Latest / Wired To Hunt Podcast / Ep. 1008: 2026 State of the Whitetail Union with Kip Adams

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Ep. 1008: 2026 State of the Whitetail Union with Kip Adams · Wired To Hunt Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: the whitetail woods, presented by First Light, creating proven versatile
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: the show, I'm joined by Kip Adams, the Chief Conservation
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Officer for the National Deer Association, and we are discussing
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: the state of white tails in America in twenty twenty six.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: We're to cover many of the most pressing and concerning
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: issues facing deer, as well as deer harvest and population
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: trends and much more. All Right, welcome back to the
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: Today on the show, as I just mentioned, we are
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: chatting with Kip Adams from the National Deer Association about
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: all things white tails and the state of our favorite
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: big game animal all across the country. When we're walking
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: through a bunch of different things that were covered in
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: the twenty twenty six Deer Report that the National Deer
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: Association just put out. This is a report that covers
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: many different topics, many different issues, many different trends, and
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: data related to deer and deer hunting across the country. So,
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: as I mentioned at the top, we're going to talk
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: through some of the most important issues facing deer. Some
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: of that's policy issues, some of those are updates on
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: disease and hunter you know, participation numbers. We talk through
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: a lot of things related to the deer harvest trends
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: across the America, how the age structure is changing, how
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: bucks versus antler lists, deer harvest is changing. We talk
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: through some position statements that the National Deer Association has
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: recently released about technology with deer hunting, and much much
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: more above and beyond that. So I'm going to let
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: us get right to that interview because, as you can hear,
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: I'm a little bit under the weather right now. So
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: let's get to my chat with Kip Adams from a
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: little bit earlier when I was feeling a lot better.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: And this is a great conversation with Kip that I
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: know you're all going to enjoy. All right, joining me
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: once again is Kip Adams.
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: Welcome back, Kip, Hey, good to see you, Mark, Thanks
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: for having.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: Me you too. I always enjoy our check ins, And
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: I was thinking to myself this morning that we've done
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: this almost every single year for at least a decade,
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: if not more than that. And then I remember that
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: last year we didn't do it because I pulled in
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: Nick and Matt instead. So glad to get you back
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: on here for this one, for our annual check in
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: all things kind of state of the white Tail and
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: taking a look at your most recent dear report that
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: you guys put together every year, which I always enjoy,
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: so I want to jump right into it. There's so
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: much in here, There's always a lot. I can't imagine
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: how much time it takes you and Matt whoever else
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: on the team helps you compile all of this. But
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: I'm curious if you had to pick the number one
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: headline from the twenty twenty six Deer Report, the thing
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: that stands out above everything else as most important in
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: your eyes? What is that?
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: Well, I think the thing is certainly from a hunter's
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: end anyway, what they would look at as being most
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: important is is literally the age structure of the buck harvest.
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: It is better than it has ever been in any
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: of our lifetimes. It is more natural for deer herds
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: than it's ever been. The fact that today, you know,
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: for all of the you know, the antler bucks that
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: we shoot for all of those that are only one
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: and a half, we shoot two that are at least
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: three and a half. So it's crazy how far we
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: have come. It's such a good natural aige structure. It's
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: so healthy for deer, and it is providing incredible opportunities
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: for hunters, And it literally is the best age structure
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: we've had in at least the last one hundred years.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: So I think your diehard deer hunters understand what that
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: means and why that's important. But I gather I would
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: think maybe that there's probably some newer folks out there
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: who hear that and they don't quite understand why that
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: matters beyond maybe just Okay, I see more old bucks
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: and that sounds cool, But why is that actually important?
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: Can you give us the cliff notes real quick for
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: those people on why that is actually a meaningful change
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: not just for deer hunters, but also the population of
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: deer in the wider landscape too. Maybe.
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: Sure, deer are far more social than most people realize.
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: They evolved under a very complex social order that works
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: best when you have all age classes representative and that's
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: all ages of bucks and ohs, and historically, because of
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: our over harvest of bucks, we skewed that to a
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: very young age structure. So deer still you know, they lived,
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: and you know they bred and they provided follows, but
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: they wasn't allowed to really be deer. So that deer
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: heard works best when it has a full compliment of
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: age classes, and that's what we have today. It's important
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: from a hunter's end because yeah, we'd like to see
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: and you don't have the chance to hunt older bucks.
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: But even people who don't hunt should like that because
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: that means as managers we are doing a good job.
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: If you look at unhunted deer population today, they have
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: full complement of ages. If you look historically at age structures,
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: they had a full compliment. Today's deer managers have now
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: returned existing deer hurts to that. So it's a real
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: success story from a deer management end, whether you hunt
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: deer or not.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: So this is kind of an absurd question that I
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: never would have thought we'd be asking, but I do
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: remember a handful of years ago in this chat, you
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: discussed how we were expecting that this decline of you know,
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: yearlings being harvested, was going to kind of plateau, was
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: going to settle in somewhere at this mark and kind
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: of stay right around there at some kind of natural stasis.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: And it's largely done that for the last number of years,
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: and now we've actually seen it drop a decent little
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: bit again to a new record. So this begs the
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: question is there I guess let me take it by
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: it begs the question is there ever a point where
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: it would become too much, that it has declined too much,
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: that we have gotten this so that there's so few
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: yearlings being harvested and so much of a focus on
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: mature bucks that in some way it was negative. Is
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: that a possibility or could could that? Is there no
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: negative to be reached?
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: Well, I think that you know what we'd have to
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: watch for is if only if the total buck harvest
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: also was coming down, if we were doing everything we
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: could to protect that yearling buck age class to the
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: detriment of harvesting enough bucks anyway, then there would be
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: a threat of what you were saying. But we are
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: having record high buck harvest. So what it is is
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: hunters are passing those one and a half year old
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: bucks and killing a larger number of those once you know,
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: there are three four five years old. So as long
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: as we maintain harvest you know where or at least
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: harvest bucks the way we do now, there's no threat
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: of any bad issue relative to protecting some yearlings. Now.
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: The only potential issue down the road is from a
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: disease end. You know, if any deer are being saved,
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: you know that that may be spreading disease to others,
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: you know, And that's a different conversation than just this.
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: So there is the potential from that end, But for
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: a large part with what you're asking in today's modern
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: deer world and the way we hunt now, we're not
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: negatively impact anything by saving those yearlings because we're harvesting
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: an even greater number of them once they get older.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: So one thing when I look at the charts and
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: the data for a lot of the states and how
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: they report their age structure, there's some states that it's
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: really really, really dramatic, and I wonder if that is
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: skewing the numbers for some states where we're not seeing
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: that change as much. Do any do you see any
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: discrepancies between like those very aggressive, you know, mature buck
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: states versus some of these other states. They have a
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: lot of hunters and a lot of participation, but they
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: are not seeing that. Does that a concern you at all?
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: Be is that something you're that you're seeing or do
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: not see that as much as I'm thinking, maybe there is.
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: No You're right and there are. There are some states
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: that have vastly different age structures. Part of that are
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: actually more of that is a reflection of how they
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: collect that data. And so states collect this age data differently.
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: Some do it at you know, biological checkstations, Some do
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: it where they have one hundred cent teeth in, some
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: do it at deer processors or taxims. So there's lots
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: of different ways that agencies can estimate the age structure,
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: you know, of the harvest. And a lot of hunters
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: will say, well, how do they know they didn't age
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: my dear? Well, biologis don't need to age every dear,
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: They just need to get their hand on a sample
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: of that harvest. So the way some states do that
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: is they only collect it from say, DMAT clubs, or
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: they may collect it from everybody. The ones that are
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: only collecting it from, particularly Deer Management Assistance Program or
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: DMAT clubs. Those clubs have a little more invested in
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: getting bucks into older age classes anyway, so those states
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: tend to see even advanced age structure over what's average.
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: So what I say is, even though that's not an
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: apples to apples comparison that specific state to your state
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: of Michigan or that state to my state of Pennsylvania,
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: we track this long term and have been doing this
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: for twenty years, so states seem to collect that data
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: the same way each year. So even every state is
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: in an apples apples across time, it is very comparable
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: because they're still collecting it the same way. So that's
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: why I feel very comfortable saying, yes, this is the actual,
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: you know, current state of where we are age structure wise.
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: I can't say that Mississippi does a better job than
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: Michigan or or other states, but long term, when you're
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: looking at everything, where it's very clear we have the
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: best age structure on the buck side that we ever have.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the trend line, you know, that's that's probably the
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: biggest thing, right watching.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: That, Yeah, that is exactly.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: So what about on the antler list side, the last
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: I don't know, three four four or five years. As
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: we've discussed this, the analyst side of things has continued
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: to rise as a possible area of concern. Where does
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: that stand this year?
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: Fortunately, this past the data that's in this report, So
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: the twenty six report actually shares data from the twenty
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: four to twenty five deer season, the reason being the
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: report is published in January, so the twenty five to
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: twenty six season is still going, so it's the harvest
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: data from the most recent season that's in the books. Fortunately,
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: the analysts harvest increased during that which is very good,
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: and it got back above the antler buck harvest for
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: the first time in a few years. And this is
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: so important because long term, some states can shoot more
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: bucks than dose each year and be okay, that's not
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: the norm for most of white tail country. You have
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: to harvest more analysts deer than handler bucks to keep
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: a healthy deer herd. Our buck harvest are at historically
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: high levels. We have only shot more than three million
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: antler bucks three times since the turn of the century,
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: So twenty four twenty five hundred season, it's only had
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: three times and they've all happened within the last five years.
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: So what it is Mark that is an index to
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: deer population size. So we are at historically high population
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: levels in many states right now, and that comes from
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: a function of shooting too many bucks and not enough
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: analysts deer. You know, because we can shoot all the bucks,
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: move on, that's not controlling population growth. That's why so
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: many states have been at begging hunters please shoot more
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: analysts deer because deer herds are just getting higher and
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: higher and higher above where they should be. So the
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: fact is this last season we actually the analyst harvest
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: was higher than the buck harvest, very good, and it
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: was higher than it's five year average, very good. So
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: hunters answered the call, and that's that's exactly what we
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: need because we were going the wrong way with the
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: declining analysts harvest to cross many states.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: I'm sure you have kind of off the record kind
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: of personal conversations with a lot of folks across these
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: different states and managing agencies and everything like that. Do
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: you have a sense, just like a temperature check on
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: how folks are feeling about this. I mean, this latest
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: data is encouraging, but are the folks on the ground
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: managing these deer populations are they feeling like, oh, Yeah,
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: we're good. Trends are looking great and we're happy with
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: the where things are going out. Or do you still
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: sense that there's some of that you know, five alarm
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: fire going on that some of these states have expressed
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: in recent years. Is that continuing?
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: It is? And there's a lot of state deer managers
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: that were extremely happy to see the data. You know,
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: we're okay analyst harvest or above buck harvest again, but
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: they're certainly not confident that that is going to continue
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: long term without repeated you know work on their part,
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: and you know, and I get it. We can't just
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: ask hunters one time shoot more. Does you know it's
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: a thing that they need to feel. Hey, this isn't
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: my best interest if I do shoot more, because you're
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: you know, as hunter's more. We don't want to see
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: fewer deer. How many times have you gone hunting? Are
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: taking your kids hunting? And say, man, I hope we
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: see fewer deer than we did yesterday. That doesn't happen.
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: We don't say that, you know, and I get it
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: as well, you know, like I want to see deer too,
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: and I like to see a lot of deer, so
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: I understand it. So it's important for people like you
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: and US and state deer managers to let folks know, Hey,
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: I know you want to, but hey, here's why we
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: actually need to shoot more does. We're still going to
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: maintain a very healthy herd. But here's why this is
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: in the deer hurd's best interest, in your future hunting's
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: best interests. You know, if we actually shoot more does,
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: because it seems like the most larger thing. If we
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: shoot more does, there's fewer deer. I'm negatively impacting by
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: future hunting. And there are absolutely places where that's true,
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: where deer herds are very low, but most of Waytail
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: Country that that's not the case. So and I'm not
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: saying we need to shoot more does everywhere, but across
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: much of white Tail country that is the case today.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: Okay, so give me the sixty second elevator, you know,
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: pitch on why killing more antlerless deer is probably a
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: good thing. For someone who's listening, who who hasn't heard
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: this yet and is thinking of themselves the exact same
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: thing that you just set a second ago, that doesn't
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: make sense, Convince them why this is actually the case.
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: Deer herds across much of the country are above what
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: the habitats can support with regard to providing maximum nutrition
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: for deer. If we balance deer herds with habitat, that's
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: when deer herds are healthiest. The habitat is the healthiest.
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: The habitat for all those other wildlife species is the healthiest.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: And it's also very good hunting for us. So we
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: need to shoot enough anlist deer to keep deer herds there.
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: And the reality today is only about forty percent of
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: all the hunters that go afield shoot a single deer
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: in a year. Sixty percent of all hunters will not
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: shoot a single deer this year, even though we hear
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: you know, hey, multiple bag limits and all these opportunities,
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: most hunters don't shoot a single deer. That's why we
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: impress upon ours. Hey, here's the need. We need you
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: to shoot, you know, an antler, this deer this year.
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: Keep deer herds healthy and habitats healthy.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah. In the report, it broke down the average age
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: for antless harvest across the country, and it was pretty
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: It was a lower number, you know, for fawns. The
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: lower is like nineteen percent for fawns, nineteen percent for
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: year and a half holes nineteen twenty something like that
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: for two and a half and then I believe it's
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: forty two percent of the antlerless harvest was three and
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: a half plus. And I'm curious if that is the ski,
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: if that's the distribution that we ideally want, is that
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: a good distribution? Is that too much? Too little? What
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: are your thoughts on how that actually kind of maps
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: out currently?
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: Is that is a really old age structure for dose,
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: and what that means is in many places we are
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: not applying very heavy harvest pressure to those deer herds,
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: because if we were applying more harvest pressure, it would
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: be a more balanced age structure from fawnds up through
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: mature deer. So now we say it like in the
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: buck side forty three percent we're three and older, but
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: that's have antler bucks. There's no fawns in that. So
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: you say, well, if it's forty three percent mature bucks
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: and forty two percent mature dose, which you need to
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: remember is the antalyst side includes fonds, that nineteen percent fawns.
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: So if you just looked at adult dose, those that
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: are one have and older, the complement that's three and
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: a half plus would be way over forty two percent.
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: So that means that's a very advanced age structure, much
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: much older than the average buck that's on the landscape.
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: So is that good? From a dough in what we
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: have shows that, Yeah, we have deer in all age classes,
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: but we just have a lot of them way at
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: the you know, the right end of that graph. If
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: we harvested more and brought the average age structure a
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: little younger, that would be more representative of a natural
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: heard and that would be much healthier for those deer.
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: And let us know, as a manager standpoint, Hey, we're
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: doing a better job. So, yes, we have those in
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: all age classes, but they're skewed to the old end.
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: We need to reduce that age class a little bit
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: for dose to make them even healthier.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: And is the is the suggested action that we actually
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: start targeting younger deer on purpose younger dos on purpose,
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: or is it suggested to action simply just just shoot
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: more does in general? I don't care what age class
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: they are. If you have a shot, take the shot.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: Assuming you're in one of these places that has a
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: very abundant population.
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this is an easy one. The answer is just
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: shoot more does, and that would correct the age structure
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: by itself, because dose don't necessarily get larger, you know,
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: as they get older. With bucks in general, we can
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: use body characteristics testimony at age. We can't with dose.
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: I've seen two year old dos win big dough contests.
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: I've seen five year old dos that we're tiny in structing.
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: So it's kind of like humans are taller, some are shorter,
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: some get big, some don't. So with those just I
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: tell people to shoot the biggest dough in the group
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: because you're guaranteed then that it's at least most likely
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: an adult, and then you get the most meat for
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: the freezer. That deer might be two and a half,
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: three and a half, four and a half, or five
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: and a half years old. So yeah, no, not many
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: things are easy in life. This is one that gets
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: very easy. Don't try to pick an old young or
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: just shoot the biggest deer in the group and shoot
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: more does and that'll all take care of itself.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: There you go. So as far as the harvest reports
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: that you guys have collected from all across the state,
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: is there any other key finding or trend or data
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: point that you found really surprising or particularly either exciting
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: or concerning. Does any last thing really stand out to
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: you want to mention?
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: I think one thing and it ties right into what
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: we just said. We found out that the average deer
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: hunter hunts twelve days a year. And I know my
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: wife laughs at that, which he sees that to think
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: only twelve days, you know. So yeah, so the average
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: deer hunter last year hunted twelve days for deer. I mean,
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: they may hunt for turkeys and ducks on a for deer,
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: but the average successful deer hunter last year required fifteen
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: days to harvest a deer. So what that showing is, okay,
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: the average person of twelve This isn't from a lack
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: of opportunity in most places. It's not from a lack
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: of access for most hunters, or a lack of deer,
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: or even a lack of days you know when the
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: season's back. It's selectivity. They are specifically choosing, like I'll
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: wait till later to shoot that dough or now I'm
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: going to wait for a bigger bug. So I thought
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: that was pretty market. It didn't surprise me that the
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: average hunter hundred twelve days. It did surprise me that
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: the average day number of days you know to shoot
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: a dear was fifteen. But I think that that plays
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: in perfectly with what we're talking about, you know, the
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: need to harvest more analyst deer. You know, just people
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: just aren't pulling the trigger or releasing that arrow, you know,
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: with a lot of the opportunities that they have earlier
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: in the sixties.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: So another thing that I would assume is possibly impacting
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: you know, harvest rates and actual numbers of deer getting
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: killed is the actual number of hunters heading a field.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: And for you know, a decade or two now, we've
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: been hearing about the threat of declining hunter numbers, the
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: baby boomers aging out, all of that. You guys took
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: a look at that at a deer hunting specific level
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: this year. Did anything coming out of that work surprise you?
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: Was there anything different than what the historical trends that
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: we've seen from the US Fish and Wildlife surveys have
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: told us.
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: It was a little concern in that total of your
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: hunter numbers have dropped. Again, we asked this question two
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: with three years ago on one of our Dear reports,
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: because we keep a close eye on this. Once we
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: have numbers of total deer armors. But then also we've
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: put it on deer hunters per square mile because that
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: statistic mark, more than anything else, dictates how many deer
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: die in any state, not when opening day is, whether
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: it's in the rut or not, or how long your
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: archer season is. It's the number of hunters on the
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: ground that has more to do with total number of
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: deer that die than any other. So we watched this
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: really closely. So it's a little concerning that that number
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: has come down again over the last few years. So
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: I certainly don't like that. So not only from a
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: total hunter number standpoint, because hunters are ambassadors, you know,
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: for hunting. They pay the bills for hunting, so fewer
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: hunters is not good. But then also then that negatively
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: impacts other conservation funding, and you know, it negatively impacts
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: the number of deer they get shot, the number of
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: pounds of venison that get donated to food banks. You
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: know that all is tied in together. So it is
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: a little concern in that, you know, we are losing
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: hunter numbers because for a long time, while for the
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: past decade to two this talk centers around loss of hunters,
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: but the number of hunters has been very stable. The
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: problem is we're getting older and we're about to the
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: tipping point where the baby boomers are falling off. So
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: here in the next decade, we're going to really have
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: a drop in hunter numbers. So we've been preparing for
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: this by trying to identify what the problem is and
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: how to get more people in the fold. Even though
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: hunter numbers were pretty stable, well now we're starting to
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: see the first steps of that decline, and we know,
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: you know, it's not just to gradual, it's we're about
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: to a cliff, you know, and we're taking those first
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: few steps. We're getting really really close to the edge.
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: So that's pretty concerning to me.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: See, you know, when I was looking at that, a
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: specific subsection of the data was particularly surprising me, which
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: was they they mentioned they gave you a total number
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: of hunters, but then they told you the percentage of
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: those that identify as deer hunters. And it wasn't just
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: that total numbers were declining, it was actually that the
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: percentage of those hunters that deer hunt was declining too.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: So what that tells me is why is deer hunting
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: participation declining faster or declining at a greater rate than
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: just hunting in general. What's that about? I started wondering,
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: have you guys given that any thought? Why is it
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: that in twenty twenty one, for example, seventy eight percent
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: of reported hunters pursued deer, but now as of twenty
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: four percent, that's down to only sixty five percent of
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: hunters identify as hunting deer. Why is it that deer
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: hunting participation specifically is declining within the broader hunting community.
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: I don't know the exact answer to that. I do
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: have assumptions, though, I do think that that is related
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: to the average age of hunters and more older hunters
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: that now are you know, there's still small game hunting something.
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: Maybe they're score hunting, or they're walking behind some beagles
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: or whatever. Get out of times, you know, when it's
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: a lot easier to be out, there's less you know, cold,
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: there's no snow. I do think that that is having
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: an impact on that mark. We don't have data to
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: just show that, but I'm pretty confident that it is
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: firmly related just to the average age of hunters today
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: and as it gets older, you know, that plays directly
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: into it and also there is probably a decade ago.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: I used to have a slide that I used when
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: I gave talks to kind of set up to talk
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: of the importance of deer, and at that time showed
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: the map of the US or the eastern two thirds
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: of the US Rocky Mountains east those thirty seven states,
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: deer were the number one species hunted and thirty six
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: of the thirty seven, the only one that had anything
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: else hunting more than deer was South Dakota. And so
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: just because you know, the insanely good bird populations area
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: Uplandberg and it was like a long I wasn't even
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: close with all those other states. But we're starting to
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: see erosion in that today too. And that's exactly what
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: you were just alluding to, where there's not as many people.
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: So you know, if I make another map like that,
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: you know here in a few years, it's probably going
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: to be more than just South Dakota where where hunters
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: are hunting something besides here, or at least there's the
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: opportunity for that, you know, And that was wouldn't have
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: even been considered a decade ago. It's like, you know, deer,
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: we're so far and away the most important thing above
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: everything else outside of Spencer's home state, I guess. But anyway,
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: that is starting to look a little different today, and
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: that's and that's very concerned.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: Well, And I also wonder if it might have something
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: to do with the disproportionately challenging aspect today of deer
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: hunting access in particular. Right, Like, you can still go
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: out on any piece of public land and probably shoot squirrels,
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: but there's a lot of folks that might say trying
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: to kill a deer on public land these is getting
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: to be a tougher experience, or maybe it's you know,
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: with everybody used to have free permission everywhere to deer
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: hunt on private land, on their neighbors and everyone. But
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: nowadays more and more land is being bought for one
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: or two hunters, more and more land is being leased,
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: and so deer hunting specifically seems like the access challenge
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: is unique there a little bit. I'm curious that that
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: could be having some of this impact as well. Some
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: people were like, Yeah, I used to deer hunt when
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: it was easy to get places to do it. Now
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: if I want a deer hunt, it's going to cost
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: me a bunch of money. Or I've got to become
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: a ninja on public land and I don't love it
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: that much. That's that's purely anecdotal, you know, spitball in there.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: But I wonder if there's something there too.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: There absolutely could be, And you're right, it's it's more
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: difficult to get deer hunting access than anything else across
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: most of the country. You know, the folks in Arkansas.
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: That's probably not true with regard to ducks in some places,
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: but for the most part, you're right. And I know
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: people even wry Am they know deer hunting is very, very,
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: you know, serious, and there's Pennsylvania's more deer hunters per
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: square with anybody, and growing up here you could get
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: permission anywhere. That's certainly not the case anymore. You have
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: a hard time, you know, because every acre of land
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: is hunted for deer. But when season's over, you can
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: you can kyo hunt on just about any place here
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: you are. You can late season small game hunt on
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: a lot of places. You're right. You can still get
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: access to do a lot of other things after deer
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: season's over. But yeah, but it's hard to get permission
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: to deer hunt a lot of places so you probably
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: you probably correct with that.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: So kind of along somewhat similar lines. If we're looking
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: at popular boogeymen within the hunting world, access is one
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: of them, of course, but another one is the impact
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: that crossbows might have on increasing archery participation, possible impacts
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: on deer populations. There's a lot of I mean, for
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: years and years and years people have liked to talk
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: about this. They still like to talk about this, and
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: so we're still going to address it every once in
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: a while. You guys do a breakdown by weapon, you
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: explore this a little bit, and I'm just curious when
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: it comes to crossbow participation and possible impacts, have you
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: ever seen have we ever seen any kind of notable
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: change in harvest structure or harvest percentage during archery versus
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: gun season or anything like that when a state has
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: brought crossboards on board.
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And so I'll preface this by saying, I am
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: a die hard bowhunter. I spend more time hunting bow
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: bow in my hand than anything else. Once both season
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: is over, I'm glad to pick up my rifle and
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: keep going. But bow hunting is my thing. My kids
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: both started with a crossbow and I am totally fine
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: sharing the woods with people using a crossbow. I think
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: it's a great tool to get new hunters in. I
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: think it's a great tool to have senior hunters, you know,
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: be able to still hunt. So I'm not against crossbows. However,
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: I know a lot of people, friends and colleagues are.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: While you know, I've had this discussion lots of times.
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: We have monetists for a long time, and that's you know,
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: the percentage of the deer take that's harvested by bows, rifles, muszlaws,
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: et cetera. Fifteen years ago, the percentage total deer harvest
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: that was taken by bows was fifteen percent. Today that's
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: about twenty five percent, So that's a jump. However, that
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: percentage taken by bows or crossbowst has stayed very similar
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: for the past five to ten years. You know, basically
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: that fifteen years ago, I say that why there was jumpers.
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: That's when a bunch of states were starting to legalize
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: crossbows for all hunters during archery season. So because there
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: was more opportunity, you saw a lot hot more deer
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: taken with a boat. However, that number has been very
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: constant now for a while at about twenty five percent,
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: so firearms are still taken, you know, the vast majority
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: of about two thirds of the annual deer harvest. And
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: what states see is some states can break their harvest
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: down vertical bow and cross boat. Some states can't. They
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: just know it was shot during archery season. So we
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: don't have real fine scale data across the white tails
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: range of this, but we do know the percentage of
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: deer that are taken by bows, whether it's a bow
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: or a crossbow. And even though it has increased mark,
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: what we see now is it has absolutely stabilized. You know,
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: we're still begging hunters to shoot more deer in most places,
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: and it hasn't really moved the needle with with hunter
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: numbers like many thought it would by yeah, allow crossblinds,
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: you're going to add all these hunters. It really hasn't.
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: So what it's done and my home state is a
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: perfect example of this. There's more deer being shot with
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: a crossbow today, you know, than a decade or fifteen
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: years ago, but the total deer harvest has an increase.
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: So it's essentially people that used to shoot that one
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: deer with a rifle in December now shoot it with
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: a crossbow, like in October. So what it's done is
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: it's widened the range of when most deer are shot,
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: which actually helps deers. It's allowing people to shoot them
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: earlier in the year when it's a lot nicer to
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: be in the woods. So while there are hardcore bone
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: hunters who are very upset about the crossbow end and
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: feel the competition during bow season, maybe for specific buch
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: or whatever, the reality of it is, it hasn't increased
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: deer harvest at all, and it hasn't negatively impacted deer
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: harvest at all. It's just moving a lot of it
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: earlier in the year and put more people in the
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: woods during archery season and fewer people in the woods
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: during firearm season in many places. So you know, it's
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: probably helped us maintain deer hunter numbers longer than if
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: we didn't have them, you know, because you know, it's
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: a lot easier to be out in September or October,
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: particularly for brand new hunters or earlder hunters. But as
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: far as killing extra deer, it hasn't done that at all.
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: So it hasn't negatively impacted deer herds. And we started
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: this by saying we had the best age structure we've
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: ever had for bucks, so it hasn't hurt buck age structure.
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: So the real beef today is just people upset that
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: there's others in the woods at a certain time earlier
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: in the archery season with them. That's so it's more
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: of a social problem then there's certainly no biological problem
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: at all with crossboats.
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: Event.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: Okay, so I want to I want to stay on
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: this line of topic just a little bit further. So
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: we're going to step away from the report for a
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: moment because you guys don't address this in the report,
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: but I wanted to get your take on this, and
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: I know the National Deer Association has spent some time
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: thinking about this, and that being continuing down this line
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: of technology and how we hunt and the tools we
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: use to hunt. An increasingly popular tool in the hunting
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: world are drones, whether that be simple camera drones or
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: now even thermal imaging drones that can actually allow you
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: to see the heat signature of deer and very very
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: quickly identify all the deer in an area and zoom
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: in right on them like like a CIA satellite image.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: And so I know the NDA has spent a little
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: bit of time thinking about that and put out a
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: position statement on that. Can you speak at all about
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: how your organization is thinking about how drones are being
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: used today, how they might be used in the future,
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: and where that fine line of fair chase might lie
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: with this technology, and you know, the ways that it's
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: all changing so quickly.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: Sure, h man, it is that the technology that's involved
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: with that is insane. You know, it wasn't that long
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: ago we had these little drones that, yeah, you could
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: go up you know, one hundred feet and take a
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: picture of your house, and then oh, now we can
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: do video, and you know, this is all the way
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: up to drones today with thermal imagers, drones today that
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: are carrying herbicide, drones today that are carrying seeds and
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: they're seeding plots with them. Drones today that are carrying
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: you know, stuff that you can use for a prescribed fire.
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: They're starting you know fires with these. So the technology
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: has greatly expanded and the technology has greatly outgrown what
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: we have for for laws in many states with them.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: And I'll say this, you know, as an organization, the
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: National Deer Association, you know, we we fight for hunters rights.
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: You know, we're hunters. We understand, you know, why people
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: want to hunt and want to pursue deer. So like,
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: we want to support everything possible to allow hunters, you know,
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: to maximize time and field, to maximize efficiency and fun
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: and all that. However, we're first and foremost, you know,
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: we have to protect the resource. So we look at
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: any issue like this very carefully and say, hey, let's
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: make sure we stay within fair chase rules. Let's make
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: sure we're not crossing an ethical boundary. So from from
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: a drone end, we'll start, you know, like with some
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: of the uses for them. We think it's awesome that
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: outside of a hunting season you can use them to
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: better understand the landscape to then go in and enhance habitat,
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: you know, to make that habitat better for d er
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: and other wildlife. I think it's great then to be
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: able to use those to be able to figure out, hey,
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: this is where I should set a stand. Well, this
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: is the best way to access this stand. Those are
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: all great uses. From a recovery end, we think hunters
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: should do everything possible to recover every single animal that's
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: been hit, you know, with a bow or with an
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: arrow or you know, or a bullet. However, with drones,
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: there is a real opportunity to cross that ethical line
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: to either find game illegally to hunt them, to find
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: deer that maybe why you're trying to look for one
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: that you've you've hit. Ooh, there's actually a bigger one
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: over here or more over here. And even outside the season,
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: there is a tremendous opportunity to harass wildlife with the drones.
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: And this is especially true in the Midwest and other
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: open areas more difficult, you know, in the heavily forested regions.
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: But there's a real concern and I've seen it, and
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: I'm sure you've seen it too. I've seen people videos,
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: you know, people harassing you know, deer in a in
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: a swatheing field during the summer, you know, or in
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: a hayfield. So our take on it is, Hey, we
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: want to be very genuine with how we approach this
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: and want to give hunters every advance while staying within
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: those ethical boundaries and making sure that we don't even
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: take a half a step across that line from an
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: ethical standpoint. And states are really wrangling with this trend
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: because it's hard to capture this in because the technology
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: moves so fast. By the time the states get laws
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: or whatever to take care of what's happened now or
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: the issue they had last year, you know, drones are
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: ten steps ahead of that. There's very few other things
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: we talk about there like that. When trail cameras came out,
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: this was one of the single biggest things that hunters
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: or landos now had to survey deer herds and get
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: a feel and people say, man, this is way across
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: the ethical boundary. Well, today, we've had them for a
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: long time and people don't even look at it that
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: way anymore. The drone is the new thing with that
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: and that has the ability to go even farther, you know,
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: on the unethical side. So we look at it very closely.
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: We want folks to be able to use them, but
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: you know, absolutely not from a harassment end or anything
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: that crosses the line of fair chase, because you know
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: that that is the line in the sand that all
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: hunters have to abide by, and if we want to
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: continue hunting, that's what we need to go bye bye.
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: For all of the non hunting public that allows us
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: to hunt, they want to make sure we're stopping at
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: that line as well.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. I think we oftentimes
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: forget that we get to deer hunt as a privilege
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: within this country, right, and that could be taken away
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: if the majority no longer supported that opportunity. So not
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: only is it important to be following fairchase, you know,
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: principles for our own selves and the sake of the activity,
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: but also, like very practically, there's like long term hunter
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: opportunity and rights ramifications to this stuff too. So even
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: if you know you personally think the line should be
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: here and not here, let's also think about how the
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: rest of the world might look at these things and
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: how that could influence our opportunity to do what we love.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: So I want to kind of circle back a little
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: bit to some things in the report and a little
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: bit of this, you know, I guess broader sort of
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: policy slash state program type topics. Something I know you
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: guys have been spending a lot of time on at
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: the NDA you talk about here in the report is
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: getting a better understanding of where there are donation programs
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: for deer meat, where there are deer processors, so that
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: if people need to get that meat taken care of,
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: they have that possibility to them to all of these
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: kinds of support structures that enable appropriate harvest levels. Right,
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: can you give us an update on where that stands.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: What do you guys have found what you're working on
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: on that front?
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: Sure, And you know, we talked a little earlier about
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: the need to shoot more analysts deer. What you just
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: asked about is kind of a continuation of that because
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: we recognize the need for that. But we don't just
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: want to say, yep, go shoot more. We want to
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: prove I have real solutions for hunters. Let's figure out
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: why they're not shooting more, and then let's remove some
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: of those barriers, you know, and then enable them to
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: be easier or you know, to make decisions to shoot more.
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: This Venison processor map and donations place perfectly into this.
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: I already said about forty percent of our hunters are
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: going to shoot a single deer this year, that's it,
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: and only about eighteen percent are going to shoot more
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: than one. This is not because they don't have the
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: opportunity to go afield. This is not because we don't
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: have abundant deer on the landscape, and it's not because
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: they don't have tags. Almost every hundred goes the field,
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: you know, with multiple buck tags and multiple inless tags.
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: It's selectivity, it's making that decision. So part of that
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: is some people just don't need that much deer. They're
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: gonna eat one deer and that's it. My family, we
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: put you know, five to seven deer in our freezer
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: every year and then give some more away to needy
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: families because we eat that much. I recognize not everybody does. However,
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of people that have the choice during
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: the year to shoot a dough that choose not to
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: because they don't need another one or don't want another one. Well,
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: there's two things that want. Hey, maybe we can convince
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: them to shoot that deer if they had an outlet
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: for that. Venison donation programs are a perfect outlet. But unfortunately,
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of hunters that just are not aware
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: of those opportunities today to get food into homes that
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: need it. Today, in this great country of ours, it's
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: insane that one in seven households are food insecure. So
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: think of that. All the kids that go to school
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: with your kids, you know, one out of every sect
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: they don't have enough protein at home, but yet we
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: have too many deer on the landscape in many places.
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: So we can connect hunters, let them know, hey, there
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: are needy families. Here is a place you can take
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: this deer to be processed. Because unfortunately, mark there's way
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: fewer venics and processors today than there have been in
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: the past. They go out of business. They just aren't
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: taking as many through COVID, through this, that disease, whatever.
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: There's a lot that have closed their shops. So what
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: we did is we worked with every single state wildlife
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: agency and their venison donation programs to put a national
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: map together. You can go on our website. There's an
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: interactive map, find your state and it shows every single
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: venison processor there. So hunter now can locate, hey, who
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: is closest to me. We identify which ones participate in
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: the state's venison donation programs. You can go drop it
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: off there, you go, doesn't cost you anything, and the
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: meat is going to a needy family. That's perfect. So
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: we are making raising this awareness to hunters, talking about
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: the need to do it. Here's they are an outlet
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: for it. And unfortunately, every one of those state donation
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: programs they run out of money during the year. You know,
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: they are all the runoff donations and there's some state funding,
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: but most part donations. However, we also know that there
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: are t FAB dollars that can be used for those
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: t FAB is a federal program that's the Emergency Food
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: Assistance Program. A lot of people have heard of that.
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: Very few people know that those dollars can go to
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: venison donation programs through the state. We currently work with
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: this through the state of Massachusetts right now on their
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: mass Wildlife venison donation programs. So our director of Policy
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: is working with many state wilife agencies to connect those dots.
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: Because now we provide a national map hunters, here's where
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: you can find a processor. Here are the ones that
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: it's free to you that goes to a venison donation program,
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: and here are the t FAB dollars to mean that
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: that state has way more money to pay those processors
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: to increase numbers of deer for those programs. And by
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: doing so, this reduces the barrier for hunters, makes it
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: very simple for them, makes it free for them, and
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: then they get to you to solve a problem and
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: help communities in need. And the best part is we
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: harvest deer the need to be harvested, so deer herds
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: are healthier, habitats are healthier, people get fed.
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: And who are the champion Hunters? Hunters are the champions,
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: are the ones that make this whole thing work. So
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: it's super cool that once we connect all these parts,
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: this is what happens. So this is what we are
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: right in the middle of all of this. And you
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: are questioning about, you know, the the venison map. We
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: don't want to just say hunters, go shoot more deer,
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: say yes, we want you to.
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: Here's why. And man, we're gonna rolled this out and
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: made it as easy as possible for you to do this.
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: Be the champion in your society.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: That's incredible. Just you know, there's a win win, and
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: then there's things like this where it's like a win
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: win win win win. There's so many across the board there,
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: so it's hard to argue with that. And if somebody
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: is listening and they'd like to see that map, I
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: just pulled it up. If you go to Deer Association
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: dot com and then underneath the you know, the menu there,
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: you'll see NBA programs selected that and then there's a
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: drop down and you'll see the National Deer Processor Map.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: Very easy to get to, terrific program. Really good. Glad
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: you guys are working on that. You mentioned TFAB dollars.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: Is that program part of the you know, associated with
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: the farm bill at all?
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: It is? Yep, it absolutely is. And so many states
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: were away that Yes they can use that for you know,
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: food assistants and that, but they weren't aware of the
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: connection to the venison donation part. So, uh, there's a
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: lot of education there at the policy level, you know,
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: to to allow folks, you know, the understanding of how
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: to incorporate those dollars. So, yep, Farm Program Bill super important.
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: Let me say this mark before we leave the map part.
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: That is an interactive map. So at any point if
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: somebody wants, you know, knows of a processor to be added,
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: just reach out to us and we'll get them added
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: on there. I mean, we want to have as complete
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: of the map as possible. If we understand there's a
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: lot of mom and pop processing you know that goes on,
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: we can get any of that on here. Anything to
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: help hunters, you know, connect and find a processor we
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: want to do. So uh, yeah, we'll update that you know,
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: at a moment's notice, So anybody can hit let us
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: know where processor is that we don't have, and we'd
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: love to get them at it.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: That's great. Uh So I was gonna ask related to
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: the farm bell then, Yeah, we've talked about the farm
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: bill here on the podcast, you know, every couple of
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: years for quite a while now, and for the last
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: few years it has been pushed. It has you know,
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: been needing reauthorization for several years now, continues to be
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: pushed and pushed and pushed. I'm curious if you have
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: any update on on where things stand with the farm
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: bill these days and the and the conservation program specifically
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: tied to that, any updates that that deer hunters should
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: know about.
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: I have some updates, and none of it's good for us.
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: And this is this comes from our director policy and
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: a and a federal policy person that we work with
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: that updated me and our staff on this here recently
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: and essentially just with what's going on in the world
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: today and where we are with all the other big issues.
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: Well they said, is you know, basically the can is
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: still just being kicked down the road with reauthorization for
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: farm bill. So I don't know the ins and outs
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: of it. I know they're the ones that work on
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: this on a daily basis, so uh, that's what they
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: shared with me. So now, that's so not good news
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: for sportsmen and women by any means, but apparently that
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: is that is the reality of where we are today.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I hate to do this then, because I'm
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: going to continue to ask you about not good news things.
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: The next the next topic that we have to address
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: and we have to talk about is where things stand
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: on the disease front, which I think is every deer
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: hunter's least favorite topic, but it is also an important one. So, Kip,
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: can you get us the latest on what you guys
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: saw when you reported this most recent year on trends
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: with CWD and EHD, which which tend to be the
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: two most high profile disease issues in the country. And
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: then I've got some more specific CWD questions, but I
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: guess high level, what were the trends that we saw
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: in those two fronts.
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: Let's start with with hemorrhagic disease. There were there were
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: twenty seven states that confirmed the disease last year, which
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: was a couple more than the year before. Twenty four
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: was considered a lower moderate year for it last year
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: most places, even though there was a couple more states,
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: most places that were the gain was low to moderate severity. However,
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: there were some places that were absolutely hammered with it,
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: the Ohio River Valley being being you know that that
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: was number one place, So you know they're in southeast
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: Ohio and across the line into West Virginia. Those year
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: got just absolutely slammed. So the thing with him rragic
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: disease that that I that I tell deer hunters to
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: I think we really need to watch is one. You know,
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: this used to be considered a disease of southeastern deer.
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: You know, it wasn't everywhere. That's not the case anymore, man.
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: This thing is all across the US and up into Canada.
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: You know, we see it every year in my home
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: state of Pennsylvania now, and you know that. I mean
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: in the past that just never happened, you know. But
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: with a warmer climate, you know, the vector which are
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: the midges, they're moving way farther north, becoming much more common.
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: And we're also seeing new strains of hemorrhagic disease. So
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: even the deer in the southeast, you know that typically
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: would get exposed to it, you know, but the wouldn't die.
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: And this is a big thing with Hemorrhaget's not all
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: deer die from it in the southeast because they're exposed
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: every year, you know, Yeah, a few deer die here
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: that well, there's these new strains. I mean, deer in
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: the southeast in many cases are just as naive to
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: those strains as our northern deer are. So we're seeing
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: some bigger die offs in places in the south as well.
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: So long term, it looks like hemorrhagic disease will continue
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: to grow and expand, largely because of our current climate. Fortunately,
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: it's not devastating to most deer herds. Some deer that
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: get it don't die. Those that do tend to die
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: very quickly, so they're not giving it to other deer.
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: They can't do that, so that is a good thing.
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: So it's an increasing concern. And may I feel for
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: people that want to it's bad where you are, because
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: I get it. I mean, it's easy for me to say, yeah,
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: it wasn't that bad of a year. You know, none
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: of the deer on the farm and I hunt died.
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: You know, so I sympathize with with people who haven't.
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: So it's a big deal for sure. The other half
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: of that is a CWD, and this continues to be
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: the single largest threat to the future of our deer herbs.
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: And that's not just me saying that mark or NDA.
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: The vast majority of wildlife professionals believe that's the single
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: largest threat. The reason for that is, unlike hemorrhagic disease,
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: CWD is fatal to one hundred percent of deer. Every
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: deer that gets it's going to die. Also different from
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: hemorrhagic disease. If a deer has CWD, it can infect
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: other deer that it comes in contact with, and it
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: can infect other deer that it doesn't come in contact with,
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: just by things that it leaves in the environment like urine, feces, saliva,
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: other deer that come in contact with that, or it
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: remains after it dies. So it's just so much more contagious.
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: That's the big thing with CWD. It's in thirty six
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: states now, Georgia being the most recent, so you know,
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: it continues to expand. But what I want to tell
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: people is in uh, you know, we're in battles of
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: this all the time. People say, well, hamorrhagic disease is worse,
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: And what I tell people is that's not true. And
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: I think that we missed the point by saying, well
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: CWD is worse, or hemorrhagic disease is worse. So I
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: tell people is they're both bad. They're both really bad.
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: It's not a one or it's both. We need to
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: work on both. We attack those two diseases very differently,
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: but I think people like to fight over one or
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: the other and they just lose sight of the big picture.
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: The big picture is they are both really really bad
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: diseases for deer. They both negatively impact the future of
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: our hunting. So as sportsmen and women, we need to
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: engage with our state wilife agencies and do everything we
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: can to battle those to limit, you know, spread of
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: both of those diseases. And that's really the reality of
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: where we are today. When when our kids there were
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: different things that were the biggest threats we had to
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: deal with. Today it's disease, and both of those diseases
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: are very bad and getting worse.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just it's so tricky to see and feel
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: and understand the ramifications of one of them compared to
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: the other. And I feel like that just continuously leads
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: to conspiracy and folks, you know, being in denial. You know,
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: there was just somebody on social media the other day.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: He has a large platform, and I ran across this
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: video and he said something like, you know, do this
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: thought experiment with me. Think about you know, if if
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: you didn't have the media, and if the media told
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: you nothing about EHD, and all you had to go
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: from was your personal lived experience and those in your
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: family and your community, would you know that EHD existed
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: and then it might impact you. And so just think
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: about that. And it's like, okay, and now take a
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: look at CWD. If the media wasn't continuously preaching to
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: you about this and all these so called experts weren't
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: preaching about it, would you have any idea that CWD
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: is impacting something in your life and in your community?
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: Could you see it and feel it? Yeah, just think
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: about that. And the point he was getting at is
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: that he was claiming that the media is feeding you
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: this thing, these so called experts are feeding you this thing.
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: But no one's actually experienced any downsides of CWD. But
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: we've all experienced some kind of real downside to EHD.
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: Because it's immedia, it can be very concentrated and noticeable.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: We're all of a sudden, a bunch of deer die
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: in a week, and it's like obvious. With CWD, it's
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: much much harder to see that firsthand and to recognize
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: that firsthand. Of course, that doesn't mean it's not a
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: real thing, and that doesn't mean it's not going to
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: have very real long term implications. But for the average
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: everyday person, it's a harder, you know, two series of
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: dots to connect the lines between what do you say
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: to somebody who hears that and thought to themselves like,
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: oh yeah, I don't know. This is hard to wrap
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: my head around. This is this has been going on,
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: add no ousen for you for twenty years. I know,
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: I know you're sick of having to make this case,
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: but bear with me and do it one more time.
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: You know. And I'm fine to this because you're right
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: because it is such a big issue and there's a
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: lot of hunters that that wonder that exact same thing.
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: I liken the two diseases to hemorrhagic disease. Incubation period
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: is only five to nine days, So if it is
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: gonna die, it's gonna die. You know, within five to
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: nine days we see them. They all congregate the water,
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: so it's very simple to find them. I liken that too.
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: That's the hornet's nest in that bush in your front yard.
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: If you walk out and you kick that hornet's nest,
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: there is an immediate reaction. You're gonna You can see it,
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: and you know that's heemorrhagic disease. CWD is very different.
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: Incubation is eighteen to twenty four months, so way lower.
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: CWD is like the termite under your house. You might
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: see that hornet's nest in your front yard every day.
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: You don't see the termites under your house, but every
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: day they weaken the foundation, and when you do figure
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: it out, in many cases it's too late to save
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: the house. That's the CWD in deer because it goes
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: so slowly, but it just keeps wearing away the foundation
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: of that deer herd. And for the people to say, well,
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: there's no declines in are in wildlife because of CWD,
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: that's not true. We have absolute published declines and out populations.
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: In Wyoming. We have population declines and mule deer populations
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: in the west now and in white tails in northwest Nebraska,
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: we have population declines specifically due to CWD. University of
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: Georgia researchers finished this project up about a year ago.
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: They have three different study sites in Arkansas in the
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: area that they first found the disease, and they have
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: monitored all kinds of stuff with that. The long and
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: short of it is those three study sites deer herds today.
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: So think about the deer per square mile, or you
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: hunt how many deer per square mile. Most hunters don't
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: want to hunt if there's less than twenty to thirty
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: deer per square mile, and they're not happy unless there's
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: deer per square mile there are those populations today have
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: between one and five deer per square mile. That's it,
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: and it's because of CWD. They started way higher than that,
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: and that's how far. Look when they found CWD in
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: that area, Oh it's brand new. Well now, it had
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: been there a while and they now believe that it
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: probably was there for twenty years before they found it,
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: so it had a twenty year head start to just
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: that's why the prevalence rates there are so high. In deerers,
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: and this is exactly what we're seeing there.
• 55:34
  Speaker 4: Now.
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: Do you want to go go hunt where there's five
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: deer per square mile? You know I have hunted in
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: those situations, and I know you probably have as well.
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: You don't see many deer. You certainly don't see if
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: any where there's one one deer per square mile, you're
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: like on averagers, one deer for every six hundred and
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: forty acres. This is because of CWD. And what shows
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: that this is the first example, you know, in a
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: place in the US where we have a bunch of
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: deer and a lot of deer owners, you know, Wisconsin
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: or somebody is going to be next. I mean, this
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: is the thing we're going to see grow. So just
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: like those termites under your house, you don't see them today,
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: you know, but twenty years down the road, you're like, oh, man,
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: we should have done something about this. That that's the
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: big difference between CWD and hamorrhagic disease. And so that's
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: why we fight so hard for that.
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: So for years now, in these discussions, the next question
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: is always well, what can we do or what what
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: what happens next? And for a long time the answer
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: has been well, follow your state's best guidelines to slow
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: the spread as much as possible, because if you don't
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: have it, you don't want it. So let's follow all
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: the best practices, and then let's advocate for, you know,
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: more funding for research. Let's support you know, hopefully finding
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: solutions because right now we don't have a great solution,
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: so we need to fund studies and research and different
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: projects that might get us to some kind of better solution.
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: In your report, you have a long list of different
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: studies results coming out when it comes to CWD research
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: and new findings. Is there anything from that list that
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: stands out to as worth you know, the general public
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: knowing a little bit more about well.
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: I think that we know more today than ever before
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: about it, which is good. There's a lot of research
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: going on about it, which is good. There's multiple studies
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: out there looking at developing a vaccine for it, which
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: is great because that's the first step, you know, and
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: having that, you know, it takes a while. There's a
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: bunch of trials, So the fact that there's not just
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: one but multiple people trying to develop that, I think
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: is very positive and that's all the more incentive for
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: me anyway to continue fighting to limit spread so that
• 57:41
  Speaker 3: once we do find a vaccine, you know, we can
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: apply it to a larger number of deer, you know,
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: or at least a larger percentage of those deer more quickly.
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: So I tell people every single hunter can get engaged.
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: Keep hunting. First of all, every time you shoot a
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: deer that has the disease, hey, you've helped the battle,
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: removed a positive animal for the landscape. That is good.
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: Now it can't infect any others. So keep hunting. Provide
• 58:07
  Speaker 3: samples to our agencies so we know where the disease
• 58:09
  Speaker 3: is and the prevalence rate. You know, there's stuff that
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: has hunters we can do every single day, and I'm
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: more encouraged with the amount of research for that than
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: in the past. We finally do have some success stories,
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: you know, with regard to that, so you know we're
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: on the right path. We just need time, and that's
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: why it's important for every deer hunter to engage do
• 58:28
  Speaker 3: what they can, you know, with this fight, because man,
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: it's a fight worth fighting for sure. If there ever
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: was a fight worth fighting in the deer world, this
• 58:36
  Speaker 3: is one.
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: So all that said, Kip, how do you feel about
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: the fact that some states are seemingly pulling back on
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: their CWD management efforts. You know, Missouri just announced, you know,
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: end of last year or beginning of this year, that
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: they are going to stop their targeted removal program. States
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: like my home state of Michigan are in real discussions
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: about bringing BATA back. And I know that's you know,
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: just a couple example of things happening all across the state.
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: What's your what's your take on that trend?
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: Man, that's not headed the right way, and I feel
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: so bad, particularly for Missouri. There is very clear the
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: single best thing we can do to remove the most
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: CWD positive deer from the landscape while simultaneously having the
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: minimum negative impact to hunters is targeted removal. Because you
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: know where a CWD positive is, you are guaranteed there's
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: other positive deer around it. So the strategical removal of
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: those sharpshooting programs does more for removing positive deer from
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: the landscape than anything else. And then you're removing the
• 59:40
  Speaker 3: least number of deer from a hunting standpoint, so it
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: hurts hunters the least. It actually helps hunters the most.
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: You know, they notice impacts the least. Unfortunately, though, public
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: outcry around sharp shooting programs goes crazy and people lose
• 59:56
  Speaker 3: their minds with you know, they're killing all the deer
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: and this is bad, and and some celebrities get involved
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: and just make it worse. Missouri is the shining star example.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: No state has done a better job of keeping prevalence
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: rates as low as they have for as long as
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: they have as the state of Missouri. The Missouri Department
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: of Conservation has done a fantastic job. Just past year
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: and a half, public outcry, mostly through social media campaigns,
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: has been so bad that the agency just can't withstand
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: it anymore. And I don't mean that they're given up.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: I mean from political there's political motivations now, so you
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: can't just say, well, yeah, they should just continue to
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: fight when all of those people are so upset and
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: they're going to the legislators, that negatively impacts other things
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: that MDC can do. So I understand why Missouri's going
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 3: that route. I think that's a real loss for the
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: future of CWD management and a loss of hunters. Four
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: hunters in Missouri moving away from those sharpshooting programs because
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: there's nothing else that works that good every moving positive
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: CWD positive deer from the landscape.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: What about the baiting trend, I feel like that's popping
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: up again more and more places. I know you guys
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: have a nuanced position on baiting at the NDA, can
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: you can you give us some thoughts there.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: Sure, it's very clear that there's nothing that spreads disease
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: faster than when deer are congregated and they're swapping spit
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 3: and urine in saliva, and that happens more a bait
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 3: sites than anywhere else. The science is very very clear
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: on that. We don't talk about the ethical part, whether
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: you should use bait from a hunting end or not,
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: I don't care about that, But from a science end,
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: the biology is very clear that if you have a disease,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: that's where it's going to spread first and spread fastest.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 3: So baiting is not good in disease zones. And we
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 3: absolutely oppose baiting in any disease zones because we don't
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: want deer you know, trading spit and urine and feces
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: and all that way better. And I'm had that bait,
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: So those deer stays spread out, you know, they're not
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: coming into contact with each other as much. And it's
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 3: not just CWD. There's lots of research that shows that
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: mange is greatly the spread of it is greatly increased
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: at bait sites. Brucellosis greatly increased there, tuberculosis of course
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: here you had that in Michigan, CWD it also, I mean,
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: it was all kinds of diseases and ailments that are
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: bad for deer. That spread is greatly increased at bait sites.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: So because of that, we don't think that you should
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: be able to bait anywhere where there's a disease concern.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: Baiting is really culturally tied though, and people who grew
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: up baiting, you know, man, they don't want to hunt
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: without it. To the point where I was at a
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: class that we were teaching last fall. We had a
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: guy came in and was talking to me about I'm like,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: how is your season? Yeah? About so he's going on
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 3: and on about excited to hunt. He goes, well, yeah,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 3: I got off to my stand it was like peak
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: rud or whatever, and got to it. And this was
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: in the state where baiting was legal. And he walked
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: over to his feeder, he said, and it was empty,
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: there was nothing in it. He goes wasted that day,
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: so I went home. There was a zero percent chance
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: to kill a deer if there wasn't bait. So the
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: fact he's in the woods, but it's just I'm not
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: picking on him. This is how he was brought up hunting,
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: so to his mind, that's the only way to hunt. So,
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 3: you know, I get it. Baiting is really ingrained in
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: places where you know that's up. So it's a big issue.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: And that's why it's so hard to emotional tie. And
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: the cultural tie is so strong that even as dangerous
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: as disease is in many cases, you know, that can't
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: even override how tightly people are tied to that. So
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: I get that, you know, I understand that part of it,
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 3: and so it's on us as managers to be able
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: to really show hey, we understand that. But from a
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 3: disease end, here's why we really need you to not
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 3: use bait.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, kit, I want to zoom out, zoom
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: out and away from baiting, CWD all these different things.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: Potentially Imagine I am a deer hunter listening to this
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: podcast right now. I'm on the other side of the
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: of the airwaves. I'm in my car, I'm driving to work,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: or driving to go for a hike, to go look
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: for sheds, or do some work on the property, or
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: scout some public land. And I'm listening to this podcast
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: because I love deer hunting, and I want to make
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: sure that I can keep deer hunting and have a
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: quality experience into the future. And I want to make
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: sure that my kids can do this kind of stuff.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: And so I am a deer hunter who cares about
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: the future, and I want to be a part of
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: the solutions that will lead us to a better future
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: for deer and deer hunting. If I'm that kind of person,
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: what are two tangible, actionable things that I can do
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: over the next twelve months to help perpetuate that better
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: future for deer and deer hunting. Two tangible examples.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 3: Two tangible things. One, I would say, become an NBA member.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: You can do so for free, because then we can
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: keep you updated on all this important stuff that's going on.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 3: We can share whatever information you want, how to enhance habitat,
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: how to introduce new hunters, how to be involved in policy,
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 3: whatever it is that will keep you engaged in the
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 3: game to know, hey, here's really what's going on. That's
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 3: number one and number two. Go hunting this year and
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 3: shoot an handle this deer. That will be do so
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 3: much for our sport. And you're doing your part for
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 3: deer eat that you can get some of it away
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: to friends or family, whatever you want. But those two
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: things will keep you engaged and will be extremely I
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: allow you to be a very productive hunter, to be
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: doing something very good for the future of our dear hurd.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: That's not too much to ask, Kip. I think that's
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: a very reasonable ask. I'm on boards. I'm here for it, Kip.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: I appreciate everything you do and that the National Deer
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: Association does. They can become a member at dear Association
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: dot com. Correct, that's correct, that's correct, excellent. Well, any
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: final words be a Kip or should we wrap this
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: one up?
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 3: I think we're at a good spot there. So it's
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: great to see you Mark as always, and thank you
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 3: for everything you do for our wild deer resource and
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 3: for wild places. Glad to be here today and talk
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: with you.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, always a pleasure, Kip, Thanks so much. Let's do
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: it again next year. Sounds good, all right, and that's
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: going to do it for us today. Thank you for
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: being here. Thanks for being a part of this chat
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: today with Kip Adams. I hope you learned a lot.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: Be sure to check out the twenty twenty six Dear
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: Report for yourself. If you'd like some more information along
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: these lines, you can find that at the Dear Association
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: dot com website. And until next time, thanks for being
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: here and stay wired to hunt.