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Putting UDL into Practice: Designing Inclusive Learning with Kognity · IB Unplugged

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Welcome to IB Unplugged, a Kognity podcast for IBDP educators,
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that tackles your submitted questions and challenges by connecting you with
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experts and peers who share their ideas and stories from real classrooms.
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Hi everybody.
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Welcome to this week's bonus episode of IB Unplugged.
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Today we are going to interview
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Wayne Wright who is a learning designer at Kognity.
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So we wanted to take this week in this episode
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to really dive in a bit deeper from our last episode with Diane,
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where we talk about UDL and now focus that onto
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how UDL principles have helped design the way that Kognity structures
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their product, how we develop content and really,
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how the company operates and what we want to support in student learning.
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Yeah.
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And as you know, if you've been listening to our show,
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we're not always about like just pumping the products like,
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oh, you got to listen, you know, use Kognity.
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But instead, what we really looked at here is like as a teacher in the classroom,
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what are the ways that I can use something like Kognity to help implement
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a lot of this universal design for learning?
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If I really want to do that in meaningful and impactful ways,
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what are the ways to do it?
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And so, yeah,
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we wanted to chat with Wayne about how there's intentional scaffolding,
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intentional thought that goes behind, how are we putting this product together
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so that teachers can still facilitate some great learning in the classroom?
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So we think we've got some really great stuff for you here.
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We're really glad that you're here for this episode,
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and we hope you enjoy this bonus episode with Wayne Wright.
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We are
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having a special segment today with Wayne Wright from Kognity.
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We are having this conversation around UDL and it felt right
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to get to the source of who works with us in our company.
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So we got Wayne on the call to talk through a bit of his work
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behind the scenes at Kognity and some ideas with teachers.
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So we're really excited to have you on the podcast, Wayne, and thanks for joining.
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Yeah, thanks for having me. So, yeah.
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Do you want to kick us off by explaining a little bit about who you are
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and what you are actually doing at Kognity?
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Yeah, sure.
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So, my name is Wayne Wright.
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I live in the United States, and,
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but I am a learning experience designer, which basically
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when when we think about it, it's basically making sure that we have
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best practices in place to help teachers and learners be able to,
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work with the curriculum to make sure that,
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that students are actually engaging with it in a meaningful way,
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and that teachers have the insights that they need in order to be able
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to see the progression of students ideas over time within curricular materials.
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So that's kind of basic summary of what I kind of do at Kognity.
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Awesome.
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And when we, we've been talking a little bit with other people with regard
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to like universal design for learning versus differentiated instruction.
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And I know that Kognity does a lot of work to try to make sure that,
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just as you say, you've got instructional and pedagogical framework that supports
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what's going on in the textbook and the online resource that teachers can use.
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Can you give us kind of an overview here
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in terms of like, what are the intentions behind this and how the UDL practices
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integrate into the instructional and pedagogical framework?
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Great question.
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So I think, you know, UDL, you know,
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as we already know, is universal design for learning.
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Basically the big ideas here are about student
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epistemic agency, which is a kind of big term.
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So basically say like how do students, have authority over their learning,
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and contribute to evaluating themselves along the way?
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So like student ownership of that learning experience.
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And so when we think about this is when we develop curriculum
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to be able to have good agency, our students have good agency.
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There's a couple of big key things that need to happen.
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Students one need to be able to see themselves
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within the curricular materials.
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So like how do we connect students to what what they're going to be learning about?
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Because when it comes to content like content doesn't change, right?
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Like physics is physics, regardless of what what we're looking at, what,
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you know, different, whether it's IB or some other,
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curriculum out there.
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But how do we get students to connect to that?
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And so we first start with a connection to it,
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and then that kind of draws on then and then we say, okay,
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but how do we, with using UDL practices, help them to engage
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with the learning and then help them actually make good choices?
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So UDL is kind of like a great, tool and resource that we one
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we integrate within the curriculum as we design it.
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But then it's also a really great tool belt for teachers
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to be able to localize it to their personnel, like localized
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region, and also situated within what their students are doing as well.
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And I can expand that if you're interested.
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But yeah.
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Well yeah.
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So obviously there's the choice aspect.
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And you know, as a Kognity user I'm you know, as you mentioned
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that I'm thinking there's the text.
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Obviously there's videos.
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There's kind of like the interactives and the practices and that sort of stuff.
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Is that what you mean by the choice that students can kind of choose
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that sort of stuff?
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Or is it more of like once they have gotten into that, that's
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what allows them to engage in it in their own kind of pathway,
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because they recognize UDL is like, how do they engage with it?
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How do they how do we kind of represent the knowledge for them?
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And then what sort of action are they taking on that? Right? Right.
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So yeah.
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So the first bit before before students even get that kind of choice.
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Right?
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It starts with getting them engaged, which I think like when we think of IB,
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a lot of those our unit starts with like the big picture right.
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Kind of introducing students to these things.
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We we make sure that the curricular materials
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have you know, from a standpoint have things that students can relate to.
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In some of the examples that that we have within the, the materials.
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So it's something that students can connect to at a first glance.
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I think we're even as intentional within our, our images that we use, that
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we make sure that they're accessible, not just like, like, oh, I can read them
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and I can, I can see them, but I but that they're also something
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that students can connect to regardless of what culture that they come from.
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And being part of a global citizen.
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So I think that's the first bit, right?
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We have this connection that draws students in.
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But then when it
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comes to student choice, I think the IBDP does a great job
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about thinking about the application
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of the materials that that they're engaged with.
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So, like, you know, within the IB program, students then take these things.
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They have, different projects that they're involved with.
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And so they are using the application of what they're doing
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within the Kognity program to be able to then apply it to,
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an area that they're, you know, specifically interested
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in to dive deeper in, into some of those subjects.
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So I think one, the IB does a great job at trying to do this.
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So then Kognity’s big goal is making sure that we're providing enough
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good content and enough good ways where students can see the connections
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that they can make so that they have some choice and agency
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and and being able to come up with good ideas, in those areas.
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I do want to dive deeper into that, if that's all right, Court.
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I'm kind of jumping on to all the questions right away.
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Go for it. Go for it.
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So help me out Wayne, like, okay.
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So obviously, you know, I'm teaching with Kognity and, oftentimes
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I might, like, give students like, a book assignment,
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say, right, I want you to read through this for,
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you know, this sort of information before you come to the lesson.
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And we're gonna kind of walk through there.
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I've also been experimenting with, blended learning.
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So sometimes just kind of giving them
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the time in the classroom to work on that, too.
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And that's that kind of harkens back to,
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an episode we did with Damien a while ago who kind of inspired me on that.
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Okay.
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But in general, I kind of give him the book assignment and say, here,
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make sure you know this content by this sort of time.
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What's kind of the better way that I could do that
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that allows students to have that choice, to have that engagement
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of their own level, or I guess, what can I direct them to so that there
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so that they're doing that
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in a more meaningful way as opposed to just like, okay,
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I got to read through all this thing? Right.
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So, so that's kind of, again, where those UDL principles like
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can either be applied, by the teacher or
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in the sense of like, can, you know, do you, do you go through just reading it?
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Do we jigsaw it? Do we
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do we use a graphic organizer?
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So like when we think about representation, how students engage
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with that, there's lots of different ways that teachers have choice,
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to be able to take that and say, these are the needs of my students.
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These are the levels.
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This is the level of scaffolding that's going to be needed.
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And I think this is this is one of the things that I love
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about UDL in general, at of it being a tool belt.
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When we think about teaching, oftentimes we revert back to as teachers,
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being a former teacher myself, I learned that's this one way.
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And so I'm going to apply that because this was this really worked well for me.
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So I'm going to apply that to my students.
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Well that worked well for you.
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But there might be another way of reaching students that I didn't think about.
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Right? Sure.
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And so I think the great thing about UDL and you go to like the website
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and stuff like that, and, and you look at the different ways that,
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you can take that information and disseminate.
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It gives you ideas of different ways of being able
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to have students engage with, let's say, an article.
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There's maybe more than one way of thinking about it.
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I mean, even Kognity, you know, some students,
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maybe they're reading levels not there,
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English isn't their first language.
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And so there's there's options where we have like an immersive reader
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that is built into our platform, that provides
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some other ways of students to be able to access that information
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other than just we're just going to read through this.
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Right.
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And I think there's even like,
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you know, what are the key things that I need to get out of this?
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And I think that's the most important bit as, as a learning
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experience designers, I'm saying like, hey, what are my main goals here?
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The activity isn't read this.
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What am I hoping my students take away from this? Yeah.
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And so using that to kind of drive the decisions I make as a teacher
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using UDL principles, I think,
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is a really powerful way of, kind of marrying
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both what's in the content and then using those,
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so be able to reach our students, which I think is the ultimate goal.
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Yeah.
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You can see a lot of that especially from that start you know the big picture.
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And then of course the summary at the end was like here's what you know
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by the end of this I should be able to do this.
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And I should know these things now.
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And especially, you know like international school context for me
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I'm constantly working with students for right up front.
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I'll kind of show them the immersive reader
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and the different languages and that sort of thing.
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But especially like our EAL team
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love like the different ways that you can call out the specific parts
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of speech, for example, or kind of, you know, make it more clear for somebody
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that that might have trouble reading or accessing the text in that way.
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I think it also, I just to add on to that,
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I think it's really cool that IB does a really great job at the beginning,
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and especially in Kognity, we do it as well.
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We put those guiding questions because it's not like a hidden thing for students.
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Right?
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About this is what I need to know or what I need to gain from it.
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But this is there, and it's helping us guide
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and think about how we need to engage with this content
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to be able to help them to be able
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to figure out what I need to know by the time I leave it.
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So great, great point John.
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When we talk about the way that the Kognity is built
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and what it lives under,
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I think that you guys did so much work on developing the learning principles,
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and I think that they are something that hold true
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through our product and something that I feel quite good standing behind.
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Could you give a quick overview of the learning principles
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and kind of how they do connect to the UDL principles?
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Because I do think there is quite a bit of overlap there too.
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Yeah.
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So, just to give some context, the learning principles at Kognity,
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in case people don't know, is teaching and learning should be active.
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Teaching and learning should be inclusive.
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And then, the idea is
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that, the value of learning extends beyond the class.
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And then formative assessment is an integral part of the learning process.
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So those are kind of the big,
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learning principles we have here at Kognity.
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And when we think about active I think in education we've moved away
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from thinking about learning is just this passive thing
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that happens where information is disseminated, but it's really
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about actively engaging students in that learning process.
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So I think when we think about the learning is active,
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we've tried to really reimagine what that kind of looks like.
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And again, while there's a lot of choice that we want to make sure
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that teachers can localize because we, you know, the IB is a global thing.
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So we need this to work wherever you're at. Right?
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But I think the Kognity platform
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has some really cool ways of helping students to engage with things.
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Right?
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So when when we think about, like the strength battle questions and students
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being able to engage with each other within their learning, it's not,
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you know, I think sometimes in edtech it can become the silo.
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And so how do we break the silo of learning and,
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and kind of break that where students are learning from each other,
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working with maybe in some aspects, competing with each other,
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I think that we're trying to reimagine ways that,
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how learning can be active in that way.
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So I think that that's kind of a cool thing that we have.
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I would say, learning should be inclusive.
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I think that the IB does a good job at this.
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And I think that because this is an IB, curriculum here,
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we work really hard to give students
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the opportunity to think about things from a global citizen standpoint.
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And so we're constantly using some of the call out boxes
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within the materials to be able to draw on that,
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to think about things from different perspectives,
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not just maybe they're localized positions.
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And so I think making sure that students
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have those opportunities to, metacognitively reflect,
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on their learning.
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And, also thinking about different perspectives,
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is, you know, I think something that we, you know, really strongly
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feel at Kognity is important for students in their learning.
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We talked about learning happens beyond the class.
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And so we think about,
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you know, beyond learning physics, we think about the examples
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that we put before students and we think about,
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okay, how does this apply and connect to their life?
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And then how do we bring in those perspectives
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of their life and their experiences into some of their learning,
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that they're doing in the classroom?
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So it's it's one of those things of like, how do we take these real world examples,
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apply them,
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and make sure
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that they resonate with students so that they are not just like,
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okay, I've learned about this, and then we're moving on that
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we're going into a different direction.
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So I think there's a lot of different ways that the Kognity principles,
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I think, align very much with both the IB principles.
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But along with the UDL principles, I think that all these things
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kind of come together to really,
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to one, help
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make sure that students are connecting to it
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and then that there's opportunities for teachers
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to be able to get those insights into students thinking over time.
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You know, and I think the the benefit
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with what Kognity has is oftentimes when I wasn't using like an edtech
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resource, those insights would happen a week or two after.
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I'm able to get those insights faster.
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Tell me a little bit more.
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What do you mean by that? With the insights would take place a lot.
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Yeah.
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So like within the questions,
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within the Kognity platform that students are doing,
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those insights that teachers have of the those checkpoints
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of what a student knows at any given time within the learning process,
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sometimes would be a week late before using an edtech program.
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Right?
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Just due to like our feedback loop. Is that what do you mean?
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Yeah, the feedback loop is just the it just it's
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it's not as fast to be able to do it.
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So to be able to adjust the instruction or to be like, oh my goodness.
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Like kids need, you know, my students need more time
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to be able to engage with these ideas before moving on.
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And so I think there's just like a really strong benefit
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to make sure that the time that's passed between feedback
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and what teachers know and giving that feedback to students,
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it really makes it more
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tight and, honed in so that we get better feedback.
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So yeah, it fosters agility, right?
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Like you can,
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if you have a structure that isn't using any technology,
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you're going to be in quite a rigid system
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where you're going to have things planned out for a longer amount of time.
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You can't pivot as quickly, if you're learning.
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Actually, I thought that they got this, but they absolutely did not.
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I need to to shift and
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and double down on whatever I need to focus on these kinds of things.
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Yeah.
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And it allows for the flexibility that, you know, like as a teacher,
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you can go in and you can adjust things and say like, oh, my kids need
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more practice on these questions, which is totally like
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that localization piece of what UDL is really calling for here is,
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you know, I think sometimes we think can curriculum must be taught in
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a very rigid manner where it's like, I need to go very sequentially
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and it needs to happen and look like this exactly as the curriculum spells out.
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But Kognity’s made its platform so that teachers don't be like, whoa,
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my students need more of this, and so I can adjust.
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I can give more practice on these types of questions,
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because this is where my students need more work and more practice.
18:34
Becoming a better IBDP
18:35
educator is a daily practice informed through reading, research,
18:39
personal experience,
18:40
and episodes from IB Unplugged,
18:42
like the one you're listening to right now.
18:44
But sometimes the show can go a bit too quickly,
18:47
or we simply forget some of the key points
18:48
once they're out of the car or back from our walk.
18:51
So to revisit the content in a condensed version, you can download
18:55
the episode summary at kognity.com/ibunplugged.
18:59
You'll find useful links to other resources and exciting
19:01
bits of information that you can use immediately in your daily practice.
19:06
So now back to the show.
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Wayne I really appreciate what you were talking about before
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with regard to how, you know, Kognity’s learning principles, UDL
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principles, and I guess the ideas of the IB kind of all aligned.
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And as you said that, I thought, well,
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you have to be intentional as a teacher to make sure that's clear, because
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while I also like I'm a big believer in the IB, obviously I love it.
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And at the same time, there are ways that if it is,
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if it's not delivered intentionally and really thought about it can feel like,
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okay, we're just going to acquire content and students just have to know stuff
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so they can do a test really well instead of very intentionally
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and meaningfully connecting
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here’re the call outs.
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Here's the global citizenship.
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Here's like nature of science, for example, or theory of knowledge.
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And how that kind of relates in these areas,
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and really expanding students to think beyond that a bit more.
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And so I'm just I'm, I'm still want to kind of dig into this a little bit more.
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And I guess from your perspective,
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what are the best ways that, like me as a teacher,
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that I can really pull all that together
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and help my students see, like that bigger concept, that bigger idea?
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And it might just be certain examples that you already know of or that you were
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thinking of with this design, but I'm just very interested.
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What are some of the best ways that
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that I can really be pulling that out with my students?
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That was a big hit for me as well in my classroom.
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And while I didn't teach IB, it became this thing of like..
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Education has changed a lot in the sense of like you're saying
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it's not about just acquiring information
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because I can acquire information from Google.
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I can acquire information from AI. Right?
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So then what is it that is really going to benefit my students?
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I think it comes down to those skills, right, of how to take in
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information, how to process it, and what do I do with that.
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Right?
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And I think that that really kind of connects to a lot of the
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IB ideas of approaches to learning, right?
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When we think about like, okay, you know, what are my thinking skills?
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How do I communicate? Right?
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What are my social skills?
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What are my reasoning skills?
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These will apply to students no matter what
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what field, whatever decisions they make to go into in terms of a career.
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And so how do we leverage those, you know, within our curriculum
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and say like this content is important, right?
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We want them to be good consumers of that content so that they,
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you know, one, we want them to perform well on these exams, 100%.
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But at the end of the day, like, how do we teach them to be good
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consumers of content, regardless of whatever they in and beyond
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maybe just my classroom.
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And so I think about that from my student’s perspective.
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And I think that fits very well
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with like the universal design for learning approaches as well.
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Because a lot of it is about like, wait, how do I engage with this?
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How do I then take these skills and how do I support, you know,
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being able to take in and
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acquire knowledge and actually gain what I need from those things?
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And then what do I do with that after I'm done?
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Like, how does that information then get stored within me?
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How do I communicate that to others or the important bits to others?
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And I think that that's kind of like our goal as a teacher
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is to help students to be able to learn how to process information.
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And I think the UDL principles at that point, this is like,
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okay, so the approaches, the learning, for example, are like the what?
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Like what we want students to kind of do?
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Whereas the universal design for learning principles are kind of the scaffolds
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to kind of help us to be able to do that within our classroom.
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Nice. Okay.
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So then I guess, like as a as a teacher, one
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okay,
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I think I've got all of these options in front of me
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in terms of how students can kind of engage with the content
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and how they might learn from it in terms of its representation.
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And then I guess it's then kind of down to me to look at
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how am I going to pull that out so that students actually
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take action on it, or they can express their knowledge,
23:17
whether that's through some of the stuff that's on the platform,
23:19
or maybe it's something that I design within the classroom itself.
23:22
But ultimately, I'm recognizing that when I intentionally
23:26
kind of upfront load and I guess that's the big difference
23:28
between like UDL and differentiation, right?
23:30
Differentiation is kind of like, let me react more to the students
23:33
that are already in my classroom, what I need to do.
23:36
Whereas UDL is kind of like,
23:37
let me just provide all these different ways in
23:39
which students can engage and therefore represent their knowledge.
23:42
I guess as a teacher, I just need to recognize, here's
23:44
all the ways that we've kind of done this, and now I can give them choice in terms
23:48
of how they're going to express their knowledge. Yeah.
23:50
And they might use the Kognity platform for that or they might do otherwise
23:53
as well. Right?
23:54
100%. Yeah.
23:55
And I think that's one of the things that's scary.
23:58
You know, I think about when I talk to teachers like it's scary
24:02
to give up some of that control of like, oh, I'm giving students choice.
24:06
Like it feels like the scary thing, right?
24:09
I love it.
24:10
I just I let go and then I just kick my feet up.
24:13
I have a great time.
24:14
Yeah, but but it's one of those things.
24:17
It's like, you know,
24:19
there's there's different ranges of that.
24:21
Right?
24:21
You can give students choice where,
24:23
you know, like you give a lot of information upfront,
24:26
but they have a lot of choice in how they express that
24:29
or you give them a lot of choice upfront when say, like, here's a range of things
24:33
you can be looking at, but I want you to communicate in this very specific way.
24:37
I think when we when we have, we figure out where do we want the choice
24:42
choices to be within that it helps to frame it so that we're not,
24:46
like all over the place as a teacher,
24:48
because I think that that becomes very difficult
24:52
in planning and thinking about it.
24:54
But I agree, like, you get to make that decision.
24:57
Do we start with a platform
24:59
and then we have choice in how we're going to communicate that?
25:01
Or do we start outside of the platform and,
25:04
and maybe have a lot of choice out here
25:06
and then kind of bring it back to the platform
25:08
to see how those things are connected to the ideas that we, those
25:13
big guiding questions that we are trying to maybe answer along the way.
25:16
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
25:18
And I think that one thing that I think is an important distinction
25:22
when having the freedom for students is just because
25:26
you have freedom, doesn't mean you don't have structure.
25:30
And I think that that's a really important
25:34
piece of it, that makes the freedom
25:36
feel scarier, because you associate it with not having structure, but
25:41
it has to be intentional and instruction
25:45
designed to still be a classroom, not a free for all.
25:50
And I think it's about what is your frame or your framework of your classroom.
25:56
Like what what are your hard limits that are important so that it still stays,
26:01
that you have these learning objectives that can be met.
26:04
So it's like freedom within,
26:08
frame that I think is really the important way to implement it
26:12
in your classroom without feeling like you've just lost control.
26:16
Exactly.
26:17
I think you're 100% correct here, Courtney.
26:20
It's just the the structure is so important
26:23
and and it helps to make sure that one,
26:27
you're getting the artifacts you need to be able to understand.
26:30
Again, when I think about learning, it's like making students thinking visible
26:35
and in the constant decisions I make as as a curriculum developer
26:40
is, I'm like, how do I help make the most of those opportunities
26:45
and make sure that that's visible
26:46
for both teachers and students within our, our materials.
26:50
And so I think if teachers also have those ideas in place as well, right?
26:55
It's like, okay,
26:56
like you said, the freedom's there, but I'm going to have these structures
26:59
to make sure that I'm seeing student thinking all along the way.
27:04
What I love about this
27:05
so far is, you know, there are some times where it feels like some of the,
27:09
the tech that I might want to go to in the classroom might have heard of.
27:12
It doesn't really feel like
27:15
that's doing a whole lot that's based off of metacognition
27:18
or actual cognition or ways in which kids are learning.
27:21
And so far, even just in this conversation so far away.
27:23
And it's very clear that you guys are thinking deeply about
27:28
how how is knowledge constructed, how do young people acquire knowledge?
27:32
How can we facilitate that?
27:34
And I think that's something
27:35
that I very much appreciate, because it doesn't feel like a
27:39
we just want people to be using the platform more and more and more and more.
27:42
It's like we want to make sure that this is a useful way
27:46
that that young people can develop and learn,
27:48
you know, in the ways that it's intended.
27:50
And yeah, when I think about different texts
27:53
or something like that, that maybe I've used in the past,
27:55
it's harder sometimes to really connect the intentions.
27:58
And especially in the IB where it's I want global citizenship and want TOK.
28:02
And when all these things can come in
28:03
and want students to have a way that they can apply this and understand
28:06
that connection with themselves, it's just clear to me that it that you're doing
28:11
a lot of reading and a lot of research ahead of, like, developing something here.
28:16
And so I don't have a question there.
28:18
I just was like, I appreciate that, I guess.
28:22
Yeah.
28:22
And I'll say I'll echo that is,
28:25
you know, I think sometimes..
28:27
We think a lot about Kognity,
28:30
specifically about students and teachers.
28:34
And we really, at the end of the day, we drive home
28:37
that we want this to be a useful thing.
28:39
We don't want to just be like, okay, great.
28:41
People bought our product.
28:43
No, we want to make sure it works.
28:44
And we're constantly looking at how do we improve that.
28:48
And we look at what is the research say what is the best practices out there
28:53
and how do we incorporate that
28:54
to make sure that students are getting the best thing.
28:58
And I think that that's what I love about it.
28:59
The iterativeness of Kognity, the feedback that we
29:03
get from teachers and students all the time that are honing
29:06
and making our curriculum materials better year after year after year.
29:11
So I mean,
29:13
yeah, everything is done intentionally and we
29:16
truly take that feedback to heart because we do like you're saying,
29:19
John, we want this
29:20
to be something that's useful, not just something that people buy.
29:24
So what I've gathered here is obviously we've got a wide range of resources,
29:28
a wide set of options for teachers to still have some control, but really
29:32
to think through the scaffolding, think through the structure of what
29:35
I'm doing, think through my UDL principles and what I need to be doing
29:39
so that students can engage at their own sort of pace, at their own choice,
29:42
and at the same time,
29:44
they can recontextualize the knowledge as they like.
29:46
And then that representation in the knowledge
29:48
is also quicker for for me to understand.
29:50
And it sounds like
29:51
I have lots of responsibility as an educator in the classroom.
29:54
I'm not just handing all this over and just saying, right,
29:56
you guys take them through the diploma program.
30:00
But I have now greater options based off of that resource
30:03
to engage meaningfully with, with UDL, in my classroom.
30:07
Yeah, I will just echo that.
30:10
I think that, you know, it's sometimes UDL
30:14
gets put into this box of it's just about accessibility.
30:19
And I think
30:19
that the principles that are there are so much deeper
30:23
about connecting students to the curriculum,
30:27
regardless of where they're at, making sure that we're reaching all students.
30:31
I think, like, you know, that's beyond accessibility.
30:33
And then as you're saying, you know, like, how do we take this
30:37
these principles of UDL and thoughtfully design options
30:42
where students have true agency within their learning.
30:45
And I think it's a challenge
30:46
for both curriculum writers and for teachers, as you're saying,
30:49
like really challenging ourselves to think about what are some ways that we can,
30:54
you know, thoughtfully and intentionally, do this in our classroom?
30:58
Great.
30:59
So with a lot of our episodes, we usually start with warmup questions.
31:03
You, had to start with all of this.
31:06
I thought maybe this time we could end with some spontaneous warmup questions.
31:10
How does that sound, Wayne?
31:11
Okay. I heard that that you're quite a singer, and so I'm interested
31:15
what's your what's your go to karaoke song?
31:17
I will say, when it comes down to, like, what music I enjoy,
31:20
I'm kind of a 70s kind of kind of guy.
31:24
So kind of like a lot of soul and pop music from the 70s.
31:27
So. Okay.
31:29
All right.
31:29
Also, I have had the pleasure of seeing you do magic.
31:33
What is your go to magic trick?
31:35
My go to magic trick?
31:38
So, there's a couple
31:40
different that are like, staples.
31:44
I have one, or it's called the battle on tube trick,
31:47
where you have a battle that keeps jumping and,
31:51
from tube to tube.
31:52
And then there's, you know, you flip it
31:55
upside down, back and forth, and and you do it
31:58
with an audience participation person, and it just whatever
32:02
we do it the same way, it doesn't turn out the same way.
32:05
And so it creates a lot of fun along the way.
32:07
So I love doing that.
32:09
But I also love doing some close up stuff with some,
32:12
cards and sponge balls and all sorts of fun things.
32:15
So yeah.
32:17
Awesome.
32:18
Well, I really hope that we get the chance to, to see each other in person.
32:21
You know, obviously right now you're in Michigan, and
32:23
I'm in Austria right now, but I hope we get a chance to to be in person.
32:26
You can show me some magic and we can make some music together.
32:28
That'd be great. Sounds great.
32:30
Thank you so much, Wayne.
32:31
I appreciate you joining us today.
32:33
And yeah, this has been really valuable I appreciate it.
32:36
Yeah, absolutely.
32:36
Thanks so much, Wayne.
32:37
Really, really good to talk with you and understand a lot more in terms
32:40
of like the development behind behind the product here.
32:42
And so thanks so much for taking the time.
32:44
Thanks for having me.
32:45
IB Unplugged is a Kognity podcast hosted by John Patton
32:49
and Courtney Marline and produced by Katilina Gaffney.
32:52
Be sure to subscribe or follow and share with your fellow IB educators.
32:55
If you'd like to submit a topic, request or a question, please do
32:58
so on kognity.com/ibunplugged.
33:02
Let's keep the conversation going
33:03
and support each other in teaching with confidence, creativity, and joy.
33:07
See you next time.