Latest / One Voice Many Conversations / Crushing Strongholds #046 Special Guest Larry Brant who help others in their journey back from PTSD and moral injury.

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Crushing Strongholds #046 Special Guest Larry Brant who help others in their journey back from PTSD and moral injury. · One Voice Many Conversations

0:02
SPEAKER_00: Hello, everyone.
0:03
SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to another great episode of Crushing Strongholds.
0:07
SPEAKER_00: This is a podcast where we turn pain into power, trauma into triumph, and a place where we get to expose the lives of the enemy.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: And how do we do that?
0:15
SPEAKER_00: We do that by sharing the truth and the love of Jesus Christ.
0:18
SPEAKER_00: And we also do it through testimonies, testimonies of faith, testimonies of overcoming strongholds that have just kept people in places where they don't want to be.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: I feel honestly that with God we can live up to our God-given purpose by dismantling strongholds.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: And that's what testimonies do.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: And today I have a wonderful guest with me today.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: And I can't wait to introduce him.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: And um I'm getting to know him myself, so bear with me on this.
0:43
SPEAKER_00: But um, this gentleman is a Navy chaplain, a combat veteran.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: Um he he loves to seek out um helping others in his journey.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: He helps people people with uh PTSD and moral injury, and um he was a pastor for 25 years.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: He also was a volunteer for fire and um police as a chaplain.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: And um and then he had his um the his military uh with the Navy and about to be retired.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: So I'm actually really excited to hear more about this gentleman.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna welcome in welcome him in.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: His name is Larry Brandt, and Larry Brandt, thank you so much for coming in today and joining us on Crushing Strongholds.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: It's my privilege to be here.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: So with this podcast being about strongholds, I'm sure the field that you have worked in your most of your life, you've seen a lot.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: I I can only imagine.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: Um my my question right off the top, I gotta go right to the I gotta go right there.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: How hard is it for you when when you're helping other people with PTSD and you know the moral injuries and stuff that that that combat brings on, even with fire and um um working with the police force um as a chaplain?
2:01
SPEAKER_00: How hard is it for you to separate yourself from something that's that you're you're seeing other people go through?
2:08
SPEAKER_00: Does it does it make it hard for you?
2:10
SPEAKER_00: How do you separate that in your own life, in your own world?
2:14
SPEAKER_01: Well, that that's a terrific question.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, because uh I have PTSD myself, uh, from my combat experience as well as from counseling people uh for the last uh 16 years in the military and and all of the things that has gone on there.
2:36
SPEAKER_01: Um so I have I have diagnosed PTSD from from both of those situations.
2:43
SPEAKER_01: And but one thing that I do uh it actually I didn't do the best job of separating myself until I went back to school.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: And uh the Navy uh the Navy put me through a program called CPE or Clinical Pastoral Education, and it's what you have to have in order to be able to minister in a hospital environment.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: Uh they want you to have four units of CPE and be board certified.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: So uh they have a school in both the East Coast and the West Coast uh where they they co-run the school with the VA.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: And so I went through the one that was in San Diego, and uh I'll be honest with you, I was having a situation where I was chaplain in the NICU, and we had um some very serious situations and a couple of deaths.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, and the children were all about the same age as my granddaughter, and I was I was really struggling with that.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: And I went to my uh CPE director, and uh I just I just asked her, I said, I'm I'm struggling here.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: I want to be a help to these families, but I'm so over-identifying with what's going on because these children are about the same age as my granddaughter, uh that when I look at them, that's what I'm seeing, and then I have to step out of the room, cry like an idiot, and then come back in.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: And so she taught me uh this great differentiation exercise.
4:21
SPEAKER_01: And so if this will be helpful for your folks, I'm gonna share it with you now.
4:25
SPEAKER_01: But what she encouraged me to do was to just take a quick step back, take a deep breath, and then look, okay, what is the same between me and these folks?
4:38
SPEAKER_01: What is the same in the in with what they're going through and that?
4:42
SPEAKER_01: Now, pivot and what is different.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: What is different with what these people are going on with?
4:50
SPEAKER_01: What is different in your life?
4:52
SPEAKER_01: Focus on the differences, not the similarities, so that you can continue to be objective and be of help to them because if you over-identify with them, you're not going to be any good because you're going to be caught up in your own emotions.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: And so uh that has helped me tremendously over the last few years so that I don't do exactly that.
5:16
SPEAKER_01: I don't get so caught up in what that person is experiencing.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, or if it's if I'm talking to somebody who uh has had sexual trauma, I don't get so angry at the situation that I'm no longer any good to them.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: And so that's been a huge help for me in being able to stay objective and be able to provide ministry, especially in difficult and um high trauma situations.
5:49
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you for sharing that.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry to just tackle that right on top, but I it's been a thought in my mind, and I was like, oh man, you know, I just always question.
5:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was like, how do you cut, you know, almost compartmentalize, you know, situations with one another and and and then still go function in your own life and your own reality outside of that, you know, and you know, trying to to connect but disconnect, you know, trying to keep the them balanced so it doesn't have an emotional havoc on your own life, basically.
6:21
SPEAKER_00: So with with this also of you know being crushing strongholds and it is a a place where we get to talk about testimonies of how we overcame obstacles and strongholds of our own.
6:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, what is your testimony?
6:35
SPEAKER_00: You said you you you suffer with PTSD, so I know that you have got to have a great testimony for me.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: Well, uh, I'll just kind of tell you my story coming into the Navy.
6:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh so as you mentioned, uh I was a pastor, really an associate pastor, and for 25 years, um, I did worship and whatever else the church needed at the time, whether it was youth ministry, education ministry, discipleship ministry.
7:03
SPEAKER_01: There's a little line at the end of the job description and says anything else the pastor deems necessary to be done.
7:10
SPEAKER_01: That's kind of the catch-all that uh associate pastors have at the bottom of their job descriptions.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: And so I was doing that then in my last church, which was in Lincoln, Nebraska.
7:22
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I had just come on board um and I was approached by uh some firefighters and police officers that we had in the congregation.
7:33
SPEAKER_01: And they came up to me one day after the service and they said, you know, we think that you have a great temperament and would be great as a volunteer chaplain for the city.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: Would you ever consider doing that?
7:46
SPEAKER_01: And I thought, I'm open to that.
7:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and I prayed about it and I felt like God was not closing that door.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: So I talked to the senior pastor and I asked him if he had any reservations on it.
7:59
SPEAKER_01: He thought it was a terrific idea.
8:01
SPEAKER_01: So uh I started volunteering uh for the city, and uh it was great programs called the Lincoln Chaplain Corps there in Lincoln, Nebraska.
8:12
SPEAKER_01: They've got about 25 to 30 volunteer chaplains from various faith groups.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then they you know they each take a 24-hour duty, and um they are on call for the police department, for this, uh, for the fire department.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: Um the sometimes they're asked to transport women to shelters, um and and sometimes under guard because of the the violent nature of the offenders toward those women.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: Um they they will go and especially if it's a non-attended death, uh, where they just find a body, the chaplain will come and they'll be the liaison with the families.
8:56
SPEAKER_01: Um uh so a little bit more of a comforting presence because the police officer is focusing on if there was a crime committed, uh, whereas the chaplain can be more of a comforting presence for the family and be that liaison, can ask the questions that the family has and things like that.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: And I really enjoyed that ministry, uh, you know, working with the first responders, helping these folks quite often on the worst day of their life, and trying to be a comforting presence during that.
9:27
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then over the the eight years that I was involved with that, actually rose to run the ministry for the city.
9:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then in 2007, uh my denomination had a chaplaincy training in Hawaii, and it happened to be the week my wife was off from school.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: So I went to her and I said, Honey, it's of God that we go to this training.
9:52
SPEAKER_01: And of course, she heard Hawaii and she was in, you know.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: So we went out to the training, and it was a wonderful experience.
10:02
SPEAKER_01: And um, there were only two uh law enforcement chaplains there, everyone else was military, and so that was really my first experience with any kind of military chaplain.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but as we met these these folks and their families and heard their stories, um quite honestly, God began working on me.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: And as God began calling me to military chaplaincy, like Moses at the burning bush, I kept telling God why he was wrong.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: And uh every everything I came up with, it seemed like at the very next session they knocked down.
10:42
SPEAKER_01: So at first I said, Well, God, I'm already too old.
10:46
SPEAKER_01: You know, the cutoff for military chaplaincy is 42.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm above that.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, the the just not going to happen.
10:55
SPEAKER_01: I'd go to the next session, and they're talking about these age waivers, because then at that point in time the army and the navy uh were really needing chaplains.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: They were giving age waivers, letting you come in past the cutoff point.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: And and then I thought, well, I don't have the right degree, you know, because at that point in time, uh, I had two master's degrees.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: I had a master's in church music, uh, and I had a master in ministry leadership.
11:27
SPEAKER_01: And go to the next session.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: Now understand this is 2007, and they're talking about this brand new thing, accredited online schools, that the Department of Defense was accepting into the chaplain program.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: And I thought, wow, there's two for two.
11:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then um the next thing was um, I thought I had gone on this one.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I was a pretty big fella, you know.
11:58
SPEAKER_01: At that point in time I weighed over 300 pounds, and God came back and said, There's this thing called a diet.
12:05
SPEAKER_01: Um I said, uh, okay, guys, um I will do what you want me to do.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: Uh this seems crazy to me, but I'll do it.
12:23
SPEAKER_01: Tell my wife because I'm terrified to do that.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: Uh, because here I was, you know, she was she was a sign language interpreter in the school system, she was well established, well liked, everybody loved her.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, even today, you know, I'm not surprised.
12:41
SPEAKER_01: Some folks say, Well, we tolerate you for her, you know, which I think is totally the best thing because you know, she is the best.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I said, please tell her because I really dread having this conversation with her.
12:57
SPEAKER_01: So we're going back to the room that night.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, because normally when we go to a conference together, we'll go to we'll, you know, we'll each experience what we experienced during the day.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: We'll come back at night and we'll share with one another what we felt like we learned what God was telling us.
13:15
SPEAKER_01: And so we're working, we're walking down that hallway, and that hallway just seems to get longer and longer and longer.
13:22
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then we finally get to the door, we go in, I close the door and turn around, and she puts her finger in my face and says, I think God's calling you to military chaplaincy.
13:34
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, He really did tell her.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, what a confirmation.
13:41
SPEAKER_01: Right.
13:42
SPEAKER_01: We stayed up for a long time that night talking about the changes that this would bring.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: You know, I would have to go back to school online, uh, continue working at the church.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I didn't want to give up my chaplaincy, continue volunteering there, but maybe start to take a little bit of a step back from that, just not as much into it as I did.
14:03
SPEAKER_01: And um, I'd have to lose a ton of weight.
14:07
SPEAKER_01: And so we talked about it, we prayed about it.
14:10
SPEAKER_01: And I always remember she said, if if God is calling us to do this, how can we do anything else?
14:16
SPEAKER_01: Right.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, I just remember thinking, I'm not worthy of you, I'm not worthy of you.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: And that's a wise woman right there.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: Well, I look at it this way she hasn't smothered me in my sleep yet, so I know she has got strong will, she is wise, uh, she's awesome.
14:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, but um so we we went home, we went forward for Christmas that year.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: Uh, she bought me hours with a personal trainer.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, or as I joked with friends, she paid a 22-year-old to try to kill me because it seemed that way at the beginning.
14:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I I went and took the the height weight standards, the physical standards to this young man, and I said, This is what I need to do.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: Can you help me get there?
15:00
SPEAKER_01: And man, he just went right at it.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: He designed a program that got me there.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, and in eight months, uh 18 months I lost 110 pounds.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: Tob.
15:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then uh I also uh got my master of divinity in that time because my two previous masters, some things were able to transfer in.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: Uh so in 18 months, uh I had lost 110 pounds, I had gotten another master's degree, and then I went to MEPS.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: And if you knew um that's that's where uh MEPS is where everybody goes for their entrance physical into the military.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: And it was very interesting.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, I sat down here.
15:52
SPEAKER_01: I am sitting down in my boxers next to this 17-year-old, and this this kid goes, Did you bring your 17-year-old with you?
16:01
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I am the 17-year-old.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh duck walking with them across the floor, you know, doing everything that they make you do to come into the military was very interesting.
16:13
SPEAKER_01: And so I joined the Navy at age 45.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: And then a little over a year later, found myself in Helmand Province, Afghanistan with a Marine Corps Infantry Battalion as their chaplain, um, and which was a uh a formidable experience.
16:32
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I still stay in touch with a lot of those guys.
16:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, we're very close.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's interesting.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: Our uh our commanding officer for that deployment is now the commanding general for the 2nd Marine Division at Camp Lejeur, North Carolina.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: Great man by the name of Farrell Sullivan, and I would follow that man anywhere.
16:56
SPEAKER_01: Um but uh it was an interesting experience uh being with those Marines in a very kinetic environment, um, getting shot at, um losing Marines in in a combat situation.
17:16
SPEAKER_01: Um that's where you know my combat PTSD comes from, um, especially with uh there was one day where uh some of my Marines found a weapons cache, and in the weapons cache were some documents.
17:35
SPEAKER_01: And uh our translator was reading through the documents and he turns to me and goes, Chaps, you're in here.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, What?
17:43
SPEAKER_01: What are you talking about?
17:44
SPEAKER_01: And he goes, Well, it it talks in here that if you kill the religious leader of the Marines, uh you'll demoralize them, which was wrong.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: All it does is just make them matter.
17:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, but um, and I said, Well, then you know, that's that he goes, No, you're in here.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: Below that statement was a physical description of of myself and my RP, my protector.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: And so I realized that someone had gotten close enough to me to write down a description and then put it in that and say, if you see this guy, kill it.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
18:21
SPEAKER_01: Um which you know, all sense of safety gone.
18:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:27
SPEAKER_00: In a blink, like a blink of an eye.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: Scary.
18:34
SPEAKER_01: And um, and then uh working with those guys uh was humbling, but I felt like I was right in the middle of where God wanted me to be.
18:47
SPEAKER_01: And then fast forward to the CPE program that I I went in, um, I did it during the height of COVID.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: So uh when you do the CPE, you go to school for a year and you get what they call four units of CPE, four accredited units, and then you do two residencies.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: You do a residency at the naval hospital in San Diego, and then you do a residency with the VA.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: So uh with my residency at the Naval Hospital, I worked in the NICU and I also worked in the ICU.
19:23
SPEAKER_01: Um and if you can imagine working in an ICU at the height of COVID, um we were we were losing at least one patient a day.
19:35
SPEAKER_01: And you know, dealing with the families of these patients, and uh sometimes we would lose a husband one month and the wife the next, and then dealing with the devastated families and then pivoting and working with the healthcare providers who uh were getting moral injury over this because they just felt absolutely helpless in preventing these deaths with the way this virus was just you know moving through everything, as we all remember how it happened.
20:08
SPEAKER_01: Um and and so that was I actually saw more death in that ICU than I saw in Afghanistan, and that was uh really something to see.
20:19
SPEAKER_01: And and then being terrified myself of accidentally bringing home the virus and maybe infecting my wife who had who has asthma.
20:29
SPEAKER_01: And so uh uh I was absolutely terrified of that.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: Thankfully, that didn't happen.
20:35
SPEAKER_01: We didn't catch COVID till I actually checked into the command here on the base.
20:40
SPEAKER_01: Um we checked in and uh both of us got it hard the second week.
20:46
SPEAKER_01: I didn't know my I did not know my eyeballs could hurt, but they could.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: Um and then uh uh when I went over to do my VA um residency, I was very privileged to work in a program that the San Diego VA has, which I would love to see replicated in other locations across the U.S.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: at other VAs.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: But they have a program called the Aspire Center.
21:13
SPEAKER_01: And what the Aspire Center does, it's a PTSD domiciliary.
21:17
SPEAKER_01: And so they take homeless veterans off the streets of San Diego diagnosed with PTSD.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: They house them for six months, they address their PTSD and address their moral injury, uh, help them to get clean and stay clean, and then they help them find jobs and help them find housing so that they don't go back out on the street.
21:38
SPEAKER_01: And they've got about an 85% success rate.
21:41
SPEAKER_00: That's pretty good.
21:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just amazing.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: The staff there is just well, they are just so dedicated to those residents.
21:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, they're second to none.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: And what I really loved about being the chaplain resident there was that they expected the chaplain to have an equal seat at the Table.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: When they were planning the treatment plan for each resident, uh, it was the chaplain needed to know where is that resident spiritually?
22:08
SPEAKER_01: How can we support them?
22:10
SPEAKER_01: What are ways that this can work into the treatment plan?
22:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, and that was something I had never experienced before.
22:18
SPEAKER_01: That level of responsibility, but also being having an equal voice uh as part of the interdisciplinary team has was just terrific.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: And seeing the changes in these veterans over those six months.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: And so as I left that program and then went to my command at Naval Hospital 29 Palms, I I wanted to do something about that.
22:46
SPEAKER_01: So um I took what I learned from the VA, and uh there was a program that we used called Building Spiritual Strength that was developed by a VA psychiatrist and a VA chaplain.
22:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I wanted to tweak it for active duty and offer it through our hospital at 29 Palms.
23:07
SPEAKER_01: So I got permission from the from the developers at the VA.
23:11
SPEAKER_01: They were very gracious people.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: And uh after I got my foot, my feet underneath me at the hospital, uh I scheduled a meeting with my leadership and I I did a proposal, uh, proposing to to do this eight-week course called Building Spiritual Strength, where we address PTSD and moral injury from a spiritual perspective.
23:36
SPEAKER_01: And helping um helping our active duty or retirees that work here on base, helping them to address PTSD and moral injury from a spiritual perspective, reconnecting, excuse me, reconnecting with their faith, or maybe finding a new faith, or or using, you know, whatever they use to mitigate those symptoms of PTSD and moral injury.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: And as I proposed it, it was kind of cool because the executive officer of the hospital was a clinical psychiatrist, and he got so excited about the proposal, he said, Chaps, can I do it with you?
24:16
SPEAKER_01: And I said, Absolutely, sir.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: And so we teamed up and just had a wonderful experience leading those groups over the next several years.
24:24
SPEAKER_01: And then when he left, the new director came in and I worked with him, and we saw um we saw such dividends in that program of people making um recommitments to their fee faith, uh, people making huge life changes, uh, restoration of their careers, restoration of their marriages.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: Um and because our goal was why are we waiting until these guys are homeless before we're addressing this from a spiritual perspective?
25:04
unknown: Yeah.
25:05
SPEAKER_00: I think I've heard that question asked uh often with with vets.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: Actually, exact question.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: And and my thinking was let's do this before they're out.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: You know, if we can do this before we're out, maybe we can save some careers, we can save some marriages, and potentially even save some lives.
25:27
unknown: Yeah, that sounds good.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: And uh we've had a lot of good success in doing this.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: We were the first, I think, I think we were the first active duty base to use this program, and now there's 52.
25:41
SPEAKER_01: Oh wow, good job.
25:43
SPEAKER_01: Um and we've just seen a lot of success in that and the and the stories that these folks have of of change and renewal and restoration in their lives is just amazing.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:59
SPEAKER_00: Now dealing with PTSD uh on a spiritual realm of it, you know, a lot of people that are Christians like myself, we believe in healing.
26:11
SPEAKER_00: And you know, and I think about I always think about 2 Corinthians when it talks about um or it says capture um your thoughts um of the imagination and cast them before you know before Jesus Christ to the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
26:26
SPEAKER_00: And um I think about that that in every aspect of life, whether it be military or you know, a mom losing a child, or um, you know, even elderly like myself, you know, my grandmother having dementia.
26:40
SPEAKER_00: I think about that like like her mind is gone.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: You know, how can she capture her thoughts?
26:44
SPEAKER_00: She cannot do that because of the disease she has, you know.
26:47
SPEAKER_00: And I think about it because I always think, you know, and that word to me means like you need to grab that thought before it becomes um captain of your ship.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: Like you want to take caption, you know, you want to capture it so it doesn't become the captain of your ship is how I kind of explain it.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: And um, because you're supposed to be the captain of your ship, you know, you're supposed to be following after God and you know, doing his word so that way those thoughts can't detour you.
27:10
SPEAKER_00: With PTSD, um going in at it from a spiritual um aspect instead of just like a like medically treating like through pharmaceuticals or just therapy or whatever, um is that is that does that seem like to be a an easy or is it a hard struggle to reach someone in the spiritual realm of what someone's encountered at war or with a moral injury or um I mean because it's devastating.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: I I mean I I can't I can't even imagine um seeing what you guys see, um other than what I've seen, you know, on TV for myself and um whatnot.
27:48
SPEAKER_00: I've been to Camp Lejeune, by the way.
27:50
SPEAKER_00: My daughter was born there.
27:52
SPEAKER_00: I was I was married to a Marine, so yeah, we did some traveling.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: But anyhow, I thought I'd throw that in there real quick.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: But so I've been to that same place.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: But um it's it kind of is makes you wonder when I think of PTSD, I wonder if it has the same, almost kind of like the same grant same grounds as dementia does, like that cognitive ability is shut off and you can't penetrate it.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: So how do you get through how do you get through to it spiritually is what I'm trying to get to.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to get the question out.
28:23
SPEAKER_01: Um there's a couple of different ways that we do, because especially the you know, the person with PTSD, uh they're hyper-alert, uh, sometimes hyper-focused, uh, definitely elements of paranoia.
28:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, because you, you know, for my for myself, you know, when I sit in a restaurant, I have to see the whole restaurant.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: I can't have my back to the people.
28:49
SPEAKER_01: I I have to be able to see the entire restaurant, to see the exits.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: That's just you know, a leftover.
28:57
SPEAKER_01: I that's just a pleasant gift from Afghanistan.
29:04
SPEAKER_01: But um we begin working with them.
29:07
SPEAKER_01: One the first thing we do is we try to give them a safe place to talk about what's happened with them, whether it's uh PTSD or moral injury.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: And let me just uh kind of explain.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: Uh I would say probably your audience knows a lot, sorry, about more about PTSD.
29:27
SPEAKER_01: But what I am finding is not many people in the general public um know a lot about moral injury, right?
29:38
SPEAKER_01: And so PTSD we know is fear-based, that it was trauma, something that happened to you that caused a great amount of fear, uh, that wrecked you emotionally, um, that where you you have that loss of trust, um paranoia, uh fear of harm.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: Um and moral injury is kind of like the other side of the coin, versus something that happens to you, moral injury is something that you did, uh, possibly under the direction of someone in authority over you, or it's something you chose not to do, but the result of which just goes against everything you believe in, morally, ethically, and especially spiritually.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: And it just wrecks you, it fills you with guilt, with shame, uh, even to the point of feeling that you're unlovable and unforgivable, and you just feel like your soul is just shattered.
30:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:47
SPEAKER_01: So, and quite often, uh PTSD and moral injury coexist because sometimes you know, and again, you brought an excellent example.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: This is not only in the military environment, this can be in other environments as well.
31:05
SPEAKER_01: But you may experience some type of PTSD trauma, your reaction to it goes against everything you believe in, thus creating the moral injury.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: That's that's one example.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so as we work with these folks, giving them a safe place to tell their story.
31:25
SPEAKER_01: That's that's a big step one.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, because so many of them hold it all inside uh because they're afraid to be seen as weak, or in the case of moral injury, if I tell you what I did, you will think I'm a monster.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: Um and so if uh like in the very first night of the group that we have, um we'll we'll have them, you know, watch your story that you feel comfortable telling.
32:01
SPEAKER_01: You know, we don't force them in any way, but as they begin to share, what happens is the the people in the group begin to realize I'm not the only one who feels like I feel.
32:15
SPEAKER_01: They they begin to realize they're not alone.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: And with hearing similar stories of trauma, then they feel more free to share.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, as they begin to share, uh that gets unburdened, and then uh that builds a community of trust.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: And then from there we have we'll discuss different topics, we'll also give them homework.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: Um one thing that's really helpful, both with someone with CTSD and oral injury, is uh, and on the very first night we do this, uh we we have them do what's called a two-way prayer log.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I wish I invented this, but it's you know, like most preachers, I steal what's good and then pass it on.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: Uh at least you don't take all the credit for it.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: That's a good thing.
33:13
SPEAKER_01: I I I admit that I steal it.
33:15
SPEAKER_01: Um but um we do this thing called a two-way prayer log, and you know, most people, you know, you hear a lot in mental health about journaling, you know, journal your thoughts, journal your journal your feelings, and it's very cathartic to get those out onto the written page.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, but this goes a step further.
33:35
SPEAKER_01: We have them write out a prayer um to God or whatever faith group they're in, but you know, uh I strongly suggest God.
33:46
SPEAKER_01: Um but um and then write out their their prayer to God, and then the the two-way part is now how would you imagine God answering you back?
34:00
SPEAKER_01: And then write that part out, you know, you're not speaking for God, you're not God, you're just with what you know of God, how would you believe that He would answer back?
34:14
SPEAKER_01: Uh and that's been uh monumental because of the trauma TSD and the moral injury, these individuals are very self-focused.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: My trauma, my paranoia, my sin that I committed, uh, and it's hard to get them to think out of themselves.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: But what the two-way prayer log does is it helps them begin to look at their situations and their feelings from the perspective of God.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: It gets them out of themselves, and it helps them to kind of begin to be able to develop that 10,000-foot view of how how does this mix in with everything else going on in life around them.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: And so then they begin to understand uh how how different people play into it, um, how God plays into things, his perspective on things, and it helps them to just kind of zero out and not be solely focused on themselves as much anymore.
35:24
SPEAKER_00: Right.
35:25
SPEAKER_01: That's been huge.
35:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then those are just a couple of small steps in helping them to get them to reconnect with their faith.
35:33
SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: Well, as we start to start to wrap up, I want to um talk about your book, Restoring Broken, because you are you're not only all of the above a chaplain and a volunteer uh military, but you are also an author.
35:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so um I want to talk a little bit about your your book called Restoring the Broken and Um how that helps people um just put those pieces back together because I I feel like we all go through times in our life where we do get broken, you know.
36:06
SPEAKER_00: And um an analogy I like to use, I like to use analogies behaviours.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: But analogy I like to use is it's like, you know, when um someone drops a plate on the ground and you try to piece it all back together, it's never gonna be the same.
36:17
SPEAKER_00: It's never gonna be the same.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: And I can only imagine with PTSD, um, even and especially with moral injury, that um um what that what that probably looks like, you know, in that brokenness.
36:29
SPEAKER_00: And I think about it because we're not ever gonna be re restored to that fullness until God restores us in heaven when we have our perfect bodies, you know.
36:38
SPEAKER_00: And I try to let when I when I do my coaching, I explain to people we want that fullness now.
36:43
SPEAKER_00: We'll we will never have the full fullness, but we we can have Christ, you know, within us, which fills us until we get our our new our new bodies in heaven when we get to heaven.
36:53
SPEAKER_00: Um and I'm excited for that, Dave, because I'm ready for a new body.
36:56
SPEAKER_00: So bring it on, Laura, bring it on.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: No, it's a little creaky.
37:01
SPEAKER_01: Mine's a little creaky itself.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's making some awkward noise.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what's going on.
37:05
SPEAKER_00: But so yeah, if you want to talk about your book a little bit as we go into closing, I'd love for you to share about it.
37:12
SPEAKER_01: Uh so when I was doing my uh doctoral project for the my doctor of ministry, as I've been in the military and talking with pastors from across the country, uh, many times I would say, you know, what's PTSD?
37:28
SPEAKER_01: And they would give me a fairly decent answer.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: And then I would say, Okay, can you tell me what moral injury is?
37:35
SPEAKER_01: And they would just look at me like a deer in headlights.
37:39
SPEAKER_01: But then when I gave an explanation of it, like I did earlier, every single time the pastor would go, Oh, that explains it.
37:50
SPEAKER_01: Right, and and they would immediately someone in their congregation would immediately come to mind.
37:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and we would then have a discussion on that and the approaches of moral injury versus PTSD.
38:04
SPEAKER_01: And so as I was doing that for my doctoral project, I thought, why don't I develop a training for pastors and civilian chaplains, educating them on moral injury and then educating them on how to develop a pastoral response to it?
38:22
SPEAKER_01: And that project went really well.
38:25
SPEAKER_01: And as I was submitting that dissertation uh for review and approval, uh, my editor, again, my wife, the source of almost all wisdom in my life, uh outside of God, of course.
38:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, and and and actually my dissertation team as well, my dissertation committee actually said, you know, we really think you need to put this into a book.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: And uh, so I was I was sharing my dissertation with a friend of mine in the Tulsa uh Muscogee, Oklahoma VA.
39:03
SPEAKER_01: Oklahoma, who is an author himself, who is an author himself, fellow by the name of Dr.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: Carter Check.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: And he goes, I need to introduce you to my publisher.
39:11
SPEAKER_01: So he did introduce me to his publisher, and I began working with them.
39:16
SPEAKER_01: And uh my editor there really helped me to just kind of take all of the academic language out of that dissertation, and really helped me to just put it in in plain English, uh, to explain what moral injury is, why the church should care about it.
39:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:37
SPEAKER_01: What are some concrete things that uh pastors, ministry leaders, the church, just people can do to come alongside people broken with PTSD and moral injury and and help them in that restoration process?
39:57
SPEAKER_00: Right.
39:58
SPEAKER_00: I I that that's perfectly said.
40:00
SPEAKER_01: That's my book.
40:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's perfectly said.
40:03
SPEAKER_00: I I I I know a lot about moral injury, I understand it just because um, you know, like I said, I would my I was married into the military, but um we used to talk about stuff like that because I used to ask them questions, you know, the military, all the guys would come over and I would I'd be the one doing the high and tights and giving all the boys haircuts at my house because it was they would come for free and they'd line up and I'd be like, oh my goodness, there'd be hair everywhere.
40:27
SPEAKER_00: But um it wasn't too bad.
40:28
SPEAKER_00: It was fun.
40:29
SPEAKER_00: We had a lot of conversations, and my ex-husman was in the Philippines, and he was actually um one of the last people on the base when they closed it down, that that base.
40:37
SPEAKER_00: But um, they you know, he talked about what he could, and you know, I always wondered, I always wondered if there's stuff he couldn't really talk about and um whatnot, and you know, the things that you know he was told to do, had to do, forced to do, whatever, um, along the moral injury lines.
40:52
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, just in I think it it it heightens shame on a person.
40:57
SPEAKER_00: It makes you feel like um you have to be ashamed of yourself, even though you're told to do it, even though you're put in a position um where you have to make the decision to go against your own, you know, your own integrity, your own morals, your own values, what you would not normally do, you know.
41:11
SPEAKER_00: And and I think that it's I love that you talk about it.
41:14
SPEAKER_00: I really do.
41:15
SPEAKER_00: And I agree, I do think it should be talked about in the church because I think that when we when we talk about moral injury, I don't think about it as just a war motive.
41:28
SPEAKER_00: We have thoughts of moral injury every day.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: Look at the school shootings, look at the police brutality, look at look at everything in the world right now is somebody conflicting something on someone else.
41:40
SPEAKER_00: And where's our more morality in all that?
41:42
SPEAKER_00: Where is it?
41:43
SPEAKER_00: So I love, I really love that you talk about it and that you bring it that to the table.
41:48
SPEAKER_00: You're not just talking about what happened to me, you know, the post the PTSD.
41:52
SPEAKER_00: And yes, that yeah, and not that that's not dramatic and that's not um something that you know people encounter.
42:00
SPEAKER_00: They they do.
42:01
SPEAKER_00: Um and I understand how that has a huge factor in some of it, but that moral, um, the moral injury, as we think about conflicting wounds onto someone else or any of that, w it's not talked about.
42:15
SPEAKER_00: It's talked about after it's done.
42:17
SPEAKER_00: It's talked about after the fact, it but it's never addressed ahead of time so that it can be, you know, reduced or eliminated.
42:23
SPEAKER_00: Now we know in war there's there's no way around it pretty much for for certain you know wars that we're stepping into.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: It's just what what's gonna happen.
42:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, Armageddon's coming.
42:33
SPEAKER_00: I can only imagine what that's gonna look like.
42:35
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm like, oh my goodness, you know, uh um, you know, World War III, it's right around the corner.
42:39
SPEAKER_00: All these things are, you know, we think about it, but um, you know, the good versus the evil and stuff like that.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: But going to bed at night and trying to get over that shame that's on you and hold holding you from having to do something that you know you know is morally wrong, I can't I can't even imagine it.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: I can't imagine how hard that would be to get through.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: And and and to talk to someone about God in it, like, you know, yes, you were just told to to kill this, you know, kill these people for for for the reason of, you know, the sake of war, but how do you get past that?
43:14
SPEAKER_00: How do you get that out of your head?
43:15
SPEAKER_00: How do you not feel ashamed?
43:17
SPEAKER_00: And I love that you what I like about what you're talking about in your group is you guys take God outside of the box.
43:25
SPEAKER_00: And I love that.
43:26
SPEAKER_00: I it drives me crazy when everybody puts God inside a little box and they think that's where he operates because he's so much bigger, he's so much, you know, he's so much more merciful than we give him credit for.
43:37
SPEAKER_00: He he gives us so much more, even in our promises.
43:40
SPEAKER_00: He I I tell people you God doesn't always hand you out the promises of the Bible because you're not ready to handle the promises of the Bible.
43:47
SPEAKER_00: You have to be ready.
43:48
SPEAKER_00: You have to, you know, we're supposed to be ready in and out of season.
43:51
SPEAKER_00: And if we're not, he can't just hand you a promise if you don't know what to do with it.
43:54
SPEAKER_00: He wants to bless us, you know, he wants to heal us, he wants to take us to that next level, to where we're we are.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: Fulfilling his God given purpose that he created us for.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: And so I really, really love that you talk about that.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: And I I I was really excited.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: I was reading about it and um reading about how you were your your your desire is that it becomes more evident in the churches that we are talking about it, that it is a discussion of, you know, in the church, not something we're just shh sh sh shishing all the time.
44:24
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
44:25
SPEAKER_01: You know, it is to give a quick fix.
44:27
SPEAKER_01: You know, we've been guilty of that, you know, when someone comes forward, they share uh what's going on with them.
44:34
SPEAKER_01: Um and maybe we don't know how to handle it, maybe we haven't been educated, but sometimes we just give them a quick prayer, a scripture verse, a slap on the back and say, You're good now.
44:45
SPEAKER_01: That doesn't do it.
44:47
SPEAKER_00: No.
44:48
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm I'm a coach and and and you know, I'm a Christian life coach, and I I do what's called a power hour and a power hour plus where I give somebody a motivational talk.
44:57
SPEAKER_00: And it's really good for someone who's just kind of like, you know, having a rough day.
45:02
SPEAKER_00: But somebody that really needs to be um having having their roots dug up and worked out and pull those weeds that need to literally be gotten rid of.
45:11
SPEAKER_00: You know, I start with a 90-day coaching program.
45:13
SPEAKER_00: I can't do it in a day, I can't do it in an hour.
45:16
SPEAKER_00: You know, in healing, you know, sometimes we want instant healing.
45:20
SPEAKER_00: A lot of people want hi instant gratification right now.
45:23
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't happen.
45:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it doesn't happen.
45:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:26
SPEAKER_00: No.
45:27
SPEAKER_00: If you want your food to be, you know, cardboard, then you know, there you go.
45:30
SPEAKER_00: Microwave it.
45:31
SPEAKER_00: But so yeah, so anyway, but um, I'm excited about what you're doing.
45:37
SPEAKER_00: And I'm um if you could just tell our listeners today, like how you can how they can get a hold of you and what they can do um if they want to partner or get involved or help with what you are trying to accomplish with um your ministry.
45:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, well, uh the website for the book is www.restoring-the-broken.com.
46:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, and from there there's a link where you can uh click on that and purchase the book through Amazon.
46:07
SPEAKER_01: It's available on Kindle, paperback, hardback.
46:11
SPEAKER_01: Uh my email is chapsbrandt ch a p s b-r-a-n-t at yahoo.com.
46:18
SPEAKER_01: Feel free if you want, if you have any further questions or you read the book, you have some questions.
46:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, in the book, several things.
46:26
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I encourage you to get it, give it to your ministers, um, have them read it.
46:30
SPEAKER_01: Uh, because what I encourage the church to do is to become a safe place, to become a place where people are trained for to listen for the right phrases that usually people with PTSD and moral injury may say, and then uh to train the people to listen without judgment or shock.
46:55
SPEAKER_01: Because uh so many of these folks want to tell their stories, but they're afraid of the reaction that they're going to bring.
47:02
SPEAKER_00: Right.
47:03
SPEAKER_01: I'm and but i if you can have uh people within the congregation trained to to listen for these phrases, trained to hear the stories without shock or judgment, um, then that goes so far with the building blocks of trust and then being able to show them step by step.
47:27
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes you just gotta, for a while, sometimes you just gotta sit with them in the ashes, um, until they're until they're ready for that next step, and then slowly walk them toward the concept that they are lovable, that they are forgivable, and God is ready and waiting on them.
47:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think sometimes we really do have to meet people in the trenches.
47:49
SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, I tell I you know, with my coaching is um, God wants to meet you where you're at.
47:56
SPEAKER_00: He's not gonna wait, you don't have to wait till you get it all figured out and cleaned up and all organized and all pretty packaged and ribbon and bow and whatever you want to do with it.
48:04
SPEAKER_00: You know, he wants you in the mess that you're in.
48:06
SPEAKER_00: And and the sooner, even in the mess that you're in, the sooner you take that step forward, the sooner God can actually help you and that healing and restoration can come.
48:15
SPEAKER_00: And I encourage that, like with every one of my listeners, like, you know, seek after God, get in the word, get in the Bible, um, get in a good prayer group, get in a good church that actually teaches the word of God, um, and not afraid to tell the truth.
48:28
SPEAKER_00: I love truth-seeking churches, and um there's a lot of good ones out there, so I'm not knocking churches by any means, by the way.
48:36
SPEAKER_01: I don't want people to think it's it's just there's so many places where they just simply don't know.
48:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but yeah, they're just not you know going to the full extreme.
48:47
SPEAKER_00: But um, excuse me, but having that said, I am going to put your information in the show notes so it will be readily available to them so when they watch this podcast, they can go right and get it.
48:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, I do that with every guest that I have.
48:58
SPEAKER_00: I like to share whatever it is that you're bringing to the table.
49:01
SPEAKER_00: And um, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on today and joining me.
49:05
SPEAKER_00: I really enjoyed our conversation.
49:07
SPEAKER_00: And I I want to meet your wife, by the way.
49:09
SPEAKER_00: Tell her I said hi.
49:11
SPEAKER_00: She sounds like an amazing woman.
49:12
SPEAKER_00: You're gonna have to have her on the next episode, okay?
49:16
SPEAKER_01: That sounds terrific.
49:17
SPEAKER_01: That sounds terrific.
49:18
SPEAKER_00: I would love that, but I love what you do.
49:20
SPEAKER_00: I really do.
49:21
SPEAKER_00: I and I think it's wonderful.
49:23
SPEAKER_00: And um, I'm glad that you know God called you because I I really feel like what you've done is amazing.
49:29
SPEAKER_00: And um, even though you know you're the three strikes you were out part, it does really work.
49:35
SPEAKER_00: I love that that you have that as a testimony too, because sometimes we want to convince God that it's not us that he's looking for, it's somebody else.
49:43
SPEAKER_00: You know, like go look at it.
49:45
SPEAKER_00: Don't send me to Africa.
49:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, when you're the little kid in class and the teacher's like, I'm gonna pick a I'm gonna pick someone, and you're like, Oh gosh, don't pick me.
49:53
SPEAKER_01: You automatically everybody slumps down on the seat.
49:57
SPEAKER_00: Or they look the other way.
49:58
SPEAKER_00: So, so no, you're not, and that's using the one the teacher picks, like the one that's hiding out, you know.
50:03
SPEAKER_00: I think God knows, you know.
50:05
SPEAKER_00: But you know, even if we don't know or understand sometimes, God knows already.
50:08
SPEAKER_00: He knows the outcome, he knows the end result.
50:10
SPEAKER_00: So it's already evident to him, it's just not evident to us, but we get to go through it.
50:14
SPEAKER_00: So, but I just want to say thank you for being here.
50:17
SPEAKER_00: I very much enjoyed um spending this time with you.
50:19
SPEAKER_00: And for all of our listeners, um, if you are struggling with PTSD, um if you want to talk about moral injury, um get a hold of Larry Brant and um email him, message him, and if you have questions, I'm sure he'd be glad to help you with that.
50:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, get his book.
50:34
SPEAKER_00: I think the book would be really, really uh beneficial and um offers a lot.
50:40
SPEAKER_00: And if you're looking for uh ways to conquer and get over strongholds, again, I do coaching myself.
50:47
SPEAKER_00: I also offer uh clarity call for free and I also do um prayer.
50:52
SPEAKER_00: So if you need prayer for anything, that is always free.
50:54
SPEAKER_00: 100% always, always, always available for prayer.
50:58
SPEAKER_00: You can go to my uh website, crushystrongholds.com, and um just say, Hey, I need prayer, and I will pray for you.
51:04
SPEAKER_00: So I just want to thank you all for listening.
51:06
SPEAKER_00: Larry, again, thank you for being here.
51:08
SPEAKER_00: And I hope that y'all have a wonderful and great and blessed day.
51:13
SPEAKER_00: Y'all take care.