is a monster.
23:42
He is what? He does when he when his men
23:44
come down, you know, in some very suspenseful sequences,
23:48
because it all starts very slowly, doesn't it?
23:50
They start climbing down, the gates are opening, you know, And
23:54
I was there. At that point you almost think,
23:56
Oh well, maybe this will be done for laughs, you know, because
23:58
we're all sort of tippy toeing in and then.
24:01
It's bloody slaughter all the way.
24:03
And and the tone of it I think matches.
24:05
It's like you're going to we're going to do a massacre, but
24:07
we're not going to make it a comedy massacre.
24:09
It's not going to be a funny massacre we're not going to
24:11
have. I'm kind of getting stabbed and
24:14
doing the whole Kenneth Williams thing of, you know, dying with a
24:17
joke. I think.
24:18
I think Paris and Pram die off screen.
24:22
I think we just come back and they're dead.
24:24
He basically says him, him, her kill them and and then the scene
24:29
cuts away. And that's it.
24:31
And and I think that's the shocking thing, things that are
24:33
left to your imagination as well and it's.
24:39
Not just that though, you know, not just that the scene where
24:43
Vicky says goodbye to the Doctor has left your imagination as
24:45
well. I have heard a reading by Toby
24:49
Haddock running from corridors that that's more touching than
24:54
actually seeing it. The new series now would never
24:57
cut away from the emotional moment like that.
25:00
Well, I think the classic series maybe?
25:02
Like what? How?
25:03
How could you do it in, I don't know, 6 lines or something in a
25:06
TARDIS scene? You couldn't.
25:08
And I think that was probably the right decision.
25:11
I think one, we don't know what went on.
25:15
We know that whatever she says is enough to convince him
25:18
because when he's telling Stephen later, it's not a, you
25:22
know, order. It's it's like she's made her
25:24
choice and this is what she wants and and.
25:28
But compare that to his reaction in the chase when Ian and
25:31
Barbara want to leave and he's indignant.
25:34
So this is again how the Doctor has changed and how he has grown
25:38
and he accepts. You know, obviously what's going
25:42
on in that what, 4-5 minutes where you know it's meant to be
25:45
gone inside the TARDIS and. She comes out right and she hugs
25:49
the TARDIS. That's so moving, isn't it?
25:52
It's like this is the last time you know.
25:56
I I will never see it again until Russell C Davis
25:58
commissions a series of special linking scenes.
26:01
We never thought we were going to see that, did we?
26:03
We never thought she would ever go back.
26:06
So I'm going to go back to camera scripts because around
26:09
this point is where we get the scene and you bench where the
26:14
gates of the we see the gates of the city open and the way that
26:17
it's done. If if people are watching the
26:18
loose cannon, that's kind of how it was done.
26:21
And this is, this is the level of detail that that was pre
26:25
filmed not on film but was shot earlier in the day in the studio
26:28
because they were doing some sort of fancy high angle shot
26:31
where the camera started low on the gate and pans up, the gate
26:34
opens and then it's just the sound effect.
26:39
So it really it's just rebuilding the suspense, isn't
26:41
it? Doing it slowly, you know.
26:43
And then there's that musical and and you know the music you
26:46
were saying, you know, you said before we started the music has
26:49
a change of tone and there's a musical sting as the gate opens
26:53
it. Rises and rises and rises,
26:55
doesn't it? And then it stops.
26:57
And then all you've got is the sound of the the gates being
27:01
stormed. And if the script is represent,
27:05
you don't see, it's just implied.
27:06
Going back to what? It's all being left to your
27:08
imagination. And I think it's like we can't
27:11
get away with lots of stabbings, lots of blood or anything.
27:15
So we'll just leave it to be suggested.
27:17
You'll hear it off camera. You'll see.
27:20
Maybe see some dead bodies. There'll be some smoke.
27:22
I think the the implication of the murder is in losing all
27:25
those characters that we like, isn't it?
27:27
Well, and you do have a fight between Troilus and is it
27:31
Achilles? Achilles dies and Troilus gets a
27:35
a knife wound. It's a.
27:36
Brutal fight. If I'm being really brutally
27:40
honest, this This is probably the weakest bit of the episode
27:43
because it's so hard to visualise.
27:45
It's lots of grunting and the music being slightly wobbly and
27:51
it's like the reconstruction does it's best, but it's it's a
27:54
long sequence. And I know, like, we feel we can
27:58
feel burned by action sequences in the 60s.
28:00
Like you remember though some of those ones in the time meddler,
28:02
which are a bit lame. But then think of the end of the
28:05
Aztecs, you know, where the fellows in the big lion mask and
28:09
all of that. And that's really impressive.
28:11
So they can do it. If they've got a good fighter
28:14
Ranger, and if they've done it on film, and I think this fight
28:17
was done on location, so it they will have a chance to cut it and
28:21
film it and shoot it properly. I think Doctor Who fights come
28:24
undone where they do in the studio on the recording night.
28:30
I'm going to point to the war games for having some of the the
28:32
lamest fist fighting in Doctor Who history.
28:37
Particularly, there's a bit in Episode 9 where you've got a
28:39
guard who's basically reacting to clearly not being hit.
28:43
So you know it. It's one of those things that
28:45
like if you're going to do a fight scene, you either got to
28:48
do it on film or you pre film it.
28:50
I'll take. Your war games, you know, and
28:52
I'll, I'll trump you State of Decay, which has some really
28:55
lame fights in it. I love State of Decay, but
28:58
there's one fellow who gets shot and then he's in the way that
29:01
came on and he rolls across the set to get out of the way.
29:04
I know the bit you mean. I know the bit you mean.
29:07
But like, but think about. Think about what's happening
29:10
with the characters we like. Prime did.
29:13
Paris did. Achilles did.
29:17
Troilus Maimed, Stephen Maimed, you know.
29:20
It's very few people come out. In fact, very few people have
29:23
just come out the story unscathed because Katarina.
29:27
Amazing. Wonderful.
29:29
Katarina doesn't, doesn't live much longer after this.
29:33
You know she's dead within four episodes.
29:35
Although thinking I was thinking about, you know, looking at
29:38
Adrian Hill's performance in the only surviving episode, and it's
29:42
hard to tell whether or not because the the character's so
29:46
underwritten and probably her best episodes in Master Plan are
29:49
one and three. She doesn't do much in two, and
29:51
she. I don't think she even has a
29:53
line of dialogue in four. That her ending is memorable
29:57
because it's so brutal, isn't it?
29:59
It's so shocking. I think when people only
30:02
remember Katarina because she if she came in and if like she got
30:05
left behind on earth or so it would just be but.
30:09
Think of the opposite though. Imagine if Katarina had run off
30:11
the toilets and had a happy life and came back in tails of the
30:14
Natalis and Vicky has stayed in the dialect master plan and been
30:16
sucked out into space. Which, according to some source,
30:20
could I I can't imagine. That ever happened.
30:24
Thank goodness. Oh, do you know Cassandra in
30:27
that scene where, oh God, I'm so terrible with the names?
30:31
OK, no, not OK, Liz. Odysseus, thank you.
30:34
Where Odysseus is, is threatening or threatening.
30:37
You know, bloody murder. She stays totally defiant,
30:41
doesn't she? Right to her last scene.
30:43
I mean she's dragged. I mean this is it's this is
30:47
probably the awkward the awkward bits of the story what the
30:51
suggestion the implicate. So you know there's been
30:55
discussion when you talk about time Meddler and the the assault
30:58
on Edith and the attempted assault in case of Mariners and
31:03
also the Romans as well with Nero.
31:06
It's played totally for laughs but Nero is basically a sex
31:09
pest. What happens to Cassandra at the
31:11
end of this story, which possibly historically accurate,
31:15
but she's taken away as a gift for Agamemnon and the
31:20
implication in the dialogue? Is that she's a gift for him?
31:26
She's a gift for him to do with what he wishes and that's I
31:30
wondered. If the implication was that he
31:32
gets to murder her because she's a royal bud, but then you could
31:35
give it that other reading as. Well, and and and that.
31:39
That's really, you know, for this high comedy and this silly,
31:44
histrionic character. That is quite a yeah, that's a
31:48
brutal ending. And I mean that's that's like,
31:52
oh God, I've my memory's going, I'm an old man nowadays.
31:56
It's like I, Claudius, I, Claudius shows you the really
31:59
nastier side of history. You know, and this is probably
32:02
as close as we get to that sort of thing, this and the massacre.
32:06
So it's it's what Wiles and Tosh are doing with history is they
32:10
really want to expose sort of pull off the plasters that we
32:14
put on with our nice pleasant readings in Doctor Who and just
32:17
show the cuts underneath. Yeah, Nice, lovely.
32:20
Oh, because the, you know at the heart of this, if we want to get
32:24
into a moral debate, moral debates on Doctor Who, What the
32:27
Doctor does is he is instrumental in the mass this
32:32
massacre. If he hadn't designed the horse,
32:36
this wouldn't have happened. But he designs the horse because
32:39
it did. And then we start going into
32:40
paradox and and that's not what this the story's not about
32:43
paradoxes or anything like that. It's he's creating it because
32:47
that's what happens. But compare how he's reacting
32:52
here to this horrible Brooklyn massacre.
32:53
He burns down Rome the previous season to a check and and he's
32:58
like. Look, they make a joke about
33:00
that they They can't. Even in this episode, they
33:03
cannot explicitly say Doctor, you are responsible for this
33:08
because we can't really move on from that.
33:09
We know he is, but I in the new series, if we knew series was
33:14
doing this, it would all be about the Doctor's involvement
33:17
in this and his sort of emotional journey and his, you
33:21
know, a bit like Fires of Pompeii he.
33:23
Would be fires from Pompeii. It would be.
33:26
He has to do this horrible thing because that's what.
33:29
History dictates. What we don't like to say about
33:32
the myth makers is actually the Doctor was just in a bit of a
33:34
jammy situation and the only thing he could think of, because
33:37
he had no imagination, was the Iliad, the grey horse of Troy.
33:40
And the result was a lot of people died and.
33:44
He's just saving himself. He's basically, you know, oh
33:46
shit, I'm going to be stuck on this giant paper aeroplane and
33:48
shot over a wall. I better come up with another
33:50
plan. Oh, hang on the horses, but.
33:54
That will never not be funny. You know the full Hartnell
33:57
strapped to that. I think that is one of those
34:00
scenes where they're talking about the paper dart and he's
34:04
showing how to. I think there's probably bits of
34:07
comedy because when you look at Hartnell doing comedy and the
34:10
Romans and the gunfighters, he knows how to do comic timing,
34:14
not just with the dialogue, but also with his mannerisms, his
34:16
body language and so on. And it's like, I think we are
34:20
certainly from the middle episodes of this.
34:22
I hear there's a ton of stuff that we haven't.
34:25
We just cannot see. But he knows how to do the
34:28
character drama as well, so the bit where he the door opens
34:33
after Vicky's gone and he looks out, I bet that was a very
34:36
powerful moment. You can see in the city's
34:38
footage, the bit where he says I know he fluffs the line, but
34:40
where? He says to Katarina at the end,
34:42
and this is as close as we get to him accepting responsibility
34:45
of what he goes. And don't forget, I'm not a gold
34:49
is the lion. You know, he does fluff it, he
34:51
says. I'm not a dog or something like
34:52
that. Well I've written down because
34:54
I, I I I've see that and I see people say that and I'm like,
34:58
I'm not sure because that's it. So the the I said before, there
35:03
is a scene where I think Hartnell is on form until that
35:06
final scene and there are a couple of points where he and
35:09
Adrian Hill keep. Jumping over each other.
35:12
And they're missing their cues. And it's it's it's not good.
35:15
It's almost like you know this is the end of the day.
35:18
Have you, could you not just retake this one last scene?
35:20
Because. And I think that throws them off
35:23
a little bit. So she says as you wish, Doc.
35:27
Now I I've, I've tried turning the volume on.
35:29
Does she say doctor or doc? It does sound like she says doc,
35:34
but I can't work out in the terms of the story why she would
35:38
do that because then he gets the I'm not a duck If he says I'm
35:42
not a dog. If we get this episode recovered
35:44
and he says I'm not a dog, I will.
35:46
I will gladly you might. I just I the promise this
35:49
quality of the sound you can't. It's so frustrating.
35:53
And also Hartnell's, Hartnell's old Vicky, you know, I hope
35:57
you're going to be all right, my child.
35:58
And all this that feels really rushed.
35:59
In the the chase, he had that whole sequence where he was
36:02
like, you know, oh, I shall miss some silly old fuss pots, you
36:06
know, We linger on him for ages, whereas here it's about 10
36:09
seconds and then we move. On and he's off.
36:11
And then he's, you know, babbling on about getting
36:13
himself some drugs. Yeah, I'm I'm surprised.
36:16
If that existed, that would be a mean way.
36:18
You know, she's saying drugs, drugs.
36:19
I need some drugs. Oh, we just talked all over the
36:24
Vicky and Troyla scene, which, I just want to reiterate, is very,
36:27
very powerful because basically they they have to summarise the
36:31
horror of what's happened and suggest that there's hope for
36:36
the future for the pair of them. In one scene.
36:39
In one scene and they've got to sell their romance, the fact
36:43
that she's, yeah, willing to go off with him and everything
36:46
because he only appears he's not in.
36:47
He's mentioned in episode 2, he's only in three and four and
36:50
they don't even get a huge amount of screen time together.
36:53
But in in terms of the, you know how classic series works, I buy
36:58
that more than Lila, Lila and Andrid.
37:03
Oh, it's sets up far better you. Know it it It feels more
37:07
credible that she's met someone. She's charmed.
37:12
At least they've put some of the scenes of them, kind of.
37:14
And Stephen winding her up about it as well.
37:17
It's better than that. I fall in love with this person
37:19
now, Doctor. Goodbye.
37:20
Or even Mel at the end of Dragon fire.
37:22
You know, I suppose it's time I should be going.
37:25
Eh? What?
37:27
I mean, somebody once said it would be more believable if Lila
37:30
had gone off with Rodan, because at least they spent a good deal
37:32
of time. Together, one of our
37:34
commentaries, I think you know, someone said.
37:35
That that was great. That somewhere.
37:37
And it's like, yes, I mean, they would never have done that, but
37:40
at least those two had chemistry.
37:42
That would be the best sitcom ever.
37:43
Lila and Rodan as a lesbian carpet.
37:46
The one thing, because when they do, you know, Big Finish, to all
37:49
the Gallifrey stories, this is a tangent.
37:51
What the hell? They never bring Rodan, Rodan
37:53
back. They brought all the others.
37:55
They even bring Andrea back, don't they?
37:57
In a surprise twist. Although I won't tell you what
37:59
that is. Look, we're talking all over,
38:01
William. Hartnell emoting on the screen.
38:03
He's emoting on the screen and he's very sad and he and and yes
38:07
it's brief but you can hear the the emotion in his voice.
38:10
You know I shall miss you child. He he it this is again it could
38:14
be something that he does visually where it's almost like
38:16
he's getting upset. He's like, no, I've actually got
38:18
to take care of Stephen, who's sitting over there doing some
38:23
good deathbed acting. You know, the Katarina.
38:27
No, he's not doing that. He's Vicky.
38:28
Vicky. Where's Vicky?
38:29
Over. At least he's not delivering
38:31
plot points, which normally people in delirious states have
38:34
to do in Doctor Who do. You know, I I I just realised
38:38
this story does something that very few Doctor Who's stories
38:43
get right. I did allude to it earlier, but
38:45
I want to bring it up again because so it's the it's the
38:49
panic around the situation that they're in and it's really sort
38:55
of extending. We've got to get out of here.
38:57
The the shit has hit the fan. We cannot do anything to make
39:00
this better. Let's go.
39:02
And this does it. The massacre does it.
39:04
A few stories later when remember the Doctor comes in and
39:06
he's like Stephen. We have got to get out of him.
39:09
Demons of the Punjab does it when they realise those horsemen
39:12
are coming, you know. And it's those moments when my
39:15
heart really starts pumping where you really you, where you
39:19
realise sort of just how deadly history is.
39:23
I think that goes right back to the first story, because one of
39:26
one of my favorite bits of An Earthly Child is the last, what,
39:30
four or five minutes? Where they it's like we've got
39:33
to go and it's that chase through the forest at the very
39:38
end and you've got, you know, that music playing and they're
39:40
dirty and OK, they're running on the spot slightly.
39:43
I don't care. I think that's a brilliantly
39:46
directed sequence and it really sells the we've got to get out
39:50
of it. This is our only chance.
39:52
And I think the 60 certain Heartland era does that better
39:55
than any other of history is dangerous and the massacre.
39:59
You could argue the massacres, you know, having meddled in
40:03
history, meddled in massacres here, the doctor's like, you
40:06
know what? I'm in this dangerous period of
40:08
history. We've got to go.
40:11
We can't get involved. We've got to go.
40:14
And that's another one that again brutal ending.
40:17
I mean, it's not a tonal shift, which we were talking about
40:19
before, because that story is pretty grim all the way through.
40:22
But again, all those nice guest characters that we got to know
40:26
will end up dead. Well, and I, you know, go back
40:29
to Punjab again. It's why I think the two
40:31
historicals from season two big ones, Rosa and Demons of the
40:35
Punjab, they hearken back to the heart of historicals.
40:39
No, none of the historicals in between are doing a similar sort
40:43
of thing where history really does have a bite, you know?
40:47
And that's why I love those two historicals, because I just
40:50
didn't think there was a place in Doctor Who for these really
40:53
serious historicals again. And it's proof that actually
40:57
that formula still works, even in big budget Doctor Who.
41:01
You know, even where it's a lot more sort of entertaining and a
41:04
bit frivolous and and overly emotional, you can still do
41:08
these deadly serious historicals and they can really have a nip.
41:12
And they can and they can pack a punch as well.
41:14
And I think that what you know, it's not original observation
41:18
about Rosa. It's like it didn't need space
41:21
villain in it. It would have been just as a
41:24
powerful story almost without it.
41:26
I mean telling some of the those especially modern historicals,
41:32
that's difficult. I think when it's either you
41:35
know certainly far back in the past and you can insert
41:37
characters into Massacre in Paris or make up some Aztecs and
41:41
everything it it it's quite easy to kind of say we're doing a
41:44
story in history but we can we can play in that sound box a
41:46
bit. But when you start bringing in
41:47
real historical figures and shortly it was probably next
41:53
week, we're going to be talking about Series 12.
41:55
We're going to be talking out the Jodie Whittaker.
41:57
And there is a particular historical character in Spyfall
42:02
that I think Doctor Who really does not serve well.
42:06
And it's because they have a very difficult story to to tell.
42:09
And you you either tell it properly or you what, you don't
42:14
tell it at all. I've got a bit.
42:15
Of trivia about that, Well, I'll drop in that episode, which is
42:19
quite astonishing, but I'll save that as an entitlement for that
42:22
episode. That's, that's that's a tease.
42:24
That's a that's a trail for for something coming soon.
42:26
But I think it's to Chris Chibnall's credit that he's
42:30
looked back at the 60s and said these these historicals that
42:35
really make your heart pump these, this is the sort of
42:38
stories I want to tell, you know?
42:39
And it's stories like them, the massacre stories like the myth
42:42
makers, stories like the Aztecs, stories like 100,000 BC or
42:46
Unearthly Child, whatever you want to call it these days.
42:49
Yeah. And what I love about those two
42:52
in 11 is in Rosa, the climaxes we have to be involved and we
42:58
don't want to be because it's a horrible thing that's happening.
43:01
And in Punjab it's we can't be involved, we've got to walk away
43:05
and that's horrible that that's happening.
43:07
You know it's the two two polar opposites and.
43:10
I think that's because that's the thing with the Hartnell
43:13
Historicals is there's a lack of, there's no consistency.
43:18
I was going to say lack of consistency in that there are
43:21
those where they can get involved and then there are
43:23
those of, you know, in this getting heavily involved
43:26
gunfighters, sort of. But in the massacre, as soon as
43:30
the Doctor realizes what's going on, they're gone.
43:32
We're gone. You know, we can't save anyone.
43:34
We can't do it. And touching on things that
43:37
modern series would pick up, Couldn't you know, couldn't you
43:39
just save that one person and they kind of fudge it by going
43:42
here's her great, great, great, great granddaughter who she's
43:45
got the same name and oh, it's probably that that is one hell
43:49
of a fudge. It's interesting that they they
43:51
have two of the three and CS and three have emotional
43:55
consequences for the regulars though the the myth makers.
43:58
We lose Vicky, you know and Stephen's wounded and we so
44:02
there are massive consequences in the massacre.
44:05
Stephen's had enough, he said. Like they're not involved in the
44:07
climax. But the basic, the emotional
44:09
climax of that story is I've had enough of this.
44:11
If you're steps back into history are going to be this
44:14
cold, you're going to let innocent women die.
44:18
I'm, I'm off the reason why I love the gunfighters.
44:21
I do. But I did it recently with Ron
44:23
Valentine and the reason why it doesn't, it sort of fails at the
44:26
climax is there's, one, there's no consequence for the crew at
44:31
the end, and two, they're not involved in the climax.
44:35
So it basically doesn't need to be a different story, does it?
44:38
The gun go into the gunfight just to give us something to do.
44:41
But no. The the the, yeah the doctor has
44:44
no agency in the final episode of the Gunfighters which in a
44:47
way it's a bit of a step down from this.
44:48
You'd think that Donald Cotton would, you know, between his
44:51
first and his second story would go, yes, I understand how the
44:54
characters integrate and so on. And actually to take that was a
44:57
backward step of actually the Doctors less involved in
45:02
gunfighters which is a real shame.
45:04
But oh I see I had a point that's completely gone.
45:07
That's just absolutely. Typical.
45:09
I think the point that we're trying to make is these
45:11
historical adventures are pretty extraordinary and are full of
45:15
talking points. And if you will indulge me
45:18
again, I do have another excerpt from Donald Collins, Donald
45:23
Cotton's novelisation. Because at the climax of the
45:27
story I did wonder how on earth is he going to describe this
45:30
massacre at the end of the story and still make this a child
45:34
friendly book. He doesn't.
45:36
So what happens is halfway through the book Homer loses an
45:41
eye and so we so shock Revelation Cyclops in the TV
45:45
story that is Homer and they start calling Homer Cyclops for
45:49
the rest of the book. That's a good twist.
45:52
The reason Homer can get through both camps is because Cyclops
45:55
has a way in and out, and he's doing that in the TV story.
45:58
So that's really, really smart. In the climax of the book,
46:01
during all the kerfuffle, Homer loses his other eye, so he can't
46:05
see anything. So the narrator of the book can
46:08
no longer see the events, just as the massacre starts
46:11
happening. And so and here's the excerpt.
46:16
So I can't tell you very much about it after all.
46:19
But as far as ear witnessing is concerned, I could do all that's
46:24
right, and soon began to wish I couldn't.
46:26
The roar and crackle of flames, the crash of masonry, of the
46:30
topless towers tumble to rubble, and the bubbling sobs of the
46:34
slaughtered. So he's basically explaining the
46:37
soundtrack, which I think is. So what we listen to, it's so
46:41
clever. That is clear.
46:43
I mean, if you listen to the soundtrack closely, I think you
46:46
can hear the dry ice machine a couple of times.
46:49
OK. I was listening, going what was
46:52
that going? I think that might be the thing
46:53
pumping smoke into the set. Bless.
46:56
Them you can actually hear it just after Vicky comes out of
46:58
the Tardis. I think you can hear a kind of
47:02
noise and it's like, is that distortion in the soundtrack or
47:05
is that something offset pumping in the dry ice?
47:08
I was reading out on the train today, coming back from London
47:11
with my over and I was just sort of shaking my head, going man,
47:13
it's so clever, he said. He manages to duck all the
47:17
awkward stuff and still let it all take place in a way that we
47:20
recognise because we can only hear it, which is.
47:23
Yeah, I think that that's when the Target books were allowed to
47:27
be creative and ever. Not just, you know, reading Time
47:31
Flight, reading Underworld, where it's basically just the
47:34
script with some prose around it.
47:35
That's Donald Cotton going. I want to tell the story, but I
47:39
want to tell the story creatively and differently
47:41
because he did the same with gunfighters.
47:43
He does the same even though he didn't write the TV Romans.
47:45
He does the same with the Romans and they are three great books.
47:49
I'm. Pleased to say, you know that
47:50
with the latest targets that have been written, I've read The
47:54
Giggle recently. Yeah, and it is in no way a
47:59
script to page telling of that story.
48:03
It is something a lot smarter, a lot more fun and way imaginative
48:08
than that. I I couldn't believe ATV tie in
48:11
Target book was allowed to go that batshit crazy.
48:15
It's the It's the most out there since these Donald Cotton
48:18
targets. I I will have to get.
48:20
I've been. I've been on the fence with
48:21
because some of those books going, yeah, I should give them
48:25
a try. But, and I've read a couple, I
48:26
did the audio book of Dave the Doctor, and I thought that was
48:29
similarly played with structure. I don't know how it could be
48:32
read out as an audio. I'd be fascinated to see because
48:35
it it there's so many insane things that go on on the page
48:40
with pictures and things like that, that how that will
48:43
translate as an audio, I have no idea.
48:45
It'll be one of those ones where it's like it doesn't quite work.
48:48
You need to. You need to pick.
48:49
A book and read it. I've got a feeling about when my
48:52
next book could well be. I'm sorry, I'm I'm, I'm already
48:55
planning. We're planning a holiday.
48:56
We're off to Seville in a few weeks and it's like, yeah, yet
49:00
again. We're going on holiday to Spain
49:01
to a Doctor Who location. So whether or not we'll do a
49:05
tour of the two Doctor filming locations.
49:07
That almost looks a couple of imaginations.
49:09
Preamble. Then for our next episode, you
49:11
know we'll never. Segue.
49:12
We never segue. I've got one sort of tiny
49:15
reading and then we'll do our three things and summarise our
49:17
thoughts. So this is right towards the end
49:21
of the book and it's basically the explanation as to why the
49:25
Iliad made it into popular myth and not Doctor Who and the myth
49:29
makers. He goes, I haven't been idle.
49:32
My great epic about the Trojan War has sold extremely well.
49:36
But if you ever read the Iliad snappy tile, don't you think
49:39
you, you mustn't be surprised if you find no mention in it of the
49:44
Doctor and the Tardis. No, no, no.
49:46
I've put those things down to Zeus and the Olympians because
49:50
that's what the public expects and you have to give them that,
49:53
don't you Just. But just once before I die, I
49:56
thought I'd come back here and remember what really happened
49:59
and tell it like it was. And so that's what I've done.
50:05
Very nice. That and that is a good way to
50:08
end the story and ties in with Eliot, you know, which I've
50:13
never read. So everybody when you're, you
50:15
know, studying. The Iliad, you know, when he's
50:18
talking about Zeus, it's the Doctor.
50:20
When he's talking about the Olympians, it's the companions
50:22
and the TARDIS all right? Well, they do say is Zeus at the
50:25
start, so you know it only makes sense.
50:28
Well, and even Achilles, when the Tardis materialises, the
50:31
Doctor goes Zeus. I wonder if he was, you know,
50:35
Yeah. So we're still left pondering.
50:38
Although then the Doctor says no, I'm not, I'm not.
50:40
I'm. Not a dog.
50:41
Not a dog, yes. All right.
50:45
Well, free of peace then we've got to try to summarize this
50:47
thing. We'll start with you.
50:51
I see. I I, I've learned quickly doing
50:53
these, not just to write 3, because if I'm write 3 and then
50:56
like I'm scrambling around for other one.
50:58
So I'm going to go off peace. I'm going to go for the last one
51:01
on my list, which is I've got, I have a Psalter as Odysseus
51:04
because he's a villain and he's a villain that because the
51:08
story's missing, nobody really pays attention to and manages to
51:13
pivot from being comedy villain to really threatening.
51:19
And that scene between the Doctor and Odysseus and the
51:22
horse where there's that real sense of the doctors with this
51:26
lunatic who will kill him. And you know this is the actor
51:32
who his last appearance was as a board guard in the Space Museum,
51:37
owning it in. And he's, I think he's in black
51:40
orchid and it's again not and yet here possibly because actors
51:44
can do historicals better. I think he is.
51:49
If this story existed, I think Odysseus as one of the
51:52
historical villains bit like clutoxol and would be talked
51:55
about more and it's probably not talked about enough.
51:58
So I'm going, I'm going off peace there with my first one.
52:01
I'm going to go slightly because I wanted to start with Donald
52:03
Cotton, but I I want a NAB Francis.
52:07
Why as Cassandra? Because.
52:10
A performance from a woman quite like it until at least the
52:14
Graham Williams era. Possibly K O'Mara in terms of,
52:18
you know, picking up the Scenery Hole, shoving it down her throat
52:23
and then she's eating the set. She is nothing.
52:28
Left. That's why there's no pictures
52:29
of the set, because Francis White ate it.
52:31
Oh, she's amazing. She's so funny as well.
52:35
But utterly consistent, You know?
52:38
She doesn't drop that facade of being this irritating
52:42
prophesizer of doom throughout 2-3 and four.
52:46
Even right at the end, when something clearly terrible is
52:48
going to happen to her, she's still defying and.
52:52
She was right. She comes, she goes to those
52:55
phantom. Conventions, you know?
52:57
And I remember when I first saw her, I was like, oh, really?
52:58
They're Pilling out this woman from May to December, you know,
53:02
on on the Doctor Who convention. Now I get it.
53:06
I get it. It's a great performance and
53:09
it's a brilliant character to play as well.
53:12
Yeah. So Cassandra, I think she's
53:14
brilliant. My second word I'm I'm going to
53:18
keep. I'm going to keep this random
53:19
because we talked about all the goods.
53:20
I'm going. It has one of the.
53:22
Best. Worst.
53:23
Jokes in Doctor Who history in It's too late to say woe to the
53:29
horse. I think ending, basically ending
53:33
the comedy of this story because that's pretty much one of the
53:36
last obvious jokes from Paris on possibly the most horrendous pun
53:44
to not only just write it, but to leave it and to then have it
53:48
as because they've got it in the reprise in episode 4.
53:50
So they we actually get that joke twice and it is a terrible
53:54
joke and it's all to get away with it.
53:57
They had. To turn it.
53:58
To sort of tragedy. Because the comedy had gotten so
54:01
bad. There was like, we can't get any
54:03
worse. You know I I just.
54:06
Got to give them. Credit for just going it's a bad
54:09
joke, It's no and I think it knows it's a bad joke and it's
54:13
the point where the humour stops.
54:15
So it's basically the bad joke that kills the humour in the
54:18
myth makers. I know there's probably a few
54:19
other funny bits, but from that point there is that line isn't
54:22
there in episode 4 about. Being as nervous as a back of
54:25
night at her first orgy, which is a great line.
54:31
No, that is that. Yeah, and I think.
54:32
That's that's what people remember about this story.
54:35
Isn't it? Is that that quote, That quote?
54:38
And I think again. That would be memed if it
54:41
existed. That would be clips that would
54:43
be shared. I can see a lot of the jokes in
54:46
this would be gifts, would be clips shared on things because
54:50
it is just the script is just, I mean when people aren't being
54:56
brutally murdered. Yes, of the regular zone I would
55:01
like to. Highlight more in O'Brien as
55:02
Vicky, who has she sort of doesn't feature much in episode
55:06
one, but then really comes into our own in 2-3 and four.
55:10
How she charms Brian, you know, annoys Cassandra, the witches
55:16
troyless. She's quite a presence.
55:20
In the Trojan camp, isn't she? And and yeah, as I've said again
55:25
and again in this episode, how it's sort of we funnel the
55:29
emotional consequences of what is going on through her.
55:32
Her panic to get Troyless out of the city, her reaction to what's
55:36
happened and her sort of suggesting that we go off and
55:42
you and me, sorry, her and Troyers go off.
55:45
And build a life together that there, that there is hope for
55:48
the future and how? Lovely that we know now because
55:51
of that Blu-ray trailer and Tales From the TARDIS that in
55:56
fact they had a very happy life together.
55:58
But you know, we said Warren O'Brien did not have to get an
56:00
amazing ending because they were basically just kicking her out
56:03
of the show. They wrote her up and she
56:05
delivered. So she is my #2.
56:08
I can't do that. She was on my list.
56:11
I'm going to be more of it. I'm going to mention Hartnell.
56:15
I mean, it's so obvious to mention the lead actors and
56:18
these things. It's like when Toby Haydock does
56:20
his podcast, it's like I can't always go pick the actors.
56:22
But we touched on this last time in episode one and two, this
56:26
Hartnell was going through a bit of a crappy time.
56:29
You know, he was unwell. He was kind of been humiliated a
56:33
little bit on set, allegedly or and with the exception of that
56:38
final scene in the TARDIS, he sells the comedy, he sells the
56:43
drama that, yeah, that biting rage.
56:46
He has a Odysseus and the horse. So the other side of the first
56:50
one I picked, he does it so well and he does it, You know, he's
56:55
not fluffing the script. You know he's not.
56:59
OK, he may have said it was. That he's a dog.
57:02
Whatever. But he.
57:04
I mean the humor in, you know, the stuff with the darts in in
57:09
the third episode. Is there a catapult as well if I
57:11
misremembered? That there's a there's a
57:13
catapult, there's paper darts. You and me said, didn't we?
57:18
You? Could you?
57:18
Know there's a Hartnell reaction shot there.
57:20
You just know it. There is.
57:23
Looks there is. Stuff that he's doing and I
57:26
think despite the fact that his personal life and everything was
57:29
not in a great place, from what we can hear he just delivers and
57:34
and and that considering there are times where he doesn't
57:38
deliver. As much as he could.
57:40
Or, you know, he's not on top of the script or anything.
57:43
The fact that he's doing that in these circumstances, I think got
57:46
to give him credit for that. There are my.
57:49
Last thing then I you. Know, I always want to credit
57:52
the director, but but like you said, there's so little of this
57:54
that we can see. You can't really judge what the
57:57
director was bringing to this story.
58:00
Even with the bits that we've sort of pieced together, you
58:03
know, our archaeology of how this looks, even with the few
58:07
stills that we've got, you can see it's sort of looked like
58:10
there was a bit of money there, but it's really hard to tell.
58:13
So the attention is going to go on.
58:14
Donald Cotton instead, who you know came in, wrote a couple of
58:18
scripts and essentially revolutionised how you tell
58:22
historical Doctor Who stories and then vanished into the ether
58:26
and then revolutionised how you. Write them as target novels in
58:29
the 80s. Just like.
58:33
Ridiculously smart. Like such an intelligent raging
58:36
of this story, more witty lines than you can shake a stick at in
58:42
this a very confident tonal shift.
58:46
Towards the end. Just the fact that he went for a
58:49
myth and rather than a historical event is really,
58:54
really interesting. His use of the regulars is
58:58
really sophisticated in this, the Doctor and Vicky on opposing
59:01
sides working against each other.
59:04
The fact that he manages to put in comedy and horror and
59:08
romance, it's got sort of a bit of everything in it.
59:12
The fact that it manages to be surprising and violent
59:19
shockingly. Violent in the last episode.
59:22
But most of all that is as funny as it is.
59:24
I've always said humour is my into Doctor Who and that's what
59:27
bewitched me in episodes 1-2 and three.
59:30
That's what relaxed me, especially in two when we went
59:32
to the Trojan camp and we were in that family drama with those
59:36
absurd characters. Yeah, it is such a sophisticated
59:41
script. It's a great script and that
59:43
that when I did that list. Script was actually script was
59:45
the first one but I just thought I'm I'm, I love the script.
59:49
I think it's it's witty. It's all the things you said
59:51
it's witty it's funny it's clever and and that pivot from
59:56
high comedy to tragedy works it so many writers would do you
1:00:02
know try and do something similar and fail but it it
1:00:06
really works. Certainly audio alone.
1:00:10
It builds those characters up, builds up the silly family care
1:00:14
about those characters. And then when that massacre
1:00:16
comes and shocking, it's shocking.
1:00:19
And say, the comedy. Villain becomes a deadly,
1:00:22
horrible villain. I'm trying to think there have
1:00:25
been times with Doctor Who's done that before.
1:00:26
The only one that comes to mind is Doctor Who and the pirates
1:00:29
for Big Finish, where you've got Bill Audias, the comical pirate
1:00:33
captain who then by the end of the story, which has, there's a
1:00:36
story with a similar tonal shift.
1:00:38
Actually you did say to come up with what?
1:00:40
OK, it's Big Finish, but that's silly.
1:00:42
Common, you know, light, there's a musical episode, and then you
1:00:45
get into episode 4 and it's grim.
1:00:49
It hits you in the gut, doesn't it?
1:00:51
Just like this does, yeah, Because you're you're you are
1:00:54
lulled into the the sort of how comfortable the pirate story is,
1:00:59
how funny the musical numbers are.
1:01:02
And then suddenly, Evening Smythe is cradling a young boy
1:01:06
that she's become very fond of, that she's been trite, that he's
1:01:10
literally dead in her arms and she's been trying mouth to mouth
1:01:14
and bringing him back to life. And she breaks down over it and
1:01:17
the doctor's trying to take his body off her.
1:01:19
It's absolutely shocking. Yeah, that.
1:01:22
That that's the that was the challenge at the start.
1:01:25
Think of a tonal shift that that was probably the one I was
1:01:28
thinking of. It's like and it's very similar.
1:01:30
It's again, three episodes light silly comedy and everything.
1:01:34
And then Russell. Brutal finale.
1:01:37
Because history's brutal history is brutal.
1:01:41
Well, what a, what a stunning conclusion that we've come to
1:01:45
then at the end of this history is brutal.
1:01:49
I just want to say a massive thank you to you for suggesting
1:01:51
this story nobody else has in 600 episodes of Handsome with
1:01:56
Blood Pen Knife and it remains the biggest surprise today for
1:02:01
me that the one where my opinion has shifted the most.
1:02:06
I'll have to. Think of a follow up.
1:02:08
That's maybe not the one that we're going to be doing next.
1:02:10
I will think of a suitable classic, maybe one that moves.
1:02:14
Yeah, well, we are going. To one that moves next, aren't
1:02:17
we? It don't move very fast, but it
1:02:19
does move. I knew you were going to say
1:02:22
that. David, thank you very.
1:02:25
Much for your time. Thank you very much.
1:02:27
Pleasure to do this one. Thank you.