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#52 Meta Prime: Rebuilding The Social Structure in America · Going Direct Conversations

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Today,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm sitting down with Meta Prime,
0:01
SPEAKER_00: a writer and online network builder I originally came across in Substack.
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SPEAKER_00: Now,
0:05
Meta is my first online personality that I'm having a
0:08
conversation with at Going
0:08
SPEAKER_00: Direct,
0:09
but the reason why is he penned an essay a few months back
0:11
called The Necessity of
0:12
SPEAKER_00: Rebuilding the Social Structure in America.
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SPEAKER_00: And he hit really at the core reason why I started going direct.
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SPEAKER_01: Social structure,
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SPEAKER_01: it's a group of people who understand they have a mutual shared interest,
0:24
SPEAKER_01: right?
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SPEAKER_01: They live in close proximity.
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SPEAKER_01: That's why local communities are such a good example of this.
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SPEAKER_00: If we want to rebuild our social structure in America,
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it all starts with decentralizing the real economy and becoming
0:34
more connected to
0:35
SPEAKER_00: the products that we buy through people we make them.
0:37
SPEAKER_01: We've had a lot of people who were
0:39
kind of chasing economic success and wasn't consciously
0:44
understood by the people
0:45
making that decision is sure you're you're you're getting this
0:48
economic advantage
0:49
but you're trading at the cost of you're leaving your community
0:53
right you're you're
0:54
kind of ripping apart the social structure i hope you enjoy the
0:57
conversation we dig
0:58
into his essay and his broader work with the meta prime project
1:01
and we also discuss
1:02
SPEAKER_00: how it relates to going to rest
1:10
SPEAKER_00: Hey, my friends, Jordan here.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: Just a few words before we hop into today's episode.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: First and foremost,
1:15
SPEAKER_00: a sincere thank you and appreciation for all of our early listeners,
1:19
SPEAKER_00: readers and supporters at Going Direct.
1:21
It's really what keeps me going to do this each and every week
1:24
because there's
1:24
clearly a community of folks out there looking to build a Going
1:27
Direct economy,
1:28
SPEAKER_00: which gets me super excited.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: Secondly, if you haven't subscribed, please do so.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: Our main channel and community is forming over on Substack.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: The link is in the show notes below.
1:38
And we'll also be putting out our weekly conversations at
1:40
YouTube,
1:41
Spotify,
1:42
and Apple Podcasts.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: I hope you all have a great day and remember to go direct.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: All right.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: We are here with Meta Prime.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: How are you doing today, my man?
1:52
SPEAKER_01: I'm doing great.
1:53
SPEAKER_01: How about yourself?
1:55
SPEAKER_00: Good, thanks.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: Well, we're recording.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: It's January 8th,
1:59
SPEAKER_00: just after the new year,
2:00
SPEAKER_00: and this is my first conversation with an online personality.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: We're going to get into that whole aspect today,
2:11
SPEAKER_00: but I want to start here just to frame everything up for the audience,
2:16
SPEAKER_00: which is,
2:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
2:18
SPEAKER_00: I've been following your writing for a while,
2:20
SPEAKER_00: and...
2:24
SPEAKER_00: You know,
2:25
the whole kind of premise behind going direct and why I felt
2:28
compelled to do this
2:31
was the whole idea of we need to build a more decentralized
2:35
real economy and we
2:37
need to start making the products closer to where they're
2:42
actually being consumed
2:43
SPEAKER_00: so we know who makes them,
2:44
SPEAKER_00: where they come from,
2:45
SPEAKER_00: et cetera,
2:45
SPEAKER_00: et cetera.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: And as someone coming from Detroit, I've always...
2:51
I always thought that's like a big part of community and social
2:54
structures.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: And the only way we can,
2:59
SPEAKER_00: I think a big reason why we've lost a lot of this,
3:03
our social structure is because we have all these middlemen and
3:06
we have a highly
3:06
SPEAKER_00: financialized economic system that stands in between.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: And I think when you wrote your piece,
3:14
which is a big piece of what we're going to discuss today about
3:16
the necessity for
3:17
SPEAKER_00: rebuilding social structure.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, by the way.
3:22
it,
3:23
it just ignited me at this core,
3:25
core,
3:25
very visceral reason of why I'm doing going direct.
3:27
Most people would look at it through the lens of like
3:29
entrepreneurship and
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SPEAKER_00: investing,
3:31
SPEAKER_00: but it's actually about the social structure piece.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: So, so thank you for that.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: I think that really it's about kind of bring shifting people's attention,
3:40
SPEAKER_01: you know,
3:41
SPEAKER_01: away from kind of this hyper economized,
3:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
3:45
SPEAKER_01: very transactional,
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way that they relate to the world and helping them realize
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there is this whole way
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of exchange that's through social capital is through connection
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that's through
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SPEAKER_01: network to move people away from hyper individualism towards kind of an
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appreciation for group structure correct you know collaboration
4:03
all the things that
4:04
you know can be achieved there so it is always really exciting
4:08
to connect with
4:09
other people who are kind of on that wavelength because i think
4:11
a lot of us are
4:12
SPEAKER_01: coming to
4:13
very similar conclusions,
4:14
maybe from slightly different angles,
4:16
slightly different language.
4:18
And it was always really exciting when you put something out
4:21
there and other people
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SPEAKER_01: like see the value in that and they get excited about it.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: And,
4:25
SPEAKER_01: you know,
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I think we're definitely at a pivotal turning point where you
4:29
have a lot of the
4:30
SPEAKER_01: people who are appreciating this kind of social network,
4:34
SPEAKER_01: social cohesion connection.
4:37
And they're all coming together and starting to kind of find
4:39
each other and find
4:40
opportunities to synergize and work together and really build
4:42
this thing that we're
4:43
SPEAKER_01: all kind of envisioning.
4:47
SPEAKER_00: No, totally agree.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a good segue.
4:51
I just want to read a part of the passage of your essay because
4:54
I think it's a good
4:55
SPEAKER_00: jumping off point.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: Is that cool?
4:58
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
4:59
So this is a little bit lengthy,
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but I think it's really important for the audience to hear it.
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SPEAKER_00: So this is directly from Meta's recent piece.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: While the plethora of problems besetting our modern world is fairly well
5:12
SPEAKER_00: understood,
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SPEAKER_00: there is little discussion of the source of these problems,
5:17
SPEAKER_00: let alone actionable solutions for solving them.
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SPEAKER_00: There are many who would point to corrupt politicians,
5:24
SPEAKER_00: greedy merchants,
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SPEAKER_00: or self-obsessed social activists,
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but the simple fact that people like this are allowed to
5:30
operate is cause for
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SPEAKER_00: reflection.
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How did society become so weak that evil like this has been
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allowed to thrive?
5:37
The answer can be found in the breakdown of the American social
5:40
structure.
5:41
We have effectively become little more than individual
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consumers floating through a
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world of economic convenience with little connection to our
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neighbors and sometimes
5:49
SPEAKER_00: even to our immediate family.
5:52
If we want to have any hope of building a better future for
5:54
ourselves and future
5:55
SPEAKER_00: generations of Americans,
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it is essential that we rebuild the social structure necessary
6:00
to work cohesively.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: Can you just talk a little bit about like,
6:07
when did this all kind of click for you and that gave you this
6:10
inspiration to write
6:11
SPEAKER_00: this piece?
6:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:14
SPEAKER_01: So I've been writing since for,
6:17
SPEAKER_01: for the meta prime project for,
6:20
SPEAKER_01: uh,
6:20
SPEAKER_01: since about like late 2021 and,
6:23
It's very interesting because every time I write and I kind of
6:27
go a little bit back
6:28
SPEAKER_01: to what got me interested,
6:30
SPEAKER_01: what were the initial things that I was working on,
6:33
SPEAKER_01: there's these running themes.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: And again, they've evolved over time.
6:38
SPEAKER_01: So initially,
6:40
SPEAKER_01: what got me writing was,
6:41
SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of us,
6:43
SPEAKER_01: we look at the modern world,
6:45
SPEAKER_01: we see all of these problems,
6:46
SPEAKER_01: we get frustrated by it.
6:48
SPEAKER_01: We're looking for solutions or a way of understanding.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: And it's very easy to get hyper fixated on,
6:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
6:55
SPEAKER_01: here's all the reasons these things are wrong and you know,
6:59
SPEAKER_01: why they're bad and,
7:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
7:01
SPEAKER_01: trying to find some kind of transcendent truth,
7:03
SPEAKER_01: or maybe it'll all click,
7:04
SPEAKER_01: or we get hyper focused on kind of the,
7:07
SPEAKER_01: the big picture kind of conspiracy stuff.
7:09
SPEAKER_01: And it's a lot of this is, it's not only a distraction,
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But even if you knew what the truth was or how things have
7:19
really gotten this bad,
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SPEAKER_01: the question is,
7:21
SPEAKER_01: what do you actually do about it?
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SPEAKER_01: What is the solution?
7:24
Getting past being mad at the situation and while articulating
7:30
the problem is a
7:31
SPEAKER_01: necessary part of fixing it,
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SPEAKER_01: if you don't move on to the fixing it phase,
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SPEAKER_01: if you're kind of perennially stuck in this kind of frustration,
7:40
SPEAKER_01: as justified as it might be,
7:41
SPEAKER_01: nothing is going to get done.
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And so a lot of my early writing was encouraging people to say,
7:48
Hey,
7:50
here's a path.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: Here's a productive path for what you can do.
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And I think the thing that's usually difficult and kind of
7:56
keeps people from just
7:57
SPEAKER_01: kind of this obvious path of like work on yourself,
7:59
SPEAKER_01: improve,
8:01
SPEAKER_01: get stronger,
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SPEAKER_01: but also,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: reach out network and then build these,
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SPEAKER_01: what I call like parallel systems or like parallel movement,
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SPEAKER_01: kind of the creation of alternative systems that,
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SPEAKER_01: you
8:12
SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: give you more independence,
8:14
SPEAKER_01: give you more bargaining power,
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give you this ability to kind of do your own thing and not be
8:20
as reliant on the
8:20
SPEAKER_01: system because the system will incentivize you to act certain ways.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: You have to be economically locked in.
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But the thing that keeps people from that is a lot of the work
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to do that is very unglamorous.
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SPEAKER_01: It's very,
8:32
SPEAKER_01: you know,
8:32
SPEAKER_01: it's local,
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SPEAKER_01: it's small,
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SPEAKER_01: it's,
8:34
SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: the people immediately around you or the people online.
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And a lot of people,
8:38
when they get online,
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they kind of get stuck into these very like
8:42
SPEAKER_01: grandiose big plan or you,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
8:44
SPEAKER_01: it's gotta,
8:44
SPEAKER_01: you gotta be part of some giant movement or,
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and it can also be very parasocial in the sense that like
8:50
people kind of feed off
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SPEAKER_01: these,
8:52
SPEAKER_01: these like LARPs,
8:53
SPEAKER_01: these power fantasies,
8:54
SPEAKER_01: these like,
8:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
8:55
ideas of they're part of like some great thing that's gonna
8:58
like completely unend,
8:59
SPEAKER_01: upend everything.
9:00
SPEAKER_01: Right.
9:01
And,
9:01
and the real answer in my mind is,
9:04
you know,
9:04
you have to start local.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: You have to, what is actionable?
9:08
SPEAKER_01: What is practical?
9:10
SPEAKER_01: And kind of accepting that, you know, it's going to take time.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: It's going to take effort.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: It's not going to be immediate.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: It's not going to be easy.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: It's not going to be,
9:19
SPEAKER_01: you know,
9:19
SPEAKER_01: glamorous in the same way that like,
9:21
SPEAKER_01: you know,
9:21
SPEAKER_01: posting bangers online or whatever is,
9:23
SPEAKER_01: is like,
9:24
SPEAKER_01: can be kind of like a dopamine rush.
9:28
SPEAKER_01: So this article specifically on,
9:30
SPEAKER_01: on the necessity of social structure,
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SPEAKER_01: I've been networking,
9:34
SPEAKER_01: you know,
9:35
SPEAKER_01: in the space for a long time,
9:36
SPEAKER_01: trying to find other people who are on this wavelength.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: Cause I believe that
9:40
the best way to go about this is to find the people who already
9:43
kind of get this,
9:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
9:45
SPEAKER_01: whether they think about it,
9:46
SPEAKER_01: however they think about it,
9:47
SPEAKER_01: they're trying to create alternatives.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: And by virtue of the fact that they are,
9:51
SPEAKER_01: you know,
9:52
SPEAKER_01: doing actionable,
9:53
SPEAKER_01: positive,
9:54
SPEAKER_01: creative things,
9:55
SPEAKER_01: they're kind of self-selecting for,
9:57
SPEAKER_01: you know,
9:58
SPEAKER_01: fairly high quality of person.
9:59
And so if you can bring those people together and not focus so
10:02
much on doing things
10:04
as much as it is just connecting people and building good trust
10:06
and cohesion,
10:08
SPEAKER_01: there's a lot of good stuff that could come from that.
10:10
SPEAKER_01: And in that experience,
10:11
I kept running into these different problems where I would see
10:14
other people try to
10:14
SPEAKER_01: build stuff.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: And I'd say like,
10:17
SPEAKER_01: oh,
10:17
SPEAKER_01: okay,
10:17
SPEAKER_01: you're trying to build too fast,
10:18
SPEAKER_01: or you're focusing too much on achievement versus like group cohesion.
10:23
SPEAKER_01: And I'd gone to an event out,
10:26
SPEAKER_01: you know,
10:26
SPEAKER_01: in my neck of the woods out in the Pacific Northwest,
10:29
SPEAKER_01: you know,
10:29
SPEAKER_01: Northern Idaho,
10:30
SPEAKER_01: Cascadia region.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: And we'd done a camping trip with a bunch of guys and
10:37
bunch of guys who I like,
10:38
I respect,
10:39
you know,
10:39
they're doing some good stuff too.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: They're building,
10:41
SPEAKER_01: you know,
10:41
SPEAKER_01: community groups and,
10:43
SPEAKER_01: and we were kind of talking through all of these problems and,
10:47
SPEAKER_01: you know,
10:48
SPEAKER_01: and so for me,
10:49
this article was not an attempt to kind of codify a lot of that
10:52
learning because a
10:54
SPEAKER_01: lot of how I see my writing is trying to write for like my younger self,
10:59
SPEAKER_01: right?
10:59
Like things that I wish I knew that,
11:02
you know,
11:02
hopefully have value,
11:04
you know,
11:04
like
11:05
I feel like they have value to me now and hopefully they'll
11:07
have value to other
11:08
SPEAKER_01: people who are on that path.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: So that was the real impetus.
11:12
SPEAKER_01: It was like a lot of people get stuck on the problems.
11:16
SPEAKER_01: They're not really focusing on the solutions.
11:18
In my mind,
11:18
the solution is networking,
11:21
building these relationships,
11:22
doing those things.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: But
11:24
SPEAKER_01: we're in a very unique time,
11:25
SPEAKER_01: regardless of the fact that like maybe building relationships,
11:28
SPEAKER_01: isn't like a new thing,
11:30
SPEAKER_01: building relationships from a place where,
11:32
SPEAKER_01: you know,
11:32
SPEAKER_01: the country is so atomized,
11:34
SPEAKER_01: people don't have these connections,
11:36
SPEAKER_01: but also like,
11:37
SPEAKER_01: how do you do that?
11:38
SPEAKER_01: Where we have the rise of digital media.
11:40
And so there's,
11:42
there's a lot of nuance to the situation situation that we're
11:44
in now.
11:46
SPEAKER_01: And so,
11:47
the article in large part is an attempt to codify some like
11:51
best practices,
11:52
SPEAKER_01: some,
11:52
some awareness of these issues with the hope that other people
11:56
can read that.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: And even if they're not,
11:58
SPEAKER_01: you know,
11:59
networking with me or getting involved in the meta network and
12:01
what we're trying to
12:02
SPEAKER_01: do,
12:03
SPEAKER_01: they're able to more effectively build whatever they're trying to build.
12:06
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's just a broad win.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: The more people we have doing that.
12:10
SPEAKER_01: So,
12:11
Can you just explain when you say social structure,
12:15
what is the social structure?
12:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:19
SPEAKER_01: So this is like an interesting thing, right?
12:22
Because one of the ways that I think about social structure is
12:26
that it's kind of
12:28
SPEAKER_01: like an ecosystem in the sense that,
12:32
SPEAKER_01: um,
12:32
there's all of these invisible ways in which healthy social
12:36
structure helps balance
12:38
SPEAKER_01: things or incentivize,
12:39
SPEAKER_01: you know,
12:40
SPEAKER_01: behavior that we want to see that isn't immediately obvious.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: So for example,
12:46
SPEAKER_01: like dating,
12:47
SPEAKER_01: you know,
12:48
SPEAKER_01: if you had a small town where,
12:51
SPEAKER_01: you know,
12:51
SPEAKER_01: families have been for a long time and,
12:54
SPEAKER_01: you know,
12:55
SPEAKER_01: two people meet pretty common that,
12:59
SPEAKER_01: you know,
12:59
SPEAKER_01: they're,
13:02
SPEAKER_01: families are going to know each other or,
13:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
13:04
SPEAKER_01: their friends,
13:04
SPEAKER_01: they're going to have friends in common.
13:06
And if it's a good match,
13:09
those families,
13:10
those friends are going to encourage that,
13:11
right.
13:11
SPEAKER_01: They're going to support that.
13:13
But also once they start dating,
13:15
right,
13:15
everyone kind of picks up on this,
13:17
they know.
13:18
And so now,
13:19
you know,
13:20
no,
13:20
no one's trying to approach them because they're like a couple.
13:23
SPEAKER_01: Right.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: And then if they get into a fight,
13:26
SPEAKER_01: you know,
13:26
SPEAKER_01: and say the girl goes off and she goes and talk to her family or friends,
13:31
SPEAKER_01: modern day,
13:31
SPEAKER_01: it's very common for,
13:33
SPEAKER_01: you know,
13:33
SPEAKER_01: the friends don't know the family don't know the guy.
13:35
And so they're going to say,
13:36
Oh,
13:36
you know,
13:37
they're going to immediately take her side.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: They're going to,
13:39
SPEAKER_01: you know,
13:40
SPEAKER_01: comfort her and tell her like,
13:42
SPEAKER_01: Oh,
13:42
SPEAKER_01: you know,
13:42
SPEAKER_01: he's probably a horrible,
13:43
SPEAKER_01: you know,
13:44
SPEAKER_01: whereas if they know all know each other,
13:46
SPEAKER_01: they have an incentive to kind of encourage,
13:49
SPEAKER_01: you know,
13:50
SPEAKER_01: the reconciliation and keeping the relationship together.
13:53
And they probably can kind of like help navigate that a little
13:55
bit better.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: And so when I think of healthy social structure,
14:01
what I'm thinking about is it's a group of people who
14:05
understand they have a mutual
14:08
SPEAKER_01: shared interest.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: They live in close proximity.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: That's why local communities are such a good example of this.
14:14
And part of the reason everything's fallen apart as much as it
14:17
has is because we
14:19
SPEAKER_01: just don't have the same consistency of living in the same spot.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: you know,
14:25
SPEAKER_01: uh,
14:25
SPEAKER_01: talk a little bit about this in the article,
14:27
but you had a lot of people who were kind of chasing economic
14:31
success because they
14:33
SPEAKER_01: knew that,
14:33
SPEAKER_01: Hey,
14:34
SPEAKER_01: I can go to college in another area.
14:36
SPEAKER_01: I can get a job in the city and I'm going to be making,
14:39
SPEAKER_01: you know,
14:39
SPEAKER_01: two or three times what I would,
14:41
SPEAKER_01: you know,
14:41
SPEAKER_01: in this,
14:42
SPEAKER_01: in the town,
14:42
SPEAKER_01: right.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: Or,
14:43
SPEAKER_01: you know,
14:44
SPEAKER_01: have access to all these cool things like,
14:46
SPEAKER_01: you know,
14:47
SPEAKER_01: food and entertainment and adventure.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: And, um,
14:51
SPEAKER_01: What wasn't consciously understood by the people making that decision is,
14:55
SPEAKER_01: sure,
14:56
SPEAKER_01: you're getting this economic advantage,
14:58
SPEAKER_01: but you're trading at the cost of you're leaving your community,
15:02
SPEAKER_01: right?
15:03
You're kind of ripping apart the social structure that exists
15:06
in these small communities.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: And again, it's not a conscious thing.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: It's not an active thing.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: It's not so much even a visible thing.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: But,
15:15
SPEAKER_01: you know,
15:15
now we're kind of experiencing a lot of the downstream effects
15:19
of this broken down
15:20
SPEAKER_01: social structure.
15:21
We look at like dating or we look at like how the boomers act
15:24
even is something I
15:26
SPEAKER_01: would kind of attribute to bad social structure because,
15:31
SPEAKER_01: you know,
15:31
they have all of these economic alternatives for like hospice
15:34
care and all of these
15:35
SPEAKER_01: other things where they can,
15:36
SPEAKER_01: they don't need their family.
15:37
SPEAKER_01: They don't need those connections.
15:38
SPEAKER_01: So they have no incentive to invest and
15:40
Whereas if the social structure was healthy and what we
15:43
primarily relied on,
15:45
SPEAKER_01: you know,
15:46
SPEAKER_01: the older generations would say,
15:47
SPEAKER_01: Hey,
15:47
SPEAKER_01: look,
15:47
SPEAKER_01: like my family's going to take care of me at my old age.
15:50
I have a strong incentive to make sure that they're taken care
15:53
of,
15:53
that they have a good life.
15:54
They're financially successful,
15:56
but also I'm passing on not just my knowledge.
15:59
SPEAKER_01: This is another thing.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: It's like,
16:01
you look at a lot of the businesses today that get bought up by
16:04
VCs,
16:04
right?
16:04
The HVAC companies or the,
16:06
you know,
16:06
the mechanic shops,
16:07
what are they really buying?
16:08
SPEAKER_01: They're not necessarily buying like,
16:10
SPEAKER_01: you know,
16:10
SPEAKER_01: maybe the,
16:11
SPEAKER_01: you know,
16:11
SPEAKER_01: the place and they're blind,
16:13
SPEAKER_01: they're buying the connection,
16:14
SPEAKER_01: they're buying the Rolodex,
16:15
SPEAKER_01: they're buying the reputation.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: And so all families to some degree have this, right?
16:19
SPEAKER_01: If you lived in a small town,
16:21
SPEAKER_01: Your parents inevitably have friends,
16:23
SPEAKER_01: they have connections,
16:24
SPEAKER_01: they've got all that kind of stuff.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: Like when you leave,
16:27
SPEAKER_01: you're forfeiting all of that social connection,
16:31
SPEAKER_01: that social capital that was built up.
16:33
And I think that's a large part of what happened is we didn't
16:36
appreciate or understand.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: what this social cohesion was, you know, the advantage that it gave us.
16:43
And because we've just been pursuing economic advancement and
16:47
we live in a world
16:48
SPEAKER_01: that's so economically transactional,
16:50
SPEAKER_01: right?
16:51
SPEAKER_01: Everything therapy,
16:53
SPEAKER_01: romance,
16:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
16:55
SPEAKER_01: obvious things like food and shelter and whatnot,
16:57
SPEAKER_01: they're,
16:57
SPEAKER_01: they're all economic exchange.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: Whereas,
17:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
17:01
SPEAKER_01: the more that we can kind of,
17:03
SPEAKER_01: the more than once,
17:04
SPEAKER_01: when,
17:04
SPEAKER_01: when those were social exchanges,
17:07
there are all these other kind of invisible benefiting kind of
17:11
balancing elements
17:12
SPEAKER_01: that naturally incentivized good behavior or long-term valuable behavior.
17:17
SPEAKER_01: And so we're kind of losing that.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: So when I think of social structure,
17:20
I think of like shared cohesion around this common mutually
17:26
beneficial goal and
17:27
kind of this alternative way of like getting things that's much
17:30
more natural,
17:32
SPEAKER_01: much more healthy.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
17:33
SPEAKER_01: So hopefully that answers the kind of the question you were getting at.
17:36
no it does it hits the core part of where you make the point in
17:40
the article about
17:40
replacing natural social structures with economic alternatives
17:44
and i think you hit
17:45
it directly and man i have so much to discuss here because i
17:47
think there's like
17:48
this is heavy right what you're just what you're talking about
17:50
is like a really
17:51
SPEAKER_00: heavy thing
17:53
SPEAKER_00: And it's also like uniquely American, right?
17:56
SPEAKER_00: Where it's like our generation, I remember very specifically, right?
18:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm from Detroit.
18:02
SPEAKER_00: So it's like,
18:03
SPEAKER_00: no one,
18:04
no one even thought generally of like staying home in Detroit
18:08
at the time of when I
18:09
SPEAKER_00: was graduating college in 2005,
18:14
SPEAKER_00: 2006,
18:14
SPEAKER_00: right?
18:14
SPEAKER_00: It was like, there was no opportunity.
18:16
Detroit had a major problem,
18:17
which we'll talk about in a minute with the brain drain.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: and crime and just like a long series of,
18:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
18:24
SPEAKER_00: in the D D industrialization,
18:26
SPEAKER_00: like I can go on and on,
18:28
SPEAKER_00: but you know,
18:30
SPEAKER_00: we were,
18:31
SPEAKER_00: you know,
18:31
SPEAKER_00: we were raised where it was like,
18:32
SPEAKER_00: you know,
18:33
SPEAKER_00: the minute you can get out of there,
18:35
SPEAKER_00: get out of there and go to the coasts,
18:38
SPEAKER_00: go to Chicago,
18:39
SPEAKER_00: go to where the jobs were.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: Right.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: And then the talent at that time was going into,
18:44
the talent generally was going into banking and consulting and
18:50
where these high
18:51
SPEAKER_00: profile,
18:52
SPEAKER_00: highly financialized jobs were,
18:55
SPEAKER_00: and I was one of them.
18:59
And it was so interesting because I had this very formative
19:02
experience where both
19:04
SPEAKER_00: my parents were sick.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: A couple years after school I was working in San Francisco,
19:08
SPEAKER_00: I made the decision to go home to Detroit.
19:10
And I decided to stay and I got really involved in the
19:13
community and started a
19:15
couple of nonprofits to help bring back kind of local
19:17
entrepreneurial activity into
19:19
SPEAKER_00: the city of Detroit.
19:20
I spent a decade of my life dedicated to this and then I ended
19:25
up starting,
19:26
SPEAKER_00: I started buying commercial real estate and developing real estate.
19:30
SPEAKER_00: and very specific parts of Detroit to in the whole kind of thesis was,
19:34
SPEAKER_00: can we move back towards a production oriented economy?
19:36
So we were building a lot of kind of light industrial workspace
19:38
for companies
19:39
SPEAKER_00: making and designing products and stuff like that.
19:41
SPEAKER_00: And so I got this like very,
19:44
I made a very concrete decision in my life where I needed to go
19:49
take some care of
19:50
SPEAKER_00: things at home.
19:50
SPEAKER_00: And then I decided to make a unique,
19:52
like to take a situation that most would look at is like not a
19:55
positive situation
19:56
SPEAKER_00: into a positive one.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: And I was really involved with the resurgence of downtown Detroit.
20:02
And I think that was a really big formative experience and why
20:05
this article that
20:07
SPEAKER_00: you wrote hit me so hard and why this is the core of my work,
20:11
SPEAKER_00: which is I saw that,
20:13
but I also made this conscious decision to go back into my
20:15
social structure.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: to go do something about it.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: And I was lucky.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: I was lucky that there was an economic opportunity aligned with that,
20:25
which ultimately led to a very fortunate outcome for me from an
20:29
investment
20:29
SPEAKER_00: standpoint.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: But I think my next question on that though is,
20:37
SPEAKER_00: how do we,
20:38
SPEAKER_00: in your mind,
20:38
SPEAKER_00: you go back to what can we do to start reversing that?
20:41
Because at the end of the day,
20:42
people are gonna go to where the economic opportunity is.
20:44
SPEAKER_00: That is what America is about.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: So how do you have it?
20:49
SPEAKER_00: Give us like a,
20:50
SPEAKER_00: is there one little area or thing like we need to,
20:52
SPEAKER_00: even with that being the reality of the game on the field,
20:56
SPEAKER_00: what is something that we can do or we can be mindful of?
20:58
Cause we're still going to go find economic opportunity for
21:01
ourself before
21:02
SPEAKER_00: sacrificing that just for family.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: Most people will.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: No, and I absolutely agree, right?
21:08
SPEAKER_01: Like this is the challenging thing is I'll tell people like,
21:11
SPEAKER_01: hey,
21:11
SPEAKER_01: you know,
21:12
this is a time where we can be cultivating social capital as
21:16
opposed to economic
21:17
SPEAKER_01: capital,
21:18
SPEAKER_01: right?
21:18
SPEAKER_01: Because we're immersed in this economic capital system.
21:20
SPEAKER_01: And people say, well, you still have to make money.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, yes, yes.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm not trying to say like,
21:25
SPEAKER_01: you know,
21:26
SPEAKER_01: just,
21:26
SPEAKER_01: you know,
21:26
SPEAKER_01: be a friends and favor based economy or something like that.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: But this question of how do you bridge the gap?
21:34
How do you start something that is cultivating these more
21:40
localized community
21:42
SPEAKER_01: social fabric rebuilding initiatives?
21:45
SPEAKER_01: And I think a big part of this is that what rebuilding social fabric is,
21:52
SPEAKER_01: in essence,
21:53
SPEAKER_01: is an understanding and appreciation for the value of
21:58
strong social fabric as something that can solve these kind of
22:02
long-term problems.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: Right.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: But it takes a lot of,
22:06
SPEAKER_01: especially from the point that we're in now,
22:07
SPEAKER_01: it's going to take a lot of investment.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: and time and care, and you're going to run into your normal problems.
22:13
You're going to have people who might seem motivated or
22:17
interested when they're
22:19
SPEAKER_01: talking about it in the digital realm,
22:22
SPEAKER_01: or they might get on board because it's a cool thing to be a part of.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: But then when rubber meets the road, are they actually going to show up?
22:28
SPEAKER_01: Are they going to work?
22:28
SPEAKER_01: Are they going to do things?
22:30
SPEAKER_01: That's one of the things I talk about in the articles.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: It's constant problems like failure to launch, perennial discussion,
22:39
SPEAKER_01: on, you know, online, terminally online stuff.
22:42
And so what I found kind of like directly address your question
22:45
is what you're
22:46
SPEAKER_01: looking for is people who already get it,
22:49
SPEAKER_01: right?
22:50
SPEAKER_01: Because you have to have the long-term vision.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: The way I see it is if you're in the current system,
22:55
SPEAKER_01: it's very easy to get that immediate gratification,
22:57
SPEAKER_01: right?
22:57
SPEAKER_01: It's very easy if you're competent,
22:59
SPEAKER_01: especially to just make money because,
23:02
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:02
SPEAKER_01: those are,
23:03
SPEAKER_01: those opportunities still exist.
23:04
SPEAKER_01: They're available to you.
23:06
SPEAKER_01: But if you are going to invest the time,
23:11
SPEAKER_01: energy,
23:11
SPEAKER_01: and effort into rebuilding social structure,
23:16
SPEAKER_01: you think of what are the incentives to do that?
23:18
SPEAKER_01: Well,
23:18
the incentives exist very obviously and immediately if you have
23:22
the ability to look
23:23
SPEAKER_01: beyond the existing system and realize this is not sustainable.
23:27
SPEAKER_01: This is not going to work long-term.
23:29
SPEAKER_01: And
23:30
SPEAKER_01: if I just maximize my short-term value inside the system,
23:34
SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna,
23:34
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna stay on the sinking ship.
23:37
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's the Titanic.
23:38
Maybe I'm like in the dining room,
23:39
like eating all the caviar or whatever it is,
23:41
right?
23:42
SPEAKER_01: But like, you know, that thing's going under.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: And so what you want is you want people who are willing to do the hard,
23:49
SPEAKER_01: heavy lift of this kind of pioneering,
23:53
SPEAKER_01: this rebuilding of social structure.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: And I found that the best way to do that is
23:58
again,
23:59
find people who are already building because those people
24:01
already get it,
24:02
right?
24:02
They already see the value to the extent that they're willing
24:05
to take action.
24:06
And so you don't have to do all of this work corralling people
24:10
and convincing them.
24:11
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I try to do with a lot of my articles is like,
24:14
I'm not trying to necessarily make this so it's people out in
24:18
the mainstream are
24:18
SPEAKER_01: seeing this and then joining,
24:20
SPEAKER_01: right?
24:20
I'm really trying to find the other people like yourself who
24:23
already get it,
24:24
SPEAKER_01: who wanna be invested,
24:25
SPEAKER_01: who wanna build,
24:26
SPEAKER_01: who maybe you've done stuff already
24:28
and bring those people together because then those people can
24:31
share ideas,
24:32
SPEAKER_01: they can work together on projects.
24:34
SPEAKER_01: And the other interesting thing about this is,
24:37
SPEAKER_01: especially in the online space,
24:39
SPEAKER_01: because of that kind of like LARP-y stuff,
24:42
SPEAKER_01: people can be very puritanical about like,
24:44
SPEAKER_01: oh,
24:44
SPEAKER_01: you're not part of our group,
24:45
SPEAKER_01: right?
24:46
SPEAKER_01: Like,
24:46
SPEAKER_01: I think that generally people in this sphere,
24:50
SPEAKER_01: you know,
24:51
SPEAKER_01: especially like the counterculture kind of build alternative,
24:55
SPEAKER_01: like maybe roughly has kind of like a right leaning side to it.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: But,
25:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
25:01
SPEAKER_01: living in the small towns that I have,
25:03
like I was volunteering at the search and rescue the last town
25:06
that I was living
25:07
SPEAKER_01: in.
25:07
There's a woman who worked there who probably voted in a
25:11
different way than I would
25:12
SPEAKER_01: vote in the ballot box.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: But,
25:15
and I use this example because she was showing up and helping
25:18
out at the search and
25:18
SPEAKER_01: rescue and volunteering her time and doing great work.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: And it was just like this person,
25:24
is more my ally and what I'm trying to do as far as rebuilding
25:27
social structure
25:28
SPEAKER_01: than any of like the most fervent,
25:30
SPEAKER_01: ideologically,
25:31
SPEAKER_01: a great,
25:31
SPEAKER_01: you know,
25:31
SPEAKER_01: agreeable person online,
25:33
SPEAKER_01: just terminally online and just doing that.
25:36
SPEAKER_01: And so that's the other things.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: Like one, you're looking for quality people.
25:39
You're looking for people who are at this kind of demonstrated
25:41
by the virtue of
25:42
SPEAKER_01: their action and their dedication.
25:44
SPEAKER_01: And then two, like,
25:45
SPEAKER_01: get over this kind of like binary left-right political distinction,
25:50
SPEAKER_01: like the people who are building community,
25:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure in like your efforts to help out in Detroit,
25:54
SPEAKER_01: like probably ran into like a bunch of people who might have been,
25:58
SPEAKER_01: you know,
25:58
SPEAKER_01: ideologically different,
26:00
SPEAKER_01: but they care about the community.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: And I think that once you kind of put that aside, those are distinctions.
26:06
And like,
26:07
there is going to be a much more popular movement in my
26:10
opinion.
26:10
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's largely out of necessity.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: Like people realize like,
26:15
SPEAKER_01: And I've never felt like the left or the right was like one side's right,
26:19
SPEAKER_01: one side's wrong,
26:20
SPEAKER_01: right?
26:20
SPEAKER_01: Like it's very much in their most positive incarnations,
26:24
SPEAKER_01: like,
26:25
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:25
SPEAKER_01: creativity and order,
26:26
SPEAKER_01: right?
26:27
SPEAKER_01: Like they need to be there to balance each other out, right?
26:29
Like empathy,
26:30
but also,
26:31
you know,
26:32
kind of,
26:33
you know,
26:33
like a seriousness or whatever kind of like
26:36
SPEAKER_01: you know, those juxtaposition of those healthy forces.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: And so,
26:40
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:41
SPEAKER_01: for me,
26:41
SPEAKER_01: as far as like getting this thing rolling,
26:43
SPEAKER_01: it's really about finding people who by virtue of their actions,
26:48
care about this stuff that work on this stuff and trying to
26:50
bring them together.
26:51
And once that alternative is a little bit more solidified and
26:55
people like see it as
26:56
SPEAKER_01: something that they can move towards,
26:58
SPEAKER_01: you're going to get further adoption.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: And then we're going to have different problems of like,
27:02
SPEAKER_01: you know,
27:03
making sure we're not bringing in people who are going to like
27:05
try to subvert it or
27:06
change it in their own direction or try to do what they want to
27:08
do or anything like
27:09
SPEAKER_01: that.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
27:10
I think right now it's about how do you find good quality
27:13
people knowing that's
27:14
SPEAKER_01: going to take time.
27:15
SPEAKER_01: It's going to be slow.
27:16
And you know,
27:18
the filters that certain people put on it just don't make
27:22
sense.
27:24
I think it's a good,
27:24
it's a good segue to,
27:26
to,
27:26
to give a little bit more background.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: You talked a little bit about it right at the beginning, but,
27:31
SPEAKER_00: you know,
27:31
SPEAKER_00: I came across you originally through your writing and as you say,
27:35
SPEAKER_00: call yourself an online personality.
27:37
And so can you just break down like more specifically or just
27:41
step back first and
27:43
SPEAKER_00: just like talk about the meta prime project,
27:45
SPEAKER_00: exactly what that is and like,
27:47
SPEAKER_00: like what you,
27:48
SPEAKER_00: what you actually do every day?
27:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: Well, so, so I have like an actual, uh, job.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: So I run my own recruiting consultancy and so I help
27:57
SPEAKER_01: you know, people hire and do that kind of stuff.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: I've been working in tech for a while.
28:01
SPEAKER_01: And before that, I was a rower and a rowing coach.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: It's,
28:05
SPEAKER_01: you know,
28:06
SPEAKER_01: it's a bit of a history,
28:07
SPEAKER_01: but basically what happened was working in tech,
28:11
I had both really great opportunities where I was working for
28:14
people who I really
28:15
SPEAKER_01: liked or great mentors.
28:17
SPEAKER_01: They really like,
28:19
SPEAKER_01: taught me some really insightful,
28:21
SPEAKER_01: brilliant,
28:21
SPEAKER_01: brilliant people,
28:22
SPEAKER_01: you know,
28:22
SPEAKER_01: and I was very kind of lucky to be around that.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: And then,
28:25
SPEAKER_01: you know,
28:25
SPEAKER_01: I experienced just the worst that the modern,
28:30
SPEAKER_01: you know,
28:30
SPEAKER_01: large tech companies have to offer in the sense that like just completely
28:34
SPEAKER_01: narcissistic,
28:35
SPEAKER_01: ignorant middle managers,
28:37
SPEAKER_01: you know,
28:38
SPEAKER_01: one of those things where it's like,
28:39
if you do something because you're honestly trying to help and
28:42
make things better,
28:42
SPEAKER_01: and then you end up upsetting a bunch of people and you're like,
28:45
SPEAKER_01: what went wrong?
28:46
SPEAKER_01: And you realize like, oh, they don't want people who are going to,
28:49
SPEAKER_01: you know,
28:49
upend the system and change it for the better because they're
28:52
happy with their like
28:53
little grift or their do nothing middle management job or
28:56
something like that.
28:58
SPEAKER_01: And then also,
28:58
SPEAKER_01: you know,
28:58
SPEAKER_01: the,
28:58
SPEAKER_01: the,
28:59
SPEAKER_01: the normal kind of like,
29:01
SPEAKER_01: you know,
29:02
SPEAKER_01: straight guy,
29:02
SPEAKER_01: white guy,
29:03
SPEAKER_01: discrimination stuff.
29:05
SPEAKER_01: It's all of like the modern kind of things.
29:08
SPEAKER_01: And so for me, it was kind of like realizing,
29:12
SPEAKER_01: I think the big part of it was I started out East Coast,
29:16
SPEAKER_01: barely liberal family,
29:17
SPEAKER_01: listened to NPR.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: I was kind of a Bernie bro back in 2016.
29:23
SPEAKER_01: The funny thing is I don't even consider myself a radical in any sense.
29:30
SPEAKER_01: My politics around Bernie were like,
29:33
SPEAKER_01: no wasteful government spending,
29:35
SPEAKER_01: no wars,
29:36
SPEAKER_01: take care of people at home.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: That's still basically my philosophy these days.
29:46
SPEAKER_01: For me, I had earnestly tried to engage with the system.
29:50
I had bought into the idea that everything was run by
29:53
functional adults who really
29:55
SPEAKER_01: understood things and got it.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: Running into that in the business world where I was like,
30:02
SPEAKER_01: wow,
30:03
SPEAKER_01: there's a lot of incompetence and corruption and nepotism and ignorance.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: And,
30:09
but not on just kind of like little things here and there that
30:11
kind of like make
30:12
SPEAKER_01: things just like a little bit more difficult than they need to be,
30:15
SPEAKER_01: but otherwise it's fine.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: It's like,
30:17
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:17
SPEAKER_01: you take a step back and you're like,
30:19
SPEAKER_01: oh no,
30:19
SPEAKER_01: there's just parts of society that are just completely going down.
30:24
SPEAKER_01: And so for me,
30:26
SPEAKER_01: and I,
30:26
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:27
SPEAKER_01: and everyone had their,
30:28
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:29
SPEAKER_01: their kind of awakening moment,
30:30
SPEAKER_01: right?
30:30
Whether that was like elections or,
30:33
you know,
30:34
COVID or whatever it was,
30:36
right?
30:36
And so what I was trying to do when I first started the meta
30:39
crime project was
30:42
SPEAKER_01: going through that transition from like being kind of,
30:45
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:46
SPEAKER_01: a normal liberal kind of like,
30:49
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:49
SPEAKER_01: liberal millennial who wasn't paying too much attention to politics,
30:52
SPEAKER_01: but,
30:53
SPEAKER_01: really bought into like the,
30:54
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:54
SPEAKER_01: positive,
30:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:55
SPEAKER_01: feel good vibes of like,
30:57
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:58
SPEAKER_01: liberal politics to kind of someone who kind of,
31:01
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:01
SPEAKER_01: started realizing,
31:02
SPEAKER_01: oh,
31:02
SPEAKER_01: maybe the media is not saying everything that we want.
31:04
Maybe corporations are pretty greedy and extractive and,
31:07
you know,
31:08
all that kind of stuff.
31:09
SPEAKER_01: The question is like,
31:11
SPEAKER_01: how do you go through that experience,
31:13
that process in a way where you're not getting like sucked down
31:17
conspiracy theory,
31:18
SPEAKER_01: rabbit holes,
31:18
SPEAKER_01: or getting hyper fixated on like,
31:20
SPEAKER_01: oh,
31:21
SPEAKER_01: the injustice of everything.
31:22
Like again,
31:23
not fixating on the problems,
31:24
but getting towards the actionable solutions.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: And so that was like a stressful time.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: I think another part of it too,
31:33
SPEAKER_01: is like when you're embedded,
31:34
SPEAKER_01: like the network of social network that you're a part of,
31:38
SPEAKER_01: when you think about things in a certain way,
31:41
SPEAKER_01: it is a bubble in the sense that it's self-reinforcing, right?
31:43
SPEAKER_01: It's like,
31:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:45
SPEAKER_01: even if you don't mean for it to be,
31:46
SPEAKER_01: it's like the people you talk to,
31:48
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:49
SPEAKER_01: reflect back your worldview usually,
31:51
SPEAKER_01: or else you kind of move away from or whatever.
31:53
SPEAKER_01: And so if you go through like a big shift,
31:54
SPEAKER_01: like,
31:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:56
SPEAKER_01: going from trusting to not trusting the media,
31:58
SPEAKER_01: for example,
31:59
SPEAKER_01: or thinking that might have an alternative agenda,
32:02
SPEAKER_01: like,
32:04
The people that you can talk to in your network are much
32:08
smaller than the normal conversations.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: You have to make these big shifts.
32:12
SPEAKER_01: You have to be smart about it.
32:13
SPEAKER_01: You don't want to burn bridges with people.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: Your friends, family, and whatever, they're still good people.
32:20
Just because they don't see the world you do in the way that
32:23
you do doesn't mean
32:25
that they're any less like your friends or family or that you
32:27
should have those
32:27
SPEAKER_01: connections.
32:29
SPEAKER_01: all of this to say that was like a rough transition for me.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: Cause like, I didn't really know what I was doing.
32:34
SPEAKER_01: I was like kind of look, looking for truth.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: I was, um, you want to find like an authority or something like that.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: And honestly,
32:43
I don't really think that there's anyone like Jordan Peterson
32:46
was kind of like nice
32:46
SPEAKER_01: to have during that time.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: Cause you just like be responsible and like that,
32:49
SPEAKER_01: you know,
32:49
SPEAKER_01: that's like a pretty transcendently positive,
32:51
SPEAKER_01: like message for,
32:52
SPEAKER_01: for people that it's like,
32:53
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
32:54
SPEAKER_01: the world's hard,
32:54
SPEAKER_01: but like,
32:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
32:55
SPEAKER_01: take on your responsibility.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: But,
32:58
SPEAKER_01: There wasn't too many people who I felt like,
33:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
33:01
SPEAKER_01: had kind of like a,
33:02
SPEAKER_01: just a very reasonable,
33:03
SPEAKER_01: like,
33:04
SPEAKER_01: like,
33:05
SPEAKER_01: yes,
33:05
SPEAKER_01: the world is crazy,
33:06
SPEAKER_01: but like,
33:07
SPEAKER_01: focus on what you can control.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: Like,
33:09
that's a very big part of the Metaprime project is when I'm
33:11
talking about like
33:12
SPEAKER_01: framework building.
33:14
I'm like,
33:14
look,
33:14
you don't have to find the capital T truth about how everything
33:18
works,
33:19
right?
33:19
SPEAKER_01: What you need to figure out is what is valuable in your life?
33:21
SPEAKER_01: What do you actually want?
33:22
SPEAKER_01: What's going to make you happy?
33:23
SPEAKER_01: What's going to be meaningful?
33:25
SPEAKER_01: And then how do you go and do that?
33:26
And a lot of times it's just as simple as like becoming more
33:29
competent and friendly
33:30
and building these local networks and having good relationships
33:33
with people.
33:35
SPEAKER_01: Like people get too caught up in a lot of these things.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: And so what I wanted to do is create effectively an orientation.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: for people who are breaking from the mainstream delusion,
33:44
SPEAKER_01: as I call it,
33:45
SPEAKER_01: and kind of trying to find a healthy alternative,
33:48
SPEAKER_01: you know,
33:49
SPEAKER_01: and I,
33:49
SPEAKER_01: and I didn't like,
33:50
SPEAKER_01: you know,
33:50
SPEAKER_01: I,
33:51
SPEAKER_01: I saw so many people get,
33:53
SPEAKER_01: you know,
33:53
SPEAKER_01: like jaded and pessimistic and despondent or,
33:59
SPEAKER_01: you know,
34:00
SPEAKER_01: angry and just kind of,
34:02
SPEAKER_01: you know,
34:02
SPEAKER_01: like having this like kind of toxic rage.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: And so it was just like, like you need to create, right.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: That was the first article that I wrote for the meta prime project was
34:12
SPEAKER_01: live not in opposition to evil, but pursuit of good.
34:14
SPEAKER_01: And it was basically just like a call to say,
34:16
SPEAKER_01: Hey,
34:17
SPEAKER_01: look,
34:17
SPEAKER_01: like I get,
34:19
SPEAKER_01: you know,
34:19
SPEAKER_01: the,
34:19
SPEAKER_01: the,
34:20
SPEAKER_01: you know,
34:20
SPEAKER_01: the kind of very like angsty kind of LARP fantasy of like,
34:24
SPEAKER_01: we're going to burn everything down.
34:26
SPEAKER_01: This is the, your system's corrupt.
34:27
SPEAKER_01: Like fine.
34:29
SPEAKER_01: Even if you did achieve that, what is going to replace it?
34:32
SPEAKER_01: Right?
34:32
Like,
34:32
you know,
34:33
we don't have enough people building healthy,
34:35
positive alternatives.
34:37
SPEAKER_01: And so that was a lot.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: of what I was trying to do.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: I wrote that five-step process of the journey.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: Since then, I've written these articles.
34:46
SPEAKER_01: To me,
34:48
SPEAKER_01: again,
34:48
SPEAKER_01: it's a continuation of a lot of what this is,
34:51
SPEAKER_01: which is just encouraging people to be practical,
34:54
SPEAKER_01: be local.
34:55
There's a path,
34:57
and it's a good path,
34:58
and it's a viable path,
34:59
and it's going to be meaningful.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: You're going to meet a lot of really cool people,
35:02
and you're going to invest in something that does have
35:05
long-term viability.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: So that was it for me.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: It's like, I was an absolute mess trying to figure everything out.
35:15
I'm kind of writing for my past self and hopefully that is
35:18
helpful to other people.
35:20
SPEAKER_01: And now that we're kind of working on these solutions,
35:22
people kind of get that hate fraternal networks or something
35:25
that would be a really
35:26
SPEAKER_01: powerful way we built going forward.
35:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to create more language,
35:30
more understanding around this new domain that we're trying to
35:33
figure out such that
35:34
we can be more effective in kind of this rebuilding of American
35:37
social fabric.
35:40
SPEAKER_00: And so you're talking about the concept of parallel systems.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: And so when you use this idea of building these parallel systems,
35:48
SPEAKER_00: which is like breaking away from kind of the mainstream,
35:53
SPEAKER_00: whatever,
35:53
SPEAKER_00: it could be an institution,
35:54
SPEAKER_00: it could be...
35:56
SPEAKER_00: ways thing and a certain, a certain industry works or whatever it is.
36:00
But when you're talking about parallel systems,
36:02
we still live in that world,
36:04
right?
36:04
SPEAKER_00: So that you still have to exist in that world.
36:06
SPEAKER_00: So is,
36:07
is your kind of thought and kind of what you put out there that
36:10
when you're
36:10
SPEAKER_00: building these parallel systems,
36:12
SPEAKER_00: it's like,
36:13
SPEAKER_00: you can't,
36:14
SPEAKER_00: like,
36:14
SPEAKER_00: if you just,
36:14
SPEAKER_00: like you said,
36:15
SPEAKER_00: go LARP and say,
36:15
I'm going to burn the whole thing down and just like disregard
36:18
the current system,
36:19
SPEAKER_00: you're going to be sitting out there on an Island.
36:22
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
36:24
So are you encouraging to say,
36:27
basically,
36:27
how do you straddle both in a way?
36:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
36:30
there's this concept that I've talked about in some of the
36:33
articles called being a
36:34
SPEAKER_01: master of both worlds,
36:35
SPEAKER_01: right?
36:36
It's like,
36:37
you know,
36:37
Jungian,
36:38
hero's journey,
36:39
kind of Joseph Campbell's kind of stuff,
36:40
right?
36:41
SPEAKER_01: Where,
36:43
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
36:43
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
36:43
SPEAKER_01: and it's the same thing as the people where I'm saying,
36:45
SPEAKER_01: like,
36:45
SPEAKER_01: we should build more economic or social capital.
36:48
SPEAKER_01: And people are saying, well, you don't have to have economic capital.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: It's like, yes, yes, definitely.
36:52
SPEAKER_01: So similarly,
36:54
SPEAKER_01: I see people who are like,
36:58
SPEAKER_01: let's build a community out in the woods or have a cabin or whatever.
37:01
SPEAKER_01: And it's like,
37:02
SPEAKER_01: hey,
37:02
SPEAKER_01: look,
37:03
SPEAKER_01: if that's what you want to do,
37:04
SPEAKER_01: and I've said this plenty of times before,
37:06
there's a lot of different paths that are out there that I
37:08
don't necessarily agree
37:10
SPEAKER_01: with the best path.
37:12
SPEAKER_01: But hey,
37:12
if you want to be the guy who builds the cabin or builds the
37:15
community apart and
37:17
SPEAKER_01: you see value in that,
37:19
I'd much rather you go and try and try to make it happen than
37:25
constantly arguing
37:26
SPEAKER_01: with people if it's viable or if it's not viable.
37:31
SPEAKER_01: But to me,
37:31
SPEAKER_01: the much more practical way of doing this is to say,
37:35
SPEAKER_01: hey,
37:36
SPEAKER_01: you can still be a good member of your community.
37:39
You can be someone who people around town like and you're
37:43
helpful and you're
37:44
SPEAKER_01: friendly and you're doing stuff.
37:47
You can go to the block party or the barbecue and just interact
37:51
positively with people.
37:52
SPEAKER_01: I think that's another thing is a lot of people are like,
37:55
I see the world differently and I can't like associate with
37:57
normal people anymore or whatever.
37:59
SPEAKER_01: It's like, what planet do you live on?
38:01
SPEAKER_01: Like everyone is just,
38:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
38:04
SPEAKER_01: they're,
38:04
they're fundamentally the same and that they want a good life
38:07
and they want to,
38:07
you know,
38:07
SPEAKER_01: they want to have social connection and they want things to be stable,
38:10
SPEAKER_01: you know?
38:12
SPEAKER_01: And so for me, it was like, if we can like encourage people to,
38:23
SPEAKER_01: maintain all those healthy,
38:24
SPEAKER_01: good,
38:25
SPEAKER_01: normal parts of their life,
38:27
SPEAKER_01: but also say,
38:28
SPEAKER_01: like on top of that,
38:30
SPEAKER_01: dedicate a little bit time of building these alternative systems.
38:32
SPEAKER_01: And for me,
38:33
SPEAKER_01: like the way that I think about it is very simply,
38:37
SPEAKER_01: everyone who's like,
38:38
SPEAKER_01: listen,
38:38
SPEAKER_01: if you're listening to this now,
38:40
SPEAKER_01: or if you read content or whatever,
38:41
like you can just start to get to know people a little bit more
38:45
intentionally in
38:45
SPEAKER_01: your community.
38:46
Like one of the suggestions that I make in the article is
38:48
become the guy,
38:50
right?
38:50
SPEAKER_01: And we all kind of know this concept of the guy who,
38:53
SPEAKER_01: you know, he's the one who knows everyone.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: It's like,
38:55
SPEAKER_01: he knows the mechanic that,
38:56
SPEAKER_01: you know,
38:56
SPEAKER_01: your car breaks down,
38:57
SPEAKER_01: you're talking to him and he's like,
38:58
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
38:58
SPEAKER_01: I got my mechanic friend.
38:59
Like you should go talk to him or like the barber or,
39:02
you know,
39:02
the finance dude or whatever.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: And honestly, building those connections is not hard.
39:08
It's like my car recently broke down a couple months back and
39:13
it was like one of
39:14
SPEAKER_01: the cylinders like gave out and,
39:16
SPEAKER_01: uh,
39:17
So I called up one of my friends and I was like,
39:19
Hey,
39:19
who's like the mechanic guy?
39:20
SPEAKER_01: And he was like, Oh, I think it's this dude.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: Well,
39:22
I actually asked a bunch of people and they all said the same
39:25
guy ended up like
39:27
SPEAKER_01: having him.
39:27
SPEAKER_01: He did a great job, you know, very fair price.
39:31
SPEAKER_01: We ended up like chatting for like an hour, an hour and a half.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: Like he's got a family.
39:35
SPEAKER_01: He can just try to build this business.
39:36
SPEAKER_01: Like he's on that wavelength of like,
39:38
SPEAKER_01: you know, I care about my community.
39:40
SPEAKER_01: I want to be better connected.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: Like that was part of the reason he got recommended, right?
39:43
SPEAKER_01: He's already kind of like tied in gray shading himself.
39:45
SPEAKER_01: And it's like now going forward,
39:48
SPEAKER_01: obviously anytime,
39:49
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:50
SPEAKER_01: someone has a car issue,
39:51
SPEAKER_01: like that's the guy I'm going to recommend.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: Right.
39:54
SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of how it should be, right?
39:55
SPEAKER_01: Is you should, you should be connected into,
39:59
SPEAKER_01: community, you should care about the people.
40:01
You don't have to go live in the woods and start subsistence
40:04
farming and living off the grid.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: That's not what this is about.
40:09
SPEAKER_01: Ideally,
40:10
we get to a point where one of the things that I see more and
40:14
more is there's a lot
40:15
SPEAKER_01: of regulations around farming.
40:18
SPEAKER_01: where it's like,
40:18
SPEAKER_01: oh,
40:19
you have to get your meat processed at this FDA approved or
40:23
whatever plant.
40:25
SPEAKER_01: And so you have to go through all these loopholes,
40:27
SPEAKER_01: government loopholes,
40:28
SPEAKER_01: if you're gonna sell as a farm.
40:31
And so one of the things that farmers are doing is like,
40:32
now you can buy a share in the cow.
40:35
And then they don't have to go through all those regulations,
40:37
you just get the meat directly.
40:39
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's kind of what's happening,
40:42
SPEAKER_01: is people are finding like,
40:43
SPEAKER_01: hey,
40:43
SPEAKER_01: if I have local connections,
40:45
SPEAKER_01: if I know people directly,
40:48
SPEAKER_01: I can, you know, I get my car fixed a little bit faster.
40:51
SPEAKER_01: I know I'm not going to get jilted or,
40:53
SPEAKER_01: you know,
40:53
SPEAKER_01: I know the farmer and the,
40:55
SPEAKER_01: he saves money,
40:56
SPEAKER_01: not having to go through all this stuff.
40:57
SPEAKER_01: And I truck going, he's doing a good job and yeah.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: And, and so for me, it's not like, it's not this separate society thing.
41:05
SPEAKER_01: It's just,
41:07
SPEAKER_01: you're,
41:07
you're rebuilding the social fabric on top of like the economic
41:11
structure that
41:12
SPEAKER_01: exists.
41:13
SPEAKER_01: And what this ideally is starting to do is,
41:17
SPEAKER_01: you know, social capital can't be taxed, right?
41:20
SPEAKER_01: It can't like,
41:20
SPEAKER_01: you know,
41:21
SPEAKER_01: it's like moving into that alternative gives us a huge benefit,
41:24
SPEAKER_01: but it also gives us negotiation power,
41:26
SPEAKER_01: right?
41:27
SPEAKER_01: It's like,
41:28
SPEAKER_01: you know,
41:28
you can't not eat the processed chemical foods if you don't
41:33
have the healthy farms
41:34
SPEAKER_01: around you,
41:34
SPEAKER_01: but the more kind of energy you're giving them,
41:37
SPEAKER_01: whether it's social,
41:38
SPEAKER_01: economic capital or whatever,
41:39
SPEAKER_01: the investment that you're putting in means that's much more like viable,
41:43
SPEAKER_01: successful alternative,
41:44
SPEAKER_01: right?
41:44
SPEAKER_01: And so that's kind of how I see a lot of this is
41:48
we're kind of waking up to the fact that the completely
41:51
economized system that
41:52
we're currently immersed in is just not viable and building a
41:56
parallel system.
41:57
SPEAKER_01: It's not like we can stand one up overnight instantaneously,
42:00
but we can start building it through these kind of like greater
42:04
social connections
42:05
SPEAKER_01: that,
42:05
SPEAKER_01: you know,
42:06
SPEAKER_01: pick up steam over time and put us in a position where,
42:09
SPEAKER_01: you know,
42:10
SPEAKER_01: we,
42:10
SPEAKER_01: we have alternatives that are probably,
42:12
SPEAKER_01: you know,
42:13
SPEAKER_01: and again,
42:13
SPEAKER_01: we read,
42:14
SPEAKER_01: recapture all of those kind of like ecosystem,
42:17
SPEAKER_01: natural balance,
42:18
SPEAKER_01: invisible elements that I was talking about earlier,
42:20
SPEAKER_01: where it's like,
42:22
SPEAKER_01: you know,
42:22
SPEAKER_01: as you start to build that network,
42:24
SPEAKER_01: reputation becomes a thing.
42:26
SPEAKER_01: And like having a good reputation is important,
42:28
which incentivizes people to cooperate and be more honest and
42:31
trustworthy and,
42:32
SPEAKER_01: you know,
42:32
SPEAKER_01: cooperative.
42:33
SPEAKER_01: And so like,
42:35
SPEAKER_01: I think it's one of those things where it's like,
42:36
SPEAKER_01: as that emerges,
42:38
we're just going to be amazed at all the ways it kind of like
42:40
fixes a lot of these
42:41
SPEAKER_01: problems that we're running into today.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: Well,
42:44
SPEAKER_00: I think,
42:45
SPEAKER_00: you know,
42:46
SPEAKER_00: you,
42:47
SPEAKER_00: while you were,
42:48
SPEAKER_00: I was writing a couple of notes when you were talking there and I think,
42:50
SPEAKER_00: um,
42:50
SPEAKER_00: and I think it's this perfect segue into the concept of going direct,
42:53
SPEAKER_00: right?
42:54
SPEAKER_00: Cause I think this is right.
42:55
You hit right on where this intersection of kind of your work
42:59
and your writing,
42:59
um,
43:01
SPEAKER_00: intersects with my work and what I'm doing.
43:05
SPEAKER_00: And I've always said at the very beginning,
43:09
the core kind of community and a lot of the folks that I speak
43:12
to are more like
43:13
SPEAKER_00: founders and engineers,
43:15
entrepreneurs that are building technologies or being very
43:17
intentional about
43:19
building systems that enable to go direct to bring us closer to
43:22
the products that
43:23
SPEAKER_00: we buy and the people that make them.
43:25
Like I just did a,
43:26
so I just,
43:27
and it's like a really,
43:28
really important thing.
43:29
SPEAKER_00: And I,
43:29
SPEAKER_00: we were talking just before this pod about kind of your,
43:33
SPEAKER_00: what you're planning for your next article,
43:34
SPEAKER_00: which we're going to get into.
43:35
SPEAKER_00: I think it's,
43:35
SPEAKER_00: it dovetails perfectly into this and I'll give you,
43:39
SPEAKER_00: I'll just give you a perfect little,
43:41
SPEAKER_00: I'll just give you a perfect example.
43:43
SPEAKER_00: Cause I just did a, just recorded one.
43:44
SPEAKER_00: We'll be putting it up in a few weeks.
43:47
SPEAKER_00: And it's a gentleman, shout out to Oren.
43:48
SPEAKER_00: He started a company called Area 2 Farms.
43:51
SPEAKER_00: And so he has a fascinating background.
43:54
SPEAKER_00: He worked at the NSA for a decade,
43:56
SPEAKER_00: started a cybersecurity company,
43:58
SPEAKER_00: had a pretty attractive exit.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: And then he somehow landed on the local food systems.
44:05
SPEAKER_00: And so he's literally creating small 5,000 square foot indoor farms.
44:11
all soil-based it's all soil-based growing so it's not
44:15
hydroponics this is like
44:16
SPEAKER_00: very big into the nutrients and flavor
44:19
SPEAKER_00: But what he's doing is he basically was like,
44:22
SPEAKER_00: if you look at a lot of these vertical farming companies,
44:25
SPEAKER_00: one of the biggest problems they have in most of the industries,
44:27
SPEAKER_00: which is a separate conversation,
44:28
SPEAKER_00: is distribution.
44:29
SPEAKER_00: So most of these vertical farming companies, none of them worked out.
44:32
They were still trying to sell their produce or their lettuce
44:36
through the same
44:36
SPEAKER_00: distribution model.
44:38
SPEAKER_00: And that's where everything breaks down because of the middlemen,
44:40
SPEAKER_00: because of the gatekeeping,
44:41
SPEAKER_00: you're not going direct.
44:43
SPEAKER_00: And so what they're doing, like their vision,
44:45
is it's like a modified kind of CSA model where kind of you
44:49
have a local farmer
44:50
SPEAKER_00: entrepreneur that runs the indoor farm.
44:55
SPEAKER_00: And then within,
44:57
SPEAKER_00: the idea is within a five to 10 minute radius of that farm,
45:01
that's where all the families that you service get all of their
45:05
vegetables for the
45:06
SPEAKER_00: week and produce for the week.
45:08
And so he's really basically localizing both the production and
45:11
the distribution.
45:12
in a very very local way and in vertically integrating that and
45:17
the reason why i
45:17
bring that up is you mentioned it with that concept of like
45:23
buying the share of the
45:23
SPEAKER_00: cow and getting it directly from the farmer right i am just so shocked
45:31
SPEAKER_00: and this is my optimistic view of kind of the side of AI and robotics and
45:34
SPEAKER_00: technology,
45:34
but I am just so shocked how people don't connect this
45:37
breakdown of social
45:37
structure and loneliness with the fact that we have no
45:40
connection to the things
45:41
SPEAKER_00: that we're consuming generally or the people that make them.
45:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:48
SPEAKER_01: You couldn't be anymore.
45:49
SPEAKER_01: Right.
45:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's funny.
45:50
SPEAKER_01: So came back to the East coast for the holidays and I made a point,
45:54
SPEAKER_01: like got a great leather shop that's,
45:57
SPEAKER_01: you know,
45:58
SPEAKER_01: up in Northern Idaho called like crafts and Lord.
46:02
SPEAKER_01: amazing dude.
46:02
SPEAKER_01: He's been working for like 10 years, just gorgeous products.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: Like, so I, I, you know, I got a bunch of leather stuff for all the guys.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: And then there's another,
46:11
SPEAKER_01: a great company called,
46:14
SPEAKER_01: uh,
46:15
SPEAKER_01: Idaho tallow and they make soaps and all this other really great stuff.
46:20
SPEAKER_01: So,
46:20
SPEAKER_01: you know,
46:21
SPEAKER_01: all the,
46:22
SPEAKER_01: all the girls in the family got,
46:24
SPEAKER_01: you know,
46:24
SPEAKER_01: beef tallow,
46:25
SPEAKER_01: uh,
46:26
SPEAKER_01: soap bars and stuff like that.
46:27
SPEAKER_01: And they, you know, they love that stuff.
46:28
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, to me, it's not just like, all right, these are
46:32
SPEAKER_01: really beautifully made handcrafted stuff,
46:35
SPEAKER_01: but it's also like,
46:37
SPEAKER_01: like I feel good knowing that like,
46:40
SPEAKER_01: you know,
46:40
SPEAKER_01: whatever money I'm spending on presence is,
46:42
SPEAKER_01: is going to like local people in my area.
46:46
SPEAKER_01: And we'll,
46:47
SPEAKER_01: we'll definitely talk even when we get off the podcast,
46:51
I want to tell you a little bit about some of the other
46:52
projects that we have going
46:53
SPEAKER_01: on.
46:53
SPEAKER_01: So that's a big part of what the, my goal with the meta network is,
46:58
SPEAKER_01: is we've got this great fraternity online of,
47:00
of all these great guys that have all these interesting ideas
47:03
and guys like
47:04
SPEAKER_01: yourself who are doing this stuff.
47:06
And what I want to do is kind of connect them with other people
47:08
on the same
47:09
SPEAKER_01: wavelength and kind of help them out.
47:10
SPEAKER_01: Because I think you're absolutely right.
47:13
SPEAKER_01: We have some ideas floating around of like how,
47:15
SPEAKER_01: like one of the problems in the space,
47:18
SPEAKER_01: for example,
47:18
SPEAKER_01: is you want to network people together.
47:23
SPEAKER_01: So you want connectivity, but you also want privacy.
47:25
SPEAKER_01: right?
47:25
SPEAKER_01: Like people don't necessarily,
47:26
SPEAKER_01: like if they're part of this space,
47:28
SPEAKER_01: like,
47:29
SPEAKER_01: you know,
47:29
SPEAKER_01: they have their own views and,
47:30
SPEAKER_01: you know,
47:31
SPEAKER_01: they don't want to be accosted by like a ton of people.
47:33
So how do you kind of maximize searchability of a network and
47:36
accessibility of a
47:36
SPEAKER_01: network with privacy also as a high priority?
47:40
SPEAKER_01: Well,
47:41
SPEAKER_01: the way that I've found as,
47:42
SPEAKER_01: you know,
47:43
SPEAKER_01: someone who does a lot of networking is referrals,
47:45
SPEAKER_01: right?
47:46
SPEAKER_01: It's like,
47:46
if I know a guy and I know another guy and they both trust me
47:49
and I like both of
47:50
SPEAKER_01: them and I know both of them,
47:51
SPEAKER_01: like I can be like,
47:52
SPEAKER_01: hey,
47:53
SPEAKER_01: you don't know this other
47:54
SPEAKER_01: So you don't know anything about it,
47:55
SPEAKER_01: but I'll selectively share the information that's relevant.
47:59
SPEAKER_01: I'll endorse him as someone I really think is a great connection.
48:02
SPEAKER_01: And I'll do the same going the other direction.
48:04
SPEAKER_01: And then I'll set those guys up and they'll have a conversation.
48:06
SPEAKER_01: And I do,
48:06
SPEAKER_01: you know,
48:07
SPEAKER_01: ideally it goes really well and they can go off and synergize and do,
48:10
SPEAKER_01: you know,
48:10
SPEAKER_01: other things together.
48:12
SPEAKER_01: And so how do you do that?
48:13
SPEAKER_01: You know, in a network, like, well, you can use AI to be an intermediary.
48:18
SPEAKER_01: Like there's, and then what does that open up?
48:21
SPEAKER_01: If you have like a highly searchable yet private network that can,
48:24
SPEAKER_01: do these things.
48:25
SPEAKER_01: So we've got some ideas around that,
48:27
but like what you're talking about of like localized
48:31
distribution and like,
48:32
SPEAKER_01: that's the idea is like technology.
48:36
I think,
48:36
you know,
48:37
another article that I wrote was called refuting techno
48:39
transhumanism.
48:41
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like,
48:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm not a Luddite,
48:43
SPEAKER_01: but I also,
48:43
SPEAKER_01: I think that,
48:45
SPEAKER_01: you know,
48:45
SPEAKER_01: unabashed and unrestrained,
48:47
SPEAKER_01: like techno transhumanism is,
48:49
SPEAKER_01: is extremely dangerous.
48:52
SPEAKER_01: I also think there's a lot of like fantasical,
48:54
SPEAKER_01: you know, misconceptions about what technology can do.
48:56
SPEAKER_01: And so that's a lot of that is trying to,
48:58
SPEAKER_01: that article is trying to be kind of measured,
49:00
SPEAKER_01: but it's also trying to kind of promote people like,
49:02
SPEAKER_01: look,
49:03
SPEAKER_01: you can use technology synergistically with this kind of healthy,
49:07
SPEAKER_01: natural way of being these natural social structures.
49:11
It's really a matter of modeling the way that the technology
49:15
operates off how
49:17
SPEAKER_01: natural,
49:17
SPEAKER_01: healthy social structures would work.
49:20
SPEAKER_01: Right.
49:20
SPEAKER_01: So like that, I, that example of like,
49:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm the referral source,
49:24
SPEAKER_01: and if we can digitize a similar structure of referral source,
49:28
SPEAKER_01: right,
49:28
SPEAKER_01: that's also going to be effective.
49:29
SPEAKER_01: And so I think what you're talking about,
49:30
SPEAKER_01: like,
49:31
SPEAKER_01: hey,
49:31
SPEAKER_01: people used to just get their food from,
49:34
SPEAKER_01: like,
49:34
SPEAKER_01: the local farm,
49:35
SPEAKER_01: right?
49:36
SPEAKER_01: Like, why can't we just go back to that, to your point?
49:38
SPEAKER_01: Like,
49:38
the value of having people who are locally connected and they
49:41
appreciate that,
49:43
SPEAKER_01: that's such a game changer,
49:44
SPEAKER_01: right?
49:45
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, no reason not to use technology to do that.
49:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
49:49
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
49:50
SPEAKER_00: I think that,
49:50
SPEAKER_00: and that was why that's what gave me the,
49:53
like really gave me the impetus to put out so much time and
49:55
energy into this is
49:58
SPEAKER_00: because about 18 months ago,
49:59
SPEAKER_00: 24 months ago,
50:00
SPEAKER_00: I was like,
50:01
SPEAKER_00: oh,
50:01
SPEAKER_00: like I was seeing the tools and the technology starting in like 2023-ish,
50:07
SPEAKER_00: 2024.
50:07
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, like actually, yeah.
50:12
SPEAKER_00: AI robotics are going to transform the physical world.
50:15
SPEAKER_00: And,
50:15
SPEAKER_00: and actually what was actually happening right now,
50:18
SPEAKER_00: and you kind of alluded to this in a different way,
50:21
SPEAKER_00: which is many of our central,
50:24
SPEAKER_00: like our old centralized systems,
50:25
SPEAKER_00: they've just become too sclerotic.
50:27
And they're,
50:27
like I said,
50:28
they're not just aligned with most people's daily lives.
50:31
SPEAKER_00: Right.
50:31
SPEAKER_00: And I think there's no better,
50:33
SPEAKER_00: you know,
50:34
SPEAKER_00: example of obviously independent media versus traditional media.
50:38
SPEAKER_00: That was like the first card to fall.
50:39
SPEAKER_00: Right.
50:41
SPEAKER_00: And so what this is,
50:42
SPEAKER_00: if you study just like history,
50:44
it's always about this idea of like bundling and unbundling or
50:49
things centralized
50:50
SPEAKER_00: or decentralized.
50:50
SPEAKER_00: And like, we're, we're like a, we're biological systems, right?
50:53
SPEAKER_00: So like when things are just like,
50:54
SPEAKER_00: get so out of whack,
50:56
SPEAKER_00: like it's just going to naturally swing back the other way.
50:59
SPEAKER_00: It always happens, you know?
51:02
SPEAKER_00: And so this,
51:04
SPEAKER_00: this,
51:05
SPEAKER_00: to this like swing back to decentralization,
51:07
SPEAKER_00: but I'm also a realist similar to you kind of,
51:09
SPEAKER_00: when you talk about these parallel systems,
51:10
SPEAKER_00: I think about
51:14
SPEAKER_00: decentralizing the real economy,
51:15
SPEAKER_00: but I'm like,
51:16
I'm pounding the table because I am like a free markets guy and
51:19
I understand how
51:19
SPEAKER_00: the markets work and you have to be in,
51:21
SPEAKER_00: they're ruthlessly competitive.
51:22
SPEAKER_00: That's the reality.
51:24
SPEAKER_00: So while you and I can say,
51:25
SPEAKER_00: Hey,
51:25
SPEAKER_00: we want to get our shoes made from the local,
51:27
SPEAKER_00: you know,
51:28
SPEAKER_00: the local shoemaker.
51:30
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
51:30
SPEAKER_00: Well,
51:30
that's probably not going to happen because you need to be able
51:36
to have a model
51:36
SPEAKER_00: that competes on price and convenience at the end of the day,
51:40
SPEAKER_00: at some level,
51:40
SPEAKER_00: right?
51:41
SPEAKER_00: If
51:42
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm a realist.
51:45
SPEAKER_00: I'm stoic about it, right?
51:48
SPEAKER_00: But I'm very hopeful that if we apply the technology the right way,
51:51
we just have to bring it together with the right business
51:54
models and incentive
51:54
SPEAKER_00: structures to enable these more decentralized systems.
51:58
SPEAKER_00: And the reality is...
52:02
SPEAKER_00: Um,
52:02
SPEAKER_00: cause the world I come from,
52:03
SPEAKER_00: which is like,
52:03
SPEAKER_00: when you look at how like institutional investment funds are structured,
52:06
whether that's on the venture side or private equity side or
52:09
whatever it is,
52:09
it's like the incentive structures aren't there to do what a
52:12
lot of the stuff that
52:13
SPEAKER_00: you're talking about,
52:13
SPEAKER_00: which is like,
52:14
SPEAKER_00: you gotta start small.
52:16
SPEAKER_00: It's gonna take time.
52:18
SPEAKER_00: Like it's the, it's a lot of the non-sexy stuff.
52:21
SPEAKER_00: And that's actually how you build strong foundations to things.
52:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:26
SPEAKER_01: And I think the other exciting part in my mind is
52:30
SPEAKER_01: that it should you're absolutely right about the whole like it has to be
52:33
economically viable but the interesting thing is the existing
52:37
systems they're so
52:38
large they're so kind of stuck on their trajectories of like
52:43
you know exploitation
52:44
for profit think of like health care right and how did the
52:48
insane rising rates of
52:50
health insurance and how like people aren't really getting the
52:52
care that they need
52:53
but also on top of this like couple it with the fact that a lot
52:56
of these medical
52:58
SPEAKER_01: services right the you know the
53:00
SPEAKER_01: big pharma and all of these,
53:02
SPEAKER_01: they want not for you to be healthy,
53:04
SPEAKER_01: but for,
53:04
SPEAKER_01: to make profit off of you.
53:06
SPEAKER_01: Right.
53:07
SPEAKER_01: And so,
53:08
SPEAKER_01: you know,
53:08
SPEAKER_01: people are kind of like,
53:10
SPEAKER_01: you know,
53:11
there's one of the points that I bring up in the article that
53:13
I'm writing now is
53:14
there's two types of people who break from the system and
53:16
become disillusioned in
53:17
SPEAKER_01: how bad things are.
53:19
SPEAKER_01: The first is just pushed out by necessity, right?
53:22
SPEAKER_01: It's like you,
53:23
you stop paying for health insurance because you can literally
53:25
not afford to pay
53:26
SPEAKER_01: for health insurance.
53:28
SPEAKER_01: The other,
53:29
SPEAKER_01: group is those who have the foresight to see this is unsustainable.
53:33
SPEAKER_01: It's not going to work.
53:34
SPEAKER_01: I need to look for alternatives now while I still can, right?
53:37
SPEAKER_01: While I'm not in a dire situation later where I have to make a,
53:40
SPEAKER_01: you know,
53:40
SPEAKER_01: a last minute ditch switch.
53:43
SPEAKER_01: And what I see,
53:44
SPEAKER_01: because,
53:45
SPEAKER_01: you know,
53:46
I try to be as aware of these alternative systems as they're
53:49
growing as possible.
53:51
SPEAKER_01: There's a huge,
53:53
SPEAKER_01: like food is a very obvious one.
53:54
SPEAKER_01: Like more people are starting to eat local and organic.
53:57
SPEAKER_01: And I'm really excited for that.
53:58
SPEAKER_01: Cause that the other thing there is like,
54:01
SPEAKER_01: if you can,
54:02
SPEAKER_01: again,
54:02
SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of times if you get people to look at the more longterm,
54:06
SPEAKER_01: the incentives are there such that you don't need to like,
54:09
SPEAKER_01: that they should be doing that thing anyway.
54:11
SPEAKER_01: Right.
54:11
SPEAKER_01: So it's like,
54:12
SPEAKER_01: It's like short-term incentive of like,
54:14
SPEAKER_01: if you just want to eat delicious,
54:15
SPEAKER_01: cheap food,
54:16
SPEAKER_01: yes,
54:16
SPEAKER_01: you can buy stuff that's really bad for you.
54:19
SPEAKER_01: If you understand the value of eating,
54:21
SPEAKER_01: you know,
54:21
SPEAKER_01: healthy food and like understand that the extra price that you pay for,
54:26
SPEAKER_01: you know,
54:27
locally grown or whatever is price is like that cost is going
54:31
to be saved in your
54:33
SPEAKER_01: medical bill or the quality of life or,
54:35
SPEAKER_01: you know,
54:35
SPEAKER_01: it's a worthwhile investment,
54:37
SPEAKER_01: right?
54:38
SPEAKER_01: Then, you know, it's, it's an easy, it's an easy sell, right?
54:41
SPEAKER_01: You can get people on board.
54:43
SPEAKER_01: I think the medical field is another area that this is going to happen.
54:48
I have one particularly good friend of mine and I won't give
54:53
too much detail,
54:54
SPEAKER_01: but basically he's been doing his own thing for a while now,
54:58
SPEAKER_01: focusing on more holistic health,
55:00
SPEAKER_01: more comprehensive medicine,
55:02
SPEAKER_01: things,
55:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
55:03
SPEAKER_01: finding treatments that are effective.
55:06
And a lot of times the problem that the reason they don't get
55:09
adopted in the
55:10
SPEAKER_01: mainstream is because they're cheap,
55:11
SPEAKER_01: they're cheap and effective.
55:13
SPEAKER_01: And Big Pharma doesn't like that.
55:16
SPEAKER_01: And he's starting to see a lot of interest and investments.
55:22
SPEAKER_01: And so to me,
55:23
and I have another buddy who's working on something to do with
55:29
peptides and that
55:30
SPEAKER_01: rising field.
55:31
So there's all of these alternatives that are coming up that
55:35
don't necessarily have
55:37
SPEAKER_01: to be extremely economically competitive.
55:42
SPEAKER_01: in kind of like a one-to-one ratio so much as the big systems are just so
55:48
SPEAKER_01: unsustainable and becoming ineffective in what they're doing.
55:53
SPEAKER_01: And we have these innovations and they're going to be a little,
55:58
SPEAKER_01: you know,
55:58
SPEAKER_01: again,
55:59
SPEAKER_01: it takes some time to get them up and running and get them started.
56:02
And they're a little bit difficult at the beginning,
56:04
but the increase in quality
56:07
SPEAKER_01: And the efficiency is just going to be so much higher.
56:09
SPEAKER_01: And so,
56:10
SPEAKER_01: you know,
56:10
SPEAKER_01: very much what like a lot of startups try to do,
56:14
SPEAKER_01: I feel like we're kind of going through like a shift where it's like,
56:18
SPEAKER_01: you know,
56:18
there's these basically like cultural or social startups that
56:23
are happening that
56:24
SPEAKER_01: are going to take over like the broken parts that are falling apart now.
56:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
56:29
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
56:29
SPEAKER_00: I think,
56:29
I think you're just hitting at the point of it's kind of goes
56:31
back to the same
56:31
SPEAKER_00: thing.
56:31
SPEAKER_00: That's, that's the market forces at work, right?
56:34
So like if consumers are just not getting a good experience or
56:37
it's getting out of
56:38
SPEAKER_00: control,
56:38
SPEAKER_00: expensive there,
56:40
SPEAKER_00: and then you give them an alternative one,
56:41
SPEAKER_00: that's better.
56:41
SPEAKER_00: They're just going to go with the better one.
56:43
SPEAKER_00: I'll give you an example.
56:44
SPEAKER_00: So, um,
56:46
SPEAKER_00: I did an episode several months ago with Manan Shah.
56:49
SPEAKER_00: So he's an ENT surgeon and physician.
56:53
SPEAKER_00: And he created a direct care model for allergy treatment.
56:56
SPEAKER_00: And so it's kind of like a sublingual immunotherapy,
57:00
SPEAKER_00: which basically is like you take a test,
57:01
SPEAKER_00: whatever you're allergic to,
57:02
SPEAKER_00: and then you basically put a drop,
57:04
SPEAKER_00: a couple drops under your tongue for like,
57:06
SPEAKER_00: it takes the whole process is like two years.
57:08
SPEAKER_00: But it was a very interesting conversation because,
57:11
SPEAKER_00: you know,
57:11
SPEAKER_00: he is a surgeon and goes through like the traditional,
57:15
SPEAKER_00: you know,
57:15
SPEAKER_00: healthcare system and reimbursement system.
57:17
SPEAKER_00: And when they were creating this kind of direct care model,
57:19
SPEAKER_00: he just said,
57:20
SPEAKER_00: you know,
57:20
allergies was one of those things that was just like a really
57:22
good fit for it
57:23
SPEAKER_00: because,
57:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
57:25
SPEAKER_00: they do everything telehealth.
57:26
So people don't have to go into the,
57:27
actually go in to get their allergy shots every so often.
57:32
SPEAKER_00: They can do it remotely.
57:34
And what he was saying is the reimbursement rates and the cost
57:37
between your
57:37
SPEAKER_00: deductibles and your co-pays and everything,
57:41
SPEAKER_00: if you actually look at the cost now,
57:43
SPEAKER_00: not only is it more convenient,
57:44
SPEAKER_00: but it's actually cheaper to go through this therapy,
57:48
SPEAKER_00: which is also historically more effective.
57:50
SPEAKER_00: It's been used for a long time.
57:51
SPEAKER_00: And so my point of what I'm saying is I think it's just an example.
57:54
SPEAKER_00: A lot of times people like to get very overly intellectual about it.
57:59
SPEAKER_00: But like, it's just very simple.
58:01
SPEAKER_00: It's like,
58:02
SPEAKER_00: if you have a bad product,
58:02
it's too expensive and someone comes along and give something
58:05
that's cheaper and
58:06
SPEAKER_00: better and it works,
58:07
SPEAKER_00: like people are just going to rotate towards that.
58:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
58:12
And you know,
58:13
and it's funny too,
58:14
because I like this point of like,
58:16
what's practical,
58:17
right?
58:17
Because I think that's another thing that gate keeps a lot of
58:20
people out from
58:21
SPEAKER_01: having these conversations is they're like,
58:23
SPEAKER_01: we need to do big grandiose plan that's going to like,
58:27
SPEAKER_01: you know,
58:27
SPEAKER_01: magically fix everything.
58:28
SPEAKER_01: And it's like,
58:31
SPEAKER_01: what I appreciate about being in this space,
58:33
SPEAKER_01: it's a lot of people who are like,
58:34
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
58:34
I understand the world's difficult and weird and making a lot
58:38
of mistakes,
58:38
SPEAKER_01: but like,
58:38
SPEAKER_01: if we're going to fix it,
58:39
it has to kind of exist on these trajectories and these
58:44
dimensions of economic
58:45
viability and achievability and starting small and all that
58:49
kind of stuff.
58:49
SPEAKER_01: And,
58:51
SPEAKER_01: you know,
58:51
SPEAKER_01: it's,
58:51
SPEAKER_01: it,
58:52
SPEAKER_01: it filters out,
58:53
SPEAKER_01: you know,
58:53
SPEAKER_01: the,
58:54
SPEAKER_01: the,
58:55
SPEAKER_01: the more kind of head in the cloud people versus the practical ones,
58:58
SPEAKER_01: but also,
58:58
SPEAKER_01: and this is a,
59:00
point that I was touching a little bit on earlier is like,
59:02
how,
59:02
how do you start this?
59:03
SPEAKER_01: Well, you find the people who are already building.
59:06
SPEAKER_01: And I think that the,
59:08
SPEAKER_01: that duality between people who get pushed out of the system,
59:12
SPEAKER_01: not by,
59:13
SPEAKER_01: by,
59:13
SPEAKER_01: you know,
59:13
SPEAKER_01: by choice,
59:14
SPEAKER_01: but by kind of virtue of like,
59:15
SPEAKER_01: you know,
59:16
SPEAKER_01: they,
59:16
SPEAKER_01: they just can hack it.
59:17
SPEAKER_01: Like there's a bunch of people who are confident enough.
59:21
SPEAKER_01: And this is the kicker.
59:22
SPEAKER_01: They're confident enough to make it into the system, right?
59:24
SPEAKER_01: It sounds like,
59:24
SPEAKER_01: you know,
59:25
SPEAKER_01: it's not like you,
59:26
SPEAKER_01: you were like,
59:26
SPEAKER_01: we need to rebuild social structure because I can't get a job.
59:30
SPEAKER_01: you were like,
59:30
SPEAKER_01: you went home and you saw,
59:32
SPEAKER_01: you know,
59:32
SPEAKER_01: what was happening and you kind of reconnected.
59:35
SPEAKER_01: And so it's like,
59:36
SPEAKER_01: you're,
59:37
you're like a competent guy who becomes aware of the problem
59:40
and looks into the
59:41
SPEAKER_01: future and says,
59:42
SPEAKER_01: Hey,
59:42
SPEAKER_01: this isn't good.
59:43
SPEAKER_01: This isn't sustainable.
59:44
SPEAKER_01: And so that's really kind of the,
59:46
the group of people that I'm trying to find is the people who
59:49
are looking at
59:50
SPEAKER_01: everything and saying like,
59:51
SPEAKER_01: Hey,
59:52
things are kind of coming apart and this is not going to be
59:54
good longterm.
59:56
SPEAKER_01: And, but like,
59:57
SPEAKER_01: It's not, you know, we don't want to, we're not like accelerationists.
1:00:00
SPEAKER_01: We're not like,
1:00:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:00:02
SPEAKER_01: LARPing is like,
1:00:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:00:04
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:00:04
SPEAKER_01: post-apocalyptic,
1:00:06
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:00:06
SPEAKER_01: barbarian hordes that are going to like wander the plains or whatever.
1:00:09
SPEAKER_01: Like we're effectively, I think of it as,
1:00:13
SPEAKER_01: We're going through kind of like a second American ethnogenesis, right?
1:00:18
SPEAKER_01: It's like to become an American,
1:00:19
SPEAKER_01: like a very big part of this was you had to travel across the sea,
1:00:22
SPEAKER_01: you had to pioneer,
1:00:23
SPEAKER_01: you had to settle,
1:00:25
SPEAKER_01: you had to be entrepreneurial,
1:00:26
SPEAKER_01: you had to be independent,
1:00:27
SPEAKER_01: right?
1:00:28
SPEAKER_01: It was these kind of evolutionary filters.
1:00:30
SPEAKER_01: I think what's happening now...
1:00:33
SPEAKER_01: is a second version of that,
1:00:34
SPEAKER_01: where it's like,
1:00:35
SPEAKER_01: if you're going to be a part of what happens next,
1:00:38
you're going to find your way into these kind of rebuilding of
1:00:41
social structure.
1:00:42
SPEAKER_01: You have to be kind of pronatalism, right?
1:00:44
SPEAKER_01: Like you have to have a family, right?
1:00:46
SPEAKER_01: If you're not having kids, well, then guess what?
1:00:47
SPEAKER_01: You're not going to be part of the future, right?
1:00:50
SPEAKER_01: And I think similarly,
1:00:52
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:00:53
SPEAKER_01: there's a contingent of people who maybe are aware of all these problems.
1:00:57
They're not really doing anything or they're not doing anything
1:00:59
practical.
1:00:59
it's the people who are taking these practical steps that are
1:01:03
trying to find a
1:01:04
SPEAKER_01: healthy,
1:01:04
viable path where they've got one foot in both systems who are
1:01:09
going to make it.
1:01:10
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I mean, I'm very excited about it all.
1:01:13
SPEAKER_01: I think like,
1:01:14
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:01:15
SPEAKER_01: these,
1:01:15
SPEAKER_01: the people that I meet are,
1:01:17
SPEAKER_01: cause again,
1:01:17
SPEAKER_01: they're,
1:01:17
they're competent people who see the problems and are
1:01:20
practically working on the
1:01:21
SPEAKER_01: solution.
1:01:22
SPEAKER_01: They're a lot of fun to talk to.
1:01:23
SPEAKER_01: They're cool.
1:01:24
SPEAKER_01: They're doing interesting stuff.
1:01:26
SPEAKER_01: And, and you find all these cool little projects,
1:01:29
SPEAKER_01: And my thought is,
1:01:31
SPEAKER_01: if we can network all of these projects,
1:01:33
SPEAKER_01: leaders together,
1:01:34
not to say that they have to like be working on each other's
1:01:37
projects or whatever,
1:01:37
SPEAKER_01: but the shared collaboration,
1:01:40
SPEAKER_01: the shared awareness,
1:01:41
SPEAKER_01: right?
1:01:41
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm making a,
1:01:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to be on a call tomorrow with like two guys who,
1:01:48
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:01:48
one of them used to work in an industry and other guys building
1:01:51
a business in that
1:01:51
SPEAKER_01: industry.
1:01:52
SPEAKER_01: You know, he needs someone to do
1:01:56
SPEAKER_01: you know, some compliance consulting work or something like that.
1:01:58
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that's going to happen.
1:02:00
SPEAKER_01: And,
1:02:01
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:02:01
SPEAKER_01: so it's just these little things of like,
1:02:04
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:02:04
finding little ways to kind of make it easier for us to all
1:02:07
build these things that
1:02:08
SPEAKER_01: kind of in the different areas that we think are,
1:02:10
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:02:10
SPEAKER_01: have value.
1:02:12
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm really excited to be a part of that.
1:02:15
And it's something that I think the last thing I'll say about
1:02:19
it is there's a lot
1:02:21
SPEAKER_01: of quieter voices
1:02:23
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:02:24
SPEAKER_01: people who like lurk online,
1:02:25
SPEAKER_01: let's say,
1:02:26
SPEAKER_01: who they look at everything and you know,
1:02:28
SPEAKER_01: like,
1:02:29
SPEAKER_01: yes,
1:02:29
SPEAKER_01: they're,
1:02:29
SPEAKER_01: they're frustrated about all the problems and whatnot,
1:02:32
SPEAKER_01: but because they've had success in,
1:02:34
SPEAKER_01: inside the system,
1:02:36
SPEAKER_01: right?
1:02:36
SPEAKER_01: That they've made money,
1:02:37
SPEAKER_01: they've built businesses,
1:02:38
SPEAKER_01: they've maybe,
1:02:38
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:02:39
SPEAKER_01: sold them off or whatever.
1:02:40
They're not interested in the,
1:02:42
the aggressive,
1:02:44
you know,
1:02:44
kind of larky aesthetics.
1:02:46
SPEAKER_01: They want to find who are the practical people who are building.
1:02:50
SPEAKER_01: And so like, I think that's been,
1:02:53
SPEAKER_01: kind of a,
1:02:56
a part of my content is never to been get caught up in this
1:03:00
kind of like making
1:03:01
SPEAKER_01: enemies out of like other normal American people who,
1:03:05
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:03:05
SPEAKER_01: are just still figuring this out and whatnot.
1:03:07
SPEAKER_01: Like it's been to say, Hey, let's create like a positive vision.
1:03:12
SPEAKER_01: We don't have to like be antagonistic to the bad stuff.
1:03:15
SPEAKER_01: Let's create a positive vision that attracts people.
1:03:18
SPEAKER_01: That's about family and community and raising,
1:03:21
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:03:21
SPEAKER_01: good kids and building good structures and
1:03:24
SPEAKER_01: you know, prosperity and mutual benefit.
1:03:25
SPEAKER_01: And, and that is the thing that I think a lot of people can get around.
1:03:29
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:03:29
SPEAKER_01: And it brings like the good quality people around, right?
1:03:32
SPEAKER_01: Like the people who want to build something they don't want to get,
1:03:36
SPEAKER_01: like no one's,
1:03:37
no one who's smart is kind of celebrating the fact that we have
1:03:40
to do this.
1:03:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
1:03:43
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think,
1:03:44
SPEAKER_00: No, I agree.
1:03:45
SPEAKER_00: And I think, I mean, we're both doing in our own ways.
1:03:47
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:03:47
And I think one of the things I like that terminology you use,
1:03:51
like be the guy in the reality.
1:03:53
SPEAKER_00: And it's funny,
1:03:54
SPEAKER_00: it's like,
1:03:54
SPEAKER_00: I've always kind of in my life,
1:03:56
SPEAKER_00: I've kind of naturally been that position where it's like,
1:03:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm the one always pulling people together.
1:04:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm the one throwing parties, doing the events.
1:04:02
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
1:04:03
SPEAKER_00: It's just like a natural thing.
1:04:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, well, it's good.
1:04:06
SPEAKER_00: It's just who I am.
1:04:07
SPEAKER_00: And so
1:04:09
I think that like really,
1:04:10
that resonates me,
1:04:11
resonates me at a very deep level.
1:04:13
And I think the reality,
1:04:14
what you learn,
1:04:16
it's like how any,
1:04:18
anything is structured,
1:04:19
right?
1:04:19
SPEAKER_00: It's like, it's not mass amounts of people doing this.
1:04:21
SPEAKER_00: You got to find the people already doing it.
1:04:23
SPEAKER_00: It's a small,
1:04:24
SPEAKER_00: usually a small number of people,
1:04:25
SPEAKER_00: and then you got to kind of build it out underneath them.
1:04:29
SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to ask you one last question,
1:04:31
SPEAKER_00: then we can do a quick,
1:04:32
SPEAKER_00: we'll do a little rapid fire to wrap up.
1:04:37
SPEAKER_00: And this is more just for the audience to like understand,
1:04:40
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:04:41
SPEAKER_00: why focus on,
1:04:42
SPEAKER_00: you use the term fraternal networks and obviously you're,
1:04:45
SPEAKER_00: you're,
1:04:45
SPEAKER_00: you're working predominantly working with men.
1:04:48
SPEAKER_00: Why?
1:04:51
SPEAKER_00: Why the focus on men?
1:04:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:04:53
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
1:04:53
SPEAKER_01: it's,
1:04:54
SPEAKER_01: it's not so much that like,
1:04:56
SPEAKER_01: um,
1:04:57
SPEAKER_01: like I would,
1:04:57
SPEAKER_01: I would turn down,
1:04:58
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:04:59
SPEAKER_01: working with women or anything like that.
1:05:02
SPEAKER_01: It's just when I've,
1:05:04
like the people who just tend to be attracted to these kinds of
1:05:08
things,
1:05:08
right.
1:05:09
SPEAKER_01: Who, who, who want to do these kinds of things?
1:05:11
SPEAKER_01: Like I just, they're primarily guys.
1:05:16
SPEAKER_01: I also think that like,
1:05:19
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:05:19
SPEAKER_01: my experience is like,
1:05:21
I focus on truth so that you can be practical so that you can
1:05:25
get things done.
1:05:26
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:05:27
SPEAKER_01: And I think one of the,
1:05:28
SPEAKER_01: many lies of the mainstream delusion, right?
1:05:31
This kind of delusional utopianist consumerist kind of ideology
1:05:37
that gets pushed in
1:05:38
SPEAKER_01: the mainstream is that men and women are the same,
1:05:41
SPEAKER_01: right?
1:05:41
SPEAKER_01: It's just like, no, we're different.
1:05:42
SPEAKER_01: We have different proclivities and desires and stuff like that.
1:05:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
1:05:46
SPEAKER_01: a big part of this to me is that like,
1:05:50
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:05:51
SPEAKER_01: there's arguments online where it was just like last couple of days,
1:05:56
SPEAKER_01: especially there's,
1:05:56
SPEAKER_01: there's been a lot of these people being like,
1:05:58
SPEAKER_01: oh man,
1:05:59
SPEAKER_01: liberal white women are the worst,
1:06:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:06:01
SPEAKER_01: they're the bane of society and they're destroying everything.
1:06:03
SPEAKER_01: And I'm just like,
1:06:04
SPEAKER_01: why are you hating on like the women,
1:06:07
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:06:07
SPEAKER_01: the American women in your country?
1:06:09
Like you're being lied to that these people are,
1:06:13
that women are like the enemy.
1:06:14
SPEAKER_01: It's like,
1:06:16
SPEAKER_01: I think,
1:06:17
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:06:17
SPEAKER_01: my general take is that like,
1:06:20
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:06:22
SPEAKER_01: men need to be better leaders.
1:06:23
SPEAKER_01: And it's a difficult situation in the sense that like, I think,
1:06:28
A lot of men don't feel like they have the authority to be in a
1:06:31
leader,
1:06:31
you know?
1:06:32
SPEAKER_01: And,
1:06:33
SPEAKER_01: and,
1:06:33
SPEAKER_01: and so the kind of the response that I have to that is,
1:06:35
SPEAKER_01: well,
1:06:36
SPEAKER_01: you kind of have to exercise soft power.
1:06:38
SPEAKER_01: And this is like a big in recruiting.
1:06:40
SPEAKER_01: It's like, Ooh, you're working for a hiring manager.
1:06:42
You're not the hiring manager's boss,
1:06:43
but you need them to get to do things.
1:06:45
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:06:46
And so how can you do that in a way that you can kind of bring
1:06:50
them along?
1:06:50
SPEAKER_01: And I think like,
1:06:51
SPEAKER_01: that's kind of the,
1:06:52
the situation that we're in now is like redefining what healthy
1:06:55
leadership looks
1:06:56
SPEAKER_01: like.
1:06:56
you have servant leadership,
1:06:58
stewardship,
1:07:00
like healthy relationships and stuff like that.
1:07:02
SPEAKER_01: So like for me,
1:07:04
SPEAKER_01: the fraternal network stuff is just,
1:07:07
SPEAKER_01: it's kind of how things shake out to be is like,
1:07:08
SPEAKER_01: it is,
1:07:09
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:07:10
SPEAKER_01: like a,
1:07:10
SPEAKER_01: like a bunch of guys and it's a guy's club and it,
1:07:12
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:07:13
SPEAKER_01: yes,
1:07:14
SPEAKER_01: we're going to do the smoking to the cigars and we're,
1:07:16
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:07:16
SPEAKER_01: we're going to like,
1:07:16
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:07:17
SPEAKER_01: have the stakes and do all that kind of stuff.
1:07:18
SPEAKER_01: But you know,
1:07:19
SPEAKER_01: like if,
1:07:19
SPEAKER_01: if,
1:07:20
SPEAKER_01: if we have an application for,
1:07:21
SPEAKER_01: from a girl who's like,
1:07:23
SPEAKER_01: Hey,
1:07:23
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:07:23
SPEAKER_01: I really care about this and this is meaningful to me.
1:07:25
SPEAKER_01: And,
1:07:26
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:07:26
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:07:27
SPEAKER_01: especially like,
1:07:28
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:07:28
SPEAKER_01: she's a mother,
1:07:29
SPEAKER_01: like a lot of the guys in our group,
1:07:31
SPEAKER_01: probably 50,
1:07:32
SPEAKER_01: 50 have like families and kids and stuff like that.
1:07:34
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:07:35
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I meet a lot of great women who are like work hard.
1:07:40
SPEAKER_01: They're usually a little bit more on,
1:07:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
1:07:43
they're all kind of like naturally like to be a stuff or like
1:07:46
socializing or
1:07:46
SPEAKER_01: whatever.
1:07:47
SPEAKER_01: Like they have their domain that they're, they're doing that stuff.
1:07:50
And this is a little bit more like,
1:07:52
you know,
1:07:53
kind of that broader level focus stuff.
1:07:55
SPEAKER_01: But,
1:07:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
1:07:56
SPEAKER_01: so I guess,
1:07:57
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:07:57
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't be,
1:08:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:08:00
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't,
1:08:01
SPEAKER_01: it's not like intentionally,
1:08:02
SPEAKER_01: right?
1:08:03
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, nor is it gated by any other factor, we'll say.
1:08:08
SPEAKER_02: Sure, of course.
1:08:09
Like,
1:08:09
you know,
1:08:09
for me,
1:08:10
again,
1:08:10
it's about being practical and people who want to build.
1:08:16
SPEAKER_01: It ends up being that,
1:08:18
like fraternal networks seem to be kind of the best way to
1:08:22
characterize that.
1:08:23
SPEAKER_00: Cool.
1:08:23
SPEAKER_00: All right, ready for a little rapid fire?
1:08:27
SPEAKER_00: If you could rebuild one social institution from scratch, which one?
1:08:35
SPEAKER_01: I think everything comes down to education.
1:08:38
SPEAKER_01: So it would probably be the education system.
1:08:40
I'll elaborate a little bit quicker on that by saying that when
1:08:45
I started writing
1:08:47
SPEAKER_01: stuff before the MetaPrime project,
1:08:49
SPEAKER_01: a lot of that was running into the online
1:08:53
SPEAKER_01: business or being in the business world,
1:08:56
SPEAKER_01: there was a lot of things that I started to learn that I was like,
1:08:58
SPEAKER_01: there's a much,
1:08:59
SPEAKER_01: like no one ever told me this.
1:09:00
Like the first step of solving a problem is understanding the
1:09:03
problem,
1:09:04
right?
1:09:04
Like no one sat me down and like really drilled that concept in
1:09:07
a very simplistic,
1:09:08
SPEAKER_01: easy way into my head or stuff like,
1:09:11
SPEAKER_01: Hey,
1:09:11
SPEAKER_01: sometimes when you're considering a problem,
1:09:13
SPEAKER_01: you need to consider,
1:09:15
SPEAKER_01: is this even the problem that I should be solving?
1:09:17
SPEAKER_01: So I call these meta theories, meta strategies, right?
1:09:21
SPEAKER_01: And it's like,
1:09:22
SPEAKER_01: why don't we have that as kind of like,
1:09:25
SPEAKER_01: why don't we just have like a baseline of all the most basic,
1:09:27
SPEAKER_01: simple,
1:09:28
SPEAKER_01: straightforward things that are broadly practical?
1:09:31
So I think things like that would be immensely helpful and
1:09:34
education would be my answer there.
1:09:36
SPEAKER_00: Most misunderstood idea in your writing?
1:09:42
That's tough because I feel like a lot of the people who read
1:09:45
my stuff kind of already get it.
1:09:47
SPEAKER_01: They're looking for a way to define it.
1:09:49
SPEAKER_01: I'd say if there's any one thing that
1:09:54
SPEAKER_01: I do have like one good mutual,
1:09:56
SPEAKER_01: this guy,
1:09:57
SPEAKER_01: Yukimaru,
1:09:58
SPEAKER_01: and he's doing some interesting stuff himself,
1:10:00
SPEAKER_01: but he argues with me on this dimension of like,
1:10:03
he thinks online fraternal networks are the end all be all and
1:10:06
no one should do
1:10:07
SPEAKER_01: anything else.
1:10:09
So we talk a little bit about like the value of people doing a
1:10:14
range of different
1:10:15
SPEAKER_01: things and,
1:10:16
SPEAKER_01: and,
1:10:17
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:10:17
SPEAKER_01: prioritizing and exclusivity.
1:10:18
SPEAKER_01: So I think it's,
1:10:20
SPEAKER_01: if anything,
1:10:20
the thing that people argue the most about when it comes to my
1:10:23
writing is more of
1:10:24
SPEAKER_01: like,
1:10:25
SPEAKER_01: the nuance.
1:10:26
SPEAKER_01: And I'm much more of like a generalist,
1:10:28
SPEAKER_01: give people tools,
1:10:29
SPEAKER_01: encourage them to do a range of things where there,
1:10:31
SPEAKER_01: if there is a pushback,
1:10:32
SPEAKER_01: it's usually like this specific thing is actually the best.
1:10:36
SPEAKER_01: And we need to encourage everyone to do that.
1:10:39
SPEAKER_00: Strongest sign someone has healthy social structure in their life.
1:10:42
SPEAKER_01: So,
1:10:45
SPEAKER_01: All right.
1:10:46
SPEAKER_01: So there's a little weird, uh, that I watched this movie.
1:10:50
That's like an old early 2000 movies called,
1:10:52
uh,
1:10:53
how to lose a guy in 10 days.
1:10:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:10:54
SPEAKER_01: Matthew McConaughey.
1:10:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:10:56
SPEAKER_01: Everyone's seen this.
1:10:57
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like a chick, you know, a chick flick classic, whatever.
1:11:00
SPEAKER_01: And I forget exactly why I was like,
1:11:03
somebody had mentioned it and I was like browsing Netflix and I
1:11:06
was kind of bored
1:11:06
SPEAKER_01: one night.
1:11:06
SPEAKER_01: So I ended up watching it.
1:11:08
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:11:08
And like,
1:11:09
yeah,
1:11:09
it's just cliche and it's got some,
1:11:11
you know,
1:11:11
the normal things,
1:11:12
but,
1:11:13
The reason I bring it up is like the scene in which she
1:11:16
actually falls for him.
1:11:18
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:11:18
SPEAKER_01: Is he takes her to go visit his family and you know,
1:11:22
SPEAKER_01: he walks in and you know,
1:11:24
SPEAKER_01: the house is alive.
1:11:25
It's like his sister and her husband are there and their kids
1:11:29
are running around
1:11:30
SPEAKER_01: and he has a great relationship with like his parents and you know,
1:11:34
and they're like out having fun and they're like a cohesive
1:11:37
family and they have
1:11:38
SPEAKER_01: all these inside jokes and you know,
1:11:40
SPEAKER_01: he's clearly like,
1:11:41
SPEAKER_01: loved by the families, taking care of the kids.
1:11:45
SPEAKER_01: For me, it's that idea of social proof.
1:11:49
If you go and you meet someone or you're hanging out with
1:11:52
someone in a community
1:11:54
SPEAKER_01: and the people around them,
1:11:55
SPEAKER_01: the people in their life,
1:11:57
SPEAKER_01: see them as someone that they love,
1:11:59
SPEAKER_01: they interact with,
1:12:00
SPEAKER_01: they have these good relationships.
1:12:03
SPEAKER_01: To me, that's the thing.
1:12:05
SPEAKER_01: Who are the friends around you?
1:12:06
SPEAKER_01: How do you relate to them?
1:12:08
SPEAKER_01: How do they relate to you?
1:12:09
SPEAKER_01: If that cohesion is strong, I think that everyone finds that admirable.
1:12:16
SPEAKER_00: One historical figure who deeply understood social structure.
1:12:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh, man.
1:12:22
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
1:12:23
SPEAKER_01: this is a little bit tough for me because I'm not a read old books,
1:12:28
SPEAKER_01: look up to historical figures kind of guy.
1:12:31
SPEAKER_00: Or someone that just influenced your work?
1:12:32
Someone that just really influenced you and other people that
1:12:34
you read or something?
1:12:36
So when I was in college,
1:12:37
I studied network sociology,
1:12:39
which was like a rising field.
1:12:41
I was right around the time Facebook was getting big and all
1:12:43
this kind of stuff.
1:12:44
SPEAKER_01: And so I was really interested in that.
1:12:45
SPEAKER_01: There's this whole prisoner's dilemma thing.
1:12:47
SPEAKER_01: And I really love that stuff.
1:12:48
SPEAKER_01: I completely go off on it.
1:12:50
But the main professor who was writing and kind of coined the
1:12:55
term network
1:12:56
SPEAKER_01: sociology was this guy,
1:12:57
SPEAKER_01: Duncan Watts from the University of Columbia.
1:12:59
SPEAKER_01: He wrote like,
1:13:00
SPEAKER_01: the five degrees,
1:13:01
SPEAKER_01: he wrote like the second version of five degrees of separation,
1:13:04
SPEAKER_01: but his paper,
1:13:06
which he published with a few other guys was called the
1:13:10
strength of weak tide,
1:13:11
SPEAKER_01: the most cited paper in all of academia by like a factor of three,
1:13:15
SPEAKER_01: like over Einstein or anyone else.
1:13:17
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:13:17
SPEAKER_01: It's a huge, huge paper.
1:13:19
SPEAKER_01: But for whatever reason, I kind of like got into his stuff.
1:13:22
SPEAKER_01: And it seemed like Robert Putnam's bowling alone.
1:13:24
SPEAKER_01: Like, so if there's anyone who kind of influenced me,
1:13:30
early on like maybe maybe it was actually duncan watch which is
1:13:32
like a weird thing
1:13:33
to say he's just like very like you know corner case dude but
1:13:37
yeah if you're if
1:13:37
anyone's ever interested in kind of learning about the science
1:13:40
of network sociology
1:13:41
like networks like duncan watts has some really good stuff cool
1:13:44
finish this
1:13:45
sentence america will be strong again when we rebuild the
1:13:51
social fabric where can
1:13:52
people find it yeah how can they reach out yeah so i'm on x
1:13:55
there's meta prime zero
1:13:56
SPEAKER_01: zero one
1:13:59
SPEAKER_01: I'll post a lot about the networking stuff and people will reply.
1:14:02
SPEAKER_01: And that's always great.
1:14:03
SPEAKER_01: So DMs are open,
1:14:06
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:14:06
SPEAKER_01: go find me,
1:14:06
SPEAKER_01: follow me on X.
1:14:07
SPEAKER_01: If you,
1:14:07
SPEAKER_01: if that's kind of your jam,
1:14:09
SPEAKER_01: I have the sub stack.
1:14:11
SPEAKER_01: It's the same thing.
1:14:11
SPEAKER_01: Metaprime 001.
1:14:13
SPEAKER_01: And I have a website, metaprime001.com.
1:14:16
SPEAKER_01: And so we've got an application form there.
1:14:18
If you're interested in joining the Metaprime network or the
1:14:21
meta network,
1:14:24
SPEAKER_01: fill out the application,
1:14:25
SPEAKER_01: send it over.
1:14:25
SPEAKER_01: We just do like,
1:14:27
call and just kind of chat about what people are doing what
1:14:29
they're interested in
1:14:31
and yeah and then we do have a i have a youtube but like you
1:14:35
know all the podcasts
1:14:37
go up through Substack i think it also pushes spotify and all
1:14:40
the normal servers the
1:14:42
the metacast is the is the podcast so but yeah x is where i
1:14:46
hang out the and then
1:14:48
SPEAKER_01: the website has everything up
1:14:50
SPEAKER_01: Great.
1:14:51
SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks, my man.
1:14:52
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
1:14:53
SPEAKER_00: Happy New Year once again.
1:14:55
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I look forward to it.
1:14:56
Maybe we'll do another one after the next article comes out
1:14:58
because I think
1:14:59
SPEAKER_00: there'll be a lot of stuff to dive in there.
1:15:02
SPEAKER_01: No, this is an absolute blast.
1:15:04
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for bringing me on.
1:15:05
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's exciting to hear about what you're doing as well.
1:15:07
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, look forward to it.
1:15:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure this will not be the last time we're collaborating on stuff.
1:15:12
SPEAKER_00: Cool.
1:15:12
SPEAKER_00: Thanks, man.
1:15:14
SPEAKER_00: Hey, my friends, Jordan here.
1:15:15
SPEAKER_00: First and foremost,
1:15:16
SPEAKER_00: a sincere thank you and appreciation for all of our early listeners,
1:15:20
SPEAKER_00: readers,
1:15:20
SPEAKER_00: and supporters at Going Direct.
1:15:22
It's really what keeps me going to do this each and every week
1:15:24
because there's
1:15:25
clearly a community of folks out there looking to build a Going
1:15:28
Direct economy,
1:15:29
SPEAKER_00: which gets me super excited.
1:15:31
SPEAKER_00: Secondly, if you haven't subscribed, please do so.
1:15:33
SPEAKER_00: Our main channel and community is forming over on Substack.
1:15:37
SPEAKER_00: The link is in the show notes below.
1:15:39
And we'll also be putting out our weekly conversations at
1:15:41
YouTube,
1:15:42
Spotify,
1:15:43
and Apple Podcasts.
1:15:44
SPEAKER_00: I hope you all have a great day and remember to go direct.