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Integrative Therapy · Mental Health Matters

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_04: Hello and welcome to Mental Health Matters.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_04: This is the show where we don't take the hot takes or the quick fixes, we only offer thought-through practitioner-led discussion.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_04: And today's topic is integrative therapy, and we are bringing in Francesca Francis to talk about this.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_04: Now, integrative therapy is a lot more to do with not one size fits all.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_04: In fact, it kind of challenges that.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_04: Because otherwise you've got therapy which is you go to CBT or you go to psychoanalysis or gestal or whatever your mode or medium is, and that's all you're getting.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_04: And anyone who gets recommended CBT has to do CBT.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_04: Integrative says, hang on a minute, we'll use a little bit of CBT.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_04: We'll use a little bit of Gestel.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_04: It does require the practitioner to know a lot more, but it does draw from lots of different strands.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_04: So using that as a starting point.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_04: What are your thoughts on therapy in general, Jude?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_05: Um, well, I am a fan.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I think it's good, and I think that it is horses for courses.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_05: So I know that because it's not I haven't made a secret of the fact that I've had therapy because of work situations last year, and it's it's being really helpful.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_05: But it's it's a talk, it's a you know the the the typical talking therapy.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_05: I go to see a counsellor and I talk, but now I think actually either either that's done its job, uh which I don't think it has, I'm not there yet.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_04: We're all a work in progress, either.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_05: Um but may may maybe something else is needed because I kind of feel like it's it's I'm on a plateau.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_05: So there we go.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_05: It might it might need something else in Texas.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_04: You make a really good point because if you remember Kelly Thompson, our book doula, yeah, who also survived the 2020, uh it was the 20th year of the uh tsunami.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_04: So in 2026, um I think it was something like 20 years ago that they had the Boxing Day tsunami.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um she said she went through all the different types of talking therapies, but for somebody who can process really easily, like yourself, that's not enough.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_04: You need the shift in here.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's what integrative therapy focuses on.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_04: We're gonna bring Francesca on and find out more.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_05: It's lovely to meet you, Francesca.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_05: Welcome to the show.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's lovely to meet you too.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, we're we're looking forward to this discussion.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and we're wondering what integrative therapy looks like in practice.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so that's a very good question.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um so integrative practice is basically um when I see clients I draw from different different therapeutic models.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I might use CBT and I might use a bit of person-centred, so it's really just putting in different um therapy approaches essentially to fit the client.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think it's really beneficial actually because um with some clients you know they bring so many different things that may not work for one specific module.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I like to draw from different types of modules.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think um because I work with both adults and children, and I find that working with children I normally do draw from different different therapeutic approaches, um, because yeah, children children like bring in different things, and I think it it's good to be able to implement different different things based on their needs essentially.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, absolutely.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_05: So, on the other hand, then how might a rigid school of therapy, so for example, just using CBT or or talking therapies, how might that hinder the healing?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it really I think it really depends on the client because some clients, as I said, are are different.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I mean every client is different, but some clients bring in may bring in something that may say benefit from um a bit of a CBT but also a bit of person centred.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I think if you stay in one lane, uh that it might not cover it might not cover all aspects of what the person, you know, what the person's bringing in.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's quite good to bring in different therapeutic approaches um because the needs can be quite, you know, they can be quite varied, and it's quite good to be able to say, you know, I think you may benefit from a bit of CBT and then implementing a bit of person-centred.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's good to be able to cover different aspects of what they're bringing.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, especially when work, I think now when I work with children, if I go in with one therapeutic approach in mind, actually, you know, I I might have it in my head that person-centred is a great fit, but actually what they're bringing fits more between person-centred um sorry, CBT.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: So it's yeah.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's that's really interesting because what it sounds like is fundamentally you have this clear understanding that people need more than one mode of healing, but I know I will have been trained on you've got CBT diploma, or you've got your um acceptance and commitment therapy, or you've got NLP, it's very specific.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_04: Was there a point in your practice or your training where you said, Do you know what?
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_04: One model is not enough, it has to be a lot more integrated.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I went into a therapy, um, an integrative course actually.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: So my course was covering all the modules, but the reason I went into that course is because from what I understand before going into a therapy course, what I understood of people is that one size doesn't fit all.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: That makes so I just thought, you know, if I go into a therapy course just studying, say, for example, person-centred, actually, I might meet a client that needs some CBT.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I I went in basically with the idea of that one size may not fit all, and it will be good to have, even if I don't use all the all the different therapeutic modules modules, or what that you know, one client, it's good to have a background of different ones, and just you know, because yeah, every person's different, and I like to pick out different.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: So, for example, I might have a client where you know they're more they want they come in wanting CBT and they have CBT, and then they're like, actually, I'm a third person centered, and I have the ability to be able to do that.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, yeah.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's great, and I think it's great that they are offering training on an integrative basis because I know when I was training, it was very you choose one school, and that's that's it, you're you're done.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_04: And that's also why a lot of therapists can be quite cagey about their discipline.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_04: You know, it's this is the one I do, and that's the best one kind of thing, which I don't think don't think it's healthy.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_04: So it's great what you're doing, Francesca.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_04: So on that, what does good integrative therapy look like in practice?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_04: But by the same token, what does bad look like?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_04: Just for the client to be able to kind of know, but this is taking out the I don't like my therapist aspect.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think mainly, you know, when you're looking for a pet therapist, it's you know, it's very, I think it's quite easy to be like, this therapist doesn't get me, essentially.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean I've had therapy and I know how difficult going to therapy, you know, going to therapy is, and I know how uncomfortable it can feel when you first, you know, you're talking to someone and you you're having to open up and it's it is quite it can be quite difficult, I think.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um but what does good look like?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think what good looks like is really understanding the person that you're that you're that you're with, essentially.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, you can you you I think you'll be able to tell when you have a therapist if that you feel like you're getting on with a therapist, like you're being understood.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's what I'm trying to say is that you're being understood, um, and that your problems when you're when you're speaking about you know anything that's going on in your life, that it's not you know, not shut down, it's not like, oh, you know, that's you're over you're being silly, that you know, that that type of thing um essentially isn't, you know, because people have different ways, you know, if if someone's coming in with a problem, um that problem might seem quite small to you, but actually quite big to the person.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um and yeah, it's about really being understood and being able to, you know, be a therapist and be like, actually, I think you know, CBT might work best for that situation, or I think person centred might work best for you.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um so being diplomatic, I think is is as well.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: So being able to be like, actually, I think this approach would work best for this situation, or this, you know, this therapeutic approach might suit this this bit what you're saying.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, that's basically what I think.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_04: So just to go back what to what bad integrative therapy looks like, is that just using approaches without explaining what you're going to be doing, or because from what you're talking about, a person who doesn't understand doesn't feel understood by the therapist, that could just be a personality clash.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_04: It may not be the therapy itself.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_04: But what does bad integrative therapy look like?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_04: I've gone to an integrative therapist, it's not that I don't like the therapist.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_04: How do I know whether I'm getting what I need?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's lack of explanation.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: So if you say, you know, this is I'm you I'm gonna use CBT on you, the therapist might uh the client might be like, Well, you know, what is what is CBT?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I've never heard of it before.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we can't go into therapy thinking that people are going to know what these models are.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's best to explain them and go through them and say how it's going to help and what what you're going to use.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because you know, these are terms that are not used in every day.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um like before I started the course, I I didn't know what CBT was.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um so you need to really explain how it's how you're using it and how it's it's going to how it's going to work.
• 10:40
  unknown: Yeah.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um because yeah, it's you know, when you're when you're talking to a client, you have you do have to like with anything really, you have to explain what what you're doing.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so that's yeah, so I think that's right in saying that, you know, not explaining it and not explaining how the module is how the therapeutic approach is going to be used.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_04: Brilliant.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um, we're gonna keep you, Francesca.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_04: We're gonna go across to a previous guest Sandra Stein, who's talked about gestalt therapy, and we can learn about that.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um I was drawn to Gestalt when I was researching what kind of uh school of thought I wanted to learn to then become a counsellor.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And Gestalt was uh more attractive to me because it has this approach of exploring a whole person, your whole being.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's not just your past, it's not just um yourself, but also the relationship between yourself and the environment.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: So because that's how we live.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: We don't live in isolation, we live with other people and in and we go through life through different uh moments in life, and it's a journey.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: So gestou open um to uh receive that and uh to welcome you as as who you are, how you are, and uh also to invite you to explore the parts of yourself, the little parts that make your whole being.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: And some of these parts we don't want to look at them, we have ignored them, we have neglected them.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that's the most powerful thing about the methodology um of gestalt because it is humanistic and existential.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, yes.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_05: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters, where we're having a discussion about um integrative therapy with Francesca Francis and learning all about the different therapies that there are.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_05: Um how do you decide with your clients which type of therapy to use, or do some of your clients come with a kind of an idea I would like this type of therapy?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um so it really does depend.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think some clients do come with, you know, they like you know, I really want CBT to help with this, or normally I do like an interjection where I just discuss what type of therapy I offer and how it can be used for them.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um but it really does depend.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: I think with children, I normally within the first session get an idea of where the child is at and see what therapy approach that I think would suit them, and then I implement it and I normally draw from different types of approaches anyway to you know to see what best fits.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, it really depends on you know what the if the client has something in mind.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes actually the client will come to me, you know, come to therapy and say, you know, I'm really set on CBT, but actually when they're in therapy, they're more they move more towards person-centred.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: I've seen that happen quite a lot where you know they have this idea of what CBT is, and then they come and they actually prefer a person-centred approach.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, it really does depend.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_04: I've just to interrupt there, I think it's quite funny because it is really common that actually people confuse CBT and person-centred.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_04: A lot of therapy has to be relatively person-centred, but CBT is a more challenging um approach.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_04: Person-centred is very led by the client.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_05: So, can I just ask them?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_05: Because obviously I'm a lay person when it comes to this.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_05: When you when you say person-centred, is that the tip the the traditional talking to your counsellor?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_04: A lot of them are all talking to counsellors.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, so what so CBT is a talking therapy, psychoanalysis is talking therapy, person-centred.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_04: CBT, well, I mean, I just should let Francesca respond, really, actually.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_04: Can you can you give us the difference between person-centred and CBT, please?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think the main difference is that CBT is a bit more structured.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's a a bit of a more simple way to put it.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: So, person-centred, I think personally, what I think of person-centered is that it's quite client-led.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so you're letting the client, you know, you're you're picking things up from what is being said, whereas per whereas CBT is has more structure, so you might follow a certain, you know, you might follow a certain pattern and analyse that type, you know, that type of thing.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas person-centred is a lot more like client-led reflection.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: I hope, yeah, I hope that makes I hope that's a good way of explaining it.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that makes sense, thank you.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_05: I I mean it yes, it these are terms that obviously you'll you use in your your daily lives, and um I was just trying to think what the difference was between them.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_04: So and I think Francesca will go on to this later, but I think person-centred would always work better with children.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_04: Ah, okay.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_04: Because you can't adults sometimes the structure really works for them.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_04: But a child may not respond quite so well, which actually brings you to your next question in the phase.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_05: Well, yeah, absolutely.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_05: So, um, how how can you tell if if a therapeutic style that you might be using isn't working, and conversely, what happens if the client doesn't really like it, but you can see that it is bringing results?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's a really interesting question actually, because I think um with counselling it can feel quite it can feel quite uncomfortable, that's what I'm trying to say.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: At the beginning, I mean I I when I went to therapy, I I felt quite uncomfortable and I was like, oh, you know, is this you know, is this meant to feel like this essentially?
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: And the thing is, I think what we need to say to clients is when they start therapy is that it's it's not an immediate fix, it's it takes time, it takes a good few sessions to you know to to feel like it's you're getting somewhere with it.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I think in terms of approach, I think it's always best to speak to your client about how they feel about the approach.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: Is there anything that you know that you feel like would work better?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because you know, you the client is you know the main person in this, you want them to feel comfortable, but it's also very good to point out that it's not going to feel it's gonna feel uncomfortable.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I remember being in the other chair and I remember the feelings and it's not it's not you know you you some it's all different, it depends on the client.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: Some some people come to therapy and they you know they from the start they feel a difference, but some people it does feel uncomfortable, and I think it's good to have that conversation that it can feel uncomfortable, and if it is working, it sometimes it is best to see how how it can help, just wait basically waiting it out, but also having that conversation if it if it feels too uncomfortable that you know when to step to step away from that approach.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, so that's that's my take on that, that it it can feel uncomfortable, and it's it's good for for me doing therapy, it's quite nice to have an idea of what it's like being a client.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's very important, yeah.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: Because you can actually understand how it feels, um, and you can you yeah, it's it's quite easier to it's a bit more easier to explain than not having therapy and not understanding what it feels like, but being a therapist.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: Why isn't this working?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, trauma re-traumatising the the client.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_04: Um now you use the digital space as well when it comes to therapy.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_04: When did you realise that actually the digital space could be a therapeutic space?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's that is another very good question.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think in terms of I'd done an article actually on um digital space and it was about get ready with me for uh videos because I'm quite young and I am on social media, and I often see you know, I see the bad in social media and I see the bad in the digital world, but I also see a side that actually can bring um like a community feel.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think a lot of our lives are on social media, and a lot of people are on social media, and I do see a lot of young people going on social media, and you know, it feels like a community.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I'm trying to feel like.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what I'm trying to say, that it can feel like a community space.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think it's also important to know when that space is overtaking real life, um but it can provide in some cases, it can it, you know, it's it's part of the world now that we live in, is you know, every everything seems to be online.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, the article basically explored um get ready with me type videos, which people talk to the camera and they do their makeup, and for people it can feel like you know, it can feel like a FaceTime, it can feel like you're there with them, and I think that's quite a nice feeling to have that you're you know you're there with someone, um, and a lot of celebrities have actually taken to that approach, and it can feel like you know them.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: But obviously, in terms of social media and the digital world, you don't want it to overtake, you know, your real life connections, but it can provide some sort of like community feel, that's what I'm trying to say.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_04: I really like that actually.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_04: I think that is a something that I have not heard in an interview that we've done, and we've done a lot of interviews.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_04: Social media as a community.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_04: Well, yes, exactly.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it does take talking to somebody who's younger.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_04: I don't mean to be patronising, but who gets it, you know?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_04: Because I will sit there and go, this is not my community, I don't understand this.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_04: But it what you're doing is you are understanding how your contemporaries are using the space and therefore putting something healthy out into that space.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_04: So I just want to pull on something that you did say though.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_04: What where do you get that fine line of I'm now spending too long on social media?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_04: Because I think that sounds like the danger.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_04: This is so comforting, it's lovely, I'm only watching positive stuff, but I'm on it 24-7.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I think it well, I mean, it's a problem that we are facing today.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: I've seen like Doom Scroll scrolling a lot of the times where people just consistently scroll and scroll.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's to the point where if you feel like it's taking over your life, so if you're not going out and you would rather scroll and scroll for hours, I think it's important then to be like, actually, this is becoming a bit of a concern.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, it it depends really on you know on the person and what their limits are, you know.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: On some people have few hours and that is it, or some people spend a bit longer and they're happy with that.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: But I think if yeah, if it's taking over your personal relationships, if it's affecting In work because you know you you're rather scrolling on your phone.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: That I think that's then like you know to the point where it needs to be you know reduced.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean I think social media can be very addicting, and although I'm saying it does feel like a community, I think I I do understand that social media isn't all sunshine and rainbows essentially, and it can be very a very damaging place.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I think it does provide, you know, because everything everything is on social media, everything is online, um, and I don't bash social media that much because it's a massive part of people's, it's part of my life, it's part of most people, most people's lives.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's also important to understand that it can it can be quite addicting and quite yeah, it can be it can be addicting and sometimes we get into these loops of consistently scrolling and yeah.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_04: No, I think that's that's really fair.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe you can do more some videos on that actually, is when to get off social media.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_04: I think that that can be really helpful too.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_04: I know that there's an irony of being on social media doing that, but I think that could be really because I think you would speak to young people very much better than I would, for example, because people relate to you.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um and on that note, we are going to pop across to uh an interview that we did with Amy Rebecca, and she will be talking a little bit about how she uses social media.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of content now that we see people putting out feels um aspirational in a way that is um it almost makes you feel bad about yourself.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like as if my life is supposed to be envied by other people who don't live that life.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and it can make people feel really badly about themselves.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm very much open, honest.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: I will, especially on my TikTok, sometimes I think, wow, that is a bad angle.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: I've got no makeup on, I look like a hot mess, and I'm I've just had a panic attack in my car, but I'm gonna post it anyway because it's real.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because ultimately, my whole message is I am just an average girl.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: I am just average, and anything that you see me do or accomplish, or anything that you see that I'm doing, and you think, oh, I'd love to be able to do that, you can because I have, and I am no different from you.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: So my lifestyle is very ordinary, very average.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I work a nine to five.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: If I can do this, so can anyone, and that's the message I want to get across.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_05: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters, where we're we're talking with Francesca Francis about integrative therapy.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_05: It's an interesting discussion.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and we were talking about the online presence um just before the break.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_05: So, um, how do you protect your professional identity online?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so um I'm actually quite new to showing on social media, actually.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was quite an area that I um being honest, I felt quite difficult to navigate because when you're a counsellor, obviously you have to respect boundaries and you have to be ethical, and I think it was one of those things that I didn't quite know where to start with being completely honest.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but the way I share on social media is that yeah, I I basically share what tools I use more so with children because when I first started I had this idea that I think I had this idea that you have to have like these extravagant toys with big faces and colours and everything that I thought would work with children, actually, it does still work, but actually I find that really min minimal you know tools can really help children and so I basically like to share that.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: I like to share what I use and you know if it can help other counsellors, you know, implement it in their sessions.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, in terms of how I share, I don't obviously disclose any information of the client.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: I don't ever put you know where the sessions are held.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm very strict in terms of how I'm sharing, it's just the tools that I'm using that can basically if they help other counselors, because my idea was that children need these, all these colours and you know, faces in therapy.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, I found that I used peg dolls which don't have faces on them, and they are very simple, they actually wouldn't.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: And they worked so well, and I I don't think at the start I wouldn't have even thought of that.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I I generally wouldn't.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: I you know, I was bringing in toys that have massive facial expressions, and you know, with all these different things that you obviously depended on the child.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying this don't doesn't work because obviously every child is different, and some children really like that, but the simplicity of the stuff that I was bringing in really worked and it really took off.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I was thinking, you know, if I can share this on social media, it might actually help other people.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, that's that's basically what I do.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_04: I I can just interrupt there because I think you've touched on something which a lot of especially younger, newer therapists are gonna be feeling.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_04: They're gonna look at social media and go, I don't have that money to do those big faces, or the or whether you're working with adults suddenly having all of these special gimmicks and things.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_04: And I think people will really resonate with that that you are using something which you can get in an art supply, and it worked.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's really important, and it's important to say that to people that it doesn't matter what your prop is, essentially, it kind of depends on the person using the prop.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_05: Exactly, and it and I love this the simplicity of it as as you said, you've stripped it all back, and and that probably takes away some some stress as well.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_05: Probably makes it it makes me feel calm and that you know the way you're speaking about your props.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_05: I just think that's lovely.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_05: You obviously offer a nice, calm environment for your clients.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, because I think you know that pressure to perform as a therapist as well, that feeds into your clients.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_05: It must be.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_04: You know, because you're there going, Oh, I need to show you this prop or that it that's a problem as well.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_04: So no, thank you for raising that.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_04: Sorry to interrupt.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_05: No, that's fine.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_05: It's yeah, it's really interesting.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_05: Um, how do you think that social media has shaped the understanding around mental health?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_05: And um, is it a good or a bad thing?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think it's well, I think social media has impacted quite a lot of young people's mental health.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I mean there are two sides, there is the good and the bad, I think, personally.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think the bad is that we are now so able to share, we are so able to share on social media that people, you know, are just commenting, you know, on TikTok, for example, you have people commenting about people's personal, you know, appearances about they look, and it's so easy to do that now that it does, I think it does impact a lot of young people's self mental health.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um but also going back to what I said about social media being feeling like a bit like a community, I think it it it can, you know, in the right ways and the right the right, you know, in the right ways it can help people with their mental health because they might not feel so alone.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like you know, when you know when you're watching people, um just doing simple things like running and doing their makeup on TikTok, you don't feel so alone, and I think that's quite important that you you you know, like loneliness is quite a big thing for young people in the middle.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it you know, although you have you feel like you're part of the you know, you feel like you're part of something, which can be, you know, positive, but also I've seen social media in its bad forms and I've seen it in its good, and I think it really it depends how you use social media, what I'm trying to say.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: It it can feel really positive, but then it can feel it can feel quite negative if you're consistently scrolling and comparing your life to other people's lives.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's quite a common one.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, that's I mean I that's happened to me.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: I compare myself to people on social media.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's quite natural to do that, and it's quite important to know how to stop that to stop yourself from comparing to what you see on social media, because obviously what you see on social media isn't some necessarily someone's everyday life.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, that yeah, that's what I'm trying to say.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, I and I think I think because I can see, I can see you're thinking it through, and I love it, I love it.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um because this next question really is for you, because how do you see therapy evolving?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_04: Because for me, I don't think I would ever have considered social media as a community until you brought it up.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_04: I don't think it's my community, but I think it is you it it's yours, and we need therapists in that area.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_04: So, how do you see therapy evolving?
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe not for you know people who trained back in the O2 something, but now new therapists.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: I yeah, I think it's quite interesting, new therapists, because we know so much now about how social media impacts people's lives.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: We know so much about, you know, we know so much about it now, and um I think it's it is going to evolve.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's going to have new, you know, maybe potentially young people stepping into the into the therapeutic world and you know, trying to combat this, you know, the social media, you know.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_04: I agree.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think I think that is potentially something that could happen because we've got a young lot of young people actually wanting to come into the space and wanting to make a difference to young people's, which is so important because I mean I'm part of obviously I'm quite young, I'm not you know, and I'm I'm f I find it easy to relate to them, but also from a psychological perspective, I know how certain things work, you know, how social media can impact them, and yeah, it's quite interesting actually.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, being in this space young, it is very interesting.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_04: It is, and I think you're in a beautiful space, yeah, because again, you've pointed out something which I don't really think about.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_04: We have got to the point now where we do know the dangers of social media.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_04: So when when we were getting on social media, we were just going on it, oh, it's fine, whatever's just done.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_04: Then we suddenly all went, oh no, this is the real problem.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_04: But what you when you're when you and people who follow you are being trained now, one of those modules is going to be, these are the dangers of social media.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_04: People know it.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and that's really important.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_04: So, on that note, what might you suggest to professionals, older professionals even, who've been in the system for a long time, who work with both adults and young people, probably more relating to young people, um, when it comes to using social media a bit more and creating this space that I think you can create which is safe and positive and a community.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_04: What might you say to people like me?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_04: How can I join in?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's a very good question.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's more about awareness, um, because a lot of young people, like it's very hard to say to someone that is young, you know, just just delete, just delete the app, just come off it.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's quite a common easy it can be to be like, you know, just delete it.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, you know, young people that is part of their life, so it's not as easy as just deleting the app, it's actually what it carries, it you know, it carries part of them.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um so awareness of how social media, even though it can be a bad place, but understanding that it is it can be part of the person, um, whether they want it to be or not, I think you know, uh well, um I mean you know it's it's it's difficult.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: It you know, as much as it becomes, you know, this bad place, but actually it it becomes part it becomes part of you.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're you know, if you've got a TikTok account, and those are people know like it, you know, it becomes part of your routine, like looking through.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I think completely shutting social media down, I don't think it's ever gonna work, especially for young people.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um but awareness of potentially bringing awareness of how it can potentially shape a young person and knowing the signs of when it becomes too much, when it, you know, when it becomes damaging, how it I think also awareness of how it can help, because I think we are quite quick into in in the society to to to be like actually, you know, it's really toxic, but there are some positives, you know, they they are can be quite small, but there are some positives that it does bring people and looking at it from a different perspective rather than from a bad from a bad place, like looking at actually, you know, this this can be helpful, but in moderation.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's what you're trying to say.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_05: Can I ask a quick extra question then?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_05: I'm just really interested to know if as a young person what what you think of the proposal to stop children um having smartphones.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, yeah, that's another interesting thing.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think young people now are very when they you know, if a young person is on social media, they are prone to seeing things that can be quite damaging.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I completely understand why that would be, you know, because social media it can be very damaging, and having a young person very, very young on social media where they haven't got that awareness of how it can be damaging can really affect them.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I think I think you know the age limit can help because as much as you try and bring awareness to say like a seven, eight-year-old, how much is that actually going in?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: Because they are very, very young people and being on social media at such a young age can really, you know, can be really damaging.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um trying to work on a project where we're bringing awareness to parents about the warning signs and the you know how to, you know, essentially help the child with social media and the parents understanding like you know what type what is out there because a lot of parents it's so hard to know what is out there on social media, like what is my child actually looking at.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's it's literally a a mindfield out there with social media.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: So we're we are we're trying to work on that.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, that is a very that was a good question.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_04: And and a good answer as well, actually.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_04: Um where can we learn more about you?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I do have a website, it's Francesca Francis Ferrap Francesca Frances Therapy, um, and I am on you know, social media, I am on LinkedIn, I do post my content on there, um, which is Francesca Frances Amazing.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_04: We shall head thank you, Francesca.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_04: We shall head over to test the trend.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm studying a master's at UCL and I'm doing the project alongside the masters.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but mainly we are trying to cover um video formats of what to look out for in terms of child the spaces of online, the online world.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: So essentially we'd be looking at like the types of apps that are we are going to form a top five.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um so we'll be looking at the apps that can be quite damaging, the online games where they have like the chats access accessible um for children to chat onto.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: We're looking at that.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: We're looking at social media posts in particular, like going through what type of social media posts can be quite damaging for a child to watch.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, we're mainly covering the the online space of you know what the you know, essentially what is out there for the child to be looking at and how it can affect their mental health.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: Often, well, it can happen that a child may you know not want to attend school because they've had a fallout online.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's quite a common, common one.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um they might behavioural changes, um, like strong new interests that that have come from online, but even potentially eating um so limiting what they eat and you know, you know, not wanting to say, for example, if they normally like a bar of chocolate after school, actually, no mum I'm not eating that because I've seen something online that's really bad, that type of thing.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so really looking at like behavioural changes that can happen that are not always you know visible immediately.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: Just to give a bit of awareness of how it can look before it escalates further, like really seeing how a child is behaving, obviously not analysing them completely, but just making awareness of how it can affect the child's behaviour.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I found that very eye-opening actually.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, from your perspective, obviously, you're not a lay person like I am, so yeah, I can I can but I found it hugely interesting, you know, and informative.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I can see that you were coming at it from a different angle, and it reveals to me how set in my ways I've become.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_05: Oh really?
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_04: And I love that, I love that when she says, you know, well now social media we're learning what the dangers are.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_04: Whereas I can sit there and go, oh no, it's just dangerous.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, no, you're teaching people, the new set of therapists, that it is dangerous.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_04: This is what we're doing about it, this is what UCL is researching, which is I think that's brilliant.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_05: It's brilliant, and I really loved um when Francesca mentioned about the online communities because I've experienced that myself and I know how beneficial an online community is, and that's with with the choir in lockdown, and since since lockdown too, but that was imperative that sense of community for people who lived alone, yeah.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_05: And I know that it was literally, in some cases, a lifesaver because you know we've had people talk to us, so I can see how that would still work, even in the world now which we don't have to sit at home, but some people some people it's normal to have an online community and a real life community, yes, whereas we might find that more difficult to understand.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_05: We're not stuck at home, we don't have to only be online.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_05: Why would you want that?
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_05: But actually, I can see the benefit.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_04: And then the other thing that she said was about teaching parents to understand what their child is looking at.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_04: But I think related to that is something that we had on the show with Danny about cyber safety.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um, the online world is at the moment probably still more attractive than the offline world in some cases.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_04: And the other, and I hope the research shows this as well, when it comes to parenting, do some nice things with your kids.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_04: Well, exactly.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_05: Exactly.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_04: Don't just stick them in front of a screen and then wonder why they're in front of a screen.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, so take them to see some cows in a field or whatever, whatever.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_04: And on that note, have a healthy week.