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Santa Muerte with Cherry Parra · The Occult Rejects

0:02
Speaker 1: You see somethings going to happen.
0:06
Speaker 2: What's gonna happen?
0:15
Speaker 3: What?
0:24
Speaker 4: Welcome to the Occult Rejects. This episode, I got Cherry
0:29
Speaker 4: Power with us again. She was with us before we
0:33
Speaker 4: covered the book The Left Hand Path of taro Uh,
0:36
Speaker 4: Breaking Taboos, confronting shadows and achieving self love. She came
0:40
Speaker 4: on the show. She talked about it and the way
0:42
Speaker 4: that she looks at Taro highly highly suggests to go
0:46
Speaker 4: check out that episode after this one and check out
0:49
Speaker 4: a book. But before we introduce her, let me introduce Judith.
0:53
Speaker 4: We got the loon? What is going on? Judith? Will
0:55
Speaker 4: you hi?
0:56
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. Jerry, I am so happy
0:59
Speaker 3: to see you come back. You can reach me at
1:03
Speaker 3: YouTube and on x as the Loan and if you
1:07
Speaker 3: want to follow, my AUNC page is also on Instagram
1:10
Speaker 3: on Jesus under Judus Swanson.
1:13
Speaker 5: I can't wait for today's discussion.
1:15
Speaker 4: Thank you, And what about your You mentioned the YouTube? Correct? Yes, yes, okay,
1:21
Speaker 4: based just making sure making sure. Thank you very much, Judus.
1:25
Speaker 4: I appreciate you making it always. And Sherry, please let
1:29
Speaker 4: everybody know what your dealer is, you know, tell them
1:31
Speaker 4: about your book or whatever you'd like to promote, promote please, Oh.
1:34
Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm so happy to be back on here.
1:37
Speaker 1: Thanks for the space. Well, yes, I just published a
1:42
Speaker 1: book on by Star Books called The lat Hand Path
1:45
Speaker 1: of Taitoo and it's available anywhere books are sold. You
1:50
Speaker 1: can order it now. And I have been a chartist
1:54
Speaker 1: for over like Around the Day, Canday and a half.
1:58
Speaker 1: And I'm also a witch left hand Path, which obviously
2:02
Speaker 1: and you can find me on Instagram and threats at
2:06
Speaker 1: Cherry Red Underscore Tarot and that's you'll also find all
2:14
Speaker 1: of my links there. I have basically and mainly like
2:17
Speaker 1: a patron and yeah, I mean also if you're interested
2:21
Speaker 1: in reading, you can book from there. And I'm Mexican.
2:26
Speaker 1: I live in Mexico, and I'm very proud and very
2:28
Speaker 1: happy to be here.
2:29
Speaker 4: Awesome, Awesome, I love it. Thank you very much for
2:33
Speaker 4: coming on again. Really had a blast last time, and
2:35
Speaker 4: I'm sure it'll be great this time. I guess what
2:39
Speaker 4: I wanted to ask You might have probably covered it
2:42
Speaker 4: in the first time you're on slightly, but I didn't
2:44
Speaker 4: want to ask. I guess what was your exposure to
2:47
Speaker 4: Santa Morte? Was that something you sorted researching in were
2:50
Speaker 4: you're kind of exposed to it. You're just wondering how
2:52
Speaker 4: you came across that ms.
2:55
Speaker 1: It's everywhere here in Mexico because it's where it originated.
2:59
Speaker 1: So I, to be quite honest, I'm not exactly sure
3:04
Speaker 1: when was the first time that I came upon the
3:09
Speaker 1: Cult of Santamerte. It was probably on like media or
3:14
Speaker 1: the news, or maybe just on the street, you know,
3:19
Speaker 1: because she's literally everywhere. You'll find people wearing like pendants
3:24
Speaker 1: of her, people wearing her like on t shirts. You
3:28
Speaker 1: will see if you go to like occult stores here
3:31
Speaker 1: where they said where they sell things for witchcraft and such,
3:35
Speaker 1: you will find a lot of like effigies, like statues,
3:40
Speaker 1: candles with Santa Marta, and yeah, you just get curious
3:45
Speaker 1: and maybe you'll learn a little bit more about it.
3:47
Speaker 1: There have been there have been a lot of stories
3:49
Speaker 1: also in national news about her, and uh, yeah, it's
3:55
Speaker 1: it's pretty much already like permeated a lot of aspect
4:00
Speaker 1: of Mexican culture. Even those who are not like believers,
4:06
Speaker 1: they know, have a very general idea of what the
4:11
Speaker 1: cult is and what she represents. But of course there
4:16
Speaker 1: are as in most or I would say all aspects
4:20
Speaker 1: of belief. There are different ways to approach you know,
4:25
Speaker 1: every practice, every deity or entity. So yeah, I mean
4:30
Speaker 1: there's a lot of versions, and none of them is
4:34
Speaker 1: necessarily like valid or like invalid or true versus untrue.
4:39
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean as a Mexican, like you just know,
4:45
Speaker 1: and the connotation on media and the news is unfortunately
4:51
Speaker 1: largely negative. But I think that in the past five
4:55
Speaker 1: or ten years it's really beginning to shift a lot.
5:02
Speaker 4: One thing I did want to ask, I think you
5:04
Speaker 4: kind of even said how that might be a little
5:05
Speaker 4: bit differences. Would you say, like maybe in different like
5:10
Speaker 4: towns or areas, there might be a little bit of
5:13
Speaker 4: a different flare on the idea, maybe smaller like things
5:16
Speaker 4: that kind of go along with the local stuff.
5:21
Speaker 1: There are subtle variations. Because I think that the first
5:26
Speaker 1: recollections of something similar like to Santa Marte, where you
5:33
Speaker 1: can trace it back to the nineteen forties, maybe in
5:37
Speaker 1: like I know that it happened like in Vera Cruz,
5:42
Speaker 1: which is like on one of the coastal areas in Mexico,
5:48
Speaker 1: and in Vera Cruz you have like these place that
5:53
Speaker 1: is very famous nationwide, and I think even internationally the
5:58
Speaker 1: name is Catemaco, and it's kind of like if Mexico
6:02
Speaker 1: had like a witchcraft capital, that would be it, because
6:07
Speaker 1: there's a lot of like brujos, and there are different
6:10
Speaker 1: variants and all kinds of like witchcraft that is practiced there,
6:15
Speaker 1: and it has a lot of like there's a lot
6:17
Speaker 1: of stuff like urban legends and like scary stories and things.
6:22
Speaker 1: Some of them have truth behind them, some not. But
6:25
Speaker 1: it's like a place that is very known because a
6:30
Speaker 1: lot of people, some of them like powerful politicians and
6:36
Speaker 1: like people in Mexican entertainment business, they go there to
6:40
Speaker 1: get some work done, like spiritual work and boukhetia and
6:44
Speaker 1: that sort of thing, but like also you know, just
6:48
Speaker 1: regular people and over there. I think that there was
6:53
Speaker 1: a witch in the like myth to late sixties. Then
6:59
Speaker 1: his name was smart Dale, and I don't know which
7:01
Speaker 1: type of which craft he practiced, but apparently he was
7:07
Speaker 1: the one who first received like a visit from what
7:12
Speaker 1: would who would later be known as Santa Marte. And
7:16
Speaker 1: at first it was like a vision while he was
7:19
Speaker 1: doing this ritual, you know, and afterwards, you know, well,
7:24
Speaker 1: here in Mexico, Catholicism is very interspersed with these types
7:29
Speaker 1: of beliefs. So he went after the vision was over,
7:35
Speaker 1: he called upon a priest from like a local priest,
7:39
Speaker 1: because Santa Marte had asked like to be like not worshiped,
7:47
Speaker 1: but she was like saying that she would be there
7:49
Speaker 1: to help anyone who called for her, particularly like for
7:54
Speaker 1: things that had to do with having like a peaceful death,
7:59
Speaker 1: or to you know, get well if they were sick,
8:03
Speaker 1: things like that, and gave him a series of instructions
8:07
Speaker 1: on how to approach her. And after a division evaporated,
8:12
Speaker 1: there was kind of like what they say, like an
8:16
Speaker 1: image left on one of the walls where he worshiped.
8:21
Speaker 1: So he went and got this priest. But of course
8:24
Speaker 1: the priest was horrified because he's a Catholic prist, so
8:27
Speaker 1: he said that that was themonic and that he would
8:30
Speaker 1: have no part in it and that was not of God,
8:32
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. But Matteo went ahead and he said, well,
8:36
Speaker 1: it's okay if the Catholic church won't admit or won't
8:41
Speaker 1: help me, and he started, you know, this practice worshiping
8:46
Speaker 1: Santa Martin, and gradually people found out about it through
8:50
Speaker 1: word of mouth and it started, you know, growing and
8:53
Speaker 1: growing until it eventually reached Mexico City, also some parts
8:59
Speaker 1: of the northern side of Mexico. And the thing that
9:05
Speaker 1: makes Santa Morte kind of like you your question was
9:09
Speaker 1: about if like it varied according to the regions. I
9:13
Speaker 1: would say that maybe it has a different type of
9:21
Speaker 1: audience depending on of which part of the country you
9:24
Speaker 1: are in, because people like in the north of Mexico,
9:30
Speaker 1: of course, they they are like in the in the
9:32
Speaker 1: border and they deal with a lot of maybe uh
9:37
Speaker 1: threats from like organized crime and things like that, or
9:40
Speaker 1: they are involved in maybe some of these activities, or
9:44
Speaker 1: they want protection against their enemies things like that, so
9:48
Speaker 1: it takes on like a different flavor. They're kind of
9:51
Speaker 1: like more from against enemies. But if you go to
9:57
Speaker 1: Mexico City where there's like an altar, the first like
10:01
Speaker 1: really like nationwide and internationally known altar to Santa Martin
10:07
Speaker 1: in the Pito that was established that altar by a
10:10
Speaker 1: lady named Enriquetta. I don't remember if her her last
10:15
Speaker 1: name was Dromo or what is her name, but she
10:19
Speaker 1: put a statue of Santa Marte like in the garage
10:22
Speaker 1: of her house and opened it to the public. And
10:25
Speaker 1: that is where like I think most of the people
10:29
Speaker 1: go and pay their respects to Santa Martin. The flavor there,
10:34
Speaker 1: if you want to call it, that is a lot
10:36
Speaker 1: more like inclusive. It's not limited to like necessarily people
10:42
Speaker 1: who who are involved in organized crime or who are
10:45
Speaker 1: cops or who work in these types of like dangerous jobs.
10:51
Speaker 1: They are like your everyday people. You know, business people, parents,
11:00
Speaker 1: people from every walk of life basically go and worship
11:04
Speaker 1: Santa Marte there, live offerings, things like that, And I
11:08
Speaker 1: would say that maybe if we have to like categorize it,
11:13
Speaker 1: if you go north, it's kind of like a bit
11:16
Speaker 1: more connected with like danger and crime and things like that.
11:21
Speaker 1: If you go to Mexico City, it's like more inclusive outsiders.
11:26
Speaker 1: Also a lot of like gay people, people who work
11:29
Speaker 1: like sex workers and things like that they go and
11:33
Speaker 1: worship there as well. It's super inclusive. And if you
11:36
Speaker 1: go to Vera Cruz, maybe it has like a little
11:38
Speaker 1: bit of a more serious tone as far as you know,
11:41
Speaker 1: people who go to Katemaco there it's usually for specific
11:45
Speaker 1: like rituals and like petitions that are like of a
11:49
Speaker 1: certain level of commitment. So that would be kind of
11:54
Speaker 1: like maybe the three vibes that you would get, you know,
11:58
Speaker 1: from Santa Marte here in Mexico go. But there's a
12:01
Speaker 1: lot of other places where she's worshiped that maybe don't
12:04
Speaker 1: have as much of a visible presence online or on
12:10
Speaker 1: the media, but I'm sure that they exist. Yeah, I'm sorry.
12:16
Speaker 3: I have a cool question because here in the Western world,
12:19
Speaker 3: when you say Satan Moota, people think she's associated with death,
12:25
Speaker 3: but only But from how you explained that, it sounds
12:28
Speaker 3: like she's also associated with healing and protection. So what
12:32
Speaker 3: would so what exactly would she be just a patron
12:36
Speaker 3: of those three or is there more too?
12:40
Speaker 1: The thing is that the way that we see death
12:43
Speaker 1: is death and life are the same thing. And I
12:47
Speaker 1: don't know how fen you are with like in Mexico,
12:51
Speaker 1: even though it's a very misogynistic culture in many ways,
12:56
Speaker 1: but there's this contradiction and if you go into the
13:00
Speaker 1: houses of the average Mexican, if you look to the
13:03
Speaker 1: media and culturally, like our history and all that, it's
13:07
Speaker 1: a matriarchy in many ways. So when the Spanish colonized
13:14
Speaker 1: the indigenous Mexicans, what they did was to like fuse
13:19
Speaker 1: the virgin Mary with the local feminine deities. So Santa
13:26
Speaker 1: Marte kind of like I think sprong as a reaction
13:31
Speaker 1: to against that many centuries later, you know, because in Mexico,
13:37
Speaker 1: death has always not only been respected and revered and
13:41
Speaker 1: celebrated and worshiped, it has like it's part of our
13:45
Speaker 1: daily lives. And we understand we don't really see a
13:49
Speaker 1: difference at the end of the day when it comes
13:52
Speaker 1: to you know, life and death. It's part of like
13:55
Speaker 1: one same cycle. It's like life and existence in it's
13:59
Speaker 1: to tell. So the way that we talk about that
14:05
Speaker 1: and relate to it is very familiar. It's like someone
14:10
Speaker 1: we've known our whole lives, even if we are like
14:14
Speaker 1: not devotees of Santa Marte, but it's always there. I mean,
14:18
Speaker 1: we're not afraid to talk about it because yeah, it's
14:23
Speaker 1: very different from here than you know, from in the
14:26
Speaker 1: United States, because you have like a different kind of
14:30
Speaker 1: religious thinking that plays the foundations of the United States.
14:35
Speaker 1: It's kind of like more like evangelistic, and it was
14:41
Speaker 1: very different and over here it was like the brutality
14:45
Speaker 1: of Catholicism, you know, the Inquisition and all that. But
14:49
Speaker 1: we already were like really hardcore here. I mean, the
14:53
Speaker 1: rituals and the beliefs that we had here, and like
14:55
Speaker 1: that's what's looked like in the face and in the US,
14:59
Speaker 1: like this never happened, you know, and there were there
15:03
Speaker 1: was no fusion of traditions over there and over here,
15:07
Speaker 1: there was like a complete fusion of like cultures and beliefs.
15:11
Speaker 1: So it's I wouldn't say that she's a patron of
15:17
Speaker 1: this and this and this specifically, because I know of
15:21
Speaker 1: people here in Mexico who will go to her for
15:24
Speaker 1: like pretty much anything and everything. When you go to
15:27
Speaker 1: some of these like occult esoteric stores here, you will
15:31
Speaker 1: find effigies and candles for santamorte, for health, for like abundance,
15:39
Speaker 1: for love. You will find like for protection, for like
15:44
Speaker 1: legal justice. You know, people who have like cases in
15:47
Speaker 1: quarter or relatives who are in prison. Whatever. I mean,
15:52
Speaker 1: there's a candle for that, you know. So it's not
15:56
Speaker 1: like she's devoted specifically to one thing. She's like she
16:00
Speaker 1: covers many things.
16:02
Speaker 4: Yeah, do you think that part right there? Her covering
16:05
Speaker 4: many things could even be a little bit of like
16:07
Speaker 4: kind of like Mary's Catholic like influence or not so
16:11
Speaker 4: much influence. But like the other other version, you know
16:15
Speaker 4: what I'm saying, because you go to marry for anything. Yeah,
16:19
Speaker 4: you could see that like maybe crossing over.
16:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean you still like the aparage.
16:26
Speaker 1: Mexican is very quada lupano, which is like, you know,
16:29
Speaker 1: devoted to the virgin of But there are so many others,
16:33
Speaker 1: particularly in recent times, that you know, that figure like
16:37
Speaker 1: of the Benevolent Mother no longer cuts it because you
16:45
Speaker 1: have people who are like on the fringes of society
16:50
Speaker 1: who are fighting like to stay alive, whether because they're
16:54
Speaker 1: what they do for a living is dangerous, or maybe
16:57
Speaker 1: they make very little money, or or they are you know,
17:01
Speaker 1: struggling with really difficult things, you know, alcoholism, drug dependence
17:09
Speaker 1: and sort of thing. And I think that Santa Marte
17:13
Speaker 1: comes across is very universal and therefore non judgmental. There
17:20
Speaker 1: are some traits, of course, of the connection with Catholicism
17:25
Speaker 1: as far as like some people do like incorporate her
17:29
Speaker 1: into sort of like masses and they say Catholic prayers
17:34
Speaker 1: to her in her honor, and like there's no rule book,
17:38
Speaker 1: it's you can't say this is allowed, and this is
17:41
Speaker 1: not allowed because everyone here makes makes their their beliefs
17:47
Speaker 1: and their like practice and their faith, their own but
17:52
Speaker 1: it's kind of like more inclusive and more universal because
17:57
Speaker 1: even if let's say it's someone didn't have a mother figure,
18:02
Speaker 1: or if their mother figure was very lacking or very negative,
18:07
Speaker 1: Santa Marte is like truly universal because she connects with
18:12
Speaker 1: us all because she was there at the beginning and
18:14
Speaker 1: she will be there at the end regardless of anything
18:18
Speaker 1: we do. So I think that alone is what makes
18:22
Speaker 1: her like a very good alternative for people who are
18:27
Speaker 1: looking for a protector that is completely accepting and someone
18:36
Speaker 1: who still has that mothering sense, you know. But and
18:41
Speaker 1: she manifested like like with feminine energy from the beginning
18:46
Speaker 1: to this witch that I mentioned. But yeah, I mean
18:51
Speaker 1: I think that's that's the thing with Santa Marte. That's
18:55
Speaker 1: why she's like quickly, if not replacing like the Vision
18:59
Speaker 1: Delu aka the Virgin Mary Mexican version, maybe she's not
19:04
Speaker 1: replacing fully, but she is like competing like on very
19:08
Speaker 1: similar levels of like endearment and respect and attention.
19:16
Speaker 4: Thank you, you mentioned something about Guadalupe, not to get
19:23
Speaker 4: off the topic. That's the same one that I think.
19:27
Speaker 4: It's like a painting or whatever where now they're finding
19:29
Speaker 4: that might be like music in the air and there's
19:30
Speaker 4: actually like stuff within her eyes. I covered something a
19:34
Speaker 4: long time ago about like this painting of Guadalupe. There's
19:37
Speaker 4: some wild stuff in that thing. I don't know that's
19:39
Speaker 4: the same thing.
19:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I'm a bit skeptical because anything
19:45
Speaker 1: that comes from the Catholic Church directly and that is
19:48
Speaker 1: kind of sponsored by them, I'm very skeptical of. So. Yeah,
19:52
Speaker 1: I know that there have been like lots of studies
19:54
Speaker 1: on that figure and that sort of thing. I basically
20:01
Speaker 1: see it as an instrument of like colonial manipulation and
20:05
Speaker 1: mind control. So it has taken a life of its
20:10
Speaker 1: own because of the faith of like so many millions
20:14
Speaker 1: and millions of Mexicans for centuries. So now it has
20:18
Speaker 1: like a different type of value, and I wouldn't be
20:22
Speaker 1: able to like so easily discounted. But as far as
20:25
Speaker 1: you know, there being like like evidence and proof, I
20:29
Speaker 1: would be a bit skeptical about that.
20:33
Speaker 4: Yeah, what is so I guess what would be some practice?
20:41
Speaker 4: Is there any like specific practices or I do know,
20:44
Speaker 4: I think I could be wrong. Isn't there like once
20:46
Speaker 4: a month, like they pray with rosary beads? Or something
20:48
Speaker 4: like that's kind of a tradition or something like that,
20:51
Speaker 4: Like what kind of practices go wrong.
20:52
Speaker 1: With Yeah, I mean, as I said, some people like
20:58
Speaker 1: hold masses in her own this has to be done
21:01
Speaker 1: like kind of like outside of Catholic Church because they
21:04
Speaker 1: don't approve of it, and it's like admitted as an
21:08
Speaker 1: official like saying by any means, but people still like
21:13
Speaker 1: let's say that you happen to find a priest that
21:16
Speaker 1: is a Catholic ordained priest, but maybe they are like
21:19
Speaker 1: open or accepting of this idea, like even if non officially,
21:24
Speaker 1: maybe you can ask a priest to like come to
21:26
Speaker 1: your home and hold a mass in order of Santa Marte.
21:30
Speaker 1: I'm sure that happens. And as I said, there is
21:33
Speaker 1: no set rule book. Yeah, people do row adios for her,
21:39
Speaker 1: but I don't know, like I think that maybe is
21:42
Speaker 1: like once a day. It can be once a day
21:45
Speaker 1: or three times a day.
21:47
Speaker 6: You know, it did the amount of devotion and what
21:50
Speaker 6: people promise to Santa Marte, you know, and one important
21:57
Speaker 6: thing is that you never like with Morte.
22:01
Speaker 1: Devotion to her and like being in connection with her
22:05
Speaker 1: comes very differently, like you say, from other types of
22:10
Speaker 1: you know, practices or like believe systems, because she is
22:15
Speaker 1: considered more like a member of your family. You know,
22:19
Speaker 1: once that she is present in your in your life,
22:22
Speaker 1: in your house, you are expected to treat her as family.
22:26
Speaker 1: So this is why the offerings people bring her can
22:29
Speaker 1: be like money, like pour her drinks, bring her cigarettes.
22:34
Speaker 1: Some people bring her like marijuana cigarettes if they if
22:38
Speaker 1: they themselves like are users fools. And you are expected
22:44
Speaker 1: to like talk to her as you would talk to
22:46
Speaker 1: like a friend over drinks, you know, or over like
22:49
Speaker 1: a cup of coffee.
22:51
Speaker 4: You know.
22:52
Speaker 1: So it is a very personal and in a way
22:56
Speaker 1: informal practice. But you know, those those who like do
23:01
Speaker 1: more elaborate rituals for like specific purposes that I wouldn't
23:05
Speaker 1: know because I would have to have like personal knowledge
23:09
Speaker 1: or involvement in that, and so far I haven't like
23:12
Speaker 1: participated in any such ceremonies or rituals. I know that
23:17
Speaker 1: there are people that do bring like maybe sacrifices money,
23:22
Speaker 1: of course, but usually it's very very like personal, and
23:31
Speaker 1: there is no like organism or soul authority that sanctions
23:37
Speaker 1: how to petition her or how to like work with her,
23:42
Speaker 1: or like present your devotion to her. So it would
23:47
Speaker 1: be kind of like difficult to like establish because you know,
23:51
Speaker 1: there's a pilgrimage around like maybe once a year that
23:55
Speaker 1: some people do to this alter in Mexico City, in Tepito.
24:00
Speaker 1: I don't know the I'm not sure right now. It
24:02
Speaker 1: doesn't come to mind the exact date when this happens.
24:06
Speaker 1: But I mean, yeah, people do like a big celebration there.
24:09
Speaker 1: They bring things, they bring their effigies and and all
24:12
Speaker 1: of that, but it's I don't think that it can
24:18
Speaker 1: be said that there are like specific procedures that are
24:23
Speaker 1: to be followed there.
24:24
Speaker 2: Yeah.
24:27
Speaker 4: Yeah, Now have you ever been to well what about
24:32
Speaker 4: day of the day?
24:34
Speaker 1: Uh huh. Well, the thing is that day of the
24:37
Speaker 1: day is not precisely like a celebration of Santa Marte.
24:41
Speaker 1: It is connected. Day of the day is celebrated by
24:48
Speaker 1: almost i would say every Mexican household in some way.
24:54
Speaker 1: That celebration has existed since pre Hispanic times because over
24:59
Speaker 1: here back then there was like the goddess was Mickland
25:04
Speaker 1: tequickly and she had like this male counterpart. Also, mick
25:10
Speaker 1: Gland was a place where where the souls of the
25:13
Speaker 1: dead had to like get to after you know, dying
25:17
Speaker 1: in this world, and there was like a series of
25:22
Speaker 1: obstacles that they needed to surpass in order to reach
25:25
Speaker 1: that destination. So that's why mickland tequickly was like worshiped
25:29
Speaker 1: because people were like wanted safe passage for the spirits
25:35
Speaker 1: of their deceased. So from then, well after then the
25:40
Speaker 1: conquista from the Spanish and Catholicism, it intertwines with those beliefs.
25:47
Speaker 1: And right now, I mean it's like usually Day of
25:50
Speaker 1: the Dead is it starts the celebrations on the first
25:55
Speaker 1: of November, which is what we call for the little death,
26:00
Speaker 1: like the young death, like children who especially those who
26:06
Speaker 1: died without being baptized according to the Catholic Church, but
26:10
Speaker 1: in general, you know, children and like the younger death,
26:15
Speaker 1: you know, start arriving on November first, and then November
26:19
Speaker 1: second is when like the older death arrived. And you said,
26:24
Speaker 1: up this altar if you want on your homes decorated
26:29
Speaker 1: in specific ways that still carry significance from all the
26:34
Speaker 1: way from back from Prospanic times. You know the flowers
26:38
Speaker 1: and pasucci leon and these decorative elements, you know, these
26:45
Speaker 1: picado which is like paper decorated with like motives and
26:49
Speaker 1: you know, you see dead. You can see also you
26:51
Speaker 1: know Catholic saints right now, everything that is used to
26:56
Speaker 1: decorate and you place usually it's food and drink. It
27:00
Speaker 1: used to be like actual real food, real drinks. That
27:03
Speaker 1: the death that your loved ones who have died, that
27:07
Speaker 1: they used to enjoy when they were living. So you
27:10
Speaker 1: put that there in a corner of your home with
27:13
Speaker 1: some candles. People also if they go like all the way,
27:20
Speaker 1: they like to create like a path with like sempasuchial
27:24
Speaker 1: flowers from the entrance leading to the altar, so that
27:28
Speaker 1: the spirits and the source of the death can find
27:31
Speaker 1: their way to the altar. But if not, I mean
27:35
Speaker 1: in most businesses and homes and offices and all that
27:39
Speaker 1: you'll find like small altars just you know, with photographs,
27:43
Speaker 1: also possessions of like personal belongings of the deceased and
27:49
Speaker 1: things like that and commemorating them the food and the drink.
27:52
Speaker 1: Sometimes they are replaced with like pretend food and drink. Know,
28:00
Speaker 1: if you can't have like actual food there because of
28:03
Speaker 1: you know, attracting flies or whatever reason, you are at
28:06
Speaker 1: least you know, allowed to place like a like a
28:09
Speaker 1: simulate a plate of food or things like that, you know,
28:13
Speaker 1: and cigarettes. People like to leave that out in case
28:16
Speaker 1: they're deceased. Relatives or friends like to smoke drink as well.
28:23
Speaker 1: So but over there, curiously, I mean that is in
28:27
Speaker 1: death is implicit, but it's I wouldn't say it's the
28:30
Speaker 1: same as like a Santa Marta celebration. A lot of
28:33
Speaker 1: people probably like bring her out if they are believers
28:37
Speaker 1: in Santa Marte, but if not, I mean it can
28:40
Speaker 1: be like independent from.
28:41
Speaker 2: That, thank you.
28:48
Speaker 6: Yeah.
28:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, Actually what you just said is to me, it's
28:52
Speaker 3: a first you said it's a whole month. It's not
28:54
Speaker 3: just those two days because the days that you gave
28:58
Speaker 3: coincide with three major holidays. Not you have Halloween when
29:01
Speaker 3: the VELAs ten, and then you have all Saintsday and
29:04
Speaker 3: all Thursday.
29:05
Speaker 5: So I found that interesting.
29:08
Speaker 1: So it's like no good, Yeah, sorry. Here in Mexico,
29:15
Speaker 1: I mean, we do know about Halloween, and there are
29:18
Speaker 1: a lot of parties, especially you know, Halloween theme parties,
29:21
Speaker 1: but it's not approached from like a like a religious
29:25
Speaker 1: point of view or in any way or a spiritual
29:27
Speaker 1: point of view, unless you are like following those traditions.
29:33
Speaker 1: You know, there are weekend witches here in Mexico, not
29:37
Speaker 1: as many as in the US or elsewhere, but there
29:40
Speaker 1: are some of them, and those people who follow those
29:44
Speaker 1: traditions will celebrate also, so whay and you know, do
29:48
Speaker 1: something those days. But the celebration of the day of
29:51
Speaker 1: the death usually comprises strictly of like November first and
29:56
Speaker 1: November second. So yeah, I.
30:02
Speaker 5: Also have another one.
30:03
Speaker 3: I don't know if you addressed it earlier, but does
30:07
Speaker 3: she have sometime when they have a dedicated day for
30:11
Speaker 3: those who celebrate her, particularly like this day.
30:15
Speaker 1: I seem to remember they do, but I can't remember
30:19
Speaker 1: the date, so that's why I don't want to venture anything.
30:23
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think that once a year there's a
30:27
Speaker 1: celebration and a week celebration held in that altar in
30:31
Speaker 1: Mexico City, and people, you know, some people who come
30:36
Speaker 1: from other places in the country or the world travel
30:40
Speaker 1: there to pay their respects on that day. I do
30:43
Speaker 1: have that because I think that there was a story
30:46
Speaker 1: on the news and the interview Enriquetta, who is the
30:49
Speaker 1: founder of that altar and the keeper of it. But
30:53
Speaker 1: I don't remember which day it is, so I'm not
30:56
Speaker 1: even sure if it coincides with like Day of the day,
30:59
Speaker 1: or if it's a different day.
31:02
Speaker 4: There is a I know there's a shrine anniversary November first,
31:06
Speaker 4: and Torpedo. Okay, okay, good you're talking about Maybe.
31:12
Speaker 5: I do have another question for you.
31:16
Speaker 3: Now, Mostly when people deal with deities, even if they
31:21
Speaker 3: coincide with the Catholic saints, because that's usually some traditions,
31:26
Speaker 3: that's how they hide their worship for them.
31:30
Speaker 5: But have you found her in other parts of the world.
31:36
Speaker 1: I haven't found her, but there it is documented that
31:41
Speaker 1: there are Santa Morte worshipers nearly all over the world.
31:49
Speaker 1: I have read that in several articles. And I think
31:54
Speaker 1: that there's a book that came out a few years
31:58
Speaker 1: ago by an American woman who, like I remember because
32:05
Speaker 1: it was kind of controversial when it came out because
32:09
Speaker 1: she's like white and American and she I think she's
32:12
Speaker 1: an academic, but she wrote this book about Santa Martin.
32:16
Speaker 1: Some people were like really angry. But I think that
32:19
Speaker 1: she was really not appropriating it. It was just like
32:24
Speaker 1: she does I don't. I think that she is a
32:27
Speaker 1: believer in Santa Marte, but I don't think it was
32:31
Speaker 1: presented as if like she found it or she started
32:35
Speaker 1: the whole thing. So but in that book, I think
32:39
Speaker 1: I believe that that's why it was published because there's
32:42
Speaker 1: a growing interest and in all over the world for
32:47
Speaker 1: Santa Marte, you know, because it is unusual that in
32:52
Speaker 1: these times we're living in that there is like a
32:55
Speaker 1: new faith that came out quite recently and also gains
33:01
Speaker 1: a lot of traction, you know. So yeah, I mean
33:05
Speaker 1: I think that there is There are a lot of
33:09
Speaker 1: people all over the world who who do follow and
33:14
Speaker 1: believe in her, not necessarily all of them like Mexicans,
33:18
Speaker 1: like who maybe are living elsewhere, but people from different nationalities.
33:25
Speaker 5: Sorry do they.
33:27
Speaker 3: But the name is the same. It's still Santa Marta.
33:30
Speaker 3: They don't have like a different name for her, like like.
33:36
Speaker 1: In whatever I think that they call it. There is
33:43
Speaker 1: a figure they have I think it's San Pasqual or
33:46
Speaker 1: something like that that in practice it's very similar. So
33:50
Speaker 1: it's kind of like likened to the Santa Martin in
33:55
Speaker 1: many ways. And I don't know if it's in Argentine
33:58
Speaker 1: or something. They call it San Lamerte, which is like
34:03
Speaker 1: a kind of like a forced masculinization because it's kind
34:08
Speaker 1: of like sand and then Lamerte, So I don't know.
34:11
Speaker 1: I mean in Latin America, there is that that very
34:15
Speaker 1: old phenomenon and it's somewhat similar, but it's not as
34:19
Speaker 1: as formed as it is here in Mexico, you know,
34:22
Speaker 1: by comparison. And also I think that some people find
34:29
Speaker 1: similarities between some of the deities in Palomajumbe or Santa
34:37
Speaker 1: Ria and what I was doing research also for for
34:42
Speaker 1: this conversation. It's funny because I think that some people,
34:47
Speaker 1: because of the language barriers, they might think that Santa
34:52
Speaker 1: Ria is a cult of Santa Marte. But no, I mean,
34:55
Speaker 1: Santa Ria is a very different thing. It's a different
34:59
Speaker 1: tradition and it's like a whole practice with like a
35:02
Speaker 1: collection of like deities that I incorporated there and Santa Marte,
35:07
Speaker 1: like the votis of Santa Marte. Some people will call
35:11
Speaker 1: them Santeo's, But you have to then ask are you
35:15
Speaker 1: saying you are a Santeo because you are a devotee
35:19
Speaker 1: of Santa Marte or because you are like in Santaia
35:24
Speaker 1: and a practitioner of Santa Ria. Because it's two different things.
35:28
Speaker 1: So that would be like the only observation that I
35:31
Speaker 1: have there, and I don't know of any other like
35:35
Speaker 1: similar practices that kind of like use like with the
35:42
Speaker 1: effigy or the likeness of Santa Marteo that called it Differently,
35:47
Speaker 1: those instances that I just spoke about are the only
35:50
Speaker 1: ones that I that I can recall and say that, okay,
35:53
Speaker 1: maybe this this or that, But to my knowledge, it
35:58
Speaker 1: has not like being because she's like a syncretic version
36:06
Speaker 1: of as I mentioned, like the Virgin figure, but in
36:10
Speaker 1: some ways it looks like her, but it's like it's
36:13
Speaker 1: not like it's just like the skeleton with these ropes,
36:17
Speaker 1: and it's approached in the same way as people would
36:20
Speaker 1: approach a saint, a Catholic saint, but she's not a
36:24
Speaker 1: recognized like Catholic saint of course. So yeah, I mean
36:29
Speaker 1: I don't think that it's like that it exists as
36:34
Speaker 1: it is in other countries or like mythologies or practices.
36:41
Speaker 3: Thank you for clearing that up, because I actually made
36:44
Speaker 3: that mistake. I actually thought that she was part of Santaria, right,
36:50
Speaker 3: So actually, yeah.
36:52
Speaker 1: It's different.
36:53
Speaker 4: Yeah, I had a question, Oh I think I mean
37:03
Speaker 4: I remember now, but I just I think you pretty
37:05
Speaker 4: much covered it, and I would assume it's probably not
37:08
Speaker 4: really as I was going to ask, is there other
37:12
Speaker 4: maybe God is that you could see maybe having a
37:17
Speaker 4: little bit of her attributes. But I mean I think
37:20
Speaker 4: that's kind of Mary, you said before. But besides Mary,
37:22
Speaker 4: would there be anybody else?
37:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I am not an authority, but I
37:28
Speaker 1: think that in many cultures, like in Europe and Indian Americas,
37:35
Speaker 1: and even in like the East, you may have like
37:40
Speaker 1: a lot of like deities for like entities that kind
37:44
Speaker 1: of like symbolize death. But I don't know if we
37:50
Speaker 1: could talk about like the same level of worship or
37:54
Speaker 1: the same popularity, because these are of course ties to
37:59
Speaker 1: like all ethnicity in many instances. So I the thing
38:05
Speaker 1: that is different about Santa Marte is that she's very
38:09
Speaker 1: like open and welcoming, so because it doesn't have like
38:14
Speaker 1: like that ethnic and cultural law if you want to
38:20
Speaker 1: view it like that. So yeah, I mean I don't
38:26
Speaker 1: think that in that sense I could like compare her
38:32
Speaker 1: with like actual like goddesses or gods of like death
38:36
Speaker 1: and and such things in other cultures. I mean you
38:41
Speaker 1: can maybe find like that common root, which is of
38:44
Speaker 1: course you know, the life force behind all of them,
38:48
Speaker 1: but they are approaching extremely different ways, and some of
38:52
Speaker 1: them are like not traditions that are alive. They are
38:57
Speaker 1: maybe some of them still are, but it's like very
39:00
Speaker 1: closed because as I said, it's very linked to you know,
39:04
Speaker 1: ethnicity and uh time and place. You know, the location
39:08
Speaker 1: is important in such things. So in that sense, it's
39:12
Speaker 1: it would be too different from you know, Santamorte. I'm
39:16
Speaker 1: sure that in India there are several deities that can
39:20
Speaker 1: be likened to Santamorte in some aspects. But yeah, I
39:26
Speaker 1: mean that would be kind of like a good opportunity
39:31
Speaker 1: for someone like to do like a comparative mythology study
39:37
Speaker 1: or comparative theology in that sense. Uh, because yeah, I mean,
39:43
Speaker 1: it's by no means is it the only instance of
39:47
Speaker 1: like the divinization of death. You know, it's it's like
39:51
Speaker 1: just maybe the most recent and the most popular iteration,
39:55
Speaker 1: especially nowadays.
39:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Judy.
40:04
Speaker 4: Do you have anything you want ask?
40:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wanted to because since you said she's not
40:09
Speaker 3: associated with Santa Aria, she's.
40:12
Speaker 5: Not associated with any religious structure.
40:17
Speaker 1: At all. She stamped in that sense from the Catholic tradition,
40:26
Speaker 1: so you will find, you know, the figure itself physically
40:30
Speaker 1: has a lot of blatant similarities with the way that
40:33
Speaker 1: saints are portrayed in Catholic churches, and people will do
40:39
Speaker 1: Novenaz prayer, rosaries, do certain Catholic prayers towards her, but
40:44
Speaker 1: there is no structure. Because that's an interesting thing, and
40:49
Speaker 1: I'm glad that you asked this. There have been attempts
40:53
Speaker 1: from the believers themselves or the leaders of these cults
40:57
Speaker 1: to Santa Martin to kind of like regulated before, you know,
41:03
Speaker 1: the government, for example here in Mexico, like make it
41:07
Speaker 1: like an accepted religion, you know, for people to enter
41:12
Speaker 1: onto their documents, what religion are you, Santa Devil d.
41:17
Speaker 1: But it lasted for like two or three years, I
41:21
Speaker 1: think in the early two thousands or something, but then
41:26
Speaker 1: the government found irregularities with the issue is that the
41:31
Speaker 1: people trying to make her official later turned out to
41:36
Speaker 1: be like actual criminals, you know, doing things that were
41:41
Speaker 1: above the law. So of course that brings the whole
41:45
Speaker 1: thing down. And that's one thing that I found very
41:48
Speaker 1: meaningful while I was researching for our conversation, because it
41:53
Speaker 1: turns out that you cannot or should not because nobody
41:58
Speaker 1: tells you what you can or cannot do, because again,
42:01
Speaker 1: there is no structure, you know, to follow but it
42:06
Speaker 1: is not well seen or like accepted to kind of
42:12
Speaker 1: go to her and ask her, I want you to
42:15
Speaker 1: kill this person or get rid of this person because
42:20
Speaker 1: like they're in my way or whatever. You know, you
42:25
Speaker 1: have to ask her for things that are just and
42:29
Speaker 1: kind of like fair and not like she's not a
42:32
Speaker 1: hit man, you know, So some things you can ask her,
42:38
Speaker 1: you know, for protection for like success and abundance, and
42:42
Speaker 1: that way she can help you if if your heart
42:46
Speaker 1: is like puring that intention and you're bring being straightforward
42:50
Speaker 1: with her and respecting her in the way that you should,
42:55
Speaker 1: she can't help you attain those things, you know, but
43:00
Speaker 1: not by kind of like saying, you know, getting rid
43:05
Speaker 1: of obstacles in this brutal ways so that you can
43:08
Speaker 1: profit of it. I mean, some people very likely have
43:13
Speaker 1: done this, and then in the end of course, these
43:17
Speaker 1: things never turn out well. Which when I was reading
43:20
Speaker 1: about all those there have been tours really attempts by
43:24
Speaker 1: different people to kind of like make her like an
43:27
Speaker 1: established government acknowledged faith or cult, and they have never
43:35
Speaker 1: kind of like succeeded because they have you know, they
43:41
Speaker 1: haven't had the best intentions. So I found that like
43:44
Speaker 1: very meaningful you know that you can of course ask
43:49
Speaker 1: her for support for whichever you need support with, particularly
43:54
Speaker 1: with you know, protection and health or having a peaceful death,
44:00
Speaker 1: which came up a lot in my research, but you
44:04
Speaker 1: cannot like ask her to like It's not contrary to
44:10
Speaker 1: what isn't popular media and on the news, She's not.
44:14
Speaker 1: I wouldn't categorize her as like a bineful type of
44:20
Speaker 1: cult or painful work. I'm sure people do bainful work
44:25
Speaker 1: on her behalf or under her, but inherently it was not.
44:32
Speaker 1: It wasn't like it didn't originate with those intentions. I
44:37
Speaker 1: found that it was like very evenevolent and even you
44:41
Speaker 1: know that story about the witch who first saw her
44:44
Speaker 1: in Katemaco vera cruzz witch Matt Deel for his whole
44:48
Speaker 1: adult life after the first time he like witnessed this apparition,
44:54
Speaker 1: he devoted himself to her, and he reached an old
44:57
Speaker 1: age and it was when it was sti for him
45:00
Speaker 1: to die he saw her again. But this time he
45:05
Speaker 1: said that he saw like a little girl dressed in white,
45:09
Speaker 1: and she kind of basically came and told him that
45:11
Speaker 1: she wanted to thank him for everything he had done,
45:16
Speaker 1: you know, to get her to others who could need
45:19
Speaker 1: her help and such, and that was the last time
45:21
Speaker 1: he saw her. So to me, it was meaningful that
45:24
Speaker 1: the first time he saw her or she didn't like
45:28
Speaker 1: it was not during a painful ritual and it was
45:32
Speaker 1: a message about, you know, offering help and comfort and
45:35
Speaker 1: protection to people, not like as like an avenger or
45:40
Speaker 1: like something that was more violent and in the end,
45:44
Speaker 1: at the end of his life, while he saw like
45:46
Speaker 1: basically a child dressed in white, which is also I
45:50
Speaker 1: think one of the most positive images that you can
45:55
Speaker 1: associate with any like spiritual presence of any sort. So
46:01
Speaker 1: I think that I'm not saying that people do not
46:04
Speaker 1: use or try to use Santa Marte to kind of
46:08
Speaker 1: like do other types of ritual work that is more painful,
46:12
Speaker 1: but the origins of it are like very far from
46:18
Speaker 1: that as far as I have researched.
46:26
Speaker 3: So it sounds she's very unique, and I could see
46:30
Speaker 3: how the misunderstanding could come on how people view her
46:34
Speaker 3: outside of the culture, because I'm looking outside, looking in
46:39
Speaker 3: out in the Western world, and most ddis you mentioned
46:44
Speaker 3: are either associated with either an organization or a patheon,
46:50
Speaker 3: but she's something by herself. There is no she didn't
46:54
Speaker 3: come down and lay on the law and you even
46:57
Speaker 3: said it, which is something people try to emulate. But
47:01
Speaker 3: with her, to have a relationshipship with her, you have
47:04
Speaker 3: to actually have a friendship. You have to actually have
47:07
Speaker 3: a relationship, which is completely different. And I think, unfortunately
47:13
Speaker 3: this is where a lot of the misunderstanding come.
47:15
Speaker 5: Because if you came to me.
47:19
Speaker 3: And I didn't know about anything like this, and you
47:21
Speaker 3: say you prayed a Sata Mouta, first, I would think
47:25
Speaker 3: you were dealing with Santa Ria. Second, I would think
47:28
Speaker 3: that she came from Catholicism, which she did not. So
47:32
Speaker 3: it's not even associated.
47:34
Speaker 1: She's just.
47:37
Speaker 3: She's a manifestation of hope. If I misspeak, please forgive me.
47:42
Speaker 3: From this point of view, for those who are needy
47:46
Speaker 3: in the I would say, in my opinion, I think
47:50
Speaker 3: she comes more from the Native American side of the
47:54
Speaker 3: indigenous people of Mexico, and that's why we in the
47:59
Speaker 3: western world I'd have a problem understanding her completely and
48:03
Speaker 3: mis labeling her.
48:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, to me, like a Mexican of the twentieth twenty
48:14
Speaker 1: first century, she is very syncretic because a lot of
48:19
Speaker 1: her visually remits me or reminds me of Catholicism, but
48:25
Speaker 1: when the deeper you find nothing of that and you
48:30
Speaker 1: find other things. So it's kind of like a perfect
48:33
Speaker 1: blend for me personally. It's kind of like if the
48:41
Speaker 1: image of the virgen dead a Lupe was deprived and
48:46
Speaker 1: cleansed from all of that charge of colonialism, then you
48:51
Speaker 1: would have Santamerte, you know, for me, for me, But
48:56
Speaker 1: I don't think like if you go to the average
48:58
Speaker 1: like Mexican Santa Marte devotee, they won't say that. They
49:02
Speaker 1: will just tell you that they love her and that
49:05
Speaker 1: she has been with them through the worst moments of
49:08
Speaker 1: their lives and that she has helped them do this
49:10
Speaker 1: and this or that or solve this and this and
49:13
Speaker 1: that problem. And it's very very personal. So it's like
49:17
Speaker 1: a relationship with your own mother in a way. But
49:21
Speaker 1: it's not like a deity of the divine feminine. It's
49:24
Speaker 1: like a lot more universal. So it's very it takes
49:29
Speaker 1: a lot to understand from someone looking from the outside,
49:33
Speaker 1: you know, And even for me, I mean, I would
49:35
Speaker 1: have to die deeper into her low and the practices
49:39
Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. I am somewhat close because
49:42
Speaker 1: someone I am like very close with and someone that
49:46
Speaker 1: I love very very much is kind of like a
49:49
Speaker 1: devotee in her own way of Santa Marte. So I
49:53
Speaker 1: have seen firsthand that relationship develop and it's very organic,
49:58
Speaker 1: and it's very unique, and it's very non like, not
50:02
Speaker 1: demanding in the way that so many other deities or
50:05
Speaker 1: saints are, you know, it's very different. So yeah, I mean,
50:10
Speaker 1: I think it's it's one of the reasons why it's
50:14
Speaker 1: it's it's worship and it's called its expanding so rapidly,
50:21
Speaker 1: and I think that given the times we're living, it
50:24
Speaker 1: will expand even more. She is, you know, she protects outsiders,
50:28
Speaker 1: which means that she protects immigrants, and she is on
50:31
Speaker 1: the side of usually justice, not because she is personally
50:35
Speaker 1: invested in one side or the other, but because like
50:39
Speaker 1: death comes for us all, so you cannot have favorites
50:43
Speaker 1: in that sense. So I think that it just echoes
50:48
Speaker 1: a lot on the circumstances that so many of us
50:51
Speaker 1: are going through right now. So I expect to see
50:54
Speaker 1: her take a lot more protagonism in the coming decades.
50:59
Speaker 4: Even it was a really good question, j and I
51:06
Speaker 4: wasn't really looking at it from that angle, but that
51:08
Speaker 4: is a really good point.
51:11
Speaker 2: It's almost as if Yeah.
51:13
Speaker 4: Very interesting.
51:14
Speaker 2: Yeah.
51:15
Speaker 4: Uh. One thing I did want to ask and kind
51:17
Speaker 4: of bring up the kind of go back a little
51:19
Speaker 4: bit before. But I mean I think we kind of
51:20
Speaker 4: talked on it a little bit already. But uh, would
51:23
Speaker 4: you think maybe due to I guess maybe a criminal activity,
51:28
Speaker 4: cartels or even how pop culture will associate it with it.
51:33
Speaker 4: I mean, this is I was just I'm just gonna
51:35
Speaker 4: put it out there, you know, a little bit more
51:36
Speaker 4: conspiracy theory. But there's even been times we've covered like
51:39
Speaker 4: cartels or supposedly cults that were killing people, and it's
51:42
Speaker 4: it's like, did you just throw the Santa Morte on
51:44
Speaker 4: there just to you know whatever, I don't know, it
51:47
Speaker 4: was not really an issue because then you find out
51:49
Speaker 4: the CIA was behind it. So like you gotta wonder
51:50
Speaker 4: about the whole storyline. You know what I'm saying, Are
51:53
Speaker 4: you throwing Santa Morte? And then it look like all
51:55
Speaker 4: these are some psychos but this is really its you know,
51:58
Speaker 4: you have no idea, So so do you think all
52:01
Speaker 4: due to that? There is a misconception too about even
52:05
Speaker 4: you know that it's not all negative because you know,
52:07
Speaker 4: from the whole time we've been on the show. I
52:09
Speaker 4: mean it sounds a little bit different from probably people's
52:12
Speaker 4: ideas just do that.
52:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, I think so. I think that for I
52:20
Speaker 1: have a very particular and maybe it's controversial position when
52:25
Speaker 1: it comes to like what has been taught to us
52:34
Speaker 1: about what's good and what's bad. I think that it's
52:42
Speaker 1: not possible to separate the two. You always find both
52:46
Speaker 1: things mixed because it's life. I mean, even like in
52:51
Speaker 1: a single person, you find like all of these things
52:56
Speaker 1: that are like these glimmers of good and and there's
53:00
Speaker 1: there's bath, and we are never like one hundred percent
53:05
Speaker 1: evil one hundred percent of the time, I think, because
53:09
Speaker 1: then we would not be humans, we would be something else,
53:13
Speaker 1: the same with you know, the goods, you know. But
53:17
Speaker 1: cartels are of course a reality, and they've done a
53:26
Speaker 1: lot of harm. But you know, governments also do a
53:30
Speaker 1: lot of harm. And the everyday person you know, who
53:35
Speaker 1: may not be seen like as a criminal on the
53:37
Speaker 1: same level as a cartel member, but they also do
53:42
Speaker 1: like a lot of harm in other ways, you know.
53:44
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, it doesn't surprise me on one hand
53:48
Speaker 1: if cartil members, particularly those that are like on the
53:52
Speaker 1: front lines go to Santa Marta for protection because like
53:58
Speaker 1: it's very dangerous. Yeah, But I don't know like the
54:03
Speaker 1: motivations behind each one of them and their actions. What
54:10
Speaker 1: I do know is that well they may have you know,
54:13
Speaker 1: the t shirts, tattoos, the big things Santa Martin. But
54:18
Speaker 1: that's one thing, and the other thing is like the
54:22
Speaker 1: choices you make and the actions you carry out. As
54:26
Speaker 1: I and as I said from my research, is that
54:30
Speaker 1: because Santa Marte is kind of like it would be
54:34
Speaker 1: a kin to maybe somebody praying to modern nature for
54:39
Speaker 1: protection or like it's one thing to do that and
54:45
Speaker 1: another to you know, pray to Mother Nature for Oh
54:51
Speaker 1: I wish that so and so would get struck by
54:54
Speaker 1: lightning or diet in an earthquake, because they are on
54:57
Speaker 1: my way. You know, if you do that kind thing, ah,
55:02
Speaker 1: you are likely not going to get what you want,
55:06
Speaker 1: at least not in the way that you expect. So
55:10
Speaker 1: what we see with the cartels is that, of course
55:13
Speaker 1: there's always violence and like chaos and death and things
55:18
Speaker 1: like that that are it's it's it's the very nature
55:21
Speaker 1: of the business. So I think that it's because maybe
55:27
Speaker 1: they themselves feel like they are so far out outside
55:31
Speaker 1: of society, there's nobody they could turn to, because like
55:36
Speaker 1: maybe they are they see themselves as beyond even the
55:39
Speaker 1: understanding of you know, with Hende gull A Lupe the
55:43
Speaker 1: Virgin Mary, So of course they are going to turn
55:46
Speaker 1: to the next mother figure that they can think of.
55:50
Speaker 1: And because she happens to be you know, scary looking
55:55
Speaker 1: from so many people, they're like, Okay, this is kind
55:58
Speaker 1: of like my match. But I would wonder if it's
56:01
Speaker 1: not more of a thing about the iconography just being
56:05
Speaker 1: you know, very fitting with the idea of oh, yes,
56:09
Speaker 1: I bring that because I kill a lot of people
56:12
Speaker 1: and my business is death, and therefore Santamarte is my patron.
56:17
Speaker 1: It might be something as like simple as that for them,
56:22
Speaker 1: because I don't see such a type of individual being
56:28
Speaker 1: able to have like a serious practice, a serious like
56:34
Speaker 1: routine to pay their respects and to cultivate a true
56:37
Speaker 1: relationship with Santime or they or with any deity in
56:41
Speaker 1: their circumstances. And I mean, there's little time to even
56:45
Speaker 1: think about that, and there's not enough like peace of
56:48
Speaker 1: mind to even like find that space within their own
56:53
Speaker 1: spirits to have that kind of relationship. So yeah, I
56:57
Speaker 1: mean of course, it's a natural fit from like the
57:01
Speaker 1: esthetic aspect, and therefore it's become very conflated with like
57:07
Speaker 1: these negative tones and intents. But if you take your
57:12
Speaker 1: time to really look into it, I think that you
57:15
Speaker 1: come to this conclusion. You know that it's not inherently
57:19
Speaker 1: like evil. Will there be people that have bad intentions
57:25
Speaker 1: who turn to her for the wrong reasons, Yeah, but
57:30
Speaker 1: it's not that that's always the case, and the same
57:33
Speaker 1: should happen, you know, for people who are very like
57:37
Speaker 1: Catholic or Evangelical Christians and they are very devout. But
57:42
Speaker 1: then you go and even though the association that we
57:45
Speaker 1: have from the outside is very positive, but that's where
57:49
Speaker 1: usually you find the most evil intentions ironically, you know.
57:55
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like you have to have those
57:58
Speaker 1: two sites pressed and at all times when when it
58:01
Speaker 1: comes to discussing these things.
58:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that.
58:06
Speaker 4: That was awesome, he said, thank you very much. Story.
58:11
Speaker 3: I do have another question, because of her uniqueness, would
58:19
Speaker 3: you think that she she's almost a form of ancestral worship,
58:25
Speaker 3: like there was like some traditions I don't know in
58:29
Speaker 3: Santaria and Vudu. Usually some people say the spirits that
58:34
Speaker 3: people worship, were once alive, was once human beings. So
58:38
Speaker 3: do you think she was either a person who wants
58:41
Speaker 3: to walk the earth or is she just a complete
58:44
Speaker 3: entity that came from her, came out of the ether.
58:48
Speaker 1: Uh. I don't think she was very a person. It's uh,
58:53
Speaker 1: it's just this phenomenon, this energy, this life that has
58:59
Speaker 1: always like life and death. You know, they are eternal,
59:04
Speaker 1: you know, they as far as we exist and the
59:08
Speaker 1: planet exists. I mean, it has to start. It all
59:11
Speaker 1: had to start at some point and it will finish
59:14
Speaker 1: at some point. So it's kind of like beyond that scope,
59:19
Speaker 1: you know. It's it's that energy, that drive that we
59:26
Speaker 1: cannot possibly like comprehend, so our human brain finds ways
59:32
Speaker 1: to put that into a terms that we can comprehend.
59:36
Speaker 1: So for me, it's such one of such scenarios, you know,
59:40
Speaker 1: the anthropomorphization of this event or this energy.
59:48
Speaker 4: You know, that was exactly what I was thinking. It's
59:52
Speaker 4: almost like an archetype of like one snippet and like
59:55
Speaker 4: a story. Mm hmm, yeah, that's what's Yeah.
1:00:01
Speaker 2: Nice.
1:00:03
Speaker 4: Was there anything else that you wanted to ask Judith
1:00:06
Speaker 4: if you had any questions or ideas?
1:00:08
Speaker 5: For now, I don't have any more questions.
1:00:11
Speaker 3: I do have to say you have enlightened me completely
1:00:15
Speaker 3: and have dispersed any misconceptions I've had about Santa Montage.
1:00:21
Speaker 3: And it kind of saddens me that we don't get
1:00:24
Speaker 3: to it's not are here in the Western world to
1:00:29
Speaker 3: build that relationship. But how it's been how can I
1:00:33
Speaker 3: say it's got a bad she's got a bad rap
1:00:39
Speaker 3: due to the misinformation, misuse, and misconception. So I've gained
1:00:47
Speaker 3: a lot of respect, a lot of respect.
1:00:50
Speaker 1: Well, that makes me happy.
1:00:52
Speaker 4: A very different idea what you're still looking into it
1:00:55
Speaker 4: than what you're typically used to hearing about. That's why
1:00:58
Speaker 4: I brought that out because, like, you know, like I think,
1:01:01
Speaker 4: like maybe something when you're trying to get at too,
1:01:03
Speaker 4: like if she's associated with death, I mean, that just
1:01:05
Speaker 4: encapsulates so many things that could fall under that. Unfortunately,
1:01:09
Speaker 4: you know, you could die from a heart attack, or
1:01:11
Speaker 4: you could have been tortured to death.
1:01:12
Speaker 2: You know.
1:01:13
Speaker 4: So when you hear of like a cartel or you know,
1:01:15
Speaker 4: these people doing this stuff and that name pops up
1:01:18
Speaker 4: and they're killing people, I think a lot of people
1:01:20
Speaker 4: just automatically think it has to do with oh, they're
1:01:22
Speaker 4: using this person, so they can kill these people and
1:01:25
Speaker 4: get away with it and summon their spirit and feed
1:01:27
Speaker 4: so and so. You know, all these you know, crazy
1:01:29
Speaker 4: ideas people get with this stuff that I have no
1:01:31
Speaker 4: idea anything about it. I think that gave it a
1:01:34
Speaker 4: bad rap, and it's just as a whole on the
1:01:36
Speaker 4: side whole of.
1:01:37
Speaker 2: The same in my opinion.
1:01:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's important, especially you know, post pandemic
1:01:43
Speaker 1: in Mexico. I think that people found her during the pandemic. Yeah,
1:01:50
Speaker 1: I mean, and you would think, oh, but it's death
1:01:53
Speaker 1: that is bringing all of this illness, and no, no,
1:01:56
Speaker 1: it's just like these things happen every years in the
1:02:01
Speaker 1: world unfortunately. H But if there's a way, if there's
1:02:08
Speaker 1: a figure an energy that can offer you some comfort,
1:02:11
Speaker 1: some dignity and some peace in dying, you know who
1:02:16
Speaker 1: wouldn't take it, you know, especially in those moments for
1:02:19
Speaker 1: those people who were not able to be with their
1:02:22
Speaker 1: loved ones when they passed. So it's very understandable to
1:02:26
Speaker 1: me that now there's kind of like been not not
1:02:30
Speaker 1: a resurgency per se, but just like a very strong
1:02:35
Speaker 1: push for it. You know. That's a different type of faith.
1:02:42
Speaker 3: I do have because and I might be I might
1:02:46
Speaker 3: have I might be remembering this wrong. When we were
1:02:48
Speaker 3: talking about your book, you were saying that she was
1:02:52
Speaker 3: the motivation behind your work.
1:02:55
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Right, So.
1:02:58
Speaker 5: Way you're continuing, you're showing her in the proper light
1:03:03
Speaker 5: to the world.
1:03:04
Speaker 1: Actually, I there was something. There were some things that
1:03:12
Speaker 1: happened right after I handed the draft the manuscript draft
1:03:20
Speaker 1: that I wan't share fully here, but there is something
1:03:26
Speaker 1: that I mean. I'm not a Santa Marta devotee, but
1:03:30
Speaker 1: I did at one point have a dialogue with her
1:03:33
Speaker 1: due to a personal situation that a loved one was
1:03:37
Speaker 1: going through. And it's very meaningful that you brought that
1:03:43
Speaker 1: up now, because that was one of the things that
1:03:49
Speaker 1: went in my mind when I was having this dialogue
1:03:52
Speaker 1: with Santa Marte. In that sense. You know that my
1:03:56
Speaker 1: practice is not like centered in her, but she's been
1:04:02
Speaker 1: kind of like around me for several years near me,
1:04:07
Speaker 1: and after this, I thought, well, I think that I
1:04:11
Speaker 1: need to do something to discuss to start talking more
1:04:17
Speaker 1: about what I'm not. I'm not going to be arrogant
1:04:23
Speaker 1: and say what she really is or what she really
1:04:25
Speaker 1: stands for, but basically have a more like a wider
1:04:32
Speaker 1: and more realistic, less, less sensationalist perspective about what Santa
1:04:39
Speaker 1: Marta means for so many people, you know, because it's
1:04:44
Speaker 1: it's it's nowhere near what is shown on media. So
1:04:50
Speaker 1: I think that I'm really appreciative of this opportunity, and
1:04:54
Speaker 1: I'll definitely be doing some more research and hopefully some
1:04:58
Speaker 1: writing about her at one point.
1:05:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, awesome, look forward to it.
1:05:07
Speaker 4: I think for myself, I think I'm pretty much out
1:05:10
Speaker 4: of questions or whatever. Again, it was a topic I
1:05:12
Speaker 4: don't know much about it at all, so that was
1:05:15
Speaker 4: great for me. Was there anything you wanted to ask
1:05:18
Speaker 4: Judith before we wrap it up or anything else?
1:05:21
Speaker 5: No, I'm good, all.
1:05:22
Speaker 4: Right, awesome, No, thank you, Thank you, Cherry. Was there
1:05:25
Speaker 4: anything you wanted to add or anything else that you
1:05:27
Speaker 4: left out or you know, not right.
1:05:30
Speaker 1: Now, but really this conversation always, I'm so happy and
1:05:35
Speaker 1: I'm so excited that you guys have my books receiving
1:05:41
Speaker 1: like comments, even if like all types of feedback, you guys,
1:05:45
Speaker 1: I'm serious.
1:05:47
Speaker 4: Good, all right? So yeah that I guess we could
1:05:50
Speaker 4: wrap it up here. Awesome, awesome show. Thank you so much.
1:05:53
Speaker 4: I really appreciate it. Again, that was just tons of
1:05:55
Speaker 4: information that I knew nothing of prior. Judith, thank you
1:05:59
Speaker 4: so much, great great questions. I really appreciate it. Cherry, well, Judith.
1:06:04
Speaker 4: Before before we wrap it up, let everybody know what's
1:06:06
Speaker 4: up with you when they can find your show.
1:06:08
Speaker 3: First of all, thank you Cherry for coming again. Hopefully
1:06:11
Speaker 3: you'll be back again. I'm hoping, I'm hoping.
1:06:14
Speaker 1: I'm you.
1:06:16
Speaker 3: You actually cleared up a lot of myths and you
1:06:20
Speaker 3: I see her in a brand new light now, So
1:06:24
Speaker 3: thank you again for that. Thank you Nick for having
1:06:27
Speaker 3: me on and you could. You can find me on
1:06:31
Speaker 3: YouTube and.
1:06:32
Speaker 5: On x as the loan.
1:06:34
Speaker 3: I do the weekly I do weekly brunch, and I
1:06:38
Speaker 3: also do a buddy check once a month.
1:06:40
Speaker 5: And thank you again Cherry and Nick.
1:06:43
Speaker 4: Thank you and Cherry. Please let everybody know what's up
1:06:47
Speaker 4: with you and where they can find your book.
1:06:48
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you. Well. You can find me at Cherry Red, Underscore,
1:06:53
Speaker 1: tattled on Instagram and threats uh. I have my links
1:06:58
Speaker 1: there to buy my book. My book can be bought
1:07:01
Speaker 1: like pretty much anywhere books are solved. I have links
1:07:05
Speaker 1: in those profiles as well. My books are open for
1:07:08
Speaker 1: tar out readings if you want. And I'm really appreciate
1:07:12
Speaker 1: you this Nick that you had me here again. It
1:07:15
Speaker 1: was so amazing and yeah, I mean, I just I'm
1:07:19
Speaker 1: always happy to say hi, so hollor wherever.
1:07:22
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it was great. I'm really really glad we
1:07:25
Speaker 4: had you back on. It was a pleasure both times. Again.
1:07:27
Speaker 4: If people didn't hear the first time, go check it out.
1:07:30
Speaker 4: She came on for the Left Hand Path of Taro. Yes,
1:07:33
Speaker 4: go check that out. Awesome show. And yeah, hopefully hopefully
1:07:37
Speaker 4: we'll get you on again for something else or you
1:07:38
Speaker 4: know whatever, We'll see what we can do. But yeah,
1:07:41
Speaker 4: thank you, and yeah, that's the end of another Recult
1:07:44
Speaker 4: Rejects and until the next one, everybody be well later.