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Killer Thriller: The Teenage Affair and Murder That Shocked America · Legally Brunette

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Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ. Holmes present Killer Thriller with your
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Speaker 1: host Alisa Donovan.
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Speaker 2: Hi, guys, it's Jen Fessler from Killer Thriller Documentary Edition.
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Speaker 2: Here with Alisa Donovan from Killer Thriller. Hello, my love, Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello.
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Speaker 3: How are we doing?
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Speaker 1: I'm so doing great. Yeah, apparently I'm a bad mom,
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Speaker 1: but everything else is great.
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Speaker 3: Welcome. It's actually a really fun club to be part of.
0:36
Speaker 1: Yep.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, that will pass.
0:38
Speaker 1: Thank you.
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Speaker 3: I promise you that'll give it about ten years.
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Speaker 1: Oh okay, only that only ten Yeah all right.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Well, today we are diving into I don't
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Speaker 2: know if you guys will remember the Pamela's Smart case,
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Speaker 2: but I actually didn't.
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Speaker 3: I don't think you did either.
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Speaker 1: Lisa, right, So I remember this case very well, but
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Speaker 1: I didn't remember that was her name. I was thinking,
1:03
Speaker 1: is this related to Elizabeth Smart? But I do remember
1:06
Speaker 1: the case.
1:08
Speaker 3: Yeah, I had to be a little refreshed.
1:10
Speaker 2: So what happened was, guys, if you don't remember, it
1:13
Speaker 2: was a murder that became this national sensation. It happened
1:17
Speaker 2: more than thirty five years ago, and it is suddenly
1:20
Speaker 2: back in the headlines. So Pamela Smart is right now,
1:23
Speaker 2: serving life without parole for her role in the nineteen
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Speaker 2: ninety murder of her husband, Greg, who was shot and
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Speaker 2: killed by fifteen year old Billy Flynn. So he was
1:33
Speaker 2: a student that Pamela was having an affair with. She
1:36
Speaker 2: was twenty two at the time, and there were three
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Speaker 2: other kids that were involved, maybe four actually, But now
1:42
Speaker 2: she is fighting for a new trial, So there's all
1:44
Speaker 2: these new questions about the evidence that convicted her, What happened?
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Speaker 2: Why is the case back in court? You know, could
1:51
Speaker 2: one of America's most notorious murder convictions actually be reopened?
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Speaker 3: So that's what we're going to talk about.
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Speaker 2: And I watched the documentary and Alice watched the docudrama. Okay,
2:04
Speaker 2: So basically, guys, May first, nineteen ninety, twenty four year
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Speaker 2: old Greg Smart was shot and killed inside his dairy
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Speaker 2: New Hampshire condominium. So his then twenty two year old wife,
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Speaker 2: Pamela Smart, was a high school media coordinator who had
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Speaker 2: been having a sexual relationship with fifteen year old student
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Speaker 2: William Billy Flynn, and the prosecutors alleged that Smart orchestrated
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Speaker 2: the murder because she feared losing everything in a divorce.
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Speaker 2: Flynn testified that Smart told him she needed Greg killed
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Speaker 2: and threatened to end their relationship if he did not
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Speaker 2: kill him. So Smart has consistently denied ordering the murder.
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Speaker 1: Okay, and so the actual murder, Billy Flynn and seventeen
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Speaker 1: year old Patrick Randall entered the Smart home. Randall held
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Speaker 1: a knife to Greg Smart's throat while Flynn shot him
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Speaker 1: in the head. They both later pleaded guilty to second
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Speaker 1: degree murder and testified for the prosecution and then the conviction.
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Speaker 1: In ninety one, Pamela Smart was convicted of being an
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Speaker 1: accomplice to first degree murder and other crimes, and she
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Speaker 1: was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.
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Speaker 1: And then, you know, the trial became one of the
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Speaker 1: first in the country broadcasts live on television from beginning
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Speaker 1: to end.
3:18
Speaker 2: So there's so much about this that, you know, watching
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Speaker 2: the documentary that I'm sort of like, I cannot believe
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Speaker 2: that these boys that, by the way, specifically the boy
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Speaker 2: Billy who actually pulled the trigger is now out of jail,
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Speaker 2: as well as the two other boys that were accomplices.
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Speaker 2: And it's it's sort of crazy because one of them
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Speaker 2: was actually inside what had happened. The other one was
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Speaker 2: driving the getaway car and uh, you know, provided the gun,
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Speaker 2: so you know she's in there. But there's it's it
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Speaker 2: was such a weird twist and turn in story. At
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Speaker 2: least from the documentary, there was not it wasn't really
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Speaker 2: about DNA evidence, Like all these people sort of came
3:59
Speaker 2: clean pretty quick.
4:00
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, but maybe this is also why she
4:04
Speaker 1: thinks she deserves a new trial. I mean, we have
4:07
Speaker 1: to talk about that. Why does she think that she
4:10
Speaker 1: deserves a new trial now, because it's something with the
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Speaker 1: that she thinks that the evidence wasn't wasn't presented properly.
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Speaker 1: And anytime that these things come up where it's about
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Speaker 1: you know, evidence being botched or mismanaged or something, that
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Speaker 1: always to me just feels like, well, they're still guilty,
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Speaker 1: but this is a technicality they're trying to get out on, right.
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Speaker 2: Well, yes, I yeah, I think it's well this in
4:39
Speaker 2: this particular case, there was they had taped Pamela's well friend,
4:44
Speaker 2: but she was younger.
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Speaker 3: Pamela was kind of the.
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Speaker 2: Mentor to this younger girl that pam worked in the
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Speaker 2: high school. This girl as a student. They became friends.
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Speaker 2: The younger girl knew that Pamela was having this affair,
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Speaker 2: but anyway, they wired this girl up. So Pamela's friend
5:02
Speaker 2: quote unquote friend, I mean really she was younger, wired
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Speaker 2: her up, had her go in and talk to Pamela.
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Speaker 2: And the tape was gritty, it was hard to really
5:12
Speaker 2: hear what was being said. But a transcript, so a
5:16
Speaker 2: transcript was written by literally just somebody that worked, I
5:19
Speaker 2: guess for the courts. So the jury was able to
5:23
Speaker 2: read the transcript and they could hear the tape, but
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Speaker 2: it wasn't really clear. So it's being argued now that
5:32
Speaker 2: that transcript was not accurate and it was just so
5:36
Speaker 2: woman's idea of what she was hearing at the time,
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Speaker 2: and it was all very muffled. So that's part of
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Speaker 2: what they're arguing in terms of the evidence.
5:45
Speaker 1: But this is like this woman, I she is a
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Speaker 1: six six human being. And in the in the movie
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Speaker 1: I watched, there's a Helen Hunt movie called Murder and
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Speaker 1: New Hampshire. The Pamela Smart Story came out in ninety one,
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Speaker 1: and it just they present this woman as she it's
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Speaker 1: like she has arrested development, like she won't become an adult.
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Speaker 1: She wants to remain a teenager in this kind of
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Speaker 1: like wild child, and she just manipulates this young boy.
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Speaker 1: I mean, fifteen is so young.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, they kept going back and forth eating. The documentary
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Speaker 2: was like from fifteen to sixty. Not that it matters
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Speaker 2: still baby, but yeah, they didn't. That's not how it
6:32
Speaker 2: was really portrayed in the documentary.
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Speaker 3: Oh it isn't, no, not really.
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Speaker 2: It's sort of So she claims that the husband, the
6:41
Speaker 2: poor guy that was murdered, she found out that or
6:44
Speaker 2: he admitted to her that he had had this affair.
6:46
Speaker 2: So she was lonely. She took these kids, there were
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Speaker 2: four of them. They were doing the project together. She
6:52
Speaker 2: was in charge of this project self esteem or something
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Speaker 2: I don't know, act high school and so she was
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Speaker 2: like just like a tour and she started working with
7:03
Speaker 2: these kids and it Yes, obviously she was twenty two
7:09
Speaker 2: who and she had sex with a fifteen sixteen year old,
7:11
Speaker 2: so clearly she.
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Speaker 3: Had big, big problems.
7:15
Speaker 2: Yes, they didn't talk about like Peter Pan syndrome as much,
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Speaker 2: just that you know, she describes it so differently obviously
7:22
Speaker 2: than the boys did.
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Speaker 3: But they went back to.
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Speaker 2: Her house one day and they watched nine and a
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Speaker 2: half weeks and she Oh my god, so she was
7:33
Speaker 2: definitely it sounds like she completely seduced him. But then
7:36
Speaker 2: depending upon who you asked, he was madly in love
7:38
Speaker 2: with her. She wanted to stop it. She loved her husband.
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Speaker 1: So they don't even cover They don't even mention that
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Speaker 1: he had an affair in this In the movie, the
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Speaker 1: narrative that I watched, it is one hundred percent like
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Speaker 1: he is this cool kind of like metal head guy
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Speaker 1: and she is super into that and they're great couple.
8:01
Speaker 1: And then he cuts his hair and gets a job
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Speaker 1: as an insurance agent and she's like, oh, I don't
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Speaker 1: love you anymore. And she says that he abuses her,
8:12
Speaker 1: but he really doesn't abuse her, and she like it's
8:16
Speaker 1: so heavy handed in this movie that she is just
8:20
Speaker 1: like diabolical, Like there's so much making out in this movie,
8:23
Speaker 1: Jen like, making out is just excessive, and I do know.
8:28
Speaker 1: I remember I was a teenager. There is a lot
8:31
Speaker 1: of making out, but I was like stunned at how
8:34
Speaker 1: much there is in this movie. And then she's just like, well,
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Speaker 1: you have to kill him, Like do you know anybody
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Speaker 1: like making okay? Do you know anybody that would murder him.
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Speaker 3: Did it feel very Hollywood.
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Speaker 1: A little bit? Yes, But because then the boys after,
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Speaker 1: when they're talking about it, they're like, well, let's get
8:53
Speaker 1: a pizza first while we're waiting, because we're by the
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Speaker 1: pizza place, you know, before they're going to murder this man.
9:00
Speaker 1: It's a little bit strange.
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Speaker 2: She claimed that he was losing his mind because she
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Speaker 2: wanted to end it, and that's why he did it.
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Speaker 2: He claimed that she didn't want to get a divorce
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Speaker 2: because she would lose everything she would lose, and also
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Speaker 2: because he was an insurance he had this big life
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Speaker 2: insurance policy. They bribed the other boys saying that they
9:25
Speaker 2: would give them I don't know, five hundred bucks to
9:27
Speaker 2: be in on it.
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Speaker 1: That's basically what they say in this movie too. It's
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Speaker 1: like it's a minimum amount of money.
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Speaker 3: Yes, And she claims that it was it came completely
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Speaker 3: from him.
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Speaker 2: It was his idea. And then there was a friend
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Speaker 2: who was involved, this girl that I mentioned and who
9:45
Speaker 2: wore the wire, and she was really scared of being
9:50
Speaker 2: implicated because if I remember correctly, she told them where
9:55
Speaker 2: to find a gun, and so the police were kind
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Speaker 2: of threatening her and the the defense was like, first
10:01
Speaker 2: of all, these boys were in a cell together, so
10:03
Speaker 2: they could have been plotting out their story. But whatever reason,
10:06
Speaker 2: I don't, you know, they said it was ridiculous. They
10:08
Speaker 2: were held in a cell together for a while, and
10:12
Speaker 2: this girl wanted to get off in terms of being
10:14
Speaker 2: an accessory, and so you know, a lot of it
10:17
Speaker 2: is about that.
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Speaker 1: So she this girl, she is very much a character
10:22
Speaker 1: in the movie as well. Yes, And it's again bizarre
10:26
Speaker 1: because in the movie, Pamela Smart has these conversations in
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Speaker 1: front of this girl, you know, so much to the
10:33
Speaker 1: girl's like, well, wait, you guys aren't really are you
10:35
Speaker 1: going to really kill them? You know, like, yeah, well,
10:37
Speaker 1: well somebody's got to kill him. Like it's very.
10:40
Speaker 2: Yes, in the documentary that they said it, but she
10:43
Speaker 2: didn't believe it something to that effect.
10:45
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, and I.
10:47
Speaker 2: Think she got time too. I don't quote me on it,
10:50
Speaker 2: but I'm pretty sure. But according to the defense, this
10:56
Speaker 2: girl was making a deal and the boys had had
11:01
Speaker 2: corroborated their story and they went out there. Note but
11:05
Speaker 2: it's another case, like we were talking before we started
11:09
Speaker 2: the pot about Scott Peterson aside, you guys, but there's
11:13
Speaker 2: all this new evidence that maybe he's not guilty, and
11:18
Speaker 2: you know, all of it, All of this sort of
11:21
Speaker 2: came to light recently because she's been in jail, and
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Speaker 2: she is in jail forever, like basically she's never getting out.
11:29
Speaker 1: I do think, but all like I feel like that
11:32
Speaker 1: these are all like technicality things, but I do think
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Speaker 1: that it is of note that she didn't pull the trigger.
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Speaker 1: I am she is very culpable and guilty.
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Speaker 2: But the fact that the guy who pulled the trigger
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Speaker 2: is out, that they're out, Yes, I know, I don't
11:49
Speaker 2: get that right, Yeah, I mean I brought up the
11:52
Speaker 2: Scott Peterson thing because everybody was so sure. I watched
11:56
Speaker 2: the documentary and all of a sudden I wasn't. But also,
11:58
Speaker 2: it's not just about the guilt, if it's guilt or innocence.
12:01
Speaker 2: It was about they fight, did they get a fair trial?
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Speaker 1: This is what I mean. Like I'm simplifying, right and saying, oh,
12:06
Speaker 1: this is a technicality, but this is like our legal system.
12:10
Speaker 1: It is. But I don't but Scott Peterson, I mean,
12:14
Speaker 1: you know, I told you when I talked to Mark Arragos,
12:17
Speaker 1: I also felt like, well, wait a second, is he
12:20
Speaker 1: not guilty? But then you watch anything about this man,
12:23
Speaker 1: and you're like, this is a stick human being.
12:27
Speaker 2: I felt the same way. I felt the same way.
12:30
Speaker 2: But that's why you have to watch this documentary about him.
12:33
Speaker 3: Sorry, guys, we.
12:35
Speaker 1: Can't get away from Scott Peterson. I can't.
12:37
Speaker 2: I've been He's been haunting me. Yes, So Pamela's smart
12:41
Speaker 2: haunting as well.
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Speaker 1: They really present it in this movie like she is
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Speaker 1: the abuser in a sense, like she is as opposed to,
12:52
Speaker 1: you know, the reverse, Like certainly her husband doesn't really
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Speaker 1: beat her. Is there any mention of that in none
12:58
Speaker 1: the doc So that not right?
13:00
Speaker 2: Like him one night he came home. I think it
13:03
Speaker 2: was like a dalliance. It was one night and that's it.
13:07
Speaker 2: Otherwise he was a great guy. They had a great marriage,
13:10
Speaker 2: and she was planning on spending happily ever after with her.
13:13
Speaker 3: But listen, truth be told.
13:15
Speaker 2: Wow, they didn't really talk about this, But the truth is,
13:18
Speaker 2: you know, right now, it's twenty twenty six. He was
13:20
Speaker 2: fifteen or sixteen, she was twenty two. That's statutory rate.
13:24
Speaker 3: So there's a whole other layer of it, right yep.
13:27
Speaker 2: So that she would have been and I don't know
13:29
Speaker 2: if any of the charges had to do with that.
13:32
Speaker 1: Right, I know I didn't. I haven't heard anything of that,
13:36
Speaker 1: although it does say of other crimes, so maybe that
13:39
Speaker 1: is a part of it, the statutory rate. And in
13:42
Speaker 1: the movie, the boy Billy Flynn, who just for the record,
13:48
Speaker 1: very handsome young man, but has a mullet like I
13:52
Speaker 1: have never seen, Like this thing has got its own
13:57
Speaker 1: you know, Instagram feed, like it really is. But he
14:03
Speaker 1: he shows great remorse on the stand.
14:06
Speaker 3: Yes he did.
14:07
Speaker 2: In the documentary they showed that, and she didn't. And
14:10
Speaker 2: they showed her at one point walking in to the
14:13
Speaker 2: courthouse and they said her eyes were dead and like
14:17
Speaker 2: a black widow. And then but one of her friends,
14:20
Speaker 2: not the friend that testified, she's like, I feel like
14:23
Speaker 2: that's so judgmental, Like all she was doing was walking in.
14:26
Speaker 3: Yes she was glazed over.
14:28
Speaker 2: But the media it was the first time that you know,
14:31
Speaker 2: the press could actually be in a courtroom courtroom yet, right,
14:35
Speaker 2: first time I guess ever in our country, and so
14:40
Speaker 2: there was so much judgment picking apart everything. And she
14:43
Speaker 2: was walking in and they show her walking in and
14:44
Speaker 2: she definitely looks like stony eyed, and but that was
14:49
Speaker 2: part of the problem, is like they didn't see and
14:51
Speaker 2: then she got on the stand, and they also didn't
14:53
Speaker 2: see the remorse, and Billy was hysterical.
14:58
Speaker 1: They do show in the movie also, so she like
15:02
Speaker 1: right after they discover his body and the police are
15:06
Speaker 1: there and the investigators at their home and she's with
15:09
Speaker 1: his her husband's parents, and she is there pretty dead eyed,
15:14
Speaker 1: and then just says, can somebody get the dog? Like,
15:17
Speaker 1: where's the cause? Somebody get the dog? And then also
15:19
Speaker 1: will you call my mom? Like this very but again
15:22
Speaker 1: it's like this thing of judging from the outside, right,
15:26
Speaker 1: I don't know, I've never been in that situation. How
15:28
Speaker 1: would I respond? I don't know, but I feel like
15:33
Speaker 1: you'd have some kind of, you know, response, some kind
15:38
Speaker 1: of emotional response.
15:40
Speaker 3: You know.
15:40
Speaker 2: It's funny watching a movie as opposed to a documentary.
15:44
Speaker 2: This documentary for me, not the story is certainly fascinating,
15:49
Speaker 2: but the documentary itself, I guess the filming of it
15:51
Speaker 2: was I don't know what, sort of flat compared to
15:54
Speaker 2: other ones that I've watched.
15:56
Speaker 1: And this is an older one, right from twenty eighteen
15:59
Speaker 1: or something.
15:59
Speaker 2: Yes, And they had a lot of actors sort of
16:02
Speaker 2: like it was just they weren't actors.
16:04
Speaker 1: But they were reenactments.
16:07
Speaker 3: Yes, reenactment, thank you.
16:09
Speaker 2: And so like the documentaries that I've watched, two crime
16:13
Speaker 2: documentaries are normally so you know, you're just on edge.
16:17
Speaker 3: This was a little flat.
16:18
Speaker 1: I feel like that was a tactic, that was a
16:20
Speaker 1: device that was used years ago in documentaries. I feel
16:24
Speaker 1: like they used to do that a lot more, the
16:26
Speaker 1: reenactment thing, and I think they.
16:28
Speaker 2: Don't need to probably there's so much footage of the
16:31
Speaker 2: actual crime. But it's interesting because so the film comes
16:36
Speaker 2: out and I think probably most times it's probably almost
16:41
Speaker 2: as scary, if not scarier than the documentary because it's Hollywood, right, yeah,
16:46
Speaker 2: and it's you're trying to captivate your audience with this,
16:49
Speaker 2: you know, horrible real life thing that happened.
16:52
Speaker 1: And trying to tell a complete story with an archer
16:55
Speaker 1: in reality, you don't know that's not always the case, right,
16:59
Speaker 1: so they really try to kind of tell a complete
17:01
Speaker 1: story with the beginning, middle, and end and wrap it
17:04
Speaker 1: up in some way. And yes, that's not always the
17:07
Speaker 1: reality of.
17:08
Speaker 2: The situation, right, And I just I wonder with things
17:11
Speaker 2: like that, like even with Scott Peterson, sorry there's that name.
17:14
Speaker 3: Again, but you can't get away. So I'm smart, but like.
17:17
Speaker 2: Now there are these all these movies out right, so
17:20
Speaker 2: that has to turn not just documentaries, but the movies
17:24
Speaker 2: themselves can affect public opinion. Oh yeah, right, so now
17:28
Speaker 2: when these people are looking for a new trial and
17:31
Speaker 2: public opinion is so can be so adamant that this
17:36
Speaker 2: person is guilty? Maybe maybe I don't know, I'm just
17:40
Speaker 2: you know, sort of feeling like that could affect.
17:44
Speaker 1: Oh, I definitely think so. And it becomes in sort
17:47
Speaker 1: of the zeitgeist of the wrongfully accused and getting a
17:51
Speaker 1: new trial and evidence, you know, DNA now being a
17:54
Speaker 1: thing where it wasn't back in the day, so sort
17:56
Speaker 1: of utilizing any of the present day way that we
18:03
Speaker 1: look at things, right, I think it definitely has an
18:05
Speaker 1: impact for sure.
18:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, and all those people that came after me on
18:09
Speaker 2: social media and I said, now that I've watched documentary,
18:12
Speaker 2: I actually think he's innocent.
18:14
Speaker 1: And like, how did they did? People go nuts?
18:16
Speaker 2: A lot of people were there, you know, we were
18:18
Speaker 2: there when it happened. I watched it in real time.
18:21
Speaker 2: But a lot of those movies, you know, I do
18:24
Speaker 2: think that they have there, they have an effect.
18:41
Speaker 1: This movie. It's a heavy hand of there is no
18:47
Speaker 1: doubt that she that Pamela Smart was just you know, uh,
18:52
Speaker 1: certainly not mentally sound. There is has to be. I
18:56
Speaker 1: don't know what her diagnosis would be, but I don't
18:58
Speaker 1: think you can do these things and be mentally stable. Agreed,
19:03
Speaker 1: but she certainly just they play her as she's presented
19:08
Speaker 1: as just very selfish, very self centered and kind of like,
19:14
Speaker 1: you know, arrested development. She just wants she doesn't want
19:17
Speaker 1: to grow up. She wants to go back to that,
19:21
Speaker 1: you know, her heavy metal posters hanging on her wall
19:26
Speaker 1: and making out, you know, while your parents are away,
19:29
Speaker 1: and it's like bizarre.
19:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, because it was in the documentary.
19:33
Speaker 2: She was very very smart, great grades, really went to
19:38
Speaker 2: what is it Florida State in Tallahassee, very diligent about schoolwork.
19:43
Speaker 3: And Jay decided met him I guess there.
19:47
Speaker 2: No, she met him at a party when she came
19:49
Speaker 2: home for whatever break and they stayed together and they
19:53
Speaker 2: both decided to move home after college. And he cut
19:56
Speaker 2: his mullet and he became an insurance sales.
19:59
Speaker 1: Oh he did really Okay, Yeah, because.
20:00
Speaker 2: It's and she got a job in the high school,
20:03
Speaker 2: but that was not the focus of it. I mean, obviously,
20:07
Speaker 2: watch the documentary. Clearly there's a shit ton wrong with
20:10
Speaker 2: this woman. She's yes, mental case. You know, she's sleeping
20:14
Speaker 2: with a fifteen year old and but no, they didn't
20:17
Speaker 2: talk about a lot of that, a lot of the
20:18
Speaker 2: arrested development, or that she's wowing to be a child.
20:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, they really make it look like, you know, she's
20:23
Speaker 1: making out in the backseat of the car when the
20:27
Speaker 1: friend is driving, the car is moving. It's literally like
20:30
Speaker 1: she is wanting to be you know, a fifteen year
20:35
Speaker 1: old or fourteen year old. It's very strange. It's like
20:39
Speaker 1: really disturbing in that way. And they make it seem
20:43
Speaker 1: like it is a single focus and it kind of
20:45
Speaker 1: comes out of nowhere, but really just about not like
20:51
Speaker 1: he's boring, This husband is boring and I want to
20:55
Speaker 1: be with this but like they really make it seem
20:58
Speaker 1: like she is obsessed with this kid. But then it
21:03
Speaker 1: does turn into she's just manipulating him. So it's like
21:07
Speaker 1: but they they really she is the villain?
21:10
Speaker 3: Is this when did this come out?
21:11
Speaker 1: I want to watch nineteen ninety one? Okay, and it's
21:14
Speaker 1: Helen Hunt. I mean Helen Hunt is like young, she's
21:17
Speaker 1: super cute, so.
21:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, she actually played her young.
21:21
Speaker 2: She didn't play interesting because they had in the documentary
21:25
Speaker 2: they have her in jail, like we hear from her.
21:27
Speaker 3: Oh really, Oh yeah, she's commenting on the whole thing.
21:30
Speaker 1: Oh oh my gosh, I gotta watch this.
21:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeahah, she's commenting on it. She has a
21:35
Speaker 2: whole thing at the end that you know, none of
21:37
Speaker 2: it was fair and the reasons why so.
21:40
Speaker 1: Do you think it was stilted in her favor or
21:44
Speaker 1: is it unbiased.
21:45
Speaker 2: I didn't leave it feeling sure that she certainly I
21:51
Speaker 2: didn't feel sure that she's innocent, and I am not.
21:54
Speaker 3: I'm not sure that she's completely guilty.
21:57
Speaker 2: The thing that the part of it that really least
22:00
Speaker 2: struck me the most is that the kid that pulled
22:03
Speaker 2: the trigger is out of jail and she is in
22:07
Speaker 2: jail like they like she said that her release date
22:10
Speaker 2: is the ninth of the ninetieth month of the of
22:17
Speaker 2: the year nineteen million, ninety like something crazy, like she's
22:22
Speaker 2: not getting out, but there is this movement, I guess
22:25
Speaker 2: now to try to get an appeal, so she's not
22:29
Speaker 2: getting out. She didn't pull the trigger, and the way
22:32
Speaker 2: the kid did it, I'm sure they showed this in
22:34
Speaker 2: the movie.
22:35
Speaker 3: Literally they point blank at the back of his head,
22:39
Speaker 3: a kid. The kid was fifteenth point blank.
22:42
Speaker 2: They came into the house, they destroyed the house.
22:46
Speaker 3: He wasn't even home. He got home.
22:48
Speaker 2: They tackled him and he looked up and he said,
22:51
Speaker 2: God forgive me. Put the gun to the back of
22:54
Speaker 2: his head and shot him dead. And he's out of jail.
22:57
Speaker 1: They do he in this movie. He does do that.
23:01
Speaker 1: He does he understand. He tells them that he said
23:03
Speaker 1: God forgive me and he shot him. I mean, so
23:07
Speaker 1: this is like a recurring thing though, of women being
23:10
Speaker 1: I was just talking about this when I was interviewing
23:14
Speaker 1: who were we talking about? Where the wh when a
23:18
Speaker 1: woman kills a man. You know, when a man kills
23:21
Speaker 1: a woman, his wife, predominantly, the average time they serve
23:27
Speaker 1: is something like two to eight years or something like that,
23:32
Speaker 1: and a woman it's like twenty five, you know what
23:34
Speaker 1: I mean. It's like it's double at least double the amount,
23:38
Speaker 1: which I don't I don't understand that either, So yes,
23:43
Speaker 1: it really yes. So in talking with David Lasher about
23:46
Speaker 1: the Donna Yaklich case where her she pays these young
23:51
Speaker 1: boys to kill her husband because the husband is legitimately
23:56
Speaker 1: abusing her. He is raping her and physically hurting her,
24:01
Speaker 1: and it's implied, and they're pretty sure that he murdered
24:05
Speaker 1: his previous wife. So she really was in a state
24:09
Speaker 1: of fear for her life, right, and she also like
24:14
Speaker 1: life in prison a million times over. And the ones
24:19
Speaker 1: that actually did it were released later.
24:23
Speaker 3: I mean she didn't even do it, she hired people
24:25
Speaker 3: to do it.
24:26
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, I mean that's the ship that always blows
24:29
Speaker 2: my mind.
24:30
Speaker 3: I mean, that's going back to like the Menendez brothers.
24:33
Speaker 3: I don't feel about them.
24:36
Speaker 1: You know, I have a very I feel like just
24:40
Speaker 1: from what I see and have read and have watched,
24:44
Speaker 1: I have compassion for them. I think those boys were abused.
24:48
Speaker 1: I do not. I think it's unforgivable that you murder anyone,
24:54
Speaker 1: and in such a despicably violent.
24:58
Speaker 4: Way.
24:59
Speaker 1: I just I don't think that is okay in any way,
25:01
Speaker 1: shape or form or something. I do think that those
25:04
Speaker 1: boys were abused. And when you don't, nobody knows what
25:08
Speaker 1: that feels like unless you are in it, and if
25:11
Speaker 1: you are feel like there is no way out, there
25:14
Speaker 1: is simply no way to continue with your like you
25:18
Speaker 1: will forever be under this man's thumb and forever be
25:22
Speaker 1: in this you know situation.
25:25
Speaker 2: I yeah, there's got to be something that happens where
25:28
Speaker 2: your brain just clicks and you're and all of a
25:32
Speaker 2: sudden you're doing something. You know, something has changed in
25:35
Speaker 2: your brain chemistry from so many years of abuse. Who's
25:38
Speaker 2: the woman that cut off our husband's penis?
25:40
Speaker 1: What was Yes, Loraina Bobbitta Bobbit and you know back
25:45
Speaker 1: in the day when that happened, I remember, and it's
25:48
Speaker 1: all made like a joke, like this woman's crazy and
25:52
Speaker 1: it's about you know, And then as an adult, I say,
25:58
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this like what she must have been
26:01
Speaker 1: driven to, right, Yes, like repeatedly abused, and then it
26:07
Speaker 1: makes complete sense. There's definitely a documentary for you to
26:12
Speaker 1: watch on that one. We got to find out what's
26:13
Speaker 1: going on with her.
26:14
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, so.
26:30
Speaker 1: We don't know what is going to happen right now
26:33
Speaker 1: with Pamela Smart, whether or not she's getting a new trial.
26:36
Speaker 2: Right.
26:36
Speaker 1: They haven't said this is all just happening right now, right, So.
26:41
Speaker 2: There was no part of the movie that was like
26:43
Speaker 2: that was about defending her. It was just all about
26:47
Speaker 2: and the boy that pulled the trigger. They were was
26:49
Speaker 2: did that feel like they were almost defending him?
26:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, they really presented her like a manipulative abuser, like
26:58
Speaker 1: there was nothing in my That was my feeling about it.
27:03
Speaker 1: My response to it that she unequivocally, like just point
27:08
Speaker 1: blank makes out with him and then is like, you know,
27:11
Speaker 1: we're gonna have to kill him, and you're like what.
27:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, that's not how it went down at all
27:17
Speaker 2: in the documentary. But it doesn't really matter. I mean again,
27:21
Speaker 2: fifteen twenty two, right.
27:23
Speaker 1: So where it stands right now with Pamela Smart is
27:26
Speaker 1: she filed a habeas corpus petition seeking to overturn her conviction.
27:31
Speaker 1: So the judge said, so this this hearing was on Monday,
27:35
Speaker 1: July twentieth, and the judge said he expects to rule
27:38
Speaker 1: within thirty to sixty days.
27:40
Speaker 2: My guess is she doesn't have a shot in hell.
27:43
Speaker 2: But I could be wrong.
27:44
Speaker 1: I agree with you, that's my guess also.
27:48
Speaker 2: But I am very, very interested in what happened me too,
27:52
Speaker 2: because I wonder if they will go to the boys,
27:56
Speaker 2: like will the boys have to testify again or say something,
28:00
Speaker 2: you know, like it just they're probably basing it primarily
28:05
Speaker 2: around this transcript where her friend was wiretapped and they
28:10
Speaker 2: let some court reporter, I think it was a court
28:12
Speaker 2: reporter just write out what had happened in the Jerry
28:14
Speaker 2: got to read it, and meanwhile it was negligible, like
28:19
Speaker 2: it was this exactly what was being said on the tape.
28:23
Speaker 1: This is just like the Murdoch case as well, like
28:26
Speaker 1: the one court report, not court reporter, the court stenographer. Yeah,
28:32
Speaker 1: did something a little bit questionable, and now they're saying
28:35
Speaker 1: like it was all of the jurors were misled. You know,
28:39
Speaker 1: it's ridiculous.
28:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah it is, But except that, what if that's true?
28:46
Speaker 2: And what if like what if there's a small I
28:48
Speaker 2: know it's I'm with you, it's like probably not almost
28:54
Speaker 2: ninety nine percent not, but what if that's a scary part?
28:57
Speaker 3: You know.
28:58
Speaker 1: I think I always feel in this goes back to
29:01
Speaker 1: yet again Scott Peterson.
29:02
Speaker 4: But.
29:04
Speaker 1: I guess it's my bias where I feel like if
29:08
Speaker 1: a person doesn't just have a complete breakdown like I
29:13
Speaker 1: did not do this, you know, like who could ever
29:17
Speaker 1: think I would do something like this? If they don't
29:20
Speaker 1: plead for themselves in that way, I don't believe them,
29:23
Speaker 1: Like I don't get why why not?
29:25
Speaker 4: No?
29:25
Speaker 2: I hear you, and a lot of it that is
29:28
Speaker 2: the bias, right, Like, I'm sure the jurors look at that,
29:31
Speaker 2: but I wonder why the lawyers don't say, go out
29:33
Speaker 2: there and scream and cry and carry on and beg.
29:37
Speaker 3: There's got to be a.
29:38
Speaker 2: Reason for that too, yep, I mean you, Yeah, like
29:40
Speaker 2: we are watching I was watching Billy in the documentary
29:44
Speaker 2: being hysterical and she was stone cold right right, So yeah,
29:52
Speaker 2: I'm with you, But I wonder if it is effective,
29:56
Speaker 2: because you would think that then in that case, wouldn't
29:59
Speaker 2: you know, mo, accused men and women on trial, wouldn't
30:04
Speaker 2: they be in hysterics?
30:05
Speaker 3: And you don't see that that often, do you?
30:06
Speaker 2: No?
30:07
Speaker 1: Not really?
30:08
Speaker 3: Well, I can guarantee you if it's me, I will
30:10
Speaker 3: be me too. Yeah. I won't be holding it together.
30:14
Speaker 1: Neither will I. I will be bawling and yelling and
30:19
Speaker 1: crying and yes.
30:21
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, but I don't see that in the cards
30:23
Speaker 2: for either one of us, thankfully, yeah, thankfully hopefully not.
30:27
Speaker 1: Yes.
30:29
Speaker 3: All right, so you guys, thank.
30:32
Speaker 1: You for joining us, Thanks for joining us.
30:35
Speaker 3: Another episode of Killer Thriller. My favorite ones are with
30:38
Speaker 3: a Lisa Donovan.
30:39
Speaker 1: I know, I love these crossovers. They're super fun. I
30:43
Speaker 1: love it me too, so thanks