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#013 Jason Flom with Everton Wagstaffe · Wrongful Conviction

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Everton Wagstaff is a source of inspiration to me that
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I am just super grateful to have his talk that
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: he gives at the end of the episode that you're
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: about to hear, which was just stream of consciousness. Man,
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: he drops some knowledge that I really needed to hear,
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: and I think a lot of other people do too,
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: So please listen all the way through to the interview
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: I did with Everton Wagstaff back when it first aired
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: on February twenty seventh of twenty seventeen. The good news
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: is finally, after suffering through over two decades of wrongful imprisonment,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Everton received a fourteen point six million dollar settlement in
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: June of twenty seventeen. Everton, you deserve all the happiness
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: in the world and I wish you blessings on blessings.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: You are a hero to me. With the police banging
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: on the door, open up.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: The choice to be in that lineup was the last
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: choice I made as a free man. A year later,
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: I ended up writing the system.
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: I'm going to be one of those people who everyone
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: in the world is going to think as a monster
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life,
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: and I'm just going to have to come to peace
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: with that.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: Somebody was able to look at my picture in the
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: might have to play in my hanging. They had been
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: told that two prison officers would have to participate in
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: my execution. Now I walked back inside that prison for
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: the last time. Man all help broke loose.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: But in nineteen ninety two, Everton Wagstaff was arrested and
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: charged with the kidnapping, rape, and murder of a sixteen
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: year old girl, Jennifer Negron in Brooklyn, New York. Wagstaff
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: and another man who he didn't know, Reginald Connor, were
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: both convicted for the girl's brutal killing. His arrest and
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: conviction were based almost entirely on the word of a
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: drug addicted sex worker, a heroin addict named Brunilda Capella,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: who claimed falsely that she discovered the body.
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: He's spent twenty three years behind bars, and spent even
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: longer than that fighting a legal battle against a justice system. Tonight,
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: this Brooklyn man, he is finally free. Everton Wagstaff's wrongful
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: conviction has been overturned.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: He ultimately served almost twenty three years in prison and
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: survived based on an incredible positive attitude and a will
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: to live and persevere. He was exonerated in twenty fourteen,
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: and he's here today. This is his story.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: I was so curious about coming to this Clenchion America.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: A year later, I ended up writing the system.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flomm.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: Today's guest is the one and only Everton Wagstaff. And
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: you'll understand why I say the one and only after
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: you get to hear his incredible story and his unique
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: perspective and wonderful attitude about everything that he's been through
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: and about the world in general. Everton, welcome to the show.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: Thank you for having me so, Everton. We have a
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: tradition here at Wrongful Conviction. We start at the beginning
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: and then we worked through the whole story right to
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: the present, starting back at the beginning. You're originally from Jamaica, right, yes,
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: and not Jamaica Queens.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: Jamaica, actual Jamaican Island. Did Jamaica Island?
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I know. Everybody's always giving you a hard
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: time about the Jamaican bobsled team. But that wasn't you.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: That was some of the guys. Tell me about growing
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: up in Jamaica. First of all, did you have a
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: happy life there? What was it like?
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was happy. I grew up with my grand appearance.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: We pretty much have basic necessities. Weren't like in Nita
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: for any thing, you know, prett to live off the land,
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: nothing to complain about. It was fairly fairly well.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: And you came here in your young twenties. What led
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: you to make the decision to come to New York
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: it's a big change.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: Well, you know what, I've always heard about America And
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: I said, whoa, what was? And I was so curious
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: about coming to this country. I've been seeing all these things.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Had you ever been here before? No, you've never been here,
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: and you just decided to move exactly, pretty brave.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: And you know, I was curious about here. But a
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: year later I ended up writing the system.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: I mean unfortunately, Yeah, I mean that's a rude awakening,
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: like very not welcome to New York, right, exactly the
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: opposite of welcome exactly exactly. So you were living in Brooklyn, right,
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: when you got here.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was living in Brooklyn. I that in the
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: Bronx with my mom, you know. Then I live on
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: my own in Long Island with a former girlfriend.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: So you moved around a little bit, yes, And what
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: were you doing to make a living while you were
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: here in the beginning, Well.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: I used to do a little construction with my step dad.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: He used to be one of those guys that'd helped
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: with the Brooklyn Bridge.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: So you came to America in what year, late.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: Eighty nine, ninety early nineties, and.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: A year later everything went wrong.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: Everything went wrong, Yeah, which.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: Is a crazy story. I mean, there was a lot
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: of crime in New York back then, and there was
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: a lot of pressure on the police to solve crimes. Yes,
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: And there was a terrible crime that happened at that time,
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: a young girl, sixteen year old girl was kidnapped, raped,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: and murdered. So naturally there's going to be a lot
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: of pressure on the cops to resolve this and restore
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: some faith or some calm to the community. And they
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: ended up getting not only one wrong guy, but two
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: wrong guys. They ended up getting you and another guy, Yes,
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: And they managed to arrest and ultimately convict you without
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: any physical evidence exactly, which is it's a crazy story.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, we hear so many crazy stories here on
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. Take us through it. So we're wor you
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: did they come and kick in your door or like
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: did how did you end up getting arrested and what
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: were you thinking at the time.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: Actually I was on a payphone in East New York
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: and and my car came up and took me off
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: the phone and said that there and said it was
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: going to take me to the precinct to check something out.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: And that was it. I ended up getting interrogated for
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: this crime. The ax me where I was between such
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: and such a time at tim I was nowhere in
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: the area. I was in Long Island. And they keep
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: saying that they have a witness Hooken said that I
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: commit a crime and before and so on, and I
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: tell them and I didn't commit a crime, And they
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: have the wrong person. So they had met the person
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: from at least from about twelve or eleven in the
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: afternoon until about one o'clock twelve one o'clock midnight. So
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: I put me on this line up to have this
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: girl came in. I know who it was at that time.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: Came in and they said I was identifying as another
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: person who committed the crime. And I was like, this
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: is impossible. I didn't commit a crime if nobody to speak,
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: but I was not in the era. It's that you
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: guys said I was name in that era.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: At the time we were interrogating. Did you have a
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: lawyer or anybody else? No, and no lawyer, nothing, And
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: so you're new in this country, yes, and it's got
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: to be totally bewildering and overwhelming. Did they threaten you.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: Well, it didn't make a lot of fun of I mean,
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: because I told them that I needed to speak to
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: a lawyer and they asked me who I want me
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: to get that want me to get to Kobe and
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: Myers or something like that.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: For those of you, for those of you who aren't
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: from New York, to Phobean Wires is sort of a
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: punchline because they're always advertising on TV anyway, That's why
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: he brought it up. So, yeah, so they're making fun
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: of you. They're probably bored too, because you're in there
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: for twelve hours, right, So did they give you anything
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: to eat or drink or anything like that? So you're
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: just sitting in this room for twelve hours. They're coming
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: in and out, and the typical interrogation, no videotaping, no nothing, nothing.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: But you didn't admit to anything.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: No, you know, I wouldn't admit to something I didn't do.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: And ultimately the whole situation got really surreal, right because
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: they were so desperate it seems like in retrospect to
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: get a conviction that they went to pretty extraordinary lengths
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: to frame you. And talk to me about the other
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: guy who was convicted at the time.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: Oh, his name was Reginald 'conna. Actually didn't know reginal'conna.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: We were never a friend, never hang out there or
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: anything like that. Too much put us together.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: So Reginald Cotton was your co defendant in the trial.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: He also was convicted. I was wondering whether you guys
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: had even known each other, but no, it's just random.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: Were you in jail awaiting trial? Were you out on bail?
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: I was in jail in Rockers Island, in.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: Rikers Island, Yes, that's a hell of a place to
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: be in jail. Was it as bad back then as
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: it is now?
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: It was worse then.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: How long were you in Rikers awaiting the.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: Trial about a year and a few months ago.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: If you say that very casual, it's a long time,
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: especially in that place. It was how much was bail?
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: Ye was? Then Bill said nobu?
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: Well yeah, I guess it was a kidnapping raider a child. Yes,
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: So yeah, they didn't send any bells. So you're stuck there.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: A year and a quarter goes by and you finally
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: brought the trial. First of all, we tried together separately
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: to get it together with this guy who you didn't know.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: Had you met him in Rikers? Was he there as well?
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: Actually, when I went to court, that's when I first
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: saw him. I know that we were charged to get
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: it right. I didn't see we didn't say, in the
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: same facility when we were on the island.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: So you didn't get to know each other at all.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: On the island. No, it's when I went to the
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: court that I saw him there and I was asking
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: what's going on? And he was clueless.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: I of course he was because he was innocent too,
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: exactly right. So you your partners in this nightmare, so
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: to speak, strangers who were thrown together pretty much, Yes,
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: by this nightmare of police and prosecutorial misconduct and various
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: other factors that led to you being stuck in this situation.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: You're such a positive person and you have such an
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: amazing outlook, but when you went to trial, you must
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: have been somewhat skeptical because by now you had been
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: you knew you were innocent. It seemed obvious from everything
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: that I know about the case, it would be really
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: hard for even a corrupt system to say, let's put
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: it on this guy. I mean, they knew you were innocent.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: Did you think that justice would be served? Or were
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: you at this point thinking I'm going down, They're going
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: to do whatever they have to do to get me.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: Actually, when I was on let's reverse back back to
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: Ruckas Island. When I was on the island, I pretty
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: much I wasn't really doing anything to help to clear myself.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: I was just saying that they had the run person,
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: and eventually they're going to get it right before you
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: can go to a nestroyal, because I was saying to
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: myself that I did not comment to crime. And there's
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: no person in the right mind who's going to come
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: and testify it to a crime that I know that
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: I didn't come. There's no way, So I wasn't really
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: doing anything. I was just like, you know, just like
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: probably just hanging out, you know, young twenty one years old.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: I was just hanging out there and said, they're going
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: to get it right until when I went to trial.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: I actually had this girl who actually it was not
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: in her right mind because she was an addict.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: And let's talk about her for a minute, right, because
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: this is where the story gets really crazy. The witness
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: against you wasn't just some random person. It was actually
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: a heroin addict who was completely strung out, so strong
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: out in fact, that she had to be kept in
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: a locked room prior to the trial for three days
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: so that they would be sure that she would show
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: up and be somewhat sober in order to testify. Right,
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: we know now that she was used in up to
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: twenty cases. They would wheel her out whenever they needed
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: somebody to testify against, somebody who they didn't have any
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: evidence against. Here would come Bruneil did, the heroin addict,
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: and who knows what favors they were doing for her,
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: because we know back then in Brooklyn there was a
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: lot of framing going on. There were a lot of
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: deals being made with witnesses, which could have involved something
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: as basic as dropping charge against them, or even favors
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: that may have been done that would involve cash or
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: drugs or who knows, because this was a pretty big
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: favor she was doing them to testify falsely and perjure
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: herself to help them resolve a case that they really
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: didn't want to have to deal with in the correct manner.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: But the idea that this woman who was obviously morally
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: bankrupt and completely just out of her mind exactly would
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: be used in twenty cases, I mean, that's something to
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: really reflect on and say. And of course it would
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: require someone with oversight of the whole situation to be
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: able to tie all those together and go, wait a minute,
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: how lucky could she be that she witnessed twenty different murders. Incredible,
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: But you didn't know about that while you were rikers. No,
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: you didn't know that they were going to wheel out
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: this heroinautic to testify again. So, in other words, so
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: you were actually and you had reason to expect that
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: you would be exonerated because you knew they couldn't have
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: any evidence against you.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: I didn't come at a crime.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: So you still had faith in the system, and you
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: still thought you're going to go to trial, They're going
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: to figure out they made a big heart.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: I was even I thought they wasn't going to go
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: to a trial. We're going to find out who coming
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: to crime before they even took me to trial because
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: I didn't come in a crime.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Right. But the bad news is, as we know that
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: when they arrested you, they stopped looking for the guy.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: So you go to trial together. How long did the
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: trial last? You had a court appointed lawyer, I'm assuming
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: because you didn't have money, and was your lawyer? Did
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: he seem interested? Was he competent?
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: Was he at that time? I thought he was doing
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: his best, you know, because I didn't know pretty much
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: anything about to do to show the system and the
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: representation one that you should be getting.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: I just did he come to the prison and meet
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: with you and interview No, he's shaking his head never. No,
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: you're looking at me like I'm crazy, So he never
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: came to interview you. I'm actually not a lawyer, but
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: I do have some common sense and would seem like
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: anybody who's going to represent somebody in a case in
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: which their life is literally at stake might want to
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: take the time, take one afternoon and say, you know what,
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go. I'm gonna skip my golf game
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: today and go over to Rikers and see what the
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: everthing has to say, see if he's got any information
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: that might be helpful. But that didn't happen.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: No, I guess when you're intigends, you know you're not
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: that fortunate.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: We know that public defenders are overworked, underpaid, overwhelmed. There
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: are a lot of very good ones, but you have
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: to be lucky to get one of those. It's almost
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: like another it's like a lottery. Then comes the moment,
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: so the jury goes out, they come back in.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: If ID my guilty and second degree kidnapping. Because the
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: judge initially dismissed the murder, I take away in because
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: they said there was an evidence.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: Right and and that's interesting too because the judge, let's
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: just reflect on that for a second. The judge refused.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: To submit the murder charge murvidence.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Because of lack of evidence. That's very powerful words. So
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: there was no evidence of that, but he allowed the
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: kidnapping charge to go forward. There was no evidence to
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: that either. Well the Capella there was Phoni why Brunilda
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: Capella and other than that, not only didn't they have
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: any physical evidence against you because there was no DNA,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: there was no blood, there was no traces of anything
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: or anything, but they also withheld evidence that would have
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: proved that you were innocent, yes, at the time, and
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: it took you a long time to discover that. So
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: the kidnapping charge goes forward. There was a headband, right,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: so this was another phony piece of evidence. There was
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: a headband, a black headband, I believe that was found
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: in the car, which they claimed.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: Actually they're saying that Cramston investigator discover numerous items inside
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: a car, but this particular headband is said belongs to
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: the victim. And one of the reasons why the prosecutor
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: said it belongs to the victim because they said that
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: there was this violence struggling in the car between Meando's
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: victim and joining. This violin struggle with the headbund was
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: ripped up as a result of the violent confrontation between
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: me and the witness, and the evidence proved that this
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: car is the car because of this headband. But probably
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: a month after the trial are so the headbund was
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: distroyed because if it was kept into evidence, it would
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: have been tested, I would have proven that did not
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: belong to the victim. But one of one's daughter, and
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: I think the prosecutors are the police knew this. That's
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: why they get rid of it. So there was an
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: evidence that even tests right.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: So let's just think about this for a seconds. So
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: there's a violent struggle in the car. Obviously you can't
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: see everything, but he's a big, strong guy, very muscular guy,
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: and there's a sixteen year old girl. So there's a
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: violent struggle. But there's no blood, there's no physical evidence.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: No here.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: But there's a head.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: A head.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: That's all that happened exactly. So they have to suspend
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: a lot of disbelief to get to that point. But furthermore,
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: going off of what you said, later on, it was
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: discovered that the owner of the car, the same person
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: who said that the car had been at the church
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: service until five point thirty in the morning, in which
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: case it would have been impossible for this car to
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: be used in the crime at the time that the
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: only witness said that it was. That same person also
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: said that that had been belonged to their daughter. Yes,
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: so the problem is they didn't turn that evidence over
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: to the defense.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: It was destroyed.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: It was destroyed, but it was found later. I mean,
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: they had an interview. The evidence was destroyed, but they
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: had an interview with the owner of the car, which
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: they did not turn over, and that had to be
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: discovered years and years later. Had they turned that over,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: the whole case falls apart.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: Exactly because the detective had gone to her to ask
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: about her car and she told him that her car
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: could not have been used in her crime because she
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: was using it at that particular time. Anything that would
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: have underminded people's case was never turned over to us.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: Right. That's again, that's where I really I just I
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: have a hard time processing that stuff. You know. It's
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: like I don't understand. I've never you know, I have
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: a lot of respect for law enforcement. I mean, we
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: need we need a justice system, we need prosecutors, we
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: need cops. You know. It's like when I was growing
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: up in the seventies, there was a bumper sticker that said,
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: you don't like cops, Next time you're in trouble, try
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: calling a hippie. Right, And so I'm very cognizant of
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: the fact that they play a very important role in society,
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: and I have a lot of respect for the fact
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: that they work at a dangerous job. Nobody's getting rich
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: doing it. But the bad guys, the bad actors in
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: the system, inflict so much damage and the fact that
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: they are able to, Like I'm trying to take myself
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: inside the mindset of these detectives who went to interview
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: this woman learned at that moment that you were innocent,
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: as was Reginald, and just chose to ignore it because
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: it was more convenient for them to wrap this case
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: up and move on with their life. And then they
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: went home and ate dinner and did whatever they did,
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: play with their kids. And it's a hard one for me.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe I just can't. I'm never going
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: to be comfortable with that. But that's what happened. And
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: now the jury comes back in. Tell me about that moment.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: I'm sure that my mother was sitting in the court
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: room and the jewy came back and they said that
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: the beach a verse did. The judge asked what was
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: the verdict, and they said I was guilty of second
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: degree kidnapping. My mom actually screaming out in the courthouse
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: and it was like totally shocking. I mean it was
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: totally unbelievable to me when you know, when when I
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: heard that, because I said, I didn't you know, I
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: did not comment to scrime. I hope could I could you?
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: People actually found me guilty for crimes I know I
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: did not commit, and so I was just like like
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: just did standing like shock?
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: Did you say anything? Did you?
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: I just told you I did not commit a crime.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: You said, so, yes, I did not comment in a crime.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: And then they took it away. Yeah. So now your
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: sense was twelve and a half to twenty five years.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: The problem with that is aside from the fact that
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: you were innocent and that you shouldn't have been in
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: the system in the first place, the problem is that
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: twelve and a half to twenty five could actually mean
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: life because when you're sends to twelve and a half
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: to twenty five, you're eligible for parole after a period
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: of time. But in order to get parole, you have
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: to express remorse. You have to which is essentially the
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: same as admitting guilt. Yes, and I want to get
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: to that, but first I want to talk about your
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: experience in prison, because we've spoken about it before and
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: it's quite remarkable that you are this joyful? Is the
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: best way I can describe your attitude about life. And
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: I know from having spent time with you and talked
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: about your years, your decades in prison, that you maintained
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: an upbeat and positive attitude through a situation that would
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: have broken down a different man, a different person. What
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: did it? How did you do it?
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: Well? You know, I know I was innocent of this crime.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: I know I had truth on my side. I know
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: that somebody was lying about this crime, and I know
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: it was not I wasn't the one lying about it.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: Kind of it in a comment of crime. And I
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: will tell to myself that I have to do something
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: about it, because we have to show that the truth
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: means something. If I just sit there and just didn't
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: do anything that means I would, it would be a
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: betrayal to the truth. I mean, so I had to
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: do something if it mean I have to sacrifice. But
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: sobeit and actually at first I didn't pretty much have
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: an indication about the judicial system, the police reports and
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: all these things. It's after having gone through a lot
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: of studying. I got books and rent books because I
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: used to work in a general library interlibrary loan books.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: I rent books from the outside, study what PaperWorks mean what,
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: and all these things and try to compare them under
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: some contrast, and all these things. And it was just
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: doing this time that I actually went and found those reports.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: And I tell myself that I could not have just
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: sit there and just like throw a pity party or
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: anything like that, you knowest I could not do that.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: I have to fight. I have to do what I
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: have to do, and that's the only way I would
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: be I would have been vindicated. And I went to
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: the legal research course inside here, I passed and get
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: a paralegal certificate where I could work in a lot
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: of library and help other inmates. And while I was
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: doing these things, this is the other things that actually
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: keeps me going. I used to read books and newspapers,
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: articles that came through the lot of library and the
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: general library where other peopils were being vindicated, you know,
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: of crime that I didn't come to commit. So these
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: are some of the things that I have seen that
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: actually give me some sense of hope because I said,
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: you know, one day it's going to be me, because
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: I know the truth adventure was going to vindicate me.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: Were you angry when I was first convicted. I actually
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: sit and cry and ask God why me? You know,
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: I didn't comment to scribe God, why didn't Why did
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: you allow this to happen to me? And I asked
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: a friend of mine who was there, and he said
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: to me, his question was because God knew what you
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: was gonna do, that he was going to fight it,
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: probably for something else that you probably put it in
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: the past or something like that probably would just sit
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: back and just didn't different to it. But God know
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: that you did not come and to describe it. You
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: know that you would have fight the way you did right, No,
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: you were fighting, and that's the reason probably why. And
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: it makes sense.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: But it's interesting because having spoken to so many and
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: they've been very fortunate to be able to spend time
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: and learn from literally hundreds of exgneries over the years
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: I've been doing this, you know, they all have a
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: different version of what you're saying. Some of them went
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: in angry, bitter, scared, but then they turned it around somehow.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: But it sounds like to me like you were like steadfast,
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: Like at first you had your moment, you allowed yourself
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: to cry, and then it sounds like you just bounced
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: uf you had this one guy who was like a
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: mentor kind of like who sort of steered you spiritually
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: or whatever.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: There wasn't any time to true pity party or anything
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: like that. There is only time to be bitter. It
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: is something that has to be done, and there was
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: any other way to do it but through me. Actually,
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: I used to rely on other people to help me
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: to fight my kids, to write so because I couldn't
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: even write properly, you understand, I used to have to
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: rely on in me to actually read some of the
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: stuff with me and try to explain to me to
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: me about some of these issues. And I said to myself,
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: you know what, if I'm going to prove that I'm innocent,
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: I cannot be really, I can't expect to rely on
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: these people to do something for me that I should
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: be doing for myself. And so that's when I start
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: to actually get books. I started to like when I
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: passed my GD because that's where I get my ged
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: college course. Who was thereby taking out the college course
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: the prison system. So what I did when I work
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: in the general library, I used to study, do my
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: own independent study insiety or starty read books, all different
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: books anxiety and educate myself in the general library because
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: I realized that I was on a mission and I
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: can it is no time for to be bitter, to
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: carry any animasity, because all I was going to do
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: is defeat the whole purpose, Because why would why should
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: I consprail with something that I already have, my dear,
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: but I didn't if I was already doing time for
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: something I didn't do, So why would I choose to
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: hay taut to to be bita when it's not gonna
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: help me. You're not gonna cause me more harmran anything else.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: I didn't not have any time for that.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: But you realize that is a very advanced spiritual practice
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: almost and it's so extraordinary for me and I think
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: many others who are listeners and fans of the show.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: It's really powerful to hear you and others who've been
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: through this talk about that, because I've never been through
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: anything vaguely resembling the stuff that you've been through. But
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: I think it's good for you to know, and I
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: hope you know that it's so inspiring, you know, to
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: be able to take what you're saying and try to
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: incorporate that into daily life and take a more you know,
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: zen for lack of a better word, approach to the
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: life's daily problems. And so I appreciate you sharing that
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: you know personally, and I'm sure there's a lot of
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: people who will were able to draw and have a
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: happier day or week or life as a result of
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: hearing your voice. I think that's that's really an amazing
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: it's phenomenal. There came a point when you were eligible
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: for parole. Yes, at this point you had contacted the
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: Innocence Project by now, but you hadn't heard back yet
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: as to whether the case had been or had you.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Never interacting like writing comic expanded me about the case
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: and so forth. And the evidence that been Actually took
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: a while for them to discover any evidence in my key,
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: because at first I said the evidence could not be found,
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: and it was after Jim Dwyer wrote an article about it,
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: because during that time, this guy here, he was just
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: he was in the Bronx Alan Newton had a problem
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: finding his evidence.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: Yes, I did.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: And then eventually they went back ten years later and
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: found the evidence in the exact place where it was
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: ten yure earlier. So so what Jim did he combined
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: both cases unsure the problem of finding the any evidence
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: that would exconerate inn send people. So after the article
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: is the DNA evidence was eventually found.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Jim Dwyer, for those of you who haven't read
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: his stuff, is a fantastic investigative reporter in New York.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: And this is not atypical, right the Innocence Project, Before
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: we take a case, we have to find out, we
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: have to do the research to find it if there's
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: evidence that so that we can help. So you were
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: sort of in between, but you had hoped that the
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: Innocence Project might take your case exactly. But you also
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: had another option, right, which is that your parole was
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: coming up. But you took a very principled stand at
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: this point in time, which is I think a hard
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: one for some people to understand, because you literally had
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: at a certain point an option of getting out of
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: prison if you would have done certain things. Yes, but
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: you refused.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: That well, Jason, the part of what is there for
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: people who committed their crime? And why would I go
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: to a board to admit there to show remorse for
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: something that I know I didn't coming.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: When you would you refuse to even go to the
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: prole board. Yes, right, and that's again that's a that's
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: a heavy thing, I think for a lot of you.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: For me, it's amazing because people would think, well, you
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: got to get out of prison. I got to get
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: out of here, right, But you were not going to
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: do it. You're not going to admit to really a brutal,
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: terrible crime exactly.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: And then that would just subject me to ridis as
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: a sex offender. And I told you that, but I
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: would be dictated when one way to go and when
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: to go to bed I went to sleep or something
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: like that.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: So it would be like being in prison on the exactly,
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: and you were going to stand and fight for what
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: was writing. But I mean spending the rest of your.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Life in prison, spend the rest of my life. It's
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: incredible because I would be a free money insided and
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: I would if I had to come out here.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's almost like a double penalty. But Reginald
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: chose to take the other option and I and I
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: can certainly, as I said, I can relate to that.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: I think it's it's almost like a Sophie's choice, right,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: you have two options and they're both bad. One is
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: you admit guilt in essence.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't think Regie actually to admit guilt because
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: his law you had written PaperWorks to the board professing
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: his innocence, proclaiming is innocence than everything, right, So I
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: guess that's play a factor in his release too in
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: two thousand and four.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: But did he have to register as a sex offender
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: and all that stuff? Yes, if he was innocent, he
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: wouldn't have to register exactly right, so you know. And
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: the other problem with that is, of course, if you
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: accept those conditions or terms what everyonet to call it,
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: you forego any opportunity to sue for your wrongful conviction. Right,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: you have to sign those rights away essentially, So it's
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: a very very difficult decision to have to make. And
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: what happened had you eventually when your.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: Freedom conditional release came up for me to be released,
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: this is when all he had to do was just
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: sign up paper and walk out. But again that would
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: have subjected me to register again as a sex offender,
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: and I refuse to sign those paper. So ten years
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: early on, the parler would probably would have been paroled
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: had I gone to the BO and then five years
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: after my conditional release, and I signed a paper then
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: I would have to spend five extra year in prison.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: But I refuse to sign that paper, and I tell
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: myself that I was going to be free. I know
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: the TRUDEO was going to vindicate me sooner.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: Or later, and we know that it did. Bill, you
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: wouldn't be here now. But let's talk about that. So
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: the Innocence Project took your case and eventually twenty fourteen.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well I was during that time. I was I
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: had Belldock helping too with my case. He was doing
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: the part where there's no involvement of dating evidence or
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: anything like that. It was studying the police reports and
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: all these things, because that's when I started to write
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: everything about what I discovered, showing them what I've discovered
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: and showing that I did not comment the crime, that
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: there was a fabrication, and you know, showing the purports
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: and all these things.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: And Bell Doc again for those who may not know,
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: it's Myron Bell Doc.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: So he's a very respected criminal defense attorney in New
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: York and he had taken your case bono. Yes, right,
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: So now you have two very powerful weapons in your
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: arsenal all of a sudden right, it went from being
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: basically on your own, to be well, not basically totally
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: on your own, to having two great organizations advocating exactly
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: because it was clear to us at the Innocey's project
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: and also to Bell Doc and his friend that you
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: were an innocent man exactly. So how did it end up?
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: We heard about the terrible day when you were convicted,
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: We heard about the horrible day when you were arrested.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: I want to hear about the day when you were
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: exonerated and how did it get to that point and
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: what was that like?
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: Well, we had initially file emotion, the motion was denied
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: by Justice Sparker, and then we have to file emotion
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: to the Appalliate Court showing why the kid should have
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: been dismissed because of the fabrication and the late Britty
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: turned over that show that the kids was actually fabricated
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: against us. So did they put the second department looked
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: over the keys, took them like six months, six or
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: six months, and it came back and not only did
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: they dismiss the conviction, but they also dismiss the evidence
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: in that means againstans, showing that the report that should
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: have been turnover to us at trial. Was never turnover,
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: and that would show that the detectives and the witness
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: was not foot right with their allegation. They pretty much
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: fabricate the whole thing they did.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: I mean not even pretty much, just straight fabricated.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: The whole thing. So I normally call Kim. She was
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: a former correction officer. She would pay a pivotal part
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: in my keys because she used to help with like
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: getting information to the lawyers and so forth, like nothing
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: that would jeopard as her job or anything like that.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: I called a family member and they told me that
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: there was a decision right and I at first I
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: didn't know. They were hysterical, like crying on the phone
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: and everything. And I actually I even know how to
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: feel anymore. I just like, good, like you guys can cry.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: Let me look over the decision and everything and read
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: it over. I should have been like happy, excited and
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: everything like that. But there was no sense of excitement
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: because again earlier of what the lower court did, because
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: here is it, I hope was all the way to
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: the ceiling and they just knocked it all the way down.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: But that doesn't stop me from from hoping.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: But this family member. Who was it? Was it your
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: was it your mom or an uncle or who is
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: it that you spoke to?
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: It was a Kim uh, the farm of correction officer
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: that I was there. I spoke to her, but then
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: she had already retired from her job.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: So did you believe it?
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: You know what I was like, I got back something
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: that shouldn't have been taken away from you in the
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: first place. So it's not like it shouldn't have been
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: taken away from me.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: Of course, So you didn't have really a sense of joy.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: It wasn't the mirror image of the despair that you felt.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: It was more of a thing of just sort of
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: justice is done, and now let me move on with
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: my life exactly exactly, like a resolute kind of exactly exactly. Now,
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: let's get on to the other part of the story,
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: which is incredible, Right, let's talk about love. So Kim
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: is kind of an important figure in your story.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: So Kim was a correction officer in Green Correctional Facility,
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: and you developed a relationship with her, not a physical relationship,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: but sort of a connection exactly with her while you
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: were locked up there. Yes, and then that took on
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: a new meaning when you were released. Everton ended up
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: marrying Kim, who had been a correctional officer in the
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: prison in which he was incarcerated, which sounds like if
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: you put it in a movie, somebody would go, get
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: the fuck out of here. That's impossible, but it actually happened.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: How did that go down?
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: Well? When I was the fight in working on my case,
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: I worked a lot of library where she actually was
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: a supervising officer in that area. She used to work
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: a couple of days there and used to work in
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: the upfront where she would monitor telephone calls, and I
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: normally would call out to my lawyer. Then had this
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: lawyer who was actually represent in Kanna. I was axing
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: for her help, and I wanted her to actually have
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: other lawyers involve in the case. And I was trying
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: to her telling her I don't need sympathy, I need help,
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: you know, And I don't think I've been get enough help,
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: but I should be getting. And I think came over
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: her this conversation and she was like somewhat taken aback
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: because she said, Damn, this guy's actually innocent and shouldn't
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: be here. So I guess she developed some feelings there
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: for me then and then you know, and trying to
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: see what she could do to help while I was there,
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: you know, and then after I you know, because of
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: what she's done from over the years, and I, you know,
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: there was anybody at the time helping. I had no
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: support pretty much helping me. At that time. I was
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: everything was done on my own insiety. I have to
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: go to school and kid myself and study whatever I
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: need to be study. In other words, I was like
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: alone of fighting all these things. And then she came
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: along and tried to help, you know, play help in
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: the process, like can't help to contact lawyers, German suffordance
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: on so speak on my.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: Behalf, sort of like an angel in exactly exactly exactly.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: That's amazing. So and ultimately, you know, you resisted any
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: temptation to develop a physical Really I had to.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: I could not develop. Number One, I whispered her job.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: I whispect her as that person. I would not have
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: done anything to undermine her job.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: Right because she would have been in big trouble exactly.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: So there was nothing unbecoming inside or anything like that.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: Nothing right, And we know that that goes on in prison, right,
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of that. Yes, sure, but you but
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: you resisted, which is a you know, we talked about
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: it before. It's an incredible temptation. You've been alone for
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: over two decades now, but you resisted, which was again
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: a principled and intelligent and thoughtful and difficult thing to do.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: But the good news is that you eventually were released.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: She was really almost placed there as somebody to give
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: you that extra supported.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: Exactly to exactly I look at it in that sense.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: And so that was a great thing. And then ultimately
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: you were freed, and then you contacted her and a
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: relationship developed and which led to ultimately being married.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean because of what you have done too
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: for me too. I mean she was there when again
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: no one wasn't there ja when I was in the
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: bottom of the pit, understand. So I mean that's somebody
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: who I could never like break ties with. She embedded
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: a place in my heart at all time. It doesn't
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: matter where. She's always going to be in my heart,
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, and I would always do everything in my
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: poet to me the show that she's Okay.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean it's an incredible love story. It's an
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: amazing way to end. But I don't want to end
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: without going back to your time in prison. You mentioned
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: the education program in the prison, and I want to
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: talk about that because I think a lot of people
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: are skeptical, and there's some people out there who say, well,
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: why should we pay to educate guys in prison? We
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: don't pay enough money for the regular educ or whatever
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: they say, right, And I have a very different view
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: on it, not only from a public safety perspective, where
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: we know that men and women who've been through an
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: education program in prison when they come out are extremely
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: unlikely to reoffend. But how important was it to you
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: to have that education option or that education program available
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: to you in prison.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, it was very important that because if it
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: wasn't for that, who else would I have help to
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: educate myself? I mean, even though it was taken away
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: when I first got my ged, because again, I think
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: Governor Parteka was the government at that time, and I
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: get some of the public was probably sure the same
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: feelings that why should they talk have to be to
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: have to educate these people, you know, for you know,
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: when they are criminals, unsufford and so on. But they
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: have to realize too that these are the same people
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: who are going to come back and re into society,
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: So why not use it as a cost to help them?
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: Exactly. I think it's critically important that we provide this
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: option thanks to people, and it allows for a sense
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: of hope. And I know this from having spoken to
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: other exoneries who've been through it. I mean, even Jeff
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: Deskevic has been on the show. I mean he said
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: if not for that, he probably would have killed himself
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: in prison because he had nothing else. I'm glad we
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: brought that up. Now. We talked a bit earlier about
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: the things that you derived your inspiration from, right, and
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: you talked about some of the books and some of
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: the teachings that allowed you or that helped you, or
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: that inspired you to keep a positive attitude and to
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: be able to carry on day after day in this
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: miserable place, with the loneliness and the frustration and you
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: know all the other terrible things that come with being
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: in the max of security prison. It was really the
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: books that did it, wasn't it.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: Well, I the books did it. And plus I know
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: that I want to be of help to life, to
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: humanity as a whole, and I know I could not
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: just sit there and those focus exclusively on my case.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: What can I do in the mean? And while I
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: was working on my kids, it was something that I
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: had to do. I couldn't just like make it be
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: my number one, so I have to say say no
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: what during that case, I read especially at mansurcial Meaning
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: by Victor frank Kill. Victor frank Kill may referenced that
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: it wasn't a condition that kills him, but the lack
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: of hope. And I have experienced the same thing inside
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: that place where I was, because I've seen a lot
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: of guys inside here, Jason. I mean a lot of
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: guys just like after being hit so many times at
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: the board, just gave up and their system just started
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: a fight against them. They have to be put on medication.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: Some of them just checking to hospital ward and they
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: just went down and just out. I've experienced so many times.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: I've experienced this particular guy whose very own immune system,
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: Jason eats away at his own body because of lack
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: of hope. I've have been been hit so many times
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: at the Board, and I was so privileged to spoke
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: speak to that guy one day in the library and
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: I explained to you that and give telling my situation
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: and how I will never give up hope and never
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: even despite it being hit so many times, that deny
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: so many times that the power board not to give
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: up hope, to keep fighting, keep fighting because eventually you
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: will be released. And like actually a few probably a
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: year or so later, he was actually released. You know,
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: it's serious, I mean, and these are some of the
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: things that I have seen. And as a result, I
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: told myself, Jason, that I could not sit there and
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: feel any pretty ported despite of what happened to me,
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: despite of the denial of times from the other course
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: and everything, I did not allow that to stop me
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: at first. At first, Yes, I feel dawn when I
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: first get hit, done something like when I was denied
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: and all these things, but I didn't dwell on it. Jason.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: The problem is a lot of us dwell too much
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: when something is done. Now we think it's wrong, do
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: something about it. Don't just sit about and try to
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: be angry, are bit or anything, because that's not going
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: to do anything to help find another road that you
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: could go and tackle that problem and get it out
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: of the way.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: So if anybody out there is think about having a
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: petty party, they shouldn't invite you because you're not No,
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: I'm not coming.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: I don't want to hear it.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: You're not coming. But now that's amazing because you actually
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: had a very profound effect on this man who was
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: giving up hope, and you were able to snapping back
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: into reality. And then next thing, you know, a year later,
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: it's like it's like a miracle exactly.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: And you know what, And that's the thing about working way.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: I work boat in the general library under the library,
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: and I was able to meet a lot of people
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: who have been have gone to the board so many
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: times and get hit at the board so many times,
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: and I have I was there to like just give
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: them some hope, like speak to them about listen, look
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: look at my condition. For example. I mean I didn't
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: commit a crime. I'm here suffering as if I did
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: a crime. But at the same time, I'm not giving
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: up hope because I know I would be vindicated one day.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: And the same thing, that principle that I use to
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: help me to maintain my mind my sonny inside, you
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: can't use the same principle. I doesn't have to be
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: in prison. The same principle kill be applied. Audio by
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: anyone in any situation.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: Well, that is a message that is as good as
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: any that we could possibly share. And I know it's
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: going to help me and so many others to get
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: through things that we're all going to go through at
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: different times. I do want to just give a quick
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: plug because Everton has been doing some great work helping
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: out risk youth and working with them, but also going
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: and doing public speaking on a professional basis, and so
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: I want to share if it's sorry with you, I
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: want to share your email address so that people can
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: reach out. You speak at schools, at colleges, corporations, basically
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: anywhere that somebody needs to hear this message of tragedy, triumph,
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: and I guess it's optimism, positivity, and strength. I mean
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: that's really what it is. And so everything in your
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: email address.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: Is make a difference and live at gmail dot com.
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's kind of perfect. Make a difference and live
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. A more appropriate email address I
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: couldn't imagine for a guy like you, So reach out,
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: and he's a guy you really want to get to
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: know better than you can even just on the podcast. Everton.
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: It's been a real pleasure and a privilege having you
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: on the show. Is there anything else that you want
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: to say? Or we sign on.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: Well, it doesn't matter where we are in this world,
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: it don't matter what we are going through. We must
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: always understand that there is always a way out. And
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: sometimes the problem is that we tend to look too
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: much for guidance from our five senses. We have to
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: learn to go beyond those five senses because example, when
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: I was going through what I was going through, I
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: was in prison, for example, and I if I was
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: just focusing on my condition, my current situation, I would
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: stay depressed and all these things would have kicked in
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: hopelessness and our dispair would have kicked in. But I
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: realized that there's another side to the five senses that
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: the five senses doesn't understand, I will never understand. And
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: that's where we have to learn to dwell in that
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: spiritual aspect of who we are, because these are the
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: things that help us to elevate any mountain, gods, amount,
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: any problem. And we have to remember that do not
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: just dwell on your five sentences and what you're going through.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: Don't focus on those senses. Of course there they are
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: beneficial tools, but they're not the moving fact that they're
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: not the determined facts in our life. There should be
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: just a vehicle that determines that that only take away
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: and stick instruction from us the spiritual side of who
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: we are. Remember that we have to know how to
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: steer it on, how to guide it. All.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: Right, I think that says it all. This has been
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: a very inspiring episode of wrongful conviction and it's all
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: because of you everything. Thank you again for being here.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: Wish you all the best, and I'm looking forward to
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: seeing you and watching you do more and share more
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: wisdom with everybody you want to thank you. Don't forget
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: to give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: Podcast.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one