Latest / Why We Do What We Do / Models of Disability

Transcript

Models of Disability · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do? Welcome
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: to Why We Do what we do. I am your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: accessible host, Abraham, and I am.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Your words Matter host Shane.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: that humans and non human animals do. I've maybe been
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: an accessible host before, but it doesn't really matter who's
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: keeping score, not me anyway, we talk about psychology type stuff.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: That's what we do. And turns out that we accidentally
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: started doing a suite of topics each year. So a
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: couple of years ago we did like seven or eight
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: or nine episodes I don't know, something like that on
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: applied behavior analysis. Last year we did a whole suite
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: of episodes on addiction, and this year we are sort
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: of ending the year with a suite of episodes on
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: disability and accessibility issues. I don't really plan to have
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: the minis following suit, Like, I don't think most of
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: the minis will be on topic with that, at least
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: not the entire time. Maybe sometimes well I'd be like, oh,
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: we really need a mini on this thing, and we'll
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: throw it in there, But that's not the plan. Maybe
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: none of them will be related, right, the full length
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: episodes that we release on Wednesdays. These are going to
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: be the way that we're going to approach this for
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: a few weeks. Is that? And and to be clear,
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: like for the vast majority of this, these episodes stand
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: on their own. Yes, It's just that we have a
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: lot of things to say about a particular topic, and
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: so we plan out, like, let's do an episode on
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: this aspect of that topic, an episode on this aspect,
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: and they could have been spread over like many months
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: or years if we wanted it to do it that way,
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: but it felt like like, let's just do them all
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: at once, Like we're sort of on a streak. We
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: have a lot of these in our minds. Let's just
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: like write and record these all sort of at once.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's how we end up with, you know,
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: multiple multiple episodes are around the same topic, but like
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: you said, they can stand alone. And today we are
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: going to cover models of disability to kind of like
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: really kick off this suite of episodes. So hopefully this
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: will kind of lay some groundwork for everybody to kind
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: of get an idea of kind of how people talk
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: about disability, how people think about disability, and maybe some
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: ways that we can you know, maybe evolve a little
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: bit in this space.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: I do think this is going to be a passionate
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: episode one with some emotions and expletives, some expletives here
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: and there. I'm excited to record it. I'm excited for
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: you all to hear it. If you are joining us
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: for the first time, then welcome. I hope that you
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: enjoy what you hear today and that you're here. We go.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: We're looking for some stuff on disabilities. Yeah, we have
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: a lot of episodes now. I'm not even going to
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: try and brief on the topics we have covered because
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: we have been doing this podcast for coming up on
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: nine years now, which is a long time, so we
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: have quite quite I know it's quite the catalog to
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: go check out. But if you're joining us for the
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: first time, I'm really glad you found your way here.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: If you're a returning listener, then thank you for coming back.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Either way, If you'd like to support us, you can
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: join us on Patreon, pick up some merged like subscribe, believe,
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: rating and review, tell a friend, and probably something else.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: But those are things you can do. I'll talk more
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: about that at the end of the discussion. But if
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: you're listening to this on the day that it publishes.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Then remember remember the fifth of November. Because it is
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: November fifth. That means that it is Guy Fox Day,
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: which is why I said that rhyme.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: Yes, it is. It certainly is. It's also American Football Day,
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: which feels like the opposite of what Guy Fox does.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: It feels like the opposite of a lot of what's
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: gonna happen? Y. Yeah, yeah, it is a bank transfer day. Sure,
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: it's Commercial TV broadcast Day. That kind of makes sense.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: For American Football Day. It is firewood Day. Ooh.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: I like that. It's International Stress Awareness Day. Jokes on you.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: I'm aware of it all the time.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Very good. You can ignore it because it is National
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: block it out.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: Day, or you can eat about it because it's National
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: don't Day.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: Which makes a lot of sense because it is also
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: National Eating Healthy Day.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: Mmm. I like that something you don't eat is anything
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: related to guns. So today's National gunpowder Day.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, National Love your Red Hair Day. If you
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: don't love your red hair, you shall not love it.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: I've got a couple of those. It's actually today's Abraham's
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: Least favorite holiday, which is Play Monopoly Day.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: You would you would think you would be higher up
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: there for me, but it's you know, when you're passionate
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: about something you like, you dislike the bad things about
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: it even more than other people.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so loving board games means not loving Monopoly.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: It is World Tsunami Awareness Day.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: It certainly is. It's Drowsy Driving Prevention Week.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: Let's give Wildlife a break week b r ak e
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: mm hmm. It's National fig Week, National Medical Cannabis Week.
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: That's fine, love that, and it is Polar Bear Week.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: Very fun. Okay, but we don't just talk about holidays.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: But we're like, you know, it does this. When we
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: publish episodes, they come out on a day, and that
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: day has got some random stuff going on, and maybe
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: people who listen to this episode are like intimately familiar
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: with that random stuff. So we're just going to shout
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: out those things. Yeah, and it also is just it
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: just feels like a fun thing to do.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: Of course that's not what we're talking about, because we
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: already said what we're talking about, which is models of disability,
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: and so I think that we're ready to dive into this.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: Is there anything that I am missing or that you'd
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: like to add before we address our topic du jour.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: We usually say at the end, but I feel like
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: if anybody has any comments, thoughts, questions, like anything they
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: want to share ahead of time, like or like when
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: you listen to this, please by all means reach out
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: to us, like this is going to be an ongoing
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: I think a complex discussion given the topic itself and
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: like the number of topics we're going to cover, So
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: please feel free to reach out and have a discussion
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: with us, because we would love to hear from you. Sure.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: Email is directly at info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com. I've
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: been having some fun email exchanges with some listterns and
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: it's so like, yeah, get on there more also on
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: the social media platforms, so you can reach us there.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah for sure.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's go ahead and dive into this. Then, if
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: you live long enough, you will have a disability or
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: an impairment. We'll get to that later. It's basically a guarantee, like,
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: if you live long enough, you will it will happen. Yeah,
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: it should go without saying. But because we now live
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: in an increasingly fascist country slash world, which famously hates
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: people with disabilities, we are going to give away our
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: position now that people with disabilities are freaking people who
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: deserve to be treated like people.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: It's not hard.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: That's our position is we treat people like people. We
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: treat them with respect and dignity and compassion, and we
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: will try and protect them from people who would do otherwise. So, yeah,
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: people disabilities, they deserve all the rights, protections, guarantees, rese sources, accommodations,
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: and opportunities that would be afforded to anyone. So you'll
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: see how that aligns with one of the models of
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: disability that we'll describe as we get into this. But
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: that's giving away our position a little early, and we'll
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: come back around to that at the end. We are
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: going to take a as much as possible nuanced objective
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: approach to discussing each of these, and we'll also try
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: and like weigh in on what are the arguments for
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: and against the different well at least for the different models,
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: and why people see them that way.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, and so we the two of us,
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: do most of our work in a disability space. So
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: it feels a propose to a propos apple propos apropos,
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: as I'm saying, a propos I only care apropos to
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: take on a deep, multi part discussion. And so in
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: the best way we think we could think of the
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: kick off the series of discussions about disability specifically is
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: to clearly enumerate and describe how disability has been conceptualized.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: And that's I think we got to start there, to
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: lay some ground war.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it'll be foundational to further discussions that
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: we have. Now, as I said, all of these episodes
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: will stand on their own, but I do think you'll
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: have a better understanding of the subsequent topics we address
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: if we have a clear understanding of where different people
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: are coming from as it relates to disability. So we're
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: going to list in this episode, in this discussion, we're
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: going to list the models of disability, what they mean,
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: and the implications that they have for people with disabilities
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: and people without disabilities to be real.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so let's go ahead and get into it.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: Like we like to define our terms, So let's start
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: with a brief definition or briefish right, Yeah, So models
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: of disability can be thought of as a set of values, goals, inclusion, criterion,
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: and prescribed actions that people have about the spectrum of
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: human conditions that entail lacking the ability to participate in
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: some quote unquote normal activities. Now that's going to be
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: coming from a different place. We don't generally say normal
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: activities because what is by any means normal activity, But
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: that's usually what they're looking at here.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, And that's why we say it with you know,
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: quotes around it is to indicate that what that means
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: is it's a questionable way to refer to it. Yeah,
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: but yeah, I think that's exactly it is. Understanding, Like
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: what are models of disability, they'd like ways of thinking
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: about what that of disability is.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: They're like frameworks.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sort of a framework, but it has really
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: important implications for what there is to do about it.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: So in each of these will sort of break down
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: the core concepts, we'll talk through it and then then
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: you should have like a clear understanding of what they are.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: I hope if we do a good job.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: So this includes how we think about disability, how we
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: think society does or should react to and think about disability,
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: what can or should be done about disability, and what
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: even a disability is.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and these models kind of exist on a timeline.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: Although most or all of them are still around today
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: in one form or another. There spend shifts and nuances
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: and advancements and refinements and stuff like that, so you'll
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: see that a little bit too.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: But importantly want to make sure it's clear that, like
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: when we talk about models of disability, these are not
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: like clubs you sign up for when you think you
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: agree with one or more than the other. These models
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: are just ways to categorize how people have approached disability
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: in the past, how they approach it today. There's not
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: super clear distinct black and white boundaries between these. These
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: are not things that exist in the world. That's just
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: a framework for like thinking about how have people talked
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: about this in the past, how do they talk about
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: it now? What is the sort of way that we
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: approach and think about this, And so just trying to
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: make sure I'm making it clear that, like the these
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: are concepts that we're talking about, right, It's like ideas
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: about ideas. So I just don't want people to think, like, oh,
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: I think I'm this model of disability and you might
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: be like that could be a thing, but like just
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: knowing that, like the lines between them aren't clearly drawn
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: lines that have like firm boundaries. They're just ideas about ideas,
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: so their their concepts.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so the most commonly sided discussion about the models
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: of disability prescribed that three models have emerged over time, moral, medical,
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: and social. And if note others proposed more or different models,
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: we'll come back to that. But we're really going to
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: focus on moral, medical, and social at the three models
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: of our discussion today.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: And we will probably not talk about the advertisement model.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: Oh, which is the worst model? Maybe?
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: All right, we're back maybe the I don't know if
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: it's the worst model. The first model is pretty horrid
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: one I hope that most people don't agree with. But
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: we shall find our way there, I guess. Anyway, all right,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: so we're back. Let's go ahead and dig into it. So, yeah,
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: the three models of disability will be discussing the primary
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: models that have been described in sort of academic circles, moral, medical,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: and social. So we'll start with the moral model. And
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: again this is sort of a time line thing. So
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: the moral model seems to represent or it really represented,
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: the primary only way of thinking about disabilities for most
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: of human history, like if people talked about them, if
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: they thought about them the way that they were approached
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: the vast majority of the time up until about the
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, like somewhere in the mid nineteen hundreds, but
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: around the nineteen seventies you had essentially the moral model
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: of thinking about disabilities. And that's not to say that
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: there was no instance where that wasn't the case, but
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: it was primarily the case the way that people approach
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: to disabilities.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so the core concepts of the moral model
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: include the following. First, disability is a thing that is
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: different from quote unquote normal. Disability happens for a reason,
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: good or bad, usually bad. Therefore, there is little or
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: nothing that can be done or should be done about disability.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: And the third is that the solution to disability is
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: stop having a disability or tough you're stuck with it.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: It's gross.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's basically the position. This model primarily sees
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: disability as bad and something for which blame because it
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: needs blame. I guess can be placed on the individual
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: or the individual plus people in their orbit, parents and community,
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: that sort of thing. So it's like, your disability is
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: your fault or your parent's fault or both, it's your
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: community's fault. Like you have a bad thing that happened
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: to you and you deserve it. That's that's basically the approach, right.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: And so the moral model treats disability and impairment as
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: one of the same, essentially that you are quote different
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: from quote normal in any way that makes you in
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: some cases quote more than others and in most cases
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: quote lesser. Ugh, it's just awful. It's an awful way
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: to think about people. As model's disability as being justly
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: deserved as well, which is just also like feels real bad.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah it, as you might hear in this this
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: model often not always, but often has a pretty religious foundation.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: Of course, I'm an I guess. Yeah, so it might
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: be seen as divine punishment, divine intervention, divine retribution, having
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: some origin in divinity, meaning imparted onto that person by
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: like the universe or God, you know, insert deific thought here.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: But yeah, that's that's sort of the idea here is
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: the foundation has this like this has been handed down
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: to you, and therefore it's yours. You deserve it.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: I wish so desperately that I was surprised by that,
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: but I am absolutely not, which is like I think
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: just so telling Yeah, of course there's that foundation there, Like,
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: who would be surprised? Yeah, So now, disability and impairment
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: are punishment for thoughts, feelings, or deeds according this model,
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: and can be a clear sign that you are guilty
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: of wrongdoing. This course with the quote just world hypothesis
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: that views all events as fair and that all people
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: get what they deserve.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yes, Like people who rise to power, no matter
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: how much you may disagree with them, they deserve to
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: be there because they got there, so that happens. People
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: who have terrible things happen to them. It doesn't matter
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: if they were good or pious or anything like. Clearly
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: they deserve to have that happen. So the fact that
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: they end up with a disability means they earned it.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: That's theirs, they should have it like that. That's sort
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: of the idea here. Yeah, And of course some do
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: see it the opposite way, in terms of it not
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: being a punishment, but that the disability is actually a gift.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: It might be viewed as a sign that God has
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: such faith in you that you can persist and even
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: find strength even with a disability, or that you are
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: chosen to have that disability. For some other divine purpose.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: So there is some aspect to it that has that
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: sort of empowerment piece. But otherwise that I guess that's
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: just the point that I'm making in this and right now,
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: is just that some people do see it as like
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: they could be seen as a very good thing.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there are some cultures that like will specifically highlight
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: certain disabilities as like better than others and and like
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: kind of come from this model and the like, you know,
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: like for example, in China, in some spaces, like I know,
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: some communities will find that somebody diagnosed with autism is
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: considered that. I think that the term that was used
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: was like star child, like it was like a gift
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: from the heavens, gift from the gods and stuff like.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: There were a couple like there's a couple comments and
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: like communities that believe that as part of this and
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: that that also like aligns with a moral model, which
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: is like this is a gift, this is good, this
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: is something that comes from the space. So like I
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: think it's I think it is important. Like I know,
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: it sounds like you know, most of it's most of
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: it's like you got what you deserve, and it's terrible
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: because people view disabilities as bad, but there's also those
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: I've seen examples of that too, especially working in different communities.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: I forget what it was, but we did talk about
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: this a little bit in the discussion we did where
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: like with a lot of the incest that was happening
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: on the Hawaiian Islands and early sort of kingdoms, they
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: would have children born with various differences limb differences, neurological differences,
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: et cetera. Mean that those were celebrated, as you as
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: we sort of described as being like children of God,
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: basically like they were like almost holy figures.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So this discussion sounds like it's kind of antiquated
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: a little bit, and you might think it's kind of uncommon,
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: but it's actually very much alive and strong today. Many
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: movies and other media make use of this idea. Villains
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: might be disabled or impaired. Disabled people are depicted as pitiable, sinister, maladjusted, pathetic, evil,
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: and capable of having a successful life or a burden
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: to their family or society at large. Specifically, when we
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: were talking about this, I was thinking of how I
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: was thinking of three hundred, Yeah, and how the one
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: character was kind of like cast off as like a pariah,
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: and like he deserved it. He was not fit, he
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: wasn't he would not be able to participate in quote
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: unquote normal activities, and that obviously didn't work out for
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: the Spartans, But like it was one of those things
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: I think about that specif you know that depiction, which
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: is like obviously not an accurate depiction of like disability
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: in some spaces, but like it is something that was
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: like notable in media.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: Well, that's a great example of representing how this was
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: thought about in the past. And we did it a
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: whole episode on the Spartans, uh, in our three hundredth episode,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: which is one hundred and forty four episodes ago.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Wild that.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that like they practiced a hardcore version of eugenics, yes,
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: which resulted in basically killing off their society, right, which
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: makes sense. But yeah, that you're right that there is
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: how that was depicted in that, and I think it's
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: depicted that way in a lot of movies. Like that's
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: actually a super common thing to use. Alternatively, some people
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: with disabilities are projected as heroically quote unquote overcoming their
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: disability in these sort of media movie type spaces, and
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: then they performed some miraculous feat because they overcame their disability.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: And all that feeds into the idea that people swink
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: or swim by their own merit when they have a disability,
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: and that again is sort of a you know, it
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: is what it is is, you know, do you if
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: you fail? And like, good on you if you succeed,
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: But like that's that's pretty much it.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and if it isn't clear by this point in
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: the episode, we don't particularly subscribe to this orientation, Like
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: it feels gross, And it feels gross because it portrays
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: this ability as something you deserve one way or another. Yeah,
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: and that doesn't feel right, Like I would guess this
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: is not the most common way that people think about
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: disability anymore. I think, with advancements and like maybe some
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: growth of the you know how people think about people
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: more often than not. But I do fear that like
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: there is this embedded in society in some way. I
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: was literally listened to a guy talk about how snap
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: benefits shouldn't be they should just get rid of them
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: all together, because he because and he specifically said, the
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: guy who's four feet tall and in a wheelchair can
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: still greet people at Walmart. So if he can do that,
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: then you shouldn't be on TikTok do and blah blah blah.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: It's like it just to totally negates like all these things.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: It's just a weird model. It doesn't feel good.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it exists, it's there. But I do think
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: even people who have this sort of meritocracy idea about disability,
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: I don't think it is fully realized across all versions
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: of all disabilities and the way that this model sort
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: of exists. So I might see like some people as
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: being like, yeah, you deserve it, it happened to you.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: But other people it might be like, that is a
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: thing that sucks, that shouldn't have happened to you. We
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: will try and help you, and like they could have
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: those sort of those simultaneous beliefs about different people in
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: different situations and not struggle with the fact that those
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: sort of clashed with each other in terms of values.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: But yeah, so that I think is a nice way
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: to just summarize. Nice That is a coherent way to
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: summarize the moral model.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's transition to then the medical model. All right,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: So the medical model, as we described. There's sort of
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: a timeline here. Everything up to mid nineteen hundreds, roughly
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventies was primarily situated inside of that sort of
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: social model, the blame for your disability. Around the nineteenth
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: the middle of the century, the nineteen seventies or so,
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: we start to see a shift in perspective and instead
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: disability is now seen and sort of the medical model
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: this is this sort of gain more popularity. They do
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: describe it in one of the sources I found as
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: existing from the nineteen seventies to the nineteen nineties. That's
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: definitely not accurate, Like this is still very pervasive and
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: very common. Matter of fact, I would kind of guess
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: that possibly most people fall into this category. I'm not sure.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: I don't know if anyone's done some kind of census
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: about it. But the medical model does not require blame
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: for it to work. So the social model is about blame.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: The medical model doesn't really care about blame, but it
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: does focus on the individual with the disability, and it
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: might also emphasize prevention of acquiring disabilities, if you will.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: And I think as we get into it, it sees
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: disability as problematic.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I do think that conversation of prevention is always
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: an interesting one from a behavioral perspective. We always kind
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: of talk about prevention of crisis behavior as a podcast,
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: we never really talk about prevention of ADS. Though.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: We are back and we were saying we do not
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: talk about the prevention of ads. That is kind of true.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: I think we've sort of mentioned it, but I mean
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: also the opposite is like we directly include them.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: So do you know the thing, it's a conundrum wrapped
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: in a mystery and all those things.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: That was a nice buffer for people who skipped through
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: the ads and are trying to figure out where the
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: conversation happens. So now we're getting back on track.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, here we are. So we're talking about the
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: medical model and kind of how this emerged. The medical
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: model still views disability and impairment as essentially similar things.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: The core concepts of the medical model include that disability
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: is when quote unquote normal things are broken and therefore pathological,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: which in itself can be a concern. Disability is a
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: broke quote unquote broken thing that needs to be fixed.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: People with disabilities should listen to able bodied experts who
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: want to help so they can be fixed. Quote unquote again,
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: and the solution to disability is to quote unquote repair
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: the person so that it is not a disability anymore.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's the general idea, and I think that like
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: this exists in a lot of ways, in a lot
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: of spaces, and this one actually does require a bit
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: more nuance in conversation, which we'll get to a little
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: bit later, but we want to make sure that we
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: do unpack clearly what's happening here. And that's actually kind
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: of the gist of it though, Like the medical model
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: is that, like, disabilities are a thing that need to
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: be fixed, yeah, and a problem to be solved. It's
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: a problem to be solved. You're exactly right, that's where
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: it's coming from. And I think a lot of people
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: hear that and they're like, well, that is what disabilities are.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: And so hold on before you before you start writing
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: emails or like tune out, like let's let's make sure
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: we get through this so that you'll understand where we're
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: coming from. And it's I think worth pointing out that
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: the medical model can be found in a lot of
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: different spaces. You can find a version of the medical
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: model of disability in psychological spaces. Physiological spaces and even
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: educational spaces, and in these settings, labels are important, meaning
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: that they want to call a disability something. They want
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: to say it's this thing, or it's this thing. And
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: when they call it something, there is usually a variety
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: of quote unquote treatments that they might prescribe for that thing,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: because again, it's a broken thing that needs to be fixed.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: In this view, when we say thing, we're saying the disability,
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: not the person.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: Just to be clear, Yeah, yeah, although fixing the disability
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: might involve fixing the person in the medical model, sure, sure,
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: quote unquote fixing like doing something to them. Yeah, And
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: again here important features that disabled people are sort of
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: expected to comply with whatever directives they're given to improve
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: their pathological state and return them to a quote unquote
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: normal state or as close to that as they can
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: possibly get, as to sort of what you might think
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: of as remediate their way down. And please excuse the
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: fact that we sort of slip in and out of
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: this language that's quite ablest as we're trying to describe
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: this model, because we're really just trying to get the
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: ideas across, and rather than say, quote unquote every single
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: time like sometimes I'm just going to say what they're
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: saying and know that we will get back arounds to
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: where that becomes more problematic and other ways to talk
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: about it as well, But just understanding that, like that's
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: essentially the medical model. It exists in a lot of
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: different spaces, and a lot of it has to do
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: with like, allow us experts to help you who are
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: who need our help.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, a lot of behavior analists have and I
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: want to be clear, not all, not all I think
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: we're getting better, yeah, but a lot of behavior analysts
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: and kind of the historically the field at large has
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: approached their jobs with people with disabilities much like the
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: medical model. And you'll hear the quote and this has
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: actually used a lot when we kind of discuss behavior
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: analysis historically, is this quote that we want to quote
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: make them indistinguishable from their peers end quote which comes
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: from some problematic folks many many years ago. But it
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: is one of those things that is that has become
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: not necessarily a mantra for the field, but that is
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: kind of baked in to a lot of the practices
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: of behavior analysis and we're really trying to work to
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: undo that.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, as you said, there's been a significant dramatic shift
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: away from that way of thinking about it, and I
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: think much more towards the different model that we're going
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: to discuss shortly. But like, yeah, that has been how
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: some people have viewed it, and I think that it does.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: We can hear it. And that's part of why I
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: think we understand this model really well is coming from
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: a place where that was historically a similar way to
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: approach it. And to be fair, like that those were
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: kind of your options at the time. That behavior analysis
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: as a way to approach disability was different from the
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: moral model, is that it was the medical model and
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: you basically had those are the two primary ways of
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: thinking about disability. Either it's your fault, it doesn't matter.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: If it's your fault, we're going to try and fix
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: it right. And you can see that there was the
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: value of compassion in that, and that I think gets
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: to the sort of nuance a little bit that we're
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: going to come back to is that, like, I think
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: you can hear this model and understand that where they're
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: coming from is not this like whatever you got it,
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: you it's yours. You're stuck with it. Too bad? If
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: life is hard to like, let's try and make your
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: life easier. But again, that requires viewing disability as like
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: something's wrong with you. We need try to change the
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: thing that's wrong with you so that you can be
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: not wrong anymore.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: It aligns a lot with disease models.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: It does, yeah, very much. So yeah, so the medical
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: model certainly does not enroll the input from people with
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: disabilities historically not Usually it's not like, hey, what do
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: you think, what do you need? It's more like you
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: have something wrong with you. Here's what we're going to
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: do to fix it sort of approach. So that's another
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: sort of feature here, is just that it is like
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: handed down from on high, the White Ivory Tower sort
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: of thing.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: Sure. Now, in movies and medical model, presentation of a
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: disabled person might be that they are hopeless and desponded
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: until an able bodied person helps them find meaning and
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: quality of life. They swoop in with their savior behavior
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: and fix all the problems that are being expressed by
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: that person with disabilities.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: I also saw sort of a reverse twist on how
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: this might be depicted in in entertainment media and storytelling,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: where it depicts sort of this disabled person who helps
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: enable bodied person become a better person by saying like
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: it's Rainman. Yeah, actually is a good way.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: That's the entire premise of rain Man.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah right, that is exactly right. So wow, a
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: good good call on that, man. I love that you
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: had that. It's like ready to go. That was impressive.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: I've always found media depictions of disability and like and
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: the perspectives on it very fascinating because especially working in it,
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: because you're like, that's not that's not correct. I feel
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: like one of the closest representations of like systems that
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: impact people disabilities, maybe like I am Sam, because you've
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: got somebody who who is has a disability and has
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: a child and is like struggling in a system where
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: they're like trying to be a caretaker for their child
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: and they don't know how to navigate the system, and
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: like they don't really get the support they deserve or need.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: So like, there are some things like that where like
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: you see it and you're like, I could see that
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: happening more realistically than something like Rainman, which is not
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: quite an accurate depiction of disability in that space.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, fair, And I think we sort of alluded to
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: so I think we've done a good job sort of
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: given examples of movies that depict this in various ways.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Where you have three hundred is a good example of this,
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: of the moral model. Rain Man is a good example
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: of the medical model as a way that those values
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: are spoused. And I'm sure we could come up with
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: a lot more, because disability is actually represented in quite
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: a few instances in media, but I think in a
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: lot of them they either come from the moral model
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: or the social model, or the sorry of the medical model.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: But that I'm skipping a head a little bit because
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: we're now getting to the third and final of the
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: three primary models that people talk about, which is called
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: the social model.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So this was identified starting in the nineteen nineties
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: when Heroin was all the rage and flannel was everybody's
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: fashion choice or neon, I guess. And during this time,
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: Wild and Crazy Kids was on Nickelodeon and that was
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: a lot of fun.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: Nirvana was like the music of the age.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, Now this model that started in nineties,
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: if use disability as a diverse characteristic of people, much
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: like race, ethnicity, gender, etc. It's not something wrong with
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: the person, it's just an aspect of who they are.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And the core concepts of the social model are
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: that some of the list of few of them. One
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: is that disabilities are simply unique characteristics of people. As
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: you just mentioned, It's just a feature of how that
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: person shows up in the world. Disabilities are a failure
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: of society to accommodate a broad range of impairments. Disabilities
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: are not wrong and therefore no one's fault, and the
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: solution to disability is to make the world a more
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: accommodating place. That's sort of those core concepts embedded in
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: the social model here.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And this model distinguishes between disability and impairment, which
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: I think is really important, in which the impairment is
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: the physical or mental condition and disability is the restrictions
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: and impairments that make the impairment challenging for the person
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: who has it.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So I want to I want to like make
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: sure that that point is really clear. Essentially, they're saying, like,
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: people show up in the world a lot of different ways.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Sometimes the world is not really set up to receive
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: those people just because of the way that they showed
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: up and the fact that the world is more difficult
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: for them to navigate is what we're calling disability. Sure,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: And I think as a as an example of this
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: that I was thinking about as I was sort of
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: putting this together, is like the world is very accommodating
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: for people who are right hands dominant, and that because
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: the world, particularly in the past, it's gotten so much better.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: But like, particularly in the past, because the world was
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: so difficult for people who were left hand dominant to navigate,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: Like you could have very much called being left handed
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: a disability for like, and it was it was for a.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: While, like people did consider that and they taught it
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: out of people.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I actually we have a listener mail that
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: I was not planning to include that I think I'm
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: going to that person writes in it and gives that
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: exact description of growing up where it was punished is
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: using the left hand to do things. And yeah, like
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: the world was just harder to navigate and in some
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: places nearly impossible to navigate because the things that we built,
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: the structures that we created, the doors that we made,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: our writing system are reading, so many things were essentially
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: like easy to do if you were right hand dominant,
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: and difficult or impossible if you were left hand dominant.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: And so like the fact that they're left handed is
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: not like a problem. It's just that we built a
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: world that doesn't allow them to successfully work inside that world.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think you could see this example and
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: like for folks who are wheel like in wheelchairs or
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: like people with limb differences too, like really clearly right,
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: so like you know where you might say the impairment
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: is that somebody has a limb difference. Then maybe they
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: have they're missing a leg or something like this, and
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: the disability is that they have a harder time navigating
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: certain walkways or because they maybe don't have a prosthetic
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: that has been adapted to them or something like that,
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: where they maybe have some struggles in those spaces, Like
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: you might see something like that, or like we mentioned,
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: like being in a wheelchair, the impairment is that you're
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: in a wheelchair. The disability is that you can't move
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: upstairs as safely or as smoothly as somebody who is
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: not in a wheelchair, right, which is why we need
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: to accommodate and why we need it se up the
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: world to meet those needs.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: Yes, Okay, do I feel like we've clearly identified the
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: distinction between like impairment and disability.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: I think we did our best.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, all right, hopefully that's clear, because I think it's
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: really important to understand, like people have a way. Again,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: it's really just thinking about that, Like, you might show
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: up in the world in a particular way, and if
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: the world is not set up to allow you to
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: navigate through it because of the systems and the architecture
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: and the things that we've created, then like that's the problem.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: You just are you however that is for you and
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: how you navigate the world is kind of the problem
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: that was created by people not thinking about how people
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: show up in the world somewhat differently they designed it.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: It'd be like if someone who was four feet tall
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: designed a building where all the doorways were just barely
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: over four feet tall because they're like, well this works
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: for me, and everyone else is coming and being like,
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: well I can't. I'd have to get down and literally
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: crawl through that door. Shane would have to like do
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: the worm to get through that door. Yeah, yeah, and
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: like that would look like a disability for him then
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: because he's very tall and the door is very small.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: That's essentially the way to think about this, right, absolutely
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: that's why it's important to have the difference between what's
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: a disability and what's impairment and what's an advertisement. All right,
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: we're back. We're talking about the social model of disabilities
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: and what that entails.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so going back to kind of what we're trying
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: to emphasize here, if we're thinking about what the core
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: features and the values of like thiss model are, the
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: social model does emphasize the disability is a lack of
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: cohesion between someone's situation and the way the infrastructure society
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: has designed the systems of use. Right, So, like that's
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: the biggest thing. It's like there is a valley between
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: somebody's current situation and the way that society has adapted
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: to meet their needs.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: So let's take for example, again just trying to highlight this,
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: I use example of someone being you know, four feet
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: tall designing doors, someone who is left handed navigating a
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: world for right handed people. Let's imagine walking into a
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: restaurant where all the chairs and the tables are at
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: least five feet tall, Like you would have to like
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: for me, the top of the chair would be like
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: where my neck is, or like the seat of the
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: chair would be where my neck is right for someone
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: who's fifteen feet tall. And yes, I understand that those
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: people don't exist, but let's pretend they do. For someone
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: who's fifteen feet tall, this might work great. They come in,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: they're like, oh, this is really handy. I can sit here.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: But for the rest of us, like the majority of us, probably,
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: we would struggle to climb into our chairs and reach
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: the table. Yeah, and so this would be a disability
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: for us. And it's not because there's anything wrong with us.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: It's because the people who made this restaurant made the
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: chairs extremely tall, so like to get to our chair,
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: we have to literally climb up that chair somehow. And
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: to help think about how this relates to the different models.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: If you think about this restaurant that I've designed here,
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: where the chairs, the seat of the chair is five
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: feet off the table and the table itself is even higher,
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: the moral model might respond with, tough, this place isn't
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: for you. Sit on the floor and eat or leave.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: That's the sort of moral model. The medical model might
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: respond with, all right, let's go ahead and fix those
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: legs or to make them much much longer so that
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: you can reach the table. That's sort of the medical
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: model here. The social model is like, let's lower those
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: chairs so you can reach them, or at least provide
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: an easy way for you to get up to those
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: chairs so that you can sit and participate in this restaurant.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: I like this.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: Example as something that's like a little bit absurd, but
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: to help just try and illustrate the differences between those.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: It's like one of them is like, suck it up,
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: too bad, you can't eat at this restaurant. The other
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: one is like, well, let's go ahead and implant those
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: new legs so you can sit in those chairs. And
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: the third one is like, let's give you a ladder
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: or maybe just make the chairs shorter so that you
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: can sit there and participate.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: The social models is so parsimonious.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's like which one would you rather be
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: participating in? What if you found yourself in the situation? Right, Like,
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: I feel like it's pretty clearly the third one.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think this is really important to think
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: about this when you think about this logically, and you
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: think about this, like just from the perspective of like
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: how do we even get here? Right? Society has created
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: systems and structures that simply prohibit participation for some people.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: We design the systems, and then many people can't participate
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: in those systems, and then we blame those people. We
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: say that they're the ones with something wrong with them.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: What the fuck is that? Yeah, it doesn't even make
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: any sense.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like, you can't use this thing. I made this
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: thing that you can't use. That's your fault. And I'm like,
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: but you made it, but you made it, which means
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: you can change it. Yeah, So like, why is that
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: my fault. I'm just over here, just doing my thing.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: I'm just living my best life. And you're like, here's
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: a here's a thing you can't use. And I'm like,
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, okay, I guess I won't use it, but
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: why and by the way, everyone else can. I want
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: to make it so everyone can use it.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: But you it's so weird.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: It is weird, and it's it's just such a backward
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: way of thinking about it, I think.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: But yeah, agree, Okay.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: So the social model is focused on changing the environment,
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: the systems, and society to create a more inclusive and
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: accommodating space that works for everyone, or at least as
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: many people as possible. There's a really important point here
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: that I think. I also want to illustrate inside of
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: the social model, well designed systems that accommodate impairment make
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: a disability disappear like it makes it so like it
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: almost doesn't exist. And the other beautiful thing about accommoding
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: impairments is that it works for everyone.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: On right, let's use this as an example. Right, we
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: have engineered doors that since when somebody nears them and
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: automatically opens them before you get to them and closes
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: behind you. We used to only make heavy doors that
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: had to have a latcher handle that was pushed or turned.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: Now we ought to do that. Now not only not
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: only do we have these automatic doors where you never
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: have to touch them and they open for everybody that approaches,
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: but now you also get to pretend to be a
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: Jedi when you walk into every store you walk into.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: That's right, you can use the force open the door.
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: Win, win for everybody.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: And I just want to highlight, like how big of
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: a difference that makes. So if you had imagined, like
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: every door that you approached were these heavy doors that
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: had some kind of latch that you had to manipulate
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: to open, and now we have doors that just open
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: for you as you approach them. And the advent of
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: automatic doors, people who are missing limbs or hands, without
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: the strength or balance to push, pull, or turn, who
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: lacked the vision to see where to engage with the door,
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: people who are in wheelchairs or walkers, or with a cane,
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: veteran amputees. Even if thinking about like mothers with strollers
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: or who are carrying babies or holding them by the hand,
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: people who just have their arms full of stuff, even
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: just people coming and going at the same time, the
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: door no longer becomes an obstacle to everyone, right, and
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: we're talking about like a mother with a stroller shed
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: Like I don't think we would usually call that a disability,
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: but when your option to try and go into a
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: building is to navigate heavy door with latch, that starts
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: to feel like a disability. And we create these automatic doors,
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, everyone benefits from this. We
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: all benefit. It's more convenient and we barely even notice
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: that it's there, and more people can use it. Boom
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: better system. Like that's that is that is it? And
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: like that's the example of what I mean of, Like
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: we design these ways and these things in such a way,
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: and it's like it doesn't just help the people who
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: are in wheelchairs. It helps everyone, and it helps the
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: people who are in wheelchairs. And again, a well designed
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: system makes the disability disapp here. It's not a struggle
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: anymore for people who would like have some situation that
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: would make it difficult for them, and all we had
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: to do was make it work a little better.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, So, disability and impairment is not a problem.
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: It's not a mistake, and it's not an inconvenience. It's
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: just and we say this from like the perspective of
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: like how it should be viewed. Right, Yes, for that person,
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: they may be experiencing some inconveniences and related to it,
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: but like as a society, like, it's not it shouldn't
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: be like an inconvenience to somebody who it does not
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: have a disability. It's just how well or how poorly
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: our systems are capable of working for the most people
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: in the most situations. And according to this model, everybody's
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: included and everybody wins.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: So the way that this might be depicted in movies
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: and media is when you have people with disabilities who
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: have agency where they are able to navigate and work
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: inside of their world without needing to have some able
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: bodied savior to get them there, and that they are
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: perfectly realized, complex individuals who like have character and have agency.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: And I actually think as I was thinking about this,
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: where this occurred to me as showing up as in
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: the TV show Only Murders in the Building. Have you
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: watched that one?
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: No? I haven't watched that one?
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, So I think it's the very first season and
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: they have a character who is deaf and communicates via
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: sign and they do this one episode where the entire
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: episode has almost no sound because it's from his perspective.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: Oh wow, And so it's a really cool way of
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: seeing him just sort of navigate and walk through the world.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: And essentially they get to a point where like people learn,
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: they learn sign, they have all these systems in place
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: to make it so that this personins can sort of
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: navigate and like he figures stuff out on his own,
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: he like works with things on his own. He has character,
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: he has agency, he has an arc, and they sort
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: of show what it's like to sort of navigate a
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: world in that way and how like he can. He's
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: living this rich, full life as a person where the
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: primary thing about him, like his disability does come into
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: play as it relates to the nature of the story
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: because well, I'm not going to get into it because
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: it kind of spoils the first season, but the point
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: being that, like he is a character and the disability
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: is just a feature of that character. If that makes sense.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that makes perfect sense. And I think
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: another one I think up too is Echo. Oh yeah,
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: the MCU show. Yeah, I think Actually this is such
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: an interesting one because if you are familiar, Echo plays
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: Mae Lopez and Mayo Lopez is like, this is just
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: badass like martial artists, like kind of like hit woman
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: type of situation. But she's completely deaf and she has
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: a limb difference. She has a prosthetic leg and so
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: she but she is the most badass person that is
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: on the entire show. And she actually was like her
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: limb difference was acquired in real life because the actress
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: they used specifically was deaf and also had a limb
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: difference in real life, and so she has there was
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: like some cool representative representation there too, on top of
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: the fact that she was also indigenous, So you've got
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: all these things happening. There were like really cool. But
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: like as far as like depict you of disability, I
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: think they did a really good job of showing how
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: the fail. They didn't make that the central point of
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: the show. Yeah, they made her like, you know, she
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: herself was had agency, she was independent. She was just
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: this like killer, like superior martial artist in all these spaces,
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: and everybody around her just worked with her and like
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: learned to work like and like learn to communicate with
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: her instead of like forcing her to communicate in other ways.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good example. Daredevil, I feel like sort
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: of also falls into a similar category here.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So those are the three models as we described.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: We have the moral model, the medical model, and the
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: social model. There are like some other models that people
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: have talked about, I do think like and they specifically say,
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: like they're kind of a tangential side step version from
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: existing models, or they're like maybe a slightly expanded or
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: different framework from models. So we'll explain those really quick.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: Just we'll just go through each of them. We won't
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: do as big of a like a deep of a
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: dive as we've done on the original three, but first
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: we'll play an add I guess all right, we'll back,
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: we'll back, we're back. Let's get into some of the
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: other sort of models that people talked about. So if
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: you heard those three and you're like, well, those other
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: models too. I did find a few more, and maybe
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: not even all of them. But if we miss some,
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: write in and tell us. But we'll go ahead and
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: list a few more of the other models that exist.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So one of the models that comes up is
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: the charity model, and charity models these people with disabilities
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: is tragic, pitiable people who need benefits and services. They
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: need charity and helping them is doing charitable work. They
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: must be cared for and are often or always incapable
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: of making decisions and being independent. I think the core
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: feature of that one is less about getting people services
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: that they may need that they're requesting and accessing and
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: like trying to do, and more about like thinking that
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: they need it because they can't do anything. Yeah, the
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: charity model sounds like it andfantalizes people.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: It does, and like this This is, as you can
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: probably guess, a sort of small twist on the moral model.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: It actually is probably closer to maybe more contemporary religious traditions,
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: where it's like the you know, go do charitable work
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: and help those poor people who can't help themselves sort
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: of thing. And it doesn't think infantilize people. Yeah, there's
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: also the human rights model. This one is described as
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: a sort of existing circle nineteen ninety six or so,
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: so slightly after the social model, and this one is
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: described as building on the social model, and it sees
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: people with disabilities as being the central agents in their lives,
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: capable of making decisions. The primary focus of the human
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: rights model is to push for the responsibility of the
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: powers that be to create equitable treatment for people with disabilities,
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: and is largely kind of seen as a legal framework
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: for implementing the social model. So it's sort of like
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: an almost advocacy type, like we know where our values
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: stand on this. The human rights model is like, let's
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: get an action about this yesterday.
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I could see that model kind of being a
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: springboard for person centered approaches. Yeah, that feels like it's
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: in that space where it's like you're making sure that
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: like you are taking active steps to include the folks
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: that are involved in the services to be at the
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: table and be involved in those services and be the
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: center of those services. Like I could see that kind
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: of showing up.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great example.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: There's the economic model, which is concerned with the extent
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: to which a disability prevents someone from working. It considers
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: the financial impact of disability as it relates to the individual,
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: the employer, and the state. It is largely a framework
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: for making decisions about disability as it relates to its
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: economic impact. And this is almost as bad as the
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: moral model because it essentially says you're only worth what
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: you can produce. Yeah, and that feels like just capitalism
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: at its core, which is just also really bad. But
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: that's kind of what it looks like to me at least.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: Man, we need to dig into capitalism sometime because I
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: think people hear that and they're like, like this to me,
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: feels like the libertarian view of disability. Yeah, right. Of
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: the ones that we've talked about, it's it's the most
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: separate from the three different models because it feels like
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: it's really just about like money, money, money, money.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: Money, it's all about productivity. Well, yeah, it's what you produces.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: What is what you're worth?
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly right, and that there's like there's an aspect
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: of that that's like all right, we might a combat disability,
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: because that means that they work and they contribute and
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: they pay in taxes and they you know, buy things,
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: and like that's the important thing, is that we all
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: buy things and we all work. Yeah, And I know
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: people have that value, and I think that like I understand,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: like from a very pragmatic stand like position pragmant it's
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: not really the word for it, from a very outcome
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: oriented position, I think I can sort of understand where
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: they're coming from and also strongly disagree with that value
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: that's embedded inside of that. And I think that's why
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: it'll be worth at some point like really unpacking what's
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: going on in sort of the capitalist system, because I
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: think that people just see those like this is this
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: is the right way, Like this is the only way
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: we could possibly do things. But anyway, let's continue. The
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: last of the additional models that I found is a
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: functional model. It's sort of a version of the medical model.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: So as you can see, we sort of have like
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: tangential side steps to the core models, and then the
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: economic model. You have Charity is the moral model, human
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: rights is a social model, functional is the medical model,
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: and then you have the economic models kind of its
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: own thing. But it's pretty close to the moral model.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: It's the closest to the moral model, I guess.
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, But anyway, the functional model is sort of a
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: version of the medical model that emphasizes the extent to
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: which a person's capabilities or a lack thereof, impact the
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: extent to which they can perform functional activities like activities
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: of daily living, that sort of thing. So it's really
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: looking at like, how do we change you so that
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: you can do things more effectively?
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: Sure that, and you can see where that can lead
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: into a problem and where that's like directly related to
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: the medical model for sure.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I mean again, it also is a little
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: bit more in the like outcome oriented end, like let's
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: just get things working slightly better, But the way to
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: get things working better is like fix the person, not
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: the situation. Yeah, and I kind of ironically where I
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: feel like, although behavior analysts have sometimes been in that position,
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: I'm like, our overall ethos has always been fixed the situation. Yeah,
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: and so it's kind of weird that it has espoused
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: a totally different orientation at times.
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: So we've listed all the models, what are the models
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: of disability and what they are, what they entail, what
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: their core concepts are, and so you might be wondering, like,
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: what's the right answer here? And I feel like we
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: made our position really clear both at the beginning, in
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: the middle, and at the end. But we'll go ahead
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: and just say, like the social human rights models is
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: the right one, right.
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: Like that that feels like the nicest and also the
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: most useful one for sure.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think that it works the best
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: in every way that you could be concerned with a
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: model working, it works the best. And I think you
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: could argue that there are pros and cons to each,
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: and we're going to do that just to help underscore that,
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: Like we want to understand why people adhere to one
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: or one model or another, and so we need to
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: talk through like sort of what they get out of
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: what they see in those models. But yeah, if the
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: correct answer is really kind of the social human rights model,
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: if you are concerned with any aspect of disability at all,
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: like that one, Like, even if you think it's people's
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: fault this, the social model still works better. Even if
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: you think that we need to fix that, the social
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: model still works better. Like, yeah, no matter how you
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: slice and dice it, it just works better. So I
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: think that that's the human and the human rights is
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: embedded in there. Yeah, but I think that's pretty much
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: the best way to go.
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: It seems to impact the most people positively.
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, like, if you're someone who's like I'm
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: just concerned with people's ability to perform a job, I'm like, well,
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: if you think about this as like how do we
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: accommodate spaces so that they can work, then like we
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: we're looking at this in the social model, like that
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: still is the better way to go, Like.
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, you know, at the end
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: of the day, people are gonna they're gonna latch onto
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: whatever feels closest to their already adopted set of values.
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: The meritocracy idea is very appealing to the moral argument crowd.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: It's also kind of in line with the medical model crowd.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: People see it as quote unquote fair that some people
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: get to participate in others do not, And so you're
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: gonna have folks that just like they glom onto that
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: very easily.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think, you know, a religious person might
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: find the moral model very attractive by virtue of the
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: employment of God as the enigmatic giver of life assignments,
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: including terrible ones. Coher is nicely with the worldview that
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: they already espouse about like that's how just how things happen.
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: It might feel noble and even empowering to say like
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: God wants you this way, lucky, and approach it that way.
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: And I do think, like again trying to just consider
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: the nuances here, the idea that like, if someone can
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: really take on and believe my impairment is a blessing
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: from God, that might be as empowering or even more
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: than the social model, which is like we're going to
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: fix the things that are wrong with our infrastructure so
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: that it's more accommodating by people feeling like really like
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: this is such a wonderful thing that I have this,
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: and so like that could be a pro that people
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: turn to and say like how wonderful is it that
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: they have such a great attitude and outlook on their disability,
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, I'm not going to say that you're wrong.
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: I still like would espouse the social model, the human
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: rights model, but like I just wanted to try and
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: build in the nuance and try and thinking about like
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: where you could look at this and make a case
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: for it if that makes sense.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I could see how that could show
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: up for some folks for sure. Now, there are several
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: conditions that require a digital tools or supports to facilitate
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: agile movement and interaction with the world, And being able
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: to interact with the world in an agile way without
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: those tools would be easier. If you spent your entire
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: life using vision to navigate the world, and all of
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: a sudden your vision was severely compromised, a surgery might
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: make it so that you can once again depend on
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: your vision without any additional tools. That applies a medical
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: approach pretty clearly, right, Like, you've got an acquired injury,
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: so we're going to now as a result, you have
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: lost some ability. So now we're going to create or
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: we're going to do some type of procedure or treatment
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: that's going to restore at least some level of that ability.
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think you also see this a little
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: bit in the deaf community. People who have lost the
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: hearing might get cochlear implants. That means that, like they
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: could have navigated the world as a deaf person, they
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: chose to get surgery I really think like it's really
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: just not appropriate to impart values on people's decisions about
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: how they would like to move around the world, right,
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: Like if to them, they're like, I just I really
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: want my hearing. It's so important to me that I
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: have it. It's great that the deaf community exists, but
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: I want to have my hearing, and a cochlear implant
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: will give me that. Like, I would not begrudge someone
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: making that choice. And the people who are in the
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: deaf community who say, like, my deafness is not a problem,
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: I am. I am happy being in this community. I'm
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: perfect happy navigating the world where there are accommodations for
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: people where hearing is not a way that they interact
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: with that world, And like good for them, Like that
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: is a perfectly legitimate choice for them to navigate the
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: world in a way that they would like to navigate it.
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: So it's just I think we just accept that people
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: approach these things in a way that works for them,
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: and we shouldn't begrudge them those choices. And I think
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: we still just accommodate the best we possibly can. So
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: I think, again, the medical model is not completely at
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: odds with the social model. Right, And so that's why
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: there's not a black and white distinction here. I think
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: you can have both of those things, and people may
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: make those choices. But I do think again it's worth
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: sort of making sure that people are they have agency
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: in this choice they feel like, like, rather than doctors
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: saying like, there's something wrong, I want to fix you,
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: the person coming in and saying like, I wish that
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: I could make this aspect of my life easier, and
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: the doctors saying like, yeah, let's see if we can
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: help you do that thing, and alternatively like, let me
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: do the best that I can to accommodate whatever situation
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: you have so that you can navigate this in a
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: way that's fairly seamless, right, and just be open to
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: whatever sort of makes sense, and really and we'll sort
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: of get to this, but like and roll in the
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: person like what they need.
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, there may be some things that are more difficult
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: to accommodate than others, or that are even counterproductive for
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: some impairments. Like what if improvement improvement and accessibility for
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: one impairment results in decreased accessibility for another, is there
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: a reasonable solution? Then they don't do anything. No of
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: course not. There's gonna be some kind of challenges here
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: and some balances here that we have to look at.
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of like kind of pros and cons
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: and weighing the risks and benefits of these situations. But
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: it shouldn't be somebody else making that decision. It should
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: be the person that's like directly going to be impacted
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: by that decision that gets to make the decision based
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: on those risks and benefits, the pros and cons and
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: all that.
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, I mean I think you can have people
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: and again this strikes me as being some a libertarian,
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: but I think you're gonna have be people who see
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: this as like, Okay, so this person comes in and
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: they want this accommodation, but that means this person comes
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: in and that accommodation doesn't work for the Like this
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: person who has a hearing impairment of some sort, they
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: want us to add text, but that means this person
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: who has a vision impairment, they now can't read the
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: thing that we've added texts to because they have a
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: different impairment. So like, let's just not let's not do anything.
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: We're just going to do things the way that we
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: do them could be the sort of approach that they take,
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, I just think that that's not the
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: way to go. You know, that doesn't make sense. We
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: don't necessarily turn to that. I really think the best
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: thing that you can do is include people with disabilities
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: from those communities and let them make the choices, request
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: recommendations and suggestions. Involve them in every step of the
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: planning and implementation of the systems that they need. Sometimes
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: they'll do all of the development of that, and that
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: might be a really good thing. Although I don't want
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: to feel like the entire onus should be on them,
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: But like a lot of times, what has happened in
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: the past as people said, oh, people have this disability,
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: let's change this for them, and they're sort of over
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: there going like that's not that's not what we need.
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: That's not the thing that we're asking for. Like that's
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: not helping. And it's like all we had to do
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: is say, like, all right, we designed the system this
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: way that seems to not be working. How could we
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: do this better for you?
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: Like we're over here the designers, like you tell us
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: what would work and that would that would solve it?
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: Like that's all we have to do is include them
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: in the conversations. And I do think, like, as we said,
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: sometimes some accommodation makes another accessibility issue. They could clash
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: with one another. So sometimes what we'll just do is say, like,
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: let's create specific accommodations that may be available in case
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: they're needed in a space where like we designed it
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: the best we could. We know there's going to be
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: use cases where this doesn't always work. So let's see
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: if we can plan, you know, involve people in the
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: process where we plan for what if this doesn't work
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: the way that we hoped it would, what would we
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: need to do differently?
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: I think you nailed it, Okay, So I think it's
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: fairly clear where we fall on this. I don't know
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: if there's any ambiguity here. We I think we espouse
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: the social model.
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And if there is, then we've done a good
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: job of explaining, like we yeah, it should be the
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: social model, like it really it really really truly should
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: in like understanding that is like the front facing the
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: force that we should be using to really improve the
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: world around us.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean I really think like we think about
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: we design these systems and they don't work for some people,
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: and the moral model is like, well you you're screwed.
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: The medical model is like, we can fix you, and
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: the social model is like, let's just make that disability disappear.
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: Like the fastest, most effective way to get rid of
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: this is to build systems that make it so that's
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: not the impairment. Isn't a disability, right, that's the most
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: comprehensive way to do it. So anyway, that's clearly where
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: we fall. I think we're on board with that being
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: the case. Yeah, okay, sweet, all right, Well is that
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: all we have to say about disabilities or the models? Yeah, disabilities,
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: we got a lot coming on the bike, But for
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: the models of disability, I think we've covered and as
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: I've said, I think this will be pivotal for setting
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: the occasion for all of the other things we're going
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: to discuss inside of this space. But as we're closing
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: this one out, if you're a new listener, you may
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: not know that we do recommend some things, which I
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: think is a very fun part of each discussion that
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: we do, and we also have a little bit of
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: listener mail, so we're going to do those things. But
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: first I'm going to blame another ad. All right, let's
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: start actually with listener mail. All right. This one comes
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: from listener Letitia, who writes on quite a bit and
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: we love it. It's awesome and these are super fun conversations.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: And she writes, I was listening to some of your
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: old episodes and I came across the handedness episode. I'm
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: a lefty slash southpaw, and you are correct. We do
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: have some inconveniences, but it makes us that much more flexible.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: I won't use correction tape because it's a pain and
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: always unravels. So I use white out pens or liquid
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: white out because they make the sort of white out tape,
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: but it's only for this, really designed for right handed people,
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: and always unravels. So I use white out pens or
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: liquid white out because they make the sort of white
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: out tape, but it's only for this, really designed for
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: right handed people. I take paper out of binder's when
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: I write, gone through a ton of pens to figure
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: out which ones won't smear. But life has become more
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: convenient with the amount of technology we use every day.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: I don't write much. I guess if there's anything i'd
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: wish right handed people would do more to make our
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: lives easier as to let us sit at the head
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: of the table or far left of the table when
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: we eat so we don't knock elbows or take the
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: only left handed desk. My biggest pep even school was
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: when the right handed person took one of or something
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: the only left handed desk in the class. I grew
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: up Catholic, and when I started Catechism, I made the
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: sign of the Cross with my left hand and gave
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: the nun a coronary. I got smacked with a ruler
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: once or twice, but I'm too stubborn to change hands.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: My grandfather was a left handed shortstop baseball player, and
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: he had some major advantages when he played. I'm not
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: that athletic. I can't say if my handed uh handedness
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: was helped here. I also wanted to let you know
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: that horses have a dominant side. Horses will pick up
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: a canter easier on one side versus the other, or
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: stumble on their non dominant side. Thanks for all the
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: great stuff you all keep putting out, and I look
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: forward to listening to today's episode on Halloween Masks. Ooh yeah,
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: so apparently that was when they wrote this. Yeah, what
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: an awesome follow up. Yeah we I don't remember when
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: we recorded that. I think it was years ago at
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: this point, but what an awesome story. Yeah, the and
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: and we were just talking about being left handed as
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: it relates in this episode. Ye to the idea of
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: like disability and thinking of it that way. Something else
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: I didn't mention it here is like being gay was
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: thought of as being disability, and like why would he
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: fall in love with be a disability?
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: But that's that's how they that's how they approached it.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: Fortunately that went away. And that's kind of another example
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: of like if we just don't think of like sometimes
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: we treat things as disabilities that they they just aren't.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: They're not even in bronments like it's just again and
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: unless and accept in the case where we treat them
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: as if they are that way. But really good email.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: Thank you for writing in as always really appreciated and
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: really good stories here. I love the idea of doing
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: the like the side of the cross with your left
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: hand and then none, just like throwing a temper tantrum
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: is very funny.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I could see that happening, you know. I'm glad
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: you brought up your your shortstop family member, because as
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: a baseball player myself, yeah, like lefties were encouraged. Yeah,
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: like if you were a left handed pitcher, they wanted
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: left handed pitchers because it was harder to bet against
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: right because of where the ball was coming from. But
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: if you were a left handed batter, it wasn't as
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: much of a problem. Like they really wanted left handed
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: batters too, because oftentimes left handed batters were hitting the
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: right field, which was usually like I don't want to
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: say the weakest fielder, but you had you did, that
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: person didn't get a lot of the plays because the
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: right field was like not where you're hitting a lot
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: of balls. So lefties were like are like gold in baseball,
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: I mean like even better, like you've got like you know,
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: when you have somebody who can like switch hit. That's
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: people love that too, So right, Yeah, that's I'm so
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: glad you brought that up because as somebody you grew
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: up playing baseball, like, lefties were always like, oh you're
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: a lefty, Okay, you got a pitch like they made
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: that happen.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I have heard that as well, because handedness
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: is actually like a strategic aspect of the game.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, you really is you.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: It kind of comes at a premium to try and
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: create a mismatch for the other team and their ability
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: to navigate this the players you've selected to have certain positions. Yeah, so, yeah,
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: it is. It is kind of a really interesting phenomenon
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: that something like that would spring up.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: But super fascinating.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, what a great email. If you would like to
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: tell us your fascinating stories that reference old episodes we've
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: put out, you should definitely do that by emailing us
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: at wwdwwdpodcast dot com. But we are not done because
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: we haven't even recommended some things yet, so it's time
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: to start doing that.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, recommendations. My recommendation is another creative pursuit. I truly,
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: you know. I feel like ever since I've read quest
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: Loves Creative Quests, I've just been like, oh, yeah, go
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: do the thing. Go do the thing that's like creative
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: and fun and interesting. And more recently, with the discovery
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: of this this software program called easy Drummer, my friends
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: and I have been able to record more music and
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: so I'm finally you know, for years and years and
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: years I wanted to write and record my own solo
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: stuff and all that, and I'm finally doing that, and
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: it's been a lot of fun to kind of explore
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: and learn these new behavioral cusps that go along with it,
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: like learning how to record into a computer with instruments
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: that sound good, learning how to program drums that sound
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: nice and that follow like certain type, Like playing with
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: all this stuff has been really cool. So my recommendation
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: is writing and recording your own music or whatever creative
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: pursuit you're doing, but specifically writing and recording your own music,
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: because it is a lot of fun something I've learned.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: And I saw a talk many years ago from I
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: believe it was Alan Neringer, Yeah, it was Alan, it
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: was doctor Allen, and he was talking about lag schedules
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: and how Picasso used lag schedules to shape his paintings
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: in some situations and you can see like the errors,
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: because sometimes what you'll see in paintings is like people
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: will paint over errors or mistakes and paintings, and you
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: could see that sometimes in the different layers. And one
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: of Picasso's things, like you would paint something and it
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: didn't work, it didn't reinforce them essentially, and then he
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: would paint something else and that didn't reinforce them, and
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: so he would kind of continue until he found the
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: thing that was reinforcing. And so he was kind of
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: talking about how lag schedules work for painters and artists
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: and the same is true for musicians. So in this process,
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: I've learned that, oh yeah, this doesn't sound right, I'm
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: gonna play around with it. I'm gona mess around with
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: it until it sounds like I wanted to sound. And
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: that's been a really cool experience. So that's my recommendation,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: write and record your music because it is really truly
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: a lot of fun.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: Cool and it sounds like. A sub recommendation is find
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: an easy drummer.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, easy, yeah, finding these drummers the yeah,
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: the software is called easy Drummer, So like, yeah, find
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: an easy drummer, I'd like, I mean, if you if
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: you like, if you're good with rhythm, you know.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, all right. I'm recommend an album that just
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: came out. This is from I guess you would call
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: this a heavy metal group, the Acacia Strain. The new
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: album is called You Are Safe from God Here and
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: it is I love this band, I really really do.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: This is this is mostly slow, absurdly over the top
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: like doom and gloom lyrics. Yeah, that are just to me.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: They're very it's like funny, like the way that they
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: do things. I think that they're fun and silly and
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: really enjoyable. And I just I love this band and
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: this album they've put out. I think this is the
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: heaviest and most creative thing they've ever done. It has.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: It just feels like they really went for it. They
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: they like just really were pulling out all the stops.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: There's most of the songs on here really short. They're
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: like two minutes, two and a half minutes maybe, and
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: then they have one song that's like fourteen minutes long. Yeah. Yeah,
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: it's just absurdly extremely heavy, ridiculously heavy metal. It sounds
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: like they took their guitar strings and they just tuned
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: them down to flop around, like you could barely detect
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: their notes anymore. They're in like drop a yeah exactly.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: So if you're into very heavy metal music, I have
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: been just been really, really really impressed with this album.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: Basically it came out just over no I think just
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: three days ago at the time of this recording, and
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: I have stopped listening to it. I have just been
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: has been on a loop in my ears and making
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: me very happy. Maybe it was a week ago, but
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know. It hasn't been out for very long,
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: and I've listened to it many, many, many times, and
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: it is fantastic. So if you're a fan of like
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: super ridiculously over the top heavy heavy metal, that's where
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: you go. And for those people who were like the
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: insanely fast metal, this is not insanely fast. There are
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: some fast ish parts, but it's mostly very slow and
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: just very chuggy.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that. A big fan of chuggy, A big.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: Fan of Chuck. All Right, that's what I have to
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: say about heavy metal music and writing and recording your
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: own music. And we've started on our models of disability.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: As I said, reach out to us and tell us
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: your thoughts. If you joined us on Patreon, you get
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: early episodes, ad free episodes, bonus content, and I will
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: read the list of names of people who support us
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: over there, which is primarily why most people do it,
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: I think. And so a giant thank you shout out
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: to our wonderful patrons, which includes Mike m Megan, Mike T, Justin,
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley, Kiara and Charlie. Thank you
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: all for being support as of our as it. It
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: really helps us do the show and we cannot thank
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: you enough for how much we appreciate what you do.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: You're like truly the best people, truly the best.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much to my team of people writing
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: in fact checking from Shane and myself. Thank you for
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: recording with me today.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: Shane, Hey, anytime, happy to be here.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: Our social coordinator is Eva Wilson, and our audio engineer,
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: who is extremely good at making audio engineering, is Justin.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: So thank you Justin for all the awesome work that
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: you do.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: Truly beautiful.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: Of course, thank you all for listening. I think I
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: said all the things about supporting us, like subscribe, rate review,
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: tell a friend all of that steel friends phone and
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: subscribe to us for them. All of that works. Is
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: there anything I am missing or anything you like to
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: add before we wrap this one up?
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: No, not on my end.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: All right, catch us next time. We're gonna keep talking
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: about disabilities. But for now, this is all we have
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: to say. So this is Abraham and this is Shane.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: We're out. Doya, you've been listening to why we do
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: what we do. You can learn more about this and
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: other episodes by going to WWDWWD podcast dot com.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an awesome day.