Latest / HOTLCAST / Obedience, Awkwardness, and the McDonald's Follow-Up

Transcript

Obedience, Awkwardness, and the McDonald's Follow-Up · HOTLCAST

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome back to the Hobcast.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, we're here this morning on a wonderful crisp day in October.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: It is crisp, you're not wrong.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_03: It is crisp.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: It felt nice this morning.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna be honest with you.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_03: That first that first morning, that first morning when you walk out and you're like, oh, it's cold.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's actually cold.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the first chip out of a bag, yeah.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: I always like it.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Do you guys not like it?
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's in the 30s this morning, 38, whenever I walked out the door.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_03: So I there's something refreshing about that.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's like when you're outside, you're sweating, you come into the AC and you're like, oh, refreshing.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's like the safe thing.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like, oh my gosh, fall is the moment AC.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's great.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: Kicking on for the first time.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in support of that thought process.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: I like, I mean, I like jacket weather, sweatshirt weather, long pants.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's good, like comfy boots.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: That's this is the time.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_03: This is the time.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: You want to be able to put on your Uggs and go out shopping and you know it.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_03: Be making fun of my Uggs.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: Disclaimer, I don't own a pair of Ugs, but anymore.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: Young's two.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, own two.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: I don't, I don't really, I've never, I don't know what I know like all the girls wear uggs, so that's all I know.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_03: I know guys have Ugs now, too.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: They have like a men's line of Ugs.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: I did not know that.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: I would I would wear Uggs.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: I do a little shout out here.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: Shane Michaels turned me out of this.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: Got this white pair of Furian boots for that are like like fleece lined from Amazon.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: I got a pair, Chance Blackburn got a pair, like a bunch of us got pairs.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: It they're the comfiest boots I've ever had.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: They're waterproof, they're warm.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: They're great.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: Link available in the bio.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: Link in bio.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_03: No, but I'm just really Shane.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for that if you're listening.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, so um, but I love fall.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: I love fall because fall is like it's the time where everything starts to change.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I think when we start talking about change and the weather and so on and so forth, I think it also, for me anyways, like fall is this place that kind of like stirs, like, okay, something's happening, something's about to take place because we're kind of it's the deep breath before the plunge into the the Thanksgiving, Christmas, holiday really nightmare for a lot of people.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's just a lot, there's a lot going on in the holidays, and it's fun and it's great, but it's a whirlwind of stuff, and so fall is almost like that deep breath at pause where you kind of reorient, you realign, you figure out what you're gonna do, and and then you take the plunge.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: At least that is for me.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_03: So when we start talking about that, you know, I I think change is good, and I think that in in in light of that, I know that this past Sunday a lot of people had some conversations about some things that were convicting to them.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like we started our first series at Dungeons and Dragons in Brooklyn.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: What and you guys and Jackson, what'd you guys do on Sunday?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, we did Find Your Fit.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: We did our first one for that.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_03: So I know you guys have been gearing up for that for like months.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: We have excited for that.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_03: So um, but specifically, you know, when we were talking about our our series in in Brooklyn, Kyle and I jokingly a couple weeks ago were like, yeah, we should do Dungeons and Dragons.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: And then we both looked at each other and I'm like, why can't we?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: We should.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: And like, and I liked how he started off.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: He's like, some of you, Mike, think this is weird.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_03: Some of you, like, some of you grew up in households where Dungeons and Dragons was of the devil and you should never do that.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: And he was just like trying to explain, like, no, it's it's it's really not about that.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's really more like it's it's more of a a community-building thing, it's a friendship thing, like you know, and we're not really focused on the game Dungeons and Dragons.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_03: We're really just talking about what are the things that keep us in chains and what are some of the challenges that we face, because that's really what Dungeons and Dragons represents.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: The things that keep us locked down, right?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_03: What keeps us in chains, and what are the things that you know, the big challenges that we have to face.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so when we were thinking about it, Dungeons and Dragons kind of was a cool title.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: And every October at the Brooklyn campus, we do something that is like a little bit off or like sci-fi or adventure themed to kind of fit with our Hodlewien, because I it's October.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the first time that I ever really noticed what you guys were doing with that was easily with Lions, Tigers, and Bears.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yeah.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then after that when you had done Angels and Demons, right?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Is that yeah?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's correct.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_03: And we did modern day monsters, and we did so we talked about like joy vampires.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_03: We talked about joy vampires, like people in your life to steal your joy.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_03: So that's still one that people love, like modern day monsters, but we've done a bunch of them over the years.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: I totally heard that as modern day monsters the first time you said it, and I'm thinking I'm gonna be honest with you.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_03: I I was I was confronted about this.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know the difference in the pronunciation.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_03: You guys say it, and I can't hear the difference between the two words.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Between monsters and monsters?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I can't.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's I'm just gonna be honest.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if I'm deaf to that sound and I've been saying things wrong my whole life, but I always say monster because that's what I hear and that's what I say.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_03: So if it's wrong, I'm sorry.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_03: I know it's a cheese too.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: So if I'm doing that wrong.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I didn't know what it was.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we still call that monster cheese.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: I've always called it monster monster energy drinks because they're monster to me.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: Wee wee.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so but anyways, so so yeah, so this week was this week was kind of cool what we got to talk about.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I know that you know, it as a result, I know we've had conversations with people, um, but also we've had people tell us that they're having tough conversations because the theme this week was obedience.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: How are you obedient to having tough conversations?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: And when can you speak up?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like when should you speak up and tell somebody something they might not want to hear?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, I I think those are some of the things that we've been discussing.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that the the nuance in that is incredibly important because there's so many Christians, especially, that they look at it, they're like, Well, people need to know that what they're doing is wrong.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's true, but you don't stand on the busiest street corner with the biggest bullhorn announcing to everybody that you know, repent or you know, go to hell or turn or burn or any of those sorts of things.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: There has to be a relationship.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be able to be willing to build a bridge strong enough to bear the weight of truth.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: And the moment that you're willing to kind of accept that and look at that and be able to put in that time and put in that investment, then the people that you're in your in your life, your community, the people that are surrounding you will know, okay, this is not coming from a place of them trying to convict me.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: This is not coming from a place of an accusation, this is coming from a place of this person loves me, this person cares about me, and they don't just want me to do what they want me to do.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: They want me to do what's best for me.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: And once somebody can hear that and see that and recognize that in the behaviors that you put out, in the actions that you demonstrate and the words that you use, that changes the entire dynamic of trying to have that kind of a conversation where you can sit down across from someone who is genuinely dealing with something and say, Hey, man, listen, I love you.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: I genuinely care about you.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: And they hear that and they recognize that and they understand that first, and then say, But the things that you're doing right now, man, they're kind of destructive.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I need to be honest with you, it's not what God has in store for you, it's not what he has in mind for you, and I want to be able to see you get past this, get beyond this, and be able to do better.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, and I think you're right, man.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's building those relationships, right?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you if if if if I show up in the way that I declare myself as being and and and on a consistent basis, and I build those relationships and I create that that that that courageous space, that that safe space, uh that container, you know, with my people, then then both I it's a it's a 360 thing too, right?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and and I and I think when you have those hard conversations, I mean for me, for me, I got so many filters in my life.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you guys heard me say it like, does it need to be said?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: Does it need to be said right now?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: Does it need to be said by me?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: I I ask myself that every time somebody comes to me and they say, Hey, what do you think about this?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I go, mmm, do you do they uh how's this container?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: Is this person open, you know, and and willing to hear what I have to say?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: Do they really care about what I have to say, or are they looking to just further their own point?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and and do I have buy-in, right?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: Do they know that I love them deeply and I want nothing from them and everything for them?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: Do they know that I I I have no skin in their game and I am not trying to take from them?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: And and and if the answer to any of that stuff is ever no, I just listen.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: And and that's wise.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: Seriously.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's like very wise.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: And there's also the dichotomy of like they should know, right?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: Like it should they know, they should know by now, right?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: And if they should know by now, it's it's kind of I need to be obedient to saying the things, right?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: Not just do they know, but they should know by now.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_03: By all the things, you know, our relationship, the way that we've lived, and if they and I my responsibility to telling them something, right, has to be dependent one on obedience and faithfulness and the relationship, right?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like, do I have a relationship enough to tell them something, right?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like, because I think there's been times where I go, I'm gonna this might be a roll of the dice, but I I really feel like it's if I don't say it, I'm worried that maybe I'm not being faithful to what God's told me to do, right?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_03: Because how many times this is one thing that somebody came up to me and you know, I had I had two distinct people.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: There's a f a few that you know, after the service, you guys know people come up to you.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_03: I was really convicting God, and I feel like and that that's so cool, it's such a cool moment.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: But two people that I have a relationship with are like, hey, I know I've really gotta have a tough conversation, I don't know how it's gonna go.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm I'm a little concerned.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm a little concerned, I'm gonna lose a relationship.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: And uh my statement from my own experience from how God has pulled through on these things was I I get that.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_03: And if God's nudging you, then there's a good chance that you're supposed to have that conversation in love.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: And here's the deal it might go poorly.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: That's I mean, that's the reality.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: It might go bad, it might you might lose that friendship for a time.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_03: You might lose that friendship indefinitely.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_03: But if you don't have that conversation, right?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: If that that pivotal important conversation, is there a chance that nobody does?
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: And is there a chance that nobody speaks truth into that person's life?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_03: For me, I there's been times where I'm like, I know this is gonna end our friendship, but I have to this I have to talk about it.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I've I've had to have tough conversations in months down the road, years down the road.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_03: I probably have a couple dozen people this has happened with, months down the road, years down the road, that they come back and they go, and this has nothing to do with me being right.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_03: They go, You were right, thank you for saying that.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: I wasn't at a place where I was ready to hear it.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_03: And somebody came along and said the same things to me because I think what happens is sin has a tendency to affect everybody around you, right?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_03: It in in in varying degrees.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_03: And the closer you get, the more sin affects you.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: The more, like the closer we are in relationship, the more our sin is going to affect the people around us.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I call that the cost, right?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's the how I the language I use is so great.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: So that the language I use is my aliveness and the aliveness of the ones closest to me.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like my connection and and the ones closest to me, their connection with God.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: Heck yeah, man.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm totally with you.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: So when it comes down to it, I think that those are cyclical things.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_03: And when we don't deal with those sins, when we have enough like I need to be confronted on those things.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I hope, and my prayer is that when I'm confronted, that my that I my spirit is that I'm ready to take that in, that I'm humble enough to take that in.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: That's not always the case.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_03: I don't always handle it well.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: So I can't expect that everybody's always going to handle that truth well because truth is volatile, but it's volatile towards sin, right?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_03: And what it's doing is it's addressing the sin that's in our life, uh uh making us forced to confront it.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: And when we're not at a place where we're ready to confront it, a lot of times our reaction to it is is from a place of hurt and from a place that that sin is affected, right?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: And so when I think about it, I'm like, uh there have been times I've been super defensive, and I'm like, I'm talking to that person for a while.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: And then when when God kind of keeps chipping away at my heart and goes, you were the jerk, like you were the like me.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's me, I'm the problem, right?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like so, and then I go, Oh man, I go back to that person, I go, Oh, I'm so sorry, I was the problem, and you were right, and I appreciate you being faithful to saying that.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: You I think that that's what happens, and so that obedience, and I the scripture is so clear.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's so many passages.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: If you look at 1 Samuel 15, it talks about what our obedience means to God.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_03: If you look at Deuteronomy 7, it looks at our talks about our obedience to God.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like there's all these passages in scripture, especially in the New Testament, that talk about our obedience to God and what it yields, and our obedience yields favor with God and men, meaning that when we're obedient, even if it's a tough situation, that like what we're doing is pleasing to the Lord, and that we know that the Bible also tells us that his word never returns uh void, meaning that when we do share that, even if we're not the one to solve the problem, we were being faithful to being truth, truthful to somebody, and somebody else might come along and uh reap what we have sowed, and they may help work through that situation, that person's life.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so the question is, is it more important for that person to find healing from their sin or for you to retain a relationship?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I would argue it's always more important for us to address and heal, help people heal from sin, because that's our that's our mission and vision as followers of Christ, is to be in community with one another in a system of imperfect accountability to living and I and loving people more like Jesus Christ.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: So anything that keeps us from that we have to be careful with.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think that it's kind of a both and because if you're gonna be you need to be willing to speak into somebody's sin issues whenever you have, again, you know, built that relationship, you've developed that into something where you have the ability to speak into that.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: But we also can't ever look at relationships as yeah, okay.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like it can't ever just be sort of a, you know, well, I have to say this, and whatever it's gonna be, it's gonna be.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because that speaks into you may be right, but is it loving?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that ultimately becomes the question is you know, one of the things is restore gently.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's okay to say, yeah, I'm gonna restore, gently is the key component of how we do that.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: So all of this stuff points back to the culture of honor.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like every single ounce of it that we're talking about with this is exactly what that kind of points back to is the way you're interacting with people and the way you are loving them through their issues, loving them through their sins, walking down roads with them.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just a one-way street.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like you and I know this.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: We've been at churches where some really bad stuff has gone down over the years.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the pastors that we had had an interaction with at one point in time, after I had become a senior pastor in Martinsburg, West Virginia, I had reached out to him.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is before Kyle even started talking culture of honor.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I reached out to him and I'm like, hey, I don't even know if you remember me, but I just wanted to tell you the way I handled myself whenever we had our disagreement was inappropriate.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: I shouldn't have said the things the way that I said them.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: I still don't agree with the direction that you took things, I still don't agree with anything like that.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: But now that I'm in the role of senior pastor, and now that I see some of the stresses and the challenges and the hardships and the heartaches, I recognize that what I did and what I said may have done some damage to you.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: And as a result of that, I need to apologize.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I wasn't even sure if he was going to reply to the email.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: I really wasn't.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: And he actually did.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: He he messaged back and it was really kind and forgiving.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, the stuff that he did was wrong.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: The stuff he's doing now might be, I don't really know him anymore.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know any of those details.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: But what I do know is that I had to do that because it was the right thing to do.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that matters more than how I feel about it in the moment.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: Oh gosh, how much, how much, how often do we really want to do the right thing?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: The right thing and the easy thing are never the same thing.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I do I will say this.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_03: I think that as we fall in love with the heart of Christ more, like the idea the heart of Jesus, it becomes easier to do the right thing.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_03: It becomes more of a habit, habitual thing that we know to do the right thing.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_03: But it it comes down to like how how are we pursuing that too?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: Because we're never doing it perfectly.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: I'm never I'm never pursuing Christ perfectly.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: I'm an imperfect person.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: So when I pursue Christ, it is always gonna be from a flawed nature, and I'm always gonna miss miss uh miss things or mess up things.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: And so when it comes down to I need to be careful that like I'm pursuing Christ in a way that is is glorifying to God, but also humble enough to go, I might be wrong, I might be wrong, and I need to adjust if I'm wrong.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think, Mark?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's very important to lovingly walk through it because I know people like as I was thinking about this as you guys were talking about like being loving and gracious, where some people will take the stance of, well, I'm just I just tell it straight.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: I just say how it is, I'm just gonna tell you the way it is and the way it needs, and I I respect the firmness of communicating the issue and presenting the problem, but I also think there is a purposeful nuance to how you address it with somebody, like understanding what's going to connect with them and click with them.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Different people will respond to information differently, and that's why the relationship building is so important, is because then you know how they operate, you know the things that work for them, you you know the ways that they can you can connect with them to try and get the info to them.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Some people are gonna be inconsolable no matter what, but at the very least, we as followers of Christ did the effort to try and figure out okay, I love you, I care about you, and I want you to hear the truth, and I'm gonna lovingly do it by finding the way to get it to you and send it to you, like like an email.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Some people never read their emails, so if you were to send an email to somebody like that, like that person would see it like two years later, maybe when they're like, wait a second, I recognize that name.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, I mean, and it's not just the medium in which you use, but like the personality in which the person has, like, you need to be assessing that and considering that.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: I know people have done that for me.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: I try to do that for people, and that way that kind of opens them to be most receptive to what you're trying to correct.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think there's something to be said too, where if you don't, as especially as a pastor, more so than anything else, but as a Jesus follower in general, if you don't accept somebody saying the hard things to you and being willing to hear the hard things being brought your direction and have the people in your life that can speak into, hey man, listen, I love you, but you really just screwed that up.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you don't take that well, you are never going to be able to give it well whenever you need to have those conversations with someone else.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you don't know how to receive it and recognize, okay, this was said to me in a way that is genuinely concerned for my spiritual growth, my development, my well-being, whatever the label might be under, if I'm not able to handle that whenever it comes my direction, I'm never going to be able to give it to somebody else in a loving, compassionate, caring way.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I can be obedient to what God wants me to say all day long.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: But if I'm doing damage to the person that I'm saying it to, I'm not doing it the way God wanted me to do it.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: And those are two different things.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I like the you might be right, but is it loving?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: It reminds me of the speck in the plank analogy.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't mean you don't address it, it doesn't mean you don't approach it.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: It means you make sure you love when you do.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like you might be right, but is it loving?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you can be right.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: That is okay.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes that's great.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: But the most important thing is loving the person through it.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: Same way like with the speck in the plank.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: I love that passage because it's because people you I always heard people misrepresent it where it's like, oh, don't judge me.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, well, I have to be aware of my shortcomings and what I need to fix in the situation so that I can help you properly.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, let me give you a practical way that we can live this out.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: I love this.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, this is I I've learned this over the years.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: It really works well, I think.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's it that's actually really helped save some of these hard conversation dynamics that I've had to have with people.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_03: I always do, I call it the McDonald's follow-up.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: Like, and I'm not suggesting you have to go to McDonald's, but what I'm saying is like if you have a hard conversation with somebody, the next everybody, their natural sinful uh uh regression here is to just hole away and avoid the relationship.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I make it impossible to do that.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_03: And so what I do is like I'll have a hard conversation, and then I will, in the end of that conversation, schedule a hangout or something that ties us relationally together.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: So, like for Mark, Mark, I had to, we was in high school, I had to say some hard things to Mark and I love Mark dearly.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: And literally at the end of the conversation, I said, tomorrow morning, we're going to get breakfast at McDonald's because I love you.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: And like that's like I don't want you to think that our interaction has broken the relationship.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think that's the hardest part for people.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: When they hear that truth, if they hear that truth and there's no relational follow-up with that truth, then you now you've definitely lost.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like, because now the thought in their head and how Satan uses that separation.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they must hate me because they don't now.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_03: Not only did I screw up in because we when we get called, we all kind of know.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like nobody's so oblivious that they're not like, okay, there's truth to that.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_03: We when we hear truth, we acknowledge we like some people are completely oblivious to it because they decided they want to believe what the lie is.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: But when it comes down to it in those relational experiences with friends, Right.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: The McDonald's follow up is really, really important because they're like, hey, I have to have a hard conversation with you, but I'm going to wade through the awkwardness of what we just had to go through because I I love you and I I am going to relationally do it.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: I'm loving it.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: So, but I mean like like that's I think that's important.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_03: That it could be coffee, it could be like it could whatever your thing is with that person.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what's your what's your thing with that person?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, what do you what do you do?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: What do you have fun going and doing with that person?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: You affirm that person in that relationship, which builds the bridge back stronger to bear more truth in the future.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_03: And it also gives them an opportunity.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: Here's the deal.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: It gives sometimes I've gone to those those morning breakfasts and say, hey, you said this, and I just want to clarify some things.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: And like I had time to let it settle.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: And like I don't agree with this, this, and this.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: And it also can open the door for another conversation about the whole thing.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a reminder that the relationship's good and the fact that the conversation happened didn't break it.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like for me, like I that's how I felt.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because like my brain, I remember when you would have those that conversation, those conversations with me when I was being a dummy.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: I still do from time to time.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like that was a reminder, like, because my brain goes to default, like, oh no, worst case scenario.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I I failed so much that these people are now done with me.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's not worth it.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: So they're they're telling me, Oh, you're we're letting you go in our life.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Bye, peace out.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: You screwed up too much.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like, so you do the conversation and you would say it, but I wouldn't hear it because I was hearing what I wanted to hear and what I was scared of hearing.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then you'd be like, Let's go get food tomorrow.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, wait.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the whole story I've been building in my brain while we've been talking fell apart a little bit.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, your thing could be golf, it could be video games, it could be card games, it could be walks, it could be like like people have their everybody has their thing in their relationship that connects them.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like, go back to the fundamentals of that after you've had a tough conversation, after you've been obedient to come confronting somebody on something that's really tough, and and try and follow up with something that unifies you together instead of bringing more.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: Now, if they text you and go, like, I never want to hear block my number and never talk to me again.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_03: Well, then that's I mean, you you just have to live with that.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_03: You have to live in the in the okay, I was obedient.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_03: This is not fun.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_03: I don't enjoy this.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: I I I mean, I've had interactions with people like that.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_03: They I've had people storm out of my office and go, like, I never, you know, I've had people flip me off, cuss me out, like leave and tell me I never want to talk to you again and block my number and then say nasty things about me.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: But I I can't worry about that.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_03: I have to be faithful and obedient to what God's told me to do and speak in truth and love in that person's life.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I have to I have to just trust the Lord.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_03: At the end of the day, I have to trust the Lord that God is gonna resolve it the way that God deems it fit to be resolved, and I have to just be faithful with those things.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's you know, for me, that's kind of where it comes what it comes down to.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it's a that sense of of of love versus fear, right?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like if I'm coming from a place of love and and all I am is love, and that's where my heart's at, and I'm going, hey, I love you enough to tell you the truth because eight billion people in the world, and most of them don't give a darn about you.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's why they'll tell you what you want to hear and also take from you in the same breath.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely for me, I won't tell you what you want to hear, I'll tell you the truth.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: And if you like it, great.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't, great.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's not it's not gonna move the needle in my life.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: My job isn't to make you comfy, my job is you know to to to honor you and and love you in a way that is truthful.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so but also I had a thought too when you said uh, you know, that that that making that right, um, um setting that date up afterwards.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: I I I couldn't help but think about like me and Tara.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like in our in our relationships, we don't always agree on everything.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, and but when we when we disagree and and things get kind of like that, we always end it with, you know, looking at each other's perspective, and we always make sure we hug each other and tell each other we love each other when we're done.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: And and it's it's so simple, but it's the same exact thing you're talking about, right?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's the same in marriage.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: Well, how many times in our marriages, you know, for those who are single or married, like how many times in your in your your your marriages, your romantic relationships, you're gonna have to say hard things sometimes.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like, if you want to have a healthy relationship, that's just a byproduct of healthy relationships.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: Saying tough things happens sometimes.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, well, if you're married, like if you have to say a tough thing, carve out the time, have the conversation, and then go on a date.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like, do like do something fun, like do something that connects you together.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like, and and not in a way that is like, okay, well, I have to check this off my box.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: No, actually lovingly care enough about that person to say, I'm willing to, like, I think the whole thing is we just get awkward, right?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: And we don't want to wade through the awkwardness or that tension that exists.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_03: Like, tension is not a bad thing.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: We've trained our brains to go, I don't want to be in that tension.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what if they say something?
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like, okay, well, then re-engage it.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like, then the conversation's back open and there's another opportunity for God to work, right?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_03: Don't run away from it, run towards it.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's the biggest thing, right?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: With the right heart.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: With the right heart.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you run toward it where you're already like, and another thing, that's not not the direction you want to go.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_03: It's not another, yeah.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_03: You're love, I think it's really important, right?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_03: That McDonald's breakfast is not for you to re-address the issue yourself.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: You've already addressed the issue.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I think that's a really important clarification.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: For me, it was never a time for me to just hop on and go.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes it would be like, hey, I just are you okay?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_03: Like, are we good?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like that, that's okay.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like, and you go, Yeah, we're good.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I need to process through some some things, or I need to I need to figure out how kind of how I feel about all of it, but we're good.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_03: And like, and I reaffirming my love, my my care for that person, and like I I just think those are those are like crucial, vital next steps that we avoid.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think we just avoid it.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of like that first conversation is for you to speak, the second conversation is for you to listen.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: So that McDonald's breakfast is a great place to I wouldn't say not so much listen.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's more for you to affirm.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's more for you to affirm.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like that, that that uh McDonald's breakfast, you know, the McDonald's follow-up.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: I that's why I call it because I just that's the been the go-to for a lot of meetings, because it's McDonald's.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_03: Everybody generically likes McDonald's every once in a while.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so you just go, hey, let's go do something.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_03: And it makes sure that you have that touch point where they don't feel like you're just running away or you're abandoning them.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_03: Because everybody, I uh whether they like it or not, everybody has just a s whether it's large or small, has a fear of the rejection that comes after being told something tough, and that the consequences of my actions have rendered my relationship null and void.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: It puts the rhythm back in after the road bump happens.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, it's a great way to say it.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: So but yeah, so that's a good challenge for the week.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, good challenge.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_03: So if you are at a place where God you feel like God's telling you to have tough conversations, like go have them.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: Go have them in love.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: And you might not say all the right stuff.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: That's the hard part.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_03: But when you start to get in a rhythm of speaking truth and love and being obedient to having those conversations, right?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: I what what has happened for us and what has I know has happened for many others who begin that rhythm is they learn how to say it in love and they learn how to prove it.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so don't don't forget to have those tough conversations and then have the follow-up.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_03: Like make sure that they know how much you love them after the fact.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_03: So this has been another episode of the HODL cast as we talked about obedience and being obedient to what God's asked us to do.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, until next time, check us out on hodlstrong.com, hotlstrong.com, or all of our social medias.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for tuning in.