Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / Misery Is Optional – Redefining Softness, Structure & Anxiety with Mark Rashid & Crissi McDonald | Ep 32 Equine Assisted World

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Misery Is Optional – Redefining Softness, Structure & Anxiety with Mark Rashid & Crissi McDonald | Ep 32 Equine Assisted World · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

• 0:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
• 0:02
  I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
• 0:05
  author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
• 0:08
  Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
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  thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
• 0:15
  I have a request.
• 0:16
  If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
• 0:22
  It really helps us get this work done.
• 0:24
  As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
• 0:27
  And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
• 0:31
  equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
• 0:35
  If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
• 0:40
  com.
• 0:41
  So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
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  Welcome back.
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  I'm here with the amazing Chrissy McDonald and Mark Rashid.
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  Those of you who listened to our previous podcast know that we ended
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  with talking about really how to achieve softness and softness being
• 1:02
  something that isn't just physical.
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  Of course that comes from within.
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  Mark was talking at some length about his relationship with
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  Aikido, for example, and music this way, not just with horsemanship.
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  Chrissy echoing many of these intimate
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  at the same time.
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  I became anxious and I thought, well, if I'm becoming anxious, probably
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  other people are anxious too.
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  And the anxiety was, what if I'm not soft enough?
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  And now we've gotta be soft?
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  Oh, now we've gotta be soft.
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  What if I'm not soft?
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  Ah, you know, and it brought to mind, I think we live in a particularly
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  anxious society where in some ways things have never been better, and
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  in some ways there's never been so much to cause us to feel anxious and.
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  We've never taken, I think this idea of fairness and ethics to heart,
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  particularly in the horse community, in the way that we have now, it's, it's
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  definitely, I think, unprecedented really.
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  And at the same time, and that's good and at the same time, it can
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  cause one to feel anxious, of course, that one's not living up to this.
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  And, you know, should we do anything at all?
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  Should we even go near a horse?
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  Should we even put our fingertips on a horse, let alone our butts?
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  You know?
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  And should we put anything in their mouths, let alone, you know,
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  anything on their noses or anything.
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  Or anything or anything.
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  And that spiral of anxiety, of course is not soft, but
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  we're in pursuit of softness.
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  So there's a paradox there.
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  And I'd like to explore that paradox.
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  'cause I think we're all, to some degree battling with this,
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  or at least dancing with this.
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  And when we have people like Chrissy and Mark who have good, incredible
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  things to say on these things, I think it's worth bringing this up.
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  'cause I do think it's a, it, it's a concern not just for horsemen, but for
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  people who are running programs at equine assisted programs, that sort of thing.
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  We, we want to, we want not just our horses, but the people
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  we're serving to have agency.
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  And at the same time, this can cause anxiety where we end up
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  trying to control that anxiety.
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  And so what do we do about that?
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  What do we do about that guys?
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  Mark Rashid: Well, I'll jump in.
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  Basically, the idea for, for us, when we talk to folks is
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  oftentimes, especially when we're working with horses and with people, is that the
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  idea is to be as soft as you can be, which may not be as soft as you want to be.
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  And you know, as, for instance, on a scale from zero to 10, with zero
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  being no pressure, you know, as soft as I wanna be is maybe a 0.5.
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  But given the circumstances of the day and the situation that I'm in, I might
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  have to go to a seven, but that's as soft as I can be on that day, in that
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  situation, the key to that is that we don't bring emotion into the situation.
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  We're just dealing with what's in front of us.
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  Without making up stories around what we're, what we're dealing with or what's
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  going on, just deal with the situation.
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  And then with, if you can, I mean, working on internal softness
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  is, is really important I think, and we can talk about that too.
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  But, but a big part of it for me is being able to control self, having self-control.
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  And I think that's where, where we get into trouble sometimes is that we we're
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  trying to be soft, but maybe things are escalating and, and now I am, I'm at a
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  seven and I'm outta control emotionally.
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  I'm angry or I'm scared, or, or whatever.
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  And, and it's difficult for situations like that to come back into control.
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  So for me, it's not so much about being, you know, we talk about being soft.
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  The goal might be to be at a 0.5
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  in everything that I do.
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  And I also have to understand that there may be times where I may have
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  to, because of the situation, I may have to bring that level up.
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  And so that's, you know, that's kind of the way that I would, I would, that's a,
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  I mean, for, to start the conversation.
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  That's, that's what I would, that's what I would offer.
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  Rupert Isaacson: That's it is quite intriguing to have a scale
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  that one could put a number to.
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  Is that an Aikido thing or is that something that you've just
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  come up with instinctively?
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  I.
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  Mark Rashid: I've pretty much come up with that just in our
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  teaching with horses and riders.
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  Mm.
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  Just so that we have some language and an idea to, you know, if we're using a scale
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  of pressure, for instance, on the reins with a rider, I can maybe get on one end
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  of the reins and the hor and the rider be on the other while they're on the horse.
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  And I could say, well, could you show me what a, what a one feels like to you?
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  And, and then on, you know, feeling what they do in the range.
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  I can say, well, that actually feels like about a three to me.
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  Let me show you what a, what a one feels like to me so that we can, we have a
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  jumping off point and so we, we can be speaking the same language instead of,
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  instead of some arbitrary, you know, speak that, you know, we, I may understand as
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  one thing and the rider might understand as something completely different.
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  So it's just a, just a way for us to kind of get on the same page
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  and have a jumping off point.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, that's helpful, Chrissy.
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  Softness and the anxieties around it.
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  Yes,
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  Crissi McDonald: yes.
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  So the first thing I thought about was because we're talking about softness
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  as an internal state, and we're talking about the paradox of also being anxious
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  and having that be an in internal state.
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  I completely agree with you that I think these times and our cultures
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  have a lot of anxiety right now, so it's really easy just to be anxious and
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  it takes practice to not live there.
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  One of the things I like to talk about is anytime we have something going on
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  inside of us, it's like a speed bump.
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  So I get up in the morning and I look at my email and there's someone
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  who's mad that's a bump, right?
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  And then I come out and I check on the dogs.
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  Maybe one of my dogs isn't doing good.
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  That's a bump.
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  And then I looked at my texts and then I look at social media and then, you know,
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  you can see how this starts to snowball.
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  Yeah.
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  And
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  Crissi McDonald: so by the time I get to my horse, I've maybe driven in traffic.
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  I have dealt with other drivers.
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  Maybe I listen to the news, which isn't that great right now.
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  Maybe I've seen an animal on the side of the road that got hit by a car.
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  I mean, it, it's just that this is life, right?
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  It's messy.
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  And so by the time we get to our horse.
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  We're not traveling along a smooth road anymore.
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  We are constantly going over these speed bumps internally.
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  So I think the practices is when you, when tho when that information, when life
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  hands you these things, is to be able to be aware of it, recognize it, and then
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  try to get yourself back into homeostasis.
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  So meaning you're not too, you're not in a panic attack, but you're
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  also not almost falling asleep.
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  Right?
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  Your nervous system, from what I understand, I'm not a therapist, but what
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  we're learning from a friend of ours is your nervous system is meant to do this.
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  Right?
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  We don't, I was under the misconception that I always had to be parasympathetic.
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  I always had to be calm.
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  And anytime I felt a blip of anxiety that was bad and I had
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  to do something to take it away.
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  And that's really not a complete picture.
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  So I'm learning more about the nervous system states, but before I started
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  learning about this, every, I would think about the inside of me as as
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  how many speed bumps have I gone over before I got to my horse, and
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  how can I smooth that road back out?
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  Because every time we have a speed bump, that's a, the horse
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  is trying to communicate right?
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  And it can't get over that.
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  So it hits this, this is my feeling, this is.
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  Is a feeling I have.
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  We're working with our horses.
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  We're maybe in a certain state, but we're so tight internally, maybe
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  we're trying to be soft and we just can't be soft and oh my God.
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  Now I'm not soft in my, I'm torturing my horse, right?
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  Rupert Isaacson: I'm torturing myself with this or torturing die for softness.
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  Yeah.
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  Crissi McDonald: Yeah.
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  But if we could take a breath and just let all of that go.
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  Just, just, we don't have to let it go in the sense of, I'm never gonna think
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  about it again, but can I just set that aside for 20 minutes and be with my horse?
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  You know, I'm not ignoring it, I'm not bearing it.
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  But can we kind of let that pass through us instead of sticking inside?
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  Can I let that information pass through me instead of getting stuck?
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  Rupert Isaacson: Now, let's say you
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  have a mechanism, and let's say it's breathing for that.
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  And you arrive at the place where you keep your horse because not everyone is
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  lucky enough to keep their horses at home.
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  And then you come in and perhaps you see a face that causes you some
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  anxiety or someone enters the arena that causes you some anxiety, perhaps.
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  Your horse is living in a box.
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  And has been stood there for a long time and is full of energy to be
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  expressed and can't be soft because just can't be soft at that moment.
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  So one's own desire for softness, of course, is unable to be met
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  by the horse in that moment.
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  And now I'm anxious about that and I'm anxious about these other people and
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  I'm anxious about, and I'm anxious about
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  breathing will certainly help me, but I suspect it probably
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  won't get me fully there.
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  When we are dealing with all these imperfect situations, we are assuming
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  that not everyone is living on their own private ranch in the Rockies
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  backing onto a national forest.
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  What are some really practical things?
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  Breathing for sure is one, but what are some really practical things we can
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  do to try and access that softness and particularly when the horse is not meeting
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  us with softness and can't in that moment?
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  Crissi McDonald: Well, I'll throw in my 2 cents, then we'll go to Mark.
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  I, I find a really helpful thing to do, especially if a horse is coming out of
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  a stall, is instead of having an agenda, I am gonna do these five things today.
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  As we bring the horse out of the stall and see what the horse needs
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  that may be to go for a walk.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  It may need if there's turnout.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Crissi McDonald: It, part of softness is also awareness.
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  So we look at our horse and we say, okay, this, you know, whatever the situation
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  is, this is where my horse is right now.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  How about we, I'm a big fan of doing what you can do, not doing what you can't.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  That's good.
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  And I got
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  Crissi McDonald: that from a certain guy.
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  So what can we do on a day when a horse is much bigger than we would, you know,
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  we look at 'em and we think, I'm not ready to ride that, but what can we do?
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  We can go for a walk, we can lunge, we can find a round pen and explore some things.
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  We can turn out and let our horse great.
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  I mean, there's, so we get so focused on what we can't do.
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  I think, I think that's a survival bias or something Steve would know,
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  but we get so focused on what we can't do that we lose sight of what we can.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  And there's always something we can do.
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  Or I mean, even, even if we just spend an hour walking our horse around the property
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  and the horse ends up feeling softer, less worried, that's, that's a good day.
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  That's quality over quantity.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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  Crissi McDonald: Right.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I agree.
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  Crissi McDonald: That's, that's my thought,
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  Rupert Isaacson: mark.
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  Mark Rashid: Well that's, I, I think the, the question really needs to be
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  how do I get into a state where that those things don't bother me so much?
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  And you know, for me, I, I, I try to live my life in a certain way to where,
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  to where I don't get anxious very often.
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  That doesn't say that I don't, but I, it doesn't happen very often and
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  most of the time it's just one of my practices is to look at things for
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  what they are and not worry so much about building stories around things.
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  And, and, you know, that's, for me, that's been a really important step
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  in not just horsemanship, but life in general, so that not everything has
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  the same level of importance, you know?
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  So, forgetting the milk at the grocery store.
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  For a lot of folks has the same importance as getting into a fender bender in
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  the parking lot of the grocery store.
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  You know, or, you know, it's, it's unbalanced.
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  It's an, for me it's an unbalanced way of being.
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  Hmm.
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  And going through the day.
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  So, you know, being able to see things for what they are instead of, you
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  know, taking everything so seriously.
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  There are some things that need to be taken seriously, but you can
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  still do that in, in a calm state of mind from, from an internal.
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  So for me, the, the, it starts with how are we living our life?
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  Because, you know, you made a really good point in that we basically
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  live in a low level state of panic.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
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  Mark Rashid: You know, I'd say that's true
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  Rupert Isaacson: for most people and
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  Mark Rashid: be, and that's, we allow that, that's a choice we make.
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  So, yeah.
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  I mean, the world is what the world is and our, you know, it's like,
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  like Chrissy mentioned, you know, the news, watching the news, well, there's
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  nothing I can do about any of that.
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  You know, I, I can't, there, I have no influence on any of that.
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  Yeah.
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  At all.
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  And so, you know, I can't let it bother me too much.
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  I.
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  You know, I have, I have influence in the, in the three foot
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  space around me more or less.
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  And so I feel like that's a good place to start.
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  Rupert Isaacson: That's stoic philosophy basically.
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  Mark Rashid: Hmm.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Which interestingly they say was started by a man called
• 17:54
  Han who happened to be a horseman.
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  Hmm.
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  Rupert Isaacson: And a student of Socrates and the best mate of Plato.
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  And also a mercenary.
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  Just,
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  Mark Rashid: you know, it's funny, it's funny because, you know, in
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  the dojo we spend a lot of time, in fact I'm, I'm doing a an upper belt
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  class that, that meets once a month.
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  And in that class, what we are working on is being able to stay in a calm state
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  of mind, regardless of the situation, regardless of the type of attack that's
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  coming, regardless of the weapon that the person is holding, regardless of, of
• 18:38
  how many people are, are surrounding you.
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  And again, it's a practice and we just don't practice those things
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  and we get good at what we practice.
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  And so if we practice being in a, in a worried state of mind all the
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  time, this low level state of panic, then we're gonna get good at that.
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  And if we choose not to do that and we choose to practice something else, then
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  you know, then we'll get good at that.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
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  I mean, I think many of us grow up being trained to be anxious.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Because, yeah, that makes us controllable.
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  If you're anxious about your grades, if you're anxious about not getting punished,
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  if you're anxious about going to hell, then you could be manipulated quite well.
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  And of course, I think many of us did grow up to some degree that way.
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  So the unlearning of that is tricky, particularly when you are being bombarded
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  with anxiety in, you know, amygdala triggering media that deliberately is
• 19:55
  there to trigger you because it makes you keep watching and keep clicking.
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  And of course, what could be a better partner to help us with that than a horse.
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  But we found, I, I, here's an interesting thing.
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  When I moved to Germany back in 2018 it was the first time that
• 20:13
  I had not kept my horses at home.
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  And because I arrived with six horses and I didn't want to kind of, and I
• 20:21
  couldn't just like arrive and buy a farm.
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  And I had to wind things up in Texas and so on.
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  That takes, took a while.
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  And anyway, it was would've been, you know, a massive schlep.
• 20:31
  So I thought, well, let's just keep, let's just downsize, let's just keep
• 20:34
  the horses, you know, at a boarding barn for a while while we find
• 20:38
  our feet and look around and Yeah.
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  You know, be less stressful.
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  And so you got there, you gotta look around.
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  And so, okay, well where do I go?
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  Where I can arrive with six now?
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  I don't wanna spread 'em out all over the countryside.
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  That's, yeah.
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  So that narrowed the choices.
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  And then we ended up at a place and not too far away and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
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  So that narrowed the choices again.
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  And then we ended up at a place where, well, they're gonna live in boxes.
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  And when I was a kid growing up, our horses at home, we did
• 21:10
  have 'em in boxes overnight.
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  In the winter you'd bring them in, 'cause the weather's pretty rough in that part
• 21:15
  of England and I, but you'd let 'em out again in the morning right away.
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  And these were horses that were in either high competition work
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  or hunting horses or whatever.
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  So it's not like they were not clipped and not doing, but they were clipped.
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  But you put rugs on them, you kicked 'em out for the whole day.
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  You brought 'em back and it's just what you did.
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  And then I was like, oh, well no, we can't do that here.
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  Even though there's all these fields, because the German
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  farmers don't like muddy fields.
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  They don't like to see the mud.
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  Like, oh, oh, that's old coming from the uk because we like assume
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  everything's gonna be a mud bath.
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  Alright.
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  Okay.
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  And then I rose, wow.
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  My horses are not gonna get out in the winter.
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  Like, yeah, they have like a place they put 'em where they can
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  stand around for a couple hours.
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  It's not the same, right?
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  And these horses have to now give wellbeing to these autistic kids
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  who are coming and so on and so on.
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  And they're just gonna be standing there going stir crazy.
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  What can I do?
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  And so I thought, well, crazy, that's the word.
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  If the horses are going crazy, then they need to express that craziness.
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  So we came up with this thing called crazy time, where I would take them up
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  to four of them into the covered arena at one time and just set up obstacle courses
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  for them of any kind I could think of.
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  They liked to jump, so that included jumps, but it wasn't just about jumps.
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  And I'd let 'em go and they'd go bananas in a, in a group and for a while and do
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  it all and kind of then turn and look at me like, and now, and I go, oh, I see.
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  They want that interaction.
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  So then I would change it and then I'd say, off you go.
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  And they go banana for a bit and then they'd turn around, look at me.
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  And then that all you got.
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  And then I, we, so we evolved this pattern and then I was thinking,
• 23:02
  yeah, but how do I, they science me quite a lot at this crazy time.
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  And then after that they got so many endorphins.
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  They're actually quite happy to stand and chill for a bit.
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  But then of course the regular work starts.
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  But this is time consuming.
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  And I thought anxious again, right Time conflict.
• 23:18
  And that's said, well, hold on, hold on, hold on.
• 23:21
  Why don't I get my kids to do the crazy time?
• 23:24
  Why don't the clients come and do the crazy time with the horses and, oh, this
• 23:28
  is good horsemanship and you know, team building, gotta build the thing and so on.
• 23:34
  And then, oh, but now I'm under pressure because I'm also supposed
• 23:37
  to be teaching these kids stuff like maths and things like anxiety.
• 23:41
  I'm like, well, hold on, hold on, hold on.
• 23:43
  How long is the wall of the arena?
• 23:46
  Let's walk it out.
• 23:48
  Oh, it's 60 meters long.
• 23:51
  Okay.
• 23:51
  And how long does it take that horse or that kid or that dog to
• 23:58
  make it from one side to the other?
• 24:00
  And can we do distance over time?
• 24:02
  And that gets you speed.
• 24:03
  And suddenly I realized I'd stumbled into this massive teaching tool
• 24:07
  that everyone's needs got met.
• 24:11
  And it happened because I had ended up in this really imperfect
• 24:15
  situation, got very anxious about it,
• 24:20
  the horses kind of showing me what they needed.
• 24:24
  What was interesting was
• 24:30
  after I then left there and went back to keeping my horses in a more
• 24:34
  naturalistic way, which I do now again, I realized that I should have
• 24:39
  been doing crazy time the whole time.
• 24:41
  That they really, really dug it like I had been of the, of the opinion that, well,
• 24:45
  if they turned out, that's kind of enough.
• 24:46
  But, but actually horses are so playful and they love this
• 24:50
  interaction with their monkeys.
• 24:52
  That had I not been in that position of anxiety, I wouldn't have, you know,
• 24:56
  stumbled into this thing that, so I, I do feel that anxiety can sometimes
• 25:00
  be an aid if it's a temporary state.
• 25:05
  And it's also interesting, there's a slight contrast
• 25:07
  between what you guys said.
• 25:08
  You know, Chrissy, you were saying, well, we're often taught that we gotta be calm
• 25:12
  all the time, but actually we gotta let our nervous systems fluctuate because
• 25:17
  sometimes we're actually supposed to react, you know, appropriately to things.
• 25:21
  Jane Pike's work, I think is really good at showing us that sort of,
• 25:24
  for listeners who haven't gone and checked out Jane Pike, go check out
• 25:27
  Jane Pike and her nervous system work.
• 25:29
  It's top notch.
• 25:30
  But then Mark, there you are talking about, yes, but I
• 25:34
  need to be cool under fire.
• 25:35
  I need to be able to think, I need to be, not lose my ability to assess,
• 25:41
  control myself, et cetera, et cetera.
• 25:44
  Discern even under anxiety, producing pressure.
• 25:50
  Mark Rashid: Well, but those are two different things.
• 25:52
  Rupert Isaacson: Let's starts with that paradox a little.
• 25:54
  Mark Rashid: Those are two different things.
• 25:57
  Anxiety and pressure.
• 25:58
  Okay.
• 26:01
  Mark Rashid: So pressure will cause us to.
• 26:04
  Caused our seek system to kick in.
• 26:08
  So while you were, while you were talking, I was thinking, was that anxiety or was
• 26:14
  that pressure that he was feeling Anxiety a lot of times doesn't allow us to think.
• 26:22
  It, it true.
• 26:24
  It puts us in a different state of mind.
• 26:26
  Rupert Isaacson: That's the amygdala and cortisol, right?
• 26:28
  Right.
• 26:28
  Yeah.
• 26:29
  Mark Rashid: And so, but pressure's a different thing.
• 26:32
  Pressure causes the seek system to kick in so that we search for answers.
• 26:38
  So we look for a release.
• 26:40
  So we, that's a different, it's kind of a different ball game.
• 26:45
  Anxiety.
• 26:46
  I'm not, but pressure can produce anxiety enough.
• 26:50
  Enough, yeah.
• 26:52
  Enough of it.
• 26:53
  Yeah.
• 26:54
  And without us being able to deal with it in some kind of
• 26:59
  positive and productive way.
• 27:02
  So, for instance, you know, Dr.
• 27:05
  Peters talks about, you know, in the fifties they had a an experiment
• 27:10
  where they put a dog on a, on a metal floor in a little cage.
• 27:19
  And the cage was split in two by a, by a little wall that the,
• 27:25
  that the dog could jump over.
• 27:28
  And so they electrified the floor.
• 27:32
  I guess a little light went on and then they electrified the floor and
• 27:37
  then the dog jumped over to the other side where it wasn't electrified,
• 27:40
  so it was able to get away from it.
• 27:43
  And then they electrified turned the light on, and that side electrified the floor.
• 27:47
  The, the dog jumped over to the other side and was safe.
• 27:52
  And then eventually what they did was they electrified both sides of the floor.
• 27:56
  Okay.
• 27:57
  And it, it, it was basically ended up being learned helplessness.
• 28:03
  So the dog just sat in the corner and peed on itself and shook.
• 28:07
  And, you know, which is one of the reasons they don't do
• 28:10
  experiments like that anymore.
• 28:12
  But, but that's to, that's pressure to the point where we can't deal with it anymore.
• 28:18
  And the vast majority of situations that we are in day to day don't
• 28:26
  have that level of pressure.
• 28:29
  We, we allow ourselves to feel that much pressure.
• 28:34
  But they, and that's kind of what I was talking about before, is, does this situa,
• 28:39
  is this, a friend of ours talks about it in terms of, is it, is this a situation
• 28:46
  or is this an, is this an emergency?
• 28:50
  Crissi McDonald: Yeah.
• 28:50
  Is it an event or an emergency?
• 28:52
  An event or an emergency event.
• 28:54
  Yeah.
• 28:55
  Mark Rashid: And the problem is, is that we see too many things as, as emergencies
• 29:00
  when they're actually just events.
• 29:02
  Hmm.
• 29:04
  So that's very true.
• 29:08
  So that's why while you were talking I was, I was thinking, I wonder if
• 29:11
  that was actually anxiety or if it was, or if it was pressure because you
• 29:18
  were able to come up with solutions pretty quickly it sounds like.
• 29:21
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, it is interesting that what you were
• 29:24
  talking about with which I said, well, that's stoicism stoic philosophy.
• 29:29
  One of the things that actually helped me come up with that and it's, it's,
• 29:33
  it's stoic saying, and I, I, I dunno whether it's Epictetus or whether
• 29:37
  it's Marcus Aurelius or both or what or what, but it's one of them.
• 29:41
  I think and I've often found this one is really helpful when I'm freaking out,
• 29:46
  is this doesn't have to be something.
• 29:50
  It's only something if I make it something
• 29:54
  mm-hmm.
• 29:55
  Rupert Isaacson: Which I think could be qualified with.
• 29:58
  This could appear to be something.
• 30:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 30:01
  Rupert Isaacson: But it may not be something if I take a second look,
• 30:10
  it's fair to say I think that many.
• 30:13
  Horse owners and people in general have been trained into over amygdala, you
• 30:18
  know, anxiety, good work, where, as you say, events are seen as emergencies.
• 30:26
  Reading the stoics is helpful, and of course meditation is helpful and so on.
• 30:29
  But in people's day-to-day lives and their day-to-day interactions with their horses,
• 30:36
  what are some of the things that you found have really helped you guys?
• 30:40
  Because there must have been times in your lives when you were a bit
• 30:42
  more amygdala than you are now.
• 30:45
  And what were the exercises that you set yourself to go through that you found
• 30:51
  cumulatively over the years have helped you unlearn that way of looking at things?
• 30:58
  Do you want, do you wanna kick off with that, Chrissy?
• 31:00
  'cause I know you've, you, you, you've had your relationship with anxiety and so
• 31:06
  on, so do you wanna lead with that one?
• 31:09
  Crissi McDonald: Sure.
• 31:11
  So the practices that I have mostly have nothing to do with horses.
• 31:17
  It is,
• 31:20
  you know, I read all these articles and it, and it always basically
• 31:23
  comes back to good diet, good sleep, good exercise, and good connection.
• 31:29
  Hmm.
• 31:31
  Crissi McDonald: So shaping my life to prepare for myself in a way
• 31:39
  that I can receive those each day.
• 31:43
  You know, good connection, good sleep, good nutrition good movement.
• 31:49
  And, you know, I really enjoy reading your books because they talk about
• 31:55
  things as they used to be, you know, people as they used to be.
• 31:58
  You introduce us to people in societies who aren't ours, and it's
• 32:03
  a different way of looking at life.
• 32:06
  But I feel that it's all fundamental to all of us, you know?
• 32:09
  Sure.
• 32:09
  Wherever we live, wherever we're born, whatever language we speak, we
• 32:14
  need connection, movement, good food, and you know, a way of looking at
• 32:19
  the world that is more seeing it as a whole, not just our little slice.
• 32:26
  So I'm also interested in stoicism.
• 32:30
  I like, I've read Marcus Aurelius and Tic, I can never say his name
• 32:35
  Rupert Isaacson: because I think there's no one right way to pronounce it.
• 32:37
  That's because none of us really to pronounce that.
• 32:39
  Yeah.
• 32:40
  Crissi McDonald: So, so what that looks like on a day-to-day basis is, you know,
• 32:43
  I, I try to get as good sleep as I can.
• 32:46
  I tailor my diet to my body's needs, and we move a lot.
• 32:51
  And then Mark and I are together a lot.
• 32:54
  So that's the connection.
• 32:55
  I keep in touch with friends.
• 32:56
  This is a good connection we're having today.
• 32:58
  So this really is very nourishing.
• 33:01
  Mm-hmm.
• 33:02
  Crissi McDonald: And then by the time we get to the horses, I'm already
• 33:04
  so well resourced that if something goes hap, you know, if something goes
• 33:10
  sideways that I feel like I can manage it, there are days when that is not the
• 33:15
  case and I still have to go to work.
• 33:17
  So on those days, the bar gets really low, you know, can I be of service to people?
• 33:23
  I may not be able to really work with my horse in the way I want to, but can
• 33:28
  I show up just for this eight hours?
• 33:31
  Can I show up for myself and for the people who are here?
• 33:37
  So it, yeah.
• 33:39
  Most of the practices have nothing to do with horses.
• 33:41
  It's, it's like what Mark was saying before is how do we live our lives and
• 33:47
  then how do we take that to our horse?
• 33:50
  And I'm, you know, I'm saying this in about five minutes, but act in actuality
• 33:53
  it's been about 20 years that I have put together this way of going or
• 34:00
  this way of being that works for me.
• 34:02
  And, and it's not as though it got rid of anxiety.
• 34:04
  I just have a less contentious relationship with it now.
• 34:07
  Right.
• 34:09
  Crissi McDonald: Yeah.
• 34:10
  And now, right now what I'm doing is exploring creativity.
• 34:13
  So I just ordered watercolors and paints and paper and I've been
• 34:16
  drawing and, i've been reading about how creativity can actually
• 34:20
  take, take us out of our amygdala.
• 34:23
  So, and, and you know, all this too, from your work with the
• 34:28
  Rupert Isaacson: kids as Kima said, for happiness, practice the arts.
• 34:31
  Crissi McDonald: Yes.
• 34:32
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 34:33
  Crissi McDonald: Yes.
• 34:34
  So that's, I think that's yeah, 20 years distill down into
• 34:39
  10 minutes before we, we, we
• 34:40
  Rupert Isaacson: go to to, to Mark's thoughts on this though, when you, you,
• 34:43
  you run these intensives where people, you know, come to you for 10 days
• 34:47
  and so on, and these are horsemanship things as well as life things.
• 34:52
  So a lot of these people, of course, are coming with anxiety because they're
• 34:56
  coming outta the world that we live in.
• 34:58
  So what are your, when, when you meet them, you say, okay, for this eight
• 35:03
  hours, here I am, I'm available.
• 35:05
  What's your,
• 35:08
  do you have some starting rituals?
• 35:12
  Crissi McDonald: Well, the first thing we do is we start in the dojo.
• 35:16
  So there's movement and breathing.
• 35:19
  And the major component of our time with people is verbally and non-verbally
• 35:27
  reassuring them that they're safe.
• 35:30
  I mean, as safe as you can be with horses, but it's creating an environment where
• 35:35
  they are safe to express themselves.
• 35:38
  It's the same thing we want for horses.
• 35:39
  Hmm.
• 35:40
  So there's joking and laughter and.
• 35:43
  Reassurance and, you know, letting people know that everything's
• 35:46
  okay, that it's gonna be fine.
• 35:50
  And then we have a meeting in the afternoon and we've had several
• 35:54
  meetings like this recently where we, we'll go around and ask people what
• 35:57
  we do like to do while you're here.
• 35:58
  Mm-hmm.
• 36:00
  And
• 36:01
  Crissi McDonald: you can, you can feel the anxiety, you know, my horse doesn't
• 36:05
  do this thing and I didn't do this thing.
• 36:06
  Or my horse, when he goes to canner, he bucks and I've come
• 36:09
  off six times and I broke.
• 36:10
  You know, you go around, but genuine
• 36:13
  Rupert Isaacson: concerns, right?
• 36:13
  Yeah.
• 36:14
  Crissi McDonald: Yeah.
• 36:14
  And there's, you know, 12 people there and, and you can just feel the
• 36:17
  anxiety churning through the room.
• 36:20
  Mm-hmm.
• 36:21
  Mm-hmm.
• 36:21
  Crissi McDonald: And it's really interesting because then when it's
• 36:24
  our turn to talk, you know, either Mark or I'll say, you don't have to
• 36:27
  ride today and you don't even have to ride the whole 10 days you're here.
• 36:32
  If you feel safe on the ground and you and your horse are doing great, stay on
• 36:36
  the ground it and, and the whole, you can feel a whole room go, oh, thank God.
• 36:43
  It's really, really interesting how it's the pressure, right?
• 36:46
  The pressure that then we take into anxiety.
• 36:50
  I have to, I'm here for 10 days.
• 36:52
  I made the space, I paid the money, and I need to get stuff done.
• 36:56
  And what we come in and say is, is it doesn't have to be that way.
• 37:02
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 37:03
  Of course you have that little bit of anxiety in the back of your
• 37:06
  mind going, well, gosh, I hope I give these people value for money.
• 37:08
  And you know, if they come here, you know, am I going to give them what they need?
• 37:12
  And you know, and I certainly go through that Yes.
• 37:14
  Clinic.
• 37:15
  Yes.
• 37:16
  I do
• 37:16
  Crissi McDonald: too.
• 37:17
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 37:17
  How do, what, what do you do about that?
• 37:19
  So every do my best.
• 37:20
  You say to somebody look, you don't have to ride, but you know,
• 37:23
  they really, really want to.
• 37:24
  And you know that if they go away without having ridden
• 37:28
  up, they will be disappointed.
• 37:29
  And,
• 37:32
  but it might be the right thing for them not to not easy.
• 37:38
  Not easy.
• 37:39
  Yeah.
• 37:39
  Crissi McDonald: But there are lots of things we can do that lead up to
• 37:42
  riding and it may end with them riding.
• 37:45
  Yeah.
• 37:45
  Right.
• 37:45
  So we're not gonna, we're not gonna say, oh, you have to work.
• 37:50
  You know, you have to lead your horse for 10 days.
• 37:53
  Right.
• 37:53
  Crissi McDonald: Let's lead your horse and see how they do tacking up.
• 37:56
  Let's see if, how you feel after you've been breathing for a couple days.
• 38:00
  Let's see.
• 38:01
  I, I find in our 10 day clinics, it takes about four to five
• 38:04
  days for people to unwind.
• 38:06
  Yeah.
• 38:06
  And then the second week is when a lot of the work that they're
• 38:11
  wanting to do comes through.
• 38:12
  It's, it's really interesting to watch the dynamic of each group and
• 38:17
  to watch that unwinding process.
• 38:21
  Rupert Isaacson: I could see how much of what you're doing.
• 38:23
  I love the fact that you started in the Dojo.
• 38:24
  How much of what you, you guys are doing is done out in nature?
• 38:28
  And if so, what sort of nature?
• 38:30
  Crissi McDonald: All, all of it.
• 38:31
  We're outside majority of the time,
• 38:34
  Rupert Isaacson: but there's outside.
• 38:36
  There's outside, you know what I mean?
• 38:37
  There's ki and you are there in Colorado, so there's a lot of outside yeah.
• 38:42
  For you to make, take advantage of.
• 38:43
  Like how do you use the nature?
• 38:45
  Mark Rashid: We that's an interesting thing because the ranch that we work
• 38:49
  off of, or we work out of is 115 acres.
• 38:54
  And some of it's developed and some of it isn't.
• 38:58
  And so when I say developed, you know, there's, you know, fenced
• 39:06
  pastures and things are cross fenced and, and but there's a ton
• 39:11
  of trails on the, on the grounds.
• 39:15
  And a lot of the folks that come to us are struggling with
• 39:22
  fear issues or some kind of.
• 39:26
  Anxiety issues or their horses are, Hmm.
• 39:30
  Or both?
• 39:31
  We, I mean, we've had people whose horses were really struggling and
• 39:34
  the people weren't really that much.
• 39:36
  They just kind of accepted that this is how my horses and, and, and other
• 39:42
  people whose horses were fine and they were struggling and, you know, and
• 39:47
  kind of everything in, in between.
• 39:51
  And we just, we basically tell folks from the get go two things.
• 39:54
  One of the things that we say is that misery is optional.
• 39:59
  Okay,
• 40:00
  Mark Rashid: that's cool.
• 40:00
  So if you wanna be miserable, that's fine, but you don't have to be so that we give
• 40:07
  them permission on the very first day.
• 40:10
  You know, if you wanna, if you want to take the afternoon
• 40:13
  off, take the afternoon off.
• 40:15
  If you, if you're, if you need to use the restroom, use the restroom.
• 40:19
  If you're hungry, get something to eat.
• 40:21
  Take care of yourself.
• 40:22
  You wanna sit in the shade, sit in the shade, whatever it does, that part of
• 40:26
  it, you know, it's, it's your time.
• 40:29
  It's bought and paid for.
• 40:30
  You take care of yourself.
• 40:32
  So we give them permission right off the bat to, to just be okay being there.
• 40:40
  There is, we don't have any there's no structure to what we do in
• 40:45
  other, well, there's a structure if you want to call it that, but.
• 40:48
  We, we work with each, everybody as an individual.
• 40:52
  We don't do anything as a group other than ride together.
• 40:56
  And we have a, a huge arena and the arena's, I don't know,
• 41:00
  maybe an acre or a half acre.
• 41:02
  It's a huge arena.
• 41:04
  And so one end of the arena is for people who wanna, you know, do trot and canner.
• 41:11
  The other end of the arena is for folks who wanna do just walk and trot,
• 41:15
  there's a round pen in the arena.
• 41:17
  So ev you know, we, we can keep our eyes on everybody.
• 41:21
  And we tell 'em that you can ride out if you want.
• 41:24
  There's trails and a lot of the folks will go out and hike the trails first.
• 41:29
  Mm.
• 41:30
  Mark Rashid: And then eventually they might go out and ride the trails.
• 41:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 41:34
  Depending on how they feel.
• 41:35
  There's a big loop around the, the arena.
• 41:39
  It's on a road, but it's, you know, it's kind of in the forest.
• 41:43
  And a lot of the ri, a lot of the people that show up who didn't think
• 41:47
  that they would be able to ride out of a, an arena, and by the way, the, the
• 41:52
  arena doesn't have a fence around it, so they end up going out and riding
• 41:59
  that big loop either by themselves or with other, with other folks.
• 42:04
  So we, you know, kind of let people get comfortable with the
• 42:11
  things that they want to do.
• 42:14
  In their own time with our guidance, basically.
• 42:23
  Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're
• 42:25
  considering a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider
• 42:30
  taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs.
• 42:34
  Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original
• 42:40
  Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and
• 42:46
  developed in conjunction with Dr.
• 42:49
  Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists.
• 42:52
  We work in the saddle with younger children.
• 42:56
  Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
• 43:02
  It works incredibly well.
• 43:03
  It's now in about 40 countries.
• 43:06
  Check it out.
• 43:07
  If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement
• 43:11
  method, which gets a very, very similar effect, but can also be
• 43:14
  applied in schools, in homes.
• 43:16
  If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do
• 43:21
  at home that will create neuroplasticity.
• 43:24
  when they're not with you.
• 43:26
  Finally, we have taquine equine integration.
• 43:30
  If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a
• 43:33
  really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin
• 43:37
  in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult.
• 43:41
  So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this
• 43:45
  also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being.
• 43:49
  And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
• 43:53
  am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they
• 43:57
  need, as well as Serving my clients.
• 44:00
  Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base
• 44:05
  absolutely gives you this.
• 44:07
  Quick thought, is being of service to people itself a cure for anxiety?
• 44:16
  Crissi McDonald: Oh, yes.
• 44:18
  Mark Rashid: I would say so.
• 44:19
  Crissi McDonald: Absolutely.
• 44:20
  Absolutely.
• 44:22
  Rupert Isaacson: And therefore, presumably back to your point to one's horse as
• 44:27
  well, showing up and okay, maybe I can't do that thing I was planning
• 44:32
  to do, but what does my horse need?
• 44:36
  And if
• 44:36
  Mark Rashid: a big, a big part of what we do is that people will come in
• 44:41
  with an agenda and we will help them understand where their horse actually is.
• 44:49
  And you know, these are, these are maybe the limitations that
• 44:54
  your horse has physically or emotionally or whatever it is.
• 45:02
  And then they learn how to deal with those things, either with other professionals
• 45:08
  that are on the ranch at the time.
• 45:11
  We have a, an amazing holistic vet that is there mm-hmm.
• 45:15
  Most of the time when we're there.
• 45:17
  And, is able to step in and help people with their horses.
• 45:21
  Rupert Isaacson: Is that is just living there or comes in
• 45:23
  specifically for your workshops or,
• 45:28
  Mark Rashid: I don't know.
• 45:29
  She's magical, so I don't, she doesn't live there.
• 45:32
  She
• 45:32
  Rupert Isaacson: manifests out of the birch trees, you know.
• 45:34
  Yeah.
• 45:34
  I mean, it's, it's,
• 45:36
  Mark Rashid: she's amazing.
• 45:37
  She is truly amazing.
• 45:39
  She's just this little, she tries to
• 45:40
  Crissi McDonald: schedule her.
• 45:41
  Yeah.
• 45:42
  She tries to schedule her visits when, when we're there,
• 45:44
  what's name, but she lives
• 45:45
  what, should we be aware of her?
• 45:46
  Crissi McDonald: Yes.
• 45:47
  Her name is Dr.
• 45:48
  Janet Varus.
• 45:50
  How do you spell Far Hus?
• 45:52
  Crissi McDonald: V-A-R-H-U-S-V-A-R-H-U-S.
• 45:56
  Okay.
• 45:57
  Crissi McDonald: Yeah.
• 45:57
  I can give you her email if you're interested.
• 46:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I'd love to.
• 46:01
  Sounds like someone I should be interviewing on the on the show here.
• 46:04
  Mark Rashid: She's pretty incredible.
• 46:07
  Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
• 46:07
  Mark Rashid: But anyway, she does have a tendency to schedule while
• 46:11
  we're there and she rides with us.
• 46:14
  She works on our horses and we, and we trade out time.
• 46:17
  So she comes to 10 day clinics, you know, having worked on our horses.
• 46:22
  We trade out the time.
• 46:24
  And but yeah, she's, she's just this little woman that
• 46:29
  goes around and fixes things.
• 46:31
  So, but anyway, that's part of the thing.
• 46:35
  It's, it's, you know, it's not.
• 46:39
  I think people come in, like Chrissy said earlier, assuming that
• 46:44
  these things are gonna happen and then they're gonna feel better.
• 46:50
  And what they actually do is they find out that there are this whole other
• 46:54
  set of things that don't have, don't seem to have anything to do with the
• 47:00
  things that they wanted to do, but by the time they leave, they're doing
• 47:04
  the things they wanted to by having addressed all of these other issues.
• 47:10
  Yeah.
• 47:10
  So, you know, that's, that's kind of our focus is, okay, what's
• 47:16
  the, what's the real issue here?
• 47:19
  You know?
• 47:20
  And then is there some way we can address that?
• 47:23
  Rupert Isaacson: Is everyone coming, coming with a quote
• 47:26
  unquote dilemma or problem?
• 47:30
  Or are some people just coming for the crack?
• 47:36
  Mark Rashid: Well, I go, I come for the crack.
• 47:38
  I know that.
• 47:42
  No, I would say I would say there's probably a majority of, I would say
• 47:48
  if we have 10 riders, I would say maybe eight of the 10 might have
• 47:55
  some kind of an issue that they're have, that they're struggling with.
• 47:58
  Rupert Isaacson: That has brought them to you, that they've made the
• 48:00
  decision to come to you because of this.
• 48:02
  Right.
• 48:02
  So interesting.
• 48:03
  A lot of anxiety to some degree has brought them to you.
• 48:07
  Mark Rashid: Yeah.
• 48:07
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 48:07
  Yeah.
• 48:07
  And,
• 48:08
  Mark Rashid: and, and a lot of folks come from overseas or they come
• 48:11
  from the other end of the country
• 48:12
  mm-hmm.
• 48:12
  Mark Rashid: And they don't bring their horses, so they ride ranch horses.
• 48:17
  And so they're trying to figure out maybe regaining confidence or
• 48:23
  figuring out how to do transitions cleaner or just improving their
• 48:27
  horsemanship, that kind of thing.
• 48:31
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 48:31
  It's, it's, it's interesting I just wrote down as you were saying that, that
• 48:35
  we get into horses in the first place
• 48:39
  because we feel they'll, they'll make us feel better.
• 48:42
  Right.
• 48:45
  As, as children we have this, this, this will answer a dream,
• 48:49
  a need will make me feel better.
• 48:52
  Mark Rashid: Or you don't even, like in my case, I didn't
• 48:54
  even know why I liked horses.
• 48:56
  Exactly.
• 48:56
  I just did.
• 48:57
  Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
• 48:57
  But you do, but you think this makes me feel better, the
• 49:00
  presence of this Absolutely.
• 49:02
  Visually there in the landscape.
• 49:04
  Mm-hmm.
• 49:05
  Rupert Isaacson: Then of course we get into riding and training and
• 49:08
  this and that and, and then we, my God, that's sort of anxious.
• 49:11
  It's good enough, it's not good enough.
• 49:12
  And then, and suddenly this thing that we got into in order to feel
• 49:17
  better is making us feel worse.
• 49:21
  And then you are there in service to help 'em to feel better again.
• 49:27
  In, in, in my position.
• 49:29
  I do have that to some degree as well with horse training, so on.
• 49:32
  But with the, the work we do with autism and anxiety and trauma, it's definitely
• 49:38
  people coming in not feeling good.
• 49:40
  And us saying, this horse and this nature will help you feel good.
• 49:47
  And then in the background, having to work out yes.
• 49:50
  But what aspects of it will, and it's really interesting.
• 49:54
  The, the reason I asked about trails in nature was in another, another
• 50:00
  thing that I was slightly forced into.
• 50:03
  When I began doing the whole horse boy thing, the property I
• 50:08
  did it on had no infrastructure.
• 50:10
  So there was no arena, there was no nothing.
• 50:11
  It was, it was just me with my kid in front of me riding around.
• 50:16
  And then later as the program grew and we had to train quite a
• 50:21
  few horses to do it, it's okay.
• 50:23
  Arenas are useful there,
• 50:26
  convenient when you have to do a lot of things with a lot of horses because
• 50:31
  that footing will be good even when the footing outside is not good.
• 50:34
  Okay.
• 50:34
  So we can agree that an arena can be a good thing, but an arena
• 50:37
  also, I feel carries a certain innate spirit of pressure with it.
• 50:43
  And because you think about what goes on in arenas, it's, it's
• 50:46
  focused attention, isn't it?
• 50:48
  And you also think the arena, like the Roman Arena, gladiatorial combat people
• 50:53
  being put to death, eaten by lions, you know, highly stressful events.
• 50:58
  And although I suppose if you're the public eating popcorn
• 51:00
  watching it, perhaps not.
• 51:01
  And they butchered to make a Roman holiday, you know, that
• 51:04
  Lord Byron Bower, the dying Gore.
• 51:07
  But I think inevitably, as soon as you enter an arena, you feel this.
• 51:13
  So we deliberately built our arena, our covered arena in Texas.
• 51:16
  'cause we needed shade, man.
• 51:18
  'cause it was, you know what Texas is like?
• 51:20
  Mm-hmm.
• 51:21
  Rupert Isaacson: So we built a cover, but it was only a cover and it was open
• 51:23
  at the side, so you could see into the woods and the kids could like hop off
• 51:25
  the horse and go off into the woods.
• 51:27
  And then we realized we needed to build trails that were circular loops because
• 51:31
  we had kids that were runners and they wouldn't run into a wall of ve vegetation.
• 51:36
  They'd sort of would, but they'd look back.
• 51:38
  And so you could like position someone there and, oh hey, how's it going?
• 51:42
  And the kid would just run back to you.
• 51:43
  Then when we came here, the amazing thing about Germany was access.
• 51:50
  If you see it, you can ride it and walk it.
• 51:53
  No one's gonna come with a gun and run you off.
• 51:56
  It's absolutely amazing.
• 51:57
  I've never experienced trail riding like this before.
• 52:01
  Sometimes the weather can be quite bad in the winter.
• 52:03
  So, there I'm in the arena, but now I'm sharing the arena with sometimes
• 52:09
  rather grumpy German people who, and then I'm thinking, oh gosh, now how am
• 52:14
  I gonna keep this kid emotionally safe?
• 52:16
  Well, I gotta get back out on the trail.
• 52:18
  And then coming to the realization, oh my gosh, well if autism is,
• 52:22
  you know, the difficulty with the relationship with the exterior world
• 52:28
  auto, the Greek word for the self autom selfism locked within the self.
• 52:33
  What am I doing in this arena?
• 52:34
  You know, I need to be out there where planet earth is, where all the things
• 52:38
  that this exterior world to the point that now even with the dressage,
• 52:46
  our entire thing is done in nature.
• 52:48
  It's just like, we call it dressage in nature.
• 52:50
  It's like, I'm not saying we'll never go into an arena, but it will
• 52:53
  be this much of the time, everything else that we'll do, even if it's
• 52:57
  like the Pifi P pii, Tempe Changey stuff, we're gonna do it out there.
• 53:04
  And why are we gonna do it out there?
• 53:05
  'cause it's gonna chill us out.
• 53:07
  And the horses have a tendency to go forward out there anyway.
• 53:10
  But they're happy, we're happy, we're engaged.
• 53:14
  But without even as naturey as I am, you know, without the kids kind of almost
• 53:21
  forcing me into that position, I wouldn't have come to the obvious conclusion.
• 53:24
  I.
• 53:25
  That, well, maybe it feels better out there.
• 53:29
  And then things like dressage, which can sometimes make people feel worse
• 53:34
  because of some anxieties that can come along with them, you can allay that by
• 53:40
  just going where you feel better and and that, that's even allowed, you know?
• 53:45
  So the fact that you're working like that and you, you mentioned, I was intrigued,
• 53:50
  mark as you were talking because you gave this mental picture of the geography of
• 53:54
  the place really well, of how the arena's laid out, and then this loop around
• 53:58
  it, and then these trails off from it.
• 53:59
  And then how people might walk the trails first and again, lay anxiety
• 54:03
  so there's no nasty surprises.
• 54:04
  You know, where you're gonna go, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah bum.
• 54:08
  But we know that many horse programs are not done like this in, in, in
• 54:13
  fact I'd say that because of the convenience of arenas a lot of
• 54:20
  ings, I would say leaves one feeling more anxious than one went went in.
• 54:25
  And I've certainly had that experience.
• 54:28
  Do you teach people, you guys, how to clinic, do you teach people
• 54:34
  how to use nature in these ways?
• 54:37
  Do you send them home with like a prescription saying, okay, lads, when you
• 54:42
  get home, get outta that fucking arena.
• 54:44
  You know, do this, do this, do this, do this.
• 54:46
  Like.
• 54:48
  Have you put weirdly a sort of a structure on that yet?
• 54:52
  Because I, I, I think from what you just described,
• 54:57
  some of those people coming to your clinics may not have that experience
• 55:00
  at home, and they may not take that back necessarily unless someone kind of
• 55:05
  grants them permission to in a weird way.
• 55:07
  Do you know what I mean?
• 55:08
  So, yeah.
• 55:10
  Do you make that explicit to them for the homework when they, when they go back?
• 55:16
  Perhaps?
• 55:16
  Crissi McDonald: We don't have anything specific like that.
• 55:21
  I think that's a fabulous idea what we, because of the nature of the property,
• 55:29
  you know, it's, it's set within, we have fields and we have forests, and we have,
• 55:33
  there's a creek that runs through it.
• 55:35
  Mm-hmm.
• 55:36
  Crissi McDonald: And it's very long so people can walk from one end to the other.
• 55:41
  I, from my point of view, what my hope is, is that by experiencing that and
• 55:49
  making that a practice for 10 days, that they will seek that out where they are.
• 55:55
  And sometimes we have discussions that, that elaborate on that, you
• 55:59
  know, just, they'll say, oh, I have to go back to the real world now.
• 56:03
  Right.
• 56:04
  Crissi McDonald: Well, this.
• 56:05
  Isn't any less real than the one you're in.
• 56:09
  It's just there's been a space created for you to explore different things,
• 56:17
  and it was your choice to explore different things that doesn't leave
• 56:21
  just because you leave the property.
• 56:24
  Hmm.
• 56:24
  Crissi McDonald: So, we'll, sometimes our discussions get into that realm, but I
• 56:31
  really, I really appreciate what you're saying about nature and I, I agree.
• 56:35
  We don't spend enough time in it.
• 56:37
  I, I, I feel very fortunate because Mark and I get to spend a lot of time outside.
• 56:42
  If you're with horses, it's what you do so
• 56:46
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, if you are getting out of the arena.
• 56:47
  Yeah.
• 56:48
  Yeah.
• 56:48
  Crissi McDonald: Yes.
• 56:49
  Yes.
• 56:49
  I'll let Mark chime in now.
• 56:53
  Mark Rashid: Well, like Chris, you said we don't, we don't really do,
• 56:58
  we don't really give people homework.
• 57:00
  Generally speaking, it's a pretty transformative experience for people.
• 57:08
  Hmm.
• 57:08
  Mark Rashid: That is not our goal.
• 57:11
  Our goal basically is to help where we can and, and hopefully then things are
• 57:21
  better when they, when they go away.
• 57:24
  So, so for me, the.
• 57:28
  That is always my, that's always the thing that's in, in the, in the
• 57:33
  front of my mind is how can we help here and what can we do to help you?
• 57:40
  And we have assistant instructors and every day we get together with
• 57:46
  them at the end of the day and we talk about, okay, who did we get to?
• 57:51
  Who did, who did we get to today?
• 57:54
  So, you know, we wanna make sure that everybody gets, gets some
• 57:59
  time with at least one of us.
• 58:03
  But we, we basically just go from one student to the next student.
• 58:08
  We just rotate all of us through.
• 58:11
  And so folks are getting maybe the same information in a different way.
• 58:18
  And so something that I might say might not resonate, but somebody, something
• 58:22
  that Chrissy says basically going in the same direction might resonate instead.
• 58:30
  And so, you know, and we, we basically, we, we very seldom will
• 58:35
  spend more than about 10 or 15 minutes at a time with any one student.
• 58:41
  Sometimes it'll be more than that if they really need it.
• 58:44
  But before we can then we'll move off of them and go to another student.
• 58:50
  And so they make it 15 minutes of instruction.
• 58:55
  Then maybe another 20 minutes to work on it by themselves where there's no
• 59:00
  pressure from any, nobody's watching 'em.
• 59:04
  They can just work on it on their own.
• 59:08
  And then just maybe just as they start feeling a little overwhelmed, somebody
• 59:13
  shows up, one of the instructors will show up, give 'em another 10 minutes,
• 59:19
  and then they get to do, and so that's kind of how it works with us.
• 59:24
  It's very low pressure of any kind really, other than the
• 59:30
  pressure that folks are feeling.
• 59:32
  But even that starts to dissipate within the first few days usually, you know, plus
• 59:38
  we spend the first three mornings in the dojo and that just getting people back
• 59:44
  in their bodies makes a big difference.
• 59:47
  Rupert Isaacson: You said we don't really have a structure, and then you said,
• 59:50
  well actually we do have a structure.
• 59:51
  And then you've, what you've described actually does sound quite structured,
• 59:56
  but what I think perhaps I'm getting from that is what you're saying
• 1:00:01
  is the structure is not presented
• 1:00:07
  in a pressure full way.
• 1:00:09
  Can you talk to me about structure, how you got, because
• 1:00:13
  without structure one is lost.
• 1:00:15
  You know, everything does have structures.
• 1:00:17
  Nature has structures.
• 1:00:19
  How do you, what structures do you have and how do you, have you
• 1:00:23
  evolved them and how have you evolved them not to feel pressure full
• 1:00:29
  Mark Rashid: well, it's interesting 'cause one of the things we tell
• 1:00:31
  folks is that softness without structure is not softness.
• 1:00:37
  Hmm.
• 1:00:37
  I'm not sure what it is, but it's not softness.
• 1:00:40
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:00:41
  Mark Rashid: So there has to be, even with softness, there has to be structure.
• 1:00:46
  So, you know, we can just say, you know, how many, how many muscles
• 1:00:53
  are you using to do to pick your, your coffee cup off the table?
• 1:00:59
  You know, if you're using more muscle than it, than you need to use to
• 1:01:03
  pick that cup up, you're not soft.
• 1:01:06
  Right.
• 1:01:07
  But you're, but there's, even if you're, if you're only using the muscles you
• 1:01:11
  need, there's still structure there so that you can pick the coffee cup up.
• 1:01:14
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:15
  So that's the first thing is that I, I couldn't agree more
• 1:01:20
  that ev their structure and everything, including softness.
• 1:01:25
  Rupert Isaacson: Ooh.
• 1:01:25
  And so, okay.
• 1:01:26
  The structure of softness.
• 1:01:29
  Mark Rashid: Yes.
• 1:01:29
  Rupert Isaacson: Talk Yeah,
• 1:01:30
  please.
• 1:01:31
  More.
• 1:01:34
  Mark Rashid: Well,
• 1:01:37
  when we very first started this conversation, one of the things that
• 1:01:41
  you mentioned was, am I soft enough?
• 1:01:43
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:45
  Mark Rashid: And so people will have a tendency to take that to
• 1:01:48
  the extreme where they're not, for instance, even picking their reins up.
• 1:01:55
  Yeah.
• 1:01:55
  Mark Rashid: Because they feel that's being, that they're having, that's, you
• 1:01:58
  know, so they put a big loop in their reins, and that's them having soft hands.
• 1:02:03
  But it's not, it's just they're having a big loop in their reins.
• 1:02:08
  Soft hands is, is the ability to pick up the reins and feel all the way
• 1:02:14
  through the horse, through the reins.
• 1:02:19
  To me, the problem I think that a lot of folks have is that
• 1:02:24
  they either use too much tension pressure, or they don't use enough.
• 1:02:33
  And so instead of, instead of saying to somebody, just turn your reins
• 1:02:41
  loose, and then that's soft, that's.
• 1:02:45
  Well, you might be soft, but there's no structure there, there's no connection.
• 1:02:49
  And then of
• 1:02:49
  Rupert Isaacson: course, if you do move your hand, it's like an amplifying wave.
• 1:02:52
  Yeah.
• 1:02:52
  By the time it does actually hit the horse's mouth, it's
• 1:02:55
  Mark Rashid: a big Oh yeah.
• 1:02:56
  I mean, you've got so much momentum picked up.
• 1:02:58
  Yeah.
• 1:02:58
  You know, you've got three feet of rain there.
• 1:03:00
  Yeah.
• 1:03:01
  Mark Rashid: You gotta take up three feet of slack.
• 1:03:03
  You, it's gonna, you're just gonna magnify the issue.
• 1:03:06
  Yeah.
• 1:03:07
  Mark Rashid: So, you know, there are times where we'll say,
• 1:03:10
  let's, let's shorten your reins.
• 1:03:13
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:14
  Mark Rashid: I'm not saying get in your horse's mouth, I'm just saying get closer.
• 1:03:19
  And then, like we talked about earlier, we'll spend time with them
• 1:03:25
  feeling each other through the reigns with my, myself, maybe
• 1:03:30
  on one side, them on the other.
• 1:03:34
  And I can't tell you how many times I've heard somebody say
• 1:03:38
  that was, that was so subtle.
• 1:03:40
  I I never knew that It could be that subtle, you know, when, when we're
• 1:03:45
  talking about a release mm-hmm.
• 1:03:48
  For instance, and a release, a lot of folks have been taught
• 1:03:51
  to just throw the reins away.
• 1:03:53
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:03:54
  And in fact, that's effectively what the word in English means.
• 1:03:58
  Almost a complete letting go.
• 1:04:00
  It's a deceptive word release, really.
• 1:04:03
  Mark Rashid: Right.
• 1:04:04
  But the release can be something as small as feeling Mm.
• 1:04:09
  The tension in a muscle.
• 1:04:11
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:04:13
  Mark Rashid: Relaxing a little bit.
• 1:04:15
  Hmm.
• 1:04:16
  Mark Rashid: And, but you can't do that.
• 1:04:19
  You can't feel that if you aren't there.
• 1:04:22
  Yeah.
• 1:04:22
  Mark Rashid: You can't feel that ever so slightly, that horse trying to relax
• 1:04:28
  that muscle, just that little bit.
• 1:04:30
  You can't feel it.
• 1:04:31
  So that's when we're talking about softness with structure, it's about
• 1:04:36
  actually stepping in and, and becoming part of the, part of the situation.
• 1:04:47
  And that's why I think one of the, the problems that, I wouldn't say
• 1:04:51
  it's a problem, but it's one of the things I think that folks struggle
• 1:04:55
  with is that they, I think that, you know, you're in a situation and what
• 1:05:00
  you wanna do is you wanna keep the situation at arms length and you're
• 1:05:05
  outside of the situation, you're putting yourself outside of the situation.
• 1:05:11
  But by stepping into the situation now you can become part of it.
• 1:05:15
  And now you have some, you know, you can offer some direction, you can, you
• 1:05:20
  can help when you're in, it's really difficult to do when you're outside.
• 1:05:28
  Not sure if that answered your question or not, but
• 1:05:30
  Rupert Isaacson: it does.
• 1:05:30
  It just raises some more questions, which I'm gonna, yeah.
• 1:05:35
  Chrisy.
• 1:05:37
  Crissi McDonald: So I'll, I'll go to the, I'll start with the.
• 1:05:41
  Mundane, if you will, structure.
• 1:05:43
  So breakfast is at eight, dojo is nine to 12.
• 1:05:47
  I was gonna ask
• 1:05:47
  Rupert Isaacson: because I'm, you know, I need to know what, yeah,
• 1:05:49
  Crissi McDonald: here's, here's, this is like the structure, right, of the
• 1:05:52
  10 day clinic, and then we have lunch from 12 to one, and then we're with
• 1:05:57
  our horses from about one to three 30.
• 1:05:59
  And then we have a meeting at the end of the day and we talk to
• 1:06:02
  everybody about what they learned and what they like to work on the
• 1:06:05
  next day, and we answer questions.
• 1:06:08
  So that's the structure.
• 1:06:09
  And Mark and I are pretty good at keeping that.
• 1:06:15
  The structure of the structure, we don't often run over.
• 1:06:19
  We keep things flowing through the day so people can have the
• 1:06:24
  experience they need to have.
• 1:06:26
  But within that, there are a billion permutations of what can happen.
• 1:06:33
  You know, people could be in the dojo for an hour, but then they need a break.
• 1:06:36
  They could be in the dojo all morning, but then they don't wanna
• 1:06:40
  start riding right at one o'clock.
• 1:06:41
  They wanna let their lunch settle.
• 1:06:43
  So within the structure, you know, like Mark was saying, desire is optional.
• 1:06:48
  What that means is, is yes, we have this schedule, but you are in no
• 1:06:53
  way or shape or form required to do every second of every minute
• 1:06:57
  of every day of that schedule.
• 1:06:59
  You know, the, we have 10 to 12 different people, 10 to 12 different horses.
• 1:07:04
  And so to me it's a lot like art.
• 1:07:06
  You know, you.
• 1:07:07
  Paint a picture and you have the structure of the, the frame, right?
• 1:07:12
  Or photography.
• 1:07:14
  But you can put anything you want on that canvas.
• 1:07:17
  You can throw paint at it, you can paint something like Monet.
• 1:07:22
  So I think structure in some sense allows us to be unstructured.
• 1:07:26
  It's, I think Picasso said learn the rules like an, like a pro.
• 1:07:30
  So you can break them like an artist.
• 1:07:32
  Mm.
• 1:07:32
  I think that's the quote.
• 1:07:34
  I really like that.
• 1:07:36
  Mm, I do too.
• 1:07:36
  We
• 1:07:37
  Crissi McDonald: learn the rules first so we can break them.
• 1:07:40
  That's the, ah, that I don't know.
• 1:07:43
  That's the joy in life really.
• 1:07:46
  Rupert Isaacson: W when we we're training people to do the work with
• 1:07:49
  autism, say what, you know, what we're saying often is, look, some this
• 1:07:53
  kid frequent is coming in without an understanding of top-down instruction
• 1:07:57
  without, and feeling somewhat lost in the world, including in their own body.
• 1:08:01
  So if we impose structures on them that make no sense, all that's going
• 1:08:05
  to do is cause amygdala, explosions and not gonna get us anything.
• 1:08:11
  Right.
• 1:08:11
  With someone who's already amygdala's, already really active.
• 1:08:15
  And then in the early years with what we were doing, people often criticized us
• 1:08:19
  saying, well, you guys have no structure.
• 1:08:21
  And I was like, no, we do, we have a lot of structure, but it's invisible.
• 1:08:25
  Meaning that
• 1:08:28
  my structure shouldn't be the kid's problem.
• 1:08:31
  Like you are coming to have a therapy session.
• 1:08:34
  Now, that's not a nice message for a kid because that's saying
• 1:08:39
  to the kid, you need therapy.
• 1:08:41
  There's something wrong with you.
• 1:08:43
  I've never yet met a kid that said, I want therapy.
• 1:08:46
  You know, I've met kids that say they'd like to play.
• 1:08:49
  So we call them play dates.
• 1:08:51
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:08:51
  So there's a, a structure right there, which is to choose a different
• 1:08:55
  language that sounds less shaming, I don't know, or less shit, you know.
• 1:09:02
  And then within that structure we have these guidelines and the
• 1:09:06
  first one is follow the child.
• 1:09:08
  And there's kind of three main ways of doing this, but
• 1:09:11
  without that, you have nothing.
• 1:09:12
  But that is a guideline that is a structure that is a compass.
• 1:09:17
  So, but of course, you know, following the child might mean, say the kid gets
• 1:09:24
  up on the horse 10 seconds and wants down again, or takes three months to
• 1:09:29
  get on a horse or never gets on a horse.
• 1:09:32
  Doesn't matter.
• 1:09:33
  What we're after is neuroplasticity.
• 1:09:35
  We can do more than horses, but if we use the horse, it's good
• 1:09:39
  to use it in a certain way.
• 1:09:40
  That seems to optimize it.
• 1:09:41
  So here's the structure.
• 1:09:43
  So I'm often trying to get the message across that a
• 1:09:47
  structure should be invisible.
• 1:09:50
  Like for example, let's look at Mark.
• 1:09:52
  Mark has a structure.
• 1:09:55
  He's got a skeleton and he's also got these muscles and he's got
• 1:10:00
  these arteries and veins and nervous system and a lymphatic system.
• 1:10:03
  And things are moving around in very kind of an ordered way.
• 1:10:07
  But you're not really aware of that.
• 1:10:08
  You're aware of Mark and, and you have a sort of an emotional aesthetic
• 1:10:12
  reaction to the entity of Mark.
• 1:10:14
  But if you look at him again, you notice, oh, he's got, look, he's got cheekbones.
• 1:10:18
  'cause I can see a little shadow under there and I can see that, you
• 1:10:22
  know, his, he's got these two eyes with a brow here and I become a
• 1:10:25
  bit more aware of his structure but
• 1:10:30
  only in sofar as it allows me to interact with this thing called
• 1:10:36
  Mark who can walk around and show me what to do with a horse.
• 1:10:38
  'cause if he didn't have this structure, he'd be sort of weird.
• 1:10:41
  Blobby Mark, who was sort of organs displaced here and there.
• 1:10:47
  Boneless chicken.
• 1:10:48
  Mark Rashid: Boneless chicken mark.
• 1:10:49
  Rupert Isaacson: Indeed, indeed.
• 1:10:50
  Which, you know, maybe after a long hot bath, I don't know,
• 1:10:53
  bottle of whiskey, but yeah.
• 1:10:55
  But the, then they also say, well they need boundaries.
• 1:10:59
  And I say, yeah, but people so often forget that or, or seem to assume
• 1:11:04
  that a boundary means a barrier.
• 1:11:07
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:11:07
  And
• 1:11:07
  Rupert Isaacson: the problem with barriers I've always found
• 1:11:09
  is that they, they don't work.
• 1:11:10
  I mean, you shut the door.
• 1:11:12
  I can kick it down.
• 1:11:13
  You get behind a wall, I can blow it up.
• 1:11:16
  You build a fence, I can jump it or, that's quite fun actually.
• 1:11:19
  Or, and I can certainly.
• 1:11:21
  Break it a window.
• 1:11:23
  Mm.
• 1:11:23
  Break that and probably hurt myself at the same time.
• 1:11:26
  So barriers almost invite the challenge of, I wanna bust that because we have
• 1:11:31
  this innate desire for freedom, but I feel like a, a boundary is like, say an
• 1:11:37
  epidermis, like this thing I've got, if as I drink more beer, it expands with me.
• 1:11:45
  When I go on the dry for a little bit, it sort of contracts with me a bit.
• 1:11:49
  If I cut it, it heals itself.
• 1:11:51
  If I go out on a hot day, it will let enough moisture through to cool me,
• 1:11:55
  but if I go out on a cold day, it will close off enough to keep my heating.
• 1:11:59
  But it's very porous and cell membrane, you know, and elastic to cope with things.
• 1:12:05
  And
• 1:12:08
  of course, in the horse world as well as in the therapy world, we're often told no,
• 1:12:12
  there are these very, very rigid rules.
• 1:12:14
  And even within dressage, you know, the, the first, they've got the training
• 1:12:17
  scale, six point training scale.
• 1:12:19
  The first one is rhythm.
• 1:12:20
  Everyone agrees on that, blah, blah.
• 1:12:21
  And then everyone forgets the second one.
• 1:12:24
  The second one is relaxation.
• 1:12:26
  It's like, where did that go?
• 1:12:29
  You know?
• 1:12:29
  Yes.
• 1:12:30
  Where did that go?
• 1:12:32
  Yeah, well, I can find it more easily in the forest than I can in the arena.
• 1:12:36
  So maybe,
• 1:12:38
  maybe
• 1:12:38
  Rupert Isaacson: it's there, but it's certainly not there
• 1:12:40
  without someone yelling at me.
• 1:12:42
  So it's, it's, it's intriguing to me that you seem to have come to a
• 1:12:45
  somewhat similar conclusion where you, you, you give a framework,
• 1:12:49
  but within that framework you are endlessly flexible and at the same
• 1:12:56
  time you want to be of service.
• 1:12:57
  So if somebody does come in saying, I'm really having problems with my cancer
• 1:13:01
  transition or something like that, you, you do feel that sense of okay, well I
• 1:13:07
  want to honor that need and desire and I would like for you to leave after 10 days
• 1:13:12
  feeling that you have the tool for that.
• 1:13:17
  Dance me through.
• 1:13:18
  I think, 'cause I think a lot of people when they're trainers beginning in
• 1:13:25
  this, what field as well as therapists, they fe put a lot of pressure on
• 1:13:29
  themselves to give that value.
• 1:13:32
  And again, that comes from a good place that comes from an honorable place.
• 1:13:37
  But of course it puts on more anxiety and more stress.
• 1:13:39
  And so when you are giving people stuff to work on and then going away, of course
• 1:13:47
  as we know, sometimes they can work on it in a way that can compound the problem.
• 1:13:52
  And then you maybe come back to them 20 minutes later.
• 1:13:54
  You could find them in a state of disorder or you could find them in a
• 1:13:59
  state of, oh yes, I've achieved it.
• 1:14:03
  You made it sound very easy.
• 1:14:05
  It's not easy.
• 1:14:07
  We know it's not easy.
• 1:14:08
  So how do you, how do you do that?
• 1:14:10
  How do you, how do you show somebody something per perhaps, quite
• 1:14:13
  complex, leave them alone for a bit and come back and have faith that
• 1:14:19
  Yeah, they've probably, they're probably on a positive trajectory.
• 1:14:26
  It's quite intriguing.
• 1:14:27
  Please talk us through it, how you do that.
• 1:14:31
  Mark Rashid: For myself, I don't let people get off the track.
• 1:14:36
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:14:38
  Mark Rashid: So if I, for instance, if I'm, I work with somebody for 10, 15
• 1:14:43
  minutes during that time, I may explain something and I will ask them if they
• 1:14:50
  understand what I, what I explained.
• 1:14:55
  They may say that they understand they wanna please you, and the
• 1:15:01
  their face says, I don't get it.
• 1:15:03
  Yeah.
• 1:15:05
  And I will oftentimes, I'll say that,
• 1:15:08
  okay,
• 1:15:09
  Mark Rashid: you know, in a, kind of, in a, in a joking way, I'll say, well, I, I
• 1:15:12
  heard you say yes, but your face says no.
• 1:15:15
  So which one of these is, well, I don't really get that one part.
• 1:15:20
  Okay, all right, well, let's go over it.
• 1:15:22
  Right.
• 1:15:23
  And, and we explain to people that it's important that if you're
• 1:15:28
  not getting something, make sure to let one of us know, because.
• 1:15:33
  It doesn't help for you to be a little bit lost, then get off track
• 1:15:38
  and then, you know, and then we spend three days trying to get you back.
• 1:15:43
  But in general, what I will do is I will usually we're either horseback
• 1:15:49
  or on foot, depending on the day.
• 1:15:51
  And so what we might work with somebody, they say, they get it, looks
• 1:15:56
  like they get it, they'll go off.
• 1:16:01
  And while I'm working with the next person, I will be
• 1:16:03
  keeping an eye on that person.
• 1:16:05
  Okay.
• 1:16:07
  Mark Rashid: And if it looks like we're getting off track, I will excuse
• 1:16:10
  myself from this person and go back.
• 1:16:13
  Or if there's somebody closer that isn't doing something, I might, you
• 1:16:22
  know, say their name, one of the instructors, and then I will say the name
• 1:16:28
  of the person and that's all I'll say.
• 1:16:32
  And then that person will go directly to that, that rider.
• 1:16:37
  So, we have ways that we kind of work around those things so that, so that
• 1:16:45
  people never really get off track too far.
• 1:16:50
  We try not to let that happen too much if we can help it.
• 1:16:54
  Yeah.
• 1:16:55
  No, that's fair.
• 1:16:56
  Chrissy.
• 1:17:01
  Crissi McDonald: For me it comes down to the
• 1:17:06
  innate belief that we are all capable.
• 1:17:11
  Hmm.
• 1:17:12
  Crissi McDonald: And we can all learn.
• 1:17:16
  Hmm.
• 1:17:16
  I, I, I just, I have such faith, especially people
• 1:17:19
  who show up to our clinics.
• 1:17:21
  They, for the most part, are so open.
• 1:17:25
  They come, they wanna learn something.
• 1:17:28
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:17:28
  Maybe they have an issue, maybe they don't, but that desire to improve
• 1:17:33
  themselves so that they can have a better relationship with their horse, Rupert.
• 1:17:38
  That, that's what keeps me going.
• 1:17:41
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:17:41
  That
• 1:17:42
  Crissi McDonald: is people showing up saying, you know, I'm doing this
• 1:17:44
  thing and I know I'm doing this thing and, but I don't know how to not do
• 1:17:49
  this thing and I'm hoping for some ideas, or I'm hoping for some help.
• 1:17:55
  And so, you know, when you, you work a lot, it sounds, I you probably work
• 1:18:00
  with adults too, but you also work.
• 1:18:02
  I do.
• 1:18:02
  You probably work with more kids?
• 1:18:03
  Way more kids.
• 1:18:04
  I, I'd say
• 1:18:05
  Rupert Isaacson: honestly, it's, it's half and half because we
• 1:18:07
  have this other program called ta, which is all adults, so, yeah.
• 1:18:12
  Okay.
• 1:18:12
  Yeah.
• 1:18:13
  Crissi McDonald: Yeah.
• 1:18:13
  Adult learning is very different.
• 1:18:15
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:18:16
  Crissi McDonald: We have so much more internal baggage, you know, like
• 1:18:19
  anxiety and what comparing ourselves and
• 1:18:24
  Rupert Isaacson: why is a thumb not coming on my screen.
• 1:18:25
  As you said, we all have baggage.
• 1:18:30
  It's just, yeah.
• 1:18:32
  It's, we have all these speed bumps in
• 1:18:33
  Crissi McDonald: ourselves, right?
• 1:18:34
  We're like, oh, I've been riding for 20 years, but I can't do X or whatever it is.
• 1:18:40
  It's, it's a lot of what Mark and I do is just tell people, you know, you're okay.
• 1:18:45
  Yeah.
• 1:18:45
  Crissi McDonald: Your horse is fine.
• 1:18:47
  Here's some things that we can tweak.
• 1:18:49
  Yeah.
• 1:18:49
  You
• 1:18:49
  Crissi McDonald: know, maybe get your horse some body work.
• 1:18:51
  Maybe you get some body work.
• 1:18:53
  You know, when it, when it comes right down to it, we create an atmosphere
• 1:18:57
  of it, it's going to be fine.
• 1:19:00
  It's, we'll, we'll figure it out.
• 1:19:02
  Whatever it is, we're here to help.
• 1:19:05
  And I, I have a lot of faith in that.
• 1:19:08
  Does that mean that sometimes after I'm teaching I go, I don't think I made a
• 1:19:16
  damn bit of difference that I, I will, I will have days when I give my best
• 1:19:22
  and it doesn't feel like it's enough.
• 1:19:23
  Hmm.
• 1:19:24
  And those are the days when I really have to practice.
• 1:19:28
  If they didn't get it from me, they will have gotten it from one
• 1:19:31
  another instructor or mark that it is not solely my job to give them
• 1:19:36
  the perfect piece of information.
• 1:19:38
  It's my job to show up.
• 1:19:39
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:19:40
  Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
• 1:19:43
  I'm guessing you are, then you've probably also always wondered a little
• 1:19:48
  bit about the old master system.
• 1:19:51
  of dressage training.
• 1:19:52
  If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
• 1:20:01
  exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
• 1:20:07
  of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
• 1:20:14
  well being of the horse and the rider.
• 1:20:17
  Intrigued?
• 1:20:18
  Like to know more?
• 1:20:19
  Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
• 1:20:24
  Check out the free introduction course.
• 1:20:26
  Take it from there.
• 1:20:27
  That does help, I guess that.
• 1:20:29
  Brings us to the question of tribe.
• 1:20:32
  You know, one of the things when I'm, when I'm teaching the horse
• 1:20:35
  training stuff, the dressy stuff, is I point out to people that that
• 1:20:38
  whole system was evolved by tribes.
• 1:20:41
  Tribes on the step.
• 1:20:43
  And it was families, you know, grand and granddad are directing it.
• 1:20:50
  Mom and dad are sort of doing it and the kids are helping.
• 1:20:53
  And it's a cyclical thing, gen intergenerational.
• 1:20:57
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:20:57
  And if one goes to, so we now have this, this, this program called riots
• 1:21:03
  and, and, and creating a riots club.
• 1:21:05
  Our IATS riding is a team slash tribal sport.
• 1:21:11
  And that all of the fancy stuff, if you go to any of the sort of famous
• 1:21:17
  dressage schools in the world, what you'll see is a bunch of blokes
• 1:21:21
  now also women working together.
• 1:21:24
  It's usually two to three per horse at a time with the young horses.
• 1:21:28
  Because one person can take the front part, one person can take the back
• 1:21:31
  part, one person can take the middle, and it helps the horse to understand
• 1:21:34
  more fluidly and quick, quicker.
• 1:21:35
  But that's just simply the old way off, the step now being done in fancy clothes.
• 1:21:40
  And when I realized that I say, oh my gosh, of course.
• 1:21:44
  So if you, if someone comes to my say, well, I can't say who
• 1:21:47
  trained any one of our horses.
• 1:21:48
  I, I, I know that we did, but there is a conception as you know, I.
• 1:21:54
  Within the horse world that it, the responsibility is
• 1:21:57
  on you as the horse trainer.
• 1:21:59
  It's a lot of pressure to somehow train your horse when in the ancient
• 1:22:05
  world, no, no, no one did it like that.
• 1:22:08
  It just didn't happen that way.
• 1:22:11
  And that the more effective you get at it where you're like,
• 1:22:14
  well, I guess I could do that.
• 1:22:16
  Yeah.
• 1:22:16
  If I had to.
• 1:22:17
  You realize that's a last resort, not a first resort.
• 1:22:20
  But it's very difficult because people are in isolation and even if they're
• 1:22:25
  in a, a, a boarding barn, they might be in isolation, one can be in isolation
• 1:22:31
  and still be surrounded by people.
• 1:22:32
  It seems that what you are doing is actually giving people that tribal context
• 1:22:38
  and where we began, I'm not saying it's the only thing you're doing, but one
• 1:22:41
  of the great things you're doing is that where we began this conversation
• 1:22:44
  with softness, it's easier to feel soft when you're getting oxytocin and
• 1:22:50
  support from a good group of community.
• 1:22:53
  You, you mentioned community, you know, and connection again, is this
• 1:23:00
  explicit in, in the teachings when pe I know you say don't wanna give people
• 1:23:04
  homework, but they are gonna go away, you know, back to that real world.
• 1:23:10
  And often that real world is somewhat isolated.
• 1:23:13
  Right.
• 1:23:14
  And what they found with you is that connection.
• 1:23:17
  I.
• 1:23:19
  Do you talk about that and, and, and how to find that?
• 1:23:23
  Mark do you wanna wanna kick off with that?
• 1:23:25
  Because a lot of people do feel they're on their own and
• 1:23:27
  that sort of are on their own.
• 1:23:29
  Yeah.
• 1:23:30
  Mark Rashid: Well,
• 1:23:32
  yeah.
• 1:23:33
  I mean, the, a lot of the folks that come to us
• 1:23:37
  do feel that way.
• 1:23:40
  And, you know, when they come, they come in and everybody's perfect strangers.
• 1:23:46
  Well, nobody's perfect, but they're, you know, they're, nobody knows
• 1:23:51
  the, any, anybody else when they come in and, you know, and I'm, I'm
• 1:23:56
  sure that you experience this too, but by the time they leave, you
• 1:24:00
  know, they've got lifelong friends.
• 1:24:02
  Yeah.
• 1:24:03
  And they stay connected that way.
• 1:24:04
  Yeah.
• 1:24:05
  And that's, you know, they'll be, at lunchtime, we all have lunch together
• 1:24:11
  and, you know, they'll be, they'll be putting, you know, their emails in
• 1:24:17
  a group thing, you know, and Right.
• 1:24:19
  So the tribe
• 1:24:20
  Rupert Isaacson: finds itself basically.
• 1:24:21
  Yeah.
• 1:24:22
  Mark Rashid: Yeah.
• 1:24:23
  That is, that is not something that we even think about doing when they come
• 1:24:29
  in and it's just organically happens.
• 1:24:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:24:33
  Mark Rashid: And I think it helps that, you know, it's, we're talking about
• 1:24:36
  like-minded people that are coming in.
• 1:24:40
  These are folks that maybe, like you say, felt isolated and then.
• 1:24:46
  You know, it reminds me a lot of the, the summit that we were all at Yeah.
• 1:24:53
  With Warwick Summit where we, we all came in as individuals and we left as friends.
• 1:24:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:25:00
  And you know, and we've stayed in contact and, and that kind of thing.
• 1:25:06
  And, and, you know, I, I know for myself, I kind of felt isolated in what I was
• 1:25:13
  doing and how we, how I was doing it, and have felt that way for a long time.
• 1:25:18
  Yeah.
• 1:25:19
  Mark Rashid: But after that, it felt like, you know, I, I don't
• 1:25:24
  feel that way so much anymore.
• 1:25:26
  Hmm.
• 1:25:27
  And so on a, you know, it happens even at that level, you know, the
• 1:25:34
  kind of, the level that we are at, if you want to call it that.
• 1:25:38
  And, but it's that, it's that connection.
• 1:25:41
  It's that want or, or need to be around like-minded people.
• 1:25:48
  Yeah.
• 1:25:49
  Mark Rashid: Even though they may be, somebody might be isolated, may be
• 1:25:52
  living, we had a gal at one of the clinics that was living on a little
• 1:25:56
  piece of property on the Mexico border by herself, nobody around for miles.
• 1:26:05
  And she came in and, and she felt so much better because there
• 1:26:09
  were people she could talk to.
• 1:26:11
  Yeah.
• 1:26:12
  You know, so I.
• 1:26:13
  It's, I think it's a byproduct of, you know, I know for us, you
• 1:26:20
  know, we're just trying to offer some kindness to people and Mm.
• 1:26:23
  And hope that you know that it makes a difference.
• 1:26:28
  Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting that you say that, and you say that
• 1:26:31
  with a shrug of your shoulders as if, well, you know, that's all we do.
• 1:26:33
  It should be sort of obvious, but that is not the norm.
• 1:26:40
  Horse training, the, the world of it, it, it, kindness is not an explicit
• 1:26:49
  ethic on the training scale.
• 1:26:51
  People would say, it might say, oh, well, that, that should be implicit, but
• 1:26:56
  of course it's not because we inherit the whole thing from the military model
• 1:26:59
  where of course he screamed at people and made them fall off because that's how
• 1:27:03
  you prepare them for stress in battle.
• 1:27:05
  So your sergeant gets in your face and screams at you.
• 1:27:08
  If you're an infant in infantry and your sergeant yells at you and makes you fall
• 1:27:12
  off if you're in the cavalry because they're trying to train you for that.
• 1:27:18
  We've inherited it and e and it's, it's subtly there through so much of
• 1:27:23
  the, and not just through the horse world, through the therapy world too,
• 1:27:26
  I feel, because it's, because the hierarchies of hospitals, medicine,
• 1:27:33
  psychiatry there's a power structure.
• 1:27:36
  And
• 1:27:39
  so the fact that you say
• 1:27:43
  we are just off trying to offer some kindness that's
• 1:27:47
  actually quite revolutionary.
• 1:27:51
  Sort of a bit of an act of rebellion, really
• 1:27:56
  seriously.
• 1:27:57
  Mark Rashid: Well, it's, it's what I grew up with.
• 1:28:01
  You know, I, since I was a kid working with horses, that's what I grew up with.
• 1:28:06
  I grew up with somebody offering kindness, not just to the horses, but
• 1:28:12
  to the people and, you know, so that is what I've endeavored to, to do Yeah.
• 1:28:21
  In, in my career.
• 1:28:23
  And, um Hmm.
• 1:28:26
  You know, and it, I've found that it works.
• 1:28:31
  So,
• 1:28:34
  Chrisy, did you have anything?
• 1:28:35
  Yeah,
• 1:28:41
  Crissi McDonald: I love this.
• 1:28:42
  Talk about tribe and community because it's not in my consciousness
• 1:28:50
  what little I know about it.
• 1:28:52
  I've probably read in your books, Rupert, but I like the idea.
• 1:28:59
  I.
• 1:28:59
  That because I know as people, we are community connection.
• 1:29:03
  Tribal
• 1:29:05
  Yeah.
• 1:29:05
  Crissi McDonald: Beings, no matter how we insist.
• 1:29:07
  Yeah.
• 1:29:08
  Even if we live in a high rise in New York, we're, we
• 1:29:11
  can't escape our evolution.
• 1:29:14
  Yeah.
• 1:29:14
  And, and how we're put together.
• 1:29:16
  And I'm really enjoying this discussion about how, you know, we
• 1:29:21
  create community or we create this tribe even if it's only for 10 days.
• 1:29:26
  Well, sometimes those connections last for years between people and, you know,
• 1:29:31
  mark and I have nothing to do with that.
• 1:29:32
  That's the, the people coming together and finding each other.
• 1:29:36
  And that is another favorite part of my job is watching friendships form from
• 1:29:42
  people who never would've met otherwise.
• 1:29:44
  You know, you have someone from California and someone from
• 1:29:46
  Vermont, and now they're friends.
• 1:29:49
  I mean, we need that.
• 1:29:50
  We need that in the world.
• 1:29:52
  And so to me, yes, it's a horse clinic and it's also more than that.
• 1:29:59
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:30:00
  It's interesting you were talking earlier about showing up and saying, well,
• 1:30:02
  what, what does my horse need today?
• 1:30:05
  You know, can I do that?
• 1:30:07
  And now we're at what does the human need today?
• 1:30:11
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:30:11
  Rupert Isaacson: And maybe
• 1:30:14
  for the people who are not currently at a Mark and Chrissy clinic or sitting
• 1:30:21
  around the transfers in the Kalahari.
• 1:30:26
  Perhaps the question then is,
• 1:30:29
  how can the horse and this equestrian life serve you?
• 1:30:36
  You know, this thing of what do you need today?
• 1:30:40
  So, for example, I often think I need, well, I used to often think that I
• 1:30:47
  needed to go and work on something with my horse, but I always knew in
• 1:30:54
  the back of my mind that if I went out for a trail ride and popped a fence
• 1:30:58
  or two, I would feel really good.
• 1:31:02
  And if I did this difficult technical thing, I might or might not.
• 1:31:08
  And I made a separation in my mind between those two things.
• 1:31:13
  And then I realized that's stupid.
• 1:31:15
  Why can't I do the technical thing on the trail?
• 1:31:18
  And why can't I bring a sense of the trail into the arena?
• 1:31:22
  So, and again, it was autism that helped me with this.
• 1:31:26
  We were working in Ireland in with this amazing man called David
• 1:31:30
  Doyle, who I hope you meet one day, who is also an autism dad, who's,
• 1:31:36
  I, I feel he's the modern incarnation of the Wizard.
• 1:31:39
  Merlin basically does amazing things.
• 1:31:41
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:31:41
  And he started this place called Li Skin at Farm based first around his daughter.
• 1:31:45
  And it's grown into a huge, wonderful thing.
• 1:31:48
  And, we, the arena got built and we began to fantasize about how we
• 1:31:55
  could make the arena over to bring nature inside on days where the
• 1:32:01
  weather was just really, really rough.
• 1:32:02
  And okay, we're gonna work inside.
• 1:32:04
  So we came up with the idea of buying trees and having forest that you
• 1:32:10
  could set up in the arena, you could bring it in on hand carts and the
• 1:32:16
  kids could even, or the adults could create the forest as they wished.
• 1:32:20
  And then you could ride in this forest and if it was Christmas, you could
• 1:32:24
  Christmas trees, you know, whatever.
• 1:32:26
  And then you could dismantle it just like you would your jumps,
• 1:32:28
  you know, and take 'em outside.
• 1:32:30
  And there they are.
• 1:32:31
  They sit along the side of the arena, so they look quite nice along the wall.
• 1:32:35
  And we thought, oh, this is a no brainer.
• 1:32:39
  And then we went from there to, oh, but what if the arena was a beach, you
• 1:32:42
  know, and setting up couches and throw, throw down a rug and having a little
• 1:32:47
  cast iron thing we could put a fire in and did it, you know, while horsey
• 1:32:51
  stuff or therapy stuff is going on around and, oh, this is a no brainer.
• 1:32:57
  And then we went out to teach it and it was amazing the
• 1:33:01
  resistance we got with that one.
• 1:33:03
  It was really interesting.
• 1:33:04
  It's like, wow, here is like, it is guaranteed happiness.
• 1:33:08
  It's gonna make you feel good.
• 1:33:09
  It's just gonna make you feel good to get some trees and put them in the arena.
• 1:33:12
  Just try it.
• 1:33:13
  It's, it makes you happy.
• 1:33:14
  It's hard not to or to put a couch in there and lounge around on it, you
• 1:33:20
  know, while someone else is lunging up there or helping a kid down there.
• 1:33:24
  Just try it.
• 1:33:25
  So it was very interesting and what I realized was that we do actually
• 1:33:29
  stand in the way of our own happiness.
• 1:33:31
  A lot, a lot, a lot, a lot.
• 1:33:34
  And when you, so you create tribe, you do this tribe in nature.
• 1:33:42
  There you are, as you say, explicitly in your own mind offering kindness.
• 1:33:48
  When you find people arguing against their own happiness, which I'm sure
• 1:33:53
  they do, despite the framework that they've come into, how can they not?
• 1:33:59
  Because it's, it's a, how do you help people to not talk
• 1:34:07
  against their own happiness?
• 1:34:11
  Mark Rashid: Misery is optional.
• 1:34:12
  Rupert Isaacson: Misery is optional.
• 1:34:14
  But you, what if someone's taking that option?
• 1:34:18
  Mark Rashid: Misery is optional.
• 1:34:21
  That's the thing is that we're, we're here to help.
• 1:34:26
  And some people.
• 1:34:31
  Aren't in a place where they can accept it.
• 1:34:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:34:35
  Mark Rashid: So we might let them
• 1:34:40
  do what they need to do.
• 1:34:42
  It's 10 days, so we aren't in any rush.
• 1:34:46
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:34:47
  You have time for an evolution, I guess.
• 1:34:48
  Yeah.
• 1:34:49
  Mark Rashid: Yeah.
• 1:34:49
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:34:50
  Mark Rashid: And if we don't push on it a lot more times than not, I don't,
• 1:34:55
  I can't really think of anybody.
• 1:34:59
  Chrissy might be able to think of somebody where they, where they
• 1:35:03
  went away, not in a better place.
• 1:35:08
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:35:10
  Mark Rashid: I can't think of anybody.
• 1:35:12
  I'm sure there is, but I can't think of anybody right off hand.
• 1:35:17
  Most of the people we see are return people, you know, either coming back
• 1:35:23
  to improve what they've already done or they're bringing another horse that
• 1:35:26
  they're struggling with or whatever.
• 1:35:28
  So in situations, oftentimes we just, and we kind of make light of it, you know?
• 1:35:36
  We might even say that to somebody if they're, if they're really struggling
• 1:35:40
  and they're kind of bumping up against their, their themselves, you know, we
• 1:35:44
  might even just, you know, like in a meeting or something, somebody might
• 1:35:49
  just say, well, mis misery's optional, you know, it's whatever, you know.
• 1:35:54
  We, and by making light of it, a lot of times people come to their
• 1:36:00
  own decision that I'm, you know, maybe I'm being a little, maybe
• 1:36:04
  I'm getting in my own way here.
• 1:36:07
  And then they're able to kind of open up and feel a little better.
• 1:36:12
  And we've, that doesn't happen very often, but when it does, it's, it's
• 1:36:18
  usually seems to just smooth itself out.
• 1:36:22
  I don't know.
• 1:36:22
  Chrissy, do you have anything to that you would say about that?
• 1:36:29
  Crissi McDonald: I think that, I think the same thing that most of the
• 1:36:35
  people who come to us leave in a, in a lighter place than when they arrived.
• 1:36:43
  You know, and we do watch a fair amount of people beat themselves
• 1:36:47
  up or be hard on themselves.
• 1:36:50
  This is so interesting that you mentioned the military background and
• 1:36:53
  that, you know, we have to be mean and bullying in order to prepare for war.
• 1:37:00
  And we've taken part of that and injected it into training people
• 1:37:05
  who will probably never go to war.
• 1:37:07
  Horses who will never go to war.
• 1:37:10
  But that war still comes with some people.
• 1:37:12
  They, they come at war with themselves.
• 1:37:13
  And so it's hard, it's hard not to be at war with their horse.
• 1:37:19
  I think a lot of what we do because we're not therapists and we don't have
• 1:37:23
  a therapy arm we're all horse trainers.
• 1:37:26
  Yeah.
• 1:37:26
  So we have a, a line that we don't cross because we're not qualified.
• 1:37:33
  Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
• 1:37:33
  Crissi McDonald: So we can, I'm not a
• 1:37:34
  Rupert Isaacson: therapist by the way, but it doesn't mean that, it doesn't
• 1:37:37
  mean that what you do is not therapeutic.
• 1:37:40
  Crissi McDonald: Correct.
• 1:37:41
  So, I, like Mark was saying, I think kindness goes a long way.
• 1:37:45
  Yeah.
• 1:37:45
  I think, you know, not laughing at them, but maybe laughing with them
• 1:37:50
  is helpful and it's, it really is.
• 1:37:56
  Mark and I are always saying, you know, it's gonna be okay.
• 1:37:59
  Yeah.
• 1:37:59
  We'll, we'll figure this out.
• 1:38:01
  It's going to be okay.
• 1:38:02
  And so having someone in this case with the 10 day clinic, maybe
• 1:38:07
  four or five, someone saying, you know, we'll, we'll figure it out.
• 1:38:12
  That alone, I think takes away some of that dynamic.
• 1:38:17
  Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
• 1:38:17
  That sort of feeling of, look, I, I absolutely believe in you and I.
• 1:38:21
  Mark Rashid: Yeah,
• 1:38:22
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
• 1:38:22
  Mark Rashid: yeah.
• 1:38:23
  And just, just by saying we, it's an inclusive thing, you know?
• 1:38:28
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:38:28
  It's, you're not in this by yourself here.
• 1:38:31
  You know, we're, we're all in it together.
• 1:38:34
  So
• 1:38:38
  Rupert Isaacson: one of the things which I found was massively useful
• 1:38:41
  for me so that's now what I.
• 1:38:43
  Do is I create school master horses that people can sit on.
• 1:38:47
  So if you wanna understand these fancy, dressy things, here's a horse.
• 1:38:54
  He's gonna do it for you, happily give you the feel.
• 1:38:59
  So you can't now tell me that you can't do that thing you because you just did it.
• 1:39:03
  Look, there, there it is now.
• 1:39:06
  Okay.
• 1:39:06
  And they'll say, you know, but you created it.
• 1:39:07
  It's not, it's cheating.
• 1:39:08
  It's like, well, no, it's not cheating.
• 1:39:10
  It's like, it's a, you're allowed to have a learning curve, you know,
• 1:39:14
  you're allowed to start somewhere.
• 1:39:16
  And I didn't come out of my mother's womb knowing this stuff.
• 1:39:19
  I, you know, and it was sitting on horses that knew it, that I realized,
• 1:39:22
  you know, and then working on the ground with horses that knew it.
• 1:39:24
  And then little by little, and of course all the old masters say, you
• 1:39:29
  know, whether it's, or Stein or any of these people said, take your beginner
• 1:39:37
  student and put them on your best horse on the first day in PFA so that they
• 1:39:41
  can feel it, and then gradually bring them up to the level of that horse.
• 1:39:45
  And that it's quite rational.
• 1:39:48
  Do you have horses that people can sit on and feel out?
• 1:39:51
  Like, do you have some, some absolute reliables, like, I've got a couple
• 1:39:57
  of horses that were like old married couples, you know, and it's like,
• 1:40:02
  okay, you know, please work with this.
• 1:40:05
  You know, he, he, he, he's gonna show you, don't, don't listen to me.
• 1:40:07
  Just let zag show you, you know.
• 1:40:09
  Or does it work in a different dynamic where you show people how to
• 1:40:15
  bring that side of their horse out?
• 1:40:17
  Or both Just intrigued.
• 1:40:19
  'cause everyone has their own ways of doing things.
• 1:40:23
  Each tribe has its own culture, I guess.
• 1:40:25
  Hmm.
• 1:40:29
  Mark Rashid: Chrissy, you wanna go?
• 1:40:31
  Crissi McDonald: I was gonna ask you if you wanted to go, but I can go.
• 1:40:34
  Some of the horses at the ranch that we have are really good at
• 1:40:43
  being clinic horses for people, and they will figure out who that
• 1:40:49
  person is and respond accordingly.
• 1:40:53
  So they're not Yeah, they're not horses that you, you put someone
• 1:40:57
  on and, and they just mindlessly go through the motions, right?
• 1:41:00
  Yeah.
• 1:41:00
  They will adapt to who, whoever they're working with.
• 1:41:03
  Some of those horses are braier than others.
• 1:41:05
  Some are softer than others.
• 1:41:07
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:41:07
  And so depending on the student and what they're wanting to learn, we can say,
• 1:41:11
  okay, this, this is how it feels if a horse is soft and that that's, yeah.
• 1:41:18
  Not just through the reins, but also how does it feel when you're.
• 1:41:22
  Around the horse or sitting on the horse?
• 1:41:24
  How do they, what, what resonance are, you know, what, what are
• 1:41:28
  you getting inside your own body?
• 1:41:30
  Hmm.
• 1:41:30
  Sometimes we'll let them ride our horses.
• 1:41:33
  That, that's a rare occurrence.
• 1:41:35
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:41:36
  Especially now because we're bringing horses along to get to that point.
• 1:41:40
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:41:40
  Crissi McDonald: But yes, we do have some horses where we can say, all right,
• 1:41:44
  here's, here's a horse who's bracey, maybe similar to your horse, and we can
• 1:41:49
  show you how to help soften that brace or, you know, kind on this horse and
• 1:41:56
  then you can take it back to your horse.
• 1:41:59
  So, yeah.
• 1:42:00
  We have something, we have something similar.
• 1:42:04
  Mark Rashid: Yeah.
• 1:42:04
  They,
• 1:42:07
  what I say is that they just won't, they won't give it away.
• 1:42:10
  Yeah.
• 1:42:11
  So there's some horses there.
• 1:42:12
  Like Christie said, that when you get on 'em, you know, horses are really
• 1:42:16
  good at teaching people how to ride the way that the horses always been ridden.
• 1:42:22
  And so they will, you'll get on a specific horse that has been ridden with some heavy
• 1:42:34
  hands, and that'll be the first thing that they offer when the rider gets on.
• 1:42:41
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:42:41
  Now, but they also know the other thing.
• 1:42:44
  They also know how to soften and.
• 1:42:47
  Carry themselves nicely.
• 1:42:49
  And, but a, a lot of those horses on the ranch are horses that have been rehabbed.
• 1:42:55
  Okay.
• 1:42:56
  Mark Rashid: And so, our
• 1:42:59
  our basic, basically our, our head assistant instructor is our
• 1:43:04
  senior assistant instructor is the trainer there at the ranch.
• 1:43:09
  So she's, she spends a lot of time working with these horses.
• 1:43:13
  So anyway, they will, somebody might get on and if the horse offers a brace, now
• 1:43:18
  the person's, you know, backing the brace up, you know, so now the two of them.
• 1:43:25
  And so that's when we can step in and go, okay, so somebody has to be the
• 1:43:29
  adult here and that's gonna be you.
• 1:43:33
  So here's how we're gonna do this.
• 1:43:35
  And that's when we talk about, you know, one of us getting on one end of the reins
• 1:43:41
  and the rider being on the other, showing them what the feel to get there, what
• 1:43:46
  it feels like, and then put the two of them together so that they can come to
• 1:43:52
  an understanding between the two of them.
• 1:43:56
  And then there's other horses that you could put anybody on and
• 1:43:58
  they will be soft and com, you know, and fine to be able to go.
• 1:44:04
  And so usually with folks who are struggling with anxiety.
• 1:44:11
  Kind of things.
• 1:44:12
  You know, those are the horses that they might get right off the bat.
• 1:44:16
  People who are are more interested in developing more skill, we might give them
• 1:44:22
  a different horse to work towards the end goal, whatever it is that they want.
• 1:44:30
  Rupert Isaacson: Again, it sounds to me what you're describing as tribe,
• 1:44:32
  horse Tribe, it's a horse tribe.
• 1:44:34
  Mark Rashid: Mm-hmm.
• 1:44:35
  Rupert Isaacson: That will welcome you in and will that the horse
• 1:44:40
  tribe is not just the people.
• 1:44:41
  Right.
• 1:44:42
  It's the equines within that tribe who will help you.
• 1:44:48
  And it's so interesting to me how generous horses are that way.
• 1:44:52
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:44:53
  And as you say, with rehabbing, you know, in the therapy horse
• 1:44:56
  world, as you know, people donate horses for a reason frequently.
• 1:45:02
  'cause they've messed them up physically.
• 1:45:05
  Well, you know, and
• 1:45:06
  Mark Rashid: they do, they do a lot of therapy work there.
• 1:45:08
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:45:09
  They,
• 1:45:09
  Mark Rashid: yeah.
• 1:45:10
  In fact, the owners came to see you in Texas, the owners of the ranch.
• 1:45:16
  Where did they
• 1:45:17
  Mark Rashid: Yeah.
• 1:45:18
  How long ago?
• 1:45:20
  Oh, it's a while.
• 1:45:22
  It's been a while.
• 1:45:22
  Yeah, it's been a while.
• 1:45:23
  I think it was right
• 1:45:23
  Crissi McDonald: after Horse Boy came out.
• 1:45:25
  Mark Rashid: Okay.
• 1:45:25
  Okay.
• 1:45:26
  But they, yeah, they came down specifically because they
• 1:45:30
  were getting into therapy work with the, with the horses, so,
• 1:45:35
  Rupert Isaacson: got it.
• 1:45:37
  Mark Rashid: Yeah.
• 1:45:37
  Yeah.
• 1:45:38
  Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's a thing.
• 1:45:39
  I mean, when your average therapy horse, you donation horse mm-hmm.
• 1:45:44
  You have to rehab them.
• 1:45:46
  And then after a while we realized that the rehabbing of
• 1:45:50
  the horse was its own therapy.
• 1:45:52
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:45:52
  Rupert Isaacson: And and then we got caught in what we thought it
• 1:45:55
  was a, you know, a time conflict of, oh my gosh, well how are we gonna
• 1:45:57
  find the time to rehab these horses because we, God serve these kids.
• 1:46:00
  And they're like, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.
• 1:46:03
  The clients can absolutely do the rehabbing.
• 1:46:05
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:46:06
  Yes.
• 1:46:07
  Rupert Isaacson: In hand work lunging, long reigning, yes, yes, yes.
• 1:46:10
  Rebuilding.
• 1:46:12
  Why can't, of course they can do this.
• 1:46:15
  And then we started, and not only could they do it, they did it incredibly well.
• 1:46:21
  The horses loved them because they were coming with so much less ego.
• 1:46:25
  And then suddenly that became, oh, we were people with trauma or, and
• 1:46:30
  then we started working with the German Army and the US Air Force
• 1:46:33
  and just sort of found it something.
• 1:46:35
  But it's also, it all arose actually out of a time conflict of going,
• 1:46:38
  how are we gonna rehab these horses?
• 1:46:40
  You know, there's only three or four of us thinking about this.
• 1:46:43
  Wrong.
• 1:46:44
  But again, tribe,
• 1:46:48
  this might be, I know I would like to continue the conversation.
• 1:46:53
  Right.
• 1:46:54
  And it seems to me that where we started with softness and you, I think
• 1:46:58
  you guys have given some really good.
• 1:47:04
  Insights into how to find softness internally.
• 1:47:07
  And I think, I think it really comes down to kindness.
• 1:47:09
  I think you guys have actually made explicit that you, you do have a
• 1:47:14
  structure of kindness because it's kind to bring people into the doja
• 1:47:21
  and let them get together and start with that kind of getting comfortable
• 1:47:24
  in their bodies and in their minds.
• 1:47:25
  And it's kind to do it over 10 days so that people can have an evolution
• 1:47:32
  and it's kind to set them up so that they can sometimes work alone
• 1:47:37
  and sometimes have that support.
• 1:47:39
  And it's kind to set up a community, a tribe of these other instructors
• 1:47:46
  and so on and so forth, where actually everyone does get the support they need.
• 1:47:51
  'cause there's only one mark and only one Chrissy and 10 people.
• 1:47:54
  And so, yes, of course you need more people and blah, blah.
• 1:47:57
  And you provide all the structure and support that is kindness.
• 1:48:02
  And because people are coming in with anxiety and often
• 1:48:05
  unkindness to themselves, that's a learned thing in our society.
• 1:48:12
  And because tribe has come up in this conversation, what I'd like
• 1:48:18
  to address with your permission in the next one is loneliness.
• 1:48:23
  Hmm.
• 1:48:26
  Rupert Isaacson: You know, I think it's pretty clear that
• 1:48:29
  there's an epidemic of that.
• 1:48:31
  Those of us who are in the horse world, I think have a, an unusual
• 1:48:39
  solution for that
• 1:48:43
  because horses are things that do bring people to together.
• 1:48:47
  Yes.
• 1:48:51
  Hopefully for better, sometimes not.
• 1:48:56
  And how to begin to address that.
• 1:48:57
  And I think that putting this in the mind, I think making that conversation
• 1:49:01
  front and center again, this, this podcast is equine assisted world.
• 1:49:06
  We are being assisted by our equines.
• 1:49:12
  You don't have to be an autistic child or a
• 1:49:17
  returning veteran with PTSD to be suffering.
• 1:49:23
  And so you, you, you seem to have actually talked about giving people a way out of
• 1:49:32
  loneliness, perhaps without knowing it.
• 1:49:36
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:49:37
  Rupert Isaacson: As you said, it's a byproduct,
• 1:49:41
  but maybe it's time for it to be the product.
• 1:49:47
  Hmm.
• 1:49:48
  Rupert Isaacson: Because I think the need is is is there.
• 1:49:49
  'cause you know, the horses, they don't care that much at the end of the day.
• 1:49:52
  You know?
• 1:49:53
  I mean, if their can transition is clunky, I mean Yeah, it's nicer.
• 1:49:57
  It feels nicer for the horse, I suppose.
• 1:49:58
  Yeah.
• 1:49:59
  But that's more of a monkey thing, isn't it?
• 1:50:01
  You know, really, at the end of the day than a you, but we're monkey so Yeah.
• 1:50:06
  We want a nicer Yeah.
• 1:50:09
  But it was never the horse's idea to put a monkey on.
• 1:50:11
  Its back in the first place.
• 1:50:12
  Right?
• 1:50:12
  That's right.
• 1:50:14
  And then we put then we put our own monkeys on our own back.
• 1:50:16
  So, yeah.
• 1:50:17
  Rupert Isaacson: I'm kidding.
• 1:50:17
  And the horse was like, man, it's a lot of monkeys.
• 1:50:19
  Yeah.
• 1:50:19
  We're like monkey, monkey, monkey.
• 1:50:21
  Yeah.
• 1:50:22
  Yeah.
• 1:50:22
  Horses are saying, oh my
• 1:50:23
  Rupert Isaacson: God, I got some, I got some letters of
• 1:50:24
  apology to write to some horses.
• 1:50:27
  All those monkeys I brought.
• 1:50:29
  Yeah.
• 1:50:30
  Ruper.
• 1:50:30
  I wanted to
• 1:50:31
  Crissi McDonald: remark before I forget I wanted to remark on, you said that
• 1:50:34
  when you would go to barns and you would say, take a tree and put it in the arena.
• 1:50:39
  You know, make this a place where you can explore different things and
• 1:50:42
  different textures and sight and, and how much resistance there was to that.
• 1:50:48
  It is so indicative to me that we've lost the spirit of play and curiosity.
• 1:50:52
  Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
• 1:50:53
  And the resistance to happiness at all.
• 1:50:56
  Yeah.
• 1:50:56
  'cause it's unfamiliar, it's become Yeah.
• 1:50:59
  Unfamiliar.
• 1:51:00
  And we, well, it's like
• 1:51:00
  Crissi McDonald: the curiosity goes, goes out the window and curiosity and play.
• 1:51:06
  And that, that's also endemic to us.
• 1:51:09
  You know, we're talking about loneliness and these, and how we block ourselves from
• 1:51:13
  happiness, but we have things that, that.
• 1:51:16
  Our factory installed, you know, we come into the world with curiosity in play.
• 1:51:21
  And to hear that that is actively pushed against is really, you know, what a,
• 1:51:26
  what a remark on how we are not only as a assess as a society, but as horse people.
• 1:51:33
  You know, it's gotta be serious and we've gotta learn the right way.
• 1:51:35
  Like you said it, this canter to bar, it has to be within 0.5
• 1:51:39
  strides and the horse is going,
• 1:51:45
  you know, so it, it's very interesting to me that you, that you mention
• 1:51:49
  that story that it's so clear
• 1:51:52
  Mark Rashid: about Well, we get, we get good, we get good at what we practice.
• 1:51:56
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
• 1:51:56
  Crissi McDonald: yeah.
• 1:51:57
  We're gonna be serious with horses, you know?
• 1:52:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Oh, and I've been so, I've been so guilty of that, you know?
• 1:52:02
  Crissi McDonald: Oh, I have too.
• 1:52:03
  Absolutely.
• 1:52:04
  I, I'm,
• 1:52:05
  Rupert Isaacson: and not just with what, I mean, everything in my
• 1:52:07
  life, you know, I've done that.
• 1:52:09
  Crissi McDonald: Yeah,
• 1:52:10
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
• 1:52:11
  Of course.
• 1:52:11
  We've all done that thing.
• 1:52:12
  When you do it to your horses after a certain time, you ha, you kind of
• 1:52:18
  have to notice that they're not happy and you're pissing them off, you know?
• 1:52:24
  And when you've got that, when you've noticed that you
• 1:52:31
  can't unnoticed it, you know?
• 1:52:33
  Um mm-hmm.
• 1:52:34
  I think, I think for a, well one can actually be happily blind.
• 1:52:37
  I think I was for a long time.
• 1:52:39
  And then I went through a period of.
• 1:52:41
  Really not wanting to admit that I ever did anything wrong, you know?
• 1:52:46
  And then finally going, oh man, I think I'm, I think I'm pissing this.
• 1:52:51
  Oh fuck
• 1:52:52
  Crissi McDonald: yeah.
• 1:52:53
  Rupert Isaacson: You know?
• 1:52:54
  Alright, what do I do?
• 1:52:56
  Crissi McDonald: Yes, I did that too.
• 1:52:58
  I went from joyful and curious and loving horses into, it's very serious and they've
• 1:53:03
  gotta carry their head a certain way.
• 1:53:04
  And you use this equipment and you do this to make them go.
• 1:53:08
  It got very serious for a while.
• 1:53:10
  And then I started looking at the horses and my heart was breaking.
• 1:53:15
  'cause this was, this is not the vision I imagined in my head.
• 1:53:22
  You know, ha ringing and ears back and everything tight.
• 1:53:25
  And then you go the other way and you're like, okay, I'm not, we
• 1:53:28
  were talking about this earlier.
• 1:53:29
  I'm not gonna do anything.
• 1:53:30
  Yeah.
• 1:53:31
  Crissi McDonald: Well that, that's an option.
• 1:53:35
  I don't know that that it, but it's an extreme.
• 1:53:37
  Rupert Isaacson: It's an extreme.
• 1:53:38
  Crissi McDonald: It's an extreme.
• 1:53:39
  Right.
• 1:53:40
  And how often do we find happiness or joy at extremes?
• 1:53:44
  Rupert Isaacson: I think too, we might
• 1:53:45
  Crissi McDonald: find control.
• 1:53:46
  Rupert Isaacson: Yes, there can be, there can be a misdiagnosis of effort as stress.
• 1:53:54
  So now one thinks of, well, any effort is stress.
• 1:53:56
  And that's, well, yeah.
• 1:53:57
  Yeah, I suppose.
• 1:53:58
  But I mean, if I walked to the top of the mountain, 'cause I chose to
• 1:54:01
  walk to the top of the mountain, there's some stress I go through
• 1:54:05
  to get to the top of the mountain.
• 1:54:06
  But there's, I guess, agency in that and it also there
• 1:54:09
  endorphins and it feels good.
• 1:54:10
  So, you know.
• 1:54:11
  When one then gets into the conversation, you know, I've, I'm often in this
• 1:54:14
  conversation, for example, about side res, I use them because I need to build muscle.
• 1:54:20
  I use 'em for about 15 minutes to build muscle.
• 1:54:23
  So when I, when I go and lift some weights or something, or do some,
• 1:54:26
  not as often as I should, but yeah, I, I, I accept that there'll be
• 1:54:30
  some effort there for a short time.
• 1:54:33
  And then not, or I could sort of do that until I drop or keep that thing on that
• 1:54:40
  horse for an hour and a half, you know?
• 1:54:42
  No, okay.
• 1:54:44
  There's a reasonable thing as, as one, my, my biggest teacher is Luis Za.
• 1:54:49
  He always pointed out, I said, Rupert, no one ever invented a
• 1:54:52
  so-called gadget to mess a horse up.
• 1:54:56
  People actually only invented those things to help matters out.
• 1:55:00
  However, one can use anything in an abusive way.
• 1:55:05
  I could take this t-shirt off and strangle myself with it.
• 1:55:08
  You know, I could drive my car into a crowd of people, or I could yes,
• 1:55:13
  drive somebody to the hospital.
• 1:55:15
  You know, that how you use the, the bit can be objective torture, or it
• 1:55:22
  can be something that actually releases the jaw if someone shows you how to.
• 1:55:27
  That's great.
• 1:55:27
  Right.
• 1:55:28
  So all of these, so, you know, increasingly, however,
• 1:55:33
  polarization and extremism.
• 1:55:36
  Is something we see everywhere.
• 1:55:37
  It's not just in the horse world.
• 1:55:39
  And I think we certainly can see it happening in the world.
• 1:55:43
  And what does that do, but breed isolation and loneliness.
• 1:55:46
  You know, I'm now in the against side res group.
• 1:55:50
  I'm in the pro side res group.
• 1:55:52
  I'm in the, you know, I'm the blue, I'm the red, I'm the this, I'm the, that.
• 1:55:56
  I'm a, you guys suck.
• 1:55:57
  And, and
• 1:56:01
  you know, and you've got a bunch of horses going, whoa.
• 1:56:03
  Look at the monkeys.
• 1:56:04
  Just like ch
• 1:56:09
  they us in
• 1:56:10
  the field.
• 1:56:11
  Yeah.
• 1:56:16
  Ove.
• 1:56:18
  Ove.
• 1:56:19
  Yeah.
• 1:56:19
  We would, we would love to chat with you again.
• 1:56:21
  'cause I feel like there now there's a whole different
• 1:56:23
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:56:24
  Well I do think topic to discuss loneliness though.
• 1:56:26
  And, and because there's, as you say mark misery is optional, but you don't
• 1:56:32
  always know that you're taking that option because that you, you may be so
• 1:56:38
  conditioned into that option that you don't know that there's another option.
• 1:56:42
  Or you might not even recognize misery as misery.
• 1:56:45
  Again,
• 1:56:47
  Mark Rashid: it, it becomes the way you go.
• 1:56:48
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:56:50
  Mark Rashid: Yeah.
• 1:56:51
  So, you know, it goes back to you get good at what you practice.
• 1:56:56
  Rupert Isaacson: As Jane Pike would say, you know, like you, you pick up the
• 1:56:59
  nervous system of your parents, and if your, if your parents walk around like
• 1:57:02
  that looking a bit defeated, you will.
• 1:57:06
  If your parents walk around like that, you will.
• 1:57:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:57:09
  You know, because you, you're just gonna observe.
• 1:57:11
  Your nervous system will follow what it sees.
• 1:57:15
  However, it's malleable and one can recreate it.
• 1:57:20
  And I would say that that's the business that you all are in and you
• 1:57:25
  happen to use ponies for that as well as aikido and art and music and tribe.
• 1:57:32
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:57:33
  So indeed, can we come back and talk about loneliness and kindness?
• 1:57:40
  Yes, we'd love to.
• 1:57:41
  Okay.
• 1:57:41
  Yeah,
• 1:57:41
  Crissi McDonald: absolutely.
• 1:57:44
  Rupert Isaacson: So listeners, for those of you who have not yet listened to the
• 1:57:47
  previous conversation that we've had, you will not know necessarily Mark and
• 1:57:51
  Chrissy's website and how to get in them.
• 1:57:53
  So please, will you tell people how to get in contact with you and
• 1:57:57
  how to come and do your workshops?
• 1:58:00
  Crissi McDonald: Yes.
• 1:58:01
  So my website is chrissy mcdonald.com.
• 1:58:04
  C-R-I-S-S-I-M-C-D-O-N-A-L-D.
• 1:58:08
  And marks is mark rashid.com.
• 1:58:12
  M-A-R-K-R-A-S-H-I-D.
• 1:58:16
  Our clinic schedule is on Mark site, so if you click on the
• 1:58:20
  link at the top, you'll see that.
• 1:58:22
  We also have other resources such as a online classroom, and
• 1:58:25
  we have a monthly teeny tiny little newsletter that goes out.
• 1:58:29
  So
• 1:58:30
  Rupert Isaacson: super.
• 1:58:31
  Crissi McDonald: That's how you can get in touch with us.
• 1:58:34
  Rupert Isaacson: And if they go to one of your web marks or yours, they could end
• 1:58:40
  up with both of you in the same place.
• 1:58:42
  Crissi McDonald: Yes.
• 1:58:43
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:58:43
  And the name, no Package
• 1:58:44
  Crissi McDonald: Deal.
• 1:58:46
  Rupert Isaacson: And the name of the ranch where you are doing the workshops.
• 1:58:51
  Happy Dog Ranch is Happy Dog Ranch.
• 1:58:53
  Yeah.
• 1:58:53
  Such a beautiful, and it's
• 1:58:53
  Crissi McDonald: in Sedalia, Colorado.
• 1:58:56
  Rupert Isaacson: Not a bad place to go.
• 1:58:58
  Mark Rashid: Yeah, indeed.
• 1:59:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:59:01
  All right, my friends.
• 1:59:02
  Well, thank you.
• 1:59:02
  Thank you again.
• 1:59:03
  Thank you,
• 1:59:04
  Crissi McDonald: Ru.
• 1:59:04
  Thank you
• 1:59:05
  Rupert Isaacson: being brilliant again.
• 1:59:06
  It's
• 1:59:07
  Crissi McDonald: been a wonderful conversation.
• 1:59:08
  Thank you.
• 1:59:09
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, likewise.
• 1:59:10
  Thank you.
• 1:59:11
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• 1:59:14
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• 1:59:19
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