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On Our Perceptions of Inequality and the Wealth Gap with Sociologist dr. Jonathan Mijs · The Smart Cookies podcast

• 99 00:02:24,180 --> 00:02:29,605 [zaza]: Jonathan Mais is a dutch sociologist who earned 100 00:02:29,446 --> 00:02:29,588 [jonathan]: yes 101 00:02:29,645 --> 00:02:35,174 [zaza]: his ph d at harvard university and is currently teaching at boston university his research 102 00:02:35,254 --> 00:02:38,019 [zaza]: describes the beliefs people hold about economic 103 00:02:38,105 --> 00:02:38,125 [jonathan]: m 104 00:02:38,159 --> 00:02:39,121 [zaza]: in equal ty its 105 00:02:39,155 --> 00:02:39,175 [jonathan]: m 106 00:02:39,221 --> 00:02:44,269 [zaza]: causes and political consequences it especially highlights the process through 107 00:02:44,285 --> 00:02:46,094 [jonathan]: yeah 108 00:02:44,309 --> 00:02:49,578 [zaza]: which citizens especially young ones learn about inequality and come to make sense of poverty 109 00:02:49,798 --> 00:02:54,887 [zaza]: and wealth his works have been featured in the guardian the washington post financial times 110 00:02:54,987 --> 00:03:01,158 [zaza]: harvard business review the independent and a myriad of scientific journals dr mais welcome to 111 00:03:01,238 --> 00:03:03,750 [zaza]: Eurotrash yeah 112 00:03:03,486 --> 00:03:04,456 [jonathan]: thanks very much for having me 113 00:03:05,060 --> 00:03:07,766 [zaza]: keeping up with the spirit of the podcast professor mac 114 00:03:08,255 --> 00:03:08,736 [jonathan]: oh 115 00:03:08,848 --> 00:03:11,293 [zaza]: you were so nice to put on a football jersey as well 116 00:03:11,224 --> 00:03:11,384 [jonathan]: yeah 117 00:03:11,454 --> 00:03:16,400 [zaza]: so i have to ask you about that first and foremost he 118 00:03:16,375 --> 00:03:20,986 [jonathan]: well i mean i take every opportunity i can this is the the ox which 119 00:03:21,066 --> 00:03:27,278 [jonathan]: is my home time amsterdam based football club the jersey that that they wore well 120 00:03:27,799 --> 00:03:33,509 [jonathan]: replica of course in the nineteen ninety five ninety six final of the champions league 121 00:03:33,529 --> 00:03:37,716 [jonathan]: which they won and i think one of my favorite players ames is on the 122 00:03:37,756 --> 00:03:41,843 [jonathan]: back that yalemanatruly legendary finish 123 00:03:41,691 --> 00:03:41,711 [zaza]: a 124 00:03:43,205 --> 00:03:48,694 [jonathan]: advanced play maker number ten that played for ok yeah so so this is a 125 00:03:48,734 --> 00:03:51,401 [jonathan]: great portunity to show off some of my nineties 126 00:03:51,141 --> 00:03:51,162 [zaza]: a 127 00:03:52,062 --> 00:03:54,361 [jonathan]: relics pleasure 128 00:03:54,690 --> 00:03:58,115 [zaza]: um i'm super into basketball so i don't know about i don't know much about 129 00:03:58,025 --> 00:03:59,465 [jonathan]: yeah 130 00:03:58,175 --> 00:04:00,838 [zaza]: champions league but what's happening with iks 131 00:04:00,605 --> 00:04:01,565 [jonathan]: yeah 132 00:04:00,878 --> 00:04:01,239 [zaza]: these days 133 00:04:02,748 --> 00:04:02,869 [jonathan]: oh 134 00:04:03,421 --> 00:04:03,622 [zaza]: are they 135 00:04:03,614 --> 00:04:03,796 [jonathan]: they're 136 00:04:03,682 --> 00:04:03,842 [zaza]: still 137 00:04:03,816 --> 00:04:04,098 [jonathan]: actually 138 00:04:03,883 --> 00:04:05,067 [zaza]: like a top competitor 139 00:04:06,606 --> 00:04:11,153 [jonathan]: i mean they're they're very much outside of the top to top is completely dominated 140 00:04:11,234 --> 00:04:14,198 [jonathan]: by oil money infused 141 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:16,660 [zaza]: oh yeah 142 00:04:16,823 --> 00:04:24,355 [jonathan]: you know team that that spend literally billions of dollars or eros on fees i 143 00:04:24,596 --> 00:04:29,284 [jonathan]: can never compete with that but they are doing very smart business there they're still 144 00:04:30,285 --> 00:04:38,158 [jonathan]: focused on un training and bringing sort of through through the outh academy really talented 145 00:04:38,239 --> 00:04:40,202 [jonathan]: players that work with the i 146 00:04:40,310 --> 00:04:40,551 [zaza]: yes 147 00:04:40,342 --> 00:04:45,911 [jonathan]: x model which is very much renown tactically and everything so yeah they're always an 148 00:04:46,011 --> 00:04:48,956 [jonathan]: outsider but they've been pulling off some 149 00:04:48,871 --> 00:04:49,052 [zaza]: yes 150 00:04:49,016 --> 00:04:53,544 [jonathan]: good runs they were in a semi find off the champions league which is the 151 00:04:53,584 --> 00:04:55,668 [jonathan]: most sort of stitches european 152 00:04:55,460 --> 00:04:55,481 [zaza]: i 153 00:04:55,728 --> 00:04:57,190 [jonathan]: competition just a few years ago 154 00:04:58,530 --> 00:04:58,770 [zaza]: oh 155 00:04:58,873 --> 00:05:01,577 [jonathan]: and did fairly well last year as well so 156 00:05:01,459 --> 00:05:01,539 [zaza]: eh 157 00:05:01,838 --> 00:05:02,098 [jonathan]: i have 158 00:05:02,220 --> 00:05:02,461 [zaza]: yeah 159 00:05:02,299 --> 00:05:05,103 [jonathan]: i have some hope that that we will regain a sense 160 00:05:05,012 --> 00:05:05,033 [zaza]: i 161 00:05:05,143 --> 00:05:07,439 [jonathan]: of glory that i grew up with in the nineties 162 00:05:08,791 --> 00:05:13,539 [zaza]: good news leaving football aside for a moment let's start 163 00:05:13,445 --> 00:05:13,465 [jonathan]: m 164 00:05:13,619 --> 00:05:18,767 [zaza]: with with a classic question how did you become interested in inequality and is there 165 00:05:18,827 --> 00:05:23,738 [zaza]: perhaps a personal anecdote or an observation from your youth that informs your research 166 00:05:24,765 --> 00:05:25,465 [jonathan]: yeah i mean 167 00:05:25,350 --> 00:05:25,571 [zaza]: yeah 168 00:05:25,505 --> 00:05:30,189 [jonathan]: to some extent i mean i led a pretty sheltered and privileged life as you 169 00:05:30,229 --> 00:05:34,693 [jonathan]: know white boy in fairly middle class sort of family 170 00:05:34,772 --> 00:05:34,873 [zaza]: oh 171 00:05:37,023 --> 00:05:38,525 [jonathan]: um m yeah 172 00:05:38,510 --> 00:05:38,671 [zaza]: yeah 173 00:05:39,006 --> 00:05:44,795 [jonathan]: we i think what would really fled my interest in these kind of topics at 174 00:05:44,876 --> 00:05:47,039 [jonathan]: an early age although 175 00:05:46,980 --> 00:05:47,241 [zaza]: oh 176 00:05:47,079 --> 00:05:52,693 [jonathan]: i only began to really pursue it in college what's his sort of experience of 177 00:05:52,934 --> 00:06:01,103 [jonathan]: living in a neighborhood that was particularly ethnically but those for economically quite diverse i 178 00:06:01,143 --> 00:06:06,332 [jonathan]: think a majority of kids that i would play with on the streets squares or 179 00:06:06,372 --> 00:06:13,083 [jonathan]: in the park beyond on squares sort of infrastructure of that part of amsterdam really 180 00:06:13,484 --> 00:06:14,906 [jonathan]: facilitated people kids 181 00:06:14,801 --> 00:06:15,065 [zaza]: is 182 00:06:14,966 --> 00:06:17,050 [jonathan]: just sort of spending the whole day 183 00:06:16,962 --> 00:06:17,063 [zaza]: ah 184 00:06:17,150 --> 00:06:22,523 [jonathan]: outside and playing with other kids most of those it's had a moroccan or turkish 185 00:06:22,864 --> 00:06:28,518 [jonathan]: or dutch italian background i was often like the sort of only white kid and 186 00:06:28,578 --> 00:06:36,452 [jonathan]: that was absolutely normal and familiar to me but then when i went to primary 187 00:06:36,532 --> 00:06:40,719 [jonathan]: school i found myself in a very different context that was predominantly white 188 00:06:40,511 --> 00:06:40,531 [zaza]: i 189 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:42,502 [jonathan]: some of the other 190 00:06:42,574 --> 00:06:42,837 [zaza]: yes 191 00:06:42,602 --> 00:06:46,168 [jonathan]: kids lived in like massive mansions on the canals 192 00:06:45,820 --> 00:06:45,901 [zaza]: ah 193 00:06:46,288 --> 00:06:51,277 [jonathan]: and and i started realizing just how much difference 194 00:06:51,852 --> 00:06:51,872 [zaza]: i 195 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,124 [jonathan]: i think i perceived this difference at first 196 00:06:55,028 --> 00:06:55,170 [zaza]: yes 197 00:06:55,264 --> 00:06:59,131 [jonathan]: and only later did i realize or come sort of link into the term of 198 00:06:59,231 --> 00:07:01,656 [jonathan]: inequality right but how much difference 199 00:07:01,302 --> 00:07:01,424 [zaza]: if 200 00:07:01,696 --> 00:07:02,237 [jonathan]: there was 201 00:07:03,030 --> 00:07:03,190 [zaza]: ye 202 00:07:03,118 --> 00:07:06,824 [jonathan]: um so i think that sort of that and then of course you know playing 203 00:07:06,924 --> 00:07:07,926 [jonathan]: football and other things 204 00:07:07,674 --> 00:07:07,957 [zaza]: this 205 00:07:08,727 --> 00:07:09,950 [jonathan]: i was in a very different context 206 00:07:09,772 --> 00:07:09,934 [zaza]: think 207 00:07:10,010 --> 00:07:15,138 [jonathan]: so that sort of heaven an exposure to different kind texts and to um you 208 00:07:15,198 --> 00:07:20,167 [jonathan]: know people's privileges and disadvantages et cetera from an early age i think it sort 209 00:07:20,207 --> 00:07:20,948 [jonathan]: of planted the 210 00:07:20,939 --> 00:07:21,079 [zaza]: yes 211 00:07:21,088 --> 00:07:24,814 [jonathan]: seed perhaps for me to be interested in this topic even 212 00:07:25,021 --> 00:07:25,102 [zaza]: no 213 00:07:25,536 --> 00:07:30,904 [jonathan]: i didn't have like a first hand personal experience of being on the on the 214 00:07:31,525 --> 00:07:33,889 [jonathan]: wrong side of these kind 215 00:07:33,769 --> 00:07:33,870 [zaza]: yes 216 00:07:33,929 --> 00:07:37,817 [jonathan]: of divides i was always in a fairly privileged position but at least i had 217 00:07:37,877 --> 00:07:39,001 [jonathan]: that sort of awareness 218 00:07:39,058 --> 00:07:39,199 [zaza]: yes 219 00:07:39,081 --> 00:07:43,113 [jonathan]: i think or sensitivity yeah through my childhood 220 00:07:42,882 --> 00:07:45,276 [zaza]: to um these days you 221 00:07:45,275 --> 00:07:45,477 [jonathan]: oh 222 00:07:45,336 --> 00:07:47,345 [zaza]: mostly teach in the united states right 223 00:07:48,717 --> 00:07:53,505 [jonathan]: yeah once i'm a vain fellow at rasmus university in rotterdam 224 00:07:53,872 --> 00:07:53,912 [zaza]: m 225 00:07:54,146 --> 00:07:56,309 [jonathan]: i supervised these master theses 226 00:07:56,550 --> 00:07:57,150 [zaza]: yeah 227 00:07:57,351 --> 00:07:57,431 [jonathan]: and 228 00:07:57,531 --> 00:07:57,552 [zaza]: i 229 00:07:57,872 --> 00:08:01,939 [jonathan]: i worked in london for two years um at the london school economics as well 230 00:08:02,059 --> 00:08:06,406 [jonathan]: so i still have a very international kind of network and 231 00:08:06,451 --> 00:08:06,471 [zaza]: a 232 00:08:06,486 --> 00:08:11,835 [jonathan]: i'm still in touch with students and collaborate with others from from a the globe 233 00:08:11,670 --> 00:08:11,872 [zaza]: yeah 234 00:08:11,855 --> 00:08:15,221 [jonathan]: but mostly within within europe 235 00:08:15,765 --> 00:08:16,440 [zaza]: hm 236 00:08:15,782 --> 00:08:16,363 [jonathan]: and the united 237 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:16,500 [zaza]: ye 238 00:08:16,443 --> 00:08:19,128 [jonathan]: states but i've been living in the us for a while 239 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:19,280 [zaza]: oh 240 00:08:19,528 --> 00:08:23,819 [jonathan]: i did my graduate studies here so that's that's right now 241 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,402 [zaza]: but you were teaching there for a while right in the united 242 00:08:27,175 --> 00:08:27,335 [jonathan]: yeah 243 00:08:27,463 --> 00:08:27,644 [zaza]: states 244 00:08:27,596 --> 00:08:27,736 [jonathan]: yeah 245 00:08:27,905 --> 00:08:28,046 [zaza]: yeah 246 00:08:27,956 --> 00:08:30,979 [jonathan]: i am teaching at boston university this last year 247 00:08:31,410 --> 00:08:31,430 [zaza]: m 248 00:08:32,281 --> 00:08:38,289 [jonathan]: and during my graduate studies at harvard i taught for four or five years yeah 249 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:45,044 [zaza]: okay i'm asking because i also wanted to ask what was your impression of the 250 00:08:45,124 --> 00:08:48,689 [zaza]: inequality of the you know in the united states when you first went over there 251 00:08:50,898 --> 00:08:53,087 [jonathan]: well that was extremely 252 00:08:53,122 --> 00:08:53,402 [zaza]: coming 253 00:08:53,188 --> 00:08:53,469 [jonathan]: stark 254 00:08:53,523 --> 00:08:53,803 [zaza]: from the 255 00:08:53,810 --> 00:08:53,931 [jonathan]: so 256 00:08:53,843 --> 00:08:55,367 [zaza]: netherlands and and then yeah 257 00:08:55,885 --> 00:08:57,190 [jonathan]: yeah well i mean 258 00:08:57,072 --> 00:08:57,196 [zaza]: ah 259 00:08:57,531 --> 00:08:58,074 [jonathan]: okay so my 260 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:58,021 [zaza]: i 261 00:08:58,174 --> 00:09:02,737 [jonathan]: first experience in the us as a student was 262 00:09:02,941 --> 00:09:03,902 [zaza]: yeah yes 263 00:09:03,739 --> 00:09:09,109 [jonathan]: at berkeley another very elite university although it's a public university so it has a 264 00:09:09,130 --> 00:09:15,328 [jonathan]: different character i was really stark there is i lived in san francisco at first 265 00:09:15,238 --> 00:09:15,379 [zaza]: sis 266 00:09:15,448 --> 00:09:22,297 [jonathan]: and later i lived in the town of berkeley but in both places there was 267 00:09:22,337 --> 00:09:26,925 [jonathan]: this completely kind of uncanny experience of going to one of the most prodigious 268 00:09:27,333 --> 00:09:27,622 [zaza]: yes 269 00:09:27,465 --> 00:09:36,701 [jonathan]: and wealthy really places and and encountering homelessness instance in such a great number such 270 00:09:36,741 --> 00:09:41,629 [jonathan]: a pressing problem that you know you literally have to kind of step over people 271 00:09:41,729 --> 00:09:47,218 [jonathan]: sleeping on the street to get to bed you know ivory tower with academia and 272 00:09:47,339 --> 00:09:52,888 [jonathan]: that was extremely confrontational we always had certainly my child in amsterdam there was lots 273 00:09:52,988 --> 00:09:56,394 [jonathan]: of drug dealers and prostitution and 274 00:09:56,540 --> 00:09:56,621 [zaza]: so 275 00:09:57,035 --> 00:09:59,699 [jonathan]: mlessness and lots of patti crime actually i think 276 00:09:59,941 --> 00:10:00,021 [zaza]: the 277 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:01,542 [jonathan]: we had maybe 278 00:10:01,401 --> 00:10:01,583 [zaza]: yeah 279 00:10:01,682 --> 00:10:02,724 [jonathan]: five burglaries in 280 00:10:02,700 --> 00:10:02,962 [zaza]: yeah 281 00:10:02,804 --> 00:10:04,026 [jonathan]: our home over the years 282 00:10:05,058 --> 00:10:05,199 [zaza]: yeah 283 00:10:05,128 --> 00:10:06,090 [jonathan]: so you know 284 00:10:06,178 --> 00:10:06,279 [zaza]: so 285 00:10:06,250 --> 00:10:07,612 [jonathan]: there was that but 286 00:10:07,614 --> 00:10:07,777 [zaza]: that 287 00:10:08,073 --> 00:10:13,903 [jonathan]: the scale this kind of inequality and the extent of the sort of discrepancy was 288 00:10:14,384 --> 00:10:18,010 [jonathan]: particularly astonishing in california and when 289 00:10:18,224 --> 00:10:18,327 [zaza]: it 290 00:10:18,290 --> 00:10:23,218 [jonathan]: i later had a chance to that was just visiting sort of situation later 291 00:10:23,182 --> 00:10:23,202 [zaza]: a 292 00:10:23,258 --> 00:10:23,899 [jonathan]: when i have a chance 293 00:10:23,941 --> 00:10:23,981 [zaza]: he 294 00:10:23,999 --> 00:10:24,099 [jonathan]: to 295 00:10:24,062 --> 00:10:24,162 [zaza]: would 296 00:10:24,300 --> 00:10:26,323 [jonathan]: look for a graduate school to 297 00:10:26,375 --> 00:10:26,396 [zaza]: i 298 00:10:27,635 --> 00:10:33,224 [jonathan]: to really you know commit to my ph studies i had a choice of a 299 00:10:33,284 --> 00:10:38,974 [jonathan]: couple of different places and some of them really only had to of that ivory 300 00:10:39,054 --> 00:10:41,358 [jonathan]: tower aspect of it and that was really 301 00:10:41,220 --> 00:10:41,460 [zaza]: yeah 302 00:10:41,438 --> 00:10:44,443 [jonathan]: off putting to me because the idea of being a sociologist 303 00:10:44,229 --> 00:10:44,370 [zaza]: yeah 304 00:10:44,543 --> 00:10:50,934 [jonathan]: and studying the world from such a bubble seemed sort of antithetical to the whole 305 00:10:50,994 --> 00:10:56,671 [jonathan]: emer terprise so what i liked about harvard is that it's it's in boston which 306 00:10:56,622 --> 00:10:56,890 [zaza]: yes 307 00:10:56,772 --> 00:10:58,095 [jonathan]: is um 308 00:10:58,479 --> 00:10:58,500 [zaza]: m 309 00:10:58,856 --> 00:11:02,943 [jonathan]: uh very uhsocieconomically diverse place 310 00:11:03,660 --> 00:11:03,960 [zaza]: oh 311 00:11:04,586 --> 00:11:11,178 [jonathan]: and one of my first encounters actually visiting the university figuring out if that's where 312 00:11:11,218 --> 00:11:18,311 [jonathan]: i wanted to do my grat studies was m yeah just just again being confronted 313 00:11:18,371 --> 00:11:22,899 [jonathan]: with harmlessness being confronted with crime and realizing like all right at least is is 314 00:11:22,979 --> 00:11:27,186 [jonathan]: a real city i could do some proper sociallogical research here and i won't be 315 00:11:27,226 --> 00:11:32,675 [jonathan]: completely secluded from all of the social problems that i'm hoping to study and better 316 00:11:32,735 --> 00:11:37,623 [jonathan]: understand so that made it kind of made it feel like the right place for 317 00:11:37,663 --> 00:11:39,117 [jonathan]: me too to be 318 00:11:40,130 --> 00:11:43,516 [zaza]: i completely understand that sentiment i live in berlin now and 319 00:11:43,580 --> 00:11:43,601 [jonathan]: a 320 00:11:43,596 --> 00:11:45,079 [zaza]: it's an extremely parts of it are 321 00:11:45,095 --> 00:11:45,255 [jonathan]: yeah 322 00:11:45,139 --> 00:11:47,603 [zaza]: an extremely trashy place and those are the 323 00:11:47,529 --> 00:11:47,650 [jonathan]: yeah 324 00:11:47,643 --> 00:11:50,488 [zaza]: parts that are the most interesting and those are the parts that people want to 325 00:11:50,528 --> 00:11:53,953 [zaza]: move like especially people want to move into also because they're 326 00:11:53,949 --> 00:11:54,111 [jonathan]: yeah 327 00:11:53,994 --> 00:11:58,601 [zaza]: cheaper obviously but also because they attract these kind of people and culture and the 328 00:11:58,701 --> 00:12:00,725 [zaza]: arts and so forth unfortunately 329 00:12:00,597 --> 00:12:00,738 [jonathan]: yeah 330 00:12:00,765 --> 00:12:02,107 [zaza]: that also brings gentrification 331 00:12:03,227 --> 00:12:03,875 [jonathan]: hm 332 00:12:04,231 --> 00:12:05,793 [zaza]: but yeah i just wanted 333 00:12:05,705 --> 00:12:05,986 [jonathan]: oh 334 00:12:05,833 --> 00:12:12,084 [zaza]: to underscore that i completely understand this this sentiment now just before the interview i 335 00:12:12,124 --> 00:12:16,134 [zaza]: had a look at the global wealth and equality index for twenty i too and 336 00:12:16,175 --> 00:12:20,656 [zaza]: the netherlands sit somewhere at the bottom of the list i think as the fourteenth 337 00:12:21,016 --> 00:12:23,582 [zaza]: least unequal country i live in germany 338 00:12:23,435 --> 00:12:23,455 [jonathan]: m 339 00:12:24,324 --> 00:12:24,484 [zaza]: which 340 00:12:24,486 --> 00:12:25,325 [jonathan]: ah 341 00:12:24,524 --> 00:12:30,515 [zaza]: is doing pretty good but coincidentally my home country of slavinia is the least 342 00:12:30,310 --> 00:12:30,905 [jonathan]: hm 343 00:12:30,776 --> 00:12:32,419 [zaza]: unequal country in the world 344 00:12:32,405 --> 00:12:32,425 [jonathan]: m 345 00:12:32,919 --> 00:12:33,961 [zaza]: which i have to confess 346 00:12:33,653 --> 00:12:33,693 [jonathan]: h 347 00:12:34,041 --> 00:12:35,384 [zaza]: fills me with a little bit of 348 00:12:35,384 --> 00:12:35,405 [jonathan]: m 349 00:12:35,424 --> 00:12:36,626 [zaza]: a pride there i'm not going to lie 350 00:12:36,646 --> 00:12:36,788 [jonathan]: yeah 351 00:12:37,347 --> 00:12:41,394 [zaza]: but having just glanced at this it really quickly it seems that the countries that 352 00:12:41,434 --> 00:12:46,843 [zaza]: are doing the best in this regard are either strong social democracies like the netherlands 353 00:12:47,043 --> 00:12:51,671 [zaza]: or countries that have a little bit of a socialist past like lavinia would you 354 00:12:51,731 --> 00:12:54,858 [zaza]: say that's a fair assessment or did i miss something crucial 355 00:12:54,956 --> 00:12:55,156 [jonathan]: yeah 356 00:12:54,958 --> 00:12:55,078 [zaza]: here 357 00:12:56,518 --> 00:12:56,879 [jonathan]: well there's 358 00:12:56,691 --> 00:12:56,731 [zaza]: is 359 00:12:56,919 --> 00:13:01,126 [jonathan]: a really important nuance here and that's you mentioned wealth but i think what you're 360 00:13:01,366 --> 00:13:05,032 [jonathan]: what you're relaying is actually based on incommunequality 361 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:05,180 [zaza]: oh 362 00:13:05,193 --> 00:13:07,297 [jonathan]: and the two are really to mention so 363 00:13:07,980 --> 00:13:08,223 [zaza]: oh 364 00:13:08,259 --> 00:13:12,570 [jonathan]: m yeah i was familiar with lavinia having a lot of income very 365 00:13:12,591 --> 00:13:12,671 [zaza]: oh 366 00:13:12,630 --> 00:13:19,257 [jonathan]: low level of incommunequality but one of its neighboring countries actually one country removed but 367 00:13:19,317 --> 00:13:24,646 [jonathan]: one of the countries that shared the republic of ucaslavia with serbia 368 00:13:25,092 --> 00:13:25,112 [zaza]: h 369 00:13:25,127 --> 00:13:28,633 [jonathan]: is actually one of the most unequal countries in europe 370 00:13:28,474 --> 00:13:28,896 [zaza]: interesting 371 00:13:29,033 --> 00:13:30,135 [jonathan]: income wise so 372 00:13:31,965 --> 00:13:32,146 [zaza]: yes 373 00:13:32,058 --> 00:13:35,484 [jonathan]: it's far too easy to say that you know the fact that they've shared a 374 00:13:35,544 --> 00:13:42,075 [jonathan]: socialist past put some one on a you know similar trajectory in fact they obviously 375 00:13:42,836 --> 00:13:48,105 [jonathan]: turn out to be on a very different trajectory regardless of their shared socialist past 376 00:13:48,270 --> 00:13:48,476 [zaza]: yeah 377 00:13:49,347 --> 00:13:53,494 [jonathan]: when you look at the netherlands and the same goes for a country like sweden 378 00:13:54,075 --> 00:13:56,219 [jonathan]: some people celebrate sweden or hold that 379 00:13:56,211 --> 00:13:56,231 [zaza]: i 380 00:13:56,279 --> 00:13:57,882 [jonathan]: as sort of the the 381 00:13:57,960 --> 00:13:58,650 [zaza]: oh 382 00:13:57,982 --> 00:13:59,063 [jonathan]: model of what we should 383 00:13:59,100 --> 00:13:59,421 [zaza]: oh 384 00:13:59,124 --> 00:14:06,055 [jonathan]: be you know comparing ourselves to re working towards both sweden and dine s are 385 00:14:06,135 --> 00:14:06,977 [jonathan]: indeed marked by 386 00:14:06,991 --> 00:14:07,093 [zaza]: ah 387 00:14:07,177 --> 00:14:11,645 [jonathan]: low levels of income an equality but when you start looking at wealth and equality 388 00:14:11,765 --> 00:14:13,768 [jonathan]: right so the difference is in accumulated 389 00:14:12,931 --> 00:14:12,991 [zaza]: so 390 00:14:14,610 --> 00:14:16,052 [jonathan]: resources over generations 391 00:14:16,164 --> 00:14:18,652 [zaza]: so like owning real estate and inheriting 392 00:14:18,437 --> 00:14:18,580 [jonathan]: yeah 393 00:14:18,812 --> 00:14:20,257 [zaza]: inherited wealth and all that 394 00:14:20,145 --> 00:14:20,726 [jonathan]: exactly 395 00:14:20,317 --> 00:14:20,498 [zaza]: stuff 396 00:14:20,786 --> 00:14:23,550 [jonathan]: that kind of stuff and that's where both countries actually 397 00:14:23,281 --> 00:14:23,361 [zaza]: so 398 00:14:24,352 --> 00:14:25,634 [jonathan]: well excell at 399 00:14:25,710 --> 00:14:26,940 [zaza]: oh 400 00:14:25,734 --> 00:14:31,443 [jonathan]: being unequal and they are just as unequal if not more unequal than the united 401 00:14:31,524 --> 00:14:37,834 [jonathan]: states for stance which we in our public imagination really sort of is often the 402 00:14:37,894 --> 00:14:42,863 [jonathan]: typical reference point as an unequal country so i'm telling you that sweden and the 403 00:14:42,903 --> 00:14:47,409 [jonathan]: netherlands or many measures are worse than the united states in terms of wealth and 404 00:14:47,470 --> 00:14:52,377 [jonathan]: equality so these are places that combine fairly limited differences 405 00:14:52,197 --> 00:14:52,380 [zaza]: yes 406 00:14:52,638 --> 00:14:53,779 [jonathan]: in people's wages 407 00:14:53,552 --> 00:14:53,734 [zaza]: just 408 00:14:53,980 --> 00:14:55,362 [jonathan]: and such right which 409 00:14:55,451 --> 00:14:55,471 [zaza]: i 410 00:14:55,462 --> 00:15:00,150 [jonathan]: gives off the impression that it's you know these are egalitarian places but when 411 00:15:00,030 --> 00:15:00,090 [zaza]: we 412 00:15:00,190 --> 00:15:06,861 [jonathan]: you start looking into people generation of wealth you see that people start life from 413 00:15:06,941 --> 00:15:08,544 [jonathan]: a very different starting point 414 00:15:09,150 --> 00:15:09,350 [zaza]: yeah 415 00:15:09,165 --> 00:15:14,454 [jonathan]: and have some people have a ton of sort of back up to fall back 416 00:15:14,614 --> 00:15:19,723 [jonathan]: on a lot of support from family and friends and sorry from family and parents 417 00:15:19,763 --> 00:15:24,951 [jonathan]: and such whereas others completely like such a safety net and 418 00:15:24,981 --> 00:15:25,163 [zaza]: that's 419 00:15:24,991 --> 00:15:31,266 [jonathan]: that's where those societies are truly truly really really really unequal even if it's sort 420 00:15:31,306 --> 00:15:34,333 [jonathan]: of little bit more hidden you have to dig a little bit deeper 421 00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:40,655 [zaza]: so with what metric is the most useful here then when when you know making 422 00:15:40,427 --> 00:15:40,627 [jonathan]: well 423 00:15:40,696 --> 00:15:40,956 [zaza]: this or 424 00:15:40,968 --> 00:15:40,988 [jonathan]: i 425 00:15:41,016 --> 00:15:41,097 [zaza]: the 426 00:15:41,048 --> 00:15:41,208 [jonathan]: mean 427 00:15:41,137 --> 00:15:41,297 [zaza]: list 428 00:15:42,450 --> 00:15:49,241 [jonathan]: geni does his job the geni co efficient which is sort of mathematical measure that 429 00:15:49,482 --> 00:15:56,994 [jonathan]: just describes how equal are certain resources distributed among the population of geniqoefficient of one 430 00:15:57,515 --> 00:15:58,657 [jonathan]: means that one person 431 00:15:58,890 --> 00:15:59,172 [zaza]: yes 432 00:15:58,938 --> 00:16:06,510 [jonathan]: has all of the money geniqueofficienc is ra means that everybody has exactly the same 433 00:16:07,171 --> 00:16:12,941 [jonathan]: so there's no inequality whatsoever you can apply this separately to the income distribution and 434 00:16:12,981 --> 00:16:14,664 [jonathan]: the wealth distribution and 435 00:16:14,692 --> 00:16:14,874 [zaza]: yes 436 00:16:14,724 --> 00:16:19,231 [jonathan]: that's how get two two different measures of the kind of inequality that we're talking 437 00:16:19,292 --> 00:16:25,862 [jonathan]: about and on those measures to the best of my understanding countries like lavinia 438 00:16:25,762 --> 00:16:25,926 [zaza]: yeah 439 00:16:25,963 --> 00:16:30,110 [jonathan]: the netherlands and sweden really well an income in equality so they're fairly equal when 440 00:16:30,150 --> 00:16:32,954 [jonathan]: it comes to income income distribution but 441 00:16:32,820 --> 00:16:35,010 [zaza]: yeah 442 00:16:33,355 --> 00:16:38,123 [jonathan]: countries like sweden and the nehlands though really poorly when it comes to wealth and 443 00:16:38,183 --> 00:16:38,564 [jonathan]: equality 444 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:43,468 [zaza]: okay so which are one of the places the countries that are doing the best 445 00:16:43,548 --> 00:16:43,908 [zaza]: of both 446 00:16:46,517 --> 00:16:50,464 [jonathan]: i'm not sure i'm really not sure i mean i think actually 447 00:16:50,352 --> 00:16:50,392 [zaza]: or 448 00:16:50,484 --> 00:16:50,564 [jonathan]: the 449 00:16:50,512 --> 00:16:51,194 [zaza]: traditionally 450 00:16:50,584 --> 00:16:51,525 [jonathan]: country currently living 451 00:16:51,294 --> 00:16:52,015 [zaza]: maybe yeah 452 00:16:52,487 --> 00:16:57,820 [jonathan]: yeah i think the country well traditionally it always was scanning in countries 453 00:16:58,470 --> 00:16:59,190 [zaza]: yeah 454 00:16:59,548 --> 00:17:06,477 [jonathan]: right because of the enormous resources that go into creating public safety nets in public 455 00:17:06,957 --> 00:17:08,540 [jonathan]: goods for everybody to share 456 00:17:08,261 --> 00:17:08,423 [zaza]: year 457 00:17:09,522 --> 00:17:13,849 [jonathan]: but i i think the case of sweden is striking in that it always was 458 00:17:13,929 --> 00:17:19,258 [jonathan]: one of the most equal place its income wise but even that 459 00:17:19,251 --> 00:17:19,392 [zaza]: this 460 00:17:19,318 --> 00:17:23,104 [jonathan]: is changing a lot in the last twenty twenty five years sweden has gone from 461 00:17:23,184 --> 00:17:28,974 [jonathan]: one of the least least unequal countries in europe looking at income to kind of 462 00:17:29,054 --> 00:17:38,991 [jonathan]: like somewhere in the middle so yeah we're kind of losing sources of inspiration if 463 00:17:39,071 --> 00:17:42,642 [jonathan]: anything the only play sort of a world where the trend 464 00:17:42,739 --> 00:17:42,899 [zaza]: yes 465 00:17:42,762 --> 00:17:52,116 [jonathan]: is toward more equality is latin america south american countries that's where we see among 466 00:17:52,617 --> 00:17:58,106 [jonathan]: most countries actually in brazil is the exception but most countries we actually a trend 467 00:17:58,206 --> 00:18:00,650 [jonathan]: toward lower levels of inequality and we also 468 00:18:00,692 --> 00:18:00,773 [zaza]: she 469 00:18:00,730 --> 00:18:09,745 [jonathan]: see some political leaders emerging in recent years through elections new constitution being written in 470 00:18:10,106 --> 00:18:12,550 [jonathan]: chile for instance and that 471 00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:12,541 [zaza]: yeah 472 00:18:12,871 --> 00:18:18,740 [jonathan]: columbia having its first sort of left wing leader now elected so those are kind 473 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:23,329 [jonathan]: of the country that i'd be very curious to follow closely in upcoming years to 474 00:18:23,429 --> 00:18:29,982 [jonathan]: see what you know move a real move concerted effort toward greater equality actually 475 00:18:29,934 --> 00:18:29,975 [zaza]: m 476 00:18:30,042 --> 00:18:31,268 [jonathan]: would look like yeah 477 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:33,182 [zaza]: interesting because according 478 00:18:33,005 --> 00:18:33,207 [jonathan]: oh 479 00:18:33,222 --> 00:18:38,270 [zaza]: to this index which is you know we can take as the golden 480 00:18:37,985 --> 00:18:38,286 [jonathan]: oh 481 00:18:38,351 --> 00:18:40,294 [zaza]: standard but on the opposite 482 00:18:40,145 --> 00:18:42,155 [jonathan]: yeah 483 00:18:40,434 --> 00:18:44,500 [zaza]: end we have countries like south africa namebias in baba also brazil and 484 00:18:44,497 --> 00:18:45,125 [jonathan]: hm 485 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:48,584 [zaza]: columbia that you mentioned as the most unequal countries the u 486 00:18:48,535 --> 00:18:48,676 [jonathan]: yeah 487 00:18:48,784 --> 00:18:51,927 [zaza]: s i see is not too far behind there is there a common 488 00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:51,991 [jonathan]: yeah 489 00:18:52,007 --> 00:18:55,444 [zaza]: thread that binds these together as well maybe not really 490 00:18:55,365 --> 00:18:57,506 [jonathan]: yeah yeah 491 00:18:57,420 --> 00:18:57,701 [zaza]: yeah 492 00:18:58,147 --> 00:19:02,014 [jonathan]: complete de regulation corruption and neo liberalism 493 00:19:03,039 --> 00:19:03,060 [zaza]: m 494 00:19:03,296 --> 00:19:03,777 [jonathan]: basically 495 00:19:03,460 --> 00:19:03,541 [zaza]: as 496 00:19:04,017 --> 00:19:07,202 [jonathan]: right so just letting the market sort of run its 497 00:19:07,122 --> 00:19:07,202 [zaza]: it 498 00:19:07,683 --> 00:19:09,747 [jonathan]: ruinous course um that's 499 00:19:09,624 --> 00:19:09,786 [zaza]: as 500 00:19:09,847 --> 00:19:10,167 [jonathan]: what we 501 00:19:10,129 --> 00:19:10,190 [zaza]: we 502 00:19:10,287 --> 00:19:10,468 [jonathan]: see 503 00:19:10,331 --> 00:19:10,493 [zaza]: see 504 00:19:10,708 --> 00:19:11,750 [jonathan]: in big parts 505 00:19:11,491 --> 00:19:11,734 [zaza]: yes 506 00:19:11,830 --> 00:19:18,942 [jonathan]: of south america chile actually was the great example of um you know generations like 507 00:19:19,002 --> 00:19:22,969 [jonathan]: a half century of now so if chicago trained economist using 508 00:19:23,011 --> 00:19:23,092 [zaza]: and 509 00:19:23,029 --> 00:19:32,825 [jonathan]: it as sort of experimental proving ground to try to undo market regulation and that 510 00:19:33,065 --> 00:19:38,915 [jonathan]: sort of the free market flourish with all the consequences that that had for people's 511 00:19:38,995 --> 00:19:39,556 [jonathan]: livelihood 512 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:40,083 [zaza]: yeah 513 00:19:39,877 --> 00:19:42,301 [jonathan]: and you know stability et cetera et cetera 514 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:42,321 [zaza]: ye 515 00:19:42,982 --> 00:19:43,643 [jonathan]: all i'm saying 516 00:19:43,381 --> 00:19:43,482 [zaza]: i'm 517 00:19:43,723 --> 00:19:46,688 [jonathan]: is that in recent years the trend 518 00:19:46,693 --> 00:19:46,774 [zaza]: so 519 00:19:46,989 --> 00:19:53,580 [jonathan]: in those countries is toward more equality whereas traditionally more eglitarian countries like western europe 520 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:55,743 [jonathan]: northern europe even 521 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:55,920 [zaza]: yeah 522 00:19:55,803 --> 00:19:59,562 [jonathan]: a country like swede it's trending toward more inequality 523 00:20:00,144 --> 00:20:00,165 [zaza]: a 524 00:20:00,496 --> 00:20:00,616 [jonathan]: so 525 00:20:01,711 --> 00:20:01,852 [zaza]: oh 526 00:20:02,281 --> 00:20:05,971 [jonathan]: it doesn't mean that their starting point is similar but that's sort of the way 527 00:20:06,051 --> 00:20:06,492 [jonathan]: we're heading 528 00:20:06,311 --> 00:20:06,514 [zaza]: yes 529 00:20:09,761 --> 00:20:13,467 [zaza]: we live in a time when millionaires are flying into space while here on earth 530 00:20:13,528 --> 00:20:14,710 [zaza]: we have i believe 531 00:20:14,615 --> 00:20:14,940 [jonathan]: oh 532 00:20:14,810 --> 00:20:17,154 [zaza]: more than twenty million climate refugees 533 00:20:16,685 --> 00:20:16,949 [jonathan]: my 534 00:20:17,474 --> 00:20:20,018 [zaza]: every year and the number keeps growing we also have 535 00:20:19,955 --> 00:20:20,155 [jonathan]: oh 536 00:20:20,078 --> 00:20:23,805 [zaza]: people in some of the richest country is on the planet being 537 00:20:23,885 --> 00:20:23,905 [jonathan]: m 538 00:20:23,885 --> 00:20:25,127 [zaza]: unable to afford basic 539 00:20:24,944 --> 00:20:24,965 [jonathan]: m 540 00:20:25,207 --> 00:20:27,331 [zaza]: medicine and health care even here 541 00:20:27,215 --> 00:20:27,436 [jonathan]: oh 542 00:20:27,371 --> 00:20:33,761 [zaza]: in europe and where we pride ourselves with you know our welfare states our neighborhoods 543 00:20:33,821 --> 00:20:37,047 [zaza]: are getting gentrified before our eyes making us all poorer 544 00:20:37,037 --> 00:20:37,058 [jonathan]: m 545 00:20:37,167 --> 00:20:41,314 [zaza]: by the day so everywhere we care to look at inequality 546 00:20:41,045 --> 00:20:41,327 [jonathan]: oh 547 00:20:41,394 --> 00:20:45,865 [zaza]: is growing and it's growing quite dramatically why are we so stoic 548 00:20:45,536 --> 00:20:45,557 [jonathan]: m 549 00:20:45,986 --> 00:20:46,307 [zaza]: about it 550 00:20:46,364 --> 00:20:52,939 [jonathan]: m yeah that's that's a to me that that's a conundrum and that's really the 551 00:20:52,979 --> 00:20:57,964 [jonathan]: starting point for a lot of my research i think broadly speaking there sort of 552 00:20:58,745 --> 00:21:05,548 [jonathan]: three ways to think about why the public has been so stoic as you put 553 00:21:05,628 --> 00:21:17,201 [jonathan]: it complacent but hasn't shown really the kind of consternation a guest or you know 554 00:21:17,762 --> 00:21:21,007 [jonathan]: we haven't seen revolt basically right why haven't we seen the people of hall 555 00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:21,242 [zaza]: yeah 556 00:21:21,128 --> 00:21:25,856 [jonathan]: is kind of the question so i think the first is that people don't know 557 00:21:26,156 --> 00:21:27,378 [jonathan]: meaning that 558 00:21:27,331 --> 00:21:27,412 [zaza]: ah 559 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:29,261 [jonathan]: yes you know 560 00:21:29,141 --> 00:21:29,222 [zaza]: no 561 00:21:29,983 --> 00:21:33,288 [jonathan]: maybe you were reading in the press now in the last couple of years about 562 00:21:33,368 --> 00:21:39,438 [jonathan]: growing levels of inequality though for a very long time rightremem economic inequality in europe 563 00:21:39,619 --> 00:21:40,660 [jonathan]: and in the united states 564 00:21:40,368 --> 00:21:40,653 [zaza]: tate 565 00:21:41,141 --> 00:21:45,248 [jonathan]: has been growing since the seventies and eighties right with sort of the advent of 566 00:21:45,660 --> 00:21:45,860 [zaza]: yeah 567 00:21:45,709 --> 00:21:49,816 [jonathan]: new new liberal policies embodied by people like rage in the us 568 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:49,901 [zaza]: yes 569 00:21:50,156 --> 00:21:51,478 [jonathan]: faure in 570 00:21:51,690 --> 00:21:51,891 [zaza]: yeah 571 00:21:52,841 --> 00:22:00,033 [jonathan]: in england but even like the whole third way new labor movement that also was 572 00:22:00,113 --> 00:22:07,545 [jonathan]: a huge um um motor behind or engine of whole form sort of market de 573 00:22:07,605 --> 00:22:10,851 [jonathan]: regulation which which acascervated economic and equality 574 00:22:11,460 --> 00:22:12,150 [zaza]: yeah 575 00:22:12,233 --> 00:22:17,361 [jonathan]: only recently has there been a lot of reporting on the topic but even that 576 00:22:18,043 --> 00:22:20,467 [jonathan]: i think in many cases doesn't 577 00:22:20,984 --> 00:22:21,087 [zaza]: ah 578 00:22:21,829 --> 00:22:22,169 [jonathan]: paint 579 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:22,142 [zaza]: yeah 580 00:22:24,053 --> 00:22:24,393 [jonathan]: fully 581 00:22:24,098 --> 00:22:24,240 [zaza]: yeah 582 00:22:24,934 --> 00:22:30,006 [jonathan]: sort of factual picture of the kind of trends of inequality or the kind of 583 00:22:30,106 --> 00:22:36,529 [jonathan]: reality of inequality that that confronts us and even if it does of course we 584 00:22:36,589 --> 00:22:39,053 [jonathan]: know that news reporting and news consumption 585 00:22:38,970 --> 00:22:40,590 [zaza]: yeah 586 00:22:40,556 --> 00:22:46,486 [jonathan]: are quite polarized so that some people don't don't trust certain sources and here of 587 00:22:46,566 --> 00:22:53,557 [jonathan]: that distrust of media politics of course so i think one serious and important part 588 00:22:53,638 --> 00:22:58,766 [jonathan]: of this sort of puzzle why there hasn't been more public cause nation is that 589 00:22:58,806 --> 00:23:06,056 [jonathan]: people continue to underestimate just how bad it's gotten but then the question 590 00:23:05,751 --> 00:23:05,812 [zaza]: the 591 00:23:06,136 --> 00:23:09,041 [jonathan]: is okay there's new supporting is there 592 00:23:08,981 --> 00:23:09,164 [zaza]: there 593 00:23:09,061 --> 00:23:14,290 [jonathan]: an other source of people's under estimation or non 594 00:23:14,130 --> 00:23:14,370 [zaza]: oh 595 00:23:14,390 --> 00:23:17,918 [jonathan]: real not realizing just how how bad it's got and i think 596 00:23:17,740 --> 00:23:17,981 [zaza]: i think 597 00:23:18,038 --> 00:23:18,219 [jonathan]: there 598 00:23:18,162 --> 00:23:18,303 [zaza]: there 599 00:23:18,399 --> 00:23:18,640 [jonathan]: is 600 00:23:18,564 --> 00:23:18,765 [zaza]: is 601 00:23:20,175 --> 00:23:25,163 [jonathan]: um and that has to do with gentification as you mentioned and other processes that 602 00:23:25,344 --> 00:23:26,906 [jonathan]: have led rich 603 00:23:26,931 --> 00:23:27,113 [zaza]: yes 604 00:23:26,966 --> 00:23:34,900 [jonathan]: and poor people to increasingly live their lives in separate institutions neighborhoods uh schools work 605 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:35,701 [jonathan]: places 606 00:23:36,450 --> 00:23:36,750 [zaza]: oh 607 00:23:37,183 --> 00:23:40,849 [jonathan]: in a way kind of disconnecting them entirely if you go back just a few 608 00:23:40,970 --> 00:23:46,799 [jonathan]: decades it was just much more common for people to date and be friends and 609 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:51,667 [jonathan]: marry and have children with others from across the incomincomspectrum 610 00:23:52,170 --> 00:23:52,890 [zaza]: yeah 611 00:23:52,869 --> 00:23:57,798 [jonathan]: from different levels of education and all of that we're seeing in recent decades that 612 00:23:58,579 --> 00:24:02,846 [jonathan]: there's a big trend toward what's called a sort that a sort of mating or 613 00:24:03,327 --> 00:24:11,060 [jonathan]: homogamy homapheled sometimes called a network formation based ly people's networks are becoming more and 614 00:24:11,140 --> 00:24:11,440 [jonathan]: more 615 00:24:12,090 --> 00:24:12,332 [zaza]: oh 616 00:24:12,442 --> 00:24:18,713 [jonathan]: of a kind of an echo chamber where we're just seeing other people around were 617 00:24:18,793 --> 00:24:24,382 [jonathan]: gathering other people does that that resemble us in our level of economic 618 00:24:24,232 --> 00:24:24,374 [zaza]: may 619 00:24:24,863 --> 00:24:25,764 [jonathan]: resources 620 00:24:25,621 --> 00:24:25,802 [zaza]: yes 621 00:24:26,145 --> 00:24:29,430 [jonathan]: in terms of our educational trajectories in such 622 00:24:29,332 --> 00:24:29,352 [zaza]: i 623 00:24:30,352 --> 00:24:37,441 [jonathan]: and that i think means most people's actual on the day experiences with inequality are 624 00:24:37,481 --> 00:24:45,963 [jonathan]: really quite limited and that people's immediate reference points um you know are re enforcing 625 00:24:46,924 --> 00:24:49,388 [jonathan]: the idea that they are doing well 626 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:49,942 [zaza]: oh 627 00:24:50,410 --> 00:24:51,872 [jonathan]: and that also 628 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:53,340 [zaza]: yeah 629 00:24:53,475 --> 00:24:53,916 [jonathan]: our life 630 00:24:53,713 --> 00:24:53,733 [zaza]: i 631 00:24:54,096 --> 00:24:58,804 [jonathan]: is driven by our actions by our choices by our efforts by 632 00:24:59,001 --> 00:24:59,184 [zaza]: yeah 633 00:24:59,044 --> 00:24:59,545 [jonathan]: hard work 634 00:25:00,210 --> 00:25:00,900 [zaza]: yeah 635 00:25:01,328 --> 00:25:08,620 [jonathan]: and that unfortunately also is that people who don't do well who are facing 636 00:25:08,503 --> 00:25:08,524 [zaza]: i 637 00:25:09,221 --> 00:25:15,692 [jonathan]: situations of frecarity um may be to blame for it themselves right it may be 638 00:25:16,393 --> 00:25:17,595 [jonathan]: showing some sort of faults 639 00:25:17,940 --> 00:25:18,990 [zaza]: yes 640 00:25:18,737 --> 00:25:26,049 [jonathan]: personal faults rather than structural issues and systemic problems so i think there's a there's 641 00:25:26,090 --> 00:25:32,560 [jonathan]: a very strong belief public belief in merit crecy um which is completely 642 00:25:32,272 --> 00:25:32,293 [zaza]: i 643 00:25:32,981 --> 00:25:34,484 [jonathan]: completely disconnected from the 644 00:25:34,530 --> 00:25:34,871 [zaza]: oh 645 00:25:34,544 --> 00:25:41,916 [jonathan]: facts in a way arguenly it's become more and more disconnected from us acts but 646 00:25:42,016 --> 00:25:42,397 [jonathan]: somehow 647 00:25:42,321 --> 00:25:42,341 [zaza]: o 648 00:25:42,617 --> 00:25:45,141 [jonathan]: if you look at the public opinion record actually 649 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:44,940 [zaza]: so 650 00:25:45,241 --> 00:25:52,333 [jonathan]: believe that we live in a marintocracy is growing is strengthening over time 651 00:25:52,050 --> 00:25:52,273 [zaza]: oh 652 00:25:53,536 --> 00:25:55,080 [jonathan]: most countries in the west world 653 00:25:55,121 --> 00:25:55,222 [zaza]: so 654 00:25:55,361 --> 00:25:55,682 [jonathan]: right so 655 00:25:56,127 --> 00:25:57,213 [zaza]: yeah excuse me 656 00:25:57,476 --> 00:25:58,938 [jonathan]: no just just to wrap up 657 00:25:58,922 --> 00:25:59,043 [zaza]: yeah 658 00:25:58,998 --> 00:26:04,227 [jonathan]: so we're seeing a trend toward greater levels of economic and equality 659 00:26:04,470 --> 00:26:05,670 [zaza]: yes 660 00:26:04,948 --> 00:26:08,995 [jonathan]: in many countries in the west and western europe and the united states for since 661 00:26:09,696 --> 00:26:15,686 [jonathan]: and and it's couple this trend toward more inequality is coupled with stronger beliefs in 662 00:26:15,746 --> 00:26:21,998 [jonathan]: meritocracy maritocracy being just believe that we can make our own lives if only we 663 00:26:22,098 --> 00:26:24,303 [jonathan]: work for it right that's that sort of notion 664 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:29,505 [zaza]: yeah so it seems that the more evidence that we have that 665 00:26:29,506 --> 00:26:29,648 [jonathan]: yeah 666 00:26:29,686 --> 00:26:32,770 [zaza]: inequality around us is growing the 667 00:26:32,735 --> 00:26:32,876 [jonathan]: oh 668 00:26:32,930 --> 00:26:36,794 [zaza]: more difficult it is for us to believe that we're not living 669 00:26:36,665 --> 00:26:36,929 [jonathan]: oh 670 00:26:36,974 --> 00:26:39,276 [zaza]: in a in a maritocracy do we have any 671 00:26:39,215 --> 00:26:39,476 [jonathan]: oh 672 00:26:39,436 --> 00:26:42,399 [zaza]: idea why is that so difficult for us to accept 673 00:26:42,354 --> 00:26:42,515 [jonathan]: yeah 674 00:26:43,690 --> 00:26:43,952 [zaza]: why is 675 00:26:43,917 --> 00:26:44,078 [jonathan]: yeah 676 00:26:43,992 --> 00:26:44,495 [zaza]: this happening 677 00:26:44,179 --> 00:26:45,735 [jonathan]: so well i 678 00:26:45,721 --> 00:26:45,822 [zaza]: oh 679 00:26:45,795 --> 00:26:46,737 [jonathan]: mean so part of it is 680 00:26:46,669 --> 00:26:46,770 [zaza]: yeah 681 00:26:46,857 --> 00:26:47,017 [jonathan]: just 682 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:47,341 [zaza]: ah 683 00:26:47,578 --> 00:26:50,383 [jonathan]: the evidence is out there right the truth is out 684 00:26:50,300 --> 00:26:50,401 [zaza]: oh 685 00:26:50,463 --> 00:26:56,573 [jonathan]: there people like well lot of colleagues of mind sociologist but also economists and men 686 00:26:56,633 --> 00:27:01,040 [jonathan]: are social scientists have ve been documenting these economic trans is 687 00:27:01,008 --> 00:27:01,170 [zaza]: yes 688 00:27:01,301 --> 00:27:04,486 [jonathan]: these inequality trends since nineteen seventy since it began 689 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:04,521 [zaza]: oh 690 00:27:05,848 --> 00:27:11,737 [jonathan]: and their work maybe now recently has got and attention right we have to must 691 00:27:11,797 --> 00:27:13,699 [jonathan]: be katy's book which 692 00:27:13,590 --> 00:27:14,071 [zaza]: yeah 693 00:27:13,859 --> 00:27:16,202 [jonathan]: which of course called attention to the topic and 694 00:27:16,817 --> 00:27:17,399 [zaza]: taxation 695 00:27:16,863 --> 00:27:17,143 [jonathan]: was a 696 00:27:17,519 --> 00:27:18,903 [zaza]: right for taxation 697 00:27:18,755 --> 00:27:18,935 [jonathan]: yeah 698 00:27:19,003 --> 00:27:19,304 [zaza]: and yeah 699 00:27:19,716 --> 00:27:24,464 [jonathan]: it was sort of a surprise best seller so there's that right but 700 00:27:25,470 --> 00:27:26,310 [zaza]: yeah 701 00:27:26,287 --> 00:27:26,508 [jonathan]: i think 702 00:27:26,532 --> 00:27:26,614 [zaza]: it 703 00:27:26,568 --> 00:27:27,750 [jonathan]: it's still up for debate 704 00:27:27,734 --> 00:27:27,816 [zaza]: ah 705 00:27:27,870 --> 00:27:35,049 [jonathan]: whether that kind of those kind of facts that kind of reporting really reaches everyone 706 00:27:35,580 --> 00:27:35,786 [zaza]: yeah 707 00:27:36,695 --> 00:27:40,942 [jonathan]: that's one thing but the other is i think another part of this discrepancy between 708 00:27:41,102 --> 00:27:47,092 [jonathan]: fact and perception is very much sort of socially grounded in as i was describing 709 00:27:47,733 --> 00:27:52,782 [jonathan]: people's experient right so living in a more unequal society tends to mean living 710 00:27:53,310 --> 00:27:53,591 [zaza]: oh 711 00:27:54,384 --> 00:27:55,145 [jonathan]: in a more 712 00:27:54,738 --> 00:27:54,879 [zaza]: yeah 713 00:27:55,546 --> 00:27:57,389 [jonathan]: kind of disconnected state 714 00:27:57,930 --> 00:27:58,192 [zaza]: oh 715 00:27:59,152 --> 00:28:02,097 [jonathan]: right with a greater gap socially 716 00:28:01,673 --> 00:28:01,774 [zaza]: so 717 00:28:02,458 --> 00:28:04,782 [jonathan]: spacially between rich and poor so that 718 00:28:04,752 --> 00:28:04,833 [zaza]: ah 719 00:28:05,603 --> 00:28:09,229 [jonathan]: people really don't see the other side of the of the divide right so in 720 00:28:09,249 --> 00:28:09,369 [jonathan]: that 721 00:28:09,372 --> 00:28:09,473 [zaza]: that 722 00:28:09,449 --> 00:28:12,274 [jonathan]: situation it's also just 723 00:28:12,241 --> 00:28:12,343 [zaza]: yes 724 00:28:12,775 --> 00:28:19,045 [jonathan]: um easier for people to convince themselves that no there are major inequalities that need 725 00:28:19,105 --> 00:28:20,488 [jonathan]: addressing there isn't 726 00:28:20,374 --> 00:28:20,436 [zaza]: re 727 00:28:21,289 --> 00:28:22,611 [jonathan]: structural issue it's just 728 00:28:22,554 --> 00:28:22,740 [zaza]: just 729 00:28:22,751 --> 00:28:26,317 [jonathan]: people that need to make better tiens people that need to work a little bit 730 00:28:26,357 --> 00:28:28,581 [jonathan]: harder et cetera and that's also of course what 731 00:28:28,503 --> 00:28:28,565 [zaza]: we 732 00:28:29,322 --> 00:28:33,069 [jonathan]: we hear and we learn from our politicians right 733 00:28:33,041 --> 00:28:33,243 [zaza]: that's 734 00:28:33,089 --> 00:28:36,354 [jonathan]: that's the kind of messaging that comes from most political platforms 735 00:28:36,940 --> 00:28:37,162 [zaza]: that's 736 00:28:36,995 --> 00:28:44,067 [jonathan]: that's the kind of message we get in a ton of t v series and 737 00:28:45,289 --> 00:28:52,822 [jonathan]: movies or books that we read it's really uncommon for for them to tell really 738 00:28:52,982 --> 00:28:53,242 [jonathan]: good 739 00:28:53,010 --> 00:28:54,030 [zaza]: yeah 740 00:28:54,044 --> 00:28:54,625 [jonathan]: realistic 741 00:28:54,250 --> 00:28:54,270 [zaza]: i 742 00:28:55,005 --> 00:29:01,857 [jonathan]: structural kinds of inequality so so much more frequently do we see these kind of 743 00:29:01,977 --> 00:29:07,626 [jonathan]: racks richest tales in reality television like think about all those game shows or the 744 00:29:07,726 --> 00:29:14,498 [jonathan]: dragon's dan or it's all about the voice it's it's all about sort of people 745 00:29:14,558 --> 00:29:19,947 [jonathan]: with amazing talents being discovered and making it in the world right that's the kind 746 00:29:20,007 --> 00:29:24,294 [jonathan]: of stories that were bombarded with so i think a lot of people 747 00:29:24,368 --> 00:29:24,510 [zaza]: yes 748 00:29:24,394 --> 00:29:31,287 [jonathan]: just sort of you know spoon it up and accept that as if that was 749 00:29:31,407 --> 00:29:34,053 [jonathan]: what our reality really looks like yeah 750 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:35,790 [zaza]: yeah 751 00:29:35,246 --> 00:29:35,367 [jonathan]: um 752 00:29:35,990 --> 00:29:36,150 [zaza]: the 753 00:29:36,030 --> 00:29:40,205 [jonathan]: there's a third part to the question and that's just that the extent 754 00:29:40,070 --> 00:29:40,271 [zaza]: he said 755 00:29:40,305 --> 00:29:45,110 [jonathan]: of people do see inequality and do believe that it's a problem and it's 756 00:29:44,989 --> 00:29:45,009 [zaza]: a 757 00:29:45,250 --> 00:29:46,511 [jonathan]: due to structural issues 758 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:46,362 [zaza]: is 759 00:29:46,571 --> 00:29:48,373 [jonathan]: and not to personal failings 760 00:29:48,990 --> 00:29:49,950 [zaza]: yeah 761 00:29:50,165 --> 00:29:53,832 [jonathan]: i think there's a great lack of alternatives political alternatives such that people 762 00:29:54,005 --> 00:29:54,147 [zaza]: yes 763 00:29:54,012 --> 00:29:59,111 [jonathan]: just reconcile himself with a situation because they cannot even imagine what like a more 764 00:29:59,231 --> 00:30:05,882 [jonathan]: eglitarian future or society would look like that's also partly you know that there's not 765 00:30:06,103 --> 00:30:10,991 [jonathan]: a ton of political platform s that are selling us that are that are showing 766 00:30:10,731 --> 00:30:10,813 [zaza]: so 767 00:30:11,071 --> 00:30:17,061 [jonathan]: us sort of that way man those that are very much marginalized so 768 00:30:17,090 --> 00:30:17,211 [zaza]: oh 769 00:30:17,542 --> 00:30:21,707 [jonathan]: i think that's another issue right it's the time will sort of great narratives 770 00:30:21,461 --> 00:30:22,551 [zaza]: yes oh 771 00:30:23,068 --> 00:30:24,610 [jonathan]: about equality really 772 00:30:24,574 --> 00:30:24,594 [zaza]: a 773 00:30:25,090 --> 00:30:28,293 [jonathan]: i think are kind of past this 774 00:30:30,371 --> 00:30:30,912 [zaza]: young people 775 00:30:31,105 --> 00:30:31,206 [jonathan]: ah 776 00:30:31,273 --> 00:30:36,782 [zaza]: especially have an incredibly tough education doesn't you know guarantee any kind of employment any 777 00:30:36,842 --> 00:30:42,131 [zaza]: more except maybe for a few very competitive types of studies the gig economy pervasive 778 00:30:42,231 --> 00:30:42,511 [zaza]: amongst 779 00:30:42,357 --> 00:30:42,397 [jonathan]: m 780 00:30:42,952 --> 00:30:43,834 [zaza]: younger generations 781 00:30:43,814 --> 00:30:43,835 [jonathan]: m 782 00:30:43,874 --> 00:30:47,640 [zaza]: who are forced to deliver cat food and toilet paper to older people with more 783 00:30:47,700 --> 00:30:48,742 [zaza]: money and on 784 00:30:48,771 --> 00:30:48,911 [jonathan]: yeah 785 00:30:48,802 --> 00:30:50,965 [zaza]: top of that we have the so called 786 00:30:50,956 --> 00:30:51,872 [jonathan]: okay 787 00:30:51,025 --> 00:30:54,912 [zaza]: i don't know if you're familiar with it hustle cult ere being pushed 788 00:30:55,454 --> 00:30:55,475 [jonathan]: m 789 00:30:55,533 --> 00:31:01,783 [zaza]: especially online which demands that everybody should become some sort of an entrepreneur and exploit 790 00:31:01,823 --> 00:31:04,348 [zaza]: themselves for financial gain even during their 791 00:31:04,265 --> 00:31:04,285 [jonathan]: m 792 00:31:04,628 --> 00:31:05,149 [zaza]: free time 793 00:31:05,804 --> 00:31:05,825 [jonathan]: m 794 00:31:05,870 --> 00:31:10,378 [zaza]: with so many things stacked against them how can young people break out and see 795 00:31:10,438 --> 00:31:15,286 [zaza]: that inequality is not a type of personal failure but something that should be addressed 796 00:31:15,795 --> 00:31:15,835 [jonathan]: h 797 00:31:15,867 --> 00:31:18,602 [zaza]: at a society level i mean do you hae any sort of advice or 798 00:31:20,516 --> 00:31:21,719 [jonathan]: hum 799 00:31:21,371 --> 00:31:22,140 [zaza]: yeah 800 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:23,023 [jonathan]: i have great hope 801 00:31:24,210 --> 00:31:24,410 [zaza]: oh 802 00:31:24,567 --> 00:31:28,056 [jonathan]: in a way it's very it's very 803 00:31:28,031 --> 00:31:28,111 [zaza]: ah 804 00:31:28,136 --> 00:31:31,281 [jonathan]: uncommon for people were to really change 805 00:31:31,042 --> 00:31:31,267 [zaza]: as 806 00:31:31,382 --> 00:31:32,584 [jonathan]: their beliefs 807 00:31:32,293 --> 00:31:32,561 [zaza]: yes 808 00:31:32,964 --> 00:31:40,437 [jonathan]: about deeply political issues and social problems like inequalit so it's very rare for a 809 00:31:40,497 --> 00:31:48,330 [jonathan]: person to go from being staunch believer in you know their society being fully 810 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:48,541 [zaza]: oh 811 00:31:48,750 --> 00:31:54,698 [jonathan]: maradrgratic to some somehow coming to see that that you know that's just not 812 00:31:54,603 --> 00:31:54,623 [zaza]: i 813 00:31:54,778 --> 00:31:56,799 [jonathan]: true it happens but 814 00:31:56,820 --> 00:31:56,840 [zaza]: i 815 00:31:56,859 --> 00:32:05,107 [jonathan]: it's just not it's not that common much more meaningful path to real 816 00:32:05,152 --> 00:32:05,377 [zaza]: can 817 00:32:05,207 --> 00:32:06,830 [jonathan]: change when it comes to beliefs 818 00:32:06,652 --> 00:32:06,774 [zaza]: as 819 00:32:07,371 --> 00:32:10,717 [jonathan]: is simply generational replacement it's a 820 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,589 [zaza]: uh 821 00:32:10,837 --> 00:32:18,496 [jonathan]: new generation of people growing up with you know economic charity and not no longer 822 00:32:18,576 --> 00:32:25,107 [jonathan]: accepting the same sort of political solutions that that have somehow appeased the current 823 00:32:24,870 --> 00:32:24,890 [zaza]: m 824 00:32:25,227 --> 00:32:28,092 [jonathan]: lecture it right so that's definitely have a lot of 825 00:32:29,119 --> 00:32:29,139 [zaza]: a 826 00:32:29,935 --> 00:32:34,362 [jonathan]: lot of faith that that is a good plausible and effective 827 00:32:34,389 --> 00:32:34,912 [zaza]: m ye 828 00:32:34,863 --> 00:32:35,184 [jonathan]: path 829 00:32:35,580 --> 00:32:35,806 [zaza]: yes 830 00:32:35,825 --> 00:32:45,160 [jonathan]: for change simply you know replacing people complacent in it's really unequal reality with it 831 00:32:45,301 --> 00:32:49,808 [jonathan]: people who are who are not going to be as likely to be complacent however 832 00:32:50,169 --> 00:32:54,638 [jonathan]: first of all it takes a while and of course there is the risk that 833 00:32:54,719 --> 00:33:04,087 [jonathan]: people will yeah kind of incorporate or embody or internalize this hostile culture and the 834 00:33:04,148 --> 00:33:10,203 [jonathan]: celebration of talent right the sorry this idea that talent is sort of what drives 835 00:33:10,243 --> 00:33:10,424 [jonathan]: people 836 00:33:10,458 --> 00:33:10,620 [zaza]: yes 837 00:33:10,504 --> 00:33:13,556 [jonathan]: success that you know as long as you 838 00:33:13,551 --> 00:33:13,752 [zaza]: yes 839 00:33:13,596 --> 00:33:14,498 [jonathan]: have some talent you can 840 00:33:14,519 --> 00:33:14,619 [zaza]: yes 841 00:33:14,599 --> 00:33:15,842 [jonathan]: start your own you tube shadow 842 00:33:15,570 --> 00:33:15,673 [zaza]: ye 843 00:33:16,644 --> 00:33:23,679 [jonathan]: become become rich and self sufficient and that whole notion ignoring the enormous infrastructure that's 844 00:33:23,739 --> 00:33:28,747 [jonathan]: behind it ignoring the inequality in people's ability to actually 845 00:33:28,584 --> 00:33:28,646 [zaza]: so 846 00:33:30,010 --> 00:33:35,519 [jonathan]: you know whatever dedicate themselves fast or whatever talent that they think they have 847 00:33:35,341 --> 00:33:35,422 [zaza]: no 848 00:33:35,959 --> 00:33:42,070 [jonathan]: and ignoring how talent is nothing that set in stone talent is something that's defined 849 00:33:42,570 --> 00:33:48,781 [jonathan]: in particular ways that's contingent on the society in the time period 850 00:33:49,053 --> 00:33:49,177 [zaza]: yea 851 00:33:49,462 --> 00:33:52,467 [jonathan]: and and that is always and ever 852 00:33:53,790 --> 00:33:54,077 [zaza]: oh 853 00:33:55,332 --> 00:34:02,785 [jonathan]: kind of guarded by important gatekeepers that decide whether your talent deserves a platform whether 854 00:34:02,845 --> 00:34:06,772 [jonathan]: your talent deserves a chance so i'm a little bit worried 855 00:34:06,711 --> 00:34:06,852 [zaza]: oh 856 00:34:06,912 --> 00:34:13,132 [jonathan]: at that people will fail to sort of learn those lessons and if that's the 857 00:34:13,023 --> 00:34:13,165 [zaza]: that 858 00:34:13,172 --> 00:34:17,840 [jonathan]: case then we're not going to see as much change from generation al replacement as 859 00:34:17,980 --> 00:34:19,523 [jonathan]: i as i am hopeful of 860 00:34:20,020 --> 00:34:20,161 [zaza]: yeah 861 00:34:21,168 --> 00:34:23,498 [jonathan]: so i'm not a not a quick fix here 862 00:34:23,399 --> 00:34:23,580 [zaza]: yeah 863 00:34:23,558 --> 00:34:23,960 [jonathan]: i'm sorry 864 00:34:24,460 --> 00:34:29,366 [zaza]: oh good i was just i'm just thinking that you know at least i didn't 865 00:34:29,406 --> 00:34:31,468 [zaza]: grow up with a telephone 866 00:34:31,415 --> 00:34:31,796 [jonathan]: uh 867 00:34:31,548 --> 00:34:33,150 [zaza]: in my hand pushing 868 00:34:33,221 --> 00:34:33,381 [jonathan]: yeah 869 00:34:33,250 --> 00:34:37,658 [zaza]: these kinds of ideologists at all times i could go out and you know whatever 870 00:34:37,858 --> 00:34:40,502 [zaza]: play i was free of that now 871 00:34:40,445 --> 00:34:40,665 [jonathan]: yeah 872 00:34:40,663 --> 00:34:44,629 [zaza]: kids at least from what i'm seeing i'm not apparent but what i'm seeing on 873 00:34:44,669 --> 00:34:48,800 [zaza]: this it's like they're on their phones constantly and and this is what's being kind 874 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:53,462 [zaza]: of you know proposed to them from dusk till dawn all times 875 00:34:53,335 --> 00:34:53,455 [jonathan]: yeah 876 00:34:54,084 --> 00:34:58,477 [zaza]: and i'm just i mean what sort of defense can you have as a ten 877 00:34:58,517 --> 00:35:00,793 [zaza]: year old you know being 878 00:35:00,875 --> 00:35:01,805 [jonathan]: yeah 879 00:35:01,134 --> 00:35:02,598 [zaza]: glued to your phone all the time 880 00:35:03,330 --> 00:35:04,374 [jonathan]: yeah very little 881 00:35:04,590 --> 00:35:05,172 [zaza]: if that's the only 882 00:35:05,117 --> 00:35:05,317 [jonathan]: i am 883 00:35:05,233 --> 00:35:08,367 [zaza]: reality that you know you know 884 00:35:09,875 --> 00:35:11,435 [jonathan]: yeah 885 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,253 [zaza]: am i being too pessimistic you have more inflow than i do 886 00:35:13,415 --> 00:35:13,596 [jonathan]: oh 887 00:35:13,695 --> 00:35:14,117 [zaza]: in any case 888 00:35:15,286 --> 00:35:19,641 [jonathan]: um m i mean i think the jury is out on i mean i think 889 00:35:19,701 --> 00:35:25,581 [jonathan]: it's pretty clear that being bombarded with unrealistic 890 00:35:25,476 --> 00:35:25,598 [zaza]: yes 891 00:35:25,641 --> 00:35:30,629 [jonathan]: beauty standards for instance kind of depresses people's views of self 892 00:35:31,380 --> 00:35:31,644 [zaza]: oh 893 00:35:32,092 --> 00:35:35,257 [jonathan]: i think it's also true that um the immense 894 00:35:35,187 --> 00:35:35,309 [zaza]: as 895 00:35:35,337 --> 00:35:39,304 [jonathan]: sense of competition that is to some degree 896 00:35:39,180 --> 00:35:39,401 [zaza]: yeah 897 00:35:39,965 --> 00:35:45,394 [jonathan]: kind of the reality of um becoming more and more the reality of a sort 898 00:35:45,434 --> 00:35:48,259 [jonathan]: of up middle class families 899 00:35:48,042 --> 00:35:48,265 [zaza]: yes 900 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:49,501 [jonathan]: where 901 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:50,342 [zaza]: yeah 902 00:35:50,182 --> 00:35:51,224 [jonathan]: yeah the path of 903 00:35:51,438 --> 00:35:51,540 [zaza]: yeah 904 00:35:51,484 --> 00:35:56,332 [jonathan]: just going to college university and and and then securing a good job is just 905 00:35:56,493 --> 00:36:03,985 [jonathan]: no longer there for many of us right so that reality i think is definitely 906 00:36:04,010 --> 00:36:04,110 [zaza]: ah 907 00:36:04,546 --> 00:36:06,409 [jonathan]: behind a enormous 908 00:36:06,218 --> 00:36:06,399 [zaza]: yes 909 00:36:06,970 --> 00:36:08,973 [jonathan]: you can call it a pandemic of its own right 910 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:09,811 [zaza]: oh oh 911 00:36:10,115 --> 00:36:16,849 [jonathan]: of anxiety and mental health problems among children i see it here in the united 912 00:36:16,929 --> 00:36:24,362 [jonathan]: states in particular just the enormity of pressure that's on young people under you know 913 00:36:24,402 --> 00:36:30,613 [jonathan]: that they carry on their shoulders is sometimes completely debilitating and i don't think that 914 00:36:30,693 --> 00:36:35,681 [jonathan]: social media do a terrific job of alleviating any of that pressure in fact i 915 00:36:35,781 --> 00:36:37,945 [jonathan]: think a lot of it is piling on so 916 00:36:37,921 --> 00:36:37,962 [zaza]: hm 917 00:36:38,025 --> 00:36:44,476 [jonathan]: that's where i'm that's where i'm definitely i share your concerns same time i do 918 00:36:44,576 --> 00:36:50,746 [jonathan]: think that there's a lot that can be done in things like addressing misinformation on 919 00:36:50,806 --> 00:36:55,594 [jonathan]: line there's there's there's been some successful interventions there there's a lot of sort of 920 00:36:56,275 --> 00:36:59,120 [jonathan]: uh save and know how that kids 921 00:36:59,531 --> 00:36:59,612 [zaza]: ah 922 00:36:59,881 --> 00:37:02,886 [jonathan]: canon do develop in telling a part you know 923 00:37:04,260 --> 00:37:04,523 [zaza]: oh 924 00:37:04,970 --> 00:37:09,237 [jonathan]: you know basically kind of navigating the complexity of social media 925 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:09,181 [zaza]: yeah 926 00:37:09,337 --> 00:37:14,686 [jonathan]: i mean think about how older generations are so susceptible to fishing attempts and such 927 00:37:14,926 --> 00:37:14,947 [zaza]: a 928 00:37:16,068 --> 00:37:21,676 [jonathan]: where younger generations just instantaneously see that that's something you need to you know that's 929 00:37:21,716 --> 00:37:22,838 [jonathan]: not a link you want to click on 930 00:37:22,902 --> 00:37:23,086 [zaza]: yes 931 00:37:22,918 --> 00:37:26,301 [jonathan]: for instance so i think there's a lot of text save with very very young 932 00:37:26,381 --> 00:37:33,069 [jonathan]: children already that together with parental guidance and supervision 933 00:37:32,902 --> 00:37:32,922 [zaza]: a 934 00:37:33,891 --> 00:37:38,338 [jonathan]: could probably dampen all of those negative effects of social media 935 00:37:38,100 --> 00:37:38,240 [zaza]: yeah 936 00:37:39,300 --> 00:37:42,645 [jonathan]: so i think there's there's definitely that but i do think it's something needs to 937 00:37:42,726 --> 00:37:49,637 [jonathan]: be addressed and regulated it's really hard to think of indeed being bombarded by all 938 00:37:49,677 --> 00:37:50,679 [jonathan]: of that for twelve hours 939 00:37:50,580 --> 00:37:50,762 [zaza]: yeah 940 00:37:50,759 --> 00:37:54,909 [jonathan]: a day without any kind of filters having any good act on people 941 00:37:55,364 --> 00:37:58,149 [zaza]: the bit that you said how other 942 00:37:58,166 --> 00:37:58,267 [jonathan]: oh 943 00:37:58,229 --> 00:38:04,119 [zaza]: generations are getting scamped i'm personally terrified for myself you know because technology is advancing 944 00:38:04,199 --> 00:38:05,642 [zaza]: so by the time when i get 945 00:38:05,539 --> 00:38:06,335 [jonathan]: h m 946 00:38:06,384 --> 00:38:08,910 [zaza]: older i think i'm going to get scamped you know 947 00:38:09,027 --> 00:38:09,129 [jonathan]: ah 948 00:38:09,852 --> 00:38:11,955 [zaza]: from the last ounce of flower that i own 949 00:38:12,485 --> 00:38:12,846 [jonathan]: uh 950 00:38:12,937 --> 00:38:15,661 [zaza]: by the time that i'm like sixty years old so that's 951 00:38:15,674 --> 00:38:15,695 [jonathan]: h 952 00:38:15,721 --> 00:38:17,965 [zaza]: a terrifying prospect but anyway 953 00:38:18,245 --> 00:38:18,449 [jonathan]: oh 954 00:38:18,947 --> 00:38:19,187 [zaza]: staying 955 00:38:19,164 --> 00:38:19,205 [jonathan]: ah 956 00:38:19,207 --> 00:38:20,329 [zaza]: with technology for a little bit 957 00:38:21,115 --> 00:38:21,258 [jonathan]: yeah 958 00:38:21,580 --> 00:38:25,907 [zaza]: you mentioned segregated realities already a little bit instead 959 00:38:25,700 --> 00:38:26,315 [jonathan]: hm 960 00:38:25,967 --> 00:38:28,051 [zaza]: of bringing us together it seems that technology 961 00:38:27,500 --> 00:38:27,520 [jonathan]: i 962 00:38:28,151 --> 00:38:33,239 [zaza]: is locking us in smaller and smaller bubbles of common interests by 963 00:38:33,845 --> 00:38:34,066 [jonathan]: yeah 964 00:38:33,961 --> 00:38:39,029 [zaza]: mostly to people that are like us is there still a way to reverse that 965 00:38:39,169 --> 00:38:43,196 [zaza]: or are we in too deep with all the social media now or is that 966 00:38:43,116 --> 00:38:43,278 [jonathan]: yeah 967 00:38:43,436 --> 00:38:45,685 [zaza]: is that is that not an accurate esmond 968 00:38:46,995 --> 00:38:50,480 [jonathan]: no i mean i think it's i think it's pretty clear that you know what 969 00:38:50,581 --> 00:38:58,233 [jonathan]: started that sort of a very much sort of hippy movement of putting computers equip 970 00:38:58,333 --> 00:39:00,337 [jonathan]: with internet i mean meaning 971 00:39:00,330 --> 00:39:00,350 [zaza]: m 972 00:39:00,397 --> 00:39:00,758 [jonathan]: a motive 973 00:39:01,260 --> 00:39:01,441 [zaza]: yeah 974 00:39:01,739 --> 00:39:07,308 [jonathan]: in the nineteen sixties in you know berkeley for instance just on the street so 975 00:39:07,348 --> 00:39:08,350 [jonathan]: that people could use it 976 00:39:09,330 --> 00:39:10,020 [zaza]: oh 977 00:39:09,732 --> 00:39:15,537 [jonathan]: i mean it was meant as a way of allowing people to find um kinship 978 00:39:15,638 --> 00:39:21,688 [jonathan]: and shared interest from sort of around the globe to create community right i think 979 00:39:21,708 --> 00:39:22,148 [jonathan]: there are always 980 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:22,141 [zaza]: the 981 00:39:22,269 --> 00:39:26,297 [jonathan]: fears that oline communities would rot offline communities 982 00:39:26,559 --> 00:39:26,580 [zaza]: m 983 00:39:26,699 --> 00:39:28,730 [jonathan]: and some of those fears are 984 00:39:29,250 --> 00:39:29,270 [zaza]: m 985 00:39:30,065 --> 00:39:30,406 [jonathan]: some of those 986 00:39:30,382 --> 00:39:30,402 [zaza]: i 987 00:39:30,446 --> 00:39:33,912 [jonathan]: fears are you know i have something to it i'm not sure whether it's that 988 00:39:34,012 --> 00:39:38,579 [jonathan]: simple i can think of many situations where you can have both or one can 989 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:39,561 [jonathan]: actually strengthen the other 990 00:39:40,331 --> 00:39:41,822 [zaza]: yeah yeah 991 00:39:41,725 --> 00:39:46,473 [jonathan]: yeah that whole idealistic project has definitely devolved into something completely different right where the 992 00:39:46,533 --> 00:39:53,344 [jonathan]: attention economy that we're confronted with online now is just something completely different than kind 993 00:39:53,384 --> 00:40:00,467 [jonathan]: of unity building that it was designed to be at the same time um despite 994 00:40:00,240 --> 00:40:00,320 [zaza]: ye 995 00:40:00,588 --> 00:40:05,336 [jonathan]: all polarization and echo chambers online that have been documented and researched 996 00:40:05,820 --> 00:40:06,043 [zaza]: yeah 997 00:40:06,598 --> 00:40:14,150 [jonathan]: it tends to be that our offline echo chambers are even worse meaning that for 998 00:40:14,230 --> 00:40:17,155 [jonathan]: instance in united states where politics so polarized 999 00:40:17,820 --> 00:40:19,050 [zaza]: yeah 1000 00:40:18,417 --> 00:40:24,488 [jonathan]: people are more likely to encounter contrary in opinions get different viewpoints 1001 00:40:24,750 --> 00:40:24,910 [zaza]: yeh 1002 00:40:25,669 --> 00:40:28,154 [jonathan]: online than they are to get in their own networks 1003 00:40:28,349 --> 00:40:28,470 [zaza]: yeh 1004 00:40:28,935 --> 00:40:34,524 [jonathan]: their own friend groups of friends and family et cetera so in that sense it's 1005 00:40:34,584 --> 00:40:34,965 [jonathan]: not great 1006 00:40:35,141 --> 00:40:35,306 [zaza]: yeah 1007 00:40:35,586 --> 00:40:39,092 [jonathan]: and there is a lot of polarization in the echo chambers et cetera outline but 1008 00:40:40,374 --> 00:40:43,379 [jonathan]: it still seems to broad and 1009 00:40:43,389 --> 00:40:43,410 [zaza]: m 1010 00:40:43,439 --> 00:40:49,713 [jonathan]: redder than narrow people's horizon uh you know compared to the situation where there would 1011 00:40:49,773 --> 00:40:53,563 [jonathan]: be they could only rely on what they hear from from people around 1012 00:40:53,363 --> 00:40:53,383 [zaza]: a 1013 00:40:53,583 --> 00:40:53,703 [jonathan]: them 1014 00:40:55,380 --> 00:41:01,357 [zaza]: oh do we have any idea what happens to societies when they let inequality go 1015 00:41:01,538 --> 00:41:02,800 [zaza]: unchecked historically 1016 00:41:02,225 --> 00:41:02,452 [jonathan]: oh 1017 00:41:03,461 --> 00:41:05,264 [zaza]: not to be too dramatic although 1018 00:41:05,145 --> 00:41:06,395 [jonathan]: yeah 1019 00:41:05,644 --> 00:41:08,329 [zaza]: i do love a little bit of drama but i read an article 1020 00:41:08,045 --> 00:41:08,307 [jonathan]: oh 1021 00:41:08,409 --> 00:41:10,031 [zaza]: a while which made the argument 1022 00:41:09,905 --> 00:41:10,109 [jonathan]: yeah 1023 00:41:10,071 --> 00:41:12,794 [zaza]: that a lot of civilizations and empires in the 1024 00:41:12,785 --> 00:41:13,126 [jonathan]: oh 1025 00:41:12,834 --> 00:41:16,459 [zaza]: past collapsed because the ruling classes just couldn't understand 1026 00:41:16,595 --> 00:41:16,615 [jonathan]: m 1027 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:22,268 [zaza]: any of the problems of common people any more they were so far apart and 1028 00:41:22,328 --> 00:41:22,949 [zaza]: it seems we are 1029 00:41:23,195 --> 00:41:23,975 [jonathan]: oh 1030 00:41:23,330 --> 00:41:26,435 [zaza]: getting pretty close to those levels today is there a 1031 00:41:26,465 --> 00:41:26,668 [jonathan]: yeah 1032 00:41:26,495 --> 00:41:31,252 [zaza]: lesson on inequality to be learned in history is that 1033 00:41:31,257 --> 00:41:31,419 [jonathan]: yeah 1034 00:41:31,313 --> 00:41:32,322 [zaza]: a gross exaggeration 1035 00:41:34,066 --> 00:41:35,368 [jonathan]: well it's a bit of a it's 1036 00:41:35,285 --> 00:41:35,427 [zaza]: it's 1037 00:41:35,448 --> 00:41:41,078 [jonathan]: sort of the good old why don't the poor eat rich question that's very much 1038 00:41:41,338 --> 00:41:46,391 [jonathan]: you know related to the question that we previously pursued i think unfortunately you know 1039 00:41:47,405 --> 00:41:48,707 [jonathan]: well i say unfortunately but 1040 00:41:49,710 --> 00:41:49,933 [zaza]: oh 1041 00:41:49,929 --> 00:41:53,857 [jonathan]: let me stay neutral in this matter i think that 1042 00:41:53,811 --> 00:41:53,892 [zaza]: the 1043 00:41:53,937 --> 00:41:57,203 [jonathan]: scenario is a little bit less plausible than it 1044 00:41:57,570 --> 00:41:57,813 [zaza]: oh 1045 00:41:58,135 --> 00:42:07,207 [jonathan]: seems intuitively um i think just like you know carl marx's predictions of a communist 1046 00:42:07,947 --> 00:42:08,488 [jonathan]: revolution 1047 00:42:08,446 --> 00:42:10,126 [zaza]: oh yes 1048 00:42:09,789 --> 00:42:11,130 [jonathan]: was based 1049 00:42:11,061 --> 00:42:11,081 [zaza]: i 1050 00:42:11,270 --> 00:42:12,492 [jonathan]: on assumption 1051 00:42:12,232 --> 00:42:12,416 [zaza]: put 1052 00:42:13,172 --> 00:42:14,774 [jonathan]: that capitalism would just go 1053 00:42:14,730 --> 00:42:14,953 [zaza]: oh 1054 00:42:15,945 --> 00:42:23,638 [jonathan]: rye and people would literally have no no no you know nothing to stand on 1055 00:42:23,738 --> 00:42:27,785 [jonathan]: any more and would be dying in the street et cetera i think 1056 00:42:27,780 --> 00:42:29,910 [zaza]: yeah 1057 00:42:28,406 --> 00:42:31,074 [jonathan]: capitalist societies have found very clever ways 1058 00:42:31,350 --> 00:42:31,617 [zaza]: oh 1059 00:42:31,435 --> 00:42:43,008 [jonathan]: of navigating kind of towing that line to keep people needy and ready for exploitation 1060 00:42:43,369 --> 00:42:48,239 [jonathan]: and in precarious situations but don't not drive them to despair 1061 00:42:48,126 --> 00:42:48,147 [zaza]: i 1062 00:42:48,942 --> 00:42:53,616 [jonathan]: um right so we see as a direct political 1063 00:42:53,372 --> 00:42:53,392 [zaza]: i 1064 00:42:53,676 --> 00:43:01,149 [jonathan]: response to communist revolutions and communist and socialist movements more generally you 1065 00:43:01,140 --> 00:43:01,481 [zaza]: oh 1066 00:43:01,189 --> 00:43:04,995 [jonathan]: know in the nineteenth century before we see 1067 00:43:05,450 --> 00:43:05,832 [zaza]: you see 1068 00:43:05,736 --> 00:43:11,226 [jonathan]: you know the forty hour work week we see prohibition of child labor 1069 00:43:11,110 --> 00:43:11,231 [zaza]: that 1070 00:43:11,967 --> 00:43:12,367 [jonathan]: we see 1071 00:43:12,698 --> 00:43:12,859 [zaza]: yes 1072 00:43:13,509 --> 00:43:20,281 [jonathan]: mandatory you know sick days and such right so are just like these really marginal 1073 00:43:20,681 --> 00:43:27,272 [jonathan]: improvements that seem to have effectively taken the sting out of things and kind of 1074 00:43:28,074 --> 00:43:31,766 [jonathan]: proven to me very effective sedative to that kind of public sentiment of a rich 1075 00:43:32,389 --> 00:43:39,504 [jonathan]: so you were pointing to latin american countries as being marked by particular great levels 1076 00:43:39,624 --> 00:43:44,292 [jonathan]: of incomminequality um and that's absolutely true but like 1077 00:43:44,152 --> 00:43:44,172 [zaza]: i 1078 00:43:44,372 --> 00:43:46,716 [jonathan]: i said in those country we seeing 1079 00:43:46,530 --> 00:43:46,752 [zaza]: yeah 1080 00:43:47,597 --> 00:43:55,450 [jonathan]: actually a downward trend toward toward more economic equality in recent decades so so again 1081 00:43:55,521 --> 00:43:55,663 [zaza]: yeah 1082 00:43:55,610 --> 00:44:04,806 [jonathan]: indicative that the societies find some way of doing just enough to keep that full 1083 00:44:04,926 --> 00:44:05,307 [jonathan]: blown 1084 00:44:05,190 --> 00:44:05,412 [zaza]: oh 1085 00:44:05,587 --> 00:44:10,355 [jonathan]: public revolt from happening although you could argue that what happened in chile was some 1086 00:44:10,415 --> 00:44:13,300 [jonathan]: way a real people's revolted right we had 1087 00:44:13,665 --> 00:44:13,685 [zaza]: i 1088 00:44:13,781 --> 00:44:16,225 [jonathan]: millions of people marching for a full year 1089 00:44:16,290 --> 00:44:16,473 [zaza]: yeah 1090 00:44:17,186 --> 00:44:22,816 [jonathan]: and demanding the rewriting of the constitution right so that's that's very nificult i would 1091 00:44:22,897 --> 00:44:23,238 [jonathan]: say and 1092 00:44:23,253 --> 00:44:23,398 [zaza]: yeah 1093 00:44:23,599 --> 00:44:23,939 [jonathan]: the country 1094 00:44:24,001 --> 00:44:24,163 [zaza]: yes 1095 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:32,379 [jonathan]: trajectory went with the new president there has snimbodage has has really got 1096 00:44:32,503 --> 00:44:32,985 [zaza]: yeah yeah yeah 1097 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,788 [jonathan]: put on a different trajectory right so that arcumly that is a very meaningful change 1098 00:44:36,828 --> 00:44:41,576 [jonathan]: and we have to see in the next year's what what's what's going to 1099 00:44:41,602 --> 00:44:41,704 [zaza]: ah 1100 00:44:41,636 --> 00:44:45,022 [jonathan]: happen there but yeah like i said i'm a little bit 1101 00:44:45,167 --> 00:44:45,349 [zaza]: yes 1102 00:44:45,383 --> 00:44:52,514 [jonathan]: skeptical or cynical because i think that yeah capitalist systems in our our you know 1103 00:44:53,236 --> 00:44:57,964 [jonathan]: liberal democracies have found ways to kind of to 1104 00:44:57,900 --> 00:44:58,143 [zaza]: yeah 1105 00:44:58,084 --> 00:45:04,094 [jonathan]: det line effectively so that a real real kind of revolting uprising doesn't really happen 1106 00:45:04,882 --> 00:45:05,043 [zaza]: ah 1107 00:45:05,795 --> 00:45:06,372 [jonathan]: yeah 1108 00:45:06,651 --> 00:45:10,100 [zaza]: i believe may be erroneously that one of the reasons why we 1109 00:45:10,057 --> 00:45:10,118 [jonathan]: you 1110 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:10,281 [zaza]: have 1111 00:45:10,240 --> 00:45:10,362 [jonathan]: can 1112 00:45:10,641 --> 00:45:11,183 [zaza]: difficulties 1113 00:45:11,225 --> 00:45:13,745 [jonathan]: yeah 1114 00:45:11,263 --> 00:45:17,356 [zaza]: in acknowledging any qualities of course the ideology of the american dream underpinning 1115 00:45:17,366 --> 00:45:17,508 [jonathan]: yeah 1116 00:45:18,177 --> 00:45:21,663 [zaza]: you know all of it which has of course gone global a long time ago 1117 00:45:22,404 --> 00:45:22,464 [zaza]: so 1118 00:45:22,536 --> 00:45:22,676 [jonathan]: yeah 1119 00:45:22,544 --> 00:45:27,052 [zaza]: the belief that with enough hard work anybody can make it to the you're from 1120 00:45:27,092 --> 00:45:30,097 [zaza]: the nether lands but you've been teaching in the u s as we've heard for 1121 00:45:30,158 --> 00:45:34,906 [zaza]: a while is that dream still shining as bright as ever there or 1122 00:45:35,018 --> 00:45:35,038 [jonathan]: m 1123 00:45:35,167 --> 00:45:36,369 [zaza]: are there any cracks visible 1124 00:45:37,817 --> 00:45:39,379 [jonathan]: yeah there are certainly cracks visible i 1125 00:45:39,403 --> 00:45:39,568 [zaza]: men 1126 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:39,600 [jonathan]: mean 1127 00:45:40,620 --> 00:45:40,990 [zaza]: oh 1128 00:45:40,722 --> 00:45:46,391 [jonathan]: um you know of course the most most students i see are students in sociology 1129 00:45:47,513 --> 00:45:54,566 [jonathan]: meaning that some self selection there of course i don't get to speak to too 1130 00:45:54,627 --> 00:46:02,280 [jonathan]: many students who by virtue of their their major are or you know on a 1131 00:46:02,340 --> 00:46:07,128 [jonathan]: very different trajectory but you know i've had a fair amount of economic students and 1132 00:46:07,369 --> 00:46:11,315 [jonathan]: physics students and engineers and such in my class rooms as well already years now 1133 00:46:12,150 --> 00:46:12,472 [zaza]: oh 1134 00:46:12,758 --> 00:46:15,402 [jonathan]: and i do think 1135 00:46:15,420 --> 00:46:15,500 [zaza]: to 1136 00:46:15,482 --> 00:46:18,728 [jonathan]: that that that believe in maritocracy 1137 00:46:20,274 --> 00:46:20,377 [zaza]: ah 1138 00:46:20,411 --> 00:46:26,798 [jonathan]: is definitely a lot a lot more nuance and a lot more under lock more 1139 00:46:26,878 --> 00:46:29,266 [jonathan]: tension that said 1140 00:46:29,832 --> 00:46:29,913 [zaza]: ah 1141 00:46:30,027 --> 00:46:35,236 [jonathan]: even though that's my experience when i look at the survey evidence i'm not seeing 1142 00:46:35,536 --> 00:46:41,486 [jonathan]: that translate to a real generational change there's some signs said people today are just 1143 00:46:41,546 --> 00:46:47,496 [jonathan]: more critical of the american dream and such but it's not translating to the aggregate 1144 00:46:47,617 --> 00:46:55,430 [jonathan]: when you look at these long term survey ways if anything believe in meritocracy seems 1145 00:46:55,470 --> 00:46:58,895 [jonathan]: to be strengthening right and i think believe in meritocracy and believe in the 1146 00:46:58,899 --> 00:46:59,040 [zaza]: yeah 1147 00:46:58,915 --> 00:47:03,523 [jonathan]: american dream are very very similar share a lot er features so 1148 00:47:03,492 --> 00:47:04,440 [zaza]: oh think 1149 00:47:04,304 --> 00:47:09,062 [jonathan]: i that what has changed is people's perception of their economic reality and 1150 00:47:10,050 --> 00:47:10,317 [zaza]: oh 1151 00:47:10,125 --> 00:47:19,440 [jonathan]: um um a change perspective on what is required to achieve some sense of economic 1152 00:47:19,541 --> 00:47:21,644 [jonathan]: stability right so i think people realize 1153 00:47:21,443 --> 00:47:21,463 [zaza]: i 1154 00:47:21,724 --> 00:47:23,948 [jonathan]: now just going to college is not so in 1155 00:47:23,942 --> 00:47:24,106 [zaza]: that 1156 00:47:23,988 --> 00:47:28,856 [jonathan]: that sense the good old american dream of doing okay in school or getting a 1157 00:47:29,217 --> 00:47:34,105 [jonathan]: union job and then you know buying your suburban home with picketed fen and et 1158 00:47:34,165 --> 00:47:42,339 [jonathan]: cetera that idea that version of the american dream is definitely gone right i think 1159 00:47:42,379 --> 00:47:48,108 [jonathan]: a lot of people don't believe in that anymore but do they really have to 1160 00:47:48,248 --> 00:47:54,859 [jonathan]: stop believing that through heart work effort and talent you could you know you could 1161 00:47:54,920 --> 00:48:01,747 [jonathan]: achieve your dreams that's where i think people they'll have a lot of now unfortunately 1162 00:48:01,907 --> 00:48:08,718 [jonathan]: sometimes naive believe that you know may be the structural reality is such but they 1163 00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:14,115 [jonathan]: with their hard work where their talents can be the exception to the hum and 1164 00:48:14,196 --> 00:48:16,476 [jonathan]: that's yeah 1165 00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:16,460 [zaza]: yeah 1166 00:48:16,917 --> 00:48:24,269 [jonathan]: that's that's that's sometimes painful because we know statistically speaking that current generations of americans 1167 00:48:24,990 --> 00:48:25,354 [zaza]: oh 1168 00:48:26,252 --> 00:48:33,048 [jonathan]: have about a fifty fifty chance of doing better than their parents economically speaking so 1169 00:48:33,208 --> 00:48:38,950 [jonathan]: one out of two you know americans in this sort of generation is kind of 1170 00:48:39,310 --> 00:48:44,158 [jonathan]: experience downward mobility right if you look at the baby roomers for the baby rumors 1171 00:48:44,238 --> 00:48:48,245 [jonathan]: it was ninety percent end up doing better than their parents right so 1172 00:48:48,330 --> 00:48:48,411 [zaza]: we 1173 00:48:48,365 --> 00:48:48,425 [jonathan]: we 1174 00:48:48,532 --> 00:48:51,109 [zaza]: see 1175 00:48:48,546 --> 00:48:54,556 [jonathan]: see in that sense the american dream has has completely collapsed but but i'm not 1176 00:48:54,616 --> 00:48:58,343 [jonathan]: sure if that's what people how people experienced on the ground unfortunately 1177 00:48:59,591 --> 00:49:00,172 [zaza]: that famous 1178 00:48:59,906 --> 00:49:00,048 [jonathan]: yeah 1179 00:49:00,232 --> 00:49:01,374 [zaza]: john stenstenback 1180 00:49:01,235 --> 00:49:01,397 [jonathan]: yeah 1181 00:49:01,494 --> 00:49:04,239 [zaza]: quote comes to mind socialism never took root 1182 00:49:04,235 --> 00:49:04,457 [jonathan]: yeah 1183 00:49:04,299 --> 00:49:07,945 [zaza]: in america because the poor see themselves not as a exploited class 1184 00:49:07,805 --> 00:49:08,615 [jonathan]: oh 1185 00:49:08,025 --> 00:49:10,529 [zaza]: but as temporarily embarrassed millionaire so 1186 00:49:11,065 --> 00:49:12,397 [jonathan]: yeah yeah 1187 00:49:12,461 --> 00:49:15,226 [zaza]: that rings true to this day but probably globally 1188 00:49:14,948 --> 00:49:15,049 [jonathan]: ah 1189 00:49:15,426 --> 00:49:16,588 [zaza]: not just for the u s 1190 00:49:17,616 --> 00:49:20,484 [jonathan]: i do think yeah so right sort of the definitely 1191 00:49:20,531 --> 00:49:20,754 [zaza]: okay 1192 00:49:21,486 --> 00:49:26,517 [jonathan]: cultural impact of american entertainment industry 1193 00:49:26,709 --> 00:49:26,870 [zaza]: yeah 1194 00:49:27,519 --> 00:49:29,021 [jonathan]: political narratives et cetera has 1195 00:49:28,854 --> 00:49:29,303 [zaza]: as yes 1196 00:49:29,182 --> 00:49:34,050 [jonathan]: has far far far wider reach so that's that's a big part of that for 1197 00:49:34,110 --> 00:49:39,799 [jonathan]: sure but there's also a really strong pcychologe all need for people to indeed 1198 00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:40,200 [zaza]: yes 1199 00:49:40,100 --> 00:49:44,527 [jonathan]: particularly when they find themselves um down and out 1200 00:49:44,808 --> 00:49:44,828 [zaza]: i 1201 00:49:45,208 --> 00:49:47,192 [jonathan]: to believe that in the future 1202 00:49:47,357 --> 00:49:47,519 [zaza]: yes 1203 00:49:47,652 --> 00:49:48,794 [jonathan]: some are down the line 1204 00:49:48,534 --> 00:49:48,555 [zaza]: i 1205 00:49:49,455 --> 00:49:54,203 [jonathan]: um you know good things will happen to good people or you know i will 1206 00:49:54,564 --> 00:50:00,233 [jonathan]: finally somehow eventually i'll be rewarded karema right we have all these different notions 1207 00:49:59,820 --> 00:50:00,542 [zaza]: oh 1208 00:50:00,774 --> 00:50:05,843 [jonathan]: that that tell us that we just need to we just need to work 1209 00:50:05,820 --> 00:50:06,101 [zaza]: oh 1210 00:50:06,824 --> 00:50:11,031 [jonathan]: keep trying and do good and we will be rewarded 1211 00:50:10,980 --> 00:50:11,242 [zaza]: oh 1212 00:50:11,232 --> 00:50:14,365 [jonathan]: but unfortunately that just plea is not the case for 1213 00:50:14,313 --> 00:50:14,493 [zaza]: in my 1214 00:50:14,486 --> 00:50:14,567 [jonathan]: so 1215 00:50:14,573 --> 00:50:14,773 [zaza]: next 1216 00:50:14,647 --> 00:50:14,929 [jonathan]: many of 1217 00:50:14,874 --> 00:50:15,154 [zaza]: life 1218 00:50:14,969 --> 00:50:15,050 [jonathan]: us 1219 00:50:15,354 --> 00:50:17,438 [zaza]: i'm going to be jeff bases finally 1220 00:50:18,177 --> 00:50:20,102 [jonathan]: that could be true i have no way of testing that 1221 00:50:22,045 --> 00:50:25,863 [zaza]: so we've been running a little bit of a gloomy diagnostics because 1222 00:50:26,075 --> 00:50:26,355 [jonathan]: oh 1223 00:50:26,283 --> 00:50:27,826 [zaza]: honestly things don't look so good 1224 00:50:28,804 --> 00:50:28,904 [jonathan]: yeah 1225 00:50:28,807 --> 00:50:33,696 [zaza]: but what's the way out of of the predicament of inequality is 1226 00:50:33,725 --> 00:50:34,108 [jonathan]: yeah 1227 00:50:33,796 --> 00:50:38,163 [zaza]: it the way that the latin come s went like you mentioned or is it 1228 00:50:38,223 --> 00:50:39,585 [zaza]: doing this sort of patchwork 1229 00:50:39,515 --> 00:50:39,535 [jonathan]: m 1230 00:50:39,766 --> 00:50:40,988 [zaza]: you know for the hour week 1231 00:50:41,201 --> 00:50:42,005 [jonathan]: hm 1232 00:50:41,288 --> 00:50:44,173 [zaza]: like lot of european countries did in the past 1233 00:50:44,735 --> 00:50:44,938 [jonathan]: oh 1234 00:50:44,974 --> 00:50:49,875 [zaza]: or is there like a more systemic radical change needed what do you think 1235 00:50:50,165 --> 00:50:52,497 [jonathan]: yeah i mean i mean ultimately 1236 00:50:52,290 --> 00:50:52,555 [zaza]: may 1237 00:50:52,597 --> 00:50:54,580 [jonathan]: the yeah 1238 00:50:54,450 --> 00:50:54,611 [zaza]: yeah 1239 00:50:54,700 --> 00:50:59,108 [jonathan]: i don't know politically speaking i'm not sure what well i'll say tle bit more 1240 00:50:59,128 --> 00:51:03,275 [jonathan]: about that in a moment i think the first things that we could definitely make 1241 00:51:03,455 --> 00:51:09,685 [jonathan]: effort is first dram of information right so eradicating misinformation 1242 00:51:10,230 --> 00:51:10,414 [zaza]: ye 1243 00:51:12,029 --> 00:51:12,390 [jonathan]: footing 1244 00:51:12,540 --> 00:51:13,200 [zaza]: yeah 1245 00:51:12,730 --> 00:51:21,722 [jonathan]: are you know not in nuance his dows mariadcratic american dream tales offering counter narratives 1246 00:51:22,203 --> 00:51:26,991 [jonathan]: to such to such narratives i think that's that's all really important than that's where 1247 00:51:29,776 --> 00:51:33,566 [jonathan]: i hope to be doing some of the work as a as an academic i 1248 00:51:33,666 --> 00:51:34,268 [jonathan]: know that there's 1249 00:51:34,148 --> 00:51:34,290 [zaza]: yes 1250 00:51:34,970 --> 00:51:42,053 [jonathan]: a lot of no recent attention to this topic in podcast like this but in 1251 00:51:42,113 --> 00:51:47,863 [jonathan]: my home country the nethrlands there's been really a series of great documentaries and sort 1252 00:51:47,923 --> 00:51:53,553 [jonathan]: of books written a general audience that are addressing these topics in the united states 1253 00:51:53,633 --> 00:51:59,603 [jonathan]: we had this book the tyranny of mrtocracy by michael sandel was the best seller 1254 00:51:59,783 --> 00:52:00,043 [jonathan]: actually 1255 00:52:00,002 --> 00:52:00,084 [zaza]: she 1256 00:52:00,184 --> 00:52:02,192 [jonathan]: it's an internet the best seller we had 1257 00:52:02,250 --> 00:52:02,330 [zaza]: ah 1258 00:52:02,252 --> 00:52:09,402 [jonathan]: the marotocracy trap the by professor there's there's sort of there's definitely a lot of 1259 00:52:09,683 --> 00:52:14,190 [jonathan]: counter narratives out there now and i think that's extremely important i 1260 00:52:14,181 --> 00:52:14,201 [zaza]: a 1261 00:52:14,371 --> 00:52:18,317 [jonathan]: also think that there's right there it's more interventions to be done 1262 00:52:18,111 --> 00:52:18,314 [zaza]: yet 1263 00:52:19,199 --> 00:52:21,563 [jonathan]: in like i said countering misinformation on line 1264 00:52:21,444 --> 00:52:21,464 [zaza]: i 1265 00:52:22,464 --> 00:52:26,150 [jonathan]: so making sure that at least we can have a public conversation about these topics 1266 00:52:26,018 --> 00:52:26,239 [zaza]: yes 1267 00:52:26,651 --> 00:52:26,811 [jonathan]: that 1268 00:52:26,730 --> 00:52:27,750 [zaza]: yeah 1269 00:52:27,653 --> 00:52:34,184 [jonathan]: starts out from the facts and not from people's perceptions which we know are often 1270 00:52:34,264 --> 00:52:37,529 [jonathan]: very much disconnected from reality i think that's the first thing that we can still 1271 00:52:37,629 --> 00:52:44,420 [jonathan]: make make big steps the sex thing is it's going to require deeper interventions and 1272 00:52:44,460 --> 00:52:44,881 [jonathan]: that is 1273 00:52:45,028 --> 00:52:45,048 [zaza]: i 1274 00:52:45,081 --> 00:52:45,222 [jonathan]: to 1275 00:52:45,990 --> 00:52:46,216 [zaza]: oh 1276 00:52:47,135 --> 00:52:47,357 [jonathan]: really 1277 00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:47,401 [zaza]: the 1278 00:52:47,417 --> 00:52:47,839 [jonathan]: addressed 1279 00:52:47,461 --> 00:52:47,844 [zaza]: address 1280 00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:51,256 [jonathan]: this increasing disconnect 1281 00:52:51,154 --> 00:52:51,174 [zaza]: a 1282 00:52:51,596 --> 00:52:58,147 [jonathan]: between rich and poor when it comes to social spaces social networks and that's 1283 00:52:57,971 --> 00:52:58,154 [zaza]: yes 1284 00:52:58,207 --> 00:53:06,882 [jonathan]: where you know making a real effort to integrate cano let speaking neighborhoods schools even 1285 00:53:06,942 --> 00:53:12,010 [jonathan]: work places to invest in public spaces where people can 1286 00:53:11,991 --> 00:53:12,091 [zaza]: ah 1287 00:53:12,391 --> 00:53:20,585 [jonathan]: can encounter get to know um er right so a reversal of the austerity measures 1288 00:53:20,725 --> 00:53:26,214 [jonathan]: that have really i think undermined a lot of public resources in the re investment 1289 00:53:26,274 --> 00:53:30,141 [jonathan]: in tow places in those institutions i think 1290 00:53:30,210 --> 00:53:30,311 [zaza]: the 1291 00:53:30,742 --> 00:53:34,568 [jonathan]: is going to do a lot of good not just into services provided but 1292 00:53:34,481 --> 00:53:34,501 [zaza]: i 1293 00:53:34,648 --> 00:53:41,139 [jonathan]: also in creating these meeting grounds from which we can have stronger bonds more solidarity 1294 00:53:41,780 --> 00:53:43,463 [jonathan]: better understanding and 1295 00:53:43,380 --> 00:53:43,600 [zaza]: yeah 1296 00:53:44,044 --> 00:53:48,211 [jonathan]: just a greater awareness of what kind of society we're living in and what people 1297 00:53:48,772 --> 00:53:52,197 [jonathan]: at each side of that economic you know what their lives 1298 00:53:52,050 --> 00:53:52,650 [zaza]: yes 1299 00:53:52,298 --> 00:53:56,765 [jonathan]: look like right so i think that's that's really really important and that's where government 1300 00:53:56,825 --> 00:54:00,691 [jonathan]: and social policy can can can accomplish a lot right it just needs to be 1301 00:54:00,732 --> 00:54:07,197 [jonathan]: accepted as as an sul policy concerned in the first place now 1302 00:54:07,101 --> 00:54:07,161 [zaza]: no 1303 00:54:08,625 --> 00:54:12,552 [jonathan]: if all my advice is taken then i think we're going to get 1304 00:54:12,420 --> 00:54:13,620 [zaza]: yeah 1305 00:54:14,435 --> 00:54:19,984 [jonathan]: a political conversation that again starts from the facts and is rooted in people's actual 1306 00:54:20,465 --> 00:54:21,687 [jonathan]: incest and that 1307 00:54:21,552 --> 00:54:21,714 [zaza]: that 1308 00:54:21,807 --> 00:54:21,907 [jonathan]: is 1309 00:54:21,835 --> 00:54:21,936 [zaza]: is 1310 00:54:22,028 --> 00:54:22,368 [jonathan]: likely 1311 00:54:22,058 --> 00:54:22,159 [zaza]: my 1312 00:54:22,608 --> 00:54:29,260 [jonathan]: to desire relate to a desire for greater equality and more redistribution then it becomes 1313 00:54:29,300 --> 00:54:31,263 [jonathan]: a matter of do we have 1314 00:54:31,191 --> 00:54:31,272 [zaza]: he 1315 00:54:31,303 --> 00:54:37,193 [jonathan]: the institutions in play so that public opinion in public the public will will actually 1316 00:54:37,073 --> 00:54:37,378 [zaza]: actually 1317 00:54:37,253 --> 00:54:43,223 [jonathan]: become political and material reality and i think that's where there's a lot of distortions 1318 00:54:43,764 --> 00:54:49,874 [jonathan]: in a lot our political system that don't allow broadly shared 1319 00:54:49,412 --> 00:54:49,638 [zaza]: she 1320 00:54:50,475 --> 00:54:51,617 [jonathan]: wants and desires 1321 00:54:51,756 --> 00:54:51,900 [zaza]: yes 1322 00:54:52,138 --> 00:54:57,747 [jonathan]: to to make it to the policy to really inform the political and it's been 1323 00:54:57,787 --> 00:55:02,395 [jonathan]: document to the united states documented to cross western countries as well i mean western 1324 00:55:02,455 --> 00:55:10,288 [jonathan]: european countries as well a lot of politics follows the the opinion elite but not 1325 00:55:10,508 --> 00:55:17,760 [jonathan]: the opinion of the broader population a lot of political decisions correlate very strongly with 1326 00:55:17,961 --> 00:55:24,472 [jonathan]: political interest groups and lobbies and in corporations but almost doesn't correlate at all 1327 00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:25,680 [zaza]: yeah 1328 00:55:24,952 --> 00:55:30,061 [jonathan]: with general trends in popular opinion right so there's a real disconnect as well between 1329 00:55:30,201 --> 00:55:36,532 [jonathan]: political elite and m p and that's where we may need to make some political 1330 00:55:37,620 --> 00:55:37,928 [zaza]: oh 1331 00:55:37,854 --> 00:55:38,575 [jonathan]: you know transform 1332 00:55:38,545 --> 00:55:38,998 [zaza]: transpor 1333 00:55:38,655 --> 00:55:45,587 [jonathan]: our political institutions to actually have that direct translation between what people and what we 1334 00:55:45,627 --> 00:55:50,235 [jonathan]: can make reality through our political institutions that's where a lot of work still still 1335 00:55:50,275 --> 00:55:50,976 [jonathan]: needs to be done and that's 1336 00:55:50,872 --> 00:55:51,034 [zaza]: let's 1337 00:55:51,016 --> 00:55:52,538 [jonathan]: going to be that's kind to be challenging 1338 00:55:53,151 --> 00:55:53,313 [zaza]: yeah 1339 00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,886 [jonathan]: but then yeah then we get to the last bit right we have we have 1340 00:55:56,966 --> 00:56:00,772 [jonathan]: the de knowledge we have the desire and we have 1341 00:56:00,570 --> 00:56:00,813 [zaza]: yeah 1342 00:56:00,852 --> 00:56:01,694 [jonathan]: the political 1343 00:56:01,808 --> 00:56:01,890 [zaza]: yeah 1344 00:56:01,954 --> 00:56:04,498 [jonathan]: sort of will and then 1345 00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:04,660 [zaza]: yeah 1346 00:56:04,779 --> 00:56:08,785 [jonathan]: i think we need to have a clear vision of what equality he is we 1347 00:56:08,846 --> 00:56:12,211 [jonathan]: talk about inequality at the time but what does equality what does that 1348 00:56:12,264 --> 00:56:12,285 [zaza]: i 1349 00:56:12,331 --> 00:56:18,061 [jonathan]: look like are we talking about right there's a false distinction between equality of opportunity 1350 00:56:18,121 --> 00:56:19,644 [jonathan]: and quality of those things 1351 00:56:19,532 --> 00:56:19,552 [zaza]: i 1352 00:56:19,684 --> 00:56:26,876 [jonathan]: are not this they're fully integrated those two things right but but how much equality 1353 00:56:27,176 --> 00:56:30,702 [jonathan]: do we want and how much inequality do we tolerate i think that's the kind 1354 00:56:30,742 --> 00:56:31,523 [jonathan]: of conversation 1355 00:56:31,253 --> 00:56:31,458 [zaza]: issue 1356 00:56:31,964 --> 00:56:33,226 [jonathan]: that it's only just 1357 00:56:33,144 --> 00:56:33,267 [zaza]: yes 1358 00:56:33,346 --> 00:56:33,807 [jonathan]: beginning 1359 00:56:33,864 --> 00:56:33,885 [zaza]: i 1360 00:56:34,068 --> 00:56:40,639 [jonathan]: i mean it's been of course debated in philosophy for for for for centuries or 1361 00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:42,482 [jonathan]: centuries but i think we need 1362 00:56:42,371 --> 00:56:42,391 [zaza]: i 1363 00:56:42,502 --> 00:56:46,618 [jonathan]: to have a public conversation about this there's two so there's been really interesting research 1364 00:56:46,679 --> 00:56:51,280 [jonathan]: recently um by colics of mine both in london and in 1365 00:56:51,240 --> 00:56:52,058 [zaza]: ye 1366 00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:55,527 [jonathan]: the netherlands where they have tried to documents you know we're all familiar with this 1367 00:56:55,608 --> 00:57:01,437 [jonathan]: concept of a poverty line right some sort of some sort of point below which 1368 00:57:01,998 --> 00:57:04,723 [jonathan]: just life is impossible right but 1369 00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:05,121 [zaza]: you 1370 00:57:05,063 --> 00:57:07,708 [jonathan]: should there perhaps be a richest line right 1371 00:57:07,780 --> 00:57:07,840 [zaza]: she 1372 00:57:07,808 --> 00:57:12,776 [jonathan]: should there perhaps be a point at which we just don't accept people to 1373 00:57:12,720 --> 00:57:13,830 [zaza]: yeah 1374 00:57:13,317 --> 00:57:17,724 [jonathan]: have more resources than that right and where would we put that in the netherlands 1375 00:57:17,550 --> 00:57:17,611 [zaza]: at 1376 00:57:17,825 --> 00:57:23,774 [jonathan]: interestingly people arrived at a limit of about i think it was about three million 1377 00:57:23,935 --> 00:57:29,264 [jonathan]: eros basically you can have a second house you can have a nice car but 1378 00:57:29,344 --> 00:57:33,411 [jonathan]: when you get a second house a nice car and a pool that's where we 1379 00:57:33,571 --> 00:57:37,619 [jonathan]: that's where we draw the limit so but but just to say that there's there 1380 00:57:37,700 --> 00:57:42,392 [jonathan]: seems to be an intuitive sense in which people are willing to say enough is 1381 00:57:42,452 --> 00:57:42,753 [jonathan]: enough 1382 00:57:43,380 --> 00:57:43,640 [zaza]: yeah 1383 00:57:44,116 --> 00:57:48,142 [jonathan]: and that's the kind of conversation we need to be having and that's the kind 1384 00:57:48,223 --> 00:57:52,229 [jonathan]: of difficult questions that i think we need to resolve so that 1385 00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:52,260 [zaza]: we 1386 00:57:52,269 --> 00:57:52,329 [jonathan]: we 1387 00:57:52,321 --> 00:57:52,401 [zaza]: can 1388 00:57:52,389 --> 00:57:54,613 [jonathan]: can actually make steps toward designing 1389 00:57:54,312 --> 00:57:54,536 [zaza]: i think 1390 00:57:54,713 --> 00:57:59,541 [jonathan]: that that more gnitarian and equal society that we want it but we first need 1391 00:57:59,541 --> 00:57:59,622 [zaza]: ah 1392 00:57:59,581 --> 00:58:00,503 [jonathan]: to have a vision for it 1393 00:58:02,412 --> 00:58:04,616 [zaza]: um in the era of fake 1394 00:58:04,466 --> 00:58:04,727 [jonathan]: okay 1395 00:58:04,696 --> 00:58:07,040 [zaza]: news it seems very difficult 1396 00:58:06,665 --> 00:58:06,886 [jonathan]: yeah 1397 00:58:07,100 --> 00:58:08,983 [zaza]: to have these conversations because as 1398 00:58:09,005 --> 00:58:09,266 [jonathan]: oh 1399 00:58:09,043 --> 00:58:11,908 [zaza]: soon as you mentioned something along those lines like 1400 00:58:13,385 --> 00:58:13,565 [jonathan]: yeah 1401 00:58:13,512 --> 00:58:15,882 [zaza]: what did you call it the richest line the 1402 00:58:15,876 --> 00:58:15,996 [jonathan]: yeah 1403 00:58:15,922 --> 00:58:16,206 [zaza]: richest 1404 00:58:16,097 --> 00:58:16,298 [jonathan]: riches 1405 00:58:16,267 --> 00:58:16,510 [zaza]: line 1406 00:58:16,358 --> 00:58:16,699 [jonathan]: line yeah 1407 00:58:17,350 --> 00:58:19,712 [zaza]: uh you hear all stalinism is 1408 00:58:19,685 --> 00:58:19,905 [jonathan]: yeah 1409 00:58:19,772 --> 00:58:21,133 [zaza]: coming they're coming to take 1410 00:58:21,088 --> 00:58:21,229 [jonathan]: yeah 1411 00:58:21,193 --> 00:58:23,615 [zaza]: your they're coming to take your heart earned 1412 00:58:24,216 --> 00:58:24,356 [jonathan]: yeah 1413 00:58:24,236 --> 00:58:25,737 [zaza]: you know diners from 1414 00:58:25,664 --> 00:58:25,805 [jonathan]: yeah 1415 00:58:25,797 --> 00:58:26,758 [zaza]: you so 1416 00:58:26,795 --> 00:58:26,916 [jonathan]: yeah 1417 00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:29,842 [zaza]: these kind of circumstances 1418 00:58:29,255 --> 00:58:30,240 [jonathan]: oh 1419 00:58:29,902 --> 00:58:34,068 [zaza]: it's really difficult to have any sort of meaningful dialogue in the public sphere 1420 00:58:34,216 --> 00:58:38,343 [jonathan]: no it is but again i think it is intrinsically 1421 00:58:37,802 --> 00:58:38,291 [zaza]: basically 1422 00:58:38,503 --> 00:58:39,264 [jonathan]: it's a problem 1423 00:58:39,450 --> 00:58:39,693 [zaza]: oh 1424 00:58:39,565 --> 00:58:41,307 [jonathan]: of imagination 1425 00:58:40,862 --> 00:58:40,882 [zaza]: i 1426 00:58:41,488 --> 00:58:46,656 [jonathan]: it's a lack of imagination right as you said like our first thought or not 1427 00:58:46,817 --> 00:58:48,079 [jonathan]: mine maybe probably 1428 00:58:47,890 --> 00:58:47,950 [zaza]: we 1429 00:58:48,139 --> 00:58:53,728 [jonathan]: not yours either but for a lot of people the first thought is communism or 1430 00:58:53,788 --> 00:58:56,212 [jonathan]: satanism um my 1431 00:58:56,193 --> 00:58:56,439 [zaza]: as 1432 00:58:56,413 --> 00:58:57,034 [jonathan]: ism is a little bit 1433 00:58:56,980 --> 00:58:57,122 [zaza]: yes 1434 00:58:57,074 --> 00:58:59,299 [jonathan]: less familiar in our context but right 1435 00:58:59,260 --> 00:58:59,402 [zaza]: the 1436 00:58:59,339 --> 00:59:06,567 [jonathan]: there's these extremes and these historical realities of complete totalitarian regimes that we have somehow 1437 00:59:06,687 --> 00:59:10,373 [jonathan]: equated with communism whereas the two are completely distinct of course 1438 00:59:10,921 --> 00:59:11,001 [zaza]: but 1439 00:59:10,994 --> 00:59:17,886 [jonathan]: but it's that historical trauma of living in those societies marked by tottitarianism by ruption 1440 00:59:19,168 --> 00:59:25,077 [jonathan]: that actually has i think fueled a lot of neo liberal politics such that lavinia 1441 00:59:25,959 --> 00:59:27,321 [jonathan]: is an exception but many 1442 00:59:27,201 --> 00:59:27,647 [zaza]: i lose 1443 00:59:27,461 --> 00:59:33,572 [jonathan]: post socialist countries are actual ly becoming more and more unequal having elected very right 1444 00:59:33,672 --> 00:59:37,859 [jonathan]: wing pro market leaders in completely understandable 1445 00:59:38,130 --> 00:59:38,371 [zaza]: oh 1446 00:59:38,660 --> 00:59:45,431 [jonathan]: but i would say pretty true jake um kind of attempt to reject that their 1447 00:59:46,233 --> 00:59:47,575 [jonathan]: deal with their historical trade 1448 00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:47,542 [zaza]: oh 1449 00:59:47,976 --> 00:59:53,745 [jonathan]: but at the same time you know make political choices that put them you know 1450 00:59:54,406 --> 00:59:57,071 [jonathan]: in a in a extremely supoptimal situation 1451 00:59:56,700 --> 00:59:58,149 [zaza]: yes so 1452 00:59:58,033 --> 00:59:58,173 [jonathan]: so 1453 00:59:59,450 --> 00:59:59,611 [zaza]: yeah 1454 00:59:59,465 --> 01:00:03,712 [jonathan]: again right we need to have a sense of what so for instance democratic 1455 01:00:03,370 --> 01:00:04,198 [zaza]: i'm betting socialist 1456 01:00:03,792 --> 01:00:11,344 [jonathan]: socialism right is becoming is getting some traction so that's one way to actually visualize 1457 01:00:11,605 --> 01:00:17,074 [jonathan]: and may concrete what we could be striving for to right i think we need 1458 01:00:17,134 --> 01:00:22,643 [jonathan]: more we need more lturnitits but they need to be they need to be fairly 1459 01:00:22,803 --> 01:00:26,830 [jonathan]: concrete sort of visualizations 1460 01:00:26,100 --> 01:00:26,927 [zaza]: stress 1461 01:00:27,071 --> 01:00:33,401 [jonathan]: of our imagination so that we can move away from those scary almost tropes like 1462 01:00:33,561 --> 01:00:34,142 [jonathan]: stallomism 1463 01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:34,582 [zaza]: oh 1464 01:00:34,243 --> 01:00:38,753 [jonathan]: and such as if were the only solution the only alternative to capitalism right 1465 01:00:38,614 --> 01:00:41,546 [zaza]: ah um since you threw down the 1466 01:00:41,465 --> 01:00:42,185 [jonathan]: oh 1467 01:00:41,586 --> 01:00:46,920 [zaza]: gauntlet um m i'm going to throw it right back what would 1468 01:00:46,775 --> 01:00:46,917 [jonathan]: oh 1469 01:00:47,281 --> 01:00:47,763 [zaza]: equality 1470 01:00:47,934 --> 01:00:47,975 [jonathan]: ah 1471 01:00:48,486 --> 01:00:51,971 [zaza]: look like what do you think or what 1472 01:00:51,995 --> 01:00:52,256 [jonathan]: oh 1473 01:00:52,011 --> 01:00:52,875 [zaza]: is the quality to you 1474 01:00:53,384 --> 01:00:54,227 [jonathan]: h yeah 1475 01:00:57,355 --> 01:01:01,062 [jonathan]: i mean okay so first of all cop out i think it's up for a 1476 01:01:01,142 --> 01:01:05,509 [jonathan]: public conversation every community should have like their say and both on that i'm not 1477 01:01:05,529 --> 01:01:09,475 [jonathan]: going to dictate what what equality should mean but i guess there's 1478 01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:09,461 [zaza]: yes 1479 01:01:09,515 --> 01:01:15,121 [jonathan]: a couple of sociallogical and philosophical sort of elements that go into it that i 1480 01:01:15,201 --> 01:01:17,883 [jonathan]: think are very reasonable one 1481 01:01:17,922 --> 01:01:18,144 [zaza]: yes 1482 01:01:17,983 --> 01:01:20,898 [jonathan]: is make a distinction 1483 01:01:20,700 --> 01:01:20,922 [zaza]: yeah 1484 01:01:20,958 --> 01:01:25,044 [jonathan]: between difference and inequality right so i don't think people want to live in a 1485 01:01:25,085 --> 01:01:30,494 [jonathan]: society where there is no difference we are all different we have different tastes and 1486 01:01:30,594 --> 01:01:37,525 [jonathan]: preference and and traits and biologies um so working towards a system where that is 1487 01:01:37,585 --> 01:01:42,934 [jonathan]: celebrated and doesn't translate into inequalities right so 1488 01:01:42,971 --> 01:01:43,092 [zaza]: oh 1489 01:01:43,315 --> 01:01:50,827 [jonathan]: um um and i think that that could entail that we still distinguish people for 1490 01:01:51,108 --> 01:01:53,572 [jonathan]: accomplishments in arts in science 1491 01:01:54,270 --> 01:01:54,555 [zaza]: oh 1492 01:01:54,674 --> 01:01:59,702 [jonathan]: or even in the market place but i think we need to re think what 1493 01:01:59,742 --> 01:02:05,352 [jonathan]: the consequences of sort of winning and success look like so in the united 1494 01:02:05,344 --> 01:02:05,666 [zaza]: states 1495 01:02:05,412 --> 01:02:11,822 [jonathan]: states the reality has become that when you are a winner in the market you 1496 01:02:11,963 --> 01:02:12,504 [jonathan]: are also 1497 01:02:13,110 --> 01:02:13,311 [zaza]: oh 1498 01:02:14,347 --> 01:02:16,711 [jonathan]: more able to secure solid housing 1499 01:02:17,070 --> 01:02:17,434 [zaza]: oh 1500 01:02:18,333 --> 01:02:27,504 [jonathan]: get better opportunities for education for instance for your children have more better health and 1501 01:02:27,625 --> 01:02:33,575 [jonathan]: safety right but i think disconnecting and disentangling those things all together i think so 1502 01:02:33,635 --> 01:02:34,336 [jonathan]: very good starting 1503 01:02:34,089 --> 01:02:34,109 [zaza]: a 1504 01:02:34,396 --> 01:02:38,743 [jonathan]: point so that we can define a set of public goods that we want to 1505 01:02:38,823 --> 01:02:38,923 [jonathan]: be 1506 01:02:38,941 --> 01:02:39,001 [zaza]: he 1507 01:02:39,224 --> 01:02:40,246 [jonathan]: available to 1508 01:02:40,261 --> 01:02:40,322 [zaza]: we 1509 01:02:40,406 --> 01:02:40,787 [jonathan]: everyone 1510 01:02:41,430 --> 01:02:43,140 [zaza]: yeah 1511 01:02:41,548 --> 01:02:48,099 [jonathan]: and and we re couple those from whatever success and winning looks like without having 1512 01:02:48,199 --> 01:02:48,319 [jonathan]: to 1513 01:02:48,900 --> 01:02:49,207 [zaza]: oh 1514 01:02:49,782 --> 01:02:55,371 [jonathan]: kind of create some sort of weirdly uniform society where everybody is the same right 1515 01:02:55,972 --> 01:03:01,145 [jonathan]: i think we could have all sorts of competitions and all sorts of you know 1516 01:03:01,225 --> 01:03:02,227 [jonathan]: particular pursuits 1517 01:03:01,872 --> 01:03:02,262 [zaza]: sis 1518 01:03:03,268 --> 01:03:09,499 [jonathan]: as long as they don't translate into you know rooted and inherited technic qualities there's 1519 01:03:09,539 --> 01:03:12,464 [jonathan]: a lot to be done in terms of re thinking ownership 1520 01:03:12,214 --> 01:03:12,398 [zaza]: ship 1521 01:03:13,005 --> 01:03:15,869 [jonathan]: public ownership there's there's been interesting suggestions 1522 01:03:15,622 --> 01:03:15,725 [zaza]: she 1523 01:03:15,950 --> 01:03:16,210 [jonathan]: about 1524 01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:16,882 [zaza]: yeah 1525 01:03:17,692 --> 01:03:24,464 [jonathan]: basically giving people shares or or sort of coupons that give them an owner to 1526 01:03:24,544 --> 01:03:26,467 [jonathan]: stake ownership stake in 1527 01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:27,987 [zaza]: oh right 1528 01:03:27,970 --> 01:03:29,112 [jonathan]: in national 1529 01:03:28,741 --> 01:03:28,842 [zaza]: so 1530 01:03:29,492 --> 01:03:30,814 [jonathan]: or nationalized companies 1531 01:03:31,492 --> 01:03:31,593 [zaza]: eh 1532 01:03:32,117 --> 01:03:37,746 [jonathan]: but i think there's many forms i don't think there's one solution i think we 1533 01:03:37,846 --> 01:03:42,975 [jonathan]: can probably define a couple of sort of premises and from there 1534 01:03:42,734 --> 01:03:43,702 [zaza]: ah yeah 1535 01:03:43,936 --> 01:03:48,283 [jonathan]: work out what the most practical manifestation 1536 01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:48,060 [zaza]: ye 1537 01:03:48,364 --> 01:03:53,473 [jonathan]: of that would look like and i'd be very surprised if we wouldn't see different 1538 01:03:53,533 --> 01:03:59,905 [jonathan]: solutions in different contexts for different communities and that should be absolutely fine too coupled 1539 01:03:59,965 --> 01:04:05,334 [jonathan]: of course in my ideal world with the freedom to settle and locate wherever you 1540 01:04:05,474 --> 01:04:07,938 [jonathan]: want on the planet so that we don't 1541 01:04:08,010 --> 01:04:08,760 [zaza]: oh 1542 01:04:08,059 --> 01:04:16,252 [jonathan]: have borders keeping people out and you know protecting people's particular interest but we can 1543 01:04:16,332 --> 01:04:22,463 [jonathan]: have a real freedom to choose and and be and live wherever you are but 1544 01:04:22,623 --> 01:04:22,703 [jonathan]: but 1545 01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:22,801 [zaza]: ah 1546 01:04:22,723 --> 01:04:25,772 [jonathan]: yeah re thinking of what are public goods and a re thinking of what are 1547 01:04:25,832 --> 01:04:29,263 [jonathan]: private responsibilities i think that's the very first thing to do 1548 01:04:29,890 --> 01:04:31,350 [zaza]: yeah the name 1549 01:04:31,235 --> 01:04:32,285 [jonathan]: yeah 1550 01:04:31,410 --> 01:04:35,641 [zaza]: of this podcast is your trash which means i have to ask you something a 1551 01:04:35,661 --> 01:04:36,664 [zaza]: little bit more trashy 1552 01:04:36,275 --> 01:04:36,580 [jonathan]: oh 1553 01:04:36,904 --> 01:04:37,285 [zaza]: at the end 1554 01:04:37,505 --> 01:04:37,525 [jonathan]: m 1555 01:04:39,350 --> 01:04:42,555 [zaza]: you said that to break down in equality i believe you said that in your 1556 01:04:42,615 --> 01:04:48,385 [zaza]: tete stock which i recommend everybody to see and watch you said that to break 1557 01:04:48,445 --> 01:04:51,290 [zaza]: down in equality we have to think about personal choices in our 1558 01:04:51,245 --> 01:04:51,526 [jonathan]: oh 1559 01:04:51,410 --> 01:04:53,595 [zaza]: everyday lives as well right we need to try 1560 01:04:53,558 --> 01:04:53,699 [jonathan]: yeah 1561 01:04:53,695 --> 01:04:58,365 [zaza]: to escape the confines of our spaces and social networks and interact with people who 1562 01:04:58,426 --> 01:04:59,207 [zaza]: are different from us 1563 01:05:00,196 --> 01:05:00,357 [jonathan]: yeah 1564 01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:04,722 [zaza]: here comes the question if you are an all powerful producer for 1565 01:05:04,903 --> 01:05:05,105 [jonathan]: yeah 1566 01:05:05,343 --> 01:05:05,903 [zaza]: reality t 1567 01:05:05,945 --> 01:05:07,055 [jonathan]: yeah 1568 01:05:06,063 --> 01:05:10,468 [zaza]: v show what kinds of people would you put together and what would they have 1569 01:05:10,528 --> 01:05:11,069 [zaza]: to achieve 1570 01:05:14,137 --> 01:05:14,198 [jonathan]: so 1571 01:05:15,970 --> 01:05:16,330 [zaza]: would it be 1572 01:05:16,295 --> 01:05:16,556 [jonathan]: yeah 1573 01:05:16,370 --> 01:05:18,832 [zaza]: like a survivor type thing a big brother 1574 01:05:18,868 --> 01:05:19,049 [jonathan]: yeah 1575 01:05:18,972 --> 01:05:24,497 [zaza]: setting a romance show you know or something completely else and from which walks of 1576 01:05:24,577 --> 01:05:25,959 [zaza]: life would these participants 1577 01:05:25,665 --> 01:05:25,925 [jonathan]: yeah 1578 01:05:26,059 --> 01:05:26,419 [zaza]: come from 1579 01:05:26,466 --> 01:05:30,413 [jonathan]: i mean i think one of the problems currently that's propping up this idea of 1580 01:05:30,453 --> 01:05:35,461 [jonathan]: the american dream and meritocracy et cetera is is all those reality shows that have 1581 01:05:35,411 --> 01:05:35,572 [zaza]: ah 1582 01:05:35,501 --> 01:05:36,002 [jonathan]: a competitive 1583 01:05:35,913 --> 01:05:36,034 [zaza]: that 1584 01:05:36,082 --> 01:05:36,383 [jonathan]: element 1585 01:05:36,094 --> 01:05:36,736 [zaza]: i love to watch 1586 01:05:36,583 --> 01:05:36,803 [jonathan]: in it 1587 01:05:36,817 --> 01:05:37,178 [zaza]: by the way 1588 01:05:38,235 --> 01:05:41,120 [jonathan]: yeah i mean i don't hate them either i watched a lot of trash t 1589 01:05:41,300 --> 01:05:41,320 [jonathan]: v 1590 01:05:41,784 --> 01:05:42,210 [zaza]: yeah same 1591 01:05:42,181 --> 01:05:43,203 [jonathan]: here like 1592 01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:43,680 [zaza]: oh 1593 01:05:43,363 --> 01:05:48,231 [jonathan]: here on netflixs what is it selling sunset about a bunch of bim ball real 1594 01:05:48,292 --> 01:05:49,974 [jonathan]: estate agents 1595 01:05:50,352 --> 01:05:50,573 [zaza]: okay 1596 01:05:50,637 --> 01:05:50,858 [jonathan]: um 1597 01:05:51,013 --> 01:05:51,214 [zaza]: that's 1598 01:05:51,300 --> 01:05:51,641 [jonathan]: lovely 1599 01:05:51,434 --> 01:05:53,658 [zaza]: that okay i'll definitely watch 1600 01:05:53,605 --> 01:05:53,725 [jonathan]: check 1601 01:05:53,718 --> 01:05:53,858 [zaza]: that 1602 01:05:53,806 --> 01:05:54,066 [jonathan]: it out 1603 01:05:53,958 --> 01:05:54,038 [zaza]: one 1604 01:05:54,468 --> 01:05:55,551 [jonathan]: yeah very american 1605 01:05:55,140 --> 01:05:55,441 [zaza]: i've been 1606 01:05:55,631 --> 01:05:55,832 [jonathan]: though 1607 01:05:55,721 --> 01:05:57,504 [zaza]: i've been watching love is blind recently 1608 01:05:58,535 --> 01:05:58,595 [jonathan]: oh 1609 01:05:58,606 --> 01:05:58,706 [zaza]: but 1610 01:05:58,656 --> 01:05:59,158 [jonathan]: yeah yeah 1611 01:05:59,047 --> 01:05:59,307 [zaza]: but that 1612 01:05:59,198 --> 01:05:59,460 [jonathan]: that was 1613 01:05:59,447 --> 01:06:00,669 [zaza]: that that one seems even better 1614 01:06:01,895 --> 01:06:05,241 [jonathan]: the love in blindness interesting to cultural differences right there has been love and blind 1615 01:06:05,661 --> 01:06:05,762 [jonathan]: love 1616 01:06:05,667 --> 01:06:05,991 [zaza]: japan 1617 01:06:05,822 --> 01:06:07,605 [jonathan]: is blind now in so many countries 1618 01:06:07,724 --> 01:06:07,845 [zaza]: yeah 1619 01:06:07,905 --> 01:06:11,631 [jonathan]: yea the japanese and the american it's really stark just how different 1620 01:06:11,462 --> 01:06:12,005 [zaza]: absolutely 1621 01:06:11,651 --> 01:06:12,052 [jonathan]: they are 1622 01:06:12,145 --> 01:06:13,110 [zaza]: yeah 1623 01:06:13,134 --> 01:06:16,920 [jonathan]: where things fall apart and how people present and how they 1624 01:06:17,314 --> 01:06:17,396 [zaza]: ah 1625 01:06:17,802 --> 01:06:22,910 [jonathan]: engage with utter it's very very very interesting i mean i think there's something really 1626 01:06:22,970 --> 01:06:26,997 [jonathan]: beautiful about the premise of love is blind and i think there's a lot of 1627 01:06:27,057 --> 01:06:29,301 [jonathan]: potential and indeed bringing 1628 01:06:29,070 --> 01:06:29,353 [zaza]: oh 1629 01:06:29,341 --> 01:06:31,945 [jonathan]: people together that otherwise wouldn't meet so 1630 01:06:32,204 --> 01:06:32,325 [zaza]: yeah 1631 01:06:32,246 --> 01:06:34,730 [jonathan]: yeah i guess might go to be romance 1632 01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:37,800 [zaza]: oh 1633 01:06:35,111 --> 01:06:39,318 [jonathan]: as as the real life or you know sort of show 1634 01:06:39,172 --> 01:06:39,294 [zaza]: oh 1635 01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:46,109 [jonathan]: of choice i mean i just don't see competitive shows to do any good in 1636 01:06:46,149 --> 01:06:48,794 [jonathan]: the world really other than perhaps provide entertainment 1637 01:06:49,793 --> 01:06:52,458 [zaza]: thank you so much this was incredibly illuminating 1638 01:06:52,625 --> 01:06:52,645 [jonathan]: m 1639 01:06:52,919 --> 01:06:56,507 [zaza]: thank you for taking the time what's the easiest way for people to discover your 1640 01:06:56,928 --> 01:06:57,248 [zaza]: your work 1641 01:06:58,175 --> 01:06:58,476 [jonathan]: oh yeah 1642 01:06:58,371 --> 01:06:58,613 [zaza]: yes 1643 01:06:58,556 --> 01:07:01,381 [jonathan]: so i try to put it all together on my website so if you go 1644 01:07:01,481 --> 01:07:08,372 [jonathan]: to jonathan mice dot com you'll find it all there including like interviews and podcasts 1645 01:07:08,453 --> 01:07:12,119 [jonathan]: like that this where where i feature but otherwise 1646 01:07:11,769 --> 01:07:11,790 [zaza]: m 1647 01:07:12,179 --> 01:07:14,643 [jonathan]: yeh feel free to get in touch my emails is 1648 01:07:14,578 --> 01:07:14,760 [zaza]: yes 1649 01:07:14,763 --> 01:07:18,289 [jonathan]: on there i'm always happy to engage with people are interested in these kind of 1650 01:07:18,349 --> 01:07:22,479 [jonathan]: topics so yeah and it's been a pleasure to be on to be on your 1651 01:07:22,540 --> 01:07:22,661 [jonathan]: show 1652 01:07:23,924 --> 01:07:28,017 [zaza]: again thank you so much accepting the invite and all the best to io of 1653 01:07:28,097 --> 01:07:28,278 [zaza]: course 1654 01:07:28,355 --> 01:07:32,210 [jonathan]: m thank you that's that what that's what matters most 1655 01:07:32,250 --> 01:07:32,492 [zaza]: yeah 1656 01:07:32,250 --> 01:07:33,292 [jonathan]: dearly to me these days 1657 01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:37,230 [zaza]: oh m 1658 01:07:37,985 --> 01:07:38,005 [jonathan]: m