Latest / The Book Deal / Middle Grade Debut Special with Shara Curlett, Sandy Bigna and Lucie Stevens

Transcript

Middle Grade Debut Special with Shara Curlett, Sandy Bigna and Lucie Stevens · The Book Deal

• 0:09
  Tina Strachan: This is the Book Deal podcast
• 0:11
  Madeleine Cleary: where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
• 0:15
  Natasha Rai: We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.
• 0:25
  Tina Strachan: So no matter what's.
• 0:26
  Tina Strachan: Stage of writing your at.
• 0:28
  Tina Strachan: We've got you covered.
• 0:29
  Tina Strachan: I'm Tina Strachan.
• 0:30
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm Madeline Cleary.
• 0:32
  Natasha Rai: And I'm Natasha Rai.
• 0:34
  Tina Strachan: And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors
• 0:37
  Madeleine Cleary: one deal at a time.
• 0:43
  Madeleine Cleary: The book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners, the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:56
  Tina Strachan: Welcome everybody to this very special episode of the book Deal podcast, where we have not one but three guests on the show today.
• 1:04
  Tina Strachan: Um, so it could go completely pear shaped, but we'll see how we go because, um, I'm sure we have lots to share and it's, but it's gonna be lots of fun.
• 1:11
  Tina Strachan: So, uh, because this week's app is a middle grade debut author special, so I'm really excited to introduce Lucie Stevens
• 1:21
  Lucie Stevens: Hi.
• 1:23
  Lucie Stevens: So excited to be here.
• 1:25
  Tina Strachan: So excited to have you.
• 1:27
  Tina Strachan: Um, and Shara Curlett
• 1:29
  Shara Curlett: Hi.
• 1:30
  Shara Curlett: Thank you so much for having me away from New Zealand.
• 1:33
  Tina Strachan: anytime.
• 1:34
  Tina Strachan: Uh, and Sandy Bigna,
• 1:36
  Sandy Bigna: Hi.
• 1:36
  Sandy Bigna: Lovely to be here.
• 1:38
  Tina Strachan: And you're right, we are from all over Australia at the moment.
• 1:42
  Tina Strachan: Shara, you are normally in New Zealand, but yet you are, um, in our wonderful, uh, land at the moment.
• 1:48
  Tina Strachan: So can you tell us where, where are you at the moment, SHA Are you still in Brisbane?
• 1:52
  Shara Curlett: Yes.
• 1:52
  Shara Curlett: Yeah, I've just been, um, at the conference for CYA or see ya, and I'm still at the hotel and then I fly out to Sydney this afternoon.
• 2:03
  Shara Curlett: So.
• 2:03
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 2:04
  Tina Strachan: And, and you have to leave very shortly.
• 2:06
  Tina Strachan: So, and then you've been in Sydney for a bit and then popping home, um, which is very exciting.
• 2:11
  Tina Strachan: And Sandy, where are you?
• 2:13
  Sandy Bigna: So I'm in Canberra, which is freezing.
• 2:16
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, right.
• 2:16
  Sandy Bigna: So jealous of everyone who lives up north.
• 2:20
  Sandy Bigna: It's very cold.
• 2:21
  Tina Strachan: it is pretty sunny and lovely up here in Queensland on the Gold Coast.
• 2:25
  Tina Strachan: Um, and Lucie, where are you?
• 2:28
  Lucie Stevens: I'm in Sydney and it's a beautiful sunny wind Today here, actually the perfect kind of temperature for me.
• 2:33
  Lucie Stevens: I love cold, but sunny, that's my favorite.
• 2:35
  Lucie Stevens: So I'm very happy with the weather at the moment.
• 2:39
  Tina Strachan: Awesome.
• 2:40
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 2:41
  Tina Strachan: So, um, this is gonna be a really exciting episode for all our listeners, especially those that are writing middle grade, um, or writing any kind of kid lit and maybe wanting to venture into middle ga, middle grade, um, and wanting to know, you know, how to get published or, and how to write because you're all actually writing quite different genres, don't you, and different styles.
• 3:02
  Tina Strachan: So that's really interesting and something I'd love to, um, chat to you about.
• 3:06
  Tina Strachan: But first off, ladies, congratulations on your debut books Releasing Into the World this year.
• 3:11
  Tina Strachan: It's very exciting.
• 3:13
  Tina Strachan: Um, we always love to ask authors and put'em on the spot, um, for their one-liners or their pictures for their books because it's something that we all have to learn how to do as a sparring, authors and debut authors.
• 3:26
  Tina Strachan: You know, how to give that cracking one liner or, or your pitch elevator pitch.
• 3:31
  Tina Strachan: Um, so I am going to put you on the spot and start with you first.
• 3:36
  Tina Strachan: Lucie.
• 3:37
  Tina Strachan: Uh, you are, you are quite familiar with the publishing industry as an, as well as a editor and a freelance writer in the past, aren't you?
• 3:44
  Tina Strachan: But this is your first published
• 3:45
  Lucie Stevens: I am,
• 3:46
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 3:47
  Lucie Stevens: this is my first published novel, so actually I'm a bit cheeky.
• 3:50
  Lucie Stevens: I steal my one-liner from James Foley, who is one of my wonderful endorsers, and I really think he said it best.
• 3:57
  Lucie Stevens: He said that my novel is Mary Poppins, by way of Tim Burton, which I think actually articulates it beautifully.
• 4:04
  Lucie Stevens: So thank you, James Foley.
• 4:06
  Lucie Stevens: Um, but yeah, I could tell you a little bit more about the story if you'd like, but that's my one
• 4:10
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, it's great.
• 4:11
  Tina Strachan: One liner, please tell us more.
• 4:13
  Lucie Stevens: so RAP Nanny Tobins is a spooky middle grade adventure fantasy story set in London in 1851.
• 4:22
  Lucie Stevens: And it's about a girl called Albert Albertine, who's much beloved governess Nanny Tobins dies unexpectedly in a horse riding accident, but she's very, very dedicated to her job.
• 4:32
  Lucie Stevens: So she returns to the nursery each night at midnight to continue her duties.
• 4:37
  Lucie Stevens: But unfortunately having a ghost for a ES causes all kinds of chaos in the household, and none of the grownups believe Al Albertine when she says Nanny Tobins has returned.
• 4:46
  Lucie Stevens: So she realizes fairly quickly that if she doesn't find a way to lay the ghost of her Es to rest, some terrible consequences are coming her way.
• 4:55
  Tina Strachan: It's such a amazing book, Lucie, and such a, um, unique plot, isn't it?
• 5:01
  Tina Strachan: Unique idea and I love it.
• 5:03
  Tina Strachan: I love what you said about, um, stealing the blurb or the one liner from someone else.
• 5:07
  Tina Strachan: 'cause Yes, I'm the same since I've, my book's been out and other people have reviewed it, I'm like, wow, you actually made that sound so much better.
• 5:14
  Tina Strachan: Much better.
• 5:15
  Tina Strachan: So
• 5:15
  Lucie Stevens: Yeah, it makes it easier.
• 5:16
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, maybe I'll start stealing this as well.
• 5:19
  Tina Strachan: But, um, congratulations.
• 5:21
  Tina Strachan: Um, and Sandy, you are involved, you've been involved in the Kid Lit World for a while now too, haven't you?
• 5:26
  Tina Strachan: As a blogger of Australian Kid Lit and a big supporter of, uh, Australian Kid Lit, can you, yeah.
• 5:34
  Tina Strachan: can you, introduce us to your debut novel?
• 5:37
  Sandy Bigna: yeah.
• 5:38
  Sandy Bigna: So, um, as you said, I've been reviewing, um, kids' books on Instagram for a while and, um, yeah, my debut novel is a verse novel and it's about a girl called Bones.
• 5:50
  Sandy Bigna: She's 11 years old, also slightly spooky.
• 5:53
  Sandy Bigna: Um, bones is a bit lonely and she likes to collect animal bones and other discarded treasures, and she sketches them.
• 6:01
  Sandy Bigna: And then one day she accidentally brings to life the skeleton of a small bird.
• 6:07
  Sandy Bigna: Um, but as it turns out, bird doesn't actually want to be resurrected, and he asks bones to reverse the accidental curse that she's put on him.
• 6:17
  Sandy Bigna: So Bones needs to figure out the secrets of the magic and then also see if she can sum it up, the courage to say goodbye.
• 6:24
  Sandy Bigna: So yeah, I think like Lucie's book, it is, it's a little bit quirky, a little bit, um, spooky and there's sort of themes of, uh, friendship and hope, um, as well.
• 6:36
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 6:36
  Tina Strachan: I love that.
• 6:37
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, you're right.
• 6:37
  Tina Strachan: It's another unique storyline that I love and the verse, it's first verse novel.
• 6:42
  Sandy Bigna: Yeah.
• 6:42
  Sandy Bigna: So it's written inverse.
• 6:44
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 6:45
  Tina Strachan: Can you tell us a little bit about verse novel, or for people who don't understand what Verse novel is, or maybe wanting to write in that?
• 6:52
  Sandy Bigna: Yeah, so, um, verse novels, they follow a standard narrative arc, so they've got the same sort of plot and characters, um, but it's just written in verse instead of, instead of your standard narrative prose.
• 7:05
  Sandy Bigna: So, um, you know, I think a lot of people think it's like poetry and it rhymes and that they're sort of standalone verses and they are standalone verses.
• 7:13
  Sandy Bigna: But, um, they do follow that sort of standard narrative arc as well.
• 7:18
  Sandy Bigna: And, and I suppose it's, they're a bit more succinct.
• 7:21
  Sandy Bigna: Um, you've really gotta get to the heart of the story and to choose your words very carefully.
• 7:27
  Sandy Bigna: So there's lots of white space, um, around the words and really good for reluctant readers.
• 7:32
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 7:33
  Tina Strachan: And how many words normally is a middle grade verse?
• 7:35
  Tina Strachan: Is there rules around that?
• 7:36
  Sandy Bigna: Um, there are,'cause when I first wrote it, it was way too long.
• 7:39
  Sandy Bigna: It was about.
• 7:40
  Sandy Bigna: 33,000 words.
• 7:42
  Sandy Bigna: And then I was encouraged to cut about 15,000 words.
• 7:46
  Sandy Bigna: So, um, got it down to about 22,000 words.
• 7:49
  Sandy Bigna: So ideally between 20 and 22,000 words, which is an advantage, right?
• 7:54
  Sandy Bigna: Because they're shorter to write, hardly recommend it.
• 7:58
  Tina Strachan: But there's lots of illustrations in yours too, isn't
• 8:01
  Sandy Bigna: They're are some beautiful illustrations by Yeah, gorgeous, uh, line drawings, which takes up a bit of, uh, space as well in the book.
• 8:09
  Sandy Bigna: So it looks quite a thick book, but it's actually very quick to read.
• 8:12
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 8:13
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 8:13
  Tina Strachan: No, it's incredible.
• 8:14
  Tina Strachan: So, um, Shara, Can you please give us, uh, your one-liner and your pitch and tell us a little bit about your debut book?
• 8:24
  Shara Curlett: All right.
• 8:25
  Shara Curlett: Thank you so much for having me, Tina.
• 8:27
  Shara Curlett: It's so great being on the podcast.
• 8:28
  Shara Curlett: I've listened to it for a very long time, ever since you started, and you and Madeline are doing a wonderful job.
• 8:34
  Shara Curlett: Um, so welcome to Miracle is about an 11-year-old girl who is cursed by chaos and can never go to a magical island nearby.
• 8:44
  Shara Curlett: Uh, that basically gives visitors magic for 24 hours.
• 8:49
  Shara Curlett: So when she's invited to go, she suspects that there is more to it.
• 8:55
  Shara Curlett: So I.
• 8:56
  Shara Curlett: It's, it's basically a supercharged, magical adventure.
• 8:59
  Shara Curlett: It's fast paced.
• 9:01
  Shara Curlett: Um, and the inspiration came from what if Charlie and the chocolate factory was a magical island instead?
• 9:08
  Tina Strachan: I love that.
• 9:09
  Tina Strachan: That's so good.
• 9:10
  Tina Strachan: Great Comp ti uh, like a great comp title.
• 9:12
  Tina Strachan: Title as well, which is really important.
• 9:14
  Tina Strachan: And I just love that Curse by Chaos thing.
• 9:17
  Tina Strachan: It's great.
• 9:17
  Tina Strachan: Such a good hook.
• 9:18
  Tina Strachan: Such a good hook, and an an incredible book as well.
• 9:21
  Tina Strachan: So here on the book deal podcast, we love hearing, well, mostly I love hearing about, um, publication journeys.
• 9:28
  Tina Strachan: I just, this is one of the reasons why we started the podcast'cause we just, I just can't get enough of here Publica publication journeys, um,'cause they're so different.
• 9:36
  Tina Strachan: Everybody has a completely different story.
• 9:39
  Tina Strachan: They're very unique and it's important for people who are listening to the pod.
• 9:43
  Tina Strachan: 'cause we have lots of listeners who are aspiring authors and I just really wanna know how to get there and how do I, how do I get my books published and you know, what are the steps?
• 9:53
  Tina Strachan: And you know, I guess there's a few things that are common for everybody.
• 9:56
  Tina Strachan: And I mean, getting, actually putting your work out there is probably the number one step that we all take.
• 10:02
  Tina Strachan: But.
• 10:03
  Tina Strachan: Everybody just, it's just a different path and we just have to forge our own pathway forward.
• 10:08
  Tina Strachan: So, um, but before I get into that, can someone, um, just explain for people who are listening, what middle grade is, uh, some sort of, you know, some rules around that because some people don't understand what middle grade is.
• 10:21
  Tina Strachan: Who wants to jump in?
• 10:24
  Lucie Stevens: I feel like Sandy would probably be the best person to represent the Kid Lit community here, if you're okay with that,
• 10:30
  Sandy Bigna: Yeah, yeah, no, that's fine.
• 10:32
  Sandy Bigna: Um, I think the issue with middle grade is I think there's lower middle grade and upper middle grade.
• 10:38
  Sandy Bigna: So the general rule is, um, sort of between, I'd say eight to 12 years old, categorize as middle grade.
• 10:47
  Sandy Bigna: But I think within that space there's also your lower middle grade, sort of maybe for eight to nine year olds or eight to 10 year olds.
• 10:57
  Sandy Bigna: And then you've got your upper middle grade, which can actually extend up to 13, uh, years old as well.
• 11:03
  Sandy Bigna: So, but I think generally speaking, I'm sitting on the shelves, it would be, uh, eight, eight to 12 I think.
• 11:10
  Sandy Bigna: Does everyone think that sounds accurate?
• 11:13
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, it's usually what they market it as, isn't it?
• 11:16
  Tina Strachan: And I mean, but also regardless of what they market it as, it's what the reader feels comfortable reading or what the parent who's buying the book feels as suitable for their child, right?
• 11:24
  Tina Strachan: So they could be young and reading up just'cause they're very clever at it.
• 11:28
  Tina Strachan: But also older kids can be reading middle grade because that's the level that they're at and that's what they're comfortable with.
• 11:34
  Tina Strachan: And it doesn't matter as long as they're reading, isn't it?
• 11:37
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah.
• 11:38
  Tina Strachan: And what about the length, um, Shara, do you have some comments on like what the length of those book, of what a middle grade book usually is?
• 11:44
  Tina Strachan: And it sometimes depends on genre, doesn't it?
• 11:47
  Shara Curlett: It does.
• 11:48
  Shara Curlett: And I think it's in flux at the moment, I think because readers, uh, it's hard to grab their attention and if it's not fast paced, it's easy to lose them.
• 11:57
  Shara Curlett: Um, so I think as a standard, 40 to 50,000 words, 60,000 words at the max, um, I write fantasy, which has a little bit more leeway, um, in saying that I, I can see publishers moving towards the 20,000 middle grade space because all, all we want to do is get kids reading and if, if long books are not capturing all of them, perhaps shorter books will, I think there's, there's room to be creative.
• 12:27
  Shara Curlett: I, I personally think, but yeah, 50, I'd say 50,000 is the standard, but I think watch the space.
• 12:33
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 12:34
  Tina Strachan: And what about, um, the content, Lucie?
• 12:37
  Tina Strachan: Have you found that there's any rules sort of around like character ages and what can and can't be written into a middle grade?
• 12:46
  Lucie Stevens: Yeah, definitely.
• 12:47
  Lucie Stevens: I mean, I think most of the middle grade books are about friendship, family, courage, resilience, these kinds of themes, which personally, I think are universal themes that are applicable to everybody at every age.
• 13:01
  Lucie Stevens: And I think that's why a lot of older readers and adults also can enjoy middle grade fiction because these, these are resonant themes through our whole journey of life.
• 13:11
  Lucie Stevens: Right.
• 13:12
  Lucie Stevens: So, um, and age-wise.
• 13:16
  Lucie Stevens: So I did a master's in writing for children and young adults over in Manchester, um, a few years ago.
• 13:22
  Lucie Stevens: And they told us that the rule of thumb was that your protagonist should be ideally two years older than your intended reader.
• 13:30
  Lucie Stevens: Um, and that's actually a rule that I have defied in my novel for strategic reasons, but that's, that's what we were taught.
• 13:38
  Lucie Stevens: Um, but I think, you know, there's always exceptions to the rule.
• 13:40
  Lucie Stevens: I think what's what's important is if it's, it's done deliberately, not just sort of random.
• 13:46
  Lucie Stevens: Like I think if you wanna defy a convention, you have to have a reason behind it.
• 13:51
  Lucie Stevens: But yeah, I think generally, um, it's good if kids are reading about a character that's a little bit older than them.
• 13:58
  Lucie Stevens: So it's a little bit sort of aspirational in a way.
• 14:01
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 14:02
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 14:02
  Tina Strachan: And also I think sometimes there's, um, a note, not really any romance in middle grade is there, like you tend to stay away from that.
• 14:10
  Tina Strachan: Um, and yeah, like you said, there's still that sort of message at the core, but you don't wanna be obvious about it.
• 14:16
  Tina Strachan: A all like, I think in junior fiction you can be a little bit more, um, straightforward with your, with the, your message at the end, you know that, you know, the characters learned their lesson and things like that.
• 14:26
  Tina Strachan: But in middle grade, like you, they, you just can't be obvious with that.
• 14:30
  Tina Strachan: I think, hey, you've gotta sort of weave it in there a little bit better, but still sort still have it, if that makes sense.
• 14:37
  Lucie Stevens: Yeah, definitely
• 14:38
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 14:39
  Tina Strachan: Kids don't like being taught, especially not through their books.
• 14:42
  Tina Strachan: Right.
• 14:44
  Tina Strachan: Um, okay, cool.
• 14:45
  Tina Strachan: All right, so publication journeys.
• 14:47
  Tina Strachan: Uh, Sandy, I'm gonna start with you.
• 14:49
  Tina Strachan: Can you please tell us, even back from when you first started writing, how did you start writing and, and what started, um, you on that journey, and then how did you actually get to signing on the dotted line of that elusive book deal?
• 15:01
  Sandy Bigna: Yeah, well, it goes way back for me because I was that kid that sort of grew up reading and writing from a really early age, and I was really lucky to be surrounded by books and reading.
• 15:12
  Sandy Bigna: Um, my siblings wrote and we read our stories aloud to each other.
• 15:17
  Sandy Bigna: Um, so when I was about six, I think I thought I'd become a published author, probably by the ripe old age of 18.
• 15:25
  Sandy Bigna: Sadly, that did not happen.
• 15:27
  Sandy Bigna: Um, the, the pathway to publication was a lot bumpier and a lot longer than that.
• 15:33
  Sandy Bigna: Um, along the way I, um, had lots of.
• 15:37
  Sandy Bigna: Sort of writing highs and lows.
• 15:39
  Sandy Bigna: Um, I went on to study some creative writing at University of Canberra, and then I went on to work as a children's librarian for a while and that actually reignited my love of, uh, children's books.
• 15:54
  Sandy Bigna: Um, and I sort of thought, ah, yeah, I actually wouldn't mind, you know, I was writing at university.
• 16:01
  Sandy Bigna: I think I was writing more sort of literary fiction and, and stories for adults.
• 16:06
  Sandy Bigna: Uh, mostly short stories.
• 16:07
  Sandy Bigna: And then I, um, you know, reading the books to the children in the libraries, it sort of reignited my passion for children's books.
• 16:15
  Sandy Bigna: Um, so I did submit, um, to publishers, lots of rejections.
• 16:22
  Sandy Bigna: Um, and, and then I think, you know, I had three children sort of two years apart and that I think that really diverted some of my creative energy for a while, like.
• 16:35
  Sandy Bigna: We can probably relate to that.
• 16:37
  Sandy Bigna: Um, that it just, you know, let's face it, kind of exhausting.
• 16:42
  Sandy Bigna: Um, so I was still, you know, I was still, uh, attending workshops where I could, um, some online, some in person and daydreaming of ideas.
• 16:52
  Sandy Bigna: Um, then, uh, as the, as the kids got a little bit older, that creative energy came back to me.
• 16:59
  Sandy Bigna: And, um, like I said before, I think it was, it was about 2020 when I discovered the Bookstagram community on Instagram.
• 17:09
  Sandy Bigna: And I was like, oh, here's this space where people are reviewing books, chatting about books.
• 17:15
  Sandy Bigna: And I thought I could do that.
• 17:16
  Sandy Bigna: You know, I'd, I'd love to review children's books.
• 17:19
  Sandy Bigna: Um, so I set up my own platform and started connecting with other creatives and, um, I was meeting children's authors and illustrators, publishers were sending me books to review.
• 17:34
  Sandy Bigna: And I was, you know, making these connections and really loving what I was doing.
• 17:38
  Sandy Bigna: Um, I, I was still writing, but not submitting as much.
• 17:43
  Sandy Bigna: But then in 2022, I think it was, I thought, okay, now I've gotta get serious.
• 17:50
  Sandy Bigna: If I wanna get something published myself, I've actually gotta carve out the time and, um, think of myself as a writer, not just, um, you know, loved reviewing, um, other people's books, but I really wanted to be, be an author myself.
• 18:06
  Sandy Bigna: So that's when I sat down to start focus on writing, um, little Bones, which had been swirling around in my head in various formats over the years.
• 18:16
  Sandy Bigna: But, um, when I started writing it, it just wasn't working.
• 18:21
  Sandy Bigna: It was, um, the narrator was different to Bones.
• 18:25
  Sandy Bigna: It was a, um, it was a girl originally who could see animal ghosts, so similar but not quite, not quite working.
• 18:33
  Sandy Bigna: Um, it wasn't a verse novel, it was just, um, standard prose and it just, you know, it didn't have that magic vibe.
• 18:41
  Sandy Bigna: Um, but then at some point it just, this strong visual image came to me of this girl.
• 18:47
  Sandy Bigna: She was dressed all in dark clothes and she was digging down, um, near water with a stick.
• 18:55
  Sandy Bigna: And immediately I knew that this girl was lonely, that she'd lost something, and that she was digging for animal bones, which.
• 19:03
  Sandy Bigna: Seems very random, but I think I've always had this kind of quirky obsession with, I don't know, like Halloween spooky stories.
• 19:15
  Sandy Bigna: was inevitable.
• 19:15
  Sandy Bigna: There was gonna be some sort of talking skeleton in my first book.
• 19:19
  Sandy Bigna: Um, so once I had nailed her voice and then, um, the format, because her story would only be told as a verse novel.
• 19:30
  Sandy Bigna: It wasn't really a conscious decision to write it as a verse novel.
• 19:34
  Sandy Bigna: Um, it just, that's just the way it came out.
• 19:38
  Sandy Bigna: That's when I was like, okay, this feels right, this, I had that, um, excitement get when you, you feel like you've nailed it.
• 19:47
  Sandy Bigna: Um, so I'd connected with, uh, Julianne Grasso on Instagram who hosts the middle grade Mavens podcast, and she was doing pitch assessments and so I sent.
• 20:03
  Sandy Bigna: My pitch in the first few pages of the manuscript, she was really enthusiastic and she encouraged me to keep pushing through and finish it ahead of the Kid Vic Conference.
• 20:13
  Sandy Bigna: Um, which was happening in, um, I think it was April, 2023.
• 20:17
  Sandy Bigna: So she said, just push through, get a finish manuscript.
• 20:21
  Sandy Bigna: So I largely wrote the manuscript, the rest of the manuscript over the summer of 20 22, 20 23, completely ignored my kids, locked myself in a room you can entertain yourselves.
• 20:34
  Sandy Bigna: Um, and that, and then had the manuscript written and booked an in-person assessment with, uh, Danielle Binks, who was literally my dream agent.
• 20:45
  Sandy Bigna: And she got back to me before the conference and said, oh, you know, I really like this manuscript.
• 20:54
  Sandy Bigna: Can you send me the full thing?
• 20:56
  Sandy Bigna: I was trying not to get my hopes up as you do, you know, and you've had lots of rejections.
• 21:00
  Sandy Bigna: I was like, yeah, that's, you know, just, just be cool.
• 21:03
  Sandy Bigna: Like, she's probably just wants to, you know, read it and gimme some feedback.
• 21:07
  Sandy Bigna: Um, so I went down to the conference, had a chat with Danielle and we were just talking.
• 21:12
  Sandy Bigna: She was lovely.
• 21:12
  Sandy Bigna: And then, um, halfway through she said, yeah, you know what?
• 21:16
  Sandy Bigna: I really love this manuscript and I wanna offer you representation.
• 21:20
  Sandy Bigna: And I was just like,
• 21:21
  Tina Strachan: That's the dream story,
• 21:23
  Sandy Bigna: It was, yeah, I was just, it was so unexpected.
• 21:27
  Sandy Bigna: Uh, you know,'cause you try and keep your hopes very
• 21:30
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 21:30
  Tina Strachan: You do.
• 21:30
  Tina Strachan: You try and keep them.
• 21:31
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 21:32
  Tina Strachan: Just to self preservation.
• 21:33
  Tina Strachan: Right.
• 21:33
  Tina Strachan: You don't wanna keep getting hurt.
• 21:35
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 21:36
  Sandy Bigna: Yeah.
• 21:36
  Sandy Bigna: Um, so yeah, it sort of, it sort of went from there.
• 21:40
  Sandy Bigna: And then of course, you know, the.
• 21:43
  Sandy Bigna: The manuscript had to go out on submission and sort of waiting to see what publishers, if any, would get back.
• 21:50
  Sandy Bigna: So again, it's keeping those hopes manageable.
• 21:53
  Sandy Bigna: And then UQP, um, indicated they were interested in setting up a Zoom meeting and, um, Kathy Lance, um, had a chat with me and Danielle, and then not long after that, she got back to, um, Danielle and said she'd like to offer a contract and a two book deal with UQP.
• 22:15
  Sandy Bigna: So that's basically, sorry, quite a long story, but how it, um, yeah, how it came about and then signing that contract and it was, you know, a dream come true after the many, many, many years of rejections and putting things on hold and having kids and, you know, feeling like it may never happen.
• 22:35
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, no, that's such an important and incredible story, important story though, because, um, your rejections can really get you down.
• 22:43
  Tina Strachan: And that's why I just love sharing these stories because it's so important for people to hear these, um, really great outcomes.
• 22:52
  Tina Strachan: And had you have, let those rejections get you down and stop you from writing or doubt yourself to a point that you just don't wanna submit anymore, you'd never be here now with this book, which ev, which has had such amazing reviews and, and feedback and it's, it's just been incredible.
• 23:09
  Tina Strachan: Congratulations, Sandy.
• 23:12
  Tina Strachan: So tell us, um, two book deals though, is the second book related to little bones or.
• 23:19
  Sandy Bigna: No, so the second book, uh, will be completely different still.
• 23:23
  Sandy Bigna: Um, yeah, it's still trying to get the magic that I felt with Little Bones.
• 23:29
  Sandy Bigna: I think it's that second book.
• 23:32
  Sandy Bigna: Pressure that people talk about.
• 23:34
  Sandy Bigna: And your head space is still obviously with that first book.
• 23:37
  Sandy Bigna: Yeah.
• 23:37
  Sandy Bigna: I wanna hear Lucie's story about this.
• 23:39
  Sandy Bigna: 'Cause I know she's doing a book too.
• 23:41
  Sandy Bigna: Um, or has done, but um, yeah, it's, it's, it's completely different to Book one where there's no pressure, you're just doing it for yourself
• 23:51
  Tina Strachan: Just writing words and throwing them away and just taking your time and Absolutely.
• 23:56
  Sandy Bigna: Well, you would know about this too, Tina, with a booked, you know, your
• 24:00
  Tina Strachan: And three.
• 24:01
  Tina Strachan: I know.
• 24:01
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 24:02
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 24:02
  Sandy Bigna: goodness.
• 24:03
  Tina Strachan: It's different when there's a deadline.
• 24:04
  Tina Strachan: We could do a whole episode on second book syndrome, I'm gonna call it.
• 24:08
  Tina Strachan: It is, yeah.
• 24:09
  Tina Strachan: And it's across, it's across the board and it's, yeah.
• 24:11
  Tina Strachan: Lots of people are chatting about it, but that's incredible.
• 24:13
  Tina Strachan: Um, incredible story.
• 24:15
  Tina Strachan: Um, so can, so yeah.
• 24:18
  Tina Strachan: Lucie, let's move on to you.
• 24:20
  Tina Strachan: Tell us about your story from, you know, when you first started writing and, and how that happened and, um, to signing on that dotted line.
• 24:29
  Lucie Stevens: Well, I, a, a lot of what Sandy said resonates with me too, actually.
• 24:34
  Lucie Stevens: So, um, my publication journey has also been very, very long.
• 24:40
  Lucie Stevens: I've wanted to be an author, uh, specifically a novelist since I was really a very young child.
• 24:47
  Lucie Stevens: I think even before I really understood what an author was, I knew I wanted to, to make books and write books.
• 24:53
  Lucie Stevens: Um, so I, I had sort of tried really hard, um, in my younger years.
• 24:59
  Lucie Stevens: Um, same as Sandy thought.
• 25:01
  Lucie Stevens: Oh yeah.
• 25:01
  Lucie Stevens: By the time I'm, I thought, yes, definitely by the time I'm in my early twenties I will have published a novel, but, uh, that's not how it came about.
• 25:09
  Lucie Stevens: So, um, sort of the, the publication journey for RIP, nanny Tobins started with, uh, a big disappointment.
• 25:20
  Lucie Stevens: Um, I had been working on another novel, uh, as part of my dissertation for my master's program, and I had secured representation and I'd also had a few successes that I think Sandy can also relate to.
• 25:33
  Lucie Stevens: So, Varuna Fellowship, I received an a SA mentorship, um, to support the development, which you know, was so exciting and.
• 25:42
  Lucie Stevens: Very much a, a high and sort of a vote of confidence.
• 25:45
  Lucie Stevens: So, uh, but this novel was not the first novel that I'd been through that process with.
• 25:49
  Lucie Stevens: So there was one even before that that I'd also received a UNA fellowship for, and an a SA mentorship for, and it hadn't secured publications so.
• 25:58
  Lucie Stevens: When I was working on this other one as part of my dissertation, I thought finally, finally, this is going to happen.
• 26:04
  Lucie Stevens: This is going to be the one that sort of, um, you know, heals all the heartbreak from the previous big disappointment and heartbreak.
• 26:13
  Lucie Stevens: So anyway, um, my agent started shopping That one around, that one was, um, so this was happening in, um, in 2022.
• 26:23
  Lucie Stevens: And after a couple of submissions, which were rejections, we got some feedback about it.
• 26:29
  Lucie Stevens: And my agent said to me, I think we need to pull this from submissions for the moment, and you need to have a rethink about it.
• 26:38
  Lucie Stevens: And I was sort of all, you know, ready to jump in.
• 26:41
  Lucie Stevens: And I said to her, I know how to fix it.
• 26:43
  Lucie Stevens: I know how, how I can change things and it'll be great.
• 26:46
  Lucie Stevens: And she said, no, no, no, no, no.
• 26:47
  Lucie Stevens: You need to take a break from this novel.
• 26:50
  Lucie Stevens: You need to step away from it.
• 26:52
  Lucie Stevens: And I thought she was gonna say to me, you know, why don't you take up crocheting or something like this?
• 26:56
  Lucie Stevens: And she said, I want you to go away and write me something fun.
• 27:00
  Lucie Stevens: So, um, at this point I was, I was devastated to have to go through this whole sort of process of rejection and heartbreak again.
• 27:08
  Lucie Stevens: And, um, I also had a very, very heavy.
• 27:12
  Lucie Stevens: Uh, client workload.
• 27:13
  Lucie Stevens: So I work as a freelance editor, so I was working, you know, an average of six, six and a half days a week.
• 27:19
  Lucie Stevens: And I thought if I don't enroll in some kind of program or structure to support my writing, I'm just not gonna do it at the moment because I was so heartbroken and feeling very sort of de-energized and not very motivated about it.
• 27:34
  Lucie Stevens: Um, but I had mentioned this idea of this ghost governess to my agent Dean, and she said, I love it.
• 27:40
  Lucie Stevens: Write that, write that story.
• 27:42
  Lucie Stevens: So I hadn't really done a lot of thinking about the story.
• 27:45
  Lucie Stevens: Um, but I enrolled in a four month program run by Sarah Sentis, who, if you've ever worked with her, you will be familiar with her unique brand of magic.
• 27:54
  Lucie Stevens: Um, so this great four month program called the Word River and I decided that by the end of six months I wanted to have a first draft of this ghost governance novel.
• 28:04
  Lucie Stevens: I didn't do any planning, which is highly unusual for me.
• 28:07
  Lucie Stevens: I'm not a total planner.
• 28:08
  Lucie Stevens: I'm a bit of a, like halfway between a planner and a pants.
• 28:11
  Lucie Stevens: Um, but I didn't do any research, which is kind of funny'cause it is a historical novel.
• 28:16
  Lucie Stevens: But I thought, I'm just gonna sit down, smash out a, a first draft in six months and see if I can do it.
• 28:21
  Lucie Stevens: And just really lean into the joy of creating, not worry about this going anywhere, just really write something for myself and have fun with it.
• 28:31
  Lucie Stevens: So I did that.
• 28:33
  Lucie Stevens: I managed somehow, I still don't know to this day how I managed to pull it off with the workload I had at the time, but.
• 28:39
  Lucie Stevens: I did end up with a first draft in that period, and I sent it to Dean, my agent thinking, um, she's probably, I had some concerns about it.
• 28:50
  Lucie Stevens: Um, the tone, the voice of the novel is very, very quaint, and that's for a particular reason.
• 28:55
  Lucie Stevens: And without this sort of quaint voice, the whole novel really wouldn't work because it's the, it's the point of view of the protagonist, um, that really makes the whole story work.
• 29:04
  Lucie Stevens: So I thought it's, this voice is not gonna land with a contemporary audience.
• 29:09
  Lucie Stevens: So I had very low expectations and I didn't wanna do any more work on it until Deanne had looked at it.
• 29:15
  Lucie Stevens: Um, but she came back to me very quickly and she said that she absolutely loved it and to keep going.
• 29:21
  Lucie Stevens: So she gave me some notes and I spent another sort of probably about six to eight months working on it, sent it back to her and she said, okay, let's give this one a go.
• 29:30
  Lucie Stevens: So she started sending it out.
• 29:32
  Lucie Stevens: Uh, a first rejection came through.
• 29:35
  Lucie Stevens: The publisher absolutely loved it, but she couldn't get it through acquisitions, so I was straight away.
• 29:42
  Lucie Stevens: I was like, oh, no one's gonna want this novel.
• 29:44
  Lucie Stevens: You know, people might love it, but they don't think there's a market for it.
• 29:47
  Lucie Stevens: And I was very kind of like, woe is me.
• 29:50
  Lucie Stevens: Then we got a second rejection and I was like, yeah, this is, you know, hard evidence that this, this novel is not going anywhere.
• 29:57
  Lucie Stevens: And I'm sort of back to square one again.
• 29:59
  Lucie Stevens: Um, and then one day Dean called me, which was really unusual.
• 30:03
  Lucie Stevens: Normally we only ever communicate via email, and she said, Lisa Berryman from Harper Collins wants to speak to you.
• 30:10
  Lucie Stevens: And I was like, why, why, why?
• 30:13
  Lucie Stevens: Um, and she said, oh, she just wants to have a chat and get a feel for you as a person.
• 30:17
  Lucie Stevens: So we lined up a call and um, had a lovely conversation with Lisa.
• 30:21
  Lucie Stevens: Lisa is also another very wonderful, magical person.
• 30:25
  Lucie Stevens: And, um, she said to me, okay, um, I really.
• 30:30
  Lucie Stevens: This manuscript, I'm gonna share it with my editorial team and then we're gonna, um, sort of take it from there.
• 30:36
  Lucie Stevens: So her team loved it and she then came back and said, we're now gonna take it to acquisitions.
• 30:41
  Lucie Stevens: But of course, after so much history of rejection, uh, like Sandy, I just didn't wanna believe that maybe this would happen this time.
• 30:51
  Lucie Stevens: Um, and so I really just.
• 30:54
  Lucie Stevens: I kept my expectations very low.
• 30:56
  Lucie Stevens: But, um, and there was sort of a, a, a bit of a gap between hearing that and the actual meeting.
• 31:02
  Lucie Stevens: And in that time, DeAnn had come back and said to me, they're now discussing a two book deal, just to let you know, make sure you have another idea up your sleeve kind of thing.
• 31:10
  Lucie Stevens: Um, and at that time I did have another idea up my sleeve, but it was a different idea to the one that I ended up pitching to Lisa.
• 31:16
  Lucie Stevens: Um, so there is a sequel coming out for RIP, nanny Tobins.
• 31:21
  Lucie Stevens: It'll be coming out mid 2026.
• 31:23
  Lucie Stevens: And I literally had the idea for it.
• 31:25
  Lucie Stevens: The day before my meeting with Lisa to pitch my idea, I was cleaning the shower.
• 31:30
  Lucie Stevens: I had this amazing flash of inspiration and I was like, oh.
• 31:34
  Lucie Stevens: That's what I should be pitching.
• 31:36
  Lucie Stevens: Um, and uh, and she loved it.
• 31:37
  Lucie Stevens: So there was then a sort of a period of time, so this was towards the end of 2023 now.
• 31:45
  Lucie Stevens: Um, and of course we were falling into the holiday period at the end of the year.
• 31:51
  Lucie Stevens: And, uh, things went quiet for a little while.
• 31:53
  Lucie Stevens: And of course I started to panic thinking, okay, things have changed.
• 31:56
  Lucie Stevens: It was at the time to, um, when, uh, target was bought by Kmart and this had caused a little bit of instability in the market.
• 32:05
  Lucie Stevens: And I thought, oh no, you know, this is gonna have ramifications.
• 32:09
  Lucie Stevens: Um, but actually what was happening was DeAnn was just doing a brilliant job as an agent.
• 32:14
  Lucie Stevens: And, um, you know.
• 32:16
  Lucie Stevens: Negotiating some courses in my contract to my benefit.
• 32:19
  Lucie Stevens: So, um, that's really what was happening behind the scenes while I was meanwhile panicking.
• 32:23
  Lucie Stevens: Um, and then, yeah, so I think in January, 2024, I signed my two book deal with Huffer Collins, which just blew my mind.
• 32:31
  Lucie Stevens: Um, although it was quite funny'cause it was done electronically, so it was almost a little bit anti-climatic.
• 32:37
  Lucie Stevens: It was just like clicking a box.
• 32:39
  Lucie Stevens: It wasn't this sort of romantic notion of printing out a copy or receiving a hard copy in the mail and getting a beautiful pen and signing on the dotted line.
• 32:48
  Lucie Stevens: Um, but of course it was still an amazing moment.
• 32:51
  Lucie Stevens: Um, but a very long lead time into publication then.
• 32:55
  Lucie Stevens: Um, and that was strategic so that I would have time to write the sequel, uh, before, you know, get a lot of the sequel kind of written before the first one came out.
• 33:05
  Lucie Stevens: So yeah, that's, that's sort of the journey.
• 33:07
  Tina Strachan: It's incredible journey.
• 33:09
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah, it's, it's a bit, um, when things go quiet, it's your, your or your brain just goes to the, oh yeah, they've just decided they don't want it anymore.
• 33:20
  Tina Strachan: I'm just gonna get an email every, any minute now saying, actually rethought that we are taking it off the table.
• 33:25
  Tina Strachan: Uh, you know, I look, it's probably happened before, but it's, um, yeah, it's just where your brain goes, isn't it?
• 33:30
  Tina Strachan: But it's usually always for a good thing.
• 33:32
  Tina Strachan: Um, I'm also with Lisa Berryman from Harper Collins, so, um, yes, I, I know how exciting that is.
• 33:38
  Tina Strachan: If you get a call from Lisa, it's usually
• 33:40
  Lucie Stevens: Yes, it's a thrill.
• 33:44
  Tina Strachan: Um, but Lucie, uh, congratulations on the two book deal.
• 33:47
  Tina Strachan: I can't wait to hear more from RIP.
• 33:50
  Tina Strachan: Uh, then Tobins, and I agree with you, that quaint voice though that you mentioned before, I think that's absolutely what sets it apart and it makes it refreshing big in a way.
• 33:59
  Tina Strachan: Um, I feel like there hasn't been much like that lately, and I, I think that's what's been really nice about it as well, um, from my point of view.
• 34:07
  Tina Strachan: Anyway, that, um, yeah, something, something different and, you know, I loved it.
• 34:12
  Tina Strachan: It was a, it's a lovely journey.
• 34:14
  Lucie Stevens: Thanks Tina.
• 34:15
  Tina Strachan: so Shara, can you tell us a little bit about, uh, your unique journey to publication?
• 34:21
  Tina Strachan: Can you start back from when you first started writing as well?
• 34:25
  Shara Curlett: Oh, I'd love to.
• 34:26
  Shara Curlett: I, I think my, my one is a typical story.
• 34:30
  Shara Curlett: Um, a lot of people, they'll have their first child and then they'll get immersed into the picture book world, or they've wanted to do it their entire life.
• 34:39
  Shara Curlett: Um, I had no idea I wanted to do it in my entire life.
• 34:43
  Shara Curlett: Uh, basically I just wrote all the time.
• 34:46
  Shara Curlett: But, um, it wasn't until I had a, a year where I describe it as the opposite of four weddings and a funeral, and I had an immense amount of grief and I had no idea how to process it.
• 34:56
  Shara Curlett: Um, I ran a business at the time, so I got, I was just stuck into that.
• 35:00
  Shara Curlett: I, and I just randomly started writing a novel, and in the past, I'd, I'd write a novel to help kind of process things, but I'd never finish it.
• 35:09
  Shara Curlett: I'd write like a few chapters, um, except for when I was young, where I'd write 200 page refill pads.
• 35:15
  Shara Curlett: Um.
• 35:16
  Shara Curlett: But this, this time was quite different.
• 35:18
  Shara Curlett: Um, I wrote, I ended up writing two 90,000 word novels.
• 35:23
  Shara Curlett: One was a ya and one was an adult sci-fi.
• 35:28
  Shara Curlett: Um, and then I just put them away, like I just put them on the desk and continued on with my business.
• 35:35
  Shara Curlett: Um, and it was, it was so cathartic for me.
• 35:38
  Shara Curlett: It was just, by the time I finished them, I'd kind of processed all my emotions through my words and it, in the end, it was just a deep breath.
• 35:50
  Shara Curlett: And I was like, that's, I really needed that.
• 35:52
  Shara Curlett: Um, but it kept, it kept going around in my mind.
• 35:55
  Shara Curlett: Um, and then the following year, I, I fell pregnant and I just said to my husband.
• 36:03
  Shara Curlett: I can't continue this business.
• 36:05
  Shara Curlett: It's too full on.
• 36:06
  Shara Curlett: I, I think I want to become a writer.
• 36:08
  Shara Curlett: And he bless him.
• 36:09
  Shara Curlett: He's so, he's so amazingly supportive.
• 36:11
  Shara Curlett: He was just like, okay.
• 36:14
  Shara Curlett: That was pretty much just that word Okay.
• 36:17
  Shara Curlett: With the, with a slight pitch in it.
• 36:20
  Tina Strachan: And a little twitch in his eye, like,
• 36:23
  Shara Curlett: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:23
  Shara Curlett: Um, and so I went through the process of selling my business, um, and then by the time I had my first child, I was rewriting the YA novel into a middle grade because I had felt that the ya wasn't quite the right space for it.
• 36:39
  Shara Curlett: Uh, and then I injured myself and I was bedridden for about six weeks with a broken toe and a, um, my, a lower lumbar dys bulge that was quite severe.
• 36:54
  Shara Curlett: Um, and.
• 36:55
  Shara Curlett: My daughter was only seven weeks old, so we had family support.
• 36:59
  Shara Curlett: Yeah, it was just horrendous.
• 37:00
  Shara Curlett: So we had family support coming in and I think the moment I started to feel like it was overwhelming me, I basically just wrote, so I was just writing on my phone.
• 37:11
  Shara Curlett: Um, fast forward a few years and I'd a few courses through the Australian Writers Center.
• 37:20
  Shara Curlett: Um, and I had my son, and then he was born with, uh, what's called Laryngomalacia, which is a floppy larynx basically.
• 37:28
  Shara Curlett: So every time I tried to lay him down to go to sleep, he would, he would just get really, really upset.
• 37:34
  Shara Curlett: And then when he was sick, he would start to turn blue.
• 37:36
  Shara Curlett: So I basically spent the entire first year with him in upright in my arm so he could breathe properly.
• 37:42
  Shara Curlett: And I just adapted like.
• 37:44
  Shara Curlett: I just, I just wrote through it and I kept myself awake all night because it was, you know, you've got your, your baby and you're scared of that whole bed sharing side of things.
• 37:53
  Shara Curlett: And so I just made it safe and I wrote, and that kept me awake.
• 37:57
  Shara Curlett: Um, and from there I did a few more courses.
• 38:02
  Shara Curlett: And I think the most pivotal part was forming a community.
• 38:06
  Shara Curlett: Um, my, I was in the duck pond and I just, I was in the midst of motherhood.
• 38:12
  Shara Curlett: Um, and this was just before I had my son.
• 38:17
  Shara Curlett: And basically I just put it out there.
• 38:20
  Shara Curlett: Are there any moms who would like to do critiques, who don't want any pressure?
• 38:23
  Shara Curlett: Because it's hard enough as it is.
• 38:26
  Shara Curlett: And I said, basically, if you want to have a critique, you just put your hand up and if you can help, you'll say yes.
• 38:32
  Shara Curlett: And it, it was so low key.
• 38:34
  Shara Curlett: And there was about 10 or 11 of us, I think.
• 38:37
  Shara Curlett: Um.
• 38:38
  Shara Curlett: To begin with.
• 38:39
  Shara Curlett: And it was just the most beautiful coming together of like-minded people in the same situation.
• 38:46
  Shara Curlett: Um, feeling quite lonely prior to that moment because we didn't really have our people.
• 38:52
  Shara Curlett: And from there it just, it just grew and now it's just a beautiful small group of people and we share each other on, and it's, it's just amazing.
• 39:02
  Shara Curlett: Um, and so I am very terrible at submitting.
• 39:06
  Shara Curlett: I would write a novel.
• 39:07
  Shara Curlett: I'd submit it once or get it assessed.
• 39:09
  Shara Curlett: Um, CYA was a huge part of that.
• 39:12
  Shara Curlett: Beck.
• 39:12
  Shara Curlett: I did all the things.
• 39:13
  Shara Curlett: I invested in an editor.
• 39:15
  Shara Curlett: I did.
• 39:15
  Shara Curlett: Um, I use beta readers, professional beta readers.
• 39:18
  Shara Curlett: Um, and then I, I, um, I would submit it.
• 39:24
  Shara Curlett: I'd get a rejection and they're like, and revenge, right?
• 39:27
  Shara Curlett: Another novel.
• 39:28
  Shara Curlett: So.
• 39:29
  Shara Curlett: I think it was, I think it was Stephen King who said something along the lines of, but also many people before him.
• 39:36
  Shara Curlett: It takes, um, the first 1 million words you basically throw away.
• 39:40
  Shara Curlett: And I love to just say that I tweak that slightly by saying it for me personally, it took a million words to really understand and find my own voice.
• 39:50
  Shara Curlett: And now I get it.
• 39:51
  Shara Curlett: It's like a light bulb.
• 39:52
  Shara Curlett: Once I understood vo voice completely, I was just like, I've got it now.
• 39:57
  Shara Curlett: And, um, I was starting to go down the illustration path and get distracted by that.
• 40:03
  Shara Curlett: And then I realized, no, I need to focus on my writing.
• 40:06
  Shara Curlett: That's my, that's my heart.
• 40:07
  Shara Curlett: That's, that's my, um, my sanity when all the world around me is just going crazy.
• 40:15
  Shara Curlett: Kids are screaming mum every five seconds.
• 40:17
  Shara Curlett: Um, so I use writing as a form of therapy.
• 40:21
  Shara Curlett: And so I, I realized at that moment, no, I need to focus on the words.
• 40:25
  Shara Curlett: I'm getting distracted and middle grade is my voice.
• 40:28
  Shara Curlett: Um.
• 40:29
  Shara Curlett: And then I wrote Welcome to Miracle.
• 40:31
  Shara Curlett: Um, and I submitted it to an agent and she kind of, she was kind of half on it, but not quite.
• 40:39
  Shara Curlett: Um, and then I had an assessment at CYA with LaRay Fosse from Scholastic Australia.
• 40:45
  Shara Curlett: And we, you know, when you speak to someone who just seems to get your writing, um, like I was, I was talking with her and she was really positive about it, and I just felt that uplifting moment where, oh, maybe this is it.
• 41:00
  Shara Curlett: Maybe this is the one.
• 41:01
  Shara Curlett: I knew there was something special about the book when I wrote it.
• 41:04
  Shara Curlett: The voice was just on a different level.
• 41:07
  Shara Curlett: Um, and then she said she asked for the full, um, and then four months passed and I just wrote it off.
• 41:16
  Shara Curlett: So I was like, no, okay.
• 41:18
  Shara Curlett: It just didn't work.
• 41:18
  Shara Curlett: That's okay.
• 41:20
  Shara Curlett: Um, and I just, but within that time, I just started writing a new novel.
• 41:24
  Shara Curlett: So.
• 41:25
  Shara Curlett: Um, at the conclusion of that four months, I get an email from La LaRay and it's basically saying, uh, I loved it.
• 41:33
  Shara Curlett: We'd love to make you an offer.
• 41:36
  Shara Curlett: And honestly, like, I think I've said before, I totally dropped my knees ugly, cried on the floor.
• 41:42
  Shara Curlett: My little boy came up to me, he was like, mommy, are you okay?
• 41:45
  Shara Curlett: And I'm like, they're happy tears.
• 41:47
  Shara Curlett: Um, and not that I write for publication, but it was, it was one of those moments where I was just like, this, this just validates all my hard work.
• 41:57
  Shara Curlett: Like, yeah.
• 41:58
  Shara Curlett: Yeah.
• 41:58
  Shara Curlett: It was, it was such a great moment.
• 42:00
  Shara Curlett: And working with Scholastic was just incredible.
• 42:03
  Shara Curlett: They're just such an amazing team.
• 42:05
  Shara Curlett: Um, yeah.
• 42:06
  Shara Curlett: And that's, that's my journey.
• 42:09
  Tina Strachan: That's an incredible story.
• 42:10
  Tina Strachan: Shara, there's so many things that I wanna dip into a little bit there.
• 42:14
  Tina Strachan: But one thing that I was hoping that you could explain for listeners is the duck pond, because a lot of that's been very helpful for lots of people.
• 42:21
  Tina Strachan: Um, but for our kid that authors who are listening, can you explain, explain what the duck pond is and how people can maybe get on board with that as well.
• 42:30
  Shara Curlett: Yes.
• 42:30
  Shara Curlett: Well, uh, Jen Stoa has, uh, I think a lot of people know Jen Stoa.
• 42:35
  Shara Curlett: Um, she has been in the.
• 42:38
  Shara Curlett: Industry for a long time, and she's been such a huge champion of other writers.
• 42:42
  Shara Curlett: She's, she has a few courses.
• 42:44
  Shara Curlett: She, um, and she formed a group called The Duck Pond, which is, it was just a community to begin with.
• 42:51
  Shara Curlett: Um, and then obviously like it's hard as a writer to, to get money.
• 42:55
  Shara Curlett: And then she made it a, she made it a group where you subscribe and I fully went along with that because I valued what she did.
• 43:02
  Shara Curlett: She brought on master classes and all that kind of thing.
• 43:05
  Shara Curlett: Um, sad, sadly, it's wrapped up now.
• 43:07
  Shara Curlett: Uh, she, this was her final year and I think, I think she's, yeah, I think she's left just such a huge legacy on the industry.
• 43:15
  Shara Curlett: And, and that's, that's not it for her.
• 43:18
  Shara Curlett: I think she's diving into illustration and I'm sure like she'll find a way to, to come back.
• 43:23
  Shara Curlett: But I, I think that group in particular is because I'm a New Zealander, I don't think I've even mentioned that.
• 43:30
  Shara Curlett: Um, I live in Auckland, New Zealand, and I didn't really find a place within.
• 43:36
  Shara Curlett: The New Zealand community, or perhaps I didn't search for it.
• 43:39
  Shara Curlett: Um, I just found myself in the Australian community, and honestly, it's just like a woman brace.
• 43:44
  Shara Curlett: Um, everyone, honestly, everyone in the Kid lit community over there is just so amazing, so kind, so generous and, um, yeah.
• 43:54
  Shara Curlett: And, and Jean Stewart embodied that, that was, she was the epitome of that.
• 43:58
  Shara Curlett: Yeah.
• 43:59
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, well, you know, it, we did find, like we only just met in person on the weekend, didn't we?
• 44:04
  Tina Strachan: At the CYA
• 44:05
  Shara Curlett: yes.
• 44:06
  Shara Curlett: Uh,
• 44:07
  Tina Strachan: um, the amount of people that said, are you that thought I was you and you were me,
• 44:12
  Shara Curlett: I.
• 44:13
  Tina Strachan: and that we really are, are you sure you're not sisters?
• 44:16
  Tina Strachan: Oh, it's great.
• 44:17
  Tina Strachan: So, you know, you came over here and found your Aussie sister and I'm so glad I found my New Zealand sister.
• 44:22
  Shara Curlett: I know, I know.
• 44:24
  Shara Curlett: And that, that was totally what it felt like.
• 44:26
  Shara Curlett: We've built these relationships online and meeting you on per in person.
• 44:30
  Shara Curlett: It was, it was just like, oh my gosh, my, my friend I haven't seen in so long.
• 44:35
  Shara Curlett: Yeah.
• 44:36
  Shara Curlett: It was so wonderful.
• 44:38
  Shara Curlett: And now I've gotta figure out a way to move to the Gold Coast.
• 44:40
  Tina Strachan: Yes, please.
• 44:41
  Tina Strachan: Well, we are here and ready for you to join us and you can say you're an Aussie writer if you want, but no New Zealand or New Zealand writers are amazing as well.
• 44:56
  Natalie Kyriacou: Hi everyone.
• 44:57
  Natalie Kyriacou: I am Natalie Kyriacou, and I'm the author of a new nonfiction book called Nature's Last Dance Tales of Wonder in An Age of Extinction.
• 45:06
  Natalie Kyriacou: It's out on August 26th, and it's published by a firm press through Simon and Schuster.
• 45:13
  Natalie Kyriacou: If you've ever wondered how animal genitalia is uncovering bias in evolutionary theory, or why Australia lost a war to an emu, or how the cure to cancer is in nature and maybe going extinct, well then this book is for you.
• 45:28
  Natalie Kyriacou: Nature's last stance is a fierce.
• 45:30
  Natalie Kyriacou: Funny and deeply moving odyssey into the power, politics, and chaos of humanity's relationship with nature, where birds, romance, rocks, drug lords, unleash hippos, and worlds collide.
• 45:43
  Natalie Kyriacou: This book explores the way nature, shapes, cultures, economies, politics, and societies, and defines the very fabric of human civilization, and it's told through a range of somewhat irreverent, quirky, joyful, sweet, and sometimes tragic stories.
• 46:01
  Natalie Kyriacou: Often we think of nature and assume it's a niche topic, something that we're fond of, but perhaps wouldn't wanna read about.
• 46:08
  Natalie Kyriacou: This book aims to change that.
• 46:10
  Natalie Kyriacou: It charts the romantic lives of wildlife, the rise and fall of empires, the stories of women on the front lines of crisis, who are mobilizing the world through their compassion and the scandalous underbelly of the birdwatching community, which is filled with Shakespearean level drama.
• 46:26
  Natalie Kyriacou: Writing Nature's Last Dance was the greatest joy of my life.
• 46:30
  Natalie Kyriacou: This book is my whole heart and my whole brain, and I hope you love it.
• 46:34
  Natalie Kyriacou: I think it's important.
• 46:36
  Natalie Kyriacou: Well, of course I do.
• 46:37
  Natalie Kyriacou: I I wrote it, but I hope you do too.
• 46:41
  I.
• 46:47
  Tina Strachan: So all those stories just go to show how everybody's journey is different.
• 46:52
  Tina Strachan: All three of your journeys were different.
• 46:53
  Tina Strachan: My journey was different to that.
• 46:55
  Tina Strachan: Um, but still lots of similarities.
• 46:57
  Tina Strachan: I think everyone spoke of rejections, you know, like just you, so you just have to keep on pushing through and, and I think also like just trusting in what you're writing as well.
• 47:06
  Tina Strachan: Um, and, and just, you know, going with that and pushing forward with that.
• 47:09
  Tina Strachan: And, there's one constant as well.
• 47:12
  Tina Strachan: Another one that I've found between everyone is just putting your work out there and getting it seen.
• 47:15
  Tina Strachan: And, and no matter how you do that, and that can lead to rejections in the first place and that's fine, but, you know, conferences keep it VCYA assessments, um, finding agents and putting it out there, um, it's, it's just the only way that you can get your work picked up.
• 47:31
  Tina Strachan: Right.
• 47:32
  Tina Strachan: So any other major tips from, from the pros here?
• 47:37
  Tina Strachan: I'll ask each of you, can anyone give, can you give a tip for our sparring authors who are trying to get their work out there and trying to get it signed?
• 47:44
  Tina Strachan: And then maybe something for our debut authors, because there's, you know, we've got a debut crew 2025, we've got another five months left of the year.
• 47:52
  Tina Strachan: So, uh, with people's books coming out and everyone's always in that leader.
• 47:56
  Tina Strachan: We, and we've all been there, you're so desperate to find out what's actually happening, what should I do, what are the do's and don'ts?
• 48:01
  Tina Strachan: 'cause everyone just wants to make the most of it.
• 48:03
  Tina Strachan: And, you know, there's a 2026 crew now.
• 48:05
  Tina Strachan: Probably a 2027 crew started as well.
• 48:08
  Tina Strachan: Um, so because like we just spoke about that really long lead time, right?
• 48:12
  Tina Strachan: Um, so Shara, I'll start with you.
• 48:14
  Tina Strachan: What tips have you got for our listeners?
• 48:18
  Shara Curlett: Um, yeah, I was thinking about this.
• 48:20
  Shara Curlett: I was asked this at and, uh, ran out of time, so I had to give a couple of like throwaway do this and that.
• 48:27
  Shara Curlett: But um, and this may be controversial, but there's a big thing on luck in the industry.
• 48:32
  Shara Curlett: Uh, it's just, it, it was, it was lucky.
• 48:35
  Shara Curlett: I real deal with that because, uh, every single one of us works so hard and we do the work, we put ourselves in front of the right people.
• 48:46
  Shara Curlett: Um, and I've been going for like nine years now, uh, and I've only just got my first deal and then I just got my second deal.
• 48:53
  Shara Curlett: Um, so I really wanna remove the word luck from the industry.
• 48:57
  Shara Curlett: I think it's, it's definitely a matter of timing sometimes and getting in front of the right people.
• 49:02
  Shara Curlett: Um, but I think it's important to.
• 49:07
  Shara Curlett: To embrace the whole, the whole picture, which is you do the work, you put yourself in front of the right person and you will get rejections.
• 49:16
  Shara Curlett: And it's how you handle those rejections.
• 49:18
  Shara Curlett: Do you wallow or do you just keep pushing forward?
• 49:21
  Shara Curlett: Um, that, that's what I think personally.
• 49:23
  Shara Curlett: And, and the other thing is just to find your tribe.
• 49:25
  Shara Curlett: I think when I found my people, it just transformed every, everything.
• 49:29
  Shara Curlett: Suddenly you've got people to bounce your work off.
• 49:31
  Shara Curlett: You've got people to share the ups and downs with you really truly celebrate each other's successes.
• 49:38
  Shara Curlett: Um.
• 49:39
  Shara Curlett: And I think that's a, it helps for, from a mental perspective, and it also helps from an encouragement perspective as well.
• 49:46
  Shara Curlett: Um, we've got a few friends shifting from picture book to long, long form, um, and they're a bit intimidated by the words, and I just, I just keep saying, just focus on the character, focus on the heart.
• 49:57
  Shara Curlett: It's just remember why you write.
• 50:00
  Shara Curlett: Yeah.
• 50:01
  Shara Curlett: Um, and for debuts, I, I think, um, we've got such a great group this year.
• 50:06
  Shara Curlett: Everyone is so amazing and all the books are so incredibly incredible and incredibly different.
• 50:11
  Shara Curlett: It's, it's just such a joy to see them all coming out and celebrating each other's successes.
• 50:16
  Shara Curlett: Um, I just, I just think remember why you write, like, just remember why you write throughout the entire process always.
• 50:23
  Shara Curlett: Yeah.
• 50:23
  Shara Curlett: That would be mine.
• 50:25
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, they're really good tips and I agree with you about the, the luck thing.
• 50:29
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah, I think that term gets confused with Right, right author, right publisher, right time, you know, it's, yeah.
• 50:37
  Tina Strachan: Don't you agree?
• 50:37
  Tina Strachan: Like it's, and, and maybe that's lucky that you just, it, you happen to, you know, like I say with my, uh, um, conversations with Lisa, when I first met her talking about a YA novel, um, it wasn't maybe luck, but it.
• 50:54
  Tina Strachan: You know, we could have hung up the phone at a particular point in time, but we didn't.
• 50:56
  Tina Strachan: I kept, you know, chatting and I kept pushing her to keep chatting.
• 50:59
  Tina Strachan: 'cause we're on the, I've got, I've got Lisa Berryman on the phone.
• 51:01
  Tina Strachan: Keep going.
• 51:02
  Tina Strachan: Don't let her go.
• 51:03
  Tina Strachan: Um, you know, but, you know, could, and maybe that's just a decision that you make.
• 51:08
  Tina Strachan: Um, maybe it's luck, I don't know.
• 51:10
  Tina Strachan: But it's, um, I don't think I would've probably signed with her in the end had I not gone on and had that conversation.
• 51:16
  Tina Strachan: That turned into a lot more.
• 51:18
  Tina Strachan: Um, yeah,
• 51:20
  Shara Curlett: also, you've gotta be the right person that she gels with, right?
• 51:23
  Shara Curlett: It it, yeah.
• 51:24
  Shara Curlett: It's a connection thing.
• 51:25
  Shara Curlett: And if you connect, you talk longer.
• 51:26
  Shara Curlett: Yeah.
• 51:27
  Tina Strachan: Connection.
• 51:27
  Tina Strachan: We talk, we spoke about that a lot.
• 51:28
  Tina Strachan: There was a lot about that at CYAA conference that was on the weekend and we had a really big success panel and um, I think there was like 13 successes from this year.
• 51:38
  Tina Strachan: Um, so, and everybody in a different way spoke of connection.
• 51:43
  Tina Strachan: Even if they didn't say the words connection, there was some kind of connection happening in their, um, journey to success through CYA.
• 51:50
  Tina Strachan: So that's really important.
• 51:51
  Tina Strachan: Okay.
• 51:52
  Tina Strachan: Lucie, what are your top tips for aspiring authors and debut Authors?
• 51:57
  Lucie Stevens: So I think for aspiring authors, one of the most important things is to commit to an attitude of continuous learning.
• 52:05
  Lucie Stevens: I think so.
• 52:07
  Lucie Stevens: Um, so I do a lot of manuscript assessments as part of my professional work, and I do have quite a lot of repeat clients.
• 52:14
  Lucie Stevens: And what I often see is that.
• 52:18
  Lucie Stevens: There hasn't been a lot of kind of learning happening between one manuscript and the next manuscript.
• 52:24
  Lucie Stevens: And I think that sometimes this can actually really hold people back.
• 52:27
  Lucie Stevens: So people who've got a lot of potential but maybe haven't sort of realized that they've still got quite a lot to learn.
• 52:35
  Lucie Stevens: And I know from my own experience to, um, when I look back at that very first novel that did end up getting rejected, I can now see why, you know, like despite the fact that I had won development awards and I had secured an agent, I can really see why that novel didn't get published.
• 52:52
  Lucie Stevens: Um, and in some respects I'm kind of glad that it didn't Now, you know, I mean, of course I would've had the benefit of working with an editor, um, to improve it.
• 53:00
  Lucie Stevens: And there were some things that I just wasn't capable of, of fixing.
• 53:04
  Lucie Stevens: It was, uh, I was trying to write something that I didn't have the skills to write essentially.
• 53:09
  Lucie Stevens: But I think it's, yeah, really important to remember that you don't just kind of become a writer.
• 53:15
  Lucie Stevens: And even the act of writing, while it's extremely important, it needs to come in tandem with a lot of learning as well.
• 53:21
  Lucie Stevens: And that means becoming really familiar with the conventions of the genre that you are trying to write.
• 53:27
  Lucie Stevens: Um, paying attention to the books that are being published and learning from them by reading them closely, um, joining your local groups that are available in your area or online to learn from the people around you as well.
• 53:41
  Lucie Stevens: So I just think it's, yeah, really important to remember that it's not just something that magically happens, that you actually have to work really hard to learn the skill and to master it as well, to master the craft.
• 53:52
  Lucie Stevens: So, yeah, I, I know I wasted a lot of time in my younger years.
• 53:57
  Lucie Stevens: Um, not really understanding genre conventions properly.
• 54:01
  Lucie Stevens: And I, I look back and I can see how I was so captivated by just the joy of writing, which obviously is really, really important as well, but going on tangents that really didn't serve the narrative and, um, sort of getting very captivated by the process instead of thinking a little bit more strategically about it.
• 54:20
  Lucie Stevens: So I couldn't have saved myself a lot of time if, if someone had given me the advice that I'm sort of putting out there now, I suppose, um, in theory, who knows?
• 54:29
  Lucie Stevens: But, um, and I think, like Shara said, um, for people with their first novels coming out in the near future, um, one of the best things I did actually was join the local, my local local CBCA community.
• 54:45
  Lucie Stevens: They are such a wonderful group.
• 54:47
  Lucie Stevens: I am so humbled by their generosity and support.
• 54:54
  Lucie Stevens: I've made some great friends who have been amazing mentors to me as well.
• 54:59
  Lucie Stevens: So it's been so wonderful, um, to be part of that community.
• 55:03
  Lucie Stevens: And I think, yeah, it's, it's great too because it's not just writers who are also, or, um, illustrators.
• 55:09
  Lucie Stevens: You are connecting with booksellers and librarians and teacher librarians, so it's really a wealth of knowledge and experience.
• 55:16
  Lucie Stevens: So I highly recommend people get involved in their, in their local CBCA community.
• 55:21
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, no, very important.
• 55:23
  Tina Strachan: The community, it's, it comes up every time, doesn't it?
• 55:25
  Tina Strachan: Finding a tribe like Shara said as well.
• 55:27
  Tina Strachan: Um, absolutely.
• 55:28
  Tina Strachan: Um, I really love what you say about conventions with writing though, because everybody who listens to the podcast knows that I, you know, I sort of say that I plot, but again, like I, I write, I'm probably like You, Lucie.
• 55:38
  Tina Strachan: I'm a little bit of both and I'm probably a lot of planning, but I, like I do that, sorry, afterwards as like a check.
• 55:44
  Tina Strachan: Like I love that editing process and I love just checking to make sure that everything sort of hits the mark before I go any further with it.
• 55:50
  Tina Strachan: And a lot of people, yeah, they, they're not even aware that there's particular conventions, um, in some of these genres.
• 55:56
  Tina Strachan: And, and that is something that you can find out and it's, and it all makes sense when you read it.
• 56:01
  Tina Strachan: You're like, and you think about the stories that you've read in that genre when you look at those conventions, um.
• 56:07
  Tina Strachan: It just makes sense.
• 56:08
  Tina Strachan: And you think about a book that you've read recently and you go, oh yeah, I, I see that point and I see that where that happened, and I see where that happened, and I see where that happened.
• 56:14
  Tina Strachan: And then you start to realize it's in all those well-written books that you've read.
• 56:19
  Tina Strachan: Um, and it's not, I think, yeah, people get a bit scared of losing that magic of writing and just freely having it.
• 56:26
  Tina Strachan: Right.
• 56:26
  Tina Strachan: And some people can just do it automatically, you know, come that comes out and they're very privileged to be able to just innately know where things go and when and why.
• 56:35
  Tina Strachan: But it's, it's such an important tool to go back to, even if it's just a check.
• 56:40
  Tina Strachan: Right.
• 56:41
  Lucie Stevens: Yeah, exactly.
• 56:42
  Lucie Stevens: And I think for me, to be honest, when I wrote, um, the first draft of ROP, nanny Tobins, I have to say that, um, and this was a highly unusual experience for me, that in the first instance, at least from a structural point of view, there was still a lot of work and development that had to happen.
• 56:57
  Lucie Stevens: But, um, all of those sort of conventions, all of the mandatory scenes just happened to be there in the right place at the right time.
• 57:06
  Lucie Stevens: And I almost couldn't believe it.
• 57:07
  Lucie Stevens: It was like, and I, I kept thinking it's Sarah STIs.
• 57:10
  Lucie Stevens: She somehow infused me with this amazing magic that she possesses, but actually.
• 57:16
  Lucie Stevens: I, I think what it was is it was all of those years of learning, sitting so hardwired in my subconscious that when I sat down to write, it felt very intuitive about when I needed to turn a scene and when I needed to build to a climax.
• 57:31
  Lucie Stevens: Um, and when I needed a moment of sort of like deep emotional resonance happening.
• 57:36
  Lucie Stevens: So I really feel like, um, the, the learning of the conventions is the, is the structure and then all of the magic and intuitive stuff happens around that.
• 57:46
  Lucie Stevens: And it's, it's almost like it's, it's there to support you.
• 57:49
  Lucie Stevens: All that learning is there to support you and it actually frees you in the moment when you're sitting down to write because you're not having to think so much about it.
• 57:56
  Lucie Stevens: It's sitting there already present.
• 57:58
  Lucie Stevens: So that's why I'm just such a big, as you can tell, advocate for like learning, just keep learning and then eventually it kind of all organically comes together, hopefully
• 58:07
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, and reading too, right?
• 58:09
  Tina Strachan: If you read a lot, that's it.
• 58:11
  Tina Strachan: Just, is it that format and that flow, it just sort of sits there as well because you know, you just innately learn it and so you know how it flows.
• 58:21
  Tina Strachan: 'cause you know what you've read and you just can write from what you've learned.
• 58:25
  Tina Strachan: Um,
• 58:25
  Lucie Stevens: like the rhythm of it sits there with you and you get a feel for how it needs to move.
• 58:30
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 58:30
  Tina Strachan: Yep.
• 58:31
  Tina Strachan: No, absolutely.
• 58:31
  Tina Strachan: Such good advice.
• 58:33
  Tina Strachan: And Sandy, what have you got for us?
• 58:35
  Sandy Bigna: Yeah, look, I'd struggle, um.
• 58:38
  Sandy Bigna: Agree with Lucie's advice about learning and your words about reading, and especially reading in your chosen genre.
• 58:45
  Sandy Bigna: So, um, for me, I made sure I read a lot of verse novels, um, just to get that idea of rhythm and, and the flow and the, and the lyrical language.
• 58:57
  Sandy Bigna: I also read, uh, poetry and then I also think it's important to read outside of, uh, your chosen genre as well, just to, um, you know, that can give you fresh ideas and, uh, ways of writing that you can incorporate into your own writing.
• 59:15
  Sandy Bigna: And I think it's, um, it's just really important, like Lucie said.
• 59:19
  Sandy Bigna: To hone your craft.
• 59:22
  Sandy Bigna: And you can do that by attending workshops, uh, attending conferences.
• 59:27
  Sandy Bigna: You can do writing courses online.
• 59:29
  Sandy Bigna: There's so many wonderful choices.
• 59:32
  Sandy Bigna: You don't even have to leave your house if you don't want to.
• 59:35
  Sandy Bigna: You could do it in your own time.
• 59:37
  Sandy Bigna: Um, so I think it's important to embrace all those learning opportunities.
• 59:42
  Sandy Bigna: Uh, like we've also said, find your tribe, find your people.
• 59:47
  Sandy Bigna: This might be slightly controversial, but I would say, okay, I love social media.
• 59:51
  Sandy Bigna: It's not for everyone.
• 59:53
  Sandy Bigna: Um, it can be a real time waster and there's a lot of advice about sort of not being on social media or kind of limiting your time on it.
• 1:00:02
  Sandy Bigna: But for me, uh, when I joined, uh, that Bookstagram community, that's where I made my connections.
• 1:00:11
  Sandy Bigna: Um, which of course you can do in person as well through, through your CBCA groups, but.
• 1:00:18
  Sandy Bigna: Sometimes some people find it actually quite intimidating to turn up to these groups in person.
• 1:00:24
  Sandy Bigna: You know, especially when you don't know anyone and you feel like a bit of an imposter.
• 1:00:29
  Sandy Bigna: You know?
• 1:00:29
  Sandy Bigna: It's that whole imposter syndrome.
• 1:00:31
  Sandy Bigna: Like, I'm not really an author, but you know, I think for some social media is a way to connect with people without having to, um, meet face to face initially if, if you don't feel comfortable to do that.
• 1:00:45
  Sandy Bigna: So you can, um, yeah, foster your own sort of communities that way as well and get to know people, get to, that's how I've met so many people who I feel like are my friends.
• 1:00:57
  Sandy Bigna: Um, we may not have met in real life, but you feel like you have and you have this whole supportive community around you.
• 1:01:05
  Sandy Bigna: I would say try not to spend all your time on social media.
• 1:01:10
  Sandy Bigna: You have to actually.
• 1:01:12
  Sandy Bigna: Do the writing as well, of course.
• 1:01:13
  Sandy Bigna: Um, so it's, it's just about whatever's, whatever works for you and your personality.
• 1:01:20
  Sandy Bigna: Um, so yeah, so basically read a lot, lots of workshops, find your people.
• 1:01:28
  Tina Strachan: Yep.
• 1:01:29
  Tina Strachan: Yep.
• 1:01:29
  Tina Strachan: Very important.
• 1:01:30
  Tina Strachan: Again, finding tribe and community.
• 1:01:31
  Tina Strachan: Right.
• 1:01:32
  Tina Strachan: And whether that's online or in person, it's all very important.
• 1:01:36
  Tina Strachan: Um, and the social media thing, uh, at CYA on the weekend, uh, during the publishers and agents panel, uh, you know, that was brought up.
• 1:01:44
  Tina Strachan: I think it's brought up every year about whether someone needs to be on social media.
• 1:01:48
  Tina Strachan: And I think it was kind of categorically.
• 1:01:50
  Tina Strachan: Well, look, it can, it's definitely gonna help you and not through the way that some people think, like, who aren't on social media or are really scared of it.
• 1:01:58
  Tina Strachan: Like, it's another way to contact you, a really easy way to contact you and to put your work out there as well.
• 1:02:03
  Tina Strachan: And you know, the advice given was if you are scared of it or you just don't like posting about yourself, then just kind of, you know.
• 1:02:12
  Tina Strachan: What do you like doing?
• 1:02:13
  Tina Strachan: Do you like cats and do you like reading cool post about post your book that you're reading at the moment and post funny things that your cat does or just the picture of your cat or a book and the cat together.
• 1:02:22
  Tina Strachan: You know, just, you know, is it food?
• 1:02:24
  Tina Strachan: Do you love food, post food?
• 1:02:26
  Tina Strachan: You know, just, just, just whatever.
• 1:02:28
  Tina Strachan: Kind of, just throw some stuff on there.
• 1:02:29
  Tina Strachan: And they did say it does sort of, it does show that you're willing to, you know, promote a little bit.
• 1:02:35
  Tina Strachan: 'cause you know, we've spoken about it a lot on the podcast.
• 1:02:37
  Tina Strachan: You do have to do some promotion yourself, of your book, um, when it is published.
• 1:02:41
  Tina Strachan: So, uh, yeah, it just kind of shows that you are serious about it, I think was the words that we use.
• 1:02:47
  Tina Strachan: That you're professional, you're serious about it because it is like, kind of like getting a, um, starting a business, isn't it?
• 1:02:54
  Tina Strachan: You need a way for people to contact you and, and see what you've got an offer.
• 1:02:58
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 1:02:59
  Sandy Bigna: Absolutely.
• 1:03:00
  Tina Strachan: Alright, ladies.
• 1:03:01
  Tina Strachan: Well, it has been incredible chatting to your, and I don't want to leave.
• 1:03:05
  Tina Strachan: I, I have so many other questions.
• 1:03:07
  Tina Strachan: I, I write when you'll speak and I put these little like stars, like ask more about that.
• 1:03:11
  Tina Strachan: But honestly, we could be here for three hours chatting about all the things that I've written down.
• 1:03:17
  Tina Strachan: Maybe we'll have to do a, a part two to it.
• 1:03:20
  Tina Strachan: But, um, yeah, so thank you so much for coming on the book deal podcast.
• 1:03:25
  Sandy Bigna: Oh, thank you so much for
• 1:03:26
  Lucie Stevens: having us.
• 1:03:27
  Lucie Stevens: It's been great.
• 1:03:28
  Sandy Bigna: It has lots of fun.
• 1:03:31
  Tina Strachan: Good luck with your second books.
• 1:03:33
  Sandy Bigna: Thank you.
• 1:03:34
  Sandy Bigna: I need it.
• 1:03:35
  Tina Strachan: You do not.
• 1:03:37
  Lucie Stevens: Good luck with your third Tina.
• 1:03:39
  Sandy Bigna: Yes, Tina.
• 1:03:41
  Tina Strachan: Thanks.
• 1:03:41
  Lucie Stevens: Amazing.
• 1:03:42
  Tina Strachan: Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast.
• 1:03:45
  Tina Strachan: We're able to bring you these weekly writerly chats because of our amazing patrons.
• 1:03:50
  Tina Strachan: Join the TPD family by becoming a member of our Patreon community at patreon com slash the book deal podcast.
• 1:03:59
  Tina Strachan: And if you love the pod, please give us a rating or review.
• 1:04:02
  Tina Strachan: And don't forget to follow us on
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 6: Instagram and.