Latest / The Fourcast / ‘This is what globalising the intifada looks like’ - are Jews safe in the UK?

Transcript

‘This is what globalising the intifada looks like’ - are Jews safe in the UK? · The Fourcast

0:00
This is what globalizing the intifada looks like, attack
0:03
views on the street and burning synagogues.
0:05
There has been this terrifying anti-Semitic rhetoric in the
0:07
streets at these pro Palestine marches.
0:09
It is not anti-Semitic to criticize Israel but to demonize
0:13
Israel and Zionism as uniquely evil as the source of all evil
0:17
in the world. That is when it tips into
0:19
anti-Semitism the. More one runs to say there's an
0:24
attack on gold as green. You shouldn't be allowed to
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protest against Israel, against Israeli policies, against what
0:30
it's doing. I think it genuinely suggests
0:34
that people aren't taking anti-Semitism seriously.
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Israel is a state. It uses statecraft.
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If weaponizing anti-Semitism and saying oh look, this happens,
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therefore shut up and leave us alone to do what we want to do
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to the Palestinians, Lebanon, anything else, I understand how
0:49
that serves the Israeli state interests.
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I don't understand how that conflation serves the well-being
0:55
of Jewish communities here or elsewhere.
1:00
Hello and welcome to the forecast.
1:02
Are Jewish people no longer safe in the UK?
1:04
After a spate of attacks and foiled plots against British
1:07
Jews since the event of October the 7th and the Iran war,
1:11
including the stabbing of two men in Golders Green, many feel
1:14
the issue is spiralling out of control.
1:16
So why have we seen this horrifying rise in anti-Semitic
1:20
incidents? Are British Jews safe?
1:23
What should be done about it? Should we start looking at
1:26
things like the right to protest?
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To discuss this, I'm speaking to a range of guests from across
1:31
the legal, cultural and security landscape, journalist Hadley
1:35
Freeman, British Israeli analyst and author Daniel Levy and the
1:39
former counterterrorism chief Nick Oldworth.
1:42
Hadley. First, Hadley, could you just
1:46
begin by telling me about, you know, how you feel?
1:49
What, what are the mix of feelings you have now?
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Because we're, we're seeing, you know, a lot of anger on the
1:55
streets, but also people talking about fear.
1:59
Where are you? Well, my main feeling is much
2:02
smaller than that, I'm sorry to say.
2:04
It's I'm worried whether it's safe to take my children to
2:06
Hebrew school on Saturday. They go to the local synagogue
2:10
where we go. And you know, our lovely local
2:14
synagogue has really increased its security since October the
2:17
7th and especially since the beginning of the Iranian war.
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But two synagogues near us within the past two weeks have
2:23
been firebombed, and we're seeing these terrorist attacks
2:26
in our area of northwest London just stepping up.
2:29
And so I'm afraid my feeling is just the very personal one is,
2:32
is it safe to take the children to Hebrew school?
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And do do you feel it is markedly more dangerous now as a
2:40
result of these two or three most recent incidents than it
2:43
has been over the last 2 1/2 years?
2:47
Yes, because there's this strange thing which is whenever
2:50
an anti-Semitic violent attack happens, rather than engendering
2:54
support for the Jewish community, it just seems to
2:56
encourage more anti-Semitic attacks.
2:59
So they just become this almost, I don't want to say Ponzi
3:02
scheme, but just kind of pyramid scheme of they just keep
3:04
happening. And that's what we've seen in
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the past six weeks, particularly since the burning of the Hatsola
3:08
ambulances just 10 minutes from my house.
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Just more and more anti-Semitic attacks.
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I mean, when you say rather than support for the Jewish
3:17
community, there is also support for the Jewish community, isn't?
3:21
There, there there is some support for the Jewish
3:23
community, but I can't help but think that if pretty much any
3:27
other minority was on the receiving end of the kind of
3:30
attacks that the Jewish community has been on the
3:31
receiving end of, there would be marches in the street.
3:35
There would be, you know, huge outcries from the normally very
3:37
vocal anti racism campaigners. And instead there's something
3:41
much more muted. There's something more but
3:43
Israel or, but Zionism or, but it's complicated or what did you
3:47
expect with what Netanyahu is doing?
3:49
As though Jews in London or in Manchester are are somehow to
3:53
blame for this. And this is a very historic
3:55
reaction. You know, I, you know, I don't
3:57
like going to World War 2 analogies.
3:59
But when you look back 80 years ago when a German diplomat was
4:04
killed by a Jew in Paris, that the Nazis then used that to
4:07
attack the Jews in Germany in Kristallnacht.
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And here we see when Israel does things far away that people here
4:14
disagree with, they see that as justification for an arson
4:17
attack on a synagogue in London. You know, it's like the story
4:20
doesn't really change that much. Do do you think it is fair to
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shout you know, due Harmer at Keir Starmer today?
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And I, I don't particularly think that.
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And what I would say to people who go after Starmer, you know,
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yes, he's made his mistakes. I personally disagree with the
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fact that so much anti-Semitic rhetoric has been allowed to
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flourish in the streets at these pro Palestine marches.
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But you know, I look at Starmer and I think, you know what,
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there are a lot of worse alternatives and he is there and
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he is trying. He does go to a synagogue with
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his wife. I don't think he is ignorant of
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the problems and the fear the Jewish community is feeling.
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What what a lot of people are saying is it's time for action,
5:00
you know, not not words. What does that mean to you?
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Well first of all I'd like there to be an acknowledgement that
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there has been this terrifying anti-Semitic rhetoric in the
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streets at these pro Palestine marches.
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Things like globalize the intifada, eradicate Zionism.
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These are not political statements, these are.
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This is hate speech and people can criticize Israel all they
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want. Jews always say that it is not
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anti-Semitic to criticize Israel but to demonize Israel and
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Zionism as uniquely evil as the source of all evil in the world.
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That is when it tips into anti-Semitism and that is when
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you see mentally ill people like what happened in Golders Green
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globbing onto that and attacking Jews.
5:41
Right. But so?
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But is this primarily then a question of police enforcement
5:45
of the existing law? Well yes, I would like more
5:48
police enforcement. There probably does need to be
5:50
more police on the streets, although I don't want to turn
5:52
Golders Green into some strange ghetto.
5:54
There also needs to be some look some closer examination of this
5:58
strange satellite group that seems to have spun off from the
6:01
IRGC that is taking credit for a lot of these anti-Semitic
6:04
attacks that are happening in Northwest London.
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No one really knows who they are.
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This has started since February. Or whether it's real, I mean it,
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it may just be people taking, you know, credits for something
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that they have nothing to do with.
6:17
That may be, but there is no doubt there are disaffected men,
6:22
Muslim men, that this group is taking credit for their actions
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and there's a lot of disaffected men around there who are would
6:28
like an excuse to go after Jews. What about the, the marches
6:31
themselves, though? Because, you know, the I spoke
6:34
to the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, Jonathan
6:38
Hall, and I'm a little surprised, I have to admit to,
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to, to find this reviewer of legislation saying the marches
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themselves need to be halted for now.
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I mean, do do you think that too?
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Well I'm pro the right to protest and freedom of speech
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always works in favour of Jews but there has been a massive
6:58
escalation of anti-Semitic rhetoric at those marches.
7:01
Can we stop those marches? I don't really know, but
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certainly the police need to be more aggressive at stepping in
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when they see this anti-Semitic rhetoric, when there is this
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globalize the intifada. This is what globalizing the
7:13
intifada looks like, attacking views on the street and burning
7:16
synagogues. So so allow the marches, but
7:18
enforce the law. Yeah, exactly.
7:21
I mean, I don't see how you can stop the marches.
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I just, I think that's a quite slippery slope.
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But yes, enforce the law and also for politicians to speak
7:29
more vocally, Labour politicians, particular that
7:32
there is a war going on. You know, there are two sides
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here. It's the idea that Israel is
7:38
more evil, more uniquely evil than Hamas, Hezbollah, the
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Islamic regime is just obscene. And that is anti-Semitism, and
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that causes more anti-Semitism. I mean, what, what is it that
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you you see in the language that says Israel is uniquely evil?
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I mean, you know, because lots of people criticize the war.
7:56
They criticize the Israeli military's behaviour.
7:59
They criticize Netanyahu. Which bits of language do you
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think denotes a feeling that Israel is uniquely evil?
8:08
Well, the entire focus on Israel, certainly from the, you
8:12
know, so-called anti racist left.
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I never see any criticism of the of the other sides, of the
8:18
various other sides. There are the fact that, you
8:21
know, immediately after October 7th, there were protests against
8:23
Israel and this country before Israel had even acted.
8:26
The fact that, you know, there's no longer people don't just say
8:29
but Israel to me they say, but Zionism, the belief that Jews
8:33
have a right to a homeland in itself.
8:34
The fact that Israel is now described regularly in
8:37
newspapers as a colonialist enterprise.
8:40
As genocidal as this is, that without any reference to October
8:43
the 7th, without any reference to the fact that it is under
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constant terrorist attack from all the countries that surround
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it. I am not pro Netanyahu.
8:50
I've always written against Netanyahu's policies.
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But now I see it's something more than criticizing Netanyahu,
8:56
which is criticizing of Israel's existence in itself.
9:00
I mean, how, how, what did you think at the beginning, you
9:04
know, after October the 7th in terms of where this would go?
9:07
I mean, did you expect there to be anti-Semitic attacks?
9:11
I mean, you know, there was a sort of an inevitability, wasn't
9:14
there? October the 7th happened.
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You knew there was going to be an Israeli invasion of Gaza, you
9:19
know, and, and the kickback here as well because that's the way
9:22
it always is. You know, anti-Semitic attacks
9:25
always rise when Israel is at war in Gaza or in the West Bank.
9:30
Yes, I didn't expect so many people who I know or who I
9:35
respect to be so 1 sided in their view.
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My view is that it's a tragedy on both sides and that's
9:40
millions of being killed on both sides.
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What I didn't expect was people to justify October the 7th.
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What I didn't expect was there to be a protest against Israel
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the day after October 7th in New York, the city I'm from, city
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with the largest Jewish population outside of Israel.
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I didn't expect there to be such anti-Semitic demonstrations on
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October the 8th, 2023 in Sydney and in Brighton.
10:01
People were already so outraged at the idea of Israelis Jews
10:07
being victims that they immediately had to demonize
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them. And I feel like that is what is
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happening now. What I see in Golders Green, I
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see people, you know, not just anonymous bots, but online high
10:17
profile progressive people slightly defending or distancing
10:21
themselves from from what is happening because they still
10:24
just have to believe that Israel is so uniquely evil that this is
10:27
all inevitable. I mean, without naming anybody,
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can you just give me an example? Yes, yes, there was a high
10:33
profile historian on social media yesterday who's described
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this as inevitable blowback for Israel's genocide.
10:40
I mean, would they say this if Muslims were being killed in the
10:44
street after, you know, something Hamas had done or
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Hezbollah had done? I don't believe they would.
10:50
I also don't believe that people understand what it's like to
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live in this country. As, you know, as a Jew.
10:54
There are four to five security guards outside my synagogue
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that, you know, when my children go to Hebrew school, they have
10:59
to get their bags checked. Is there any equivalent to that
11:02
outside other religious institutions in this country?
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I don't think so. And has has your synagogue been
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attacked? No, it hasn't, but they've had
11:10
to step up the security around it because 2 synagogues 10
11:13
minutes away have been attacked. That that's, that's recently,
11:17
isn't it? But I mean, security at
11:19
synagogues has been high for quite some time, hasn't it?
11:23
Well, we usually had one or two and now it's regularly four or
11:26
five. And the Telegraph reported
11:29
earlier this week that there were there was a man outside a
11:31
local Jewish primary school that I also know who was taking
11:34
photos and shouting anti-Semitic abuse at the Jewish children
11:37
inside. It's definitely stepped up.
11:39
But yes, it's also damning that synagogues have always had to
11:42
have this kind of security. But what is your view of, of, of
11:46
those Jews who March against the war in Gaza who are very
11:52
critical of Israel, the people in Jewish voice for Labour, you
11:56
know, who are very critical of, of, of all the, you know, the
12:01
action within the Labour Party, you know, do you think, well,
12:05
what do you think of them? Well, I think they're free to
12:07
protest whatever they wish, but if they are only marching
12:11
against Israel and not Hamas and not Hezbollah and not the
12:14
Islamic regime, then there is a different term for them which is
12:18
just useful. Idiots.
12:20
You know there is evil on both sides.
12:22
It's not. One side is all good and one
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side is all bad. Yeah, there are also people who
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say that that, you know, that the Jews I would say, who would
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say that violence and threats against Jewish community is not
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unique and that there are other, you know, Muslim community also
12:41
faces increases in anti Muslim attacks.
12:49
Do you think that's a sort of a false equivalence or or wrong
12:53
inside? Way I don't know of any other
12:57
minority group. When they talk about the hate
13:00
crimes and the violent attacks, they get that the response is
13:02
well, there's also this other group.
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I mean I I only hear that in regards to Jews.
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Are you sure? I mean, is that just what you're
13:11
listening to or I? Don't know.
13:13
I mean, you tell me, Krishna. I mean, if you know, if when I
13:16
hear about a minority group that is under attack, you know,
13:18
someone that I'm not part of it, I don't then respond by saying,
13:22
well, there's also this group. I mean, I suppose what I mean is
13:26
I think a lot of a lot of Muslims, for example, would say
13:28
nobody listens to us when we say we're under attack, you know, or
13:31
they say it's our own fault or it's because of terrorism or
13:33
it's because of al Qaeda or ISIS or, you know, the history of
13:37
violence, you know, So there, there's a similarity in some of
13:42
the argument. And that is tragic, although,
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you know, one recent study found that while there's heightened,
13:48
you know, there are historic levels of anti-Semitic attacks
13:51
in this country. Islamophobia or attacks on
13:54
Muslims are more likely to result in in the person being
13:57
charged, whereas anti-Semitic attacks, that's less likely.
14:00
And the fact is, even aside from all that, anti-Semitic hate
14:04
crimes are at a historic high. There shouldn't need to be
14:07
Hemming and hawing about about it and who's got it worse.
14:10
You know, to use an old phrase, it's not the victim of Olympics.
14:14
But the fact the fact is a man was putting on his yarmulke on
14:17
this on while waiting for the bus and got stabbed.
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I mean, I don't really know what else I can say do.
14:22
Do you, do you hear conversations amongst, you know,
14:25
people at the synagogue and other friends about people
14:28
considering leaving Britain and going to Israel?
14:32
Yes. I mean, you know, some people do
14:33
say that. I'm not going to say that yes,
14:37
of course, and this fear that we are such a small community in
14:40
this country, only 280,000 less than .5% of the population and
14:46
most of us are in northwest London and that is the area that
14:49
is under attack. It just feels very scary.
14:53
I. Mean I I've met people in Israel
14:55
who have moved from Britain recently.
14:58
Do you do you know people who have left because of fear?
15:02
No, I don't know that. And also, I understand why
15:05
people would want to go to a country where there's a bigger
15:07
Jewish population, but I don't really understand why you'd want
15:09
to go to a country that constantly has rockets fired
15:11
into it from enemy, from neighboring enemies.
15:14
Hadley Freeman, thank you very much.
15:17
What do you make of the reaction that we've seen since yesterday
15:23
from those people like the independent reviewer of
15:25
terrorism calling for the, you know, the the pro Palestine
15:30
marches to be banned, you know, for this to become the number
15:34
one priority of the government? What do you make of the call for
15:37
action now? So.
15:38
First of all, one has to understand.
15:41
That. There is an incredibly palpable
15:45
sense of being under attack. 1 cannot be dismissive about that.
15:51
When it comes to how a significant number of Jewish
15:56
people in this country feel after yesterday, after gold is
16:00
green, after the attacks on synagogues that the arson
16:03
attempts, after what happened in Manchester, one should not in
16:08
any way be dismissive of that. This is a absolutely a time for
16:12
care and compassion and to really address how one provides
16:18
safety and security. And if you are a Jew on the
16:21
streets, you must be able to be safe if you're a visible Jew.
16:26
But when these things happen, the tendency is to run to the
16:30
extremes and to create false dichotomies.
16:34
And there is not an incompatibility between Jewish
16:40
safety and civil liberties. We can't create that false
16:44
binary. We as a country, our leaders, as
16:50
a government, people who hold titles like national terrorism
16:54
prevention, have to step up to the moment.
16:57
They mustn't fall into these, these easy false dichotomies.
17:03
You can have and provide for and maximise what you're doing to
17:08
guarantee Jewish safety and guarantee what holds us together
17:12
as a democratic society. The right for legitimate
17:18
peaceful political protest. That's what those marches that
17:21
the appalling suggestion that there should be a moratorium on
17:26
freedom of expression on one issue.
17:29
That sounds to me like something that would encourage more
17:32
anti-Semitism. You can't have a false dichotomy
17:34
between Jewish safety and Palestinian rights if we think
17:37
about what's going on over there.
17:39
So that is absolutely the wrong way to go about addressing this.
17:44
I was just talking to Hadley Freeman, who was who was sort of
17:47
saying there's, there's so much equivocation.
17:49
You know, people basically say, well, what did you expect after
17:54
the Gaza war? You know, do you feel that that
17:57
is a a reaction in Britain? You know that that is a mindset.
18:02
Well, I think the more one runs to say there's an attack on
18:08
Golders Green, you shouldn't be allowed to protest against
18:11
Israel, against Israeli policies, against what it's
18:15
doing. I think that encourages the
18:18
mindset because I think it genuinely suggests that people
18:22
aren't taking anti-Semitism seriously.
18:25
If you're taking anti-Semitism seriously, you speak to
18:28
providing for the well-being of the Jewish community and this is
18:33
a community in Britain. This is not.
18:37
But sorry, just to to say that, you know, I don't think people
18:41
should equivocate in taking seriously these attacks and that
18:47
they need to be addressed. I don't think people should
18:49
equivocate about taking seriously that Israel is in
18:53
violation of international law has been committing war crimes.
18:57
And there should be steps on those that that we can do these
19:00
things at the same time we can, you know, Christian, we should
19:03
be able to hold as as as sentient beings.
19:08
Three thoughts simultaneously. The the Jewish community is
19:13
being targeted in ways that are of course, terrible for the
19:18
community, but also undermine communal and national well-being
19:23
and security in this country. And the government needs to do
19:26
whatever it can, including in consultation with with the
19:30
diverse community that is the Jewish community in this
19:33
country, to stop that. Secondly, that civil liberties,
19:39
the right to protest, the right to express oneself freely within
19:45
the boundaries of the law, and that law shouldn't be changed to
19:48
undermine that right. That is something that you you
19:53
change, you create carve out clauses for at great risk.
19:57
And you should not because first we'll be told you can't protest
20:01
on this and then you won't be able to protest on anything.
20:03
And then we're living in a fundamentally different society.
20:05
And thirdly, you should be able to to to hold the thought that
20:10
Israel is not the arbiter of the well-being of Jewish communities
20:15
here or elsewhere. We should not conflate those
20:18
things. And it it, it saddens me when
20:21
people. In the Jewish community, lean
20:24
into that conflation. I understand, by the way, the
20:28
Israeli position. Israel is a state.
20:30
It uses statecraft if weaponizing anti-Semitism and
20:34
saying oh look this happens, therefore shut up and leave us
20:37
alone to do what we want to do to the Palestinians, Lebanon,
20:40
anything else. I understand how that serves the
20:43
Israeli state interests. I don't understand how that
20:45
conflation serves the well-being of Jewish communities here or
20:49
elsewhere, once you be able to hold those three things
20:51
simultaneously. Could you just explain what
20:53
weaponizing anti-Semitism means to you and it and does it?
20:56
Is it? Is it being done?
21:00
Yeah, I think it means that you take something that is, is is
21:04
real effects people's lives. We've seen that, that, that,
21:09
that it is, is hatred of Jewish people, is attacks against
21:12
Jewish targets. We don't fully know where these
21:15
things are coming from that, you know, maybe there's Intel that
21:17
suggests foreign involvement in operations.
21:21
Maybe there isn't. We're not Privy to that, but
21:24
there is such a thing as anti-Semitism and then there is
21:28
such a thing as saying, you know what, let's play fast and loose
21:32
with what is and what is an anti-Semitism.
21:34
Let's create these catch all definitions where criticism of a
21:38
political ideology, which I believe has led to great harm
21:42
not only to Palestinians, but to Jews, the political criticism,
21:45
political speech up standing up for international law, for human
21:49
rights are suddenly caught up in these attempts to redefine
21:54
anti-Semitism in such a way that lots of people start saying,
21:58
well, you're not serious, that if that's anti-Semitism, then
22:01
I'm not interested in the whole debate.
22:03
And I think that actually contributes to the phenomenon.
22:07
And, and that's the weaponization now, right now,
22:11
those of us who think and speak in those terms have to be more
22:17
cognizant of the fact that people are hurting.
22:21
And so we, we, we have to have that argument and win that
22:24
argument while really genuinely showing that we take
22:29
anti-Semitism when it is real, when Jewish communities are
22:32
being targeted seriously. So so that people aren't allowed
22:35
to to sweep all these things together and and to ignore a
22:40
phenomenon when it is real. And do you think that
22:43
weaponization of anti-Semitism, as you've described it is
22:46
something the Israeli government is doing in its approach, in its
22:52
language? I mean, I'm looking at some of
22:54
the reaction of its PR people, the sort of the people who sort
22:59
of freelance the Israeli state, like Elon Levy, who's tweeting
23:04
Jews are being hunted in Britain.
23:06
What you know, do you think their messaging is, is what's
23:08
feeding that? Well, undoubtedly.
23:11
I mean, there's, I don't think anyone who is looking at this
23:18
objectively could reach any other conclusion than the state
23:24
of Israel sees advantage in intervening and depicting this
23:28
in certain ways. And sadly, the State of Israel
23:31
also sees advantage in trying to pull the Jewish community into
23:36
an untenable position. Don't ask the Jewish community
23:40
to defend the indefensible in terms of what you're doing.
23:44
The the, the rabbis of Progressive Judaism came out
23:47
just in the last days to say that it is necessary for the
23:54
Jewish future to criticize what Israel is doing.
23:57
And Israel wants to shuttle those things down, which is
23:59
nothing new in its essence. And, and this is a hard subject,
24:05
but it's an important one in its essence, the the actual existing
24:10
Zionism in the state of Israel takes a position that the answer
24:15
to anti-Semitism is not to fight to defeat anti-Semitism, but it
24:20
is to up sticks and move to Israel.
24:24
Zionism's essence is that's the only place Jews could be.
24:28
I don't think that's the answer to anti-Semitism.
24:30
I think we have to stay and fight anti-Semitism.
24:33
But if Israel can deploy this, can intervene in ways that muddy
24:37
the waters that say don't talk about what we're doing, don't
24:43
talk about our apartheid system because if you do, you're being
24:46
anti-Semitic. That obviously helps Israeli
24:49
state PR, but it's not a trap we should fall into and we should
24:53
understand that there is real diversity of opinion amongst
24:57
Jews. In a recent poll conducted by a
24:59
very mainstream establishment Jewish Institute, it found that
25:03
the Jewish community in the under 35 category in this
25:07
country is basically split 5050 between those who define
25:10
themselves as non or anti Zionist and those who define
25:13
themselves as Zionist. There are many streams and and
25:16
and variations of thinking in the community.
25:21
We it shouldn't be collapsed into Israel, which doesn't mean
25:24
that anyone who supports Israel deserves to be targeted on the
25:27
streets of Golders, Green, Manchester or anywhere else.
25:30
There are lots of Jews now talking about how they they are
25:33
fearful, they're living in fear. Are you, your family and friends
25:38
living in fear? I speak to people who I am close
25:43
to. You know, Golders Green is an
25:45
epicentre of Jewish life, not just of 1 variation.
25:50
It's an epicentre of Jewish different religious streams of
25:55
people who probably would define themselves as more secular than
25:58
part of any of those religious streams as well.
26:00
We're we're a quite small community and there are there is
26:04
nothing more emblematic of being an epicentre of Jewish life than
26:08
Golders Green. But as a Jewish people, we are
26:11
in an incredibly challenging period because there is, I can't
26:20
remember in my lifetime, a time where there has been such
26:25
existential division amongst Jews within families, within
26:29
communities. Has Israel been a great way
26:36
forward or has Israel been a dramatic wrong turn?
26:39
One of the most globally famous Jewish thinkers, Yuval Noah
26:43
Hariri, spoke in this country just a year ago and said this
26:47
may be the end of Judaism as we know it.
26:51
Because if Israel becomes this militant, extreme,
26:54
fundamentalist place that it is becoming, and if that defines
26:57
Judaism, then where does that leave us?
26:59
So as we as we struggle with these questions of how do you
27:05
protect the Jewish Israeli community?
27:07
How do you protect communities on the outside, how Israel
27:11
contributes to endangering Jews? Is there a way forward where
27:15
Israel is fundamentally transformed from the actual
27:19
existing Zionism to a state that's not predicated on
27:24
disenfranchising Palestinians? Or just one double down on
27:28
Israeli fundamentalism and maximism?
27:30
As all those questions are worked out, I think it's a it's
27:34
a correct and fair thing to say, which is let us work those out
27:38
while our communities are safe and secure in this and any other
27:42
country. I.
27:43
Mean, I mean, so I mean while you're talking on a very big
27:46
scale about existential threat to to Judaism, but you know, but
27:52
on a very local level, do you feel under threat at the moment
27:56
you personally? I do not, but I think there are
28:02
many and I, you know, I don't have the polling.
28:05
I don't think it's possible to do it who do.
28:10
And I and I take my Co religionists and the siege they
28:14
feel they are under seriously, not as an act of, of, of
28:18
attempting to get political special treatment.
28:21
I think this is, this is very real.
28:25
You know, I, I don't tend to think in those terms.
28:29
There are people who who who do more and think in those terms
28:33
and who don't. And what what would you say to
28:35
those people who who were shouting at the Prime Minister
28:38
and the police and the local MP and shouting shame and and Jew
28:45
Harmer at Keir Starmer? There's a few things going on.
28:49
1st. I can understand where that
28:50
comes from in the immediate moment of pain.
28:53
Secondly, you do have part of a Jewish establishment which has
28:58
aligned itself evermore with the right.
29:02
Tommy Robinson was on a visit to Israel recently.
29:04
He met with people who had moved to Israel from the UK.
29:09
You have had the Chief Rabbi of the Orthodox community, a
29:14
minority of the community in this country, weigh in
29:16
politically on several occasions against Labour under anyone's
29:20
leadership. Keir Starmer is about as pro
29:24
Israel and by that therefore I don't think it necessarily means
29:27
pro Jewish by the way, but he is, he has tried to work with a
29:32
Jewish establishment that doesn't want to fall in love
29:36
with him as much as any more than any Labour could lead
29:40
leader could or should at the moment.
29:42
But I think that is also an attempt to play politics in
29:47
those chance. And so it's coming from
29:48
different directions, as one would probably expect.
29:52
Look, the Jewish community as as any community is not a monolith.
29:57
There are all kinds of positions.
29:59
One tends to hear the more raucous vocal extreme positions,
30:05
especially at a time like this. And those tend to coalesce
30:08
around a, a politics that I don't think is is good for
30:15
Jewish well-being. It certainly doesn't place
30:18
Jewish well-being as part of a continuum of anti racist
30:24
politics, of fighting for freedoms in this country, of
30:27
fighting against prejudice, intolerance and extremism.
30:30
And I think that's precisely we should be in that place where,
30:35
you know, if you first they came for the Jews, that kind of
30:38
thinking that we have to be working for a more broadly
30:40
tolerant society, not a society that gives us a special
30:44
dispensation to one group or another.
30:46
I mean, just finally, I mean, I'm sort of nervous to ask this
30:49
question in this way, and I don't know what the right way to
30:50
ask it is. Do you think the Israeli
30:53
government and Netanyahu bear some responsibility for the
30:58
threats to British Jews right now?
31:00
I think the Israeli government is reckless when it comes to how
31:05
they view Jewish well-being. It is a tool for them to deploy
31:12
in advancing their own, let's be frank, criminal intentions in
31:19
the region against Palestinians. And I say that because Netanyahu
31:29
tries to say I'm the Jew on the international stage, to wrap
31:33
himself in Jewish symbolism, to wrap himself in Jewish history.
31:37
He has in the past, and he may well do so again.
31:39
Said your place isn't there, It's here.
31:41
He tries to create the impression that we are all
31:44
responsible for his actions, that we should somehow all stand
31:48
before his actions, that the world should judge us as an
31:51
extension and appendage to Israel.
31:55
He has no mandate to do so. I would argue that is criminally
32:00
negligent at a time like this in terms of how you view Jewish
32:05
well-being and Jewish security, but I have no other expectation
32:08
from them to be to be blunt. Daniel Levy, thank you very
32:11
much. Thank you.
32:13
Quite often we hear about cases where people have been referred
32:17
to prevent but but they haven't been stopped.
32:20
Does that mean prevent is failing?
32:22
I don't think it does. So I think it's reflective of
32:25
the screening process. It sits within Prevent.
32:28
So if you look at the the latest statistics available which were
32:32
to the year ending March 2025, there were 8778 referrals into
32:39
the Prevent programme, most of those coming out of education.
32:42
And out of those 8778 only 17% ended up with a channel panel.
32:51
And, and basically what that means is only 17% went forward
32:56
to voluntary resolution and and the word voluntary is the really
33:00
important word in that sentence just.
33:03
Just unpack that for me. I mean what?
33:05
What does that mean? Well, so you can't force
33:08
somebody to engage with the de radicalisation program.
33:11
They've got to want to engage and if people don't engage,
33:15
there is no statutory control measure that you can put around
33:18
them if they're not committing offences.
33:20
And having a perverse idea, a perverse ideology and, and
33:25
thinking bad thoughts is not sufficient for us to exercise
33:29
statutory control over you unless it fits certain
33:32
categories such as perhaps mental health.
33:36
And, and you know, the law can exercise powers under the Mental
33:39
Health Act to detain people and, or if you're thinking has
33:43
advanced to a stage of perhaps planning or conspiracy to do
33:46
something. But typically those people that
33:49
engage with the prevent program, that 17% that move into a
33:54
channel referral to de radicalise them are there on a
33:58
voluntary basis. Now, it's worth mentioning that
34:01
the the the other 83% they're, they're not just left to their
34:06
own devices. In many cases, about 50% of them
34:11
end up being referred to other agencies for support.
34:15
And those other agencies might be back to the school, for
34:19
example, if it's a youth referral, or it might be to
34:22
local social services or mental health services if it's deemed
34:26
that that's the appropriate body to deal with them.
34:28
How much of a link is there in general between people who are
34:32
radicalised and those people having mental health problems?
34:39
So I don't think that data's available to be honest with you.
34:43
I think we can talk anecdotally around it and, and we've
34:46
obviously seen outside of a terrorism context, we've seen
34:49
obviously Rudy Gabbana in Southport having multiple
34:53
referrals to multiple agencies that would have also included
34:57
some elements of mental health. I I don't think that data
35:01
exists. I mean, because it's quite a
35:04
controversial area, particularly with the police who, you know,
35:06
who have been saying that they've been almost overused in
35:11
terms of mental health crises. Do you think there has been a
35:15
reluctance to engage with people you know who may be in that
35:21
category rather than, you know, the dangerous, radicalised
35:27
potential terrorists? No, I don't think so.
35:31
And you know, we have the definition of terrorism for a
35:34
reason and it's there to allocate finite resources to the
35:39
greatest threat. If we treated everybody in the
35:42
same bucket, we would very, very quickly run out of both policing
35:46
and intelligence resources. So when you look at that 8778
35:50
referrals, 56% of them had no ideology whatsoever.
35:55
So they didn't remotely get anywhere near being the debt
35:59
towards the definition of terrorism.
36:02
And quite appropriately they are then referred off to whoever can
36:05
best help them. You know, if we try to operate a
36:09
system differently to that, it would require very, very many
36:12
more resources and are currently available to support it.
36:16
Interestingly, when you then look at the remaining, you know,
36:20
percentages, 21% were the in the extreme right wing and only 10%
36:26
were Islamist extremist referrals.
36:29
So we've seen a real change in dynamics over the last decade,
36:33
probably of the greatest number of referrals traditionally
36:36
having been from the Islamist threats shifting now back
36:40
towards the right wing. And that of itself is something
36:44
that we've got to figure out how to manage and how to how to deal
36:47
with, particularly when we look at the management of large scale
36:51
right wing protests. Do you think there's a better
36:53
system that could be developed? Look, we frequently come back to
37:01
this situation, don't we? Where we seem to frequently come
37:04
back to this situation where attackers have had contact with
37:09
the Prevent programme and then gone on to commit offences at
37:13
later points. My view is that the Prevent
37:16
programme is pretty much as good as it can be within the limits
37:20
of finance resources, social appetite for exercising coercive
37:25
control over people. That's a really important one.
37:27
You know, we live in a liberal democracy.
37:29
We, we don't subject people to arbitrary, you know, state
37:32
operated facilities unless they commit crimes.
37:36
So I think it's probably as good as it can be.
37:39
Does that mean that it's infallible?
37:41
No, not not remotely. We've seen that.
37:43
I think the other thing that we have to keep in mind is that you
37:46
can have contact with the prevent referral and they can be
37:50
a really successful contact. Your views can be challenged and
37:53
you can, you know, come out the end of it being renewed and
37:57
refreshed with your views of the world.
37:59
But for some reason we have seen sometimes years later, people
38:03
then re engage with perverse thoughts and then go on and
38:06
commit attacks. That certainly happened back in
38:08
2017. So it's not an infallible
38:11
programme, it's not a forever programme.
38:13
Fundamentally, we're dealing with people and their thoughts.
38:16
So. So when people shout at
38:17
politicians for failing to be able to guarantee their safety,
38:23
you never could, could you? We we don't live in a world
38:27
where people's safety is guaranteed.
38:29
We haven't lived in that world ever.
38:30
I don't think from a terrorism perspective, 2014 changed all
38:36
that with the declaration by the Islamic State caliphate for
38:39
people to stay at home, pick up a weapon.
38:43
You know, I think the words were pick up a knife, pick up a rock,
38:45
use a car and attack people in in the places where you come
38:49
from. And that that moment in time was
38:53
what I described as the franchising of terrorism.
38:55
It meant that anybody could be a terrorist using anything as a
38:58
weapon against any target at any time.
39:01
And that low sophistication becomes incredibly undetectable.
39:04
And then from the perspective of the people who are committing
39:07
those attacks, the opportunity to intervene and divert
39:11
extremist thoughts has been also become really limited because a
39:15
lot of this happens sitting at home in isolation, looking at
39:19
material on the Internet and self radicalising.
39:22
You know, no longer are we seeing these big conspiracies
39:24
where somebody in a distant country might be provoking
39:27
somebody to commit attacks in England.
39:29
We're seeing people who are motivating themselves on what
39:32
they're seeing on the Internet and then going out and trying to
39:34
commit harm. Nicole Wood, thank you very much
39:35
indeed. You're welcome.
39:37
And that's the forecast. Until next time, bye bye.