Latest / Destination Unlimited with Victor Fuhrman / Harry R Moody – The Power of Dreams in Later Life

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Harry R Moody – The Power of Dreams in Later Life · Destination Unlimited with Victor Fuhrman

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  Speaker 1: My name is Victor Furman. Some call me The Voice.
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  Speaker 1: I've always been fascinated with human nature, spirituality, science, and
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  Speaker 1: the crossroads at which they meet. Join me now and
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  Speaker 1: we will explore these topics and so much more with
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  Speaker 1: fascinating guests, authors, and experts who will guide us to
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  Speaker 1: Destination Unlimited. Do our dreams change as we enter the
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  Speaker 1: second half of our lives? May these dreams offer an
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  Speaker 1: inner roadmap for navigating aging, identity, and mortality. My guest
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  Speaker 1: this week on Destination Unlimited, Harry R. Moody, also known
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  Speaker 1: as Rick, says dreams can support psychological development and spiritual insight.
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  Speaker 2: After Midlife. Harry R.
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  Speaker 1: Moody is a gerontologist and the author of The Five
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  Speaker 1: Stages of the Soul. A former vice president at AARP,
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  Speaker 1: he has taught at Columbia and Fielding Graduate University and
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  Speaker 1: writes widely on aging, dreams, and spirituality. A longtime member
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  Speaker 1: of the International Association for the Study of Dreams, he
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  Speaker 1: lives in San Mateo, California. He joins me this week
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  Speaker 1: to share his work and new book The Power of
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  Speaker 1: Dreams in Later Life, Interpreting the Signs and Symbols. Please
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  Speaker 1: join me in welcoming to Destination Unlimited Harry R. Moody,
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  Speaker 1: also known as Rick.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome, Rick. Glad to be here.
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  Speaker 1: Rick, please share with us your path and your work
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  Speaker 1: as a gerontologist, someone who studies the aging process.
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  Speaker 2: It's pretty easy for me to answer that. When I
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  Speaker 2: was 28 years old, I was completing my PhD program
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  Speaker 2: at Columbia, and for the past few years before that,
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  Speaker 2: I was trying to basically work my way through graduate school,
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  Speaker 2: and I got a job teaching at a senior citizen center.
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  Speaker 2: And I'd never done anything like this before. I didn't
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  Speaker 2: really know much about senior citizens, but I did it
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  Speaker 2: because I needed a job. I saw an ad in
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  Speaker 2: the New York Times, and I found that I really
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  Speaker 2: enjoyed working with these elders. And so I continued doing that.
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  Speaker 2: And all the time that I was at Columbia University,
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  Speaker 2: which is where I was getting my doctorate until 1973,
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  Speaker 2: when I got my degree, I kept working in senior
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  Speaker 2: centers all around New York City in many different places.
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  Speaker 2: I found I liked it a lot and I became interested.
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  Speaker 2: And I came away from that experience with one particular lesson,
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  Speaker 2: which is that you're never too old to learn anything.
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  Speaker 2: And some of the best students that I ever had,
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  Speaker 2: and I've taught students of many different ages, those could
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  Speaker 2: be the elders, the old people who really want to learn.
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  Speaker 2: And that led me eventually to Elder Hostel, now called
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  Speaker 2: Rhodes Scholar. And I've been a teacher in Rhodes Scholar,
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  Speaker 2: and I've been a participant in Rhodes Scholar. So the
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  Speaker 2: same motive that led me into this aging work, this
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  Speaker 2: gerontology work, has kept me in the field. I call
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  Speaker 2: it positive aging. And dreams are part of that.
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  Speaker 1: Wonderful. How did dreams become part of your calling?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I was, I could put it this way. I've
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  Speaker 2: been dreaming all my life. We all have, but we
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  Speaker 2: don't always remember our dreams. But a little after the
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  Speaker 2: year 2000, for whatever reason, I started keeping more careful
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  Speaker 2: track of my dreams. I wrote them down in a journal,
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  Speaker 2: a notebook. I kept a notebook every day And I'd
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  Speaker 2: done this for years. But I found that writing down
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  Speaker 2: my dreams actually made me remember them better. And I've
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  Speaker 2: kept up that practice as long as I can remember now,
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  Speaker 2: which is really more than 25 years. And I've learned
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  Speaker 2: more and more about myself from my dreams. And that
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  Speaker 2: gave me a very important set of lessons. You might
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  Speaker 2: get the lessons in some other way. I don't deny that.
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  Speaker 2: But I regard dreams as a way of sort of
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  Speaker 2: personal psychotherapy. And I'm not saying that I am desperately
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  Speaker 2: in need of psychotherapy, but I am in need of self-knowledge.
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  Speaker 2: I want to know myself better, and dreams are a
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  Speaker 2: way to do that.
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  Speaker 1: And do you recommend to our listeners that they keep
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  Speaker 1: some type of a journal or a notepad by their
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  Speaker 1: bedside so that when they wake up, they can record
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  Speaker 1: their dreams?
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  Speaker 2: Yes, I do. I don't think you have to do
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  Speaker 2: it in any particular way. Some people like to dictate
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  Speaker 2: things into a tape recorder. Some people just write some
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  Speaker 2: notes on a scrap of paper. Other people have a
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  Speaker 2: special document or a special thing that they use, which
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  Speaker 2: is their journal. And they may use it for other things.
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  Speaker 2: For example, they may put in ideas that come to
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  Speaker 2: them or self-reflections, kind of like an autobiography. And in
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  Speaker 2: some ways, dreams can function that way. But you can
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  Speaker 2: use many different methods to keep track of your dreams.
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  Speaker 2: And People shouldn't be discouraged if they find that they
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  Speaker 2: can't keep track of their dreams, or even if they
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  Speaker 2: begin to think, maybe I don't have any dreams. Many
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  Speaker 2: people feel that way because they don't remember their dreams.
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  Speaker 2: But I can tell you this for sure. We all dream.
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  Speaker 2: As far as scientists are concerned, every warm-blooded creature dreams.
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  Speaker 2: That means mammals and birds, too, but not cold-blooded animals. crocodiles,
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  Speaker 2: for example, don't dream. They measure this by brain activity
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  Speaker 2: while the crocodile or the dog or the cat or
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  Speaker 2: the bird is hanging around in some capacity in a
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  Speaker 2: cage or kept up in some way or other. So yes,
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  Speaker 2: the answer is you can keep track of your dreams
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  Speaker 2: and not be discouraged if it takes a little while
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  Speaker 2: to make notes and to keep a document of them.
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  Speaker 2: But I can assure you of this. If you keep
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  Speaker 2: track of your dreams, you may discover meaning in them
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  Speaker 2: even years later. I've discovered meaning in dreams that I
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  Speaker 2: had 30 or 40 years ago, which I didn't really
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  Speaker 2: understand much at the time. But much later, I saw
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  Speaker 2: deep meaning in them.
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  Speaker 1: Now, being of similar generations, you and I did not
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  Speaker 1: have cell phones when we were growing up. Is it
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  Speaker 1: okay for someone to use a cell phone or is
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  Speaker 1: it better to do it by writing?
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  Speaker 2: I wouldn't recommend one way or another. People have different approaches.
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  Speaker 2: Some people find it's better to dictate. Some find it's
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  Speaker 2: better to write. Some write on a computer. I like
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  Speaker 2: to write by handwritten notes because I feel that handwriting
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  Speaker 2: engages the full body more than typing or working on
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  Speaker 2: a computer does. But I do other things on a
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  Speaker 2: computer too.
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  Speaker 1: Tell us about your affiliation with the International Association for
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  Speaker 1: the Study of Dreams.
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  Speaker 2: The International Association for the Study of Dreams is the
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  Speaker 2: world's leading organization that documents and understands and promotes scientific research.
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  Speaker 2: That includes both biological research, I've mentioned something about measuring
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  Speaker 2: brain activity, but also dreams that people remember and they
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  Speaker 2: publish and share with others. And the International Association for
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  Speaker 2: the Study of Dreams makes this available to the world
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  Speaker 2: and In that sense, it's a form of academic scholarship
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  Speaker 2: that covers a wide, wide range. And I'm a big
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  Speaker 2: fan of that, being an academic myself by background. I
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  Speaker 2: didn't study psychology, but I've always been involved with psychology,
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  Speaker 2: including personal psychotherapy. And this is going back to when
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  Speaker 2: I was in college. This was at Yale rather than Columbia.
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  Speaker 2: But what I did was to appreciate the importance of
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  Speaker 2: self-knowledge and self-insight. This is true not just for as
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  Speaker 2: a kind of an interesting exercise. Some people's lives have
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  Speaker 2: been saved because of dreams that they had that gave
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  Speaker 2: them knowledge that they wouldn't have had in any other
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  Speaker 2: way about chronic illness or diseases in their body. So
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  Speaker 2: our dreams may know more things than we think we
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  Speaker 2: know ourselves.
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  Speaker 1: Before we discuss the power of dreams in later life,
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  Speaker 1: Please share with us about your book, The Five Stages
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  Speaker 1: of the Soul, charting the spiritual passages that shape our lives.
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  Speaker 1: What inspired that book, and what do you share with
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  Speaker 1: your readers?
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  Speaker 2: What inspired that book was my lifelong interest in comparative religion,
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  Speaker 2: which I developed when I was at Yale as a
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  Speaker 2: graduate student. And I had the great good fortune to
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  Speaker 2: meet many different kinds of people, people like Trungpa Rinpoche,
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  Speaker 2: for example. or people who were working in the area
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  Speaker 2: of Sufism and Islamic mysticism, Christian mysticism also. There's a
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  Speaker 2: great Christian monastery in Greece, which you can only visit
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  Speaker 2: if you're a male. They don't even have female cows there.
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  Speaker 2: They only have male animals. It seems a little fanatic
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  Speaker 2: to me, but that's the way they look upon it.
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  Speaker 2: And I had occasion there, It's called Mount Athos, and
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  Speaker 2: I had occasion to spend a couple of weeks there
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  Speaker 2: along with a couple of good friends of mine. One
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  Speaker 2: spoke contemporary Greek and one spoke Russian. That was very
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  Speaker 2: important because the monks who are in those monasteries are
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  Speaker 2: mostly from the Slavic world, mostly the Russian Orthodox Church,
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  Speaker 2: and in many cases, the Greek Orthodox Church. There aren't
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  Speaker 2: too many Catholics, but one of the people on our trip,
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  Speaker 2: that trip of four people, One of them was a
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  Speaker 2: Catholic priest. So people of all different religions are interested,
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  Speaker 2: some of them anyway, are interested in things like this, dreams.
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  Speaker 2: I'm sure the Dalai Lama knows a lot about dreams.
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  Speaker 2: If you ever can get him on your show, I
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  Speaker 2: would recommend it because he's a very impressive person. I've
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  Speaker 2: never met him in person, but I know from what
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  Speaker 2: he said, and I've seen him in video presentations, that
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  Speaker 2: he's a person of real attainment. And that is something
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  Speaker 2: that you can find in all the different religions of
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  Speaker 2: the world, Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, you name it.
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  Speaker 2: They all have some attention to dream work. In some cases,
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  Speaker 2: it's very profound, like in Kabbalah, the Jewish mystical tradition.
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  Speaker 2: It's also true in the Sufi tradition. and in Christianity
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  Speaker 2: as well. And this is not just something in the past.
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  Speaker 2: It's happening even as we're speaking right now. People are
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  Speaker 2: somewhere in the world, because time zones differ, someone is sleeping.
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  Speaker 2: Many people are sleeping. Many people are having dreams. The
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  Speaker 2: next day when they wake up, they may be able
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  Speaker 2: to record those dreams and share it with others of
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  Speaker 2: their faith tradition and perhaps other traditions. So that's why
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  Speaker 2: I got interested in the stages of the soul. Are
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  Speaker 2: there five stages or why not six or four? It's
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  Speaker 2: somewhat arbitrary, but I put things together because I interviewed
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  Speaker 2: a lot of people for that book. It took me
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  Speaker 2: many years to write it, and I came up with
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  Speaker 2: these stages, call, search, struggle, breakthrough, and return. And in
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  Speaker 2: a nutshell, what that means is that at a moment
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  Speaker 2: of call, something in you becomes connected to the search
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  Speaker 2: for meaning in life. It may happen in different ways,
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  Speaker 2: but if it does happen, you need to begin taking
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  Speaker 2: it seriously and look. You have to search for someone
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  Speaker 2: who can give you help, a psychotherapist, a priest, a
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  Speaker 2: clergy person of some variety. Many traditions, probably all traditions,
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  Speaker 2: have somebody in that role. Call, search, struggle. You don't
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  Speaker 2: just Pay attention to your dreams or pay attention to
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  Speaker 2: things that you read in a book and then get anywhere.
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  Speaker 2: It doesn't matter whether it's the Bible or the Koran
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  Speaker 2: or the Upanishads, the Buddhist sutras. All these are good.
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  Speaker 2: And that was part of what I said in the
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  Speaker 2: five stages of the soul. They're all good because they're
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  Speaker 2: paths up a mountain. But if you're climbing a mountain,
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  Speaker 2: and that's an analogy to a spiritual search, you're getting
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  Speaker 2: higher and higher. You can see more. You understand more.
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  Speaker 2: But paths are all different. If I'm on one path,
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  Speaker 2: let's say the Christian path, maybe somebody else I can
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  Speaker 2: see is on the Buddhist path. We're all climbing the mountain.
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  Speaker 2: Not everybody in that tradition, Christianity or Buddhism, is on
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  Speaker 2: a path, but some are. And as you get higher
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  Speaker 2: on the path, you see more and more other people
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  Speaker 2: climbing the mountain. But a mountain climbing is to say
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  Speaker 2: that it's difficult. It's not easy. You have to work
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  Speaker 2: at it. You have to work at it the right way.
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  Speaker 2: And that's where the search comes in. People can give guidance.
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  Speaker 2: And dreams can be a form of guidance too, by
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  Speaker 2: the way. I have another book that I've never published
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  Speaker 2: called Dreams and the Stages of the Soul, in which
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  Speaker 2: I keep track of dreams, not only my own, but
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  Speaker 2: others from around the world. And each of those stages,
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  Speaker 2: I've talked about call, search, and struggle. I haven't talked
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  Speaker 2: about breakthrough. Breakthrough means the moment that you have insight.
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  Speaker 2: and a deep experience of some kind or other. Some
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  Speaker 2: would call it a mystical experience. There are many words
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  Speaker 2: for it. But whatever it is, it's something you never forget.
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  Speaker 2: Very strong, very powerful. But if you do, that's not
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  Speaker 2: the end of the story. You need to go to
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  Speaker 2: the fifth stage, which means you need to wake up
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  Speaker 2: into ordinary life. Bring it back to where you live,
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  Speaker 2: to your family, your occupation, even politics. If you do that,
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  Speaker 2: you'll have integrated the five stages of the soul. It
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  Speaker 2: doesn't mean you're over. It means you have to think
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  Speaker 2: in another way about what's next for you. People can
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  Speaker 2: learn this. They can get better at it. And by
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  Speaker 2: the way, when you get better at something in a
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  Speaker 2: spiritual path, that doesn't mean you talk about it. Maybe
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  Speaker 2: you don't talk to anybody about it. And there's a
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  Speaker 2: good reason for keeping things more quiet, particularly if they're
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  Speaker 2: very powerful experiences. What you want to do is pay
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  Speaker 2: attention to your own experience, not other people's. You can
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  Speaker 2: learn from other people's experience. That's why I wrote the
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  Speaker 2: book on the power of dreams in later life, because
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  Speaker 2: I knew from my own experience that I could learn
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  Speaker 2: things about myself, not necessarily spiritual things, but facts about
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  Speaker 2: where I am for retirement, for chronic illness, for family relationships,
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  Speaker 2: even the past, things that happened a long time ago.
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  Speaker 2: I can remember them. Some people call that life review.
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  Speaker 2: And life review can happen in dreams. Anyway, that's all
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  Speaker 2: I can say about the five stages of the soul.
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  Speaker 2: I'm glad you asked the question. I published the book
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  Speaker 2: some time ago. Now I'm doing different things, including political work,
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  Speaker 2: which I do, which I can talk about if you
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  Speaker 2: want to. We don't have to talk about it because
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  Speaker 2: you don't have to be engaged in political activities to
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  Speaker 2: pay attention to your dreams. But if you do, you
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  Speaker 2: may have dreams that relate to justice or social problems
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  Speaker 2: or threats. War. Many different things like this can appear
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  Speaker 2: in dreams. That's what I wanted to say.
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  Speaker 1: And do those who are in positions of power, do
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  Speaker 1: they pay attention to their dreams? That's a great question.
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  Speaker 2: It's a great question, and I wish the answer were yes.
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  Speaker 2: Because in years past, people... Probably most people in a
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  Speaker 2: society took dreams seriously. They assumed that they were meaningful. Today,
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  Speaker 2: that's not true. There are many people who see dreams
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  Speaker 2: as nothing different from astrology or nothing different from some
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  Speaker 2: variety of superstition. Don't pay attention to it. It's just
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  Speaker 2: something that happened in the middle of the night. It
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  Speaker 2: wasn't part of what we call the real world. Well,
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  Speaker 2: I think they're making a mistake. But I'll tell you
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  Speaker 2: an example of this. I was once with a friend
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  Speaker 2: of mine who had been, I won't say his name,
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: but he was Assistant Secretary of State, very much involved
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: with the ending of the war in what used to
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: be Yugoslavia. And I happened to be sitting at a
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  Speaker 2: table with him and his wife. And his wife asked me, well,
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  Speaker 2: what are you doing these days, Rick? And I said, well,
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: I'm working on a book on dreams. And When I
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: said that, it was as if I said, oh, I'm
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: thinking of signing up for Al-Qaeda and learning how to
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: make bombs. In other words, it's something that is just
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: ridiculous and irrelevant. And if anything, a distraction and maybe
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: even bad. And I didn't mention anything more because I
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: knew she was not interested in dreams. So I just
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: changed the subject. And I said, well, let's talk about
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: sports or let's talk about something else that is interesting. Travel.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: Have you been to any good countries lately? Because her
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: husband being part of the State Department, she traveled all
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: over the world. And pretty soon she was interested in
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: telling me all about the different countries that she'd visited.
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  Speaker 2: That's the end of the story. So I don't talk
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  Speaker 2: about dreams except to people who are really interested. I
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: assume some people are interested in Victor Foreman's program. And
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: they see, oh, power of dreams in later life. Well,
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  Speaker 2: I don't consider myself too old. Maybe I'm only 50
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: or 60. That's not too old. Well, let me tell
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  Speaker 2: you something. You can have dreams at any age, and
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  Speaker 2: you can have dreams about aging and about your age.
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  Speaker 2: If we have some time today, I'll give some examples
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  Speaker 2: of people in their 40s and 50s as well as 60s.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm 81 years old now, and I have very
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  Speaker 2: powerful dreams. I had a big dream last night, just
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  Speaker 2: last night when I woke up, I think partly related
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  Speaker 2: to the fact that I was going to have this
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  Speaker 2: interview with you. You were not in the dream, but
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  Speaker 2: I could see that they were connected. Anyway, that's what
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  Speaker 2: I wanted to say.
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  Speaker 1: You sort of touched upon this before, talking about animals
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  Speaker 1: that don't dream, but does every human being have dreams
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  Speaker 1: every night?
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  Speaker 2: Yes, they do have dreams every night, because if you
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  Speaker 2: go to a sleep lab, and I have been in
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: a sleep lab. When I was at Columbia, I needed
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: to earn money. I mentioned that already. And so I
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: saw an advertisement for people who wanted to go to
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: a sleep lab. And so I said, that's a pretty
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  Speaker 2: good deal. I just go to some place and I
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: sleep all night and they give me some cash the
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: next morning. Who can who can get a better deal
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  Speaker 2: than that? Uh, most jobs you have to work in
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: order to get paid this one, you just sleep. So
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  Speaker 2: I went there, I did, I went there more than
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: once because it was such a good deal. But what
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: they did is they let you go to a place
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  Speaker 2: where you sleep. Uh, but then periodically they'll wake you up, uh,
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  Speaker 2: not a happy thing when you're in the middle of
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: the night and they wake you up and they say
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: to you, well, we noticed that you were dreaming. Well,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: how did they notice that? Because when I went to sleep,
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: before I went to sleep, they hooked me up with
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: all sorts of wires to my head, monitors for electroencephalograph
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: or electro, I've forgotten the name of it, but they
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: were monitoring electrical brain activity because as it turns out,
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: and this was only discovered in the 1950s, it turns
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: out that when people dream, they have motion in their eyes.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: This kind of ocular movement is an indication of sleep activity.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: And when people in that sleep lab saw my eyes
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: moving and they saw the registry on the brain activity,
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: they would wake me up and say, what are you dreaming?
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I remembered what I dreamed, Sometimes they didn't. They
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: let me go back to sleep. They let me go
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: back to sleep, whether I told them anything good or not.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: But that's a way in which you can monitor any
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: human being. Only some people volunteer to be in a
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: sleep lab. I later on got into a sleep lab
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: because I had some sort of physical ailment. And they said, well,
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: why don't we have you go to the sleep lab
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: and see if we can rule out any problems. So
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: I went there. I slept for a night. They woke
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: me up occasionally. They ruled out the problem. So I
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: only went for a second time. I didn't go for
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: a second time after I'd graduated from graduate school, Columbia. Anyway,
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: that's my answer to the story of how do they
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: know when people are sleeping? Because if you wake them up,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: you can ask them and they'll tell you. They'll often
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: tell you. In my case, I wake myself up deliberately,
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: you might say, in the middle of the night. because
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: I will tell your audience this in case you have
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: some young people there. As you get older, you tend
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: to develop physical problems. You don't necessarily develop dementia or
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: Alzheimer's disease. That doesn't happen with aging at all. It
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: only happens to a very small number of people. It's
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: a disease. Hard to diagnose, but definitely a disease. So
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: what happened to me? Well, I developed arthritis. It doesn't
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: wake me up in the middle of the night, but
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: it's painful and it's hard for me to walk, so
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: I have to do some exercises. But something else which
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: is not curable or can't be affected is bladder problems.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: So if you get to be old, and I think
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: I said I'm 81 years old, I can't sleep the
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: whole night without getting up every hour or so to
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: have to urinate. And I do that. And when I
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: do get up, And at the same time that I
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: get up for that reason, I also usually drink a
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: glass of water because I learned just a few years
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: ago that if you drink more water over the course
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: of a day, it's better for your health. So I
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: changed my behavior and started drinking more water. That means
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: I wake up more often in the middle of the night.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: That's okay. Number one, it's better for my health to
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: drink water. Number two, the more times I wake up
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: that way, the more times I can remember dreams that
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: I've been having. And for that reason, I have no
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: complaints about my health. I have no complaints about, uh,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: bladder or arthritis or, uh, hearing aids. For example, I
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: I'm wearing hearing aids right now. And last night I
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: even had a dream about my hearing aids, believe it
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: or not, wasn't directly about hearing aids, but it was
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: about hearing and listening. And that's an example of how
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: the things that you do in your ordinary life, whether it's, uh,
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: your diet, or your family relationships, or exercise, or occupation,
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: or money, they can all reappear in your dreams and
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: tell you something important if you pay attention and if
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: you remember the dreams.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: And we'll talk about that in the next segment. My
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: guest is Harry R. Moody, also known as Rick. His
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: book is called The Power of Dreams in Later Life.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Please share with our listeners where they can get your
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: book and find out more about you and your amazing work.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: It's going to be available in November. That's next month.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: And you can order it, pre-order it. And I also
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: am happy to give out examples of the book or
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: parts of the book in PDF format. Only buy my
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: book if you think it can be interesting or important
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: for you. But if you're curious and you want to
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: know about it, send me a message and I'll send
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: you a short synopsis of the book and an example
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: in PDF format. or in Word, that has in it
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: examples of dreams. But my email address is hrmoody, that's
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: hr as in Harry, Rick, moody, m-o-o-d-y, at sign, at yahoo.com,
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: hrmoody at yahoo.com.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: And we'll be back with more of Rick after these
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: words on the OWN Times radio network.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: The cutting edge of conscious radio, OM Times Radio, IOM FM.
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: OM Times Magazine is one of the leading online content
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: providers of positivity, wellness, and personal empowerment. A philanthropic organization.
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: Their net proceeds are funneled to support worldwide charity initiatives
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: via Humanity Healing International. Through their commitment to creating community
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: and providing conscious content, they aspire to uplift humanity on
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: a global scale. OM Times, co-creating a more conscious lifestyle.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: Back on Destination Unlimited, my guest this week, Harry R. Moody,
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: also known as Rick, we're talking about his book, The
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Power of Dreams in Later Life. Rick, How do we
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: interpret our dreams?
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: We have to interpret our dreams ourselves. People misunderstand this
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: and think that if they buy a book of dream symbols,
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: that will give them the message that they need to know.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: It's not true. There are things you can learn from books.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: People can learn something from my book. But what you'll
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: learn is how to interpret a particular dream. For example,
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: people sometimes have dreams about a house in which they're
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: in a house. Maybe it's their own house, but they're
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: going up and down the stairs or they're going to
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: different places. And it turns out that there are closets,
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: doors in the house that they've never seen before. Well,
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: this is a very common dream. Like the dream, somebody
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: just told me this dream this morning, a good friend
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: of mine. He didn't know what it meant. He said, Rick,
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: I had a dream in which I was in a
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: strange city And I was trying to find my home
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: and I wandered here and there everywhere, but I could
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: never find my home. And he said, well, what do
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: you think? And I wouldn't tell him what I thought,
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: but I'll tell you what I thought the dream meant
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: is that the strange city was his life. And what
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: he was looking for was learning to be home, to
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: be in a place where he would be in comfort, satisfied, safe.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: He couldn't find it. And in fact, that's the way
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: it is. Another fellow gave me a dream in which
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: he was a big-time executive. He was on his way
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: to JFK Airport. And on the way to the airport,
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: he had everything packed because this is a guy who
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: packed everything. He knew everything in advance. Very rich, very powerful.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: Halfway to the airport, he realized he had not remembered
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: to bring his passport. And it was too late to
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: go home again. What should he do? He didn't know
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: what that dream meant. I knew what his dream meant.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: I didn't tell him. Eventually, he realized what the meaning
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: of the dream was, is that you can pack everything
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: for the trip that you're on, the trip of your life,
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: the travel that you're going to go on. But if
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: you forget the most important thing, that is the thing
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: that tells you your identity, that gives you self-knowledge of
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: who you are, then it's too late. You're going to
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: get to the airport. Your life is going to begin,
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: but you're going to lack your passport. That's bad news
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: for travel. It's bad news for life if you live
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: your life, but don't have knowledge of self-knowledge. And as
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: for the first image, there are many, many cases in
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: which people have a dream of their house. If we
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: have a moment, I'll tell you one more brief dream.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: It wasn't my dream. It was a dream of somebody
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: who I didn't know personally, who in his dream, he
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: woke up in the dream sick in his bed and
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: he heard sounds and he walked through the house and
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: he saw doors in the house that were never there before.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: He said, this is my house, but I've never seen
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: these doors before. How could that be? And then he
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: heard the sound in the basement. So he went down
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: to the basement and what did he find? He found
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: somebody in an office doing drafting of documents and pictures.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: And he said, who are you? And the guy in
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: the office said, I'm the architect. I designed this house.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: What do you think? And the dreamer said, well, I
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: like it. a lot, but there's just some things about
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: it I've never seen before. And so the architect in
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: the basement said, well, you have time. You're not that old.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: You can learn more about the house. You live in
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: the house and eventually you're going to have a job.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: giving people tours of this house because it's so beautiful.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: When he woke up, this dreamer, he realized that what
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: this dream was, and he realized this himself, he said,
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: the house is myself. The house is often yourself. But
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: there was something more to it. There was an architect.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: What is an architect? An architect is the principle in you,
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: that thing in yourself, which is in the basement, that
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: is far from where you normally gone, you normally go,
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: and it's working to make the house better. The house,
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: your life is good right now. It's a great place
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: to be. That's called life satisfaction of people in old age.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: It's good, but not good enough. Good enough for what?
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Good enough to help others. And the message of that dream,
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: which was very clear, the architect gave him this message.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: The architect said, you will eventually not right away, but
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: someday have the job of giving other people a tour
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: of your own house. That is use your own knowledge
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: of yourself to help them live their lives better. That's
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: an example of how a dream can, and this is
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: a real dream. This is published. I got it from
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: a friend of mine that I knew in Boulder, Colorado,
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: where I lived then. And, uh, It tells you so
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: all these dreams that I've just given an example of,
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: and I have many, many others there in the book, uh,
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: will tell you ways in which even as you grow older,
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: you can learn things that you need to learn about
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: yourself or about the world or about your body.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: So going further with this, what is distinctive about dreams
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: in what we call the second half of life?
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: What's distinctive is this in the first half of life,
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: Our job is mainly to grow up, to get through education,
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: to maybe find a mate, a partner, a wife, or
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: a husband, to get acclimated, to get connected with the world,
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: maybe to have children. Not everybody has children. Not everybody
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: gets married. Not everybody works a long time. Some people
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: get rich and they can retire at age 30. I've
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: known people like that. I happen to live right here
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: in Silicon Valley. There are people around like that. However
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: old you are, let's say the second half of life
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: begins roughly at age 40. And beyond age 40, beyond
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: let's call it middle age, midlife, a lot of things
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: have happened to you already. You need to understand them
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: better because other things are going to happen to you
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: in the second half of life. You're going to have
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: more health challenges. You might get more lonely as children
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: grow up and move away. You might outgrow your job,
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: or maybe your job outgrows you and you get fired.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: Like me, I was once laid off from a very
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: big job. I've had chronic illness problems, which, Victor, you
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: and I talked about a little bit during the break.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Not serious, but, you know, skin cancer, arthritis, and so forth.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: Some of these I didn't know about. Some of them
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: I learned about. because I had dreams about them. And
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: that's why dreams in the second half of life are different,
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: because we all face different things as we get older.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: And as we get older, we still need time. And
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: we have time, fortunately, because we live in a society
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: of longevity and in a way, not everybody gets to
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: be old, but if we do get to be old,
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: like I'm old right now, even though I've studied aging
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: my whole adult life since I was 28, uh, but
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: I didn't understand very much about it. And I told
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: some people, you know, I'm now retired. I used to
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: work for AARP, believe it or not. And, uh, I've
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: now been retired for 10 or 12 years. And I
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: even wrote a book on aging when I was much younger,
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: when I was 50, uh, And what I tell them
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: is I say, I feel like I'm a professor of
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: Japanese who spent his whole life teaching the language of Japan.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: And then he retires and actually goes to visit Japan
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: and see what the country is like. I've been to
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: Japan myself a couple of times, and it's an unusual country,
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: a wonderful country. But my point is this. You can
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: learn about things from books. You can learn symbols. A
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: house is a symbol of yourself. Water is a symbol
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: of maybe drowning or maybe something else, maybe something you
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: need to have water because it has many functions. That's
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: the point. The same symbol of something in the real world,
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: the waking world, can have many different meanings. The meaning
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: belongs to you. I once had the good fortune to
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: give a dream workshop. We weren't interpreting other people's dreams.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: I don't try to do that because if I did that,
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: I would take away from people finding the meaning in
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: their own dreams. And I did that with a woman
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: who was in her 80s. It seemed very old at
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: the time, but now I'm close to her age. And
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: she eventually wrote a book titled The Dream Belongs to
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: the Dreamer. The Dream Belongs to the Dreamer. You can
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: find it on Amazon. It's out there. And she was
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: giving a very, she was a dream worker like me,
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: giving a very important message. Don't interpret other people's dreams,
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: even if they ask you to. You can help them.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: But if you do, always tell them, if this were
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: my dream, I would think X, Y, Z, whatever you
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: want to say. But be very careful about it because
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: you might take away from them the opportunity to find
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: the meaning for themselves. And they need to do that,
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: just like learning to ride a bicycle. You can't get
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: exercise without actually riding the bicycle, which I do now,
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: by the way, for arthritis. That's my response to this.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: I hope I've been helpful. Absolutely.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: May dreams as we age help us find new purposes
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: in life before and after retirement?
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: One purpose in life is to recognize that time is limited.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: I had a very good friend, and I'll tell you
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: his name even because he's now deceased. He's no longer living.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Joe Durem. He was the city attorney of Boulder, Colorado,
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: where I lived at the time. And he was a
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: very distinguished man. he died. He had dialysis because he
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: had skin, he had not skin, kidney failure. And I
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: used to drive him to the dialysis place every couple
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: of times a week for two years because he was
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: my closest friend. Years after he died, and still today even,
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: I have a dream in which, in the dream, I'm
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: looking for his email address or his telephone number. And
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: I wake up and I say, gee, it really bothers
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: me that I can't get that email address. Sometimes only
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: when I wake up do I realize that Joe is
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: no longer living. He doesn't have an email address. He
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: doesn't have a telephone number. I can't reach him anymore.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: So what that dream, and I've had other dreams like
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: this too for people who have died, is that's a
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: reminder to Rick Moody that Rick Moody, you're 81 years old.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: According to the mortality statistics, you have maybe seven or
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: eight more years left on earth. It might be longer.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: It might be shorter. My life could be over when
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: this interview is over. You know, my friend Andy Achenbaum,
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: who died, he died when he was walking up the
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: stairs for his house in Houston, Texas. And it was unexpected.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: He didn't know it was going to happen, but there
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: it was. It happened. He was younger than me. So
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: was Joe Durem. So I'm telling you their names because
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: they're prominent people. They've published many books. They're no longer
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: a living, but they wouldn't object if I shared their dreams.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: They're not dreams that they had. They're dreams that I had.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: I haven't told you any dreams that Joe Durem had,
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: although he told me some, or that Andy Achenbaum had,
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: although he told me some too. But those are private.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: Those belong to them even after they're no longer living.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: That's what I wanted to say, why dreams can be helpful.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: And I already mentioned my own dream about cancer. That dream,
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: by the way, I didn't know it was about cancer.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: It was a dream in which I was wearing an
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: oxygen tank and I was swimming underneath the water of
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: the ocean. And in the middle of the dream, I
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: saw signs, that is, inscriptions on a wall, which I
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: couldn't read. And I came up to the surface. And
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: after I came to the surface, I woke up. In
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: the dream, I woke up. And I realized to myself,
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: I said to myself consciously, I said, this is a
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: dream about cancer. There was nothing about cancer in the dream.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: It was not until a few months later that I
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: had a procedure. And they did a test and sent
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: it for biopsy. And then they sent me the results.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: And they said, by the way, we found it was cancerous.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: I couldn't believe it. I was sitting near a swimming
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: pool at the time. I remember just exactly where I
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: was when they told me this because it was a
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: very emotional experience. What? It can't be true. Rick Moody,
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: of all people, can get cancer? My sister nearly died
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: of cancer yesterday. Big operation, colon cancer. I have not
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: had big operations. I have not had any bad health,
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: any serious problems. So people in that situation, and the
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: older you are, the more likely you are to have
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: had good health to get to that age. But the
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: more likely you are to have some bad health later on,
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: because you're not likely to live beyond 90, or maybe
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: 100 if you're really lucky. Hmm. Some people would say
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: you're not lucky if you live that long because you
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: may have disabilities that make your life intolerable. That's another
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: question which I won't get into. Sure.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: Which leads to the question, how may dreams help us
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: when we're facing illness challenges?
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: They help us because dreams show us what we already
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: know but do not yet see. So if our audience
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: wants to take away one message from me, take away
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: that message. Dreams show us what we already know but
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: do not yet see. So there may be things in
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: your body that you do not see but are going on.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: The example that comes to my mind is there was
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: a very distinguished scientist, I don't remember his name, but
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: he's no longer living, at the University of Chicago. He
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: was a physician, actually, and he had a dream in
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: which he found himself wandering in a crowd of people.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: And he said to the crowd, where are all the
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: people going? And they said, oh, we're going to the funeral.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: Who's the funeral for? He asked. And it turned out
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: the funeral was for him, for the dreamer. And he
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: was shocked. In the dream, he was shocked. And when
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: he woke up, he wondered what it meant, but not
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: for long, because he was a smoker who smoked a
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: couple of packs a day of cigarettes. And it turned
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: out that he had already a form of not yet cancer,
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: but some form of a lung problem that would eventually
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: lead to cancer. So he immediately gave up smoking a
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: hundred percent, no more smoking. I did the same thing,
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: not because I had a dream, but my wife said,
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: why do you keep on smoking? And so I threw
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: out my package of my, you know, my carton of
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: cigarettes and I never had another cigarette after that. But
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: that's easy for some people. Not everybody can give up
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: smoking very easily. Some people need to have a very
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: powerful dream. I was not two packs a day. This
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: guy was two packs a day, even though he was
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: a doctor. But he gave it up immediately. That's an
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: example of somebody whose life was actually saved. And I
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: can give other examples. I have some in the book
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: about breast cancer, women who had that syndrome diagnosed. I
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: know people who have been saved from breast cancer. My
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: former boss, Rose Dobroff, she was saved from skin cancer
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: because they found it very early. So the point of
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: this is that dreams can monitor things in us which
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: our conscious mind does not know. But something in us
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: knows because even when you're sleeping, we use more metabolism,
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: more oxygen metabolism, while we're sleeping than when we're waking,
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: which is another way of saying that even when you're sleeping,
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: you mostly don't have to worry about falling out of bed.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: Your body knows where you are. Your body knows what's
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: going on. You're probably not going to fall out of bed.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: In Parkinson's disease, by the way, you may have extreme
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: dreams that happen. There are things that don't occur at
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: all that can actually cause you into trouble. You can
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: walk out a window because you don't And in Parkinson's,
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: you don't know, or you can do something which is
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: a criminal because the dream takes over. That's very unusual.
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: Parkinson's is a very unusual disorder in that respect. And
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: it's a neurological disorder too. Fortunately, there are some things
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: that can be done for some people sometimes with Parkinson's,
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: but that's another whole question. I think I've tried to
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: answer your question. The same thing can apply to financial issues.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: It can apply to social relations issues. There are things
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: that are going on in your life that you don't
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: know about or that you're not conscious of. And the
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: big problem with the unconscious is get this. The problem
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: with the unconscious is that it's unconscious. It's not conscious.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: People don't believe that many people don't believe it. They think, Oh,
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: I'm aware of things in myself. I, I believe in myself. I,
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: I do meditation. For example, I have a journal book. I, uh,
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: I talk about things. I'm part of a men's group.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: I'm part of such a group too. I do a
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: lot of things that are, you know, promote self-knowledge. It
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily work. There are things about yourself, Victor Furman,
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: there are things about Rick Moody that Rick Moody does
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: not know, hasn't got a clue about. So dreams can
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: be a big surprise. You know, there's a statement which
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: I'll just read to you, which is very important. by
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: the Gospel of Thomas, which is a Gnostic book. If
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: you bring forth what is within you, what you bring
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: forth will save you. If you do not bring forth
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: what is within you, what you do not bring forth
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: will destroy you. So that's another way of saying that
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: dreams can be vital. They can be life-saving for things
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: that could otherwise destroy you. Not necessarily a chronic illness.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: They could be something, think about all the political people
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: that are working in the world today. I'm not going
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: to talk about politics, although I do keep track of
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: dreams about climate change because I publish a newsletter about
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: climate change every week. But you can be completely deluded
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: about what you're doing and not know that what you're
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: doing is terribly harmful for the world. So one last
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: thing I'll share, and that's from the Talmudic sources, which
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: is a very important source. for not just the Jewish tradition,
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: but the whole world. It's from Rabbi Zuzia, who said,
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: when I reach the next world, God will not ask me,
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: why were you not Moses? He will ask me, why
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: were you not Zuzia? That is, why were you not
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: the person you were meant to be? And that's a
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: question that you can ask about your dreams, and that
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: your dreams may ask you, Why were you not the
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: person that you were meant to be? You're old now.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: It's maybe too late for your marriage or your career
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: or something else, but it's not too late for you
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: to become the person you were meant to be. If
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: only you could find out what that person is, who
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: that person is, that's the real meaning of self-knowledge, the
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: person you were meant to be. That's powerful.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: Very powerful. My guest is Harry R. Moody, also known
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: as Rick. His book is entitled The Power of Dreams
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: in Later Life. We'll be back with more after these
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: words on the OWN Times Radio Network.
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: Humanity Healing International is a small nonprofit with a big dream.
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: Since 2007, HHI has been working tirelessly to bring help
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: to communities with little or no hope. Our projects are
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: not broad mandates, nor are they overnight solutions. but they
• 47:30
  Speaker 4: bring the reassurance that no one is alone and that
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: someone cares. To learn more, please visit humanityhealing.org. Humanity healing
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: is where your heart is.
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: Back on Destination Unlimited, my guest this week is Harry R. Moody,
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: also known as Rick. We're talking about his book, The
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: Power of Dreams in Later Life. Rick, how may dreams
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: help us through bereavement and grieving?
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: Bereavement and grieving. This is a great question because we
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: need to confront that as early as possible. And if
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: we don't confront it early, we will confront it later.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: And that's why I appreciate very much you're asking this question.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: I can answer it this way. Here's the dream of
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: a 40-year-old woman named Marie who felt herself at a
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: point of midlife transition. She didn't know she was facing
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: a near-death experience, but it's the same issue. It's called
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: The Golden Mask. Marie dreamed that she had given birth
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: to twins. Though one of the infants was well-loved and healthy,
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: the other had been forgotten. Not only was the forgotten
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: child hungry and angry, but its head had also somehow
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: become completely encased in a seamless golden metal mask. Now,
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: why does this have to do with death and dying?
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: It has this to do with it. The dreams and
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: other experiences about end of life frequently involve people waking
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: up to the, what I call the breakthrough, to the
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: fact that life is not unlimited. And They have to
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: live the life that they were meant to live, the
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: real Rick Moody, as opposed to the one who wears
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: a golden mask. What is a golden mask in Marie's dream?
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: One of the children in this dream was hungry and angry,
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: but its head was somehow completely contained, encased in a
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: seamless golden metal mask. This is a message to that
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: dreamer saying that if you don't take off that mask,
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: if you don't nourish that child who is hungry and angry,
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: you're going to be facing something very bad. Sometimes people,
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: like the death of Ivan Ilyich, people who've read that
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: story by Tolstoy. Tolstoy wrote that story when he was
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: actually a much younger man, but he knew then that
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: people as death approaches, they begin to realize that other
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: people are not interested in them. They're only interested in
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: what you could do for that person, or who your
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: golden mask is. Maybe you have a high position, that
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: sort of thing. And as the story unfolds, the death
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: of Ivan Ilyich, Ivan Ilyich is more and more disappointed
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: in people. He's more and more disillusioned that They can't
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: understand him. They can't understand what he's going through. He
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: goes through this process again and again, but it's not
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: all downhill because eventually what he realizes is that as
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: he's given up the illusions that he lived by, which
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: is basically the golden mask, he has become more and
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: more himself and he's less and less afraid of what
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: will happen in the future. And that gets back to
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: that thing that I shared with people earlier. When I
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: reach the next world, God will ask me, why were
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: you not Zuzia? That's the question that Zuzia, Rabbi Zuzia,
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: needed to ask earlier. But Rabbi Zuzia, maybe he got
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: so concerned with being a rabbi, but being a clergyman,
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: with being, you know, the big guy in charge. this
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: can happen to anybody, whether they're a clergyman, whether they're
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: a doctor, a lawyer, a rich person, Elon Musk. If
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: Elon Musk, the richest man in the world, if he
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: got a terminal diagnosis, let's say an incurable pancreatic cancer,
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: what would his reaction be? It might be that there's
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: nothing that can be done. So, Even if we have money,
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: if we have power, if we have position, even if
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: we confront people with newsletters and thousands of people read
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: our work as people read my work every month, they're
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: not going to read my work once I get sick,
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: once I die. I need to face right now the
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: question of who am I? What do I care about?
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: That's why I live in San Mateo, by the way,
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: to be near my three grandchildren who live just a
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: half hour from me. But even in that case, will
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: my three grandchildren remember me in the future? Maybe they
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: will if I find the right way to be with them.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: But that's the challenge. Don't wait for a dream. Don't
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: wait for a terminal diagnosis. Start now. As Ram Dass says,
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: I had the great good fortune to get to know
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: Ram Dass personally. He gave an endorsement for my book,
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: The Five Stages of the Soul. Ram Dass said, be
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: here now. That's three words, be here now. That's being,
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: that's here, presence, that's now. That means not the future
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: or the past. Well, that's a very different response to
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: life than a dream, right? not to deny radical things,
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: but to say, be here now. And I greatly admire
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: Ram Dass. You can read his whole autobiography, which is
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: a very truthful document. It was published after his death.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: And it's a very wise statement. And he was that
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: way in person too. So that's what I wanted to
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: say about death and dying. I mean, I could say
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: other things about this because there's a whole chapter in
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: the Mike my book about dreams and later life, a
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: whole chapter on death dreams, including bereavement, including people who,
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: as I said, wanted to get the email address of
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: the people who died or people who saw the people
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: that they had died, the people came to visit them.
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: These things happen. I'm not saying that they visited them
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: in real life or something like that. I'm saying that
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: people can have profound insights into end of life issues
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: from dreams. And that's why I'm glad you asked me this. Absolutely.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: My guest, Harry R. Moody, also known as Rick, his
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: book is called the power of dreams in later life. Rick,
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: one more time, please share with our listeners where they
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: can get your book and find out more about you.
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: You can find out about me on, uh, Amazon, which
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: has a little biography as they usually do of authors.
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: It's quite accurate. I wrote many books. Um, Harry R. Moody,
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: Harry Rick Moody, or just Harry Moody. And you'll find
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: it there. And if you want to send me a message,
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: you can send it to HR Moody. That's H as
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: in Harry, R as in Rick, Moody, M-O-O-D-Y, at yahoo.com.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: And I will answer. I answer all the messages that
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: I get.
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: Rick, thank you so much for joining us and sharing
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: your experience and your wisdom today. that you've so wonderfully
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: and beautifully addressed tonight.
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: You have given me a gift by enabling me to
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: be on this talk. Well, thank you.
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: And thank you for joining us on Destination Unlimited. I'm Victor,
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: the voice, Furman. Have a wonderful week.