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high-achieving woman's guilt trap · From 9 to Mom

• Catie: Welcome back to From Nine to Mom. Danielle: Where we discuss balancing the nine to five hustle with the beautiful chaos that we call motherhood. And today we have a really fun topic. We have a great guest today. Jordan is with us. She is a licensed metal mental health counselor, registered art therapist, and the founder of Mosaic Therapy in Miami. So for the past eight years, she's worked with teen girls and women, especially the ambitious, high-achieving ones. Who look like they have it all together, even when that's definitely not how it feels on the inside. And I think we can all relate a little bit to that. Her work focuses on confidence, self-worth, and the pressure we put on ourselves to constantly do more and be more. So today we're talking about where that pressure actually comes from, what it's costing us, and how to build a life that actually feels as good as it looks on the outside. So, Jordan, thank you so much for being here with us today. Jordyn: Of course, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Catie: Yeah, we've been so excited and we really only met you a short period of time. So we have so many questions that we're diving in. But we first have to congratulate you. You are how far along now in pregnancy? my gosh. Twenty Jordyn: Today 24 weeks Danielle: Wow. Catie: four weeks in the sweet spot and running a business, becoming a mom. That sounds crazy. How are things going? Jordyn: They're going well, you know, it's great experience. It's very, I feel like what I'm experiencing now is very relevant to the topics we're covering today. I mean, it's hard trying to do it all, be the best mother you can, planning on being the best mother you can. I'm learning that with pregnancy, there's, plan for the pregnancy and then you're learning about that process. But then it very quickly becomes planning for when the baby is actually here. And, you know, while I've worked a lot with and families, it's definitely, It's definitely impacting a shift as far as in my practice. It's changing my perspective a little bit, becoming a mother myself. Catie: Absolutely. So what has been the toughest part for you with like baby planning? Jordyn: Just all of the information, there's so many choices. It's, you know, I've been talking to friends about being a carrier and it's like, there's so many different kinds and so many choices. And so I think it's training it in is for me at least, learn, you know, realizing like, okay, there's so many choices and there's not necessarily a perfect choice, you know, that everyone can attest to, that you make the best choice you can, you adapt where you need to. And I think that is what I anticipate for when the baby comes as well, is being a high performing person myself and speaking to high performing women, it's like we want to get it right the first time. But I think with children with living beings, there is this need to be adaptable. while you try to do the best you can, realizing that it's a learning process and that we're adapting and that if we don't get it right the first time, that we keep trying other methods and other ways. Danielle: Yeah, that's so true. Catie: Absolutely. Danielle: And it's good that you're learning that now because Katie and I have talked about this on multiple occasions where it's like, when do you learn to stop taking advice? When do you learn to stop going down the rabbit hole of Googling things? And I think, you know, every child's different, every pregnancy is different, every postpartum is different. So giving yourself a little bit of leeway in terms of figuring out what's right for you is definitely a smart choice. So I feel like you're ahead of the curve. Catie: Yeah. Jordyn: Thank you. I'm getting there. know, say, what's good enough? Danielle: Yeah. Catie: Right. Absolutely. It's so hard. I remember being so overwhelmed with like the simplest things. And I think the first thing I ever researched was car seats. And I was like, What what am I even looking at? Like I didn't understand. I'm like, you know, you're just like I I think I was maybe twenty weeks along and I'm like, I need the perfect car seat. I need the safest one, all this stuff. And then I was like, Mm, let's just get this one. It converts into the most things and the Jordyn: you you Danielle: Yeah. Catie: You do all your research and, you know, all of that. But congratulations. We're so excited for you and can't wait to see how everything unfolds through the rest of the year for you. But will we like let's go back. Danielle gave a quick introduction, but will you give us a little bit of your background? you know, we talked about art therapy, all that. How did you get to where you are today? Jordyn: Sure, so it's process. I think this will tie in some later questions too, but throughout my life, you know, I put pressure on myself to achieve and to do well and to perform highly. And it took a period of my early 20s break after undergrad, took some time to explore and allow myself to have experiences that led me into ultimately choosing to go back to school for art therapy. And even that school with the process of course, but then getting out of school and I did a lot of exploring within the field as far as working with different populations and trying to gain as many different experiences as I could. And the art therapy evolved into using it more in workshops, And then my private practice came about during COVID and really it was, you know, an unfortunate time for lot of people, but a serendipitous time to be starting a mental health practice because some of the people needed it. And also I was in a really unique position being in Sun Valley, Idaho at the time, small community. were only so many therapists, they were flowing. And so there was a need and overflow for other therapists. And so it set me up for a really successful time. And When I was there, was working with populations and then I met my husband and we realized that with getting married and getting ready to start a family of our own, we wanted to be in a bigger city where there was more diversity, a little bit more opportunity, opportunities to travel for different types of schools, different people. And we chose Miami. We love the heat, we love the water, and there's a college here. And I realized with my practice, it would also open me up to being able to really focus on where my path with working with teen girls, young adult women, young professionals with the university here and people coming here and close to that. There's a big population. Catie: Absolutely. And I think who doesn't love Miami, first of all? But those are cool reasons Danielle: Yeah. Catie: that why you picked that. It's awesome though that you that's kind of how you came to that. And so I know you work with so many different groups. And we thought one when we first met you, one of the things Danielle and I related to obviously was we like to say we're high we're high achieving, high functioning women. And what kind of like drew you to working with this specific group or or just feeling drawn to those that you feel like people are missing about this category of people. Jordyn: Yeah, definitely. think, you know, I think that this populate resonates. I think I can relate to it. Similar to of you, I would describe myself as high achieving, high performing, thriving individual, I think is sometimes a nice way to say it. know, women who strive are ambitious or working towards something. And I think, you know, I in your last question where, you know, high school, college, you know, I getting burnt out and after college, some time off and recognize that there was beauty, but challenge in taking these spaces. recognizing you don't have to have it all figured out. You don't have to be perfect. But then also with that, there's this double side of the coin where it's one thing to recognize that, one thing to internalize it, and another thing not to necessarily be seen, where people may see you as having it all together. Their automatic thought is like, she's good. She doesn't need help. She's got it all. Danielle: Uh-huh. Jordyn: Whether it's she works out, she's doing well in school, she has the job, she has the life. people don't always see what's underneath because I think as striving and aspiring women, we do a really good job of covering it up, right? And so I think it, my own experiences led me to recognize that there was this gentle space needed for these women to be seen and that there could be benefit to providing them with a space for gentleness for themselves and someone else giving it to them. And someone who can recognize like, you don't have to stop striking, you don't have stop being ambitious, but we just need to reevaluate the way that we're these strengths. Danielle: Yeah, that makes sense. And I think as you're saying it, even I'm thinking about like our age, right? The generation meeting KD or moms, we're going in, I'm turned 40, talking to all my friends, and we're like, how did we get there? Like what happened? All the things that told us like this is what success looks like, being driven, being ambitious, going for your goals, having all these your pieces put together. Like those are things that were so instilled at us for so long that now that we're like, We want to slow down, like it feels we feel guilt or like we're doing something wrong. And thinking about how if we had learned that at a younger age with the group that you're talking to, we would give ourselves a lot more room to breathe and our situations would be different now. But like, at what point do you think really the things that we think are Jordyn: Right. Thank Danielle: our strengths that we always like you go into interviews with that like You are Catie: Yeah. Danielle: this makes me a great hire, this makes me a great mom. At what point do these things start working against us? Jordyn: I think in several ways, there several signifiers. think when our strengths become deeply tied into who we are, where it stops being what we as far as I work really hard versus I am a hard worker. two different things. And while it's good to recognize yourself as someone who works hard, when that's who you identify with, it's hard to then rationalize taking a step back because that's so innate to your identity, right? And you're trying to demonstrate that to others. And so when it becomes less about what you do and more about who you are. So I am a runner versus, or I'm passionate about exercise versus I get someone who exercises, then it becomes pressurized. event and again tied to identity. not sure if that's clear, but it's one thing to do the things and it be part of your behavior and another thing for it to be tied into who you are. So then it becomes, if I don't do this, who am I? You lose that sense of identity. And then I also think it's when it's tied to rules. I love this. There's this kind of like way of thinking about it where you have a strength that you know, for instance, responsibility. I'm a responsible person. And then the rule becomes, I always have to show up for others. If I don't show up for others, I'm not responsible. And then you look at the cost, like what the detriment is. Cause I think that's one of the signifiers of like, this isn't working. And the cost is like, I'm resentful of others. I don't want to show up. I feel tired. I feel like I'm not doing it well enough. But then you, you know, you look, you then evaluate, sorry, how that's not working for you. But then, you know, go on and look at the value and what's underlying that. It's like, Okay, it's important for me to show up for people. I'm a responsible person. But then how can I still hold this value true without it costing me, without it becoming this rigid rule that I live by? And so noticing in yourself when it's causing detriment, when it's causing stress, resentment, when it's leading to feelings of not being good enough, and when it's tied to these rigid rules of like all or nothing, if I'm not always responsible, then who am I? I'm nobody, I'm failing. Catie: I think that's so true to any new mom, probably just related so much to what you just said, because you do give up a lot of those things when you become a mom because you're making room for like the new part of you, right? Like your new part of your being is being a mom and trying to figure out what type of mom you're gonna be and making those new rules for yourself about like time commitments to your baby and you know, all the things that go into like new motherhood and it's hard to not let them become your identity because then you lose the other pieces and you're like, wait, Jordyn: All right. Catie: I used to be a runner, but I can't sign up for half marathons anymore because I don't have time. This is not me, by the way, just as an example. but like, you know, you can't maybe an example of that is me. Like I used to play soccer. I played in college. I used to play in women's leagues and like it's just not part of the time frame right now. And it was a huge, huge piece of who I am. And I try to find ways to like tie it in, but it's a piece that's got in lost the past few years. I don't know that it's making me feel like a failure because it's it was a hobby, but like it that I think the theory applies to other things. Jordyn: It's hard. And I guess I appreciate what you're saying because it leads into one of my favorite theoreticians is Lisa D'Amour. She's a therapist. She specializes in working with teen girls and with parents. And she uses this great analogy of our confidence is like a lake and estuaries feed into it. And to your point, like soccer was an estuary. for you at one time where it was feeding into this lake, it was a part of your identity, it was one aspect. And I think with motherhood, and I imagine, and I'll have to remind myself of this in six months, but there are these different estuaries feeding into identity, and we need them at different times. having many different estuaries allows us to pull from different places to form our identity rather than just one place. If motherhood and being a good mother is the only feeder. then that's a lot of pressure that we put on ourselves to and to our identity and to being good. But if we have these other estuaries and then we can pull from those as well and we're gaining confidence and self-assuredness from those other pieces and they're all contributing. And maybe at some point the estuaries dry up and they come back like to your point with soccer, maybe one day you'll coach soccer for your kids and that'll be an extra. Danielle: Already done. Catie: Just Yeah. Jordyn: No, but think they they contribute at times. Danielle: I keep thinking Catie: I didn't Danielle: of the movie Inside Out. Have you seen this movie? Jordyn: I have, you know, as a therapist, feel like I should have seen it, but, I have clients that reference it. It sounds fantastic, but I haven't seen it. Danielle: What you just said is like you're gonna have a kid, Catie: You have to, you have to. Danielle: you're gonna watch inside out, like it's inevitable. And Jordyn: Yeah. Danielle: it is but watching it, and there's two of two of them, watching it like you start like crying yourself because you're like, my god, this is exactly how like it's all about she has these different facets of who make her her and at different and this goes back to the teen part too, like at different phases of your life, right, things change and it's not that the family isn't important anymore, but your friends become a little bit Jordyn: Great. Danielle: more influential and feed that like sense of being, but the other part is still there. and you know, then you become a mom and it comes back in, but I'm laughing, thinking like, my gosh, this is inside out, but it does make me think Catie: I can't believe you just pulled that out. That was amazing. And Jordan, you have to watch it because Inside Out Two, she's becoming a teenager and like they introduce new emotions because and it's so funny for the adult. Danielle: It's hilarious and so real. Like so real. Like anxiety and you're going through like other changes too, right? Like your hormones are changing and things like it's just such a cute movie. You would what Jordyn: my God. Danielle: you just talked about is the very adult version of Inside Out, but it's all I can think about. And it really is making me think about, you know, having a daughter, right? 'Cause sometimes like I'm gonna be real. It was this Tuesday, I was with two of my like most h like Jordyn: you you Danielle: Very high achieving women in my life. Like, and we're just sitting there being like, Why is this so hard? And I was in tears saying exactly like what you were like talking about. Like, this is who I was. And like, if I'm not that, then who am I? And I just feel like I'm failing all the time because I'm not perfect at all the thing. Like, I've added so many things and I'm not able to be the best at all of them anymore. But on paper, they're like, But Danielle, you're on paper, like, you look like everything's like. Amazing. And I'm like, yeah, because I'm paying I'm putting that we put that face on as women. And it I'm trying to Jordyn: Right. Danielle: think about at what age and having a daughter, like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to set that example for her because I don't want her to feel the way that I feel about all the like what that looks like. But how do you like begin to actually now we're recognizing it, but like how do you begin to actually separate it and model it in your life? Jordyn: Absolutely. so I'll use an example. If you think about it, a lot of times when we're around kids, we're using our phones. We're telling them not to use their phones. But then we're using them. We're modeling that behavior. So then they're like, well, why can't I'm sure. I hear it with parents that I work with and obviously they don't have a teenager yet. He's still very much developing. the rationale is like, see you doing it, then why can't I? And it's similar with that theory with confidence and with being driven and with being an overachiever or work over performer. If they see you doing this, you might tell them like, hey, it's okay, take a rest day or can skip practice tonight. You seem really tired. We need to listen to our bodies. But if they don't see you modeling that behavior, as far as if they see you tired, they hear you fatigued and you're like, I'm going to make myself go to the gym. It's like, mom's telling me it's OK for me not to work out or not just go to practice. she is not, she's still going. She's still showing up and going to the gym, even though she's really tired. And so it's like that dissonance between what you're telling them and how you're acting. And so it's the behavioral piece where it's like, you know, the behavior isn't demonstrating the rule or the, or the grace. think that's a better way of phrasing it. It's not demonstrating the grace that you're, you're suggesting to them. And so one way to do it is by modeling, by demonstrating these things, by noticing when we're it ourselves, where it's like, you know, I know I'm guilty of it right now. I told you guys I'm doing the business. I'm doing art. You know, I'm getting baby ready. trying to take care of dog and the house and all these different things. And it's like, okay, I noticed I'm pushing myself too much and I'm getting to my limit. And it's like, okay, what ways can I maybe bring back? I'm getting this podcast today, we're doing this podcast today with you guys, how can I embody what I'm talking about? And so it's living and behaving in a way that demonstrates these values of taking rest, that you're still good enough even if you don't go to the gym. you're still valuable even if you have to take a sick day from work. And so think that's one of the big ways. And then another one is giving them opportunities to have different estuaries. so giving them responsibility as they're growing up, where it's like responsibility is a great way to build confidence because it allows them to feel fulfilled. They may not love chores, but if you give them a chore, it's like, I did that, I accomplished it. you know, that gives them a sense of responsibility, taking care of the dog. But then also, you know, there are grades and, you know, we don't want to all the emphasis on grades, but, you know, you did, they can have an opportunity to do well at that, or maybe it's soccer or, you know, they're a good friend, but they have these different outlets that they're pulling from and it's not just one thing. And so then it becomes hopefully less pressurized from them pulling from one estuary and they're able to pull from many. But then also it's that moderation and that balance, right? Of like letting them know, okay, we have a lot of estuaries we're pulling from if we need to focus on one more than the other. And that's again, demonstrating and modeling and talking them through it and being curious, being curious about their experience as far as, you a lot of times as a therapist and I imagine as parents too, we tell them these, you know, we give them this grace. As far as it's okay if you don't show up, it's okay if you don't do this, but then being curious about them too, like what is it that makes you feel really stressed about not going to practice today? What about it makes you feel guilty? Where is that coming from? And so being investigative with them so they can also learn to come to these conclusions themselves, like, I feel guilty because I won't be a good soccer player if I miss one practice. And it's like, you know, rather than jumping in, no, no, no, you'll still be a good soccer player. Why do you feel that way? Like where do you think your skills are gonna go? Like, do you think that maybe there's a benefit to taking a day off and maybe that could actually build your skills? And so asking questions and being curious of their process too. Catie: It's so interesting to think of it that way. And I am laughing because I'm like thinking back to like growing up and you know I think it's just super relative to me because like missing practice or this, like, you know, such rigorous programs, but like it's so funny because people were not having these conversations that we're having right now with like Danielle: Okay. Catie: about this stuff. Like it just didn't exist, and I'm so happy it does now, and we're able to like talk. Today about this because I just know there's so many women that are feeling this way, especially when it comes to like holding on to all of it. Like we feel like we're the ones that hold on to all the emotions in the household and we're the ones that need to set the example and you know, hit the expectations and whether it's at work or at home. But I guess our question is like, why do we feel so much guilt? Jordyn: you Catie: around the way like the way we handle all those things. Danielle: Yeah, like you give yourself grace because you know you like, you know what, I'm not gonna go to the gym today. I'm exhausted, I'm not gonna make dinner, I'm ordering it in. But then someone says, Well, I'm just gonna be honest, like we're trying to save money. Should we really be ordering food in? And you wanna be like, Well, are you gonna cook? 'Cause I'm tired. But like then you feel guilty that you Yeah, like now you're feeling guilty that you didn't like Catie: No, that's literally my life every day. Danielle: it just why? It's like a spiral. Jordyn: I think to your point, it is innate to women, I think more so than men. I think that's fair to say where we are traditionally and biologically caregivers. And so I think that there is that innate that like, have to care for my community. I have to care for my children, my husband and the homemaker. And again, that maybe looks different this day and age. Maybe it's your home, you you're pulling from different pieces, not just. But, that also contributes to this enormous responsibility field because we're doing a lot of different things. But I think there's an innate piece of having to care and that being innate to who we are. So tied again into identity and that creating guilt, like if I'm not living my value of caregiving or living my duty as caregiving, then I'm letting everyone down. But I think it's a reframe as far as like addressing the guilt. I think it's something that we all have to sit with, like, that's uncomfortable. And so I think it goes with like, have to notice the guilt when it happens, sit with it, it's uncomfortable. And then also practice reframing, okay, you know, we all know this, but it's like, when there's too much on our plates, like we can't do everything well. And it's like going to the gym might push you a little bit too hard. You might get an injury, you're not showing up the way you want to. And so recognizing like when we do need to pull back, sitting with the guilt when we do, and also trying to give ourselves a reframe of like, okay, I'm not going to the gym. I'm going to make a really good dinner tonight. I'm going to be present with that. But tomorrow we're going to take out. I'm going to go to the gym. Like there's a give and a take. so figuring out where you can have these gives and takes and how we can sit with the guilt. Because again, it's like we get conditioned to these things, the pattern. It's like we don't, if we don't do everything perfectly, then we feel guilty and we don't want to sit with the guilt. And so we keep trying to strive and avoid doing that. And so it's part of it is sitting with that discomfort. And then there was something else I was going to say as part of it's tied to identity. I may have lost it. I'm sorry. Danielle: This is mombrain. It's happening. It's happening and it's Catie: This Danielle: okay. We accept it. Because it happens to us all day, every day. Catie: But it's scary when you f when it starts happening the first few times, you're like, Wait, I really can't Danielle: What is happening? Catie: but th I that goes with like high performing women. Like you forget things and you're like, I've never forgotten something. I've been like that before too, and I just mid conversation I'm like, wait. Jordyn: I don't know where it was important, I'm sure. Catie: Right. It was gonna be profound. Danielle: Yeah. You'll you'll remember it as we're talking about something else because I feel like even as you're talking, this is how sick we are. This like not that it's sick, but this is how messed up it is and ingrained in us. As you're speaking, I'm thinking about how you're saying, like, not going to the gym. I'm like, I need to go to the gym. And I'm thinking about I signed up for a gym class this tonight. Like it's a dance class. Let's be real. I like to dance. Like that's what mak makes my mental health and it's physical activity that I haven't done in Way too long having a baby three and a half years ago is not an excuse anymore. But I've been feeling guilty trying to figure out how I'm gonna go to this class all day because I have work and then we have sports and then I have bedtime and then I like if I go to the gym, I will be make putting out my family. So I feel guilty about that. But if I don't go, I know that I'm not taking care of myself the way I would want my other people in my life to take care of themselves. And I just like It's just such a hard thing to put into practice to sit in guilt and like let it be. Jordyn: It totally is. that actually reminded me of what I was thinking was that as caregivers, we have to take care of ourselves. And that rationale is so hard to justify and put into practice in real life. But it's true. you how do we show up in our work or in our for our families or for our friends if we're not taking care of ourselves? And so I think that goes with the reframe where it's like, again, harder in practice than it is for saying it. But it's you you're going to this dance class, you you lit up when you talked about it sounded so fun. It was like, wow, that does sound really great. I hope she goes. But it seems like something that feeds your soul that you need. And I maybe like trying with the guilt, like challenging it where it's like, actually, like this is making me a better mom. Like I'm gonna be a better mom going to this dance class because I'm living my value of exercising and of movement and like joy. And my kids need to see that. They need to see that model as far as like the joy and happiness that dance brings me. It's part of like my soul. And so trying to reframe it and challenge the guilt along with sitting with it at times. And again, it's hard to rationalize, but I think it's breaking those patterns, those barriers that gets us to feeling better and okay and the guilt subsiding in some cases. Danielle: Yeah, like you just telling me to do that in my head made me feel better about it. I'm like, wait, like Daisy was so excited the last time I Catie: Well, like the reassurer. Danielle: went to dance. She asks to see the video. She wants me to teach her. Like it's a whole thing. So maybe putting it that way. And that's kind of like if you are a for the listeners out there or the young moms or even whoever's listening, right? And they're at a point where they're like feeling this as we're talking through it. And they're like, Listen, I'm someone who really looks good on paper. Like my resume. My GPA, my all of this looks amazing on paper, but I am feeling like t I'm at my limit. Like where would you tell them to start? Jordyn: I would tell them to start and it's counterintuitive, but not jumping right into changing, not start piling on like, well, I need to work out more. I should get more sleep. I need to do this, that, which I think high performers typically do because we want to do well and we want to do well life, self care and rest. And, we need to be careful that in evaluating those changes that we're not then turning helpful change into another performance or another. measurable performance. So instead, would use the idea of the curiosity that we talked about with teens, where it's like being curious about yourself. Like, what does it mean about me if I skip the workout class or if I do go to the workout class? Or what does it mean about me if I cancel brunch on Sunday? It should be a fun thing, but I'm really dreading it. And then also noticing, like, where is this dread coming from? Like, why am I dreading brunch on Sunday? It should be fun. so Danielle: Mm-hmm. Jordyn: noticing and being curious and asking yourself these questions to evaluate and understand where your sensations, like I think it's a somatic piece of like, okay, I'm noticing my body that like every time I think about brunch, like my chest is tightening. I feel like dread, I get tired. And so it's noticing those physical sensations because often our bodies do give us signals before our minds do. And so being aware of those and then also asking questions like, why am I feeling this way? Like what emotion could I tie to brunch? Okay, that's that it's dread and fatigue. Like, where is that coming from? And so being curious, noticing and starting with that. And once the discovery happens, beginning to adapt and make changes based on how you're feeling. And so just being curious initially. Catie: I think it's so important though, because I've done this so many times where I'm like, okay, I'm gonna start a new workout plan. I'm gonna start decluttering the house. I'm gonna get the kids on the right sleep schedule. And like I'm gonna start all of it on Monday. And that's what I tend to do to myself. And it it doesn't ever stick, let's be honest. Danielle: I no, and if you look at our chat GPTs, Katie and I were literally laughing about this earlier, like the amount of things that like I put into Chat GPT, like I wanna do this, I wanna do this, I wanna do this, like even to the point where my chat GPT is like, Daniel, you cannot do 45,000 new things this week, like focus on one because you're like you Catie: Yeah. Danielle: can't. And but it's like now we have all these tools and resources to help us be more productive, which Jordyn: right. Danielle: like we don't need. We don't need to be more productive, but in our mind. It's just like such a Catie: Yeah. Danielle: challenging thing to to put to the side. Jordyn: Totally, and that actually introduces another question that I would encourage women or even men if they're in this position of, you know, I'm feeling really overwhelmed. I would encourage differentiating between productivity and joy. Like, why am I going to brunch? Is it because it makes me feel productive? Is it because it's checking the box of being a good friend? Or is it that I really am excited and feeling joyful about connecting with my friends? And so analyzing the joy versus the productivity. I think about you again, like lighting up when you're talking about dance and it's like, wow, that sounds like really joyful and fun versus like if you had been kind of downcast and you're like, I have to go to dance tonight. It's this class. And it's like, that sounds productive and like it's checking Danielle: Yeah. Jordyn: up, bringing you joy and happiness. And so being curious about joy versus productivity. Catie: I think it's it is because like you can get in such a mode of like productive like pedal to the metal, especially like with kids and you know, like with you dealing with the pr you have so many boxes to check, getting ready to give birth, right? And like there's so many things and you just get so Danielle: Mm. Catie: stuck in the checklists. So it can be really difficult. But I did want to ask now because of the type of work that you do. putting yourself into the mom shoes now. How has like this new chapter really changed the way you're working with your clients or just some of the ways you see things? Jordyn: Sure. I think one big aspect I'm looking forward to, and I'm not quite there yet, but I think working with kids, there is always this, and I'm totally willing to acknowledge it to parents and to whoever I work with, but it's like, you know, I haven't been a parent. know, I'm coming into that now, but I'm excited to be able to Truly, I guess, relate to them and be able not to commiserate, you know, obviously within boundaries and appropriateness, but be able to be a part of the club, I guess, because I think it's hard being a therapist who works with kids and teens when you don't have them. I mean, you have this nice distance, this ability to reflect, you're kind of in between ages where you're definitely older than them. You have this seniority. and you're not a parent yet, so you get to navigate and walk this cool line and like, you're an older, you know, you're an adult, but you're not a parent. Like you still have like this, I don't know, maybe I'm just imagining at a cool. But Catie: No, I totally get what you mean. Yeah. Danielle: Ha ha. Jordyn: with becoming a parent, there is like this ability to get like a buy-in with parents, a respect, like you're in it too, like kind of you're in the trenches, you're Catie: Yeah. Jordyn: where, I relate, we're relay that to parents where it's like, I get it, like it's easy for me to say I'm on the outside, like I can give you these ideas, these theories, can give you techniques, but I'm not living your everyday. And so I'm looking forward to getting to live the everyday and get to put some of these things into practice and be able to better relate to the parents that I do work with. Danielle: Huge when Catie: Yeah. Danielle: someone you're working with, like and you're talking, like I respect people who are experts, regardless of whether they're parents or not, because the amount of time and energy you put into learning is totally valid. But it is so nice as like a mom when you're talking to another mom about the whole balancing act and all these things, like you're already feeling it now. Like you're plan you are being a mom right now, planning for all daycare, the car seat, the little things like. Jordyn: you you Danielle: Your brain is now in a totally different like you have another bucket, right? We always laugh that men have these boxes. We'll call it a bucket or whatever. Like you have another thing that is on your brain on top of all the other things. And just that alone, it's like you can totally relate. And it's just nice to be able to like, Yes, you get it. Like you know what I mean. The the thinking never ends. The wheel never stops spinning for of all the things that you're doing. Jordyn: Exactly, yeah, definitely. And then I guess I'm also, I think with that, I am having a boy and so I'm excited to have that difference where I feel like I work so much with women and so much with teen girls and it's it's my passion and it's where I love to live and work. But I don't know anything about boys. And so I'm kind of excited to be on the other side of things where it's like, okay, I'm getting to experience the learning firsthand and I really need the advisor, need the collection of experiences to inform my time. And so I'm excited for that separation between work and motherhood. Danielle: What's good about boys Catie: Yeah, that Danielle: is they love their mamas. We both Katie has two boys. I have my boy's my first, and they really, really love their moms. But another cool thing that I found as I grew up, even just for as a girl, like you don't cry in business, you don't show your like you're you're like, you just make it happen. Like that's what we were all taught. But men were given even less room. to show emotions or process like and like those things. They don't have as many, like, but they do have them. So it's interesting raising a boy, I will say, and I'm I'm going to call I'm gonna call you in seven years because trying to raise Catie: Yeah. Danielle: an emotionally regulated, like strong boy, like is such a unique thing because a lot of the principles you're talking about about the girls still apply to them, but they're even less This topic never existed, but boys were never encouraged like they were never considered emotional. But let me tell you, they are emotional. So Jordyn: Haha. Danielle: like it's just right, Katie? Like it's gonna I cannot wait to talk to you and see. Catie: So emotional. They have so many big emotions. But I also don't know the girl side. It's funny because so I grew up with all girls. So my household growing up was all girls, and there was plenty of emotions in, you know, in me and my sisters, all of us grew up. We are all in, you know, leadership style roles. Like we all are like independent and that. And then Jordyn: Okay. Catie: I have two boys and I'm like, I don't know what to do with you guys. Like I don't. There's just Danielle: You're doing great. Catie: we're trying, but there's pee everywhere. That's the only thing I'll say about boys. And I that I really truly wasn't prepared for it. Danielle: This is really a point of contention for Katie. We talk about it every day. Catie: It's literally like so hard but it's I have a three and four and a half year old, so like we're still learning. Jordyn: Yeah, it's still there, the learning. Yeah, definitely. Catie: The manners are really important. Well, we had so much fun talking to you. can you give our listeners info where to find you, to follow you, reach out to you? All that good stuff. Jordyn: Of course, so you can follow me at mosaic.therapy. get that confused sometimes, but it's mosaic.therapy. And then my website's mosaictherapymiami.com. My office is in Coconut Grove. I'm conveniently located off of US-1 and we have great parking. It's free, which is a bonus in Miami. And I am taking clients right now and I'm pretty flexible. And so I'd love to be a resource to parents. or teens or young women just navigating new chapters. Catie: So amazing. We'll have Danielle: Yes, we'll link everything out for you as well in case you're interested in working with Jordan. And Jordan, honestly, thank you for what you're doing to the all the little uses, like looking back, like the fourteen, sixteen, eighteen year old versions of ourselves could really have used someone like you. So thank you. Jordyn: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's fun to talk about all of this. And like I said, I'm super passionate about it. And so it's great to be on here. Thank you. All right. Have a good day. Danielle: Thank you. Catie: Yeah.