Latest / The You Project / #2180 Reading People - Dr Lillian Nejad

Transcript

#2180 Reading People - Dr Lillian Nejad · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I got a team. It's a you project. If is
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: already angry at me, we haven't even started. I just
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: got reprimanded. I just got told off four seconds before
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: we went live. Doctor Lillian Najade is here, one of
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: our favorites, okay, our favorite clinical psychologist. Hi, Doc, how
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: are you good?
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: How are you? Yeah?
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: I'm good? Thanks?
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: How are you?
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Tom?
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: I'm fabulous, Lilian, Thank you for asking.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: You're welcome.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: I was going to get to you, but grudgingly, but
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: grudgingly after you told me off. You scolded me like
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: a six year old in grade two. Oh, grade one.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Grade one is like the second year of school, isn't it?
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: It was a while ago for me. We'll come to you, Tiffiley, Doc.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: What have you been up to? How are you? What's news?
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Are you still married? Is it still shaky or you know?
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Have you repaired the damage.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: Series of preparing? Other than that, I've had an old
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: friend visit from the US, which was really great. And
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: I've been watching a lot of sports.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: What do you oh? Of course? And have you been
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: watching the World Cup at all? Yes?
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Absolutely so. I've seen America and Australia win, which I
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: was very excited about. And the NBA as well, with
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: the name.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: What what about the NIXT dude?
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Incredible?
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Wow. So TIFF probably doesn't pay a lot of attention,
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: as you don't need to. But they just won the playoffs,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: so the first time in how many years, like seventeen.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Nineteen seventy three, and they won the championship.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: Nineteen seventy three. Okay, so I was a little bit out.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: So nineteen seventy three is fifty three years ago. That's amazing.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: And went five games and they won in the fifth
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: and it was pretty tight.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: And well they kept coming back and most most of
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: the games that they won, they were behind most of
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: the game. So it's pretty incredible.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: What about the amount that people pay to be at
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: that game, Like a shitty seat up the back, top
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: top in the rafters is like.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: Ten grand I didn't even know how much of what?
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, the people like Courtside and right
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: by courtside are paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: a seat for two hours. Wow or whatever it is.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: That's the only famous people up there or billions?
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: True? Yeah, there's not too there's not too many. I
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: was going to pick a career or a trade, and
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: then that would have just got me in lots of trouble,
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: so I won't be doing that.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: You can say psychologists were going to be a lot
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: of psychologists.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's say that. Let's say that he knows doctor
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: Field could have been there. He's got heaps of cash.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: Oh sure, for sure, he's not. Really, he's not actually
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: a psychologist anymore, isn't he.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: No, he had a personality, Yeah he had to what I.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: Think he had a do you register? Like? You can't
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: do or say certain things as a psychologist, and having
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: your own show makes it really hard to abide by
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: certain regulations.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: Isn't it funny that, Okay, you're a psychologist, you can't
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: say all this stuff. So let's just undo that bit.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: You've still got a psychology degree or master's or whatever
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: he's got, but now you can say whatever you want.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: It's funny. I did a gig a few years ago.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: I can't remember what the name of it is, but
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: it was for psychologists in Victoria. Obviously you weren't part
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: of that, but it was organized by a lady called
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Joe Fleischer who's a clinical psychologist. She asked me to
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: speak at this conference that they had, I think it's annual. Anyway,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: went there, and I was a little bit scared because
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking, I'm a non psychologist talking to a room
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: of psychologists, among other things about you know, in general
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: terms human behavior. Yeah, I'm like, and obviously in psychology
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: you look through certain lenses and the that I talk
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: and the way that I is not the right term,
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: but treat or talk to or you know, coach people
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: is definitely not within any specific psychological box or protocol.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: And I was really worried about how do I build
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: connection and rapport and trust with this group, because they're
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: all going to go, who the fuck are you to
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: tell us about anything about how humans work because you
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: own a gym and we're psychologists. Well, but anyway, so
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: I started there and I went, well, clearly, I'm not
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: a psychologist. I don't have your training, and I don't
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: look through the window or the paradigm that most of
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: you do by virtue of you know, largely your training
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: and your academic kind of journey. So I'm just going
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: to share my thoughts blah blah blah. And I said,
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: but the one thing we have in common is that
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: everyone that comes to us, either as an excise scientist
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: or as a clinical psychologist, is that everyone wants to
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: change in some way. Like the common goal is I
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: want to be different or better or less stressed or
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: metaphysical or mental or emotional or all of that shape.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: What does that mean? So I just told them a
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: series of stories and anecdotes and experiences and observations and
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: what I learned and what the clients learned. And it
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: was one of the best gigs I've done. And one
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: of the funny things was, pursuant to your comment about
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: doctor Phil, at least ten of them came up and said,
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: I wish I had the freedom to say what you
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: have the freedom to say, because I agree with you
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: and I think like that, but I can't say that.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: I can't.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, there's so many things that you can't
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: say because that's your opinion. That's not science. And I'm like, yeah, well,
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: thank god that I'm not in that box, because one
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't fit in that box. I'd be no good
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: in that box. I'd be banned in the first week
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: of practice.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: Well, it plays out in lots of different ways, but yeah,
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's also like just how people talk about themselves,
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: so not even just talking about behavior, but just talking
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: about what they do as it, you know, how they
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: market themselves, what they promise, you know, in terms.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: Of what's a no no for a psychologist that people
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: might not think of much like what's something that you
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: really shouldn't do that that people might not be aware of.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: So one of the well, one of the things that
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: we're not allowed to do is call ourselves experts, right.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: But one of the things that maybe people don't really know,
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: but it's in a lot of marketing material, is we're
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: not really allowed to promise specific outcomes. So so a
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: lot of people who aren't psychologists or who aren't in
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: a regulated field will say things like transform yourself and
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: six weeks or do this course and you will achieve abcde. Well,
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: we can't say definitively that those outcomes will occur if
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: you do something that we deliver, right, So that if
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: you if you're just comparing you know, like what a
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: psychologist would put out there as let's say an anxiety
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: program and then what somebody who is at a psychologist
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: who doesn't have the regulatory aspects puts out Uh, it
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: does put us at a disadvantage. Because not not that
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: we I would want to make definitive. So I don't
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: think it should change for like for it to be
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: looser for us, because I think that that's to help
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: protect the public and be honest about you know, what
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: the potential outcomes can be. So it should be tighter
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: for everybody else. It's if the rental health related.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, one of my big heights is people. And there
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: are many of them, inflamers and the like who say
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: things like I change lives. I'm like, oh, I hate
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: that so much. I tell people I've never changed one life,
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: because all the people that change their lives are them
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: CURW and I and TIF. We talk to people about
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: their stuff, and we share ideas and thoughts and stories
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: and information and science and research, and we try to
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: have meaningful interactions that might lead to behavioral change, which
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: might lead to some kind of positive outcome on planet them.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: But never ever do I go. I don't prescribe anything
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: other than exercise, which I'm qualified to prescribe. But I
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: don't prescribe things to anyone, even when it comes to food.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: And I know a lot about food, but I'm not
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: a dietitian, right, So yeah, I think that. But I
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: think also when you're like hopefully TIF or me or
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: you hopefully we do this is like we actually care
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: about you. I actually care about you, and it's not
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: about the dough. Yes, I get paid. I get paid
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: some things. I get paid lots for some, a little
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: bit for others, and I get paid nothing for quite
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: a few things that I do, which I'm very happy
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: to do, including this show. Kind of get paid, but
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: not really is then. I think when people just whether
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: or not you're a psychologist as a psychiatrist or clinical
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: therapist or whatever you are, people just know whether or
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: not you're the real deal anyway, like you know, paying
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: or not paying. People are going to go, yeah, sure
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: she's got a PhD. She's a clinical psychologist, but she's
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: a really good person and she gets me. And it's
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: not it's not a transactional relationship, although technically it might
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: be operationally experientially, it's not like the people that I
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: trained for. You know, all of my relationships on a level,
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: if you're being completely object with my clients were transactional
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: in that I did something with them and for them,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: and they gave me dough. But ironically it was never
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: about the money, Like the money was just a byproduct.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: You know, we never advertised, we never marketed like Harpers
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: as an organization. And you know, at one stage, early days,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: we were the biggest of our kind in the country.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: We never ran one ad. We didn't have we didn't
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: have you know where people have got to pay up
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: front for ten you've got to lock in and here's
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: our cancelation policy. And like we would talk to people
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: about that, but there was no If someone rings me
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: at five point thirty in the morning and goes, my
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: kid's been spewing all night, I can't make my six,
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to go, well, you owe me a
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: hundred bucks anyway, fuck your kid. So it's it's like
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: I go, of course, go look after him or her.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: I'll just put my feet up and have a coffee. Yeah.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: So you know, I'm like, I'm in a nice way.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: I care about the kid, but I don't care about
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: the hour off.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm very similar. I mean I agree that I think.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: I mean therapy or group work or you know, skills training,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: it's a collaborative process. It's not like you said, the
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: facilitator or the psychologist or the professional give like doing
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: the work. It's actually the people doing the work, and
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: they have the agency to either, you know, like do
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: things or not do things, or make changes or not
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: make changes. And if they do happen to have some
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: positive outcomes, it is because of them.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. I had. As I told you before,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: I was in Queensland doing some work over the weekend
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: and I met up with one of my friends who's
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: a literally a brain surgeon, a neurosurgeon, doctor Alex and
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: big bloody coincidence, one of the ladies who was in
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: my program is a doctor. Obviously I can't say who,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: but she was going to purely coincidentally. Everyone's like, we
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: finished Saturday, so the program was over and we're all
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: just chatting. What are you doing? What are you doing?
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Where are you going? I said, I'm meeting up with
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: a couple of friends of mine. Ago the world's best
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: looking neurosurgeon, because he's like forty and stupidly good looking.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: And I know this sounds judgmental, but he doesn't look
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: like he wears like cool clothes, like four hundred dollars
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: T shirts and jeans and glass Everything's like he looks
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: like a bloody model. You would never go pick that
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: guy's vocation or job and you'd go neurosurgeon. Like that's
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: going to be the last out of one hundred guesses, right.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: And I know if you watch Grey's Anatomy you might
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: expect them to look like that.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: That's not real, you know, that's pretend, right. Anyway, the
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: bottom line is this lady was going to see him
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: and she said, you know, he's amazing, And it wasn't
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: about anything other than he just he's amazing with people, like,
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: he's a great communicator. He's also apparently a very very
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: good neurosurgeon. But she didn't talk about any of that.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: She just said he's nice. He's a great guy, you know,
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: you know all that kind of stuff. So anyway, enough
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: about us, Cook, what have you been doing? It's been
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen you since ever, like three four days.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: I've had Papa Bear.
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: I've had Papa Bear over since last Tuesday, so I've
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: been bunking down taking him for breakfast. We went down
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: to Queens Cliff yesterday, saw Mark Seymour singing my song again.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: It was fabulous.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: That nice.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: How is the old guy? Well? I saw him the
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: other night for dinner and he was going great guns.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: He's going great guns from about six or about seven
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: twenty and then he hit the wamp and then he
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: was like he was just nodding off at the table.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: I went, well, it's time to go. And he's a
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: sweetheart though. He's such a nice man, your dad, but
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: yeah he is. And I was taking the piss a
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: little bit and I was having fun with him. I
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: was talking to him about lady friends and may not
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: be getting up to at the special place that he
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: lives at. And he knew exactly what was going on,
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: and he was all over it, and he was having
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: a little bit of a chuckle. He's like, I'll keep
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: that to myself, but thanks for inquiring.
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: The joke was on you, there, wasn't it, because you
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: thought all that was going to go over his head.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: I didn't think it was. I'm saying it to make
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: you laugh, but he actually was laughing because he got it.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: He's like totally switched on. They underestimated his cognitive capacity
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: and his sense of humor. And I will just say
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: before we jump into the conversation proper, you said that
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: you went and saw Mark Seymour. Of course you trained
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: Mark Seymour. For a long time. He's been on this show.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: He's been on your show multiple times. And his last
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: album was called The Boxer, named after typ and Roll
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: with the Punch's very own Tiffany and Cook. So he's
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: actually got a He wrote a song about her, and
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: it's a great song called the Boxer. And did he
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: play it on the Weekend? Yep?
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: Second song in probably the best rendition I've ever heard
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: of it. He just gets better and better.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Seriously, did he know you were there?
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd send me a message and then I popped
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: out and said hello. After it was a very funny.
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: Dad bought a hat and I was going because I
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: was saying to Dad, do you want to you want
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: to grab something from merch? And this bloke walk past.
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: I said, I think he's over there, and he goes, oh, yeah,
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: Mark's over there. You might be able to get it autograph
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: and I just chuck to myself. I'm like, that's very funny.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: Did you go, yeah, he might get an autograph from me,
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: but yeah, we'll see how that goes.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: How special to have a song like done for you?
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: That's incredible.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: Not only that the album cover is her what see
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: over TIFF's left shoulder. Oh yeah, like in our screen
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: on the right there you go, yes, which is terrible
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: for our audience. But because so what we'll do everyone,
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: just so you know what we're talking about. TIF take
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: get an image of that and chuck it in the group.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: So if you go to the U project Facebook group,
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: if you're not a member, why you not a member?
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: Become a member because it's so good. It's the coolest
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: spot on the web. Go over there. If it was
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: actually cool, I wouldn't say cool, would I? Because that's
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: an uncool word. Isn't it ironically uncool to say cool?
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: Not dissimilar to the word groovy. Anyway, it's fully sick.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: It's fully sick. Over there, tip, we'll put up a picture.
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: Some might say it's grouse harps if we go that's very.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: Arsy grouse grouse is I feel like that's a Latro
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: valley word, but it has permeated the entire culture.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: That was one of the new words I had to
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: learn when I moved here.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: I'm like, what, it's a little bit desert boots and moccasins.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: Now it's a little bit outdated, but some people keep
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: breathing life in it all right, I was going to
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: talk to you. I want to talk to you today
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: to feel free to jump in. So one of the
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: things that we spoke about over the weekend is this
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: idea around a theory of mind, which is just us
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: understanding or having an insight into someone else's reality in
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: the moment or how they think, or But if we
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: zoom out from that kind of micro to the macro
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: of in general terms, like in general kind of public conversation,
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: we would expand that out more broadly to reading people.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: And we oh, he reads people well. And I said
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: to you before we had a chat, and I said,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: which is quite often an erroney assumption, may assumption. Maybe
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: I'm better than average, who knows. But people get scared
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: to talk to me because they think I'm reading them
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: in real time. So they get quite self conscious because
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: they think I can just look at them and I
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: know everything that's going on in their mind, which of
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: course is completely true. So be very afraid it's not true.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: So let me just start by saying reading people is
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: not a scientific term. It's not a scientific area of research,
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: but it is I guess the term is almost like
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: a big bucket of scientific research that spans like social perceptions,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: social cognition, emotional research, nonverbal communication, impression formation, thin slicing,
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: thin slicing, which is it's like making rapid social judgments
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: based on a just even things like you see three
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: seconds of someone on a real and you have an
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: opinion or a thought or an observation or an impression
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: of them. That's that's called thin slicing, or theory of
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: mind which I just spoke about, or empathic accuracy or
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: person perception, judging people on traits and behaviors and states
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: and intentions, and like, there's a whole lot of underlying
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: research in diverse but related areas which where just for
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: this conversation going to pull into the idea of being
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: able to read people. So it's not a thing. It's
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: actually an intersection of a myriad of variables cognitive, emotional, psychological,
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: spatial awareness, situational awareness, context, all of those things. But
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: do you get the same doc Do you get where
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: people are a bit intimidated because they think, oh my god,
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: don't look at me. You're going to know what I
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: did in nineteen seventy five.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, it is an occupacial hazard, I think because
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: it is probably the number one question I get asked
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: first after I introduced myself and say I'm a psychologist.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: The number one question is are you analyzing me or
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: some form of that? Yes, and so I think it's
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: akin to reading people, like I think maybe analysis goes
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: a bit further, like I'm drawing conclusions about them as.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Well, if I'm just talking about broadly in a social content. Yeah,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: it's like you know when you like many times I've
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: sat down with somebody for the first time they've come
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: to meet me or talked to me about something. And
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: I've said this before on the show. I can tell
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: straight away with I would say almost one hundred percent accuracy.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: If somebody's more nervous than normal, like they're a bit apprehensive,
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: a bit nervous. There's a bit of avoidance of eye contact,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: there's a little bit of shifting and shuffling and tapping
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: and very short answers and maybe elevated breathing and a
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: whole lot of stuff. And I just go, how you feeling,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: And they're like, I go, honestly, how are you feeling that?
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Cal I'm nervous, and I let's talk about that.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I get that too. I think it's I get
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: one of three I guess reactions is one they tell
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: me everything about their life as soon as The second
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: is they don't want to really speak to me at all,
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: might just remove themselves from the conversation. And then the
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: other is like curiosity. I think because of my you know,
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: my answer to are you analyzing me? Is generally no, not.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: But what I say is not more than what anybody
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: would do in an interaction where they're meeting someone. And
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: I think that this is what you're getting at, like
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: we are all reading people, like that's what we have,
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: that's what we do naturally when we meet somebody. So
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: what I tell people is I'm not when I'm not
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: working and I'm in a situation where I'm meeting people,
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: I'm not doing that more or less than anyone else.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: I don't. I think, like, obviously I'm not in their
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: head and I don't know how much they're doing it.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: But what I can say that I might be doing
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: less of is that when I am reading people, I'm
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: doing that as much as possible in a nudjudgmental way.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So but as you said, well, we're all doing that, right,
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: We're all you know, it's not even conscious. You go
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: in and you see, like, because I'm a creature of
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: habit as, you know, I go to the same cafe
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: every day and there's about three baristas that get my
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: tick of approval. If there's a fourth one in there,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: I'm like, who the fuck are you? You're not making
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: my coffee. I don't know, I don't know you. I
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: don't trust you how long you've been making you know.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Obviously I'm not saying this, but all of a sudden,
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm thrown. I'm like, I like my coffee a
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: certain way and there's three people, you know, which is
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: complete bullshit, but all of a.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: Sudden it actually is it? No, I totally understand what
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: you're saying.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: You know, you know what I'm saying. It's not about them.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: It's all about me because I'm just worried about me.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: So I'm being totally selfish. But at the same time,
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: you know, you're always trying to ascertain in real time
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: because your brain's built for detecting threats, like is anyone
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: and it might not be are they going to kill me?
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: It might be are they going to fuck up my
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: coffee and therefore fuck up my morning, which, of course
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: aren't related, yeah, you know, and.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: We're also trying to make connections. So we're trying to
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: figure out, you know, and or you know, what people
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: think above us of other people of the world. And
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: sometimes we're making assumptions or often making assumptions, but we're
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: using like objective and subjective information to figure it out,
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: like what you know, what people are thinking or feeling
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: or wanting or intending and and I think there are
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: some objective measures of that. But even with the objective
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: things like what what's their expression, or like are they smiling?
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: Or what are the things that they're doing? Are they
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: being really kind?
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: So did you ever see a show? Did you ever
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: see a show called Lie to Me? It was a
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: British show. The character's name was doctor cal Lightman. What
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: was his real name, tim Roth? Tim Roth. I don't
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: know why I have all these little factoids. It ran
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: from twenty eleven to twenty thirteen, so or maybe yees.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: So it's like thirteen years old now, so it's old.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: But I love this triggered or perhaps reignited back then
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: my curiosity around. Like for me, I love to be
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: able to figure out what people are telling me that
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: they're not telling me, you know, so, what's the information,
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: what's the message, what's the what are you trying to
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: share with me? Or perhaps not trying to share with me? Like,
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: what's all the nonverbal stuff? Right? And they go, you know,
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: by the way, everyone that old chestnut communications ninety three
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: percent nonverbal, completely not true, completely unscientific, not founded. But
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: it's probably fair to say that we get more information
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: or intel or data or evidence from people more through
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: behavior and a whole lot of other you know, facial expressions,
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: micro expressions, body anguage, voice, toned, yeah, than we do
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: through the actual words, especially on day one, because when
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: you think, like with you is someone depending of course
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: on the patient or the human, like day one is
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: a very different person from day twenty seven or session
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: twenty seven, you know, so they're the same human, but
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: the dynamics have changed, and now reading that person is
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: a different prospect to the day one version.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so true, And I think like it brings
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: up that whole idea of like first impressions and how
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: much weight is on a first impression and how what's
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: the saying Like it's you know, it's something about first
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: impressions are basically accurate and you know, like fixed in
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: some way. But I don't. I don't think that that's
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: true at all. It's quite a silly thing to think.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: And I think that that's really important when when we
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: are reading people, that we are aware within ourselves that
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: what we're reading might not be representative of somebody, and
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: that we can get really fixed if we have a
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: strong reaction to someone, especially if it's a first impression.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: But it's important to stay flexible and be open to
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: being wrong, like when we're you know, getting new information
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: or have different experiences with a person or people.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: And we also need to realize that we're reading people
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: through our own biases and fears and all our own bullshit,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: Like I'm always looking through the Craig window, which is
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: as blurry as fuck, so you know, I'm not being
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: objective about anyone that I'm meeting, because my experience, my thoughts, ideas,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: impressions are all a subjective part of me. So having
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: an awareness around that. But then they tried to so
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: that guy that show was based on research by a
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: guy called Paul Ekman, who all his research was around
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: micro expressions and what those and then the shi the
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: show lied to me was basically about this fictitious character
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: who could read people with pretty much one hundred percent accuracy,
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: and they'd talk and he'd watch video or he'd interview
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: them in real life and he's like, Oh, he's definitely
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: lying or she's definitely guilty, or she's or whatever, right,
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: And it sounds amazing and like, I want to be
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: that guy, even that guys. So his research was really
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: interesting and extensive, Paul Ekman's, but it turned out that
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: a lot of it was based on assumptions, Oh, this
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: expressions means that. And then when you go broader into
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: the way that different people in different cultures and parts
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: of the world, what's represented on their face does not
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: necessarily correlate with a particular emotion like it does in
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: another part of the world, like especially Asian communities, their
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: facial expressions and the way that they might the correspondence,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: or the level of correlation varies between say compared to
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: a European face, right, not better, not worse, just different, right, So,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: like factoring all that in and so when people get
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: scared that they're being read, it's not likely that anybody's
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: reading you with a great level of accuracies. Panic knot and.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: It's also like you said, you mentioned you're looking through it,
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: you know, via the Craig window, and that's that's not
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: just one there's not just one window of the Craig house. Right,
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: You've got the window when you're hungry, and the window
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: when you're tired, and the window when you're stressed. And
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: and so does the other person. So you might be
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: reading somebody else and they're tired or hungry or stressed
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: or depressed or angry and in the moment, and so
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: you're not you're not reading them properly either, because they're
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: in a state that they might not normally begin. So there, Yeah,
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: there is so much nuance to reading people.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: What do you what do you think? I mean? Obviously
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: we can Obviously we can guide insights and perhaps more awareness,
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: more understanding. We can move the needle. And this is
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: going to sound ivally simplistic and really boring, but for me,
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: the biggest needle move was when I was or when
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: I am meeting people. Now, contrary to how it may
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: appear on this podcast, I've apologized, but is doing very
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: little talking that's not necessarily going to work in your field,
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: I suppose, I guess it might but because I think
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: for a long time I was an average listener. I
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: don't think I was terrible, but I certainly wasn't a
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: great listener. And just being able to, you know, as people.
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: Go just hold space, you know, and just shut the
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: fuck up and pay attention to telling me both verbally
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: and non Yeah, it is a lot.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: About listening and professionally, and you know, if you're connecting
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: with someone socially, it's about asking questions and being genuinely
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: curious and then asking follow up questions about what you've heard.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: And also I think one of the things that we
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: do in therapy often is we summarize what they said,
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: and it's to check their understanding. It's like one of
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: the ways of checking that we've got it right, not
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: their understanding, our understanding. So you know, we might hear
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: something and like you said, we might interpret it differently,
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: and so when we feed it back, they have a
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: chance of saying, no, that's correct, or no, you got
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: it wrong. So that's really helpful, I think, and maybe
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: that's one of the things that can I mean, that
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: would help with reading minds. Part of it should be
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: not just just not reading minds, but reading people is
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: when we hear the words and we see the behaviors,
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: and we notice the facial expressions, and we have our
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: own kind of assumption or interpretation or inference from that
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: that we actually check in if we're right and not
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: just leave with that impression. And that's what we would do,
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: what I would do in a professional setting. But I
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: think that that runs true in social settings, might just
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: be done differently. And also, you know, I recently went
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: to a panel about sales, and sales is all psychology.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: Sales is all about exactly what we're talking about. It's
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: about reading mind. It's about knowing what the customer actually
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: really wants, about listening to what they want, about not
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: focusing on what you're trying to sell or the solution
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: you're trying to sell, but what the actual problem is
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: for the person. And you can't be a successful salesperson
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: unless you know you're able to do that really well.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: So I think it you know this the skill of
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: reading people, but also understanding your flawed, you're imperfect, whatever
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: you're reading might not be true, and being able to
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: listen more, ask questions more, be curious more, and to
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: do that all in a really genuine way. So you're
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: not faking it so that you can there's not an
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: agenda underneath it. You're just actually trying to understand and
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: get to know somebody.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the underlying agenda is probably not the
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: right word. But the reason for the salesperson to be
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: there is obviously to sell. They're not there to so
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: you've got to go, well, they want to sell me something,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: that's their number one driver. But I think it depends
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: on how you go about that, of course, because you know,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: I think if I'm going into somewhere that sells products
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: or services, I know someone's going to try and sell
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: me something. I can't blame them for that because I
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: showed up right exactly. I think it's how they do that.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: And also, if you think more broadly, just outside of
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: the sales experience, think more broadly into retail broadly and
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: marketing and branding, and there's not an insignificant number of
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: neurosychs and sykes and even neuroscientists who are employed by
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: marketing big marketing teams to help them understand the mind
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: and the brain of consumers so they can manipulate them
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: to buy stuff. When you think of like a packet
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: of cereal. Well, have a look at the front of
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: the packet of cereal. Let's not mention a particular one,
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: but most of them are somewhere between average and fucking
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: terrible for you. But if you look at the front,
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: obviously it's the best thing you could buy. And Olympic
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: athletes eat it clearly because there's one on the front
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: and it's a gold medal product and it's got health
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: stars and it's got and then you go round to
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: the back and that tiny little box with the tiny
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: little writing at the bottom left of the product, where's
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: all the actual information? No selling, no marketing, because they
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: don't want you to read this bit because this is
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: the data. The front is the smoke show. The front
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: is a sales pitch.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think, like, yeah, I think that there's
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: ethical sales and there's unethical sales, and those are tactics
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: that are clearly unethical and people really need to understand
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: them from a young age otherwise.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: So yeah, So what would you say is at the
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: top of like if we I think, I think first up,
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: like first impressions as we call it in well in science,
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: but also outside science. First impressions. One of my studies
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: some of my research is around meta accuracy, around first impressions,
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: how I think people see me. So I went down
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: that rabbit hole quite deeply. But yeah, yeah, yeah, so
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: the space between how I think doctor Lillian sees me
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: and how she actually sees me. So my score, you know,
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: we use different kind of focuses behavioral, emotional, cognitive, social,
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: and I rape myself. I rate myself. Column one, column two,
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: I rate you, and then column three, I rate how
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: I think you see me. Right, So we've got these
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: three different columns, and you know, it gives it's it's
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: not definitive, it's not you know, mind blowing, but gives
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: us something of more accurate representation or an idea of
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: how we're seen by others.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: What are you rating? Whether are some of the questions
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: that you're like.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: Well, like, for example, I think I'm quite emotionally intelligent,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: and and I'm giving myself got it, you know, a five,
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: you know, and and that is you know, rating not
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: at all to vary or what And then and then
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: I guess how Then I take a stab at how
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: I think you see me, like my perception of your perception,
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: right right, yeah, yeah, of your perception and then there's
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: your actual opinion or idea or perception of me. And
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: really it's the gap between column two how I think
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: you see me and column three how you actually see me.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: That gives us some some insight, some insight, and there
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: are a lot of other variables around that. But for me,
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: I think I'm not I don't get too swept up
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: in the first impression. I've had lots of first impressions that.
• 37:29
  Speaker 5: Were wrong lots, and I think I'm not bad at this,
• 37:34
  Speaker 5: and then sometimes I go, no, I was completely wrong
• 37:36
  Speaker 5: because I thought he was this. Yeah, in fact, that
• 37:40
  Speaker 5: was a smoke show and it's actually this.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: And so for me, it's more about paying attention over time.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: It's more about people's without sounding too judgmental, just observational,
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: their choices and their behaviors and their habits and their
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: lifestyle and you know, and you could analyze me the
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: same way, and you'd figure out, like if you knew
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: about how I eat and how I exercise, and how
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: I communicate and what I do for work and how
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: I treat people and how all those things, and you
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: just had that data but you didn't talk to me,
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: you'd probably have a reasonably accurate insight into what kind
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: of person I am and what motivates or doesn't you know?
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: And so for me, it's about data gathering, real data
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: and observation of behavior over time. Like what people do,
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: I'm always into. Yeah, what they tell me, I'm a
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: bit interested, But what they do, I'm way more interested.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: And if you really want to understand someone, and this
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: is not unequivocal, but pay attention to how they are.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: I'm really interested in how people are. This sounds weird,
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: but when no one's looking, like I care most what
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: you do, when no one's looking, when no one's cheering
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: you on, when you're not uh being judged or seen
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: or you can't get any accolades, you can't get any approval,
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: you can't create an impression because it's just you, and
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: obviously how do you get that information? But I'm that's
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: I'm always reflecting on myself as the gap between what
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: I'm like when I'm like today, I've spent nearly the
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: whole day alone, what that guys like versus what the
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: public gets.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: You know, you're the same person.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: Have you heard in Japanese culture this is not a
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: psychological construct, but it's like a cultural thing in Japanese
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: they talk about the three masks, right, So the three
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: versions of people. I created one before I heard about this,
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: which I just call the four cels. But it's basically
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: public you, personal you, private you, and secret you. You know.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: Public you is this you and me right here now,
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: TI right now. So that's the that's the version of
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: us that will let anyone see, anyone interact with that's
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: the that's the version of that we're comfortable to wheel
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: out to the world. Next, the next version is personal,
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: which is probably you know, anywhere between two and three
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: and maybe ten people, which is generally pretty close family
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: and or friends or both. Yeah. And then private you
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: is probably the you that you reserve for one person,
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: usually your your partner. It might be too, yeah, generally
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: that's it. It might be your your sister who you
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: and her are intertwined because you're just super duper close
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: or whatever. And then the last one is the last
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: one is secret you, and you never let that version
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: of you out. There's always something that you just keep
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: for you that nobody ever and we're not talking about
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: anything dark, which is not bad.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just read a book like I'm at a
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: book club. Because I wanted to start reading again, and
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: we've just read a book called The Things We Never
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: Say buy Elizabeth Stroud. And if people aren't, it's it's
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: easy read of you like books and a good decent story.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: This is kind of it actually is about that idea
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: of like the secret you I think, and you know,
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: a person realizing that everyone has a secret part of
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: them and that you don't actually know everything and they
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: don't know everything about you, and and the implications of that,
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: and that's the implications might be, you know, a loneliness
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: depending on what you're keeping to yourself. But yeah, I know,
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: it's really it is really interesting because I do think
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: that's true.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: Do you think people are more gunshy now because of
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: social media? It's like you can have a great intention
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: and say something, Yeah, but your only intention is just
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: to help or support or to share a thought or
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: an idea. There's no malice in it. Yeah, But nonetheless
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: somebody interprets it that way, as people do because we're
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: all humane. I misinter miss interpreted things, of course I
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: have you know, of course, of course, but I think
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: that has made some people less likely to be open
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: and to be vulnerable publicly I try. I try to
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: bring personal me to the show, not just I try
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: to be you know, if I'm being honest, of course
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: I'm not one hundred percent vulnerable, but I try to
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: be as vulnerable as I can be without being I
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: guess putting myself in harm's way or being inappropriate, do
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's like, yeah, this is
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: probably too much, you know, Like Tiff and I had
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: a podcast couple of weeks ago where we did a
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: deep dive on what's going on in my life. It
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: was quite unexpected, but it was and I didn't love
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: the experience, but it was a good experience. I didn't
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: love it, but I knew that it was probably good
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: for me, and I thought, and I think I even
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: wrote in the copy for the show, you're going to
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: like this or you're not going to like it. So
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: if you turn off in the first five minutes, I'm
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: not offended. But I probably got more feedback on that
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: episode than any of the last one hundred episodes because
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: people just resonated with where I'm at and what I'm
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: dealing with, and which is everyone goes through it, so
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: I'm not special and I don't need sympathy or attention,
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: but just that going, oh, well, you know what today
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: is actually really hard? Yeah, I know, the inspiration and
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: the funny and the motivation guy, but honestly, today's a
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: bit shit And I'm okay with that because tomorrow will
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: be less shit probably, And well, of course it's shit, Craig,
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: or of course it's shipped Tiff or Lilian, because this
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: is going on in your life. If you didn't feel
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: a bit shit, there's something wrong with you.
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And I think there's something about I mean definitely.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: I mean Brene Brown is like the you know, the
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: champion of honorability and coming and coming from a place
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: where she hated vulnerability and then researching it and seeing well,
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: this is like the foundation of connection and that's why
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: you get those responses. But also I think it's also
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: you're showing your audience how much you trust them by
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: telling them something really personal, and I think that that's
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: really connecting as well. And it's really relatable because we
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: all go through, you know, the similar challenges being humans
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: on this earth. So it's I guess sharing the load
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: of that can help, you know, just create again that
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: kind of sense of community and connection and not being alone.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: So yeah, So, but I do think that you asked,
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: does it keep people from social media? I definitely, like,
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: I definitely think it has an impact on what and
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: how you express yourself on social media. It definitely does
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: on because I have a number of things to think about.
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: I have to think you know that there's a number
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: of levels depending on who you are, Like I have
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: my kind of professional boundaries I have to think about.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: I have to think about the impact what I say
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: might have on the people I work with, or the
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: impact what I say might have on the people in
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: my family or my friends. So it's not just really
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: about me, although there might be things that I'm like, Nope,
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: I prefer to keep that to myself, you know, like
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: for sure, And also think, like like you said, I
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: think social media has become, or has all maybe has
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: been from the beginning, a place where people like purposefully misinterpret,
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: Like it's a provocative place.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: Some people with the intention of being a fan ended
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: They get out of bed and they're like, because if
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: I'm offended, and you know, all I'm doing is finding
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: things that bother me or offend me, then and I'm
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: attacking everyone who doesn't think like me, then I'm not
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: the problem, and I don't have to change. It's very
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: hard to get actual criticism. I'm not talking about hate. Yeah,
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: and to go, that's actually good. I've got lots of
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: feedback and criticism on this show, and a fair percentage
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: of it I agreed with because they would point out
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: something that I did or didn't do or whatever. I'm like, yeah,
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: that's yeah. I don't like hearing that. Yeah, but it's true, Like,
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: how can you grow and evolve if you never think
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: you're wrong? How can you grow and evolve and be
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: authentic and genuine and vulnerable and you know, if you
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: think like you have this predetermined drive to be right, Well,
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: that's that's actually anti growth. Like it's like you can't learn,
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: like you've made yourself unteachable because you know everything and
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: everyone who disagrees with you is the end of me.
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: And so now I've built this little psychological castle that
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: I fucking live in, and I've pulled up the drawbridge
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: and I'm going to shoot everyone who rocks up to
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: the castle. Tiff, I've got a question for you, Like
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: in the last year, correct me if I'm wrong, But
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: you seem significantly more open and maybe it's to do
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: with the Scottie stuff or not. But more vulnerable publicly
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: than you've ever been. Was that a conscious shift? Was
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: that an unintentional shift? Was that a byproduct of something else?
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: Or am I getting that wrong?
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: I think that's been the case for a while now
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: on my show, I've or I've I've been extremely.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: Okay. So we just had a little We just had
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: a little glitch, TIFFs, brain froze. The actual Internet was fine,
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: but she had a little episode. No that's not true.
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: Her brain is fine, but her Internet is less than fine.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: All right, Doc, We've got to wind up, but I
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: want you to maybe. So when I'm talking about reading people,
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: I'm really talking about gaining insight and understanding and awareness
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: for to create more positive personal interactions, right, Not because
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: we want to try and probe some dark secret component
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: of their brain and figure out the dirt.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: Right, which is social reason?
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, pro social See that's why you're the doctor.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: So have you got a kind of like the top
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: of my list would be probably depending on the individual,
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: because most people don't talk as much as you or me,
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: probably me the most, but like mine would be talk
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: less and pay attention to their behavior over time in
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: in a non judgmental way, but a kind of a
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: social and situational awareness way. What would you put near
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: the top of your list.
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: Well, I think I agree completely with what you said,
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: and if there were a few things in there that
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: I would put on my list as well, which is
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: nonjudgmental stance. So when you are noticing things or you
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: feel it an interpretation or a judgment come up, just
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: notice that and then change it to a non judgmental
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: stance and be open to that being inaccurate. Be flexible
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: around your impressions of someone, because, like you said, it
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: can change over time. And I certainly would be in
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: trouble if everyone judged me on my first impression. And
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: I certainly know that I've had first impressions and I
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: have eventually changed down the track, and I think just
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: being aware of that is really important.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: I feel like I create bad first impressions I seem
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: to have. I don't agree.
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: Now I was agreeing about myself. I don't. I actually
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: don't think I'm great at first impression.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, A lot of them. I feel like
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: like I've had a lot of people over the years.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: Ago I thought you're a bit of a dick, but
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: you're not. And I just thought you were some loud,
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: bullfed meathead alpha male, but you're not. You're quite complex
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: and complicated and caring and empathetic and all the nice things.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: But initially it was not that. And I'm like, that's
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: thank you. That hurts, but thank you because you're not
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: the only one to say that. So I need to
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: just acknowledge that and own that and do something about
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: that other than feel sorry for my self or be defensive. Yeah,
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: so that's that's for me. That's yeah. Can I unlearn?
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: Can I hear things about myself that I don't like
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: to hear without reacting or without being resentful or without
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: wanting to say something, And that's yourself. I'm quite good
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: at that now, but I was fucking terrible at it
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: because you know, I was just I was insecure and
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: I needed affirmation, not the opposite, you know, And did.
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: You actually change how you enter into situations so that
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: you improve your first impression? Like, did you actually do?
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: I'm just more aware. It's like, like, for example, the
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: weekend that we just finished, doctor Denise Vaness, who's a
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: geneticist and just a great presenter, amazing knowledge, blah blah blah.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: But she's super energetic, high octane, bubbly, Like you know,
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: she would say girly girl. I don't know if that's
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: an insult, but she would say that, and she's like
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: most of the audience was women. There was this whole fucking,
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: you know, high five thing, and it was great. But
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: if I show up and that's my energy too, we're
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: in trouble. So you know, mine was like she stood
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: the whole time and bounced around the room, and I
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: so I sat up the front of the room. Most
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: of the time. I'd get up to write a few
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: things on the board or I'd walk around. But probably
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: nine percent of my presenting it was there was only
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: twenty five people. It was a small group, but it
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: was almost like a twenty five on one coaching session
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: rather than a presentation per se. And so I've probably
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: the most bubbly or efferfescant I am is on this
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: show because I want there to be good energy on
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: the show as well. It's not that there's no role playing,
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: but yeah, like quite often I am not low energy,
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: but I'm yeah, it's a lot kind of quieter, thoughtful
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: version of me. Maybe I don't know if that's right.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: But yeah, rather than being which I never really well,
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: I kind of was, I guess like the motivation guy.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: Now I don't really want to be that. I don't
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: want to be that, and I talk to people about
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: the limitations of motivation all the time. But you got
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: your internet work and tiff.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: I hope, so it's only happens when you talk. Isn't
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: that weird?
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: I know, I don't. I have Well, I had TPG
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: work their magic last week, so clearly their magic did
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: not work.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: You need a refund. You need a refund.
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: I'm thinking, all.
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: Right, well we better we better wind up, Doc. I
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: always love chatting with you. I feel like we could
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: go on the longer.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: I always like to keep you guys.
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: We'll keep it there. We'll keep it there for now.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: How do people connect with you? What would you like
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: to make our audience aware of? I know you've got
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: a lot of great resources for people. Off you go.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: Why don't you check out Contain your Brain. It's an
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: app that helps people worry less, maybe also worry less
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: about their first impressions, and solve their problems more effectively.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: And it's free, so you can download it for free
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: from your app store, and I'm really proud of it.
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: I think it's really helping people. And we've got about
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: ten thousand people you just downloaded it already, and countries
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: recommending it to their citizens. And we don't collect any
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: user data, so it's private and safe as well. So
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: have a look at it and see if it helps.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: Contain your brain.
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: Contain your brain.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: If it is your brain contained, because it seems a
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: little bit.
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: Loose, it's just contained as I can manage it.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: I think it's it's free range, but it's being trained,
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: it's being contained, highly coachable. Well, thank you both, Tiff.
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: Sorry that technology shut the door on your words. I'm
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: sure you and I will do you and me one
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: very soon. Say goodbye affair, but TIF, thank you, Doc,
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: appreciate you. Contain your brain. Go and have a look
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: at that app. Go and benefit from all that wisdom
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: and insight. See you next time.
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: Look forward to it.