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Interview Only w/ Tad Devine - Did The Democrats Screw Bernie Sanders? · The Chuck ToddCast

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  Speaker 1: vary and rates may vary. Well. Joining me now is
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  Speaker 1: somebody I have known thirty years at least. Tad Divine,
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  Speaker 1: longtime Democratic consultant, has been an insider and an outsider,
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  Speaker 1: which is what's going to make I think this conversation
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  Speaker 1: so fascinating. He's got a book out and it's a
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  Speaker 1: pretty simple title right now, Democrats Screwed Bernie. It's a
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  Speaker 1: lot about twenty sixteen, but in some ways it's written
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  Speaker 1: I think with a little bit of an eye towards
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  Speaker 1: twenty eight and the author being Tad Divine is fascinating
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  Speaker 1: to me because Tad, you worked for the ultimate insiders,
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  Speaker 1: a sitting vice president John Kerry's campaign benefited from an
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  Speaker 1: and so I do think it makes you maybe the
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  Speaker 1: best eyewitness to decide of what's fair, you know, in
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  Speaker 1: the famous Carvel and Madeline book All is Fair in
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  Speaker 1: Love and Politics? Right? What is fair here and what isn't? So, man,
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  Speaker 1: I can't wait to have this conversation. So Democrats screwed, Bernie.
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  Speaker 2: You were there, was I was there, and I got
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  Speaker 2: to witness it, you know, from in the front row.
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  Speaker 2: And although as I talk about the acknowledgments, you know,
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  Speaker 2: I don't really have a plan to write a book
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  Speaker 2: chuck in it.
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  Speaker 1: So happened I get an email from some guy.
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  Speaker 2: He said he was an editor at Simon and Schuster,
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  Speaker 2: and honestly I thought it was like, Okay, this is
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: the hustle. Now there a lot of writing books for
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  Speaker 2: a big publishers. I mean, I really I was like you.
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  Speaker 2: But I happened to be in New York. As you know,
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  Speaker 2: it was my very close friend who I grew up with,
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: Tom Donolin. We went to high school together with you know,
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: we all old friends. His brother was my business partner
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: for any years. It was his seventieth birthday. So my
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  Speaker 2: wife and I happened to be in Manhattan, where he
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  Speaker 2: and Kathy Russell, his wife lived, you know, part of
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  Speaker 2: the time. And so I so I saw this email,
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  Speaker 2: and I was like, you know, I don't see any links.
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  Speaker 2: I think I'll answer it, you know, and said, oh, well,
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  Speaker 2: you know, listen, I'm very interested in talking to you
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  Speaker 2: about that. As a matter of fack, I have to
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  Speaker 2: be in New York. You want to get together tomorrow morning,
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  Speaker 2: I'm available, you know, because I just I was more
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  Speaker 2: curious as what would happened. And sure enough, it was
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  Speaker 2: a real thing. And I did have breakfast, and one
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  Speaker 2: thing led to another and next thing. You know, I'm
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  Speaker 2: writing a book, and you know, and I started that
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  Speaker 2: process and I described it in the book. I wanted
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  Speaker 2: to get into detail here. But you know, as I
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  Speaker 2: wrote the book, I we began to get very upset
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  Speaker 2: about what happened ten years ago.
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  Speaker 1: You got more agitated than you had been we did.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it wasn't like I had the motivation to go
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  Speaker 2: write the book. It was like the book came to
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  Speaker 2: me and then I went to it and we found
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: each other and I said, you know what, I'm going
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: to lay it out there like I see it as
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  Speaker 2: it happened, and let the chips fall where they may.
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  Speaker 2: And that's what the book is.
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  Speaker 1: You know, Look, twenty sixteen. You know, it's so funny
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  Speaker 1: You've been involved in two elections that in the run
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  Speaker 1: up to those elections, what the consequences were going to
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  Speaker 1: be were never really framed very well. Two thousand I've
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: always said that's the we didn't realize how important that
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: election was until after the fact, right, And I think
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  Speaker 1: twenty sixteen has that same feeling. They were both weirdly
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: kind of low turnout, low energy elections. Yeah, Trump gave
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  Speaker 1: it a weird energy, but it wasn't sort of right,
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  Speaker 1: there was something And so look, I'm glad you wrote
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  Speaker 1: this book because I think twenty sixteen is a year
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  Speaker 1: we're going to keep coming back to right for a
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: variety of reasons. I've had my own thesis on this,
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: you know, I always look, I look at Sanders's candidacy.
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  Speaker 1: And let's start from the beginning so you'll enjoy this.
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  Speaker 1: I took over Meet the Press in September of twenty fourteen.
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  Speaker 1: Within the first two months, I booked Bernie Sanders. And
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  Speaker 1: you know what Bernie Sanders said to me. He goes,
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: thank you, And I said, why, He goes, You're the
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: first Sunday show ever to book me. Yeah. I believe that. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: And I said, are you serious? Yeah, I mean I
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: just was sort of you know, I know if I
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: was shocked, because you know, I'm surprised Tim didn't have
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  Speaker 1: him on in the nineties. And why do I say that,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: because Tim was always intrigued with oh look, well we've
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  Speaker 1: got a socialist. Let's see what they have to say,
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: right right. That's how I believed in Meet the Press.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: I wanted, you know, I want Jim to men. I
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  Speaker 1: wanted Bernie Sanders. I want you know, you know this
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  Speaker 1: is what the conversation is like.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'll tell you Chuck. I can believe that
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  Speaker 2: because when Bernie was a senator, you know, I was
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  Speaker 2: talking one day and I think I wrote this in
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  Speaker 2: the book, and he said to me, you know, Tad,
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  Speaker 2: you know my link to the establishment. And I said, Bernie,
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  Speaker 2: you're a United States Center that is the establishment.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, Right, how is it that you were the link
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  Speaker 1: and not the Senator? Right?
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  Speaker 2: I know, And it's it's it's a crazy thing because
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  Speaker 2: he never viewed himself like that.
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  Speaker 1: You know.
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  Speaker 2: He always saw himself as an outsider, and he was
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  Speaker 2: for so long in his career. Well, I there was
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: a part there's a part of me that believes he
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: prefers it.
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  Speaker 1: Well. In fact, look, there's a part of me that wonders,
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  Speaker 1: could he what he does? He really want to manage
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  Speaker 1: a bureaucracy. Now, I say that he did a great
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: as mayor of Burlington. He proved he could manager bureaucracy.
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  Speaker 1: He didn't want to say he can't. Yeah, yeah, I don't.
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  Speaker 2: I don't think it's it's a matter of preference as
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  Speaker 2: much as it is a matter of who he is.
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  Speaker 1: It's really you know, that's sort of his nature. You know.
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  Speaker 2: And when I you know, when I when I wrote
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  Speaker 2: the script for the first ad in the presidential election,
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  Speaker 2: you know, it was again the Statue of Liberty, you know,
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: because I was I was determined we were not going
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  Speaker 2: to give up America. Okay, The flag, the symbols of
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: America to the other side, particularly if he happened to
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: succeed and we were up against the Republicans because all
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: they were going to do is socialism. So, you know,
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  Speaker 2: and the ass start and said, the son of a
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: Polish immigrant who grew up in a Brooklyn tenement, he
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  Speaker 2: went to public school and college where the work of
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  Speaker 2: his life began, fighting injustice and inequality, speaking truth to power. Now,
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  Speaker 2: so in the first eight seconds, that's the story. That's
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  Speaker 2: the whole story. You know, that I wanted people to
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  Speaker 2: know about him, and I think they came to understand
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  Speaker 2: that story and that residual strength that he has continues
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  Speaker 2: on with voter today.
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  Speaker 1: So one of the what ifs on sixteen that I
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  Speaker 1: constantly go through, you know, because I think it's easy
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  Speaker 1: to see in hindsight. And the biggest one to me
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  Speaker 1: was Barrock. You know, if I were to say, what's
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  Speaker 1: the biggest mistake that Obama made, and it was endorsing Hillary,
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  Speaker 1: and I say this, this is not meant to be
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  Speaker 1: an attack on Clinton. It is more of Barack Obama.
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  Speaker 1: And by the way, why it didn't work. It was
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  Speaker 1: one of those half of Obama's supporters and ended up
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  Speaker 1: going to Bernie with that moment. I mean, I've always
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  Speaker 1: said he failed to understand why he won in eight
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  Speaker 1: if he thought endorsing Hillary Clinton was the answer in
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  Speaker 1: twenty sixteen.
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  Speaker 2: Right, Well, you know, I'm not very critical. I'm a
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  Speaker 2: critical of a lot of people in the book. But
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  Speaker 2: you know, President Obama's not one of them. I guess
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  Speaker 2: because we all feel when the library opened and when
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  Speaker 2: you saw the speeches and you're reminded of the emotional and.
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  Speaker 1: I look and there's no doubt my criticism is just
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: easy to see now at the moment. I've always said
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  Speaker 1: I respected the decision he made. I understood it is
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: it was good old fashioned politics. The Clintons were there
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  Speaker 1: for him in twelve when he needed them, and he
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: thought she was the best qualified. He didn't think Biden
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  Speaker 1: was running. It was not an unnatural thing for him
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  Speaker 1: to do. But when you look at twenty sixteen through
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  Speaker 1: the prism of twenty oha, the rise of Bernie was
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  Speaker 1: quite predictable.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, as you know, And if I were
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  Speaker 2: to talk about this now from my perspective of having
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  Speaker 2: written this thing, I would say that President Obama did
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  Speaker 2: not learn the most fundamental lesson of his own campaign,
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  Speaker 2: which is, we much have a process that allows voters
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  Speaker 2: to determine the outcome, Okay, And that's really was the
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  Speaker 2: big takeaway from me in two thousand and eight.
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  Speaker 1: You know.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, there was a different process, and there were super delegates,
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  Speaker 2: and they fought fought the inside game and they fought
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: the outside game. But really, in the end, he prevailed
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: because he moved voters beginning in Iowa, you know. And
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: when he moved to Iowa, suddenly South Carolina, which he
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: was losing at the time, it almost immediately began to
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: flip to him, you know. And it was the voters
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  Speaker 2: who provided that energy and enthusiasm, not just on the
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: ground in Iowa, in New Hampshire, but elsewhere. And by
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: the way, the voters in two thousand and eight in
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  Speaker 2: New Hampshire basically felt and I think New Hampshire is
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  Speaker 2: a great place in a great early event, and I
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  Speaker 2: hope they it back as such, but you know, I
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  Speaker 2: think they just felt, listen, we got to put the
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: brakes on this thing.
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  Speaker 1: It's moving too fast, okay. And New Hampshire, yeah, no,
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: I think that's fair point going back and wait, but
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  Speaker 1: the reason I'm doing this set up on sixteen A
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  Speaker 1: little bit is, if memory serves, Bernie only ran because
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  Speaker 1: nobody else would in his mind. And I say this
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  Speaker 1: with no disrespect to Jim Webb, Martin O'Malley, and there
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: was somebody else campaign after he left the Republican Party.
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  Speaker 2: I worked against him when he was running to run
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: against Sheldon Whitehouse, Okay, Mike and I but I do
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: the other side when he.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Left, so had had Obama not endorsed Clinton and it
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: said it endorsed and opened like saying, you know what,
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm not going to do this. I didn't like
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: it when other people, so I'm gonna I'm going to
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: keep this wide open. I've always wondered, does Bernie still
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: fill that that same vacuum or would somebody else had
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: filled that vacuum.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Well, it's hard to know, you know that, But I
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: do know this that the system that was in place
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: in twenty sixteen was, as Bernie would say, rigged, okay,
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: and it was the political nominating system in the Democratic Party.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: You know, you cannot have a campaign control the apparatus
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: of the Democratic Party. And that's what happened in twenty sixteen.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: The Clinton campaign, many of them by very good.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: For that way. Yeah.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: By the way, yeah, well, president, that's different, I would argue.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: And by the way, the rules of the Democratic National
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: Committee provide for it to be different. They explicitly say
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: that if there's an incumbent president, the incumbent president must
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: be treated differently than someone who is a challenger. Okay,
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: So I mean that's at least this notice of that
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: on the front end. There was no notice that said
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: somebody who is the preferred candidate of the establishment, who
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: has not won a single vote in the primary process,
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: they will get to control the party and everything it does.
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  Speaker 1: That's wrong. Pair your experience in two thousand with Gore
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: versus Bradley and the DNC versus twenty sixteen, because you're
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: literally on the other side of that equation.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: Sure, in two thousand, without Gore as the incumbent Vice
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: President of the United States, we did not control the
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: Democratic Party until he became the putative nominee. Okay, did
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: you feel like you had a little bit of insider access?
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: Did you feel like you had an advantage that the
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: DNS you had more allies within the DNC.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Yes, we had more support and we had more allies.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: But what we didn't have was control. We did not
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: control the you know, we responded to them. They set
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: up things. We played by the rules as the rules
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: were laid out, you know, But it's very different when
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: you actually control. I mean, I remember the day I
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: was notified of the debates schedule, for example, and I
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: received a call from very top person at the DNC
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: who said, oh, we're going to have four debates and
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: things like that. And I was like, really, that's what's
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: going happen when you going out? She said fifteen minutes,
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: and so that was so I hung on. I said, okay,
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: I know what the you know, this is obviously set up.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: Ten minutes after it was announced, when I saw Twitter
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: and Hillary Clinton saying I accept the invitation for debates,
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's such a total setup, then, I mean,
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: it's ridiculous.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: Well, the good news was, I believe we did a
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: gorilla debate and we ended up I think, creating a
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: debate of just Clinton versus Sanders that we had to
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: go around the DNC to do. When I was over
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: at NBC, yeah.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean after a little while, you know,
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: we got more standing. We were able to do things.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: But at the beginning, I mean, if we said no
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: to the debate schedules, he never would have made it
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: onto the stage in Las Vegas, you know, And at
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: that time he was he's completely unknown, you know, and
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: they'd been averag They went on TV in August in Iowa,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: New Hampshire, and we didn't go on until November, Okay,
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: so that was a very fragile period for us. We
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: could have been blown out.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: So I'm very empathetic of your argument on almost every level.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: But I have one issue that I that It's something
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: my wife, who was very empathetic of the Bernie argument,
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: she said, you know, Bernie has one negative that he's
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: still that that that is that is an easy retort
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: for the d NC on this one is you're not
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: even a member of the Democratic Party. Well shouldn't we all?
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: R right? I mean that that is why shouldn't we
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: play favorites with somebody who is a member who has
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: raised money for the party for decades, Hillary Clinton, versus
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: somebody who won't even register as a member of our organization. Well, listen,
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: I wish I could argue that with you. Okay, you know,
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: I'm right, that's the weakest part of the argument, right.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: One of the good one of the good things about
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: be doing the book for myself and not on behalf
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: of anybody is I can say whatever I want. And
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: usually I'm here, I'm talking to you, and I'm gonna do.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: You know, I know what.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: The time you're representing somebody, I'm going to do somebody else.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: But in this instance, I want to tell you, you know. Uh, Bernie,
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: he just could never bring himself to do that. And
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: when I saw Mendami after he got elected and he
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: was doing an interview and they said, well, you know,
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: are you a Democrat? He said, yes, I'm the nominee
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: of the Democratic Party for Mayor of New York and
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: I'm running as a Democrat. And I was like, oh
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: my god, these are words we could never get out
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: of Bernie's puff. And by the way, the day we
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: had to file okay, So the day he announced he
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: had to file a form. Okay, there's a legal document
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: when the lawyers are involved, the Federal Election Commission and
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: so and Jane, who was very protective of Bernie's status
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: as an independent basically Jane Bernie's wife, Jane Bernie's wife, Jane.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: He basically says because you have a line that says
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: party affiliation, so we wrote in Democrat.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Okay. It was like no, absolutely under I was like,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: oh well, you know, we gotta you know, you know.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: And this led to like about a three hour debate okay,
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: that went back and forth around the corner and the
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: lawyers of this, and finally we came to Democrat party okay,
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: that we somehow were able to agree that we we
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: couldn't say Democrat, but we could say Democrat party because
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: we have to file this form and we can't leave
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: a blank, you know what I mean, because otherwise the
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: Federal Election Commission is not going to let you run
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: for president. So so you know, and I was always
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: sort of waiting like, oh God, who's going to see this,
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: Who's going to call up?
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: You know? And he really used and not Democratic party,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: by the way.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: Democrat party, okay, and there it is. It's just always
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: course nobody sorry I didn't go in there. And you know,
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: the next thing, he's like, you know John Kerry's medical
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: records from Vietnam. Okay, nobody's you know what, you got
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: to go in and take a look out of him.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: And they come out and then they're like, okay, well
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: that's all done, you know, let's do the next one.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: So you know, but that, but but I always wanted
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: him to be more of a Democrat. And and you listen,
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: and and and now in defensive Jane, I have to
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: say the truth is that in the primary process where
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: Independence could participate, participate in places like Wisconsin, in Michigan,
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: beginning in New Hampshire, you know where he won more
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: votes one hundred and fifty thousand votes than anyone had
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: ever won up.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: Until that point in time.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: In the New Hampshire primary, it was the Independence in
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: their presence, along with young people and other parts of
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: our coalition who powered the campaign. So you know, I
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: couldn't you be mad about what he was doing as
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: an independent, But I wanted him to become a part
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: of the Democratic Party. And I'll just add to this,
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: touch Chuck, one more thing. Another thing I pushed Bernie on.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: And we had a lot of pushing and shoving in
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: the campaign. I mean, we were really you know, you know,
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I pushed him on the Democratic
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Socialist speech which he gave at Georgetown University. I pushed
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: him in part because he said he would publicly do
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: it by it, you know. And I said, Bernie, you
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: said you were going to do it. Either're asking me
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: about it. You got to go do it. So he
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: gives a speech, and if you read that speech, you
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: at least when I read it, this is what I saw.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, I wrote some lines. He used hardly any
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: of them. But I will say the one part I
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: gave him, which actually believe or not. This is first
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: time the world will hear this. Shrum helped me, okay,
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: from a cab on.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: His way to do a thing. I'm like, I'm doing this.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: He's like, I've just some great lines. Let me editing it,
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: you know. So you know, that was the only thing
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: that got quoted from the speech, you know, And I'm
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: sure Shrum's holding that over your head forever. Yeah, of
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: course he is, of course.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: And by the way, you know, but Bernie said in
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: that speech at Georgetown was his idea of democratic socialism
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: was the unfinished agenda of Franklin Roosevelt. Okay, the Second
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: Bill of Rights that Roosevelt advocated for before he died.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: That workers needed a bill of rights, and that's what
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Bernie based his whole sort of scheme on and what
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: he wanted to do. So it's and I argue in
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: the book that his socialism is as American as apple pie.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: And it's four bearers are Martin Luther King Junior okay,
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: who said, you know, we've got, you know, capitalism for
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: the poor and socialism for the rich in America okay.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: And Franklin Dillan and Roosevelt, who laid out an agenda
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: that Bernie embraced and wanted to build it.
• 18:46
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• 20:35
  Speaker 1: because in politics you have to the S word in
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: the Sunbelt versus S word in New England or the
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: Midwest is seen differently and is heard differently. Did you
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: ever have that discussion with him, because I look, I
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: grew up in Miami, and I can just tell you
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: it just is impossible to fix the word. Okay, I'm
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: never going to I defer to you on my I mean,
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm never going to fix the word. That
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: doesn't mean people don't want universal health care. It doesn't
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: mean people don't want universal childcare. It doesn't mean that
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: they want to see government should be more involved with
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: creating a better safety net, a bigger safety net, all
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: of those things. It is literally the word because for
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: many Hispanic Americans, first, second, third generation. You can keep going,
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: it has been what the word has been weaponized in
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: a different way. And by the way, the Latino vote
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: in America is America swing vote. Now, I really think
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: you're seeing this more and more. Did he does he does.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: He get that argument that you understand that issue? Well,
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: I think he understands it, but he doesn't care about it. Okay,
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, you.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: Know he doesn't care in his own way, you know.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: And and uh, you know, I understood, and I thought
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: a lot about the repercussions I had this. I remember
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: having this discussion with Ben Jellis when we were my partners.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: I were pitching him to do his governor's trace in Maryland.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: And look, I think, I be honest.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: I use his the blowout there as a reminder, this
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: is really hard to sell, even in blue Maryland. Yeah,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: it is.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: Well, I think what killed us, And I mean here
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: was a guy. Ben started off in fourth place. He
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: won the primary by double digits, and I think he
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: had a great message to win that primary, and then
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: he had an incoming governor. It was very popular, with
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: fifteen million bucks in the bank, and we were broke. Okay,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: so that's what killed him. Okay, you know, But in
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: the socialism thing, you know, I was really determined that
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: should we be successful, and knowing that what the Republicans
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: would do, it was going to be a socialism campaign completely,
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: and you know, and I just said, listen, we don't
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: have to retreat from it. We have to explain it.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: And that's what the Georgetown speech was all about. It
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: was about, you know, but we also have to embrace
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: the symbols of America. And if you look at, for example,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: the America at everybody loved the America at Well. Paul
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: Simon gives you a song, It's going to be good. Okay,
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: I tell you, you know, But you know, if you
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: look closely at it, I mean, I think the add
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: is sixty seconds long, and there's sixteen scenes that have
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: some symbol of the American flag in it.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: Okay. Some of it is very subtle.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: And if you ever counted that, there's scenes where we
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: put hundreds of people on this you know, screen together.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: If you went into that, you'd probably find one hundred
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: American flag scenes, Okay.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: And that's what it was.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: Really there because I felt we needed to embrace it,
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: that we were not going to run away from America,
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: the tapestry of America. And when we had that fight
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: with them, Bernie was going to make the fight on
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: the basis of policy, and Trump could make the fight
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: on the basis of rhetoric, and we were willing to
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: live with that battle.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: Let's go back to the tactics. Do you believe if
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: if you were declared the winner of Iowa on Caucus night,
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: that basically the southern states go differently.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: No, but I do think what would have happened if
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: you know, it was forty nine to nine to forty
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: nine six, okay, was after all the coin flips in Iowa, okay,
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: And the Clinton campaign then declared victory as though it were,
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: you know, like World War two had just ended and
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: they're on the you know, aircraft carrier.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: And the harbor. It's all over.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: You know, that's and you know, but I think if
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: it had been us, you know, a couple of point
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: or two ahead, you know. And by the way we
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: started Iowa, if you look at and I did this,
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: you know, the day he announced, which was you know,
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: April thirtieth, twenty fifteen, and you look at real clear politics,
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: you say, okay, where was the race on that day? Well,
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: in Iowa we were fifty points behind five zero okay,
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: five zero behind nationally forty behind in New Hampshire on
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: the same date as well, and you have a campaign
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: which you know, gave its opponent three months of TV,
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: you know, August, you know, September, October before we joined
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: them in Iowa, New Hampshire and wound up closing that
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: thing too, as Bernie named it a virtual tie, you know,
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: and if you you know, the story of that is
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: we won. Okay, but there was but the story the
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: Clinton campaign put out, which is by three tenths of
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: one percent of delegate equivalency, it wasn't even percent. They
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: would not put out the results of how many people
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: caucused on both sides in Iowa. Okay, when I talk
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: about the establishment.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: Believe to this day you had a lot more wrong.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: You better believe we did a number of oh, without
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: a doubt, without a doubt.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: I mean some of these places was discree, you know,
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: college towns and things like that. There were so many
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: people coming in if we had a count, but they
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: would they refuse to put out the numbers in the count.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: And it's all part of the same system, okay, of
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: trying to suppress this thing. I think if we had
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: somehow got another point out, I squeezed another point out
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: of Iowa at the end, I think, and then came
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: to New Hampshire and had a big blowout. I think that,
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: you know, really, the odds for us would have improved immeasurably,
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: particularly if we could have then come in and finished
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: the job in Nevada. But listen, I told Bernie early
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: Bernie early on, I said, listen, Bernie, you know this
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: is when he and Jane and I spent the weekend
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: together at their house in April twenty fifteen. And I'm
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: and I'm really pushing because I didn't. I said, Bernie,
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: I've been doing this for a long time. I'm really
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: into the super delegates, proportional representation, I'm getting into all this.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: And I said, you cannot win this system. Tell me
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: why you're running. And he told me why he was
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: running a very calful language, that I didn't want to
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: be a backbencher, and you know, and I said, okay,
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: well I understand this now, and you know, but I
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: told him at that time, I said, listen, you need
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: to understand that if to win, you have to win Iowa,
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: you have to win New Hampshire, you have to win Nevada,
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: and through that we have to somehow figure out how
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: to win South Carolina, which was going to be very difficult.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: Not so much because and everybody says, oh, because there's
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: so many African American voters there, that's why you can't win. No,
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: it was not just that. It was that the South
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: Carolina primary was on a different day for Republicans and Democrats.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: So we didn't have the same audience we had in
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: New Hampshire or would later have in Michigan or Wisconsin
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: because that audience of independent voters were crossing pressured. And
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: if the Republican primary is on the same day, a
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: lot of those independents who three weeks earlier decided to
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: go vote for Trump, they I believe they would have
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: come and voted for Bernie just like they would have
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: been November.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: And you know, and that's part of the reason I
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: feel Bernie would have won the race, because the best
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: measure of support is what happened in those open primaries,
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: in the in the primary process.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: You know, that is a pulse. It's interesting you bring
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: up the Trump factor and I had not. I think
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: that the South Carolina example you just gave is an
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: interesting one that Trump basically ate into Burnie. How and
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: how many states do you believe Trump ate into Bernie's
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: support during that primary? Well, I think in a few.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, for example, in New Hampshire, instead of getting
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty thousand volks, I think it was
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: get one hundred.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: And seventy thousand votes.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: Okay, and I don't think she would have got a
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: lot more, to be honest with it would so instead
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: of winning. I remember the night of the you know,
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: in New Primary and I finished an interview with you.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: We were sitting on the set at MSNBC and the
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: exits clothes came out and when you were done with
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: the interview, you had a little thing.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: You took it out and it was like fifty eight
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: thirty eight.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: Okay, it was that, you know that, you know, you
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: know that was the exit poll, and I you know,
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: I mean basically the voting everything was over by then.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: But I you know, I was like, okay, this this
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: is a real blowout. But you know, we you know so,
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: but you know, we would have needed to win those events.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: And I told Bernie, we gotta win. I would win
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: New Hampshire, you know, win South Carolina, you know, somehow
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: figure out how to win that, and then we will
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: face a second front from the entire establishment of the
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: Democratic Party. They weren't just going to roll over, I
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: mean with with Gore, with Carrie, you know, we did,
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: we finish it off and it's all over, and you know,
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: the thing is ended. That was not gonna happen with Bernie,
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: we were gonna have a it's going to be brought
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: me back to my day's work for Mondale. You know,
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: when you have a part of the party who won't
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: go to the events that the nominee has, who's a
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: former vice president by the way, you know, they wouldn't
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: even show up for him. So with Bernie, we were
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: going to be out and the only way to get
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: him in was to go right to the grassroots to people,
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: overwhelm everybody with voters, and that's how we take things over.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: What's the why was the Bernie? Why did Bernie feel
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: more comfortable standing down with Biden than he did with Clinton?
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: You know, I think in large measure is because they
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: had an excellent personal relationship. And I remember, you know,
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: Bernie going over to meet the Vice president the Vice
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: President's residence towards the end of the campaign, had private
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: meeting with him, and when he came back, he was
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: really maybe gushing is the wrong word, but Biden really
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: connected with him. And I think a lot of it
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: had to do with, you know, the circumstances they grow
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: up in, you know, I mean, you know, they came
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: from the sort of same kind.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: Version of Biden was always good at this, at that
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: part of.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: Great at it, and I and I think that's that's
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: why he made a connection with him. And the second
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: thing was, you know that Biden was willing to go
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: there when it came to policy. You know, I mean
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: when Bernie, for example, proposed and.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: Seemed to give him a piece of the agenda. And
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: and oh, I will argue that good or bad, but
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: there's no doubt that the first two years of Biden's
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: presidency was probably very similar to what Sanders would have done.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: Right when Bernie talked about a trillion dollar infrastructure program,
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: people were rolling their eyes. It's saying, you've got to
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: be kindding, this is ridiculous. Well, Biden led it into law. Okay,
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: So so I think it was substantive in part, but
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: I think it was mostly personal. They just connected on
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: that level.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: What do you remember of the Clinton outreaches to Bernie?
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: Was there anything that almost worn't? It? Was Bill Clinton
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: better at it? And did he try?
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: You know, honestly, I wish, I wish I could tell
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: you that I was very involved in any of that,
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: and I was not. And you know, by that point,
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: you would have been among the conduits. You know, well,
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: I could have been, but by that point in the campaign,
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: when we got to the end game, I basically I
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: sort of split. And one of the reasons that the
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: book begins with me leaving the campaign basically after after California,
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: you know, because Bernie and I would just irreconcilable at
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: that point.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: Time made it talk. What made it irreconcilable was he
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: Just because I will tell you my impression of Bernie's campaigns,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: and I've just gotten a lot of glimpses of him
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: from different perspectives, probably more than most reporters, I still
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: think he was running to make a point less than
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: he was running to hold an office, well I need
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: to make an argument, less than he was to win
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: a campaign.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: Well, I think I think at the beginning when he
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: made the decision and when I really pushed him to
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: tell me why he was running, because I wanted to know,
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: if I'm going to get into this thing, what's up about?
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: And it turns out, you know, he was sick and
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: tired of being a backbench at Fine and so you know,
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: but as we got into it, you know, when you
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: get into it and you move Iowa fifty points and
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: you moved New Hampshire sixty points. You know, you know,
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: you suddenly see that there may be a path here
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: from me, you know, because you feel it. You know,
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: we walk into these gigantic events. He goes to the
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: West coast and twenty five thousand of Seattle, twenty five
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: thousand important, twenty seven thousand.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: In Los Angeles.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: You know, people are coming in like this. When that
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: starts happening, and it's real, it's organic, it's not we're
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: not paying people to go to our events, you know.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: You know, then you start to see a way forward.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: And I think that's what happened in the campaign. We
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: began with like, okay, I'm going to make a point,
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: and then we got to a point where we said, okay,
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: let's try to get this done. Okay, let's really try
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: to win. And we did try to win, and you
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: know we didn't in the end. But you know, but
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: I mean my whole thing with the book, as I
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: wrote it, I began to understand more about what I
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: was doing. I really wanted to make the point that
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: we have to have a nominating process that gives voters
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: a much louder voice than they had a twenty sixty.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: So this gets it to the question of whether you
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: know how much you know a political It's up to
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: the political party, how much how much of the of
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: the voter of voters they want to have involved in this, right.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: You mean, look, you and I are growing up and
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: grew up in at at a time that was actually
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: new to presidential politics. Right, the voters actually had to
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: say right. Right. For arguably for almost two hundred years,
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: voters didn't really have a say on this stuff. Right.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: It was it was party brokers, it was donors and
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: all of that. And I guess you could argue what
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: sixty You could argue that sixty four on the Republican
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: side and seventy two on the Democratic side were the
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: first times that the establishment didn't get to decide, right,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: I think so, yeah.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: And on the Democratic side, I don't know a lot
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: about the Republicans. Just watching the Democratic side, we thought
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: we had reformed the party, you know, our rules in
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: the way that the mosgovery reforms.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: Of seventy two. Right, that was what all.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: The commissions after commission, you know, you know, year after
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: year after election after election, and we reformed this way.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: Then we were from then Hunt Commission would come along
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: say well, no, no, we've got to give more power
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: back to you know, elected leaders and parties officials.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: The government was the Southerners, right yeah.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: We designed a system that had that, and then that
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: system got blown up from within, you know, with the
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: original system had you know, there were some members of Congress,
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: not all Democrats, the governors, they basically were the super
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: delegates that then expanded into the d n C. So
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: now there's four hundred and more, you know, suddenly here,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: you know, in nineteen sixty eight, I was. I was
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: in the middle of this on behalf of governor du caucus.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: We changed the rules we.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: Adopted sixty eight even better, no eighty eight semany.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: I was graduat from college, but by eighty eight I was,
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: you know, running the rules committee for a ducaucus and
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: you know, and and Mike do caucus when you know,
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: it's it's it's a funny thing. I wrote about this,
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: but a lot of stuff I wrote didn't make it
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: into the book. But now I can say what I want, right,
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: you know. So I was Nick Metropolis unfortunately we lost
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: last year. Was a great friend, you know, you know,
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: he used to take a day off once a month
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: traveling with Mike because he was kind of the body
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: guy and he always say to me, will you go?
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: I said, great, I'd love to travel. So we he
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: and I the governor. I flew out to Salt Lake
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: City together in the little plane and I said, Governor,
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: I need to talk to you about the Rules Committee
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: and how it's going to play out and get your
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: approval these things, and so you know, I'm going through
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: this to super delegates. He was like, I get rid
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: of them all. We shouldn't have any super dealers. Well,
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: you know, if you're going to be the president, maybe
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: we should keep the Congress. Okay, but we get rid
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: of the DNC, and that's what that happened. We don't
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: get he said, okay, well that makes a lot of sense.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: And he's like I was like, what they want proportional representation.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: He's like, absolutely, I one hundred percent support because the
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: Liberals in Massachusetts had proportional representation that was the And I.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: Said, oh that's great. I said, but can we agree?
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: You don't tell anybody that's your position because I'm to
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: hold out till the end in the negotiations to get
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: proportional representation. So so sure enough, we go to the negotiations,
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: we negotiate a new system. We get rid of all
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: the DNC delegates, yeah, super delegates. We you know, we
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: get proportional representation. And of course then Ron Brown, who
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: was a great you know, great guy and a friend
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: of mine. Loved Ron and so terrible, you know, his death,
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: what a tragedy. You know, he comes, he runs for DNC.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: Rom's a good politician, and he decides, when the universe
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: of voters is the Democratic National Committee, I think I'll
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: be for restoring their.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: Status a super deals, I guess.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: Okay, you know, which is what he immediately did, even
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: though he negotiated through Harold Dickey's who I was dealing with,
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: you know, you know, locked in a room with Harrow
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: for a week.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: Okay, I needed to go on vacation, so.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: You know, so you know, but they did that because
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: it was you know, politically, it was the right thing
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: to do. But it built a structure around the nominating
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: process which gave true much weight to insiders. By the
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: time we got to twenty sixteen, eight hundred, almost eight
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: hundred of the super delegates were the number of super
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: delegates eight hundred, that's but you only need have to win, Okay,
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: So that means you know, you've got twenty percent of
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: what you need to win out of this one group
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: of people. And I told Bertie you weren't going to
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: get any of them. We got a handful of them,
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: but hardly any so so it had to be changed.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: They changed it a little, but they haven't changed it enough,
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: and they haven't recognized And by the way, it's not
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: just the DNC. I also talk about the press too,
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: A little bit. In the press I think needs to
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: recognize that when you have somebody win a place like
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: New Hampshire, it counts more in terms of how they're
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: going to do in November. Then if they win a
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: place like the old Iowa Caucus or something like that,
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: you know, it really is a test of strength.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: For the general election. Look, I am one of these
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: sad sacks that actually defends the old primary calendar. I
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: think that. I mean, I think the idea of learning
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: how to organize on the ground in Iowa, learning how
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: to talk to independence in New Hampshire, learning how to
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: talk to your base voter in South Carolina, learning how
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: to talk to Latino voters in Nevada, isn't that part
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: of the obstacle course here that you're trying to trying
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: to do to get your to find out who your
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: party leader ought to be.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: Listen, I think the calendar, which is one of the
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: most important strategic aspects of the nominating process, is well
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: suited to have those four states up front. And I.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: Mean, I know everybody's pissed off at Iowa, right because, well,
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: that's the problem, and that's the problem, there's no doubt
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: I understand that. But I also think the retreat from
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: Iowa has also gutted what was, uh what was an
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: important swing state. And I think Democrats are not being
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: in rural Iowa. Where else are they going to learn
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: how to talk to rold voters? That's right, I agree.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, the only change I would make is to
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: try to get the Republican and Democratic primary on the
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: same day in South Carolina and if that would the
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: dominating process Iowa caucus. But you know, and independences can
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: participate if they want to. It's a little hard, but
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: they can voter registration. Yeah, anybody could show up. So
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: New Hampshire I think, in many ways is the perfect primary,
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: you know, because everybody's used to it there, and and
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: the voters in New Hampshire really deserve credit because well.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: That's why caucuses, because I feel like the Iowa voters
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: are very similar to the New Hampshire voters. I agree. Yeah,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: look at it this way, Dad, if I demographically, neither
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: Iowa New Hampshire should be swing states, I actually think
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: because they take the presidential stuff so seriously, they're just
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: more I'm sorry, I think there are best voters.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: I agree, and and I wish we could restore the
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: process to that and then fix it in other ways,
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: you know. And one of the great fixes that I'm
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: in favor of is trying to do what my home
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: state of Rhode Island does, which is to allow independence
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: to participate in the Democratic or Republican primary, which both
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: held on.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: The same day, you know.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: And then in twenty sixteen, Rhode Island was the only
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: state that Bernie won. All the other states were closed
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: primaries and we lost, okay. And part of the reason
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: we won too is I pushed Weaver, and I was like, listen,
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: you know, at first I pushed him on Massachusetts, which
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: everybody speak time we were right as his campaign manager,
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: and he was sort of in control of what we're doing.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: And I was like, listen, I think we can make
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: a round at in Massachusetts, and like really sure, there
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: was we don't have a single elected official in the
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: state endorsing us. And I was like, well, if we
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: go on, we got to go on in Providence, and
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: we got to go on in Springfield. Okay, you know,
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: but by going on in Providence to try to get
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: mass Chusetts, we had built a foundation in Rhode Island,
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: you know. And then when we came back in I
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: actually made I actually made ten versions of the America
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: AD that would sort of fit into different place, and
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: there was a Rhode Island version with Roger Williams. He's
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: got a statue's holding his hand out like this, Roger
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: Williams over Providence is part of the America At. Okay,
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: because we really tried to win, now us what we
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: did helped us to win. But the biggest thing that
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: helped us to win was allowing independence to vote in
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: either primary, the Democrat or Republican. And by then Trump
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: wasn't pulling people in like it was at the beginning,
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: and they all came over to us.
• 40:23
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  Speaker 1: And yes, I too, am a customer. You know. The
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: irony of this is on open primaries is that now
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: it is now it is now the center, the centrist,
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: the establishment types that are want more open primaries because
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: it's the closed primaries where the progressives and the socialists
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: have had more success. Just look at New York City.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, well I you know, I listen to New
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: York is an example of how bad the system was
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: in twenty sixteen because you had, you know, if you
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: were if you were not registered to vote as a Democrat.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think you had to get yourself into
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: the Democratic Party in the fall of twenty fifteen. Okay,
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: that was the deadline to participate on that.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, New York is the New York has some
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: really undemocratic voting laws, right.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, you better believe it. And it's very tough. Again
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: on the battle, I remember Chuck in nineteen eighty four.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: I was sort of the debut Lane Kmark was the director.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: I was a deputy director. And you know, we got
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: the signatures in Gary Hart. Signats came in and there
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: were ten thousand, five hundred or no, it's fifteen thousand
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: signatures and he had fifteen thousand, five hundred and stuf.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: It was like five hundred more than he needed. And
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: they got very tough laws in New York. It's hard
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: getting the signatures group. And so David Ipschin, who was
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: the general counsel of the campaign, was running in the
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: Johnson and everything. But that I got hold into this meeting.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: They're like, we can knock you off the bout, we'll
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: knock them off the ballot. And you know, in those
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: days and we were just trying to win by the
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: skin of our jap. We had no money. And I
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: will say in Jim Johnson, who's gone now, But I
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: defensive Jim. You know, Jim made the right call. He said, listen,
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: we can knock them off the ballot. We can get
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: the delegates. We got to go beat them and if
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: we don't beat them in New York and that was
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: the right New York call.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, new York has Remember you would get you would
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: qualify in some congressional districts, but you wouldn't make it
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: on others, like you know such. It was crazy. It
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: wasn't even a decision that was made at the state level.
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: It would literally be made to congressis me. I was.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: I was in charge of overseeing the petition campaigns in
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: every state.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: Okay. I was like, oh my god, this is art.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: Do you I mean, it sounds like you're would you
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: make an advocate? Look, I think one of our polarization
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: problems in this country and I frankly think taxpayer funded
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: partisan primaries, I would argue that exclude people might be
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: a violation of equal protection. Absolutely sounds like you're for
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: all four open primaries primary and I'm for reform.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: And one of the big things in the book is
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: recognizing the core message of Bernie's campaign in twenty sixteen
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: was that America had a rigged economy held in place
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: by corrupt system of campaign finance.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: Right, excuse me, no, take a chap.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: And I think that's the fact right now, and that's
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: what's happening in America and until we deal with that,
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: when we're going to have this polarization of politics. And
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: I also speculate, and I'm not an investigative reporter.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: I wasn't in a room.
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: I don't have witnesses to tell me this, but I
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: believe in my heart and in my soul that after
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: the two thousand and eight election, the Republicans got together
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: and said, we've got to change the system because this
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: young black candidate just outraised John McCain two to one, Okay,
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: because Obama had the ability to go to traditional fundraising
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: sources and also raise at the grass roots, and it
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: was terrifying for these guys. I mean, they picked Sarah
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: Palin and I know this for a fact because I
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: dealt with a lot of these guys, you know, in
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: terms of other stuff I did outside. They picked her
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: because they needed money in the Republican National Committee that
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: they were not raising, and she was the one who
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: they thought could bring the money into the organization to
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: side of the roots.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, they were totally was terrible for the roots. Conservative
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: he just was not.
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: And what happened after that camp, after Obama won, was
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: the Supreme Court got the note okay, and the Supreme
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: Court then moved very quickly and decisively to allow the
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: flood of money into politics. And that's what's destroying America
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: today more than anything else.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: Well, and it's funny we just were talking on the
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: day that we just got to know. You know, it's
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: not a shock to me that, you know. What I'll
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: say about this court is it's a conservative court. It's
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: not a Trump court. If we're a Trump court, there
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: would have been a lot more worse decisions that would
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: have really, you know, but there is one consistency with
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: this Roberts Court is that he has decided that money
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: and speech are the same. That's right. And so the
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: question is could we can fight it? And you can
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: hope twenty five years later you'll get judges that show
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: up and may reinterpret things differently. You do a constitutional amendment,
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: or you pass along Congress that sort of accepts the
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: premise of okay, we'll go unlimited, but at certain limits.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: You have to do certain things. You have to name
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: your advertiser, you've got to you know, put the brand
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: of the corporate logo on your plane or whatever it is.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: That's the sort of the NASCAR answer. I mean, I
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: wish there were some more creative campaign finance answers given
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: the current legal structure we have, I wish we were
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: in a different one. But sometimes you've got to fight
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: within the structure that you have, not the one that
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: you want.
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: Well, I agree with that, and fighting within the structure
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: means taking steps which are available to you in the
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: short term. So, for example, one of the reasons in
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: my view that Mandamie was able to succeed in New
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: York is that New York has a generous system of
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: campaign finance, and you know, I think it's like a
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: five to one match, okay, So he was able to
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: He couldn't spend as much as the super packs with
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: the Wall Street guys who are trying to kill him with, okay,
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: but he could spend enough to achieve a floor level
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: of communication of his message and to get through to
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: people with it, including television advertising and other ways of communicating.
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: That's one measure that if we can move right now,
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: a lot of people can get into the system and
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: can win election through doing that. But the real answer
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: is we must amend the Constitution of the United States
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: in a way that the Court cannot move away from it.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: And I think it could be done. And here's why,
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: because about eighty percent of Republicans, Independence and Democrats are
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: for doing it.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: The hard part of this business is convincing people to
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: do something, Okay, to be for an issue, to do something,
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: they're already there. What we've got to do right now
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: now is we got to you know, organize it, and
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: we got to make it happen. And I believe if
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: it's done in the right way, it will happen.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And look, and I understand that the neither party
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: is going to accept the perception that one of them
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: loses during a reform effort, right right, This has been
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: the This is to me, the mistake that was made
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: on the redistricting front. Right And this is where I
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: think that that Democrats are in the wrong. You know,
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: first they were the Party of fairness, and then now
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: they're on the party of Well, if they're not going
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: to play fair, then we're not going to play fair.
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: I think that's a bad that becomes, that's an erosion
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: of brands. You're going to regret down the road.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: Well, here's the problem. We're in an existential crisis in America.
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: I understand. I get the counter argument. I accept the
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: premise of that argument. But it's a death spiral if
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: we keep going down this road. Yeah, I listen.
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: I believe that, and I think we can get to
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: that place, and we need leaders to help us to
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: get there. But the voters are already there. I mean,
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: that's the whole thing about this. Now, the voters are
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: ready for reform. The question is the leaders meet them?
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Right.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: The more time I spent writing the book, the more
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: I realized what the book was about. It was about
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: empowering voters to solve the problems of America. That's you know,
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: if we do that, we're going to be able to
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: get these things done. I believe ted.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: I am, like, I'm obsessed with the period between eighteen
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: eighty and about in nineteen thirty two, right, this period
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: where we did, where we went through the we went
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: through this transition a grarianto industrial we're in the middle
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: of it now. We had a Gilded Age. We had
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: a whole bunch of industrialists who wanted to lock in
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: their wealth rather than accept the premise that they couldn't
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: have done it without America right, that this was and
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: we had a leader that met the moment and Teddy
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: and we made a lot of Look, we made huge
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: direct election as senators, women suffrage, the Constitutional Amendment on taxing,
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: which people don't realize how important that was. We have
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: property taxes out of it. So I guess the question
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: is how do we get the leaders that will will
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: will actually let the reform happen because we don't have
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: Congress that will do this well.
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: The way we do it is by having people win
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: elections on that basis. Okay, you know, I mean the
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: only hope for the Democrat.
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: But as you know, it's a lot. It's harder to
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: win on reform. It's easier to win on pocketbook. Yeah. No,
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: I listen.
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't advise people to go out and say, listen,
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: my central message and let's make TV ads about constitutional amendment. No,
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: let's make TV ads about housing and how it's too high.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: Let's make them add about groceries, about you know, let's
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: talk to people. But these are people who when they
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: get into their they have to fight. I mean, at
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: the end of the book, I have you know, you know,
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: I basically quote church Hill. You know, we will fight
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: them in the fields, we will fight them in we
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: will fight them.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: We will never surrender, you know. I mean that's really
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: where we are right now. We're kind of.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: In that moment and we have to engage in the fight.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: But we have to understand what victory is too. Victory
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: is not oh, you know, we won the White House,
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: and well you know, now we'll take care of our
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: guys on Wall Street instead of the other ones. You no, no,
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: we're going to end it. We're going to change it.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: We're going to a new future, and we will not
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: burden our children and our grandchildren with the debt of
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: this nation, which is what's happening today.
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: So what is the party now? What is the Democratic Party?
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: Is it's supposed to be a coalition of three or
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: four different factions? Is it a party in and of itself?
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: Should we have a narrower definition of what is a democrat?
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: A broader You know, people say big ten when they want,
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: when they hope that not everybody has to agree on everything,
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: and then others will argue no, there needs to be
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: a real distinction between Team R and Team D. The
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: what's the answer.
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: Here, Well, I hope, I hope it's that we're a
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: very big party that encompasses a lot of different groups
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: who may not agree on everything, but agree on some
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: very big things. I mean, that's where we have to go.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: We have to rebuild a coalition. The Democrats had an
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: electoral coalition when Franklin Roosevelt was elected and re elected,
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: and I think they achieved briefly a coalition again when
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: Barack Obama was elected the first time and was able
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: to be re elected. I mean, he was the only
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: Democratic president who was elected and re elected with the
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: majority of votes since Roosevelts. Okay, right, you know, And
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: so now the Obama coalition was different than the rose
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, the Roosevelt haw the solid South, and he
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: had you know, farmers and workers, and he had you know, immigrants,
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: you know in part. And he had a black vote,
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: which was a smaller vote because he couldn't vote in
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: a lot of places, you know, but you know, and
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: Obama built this thing powered by young people in many ways.
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, the phenomenon of young people in two thousand
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: and eight is something that is still I find so remarkable.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: You know, that he could go into you know, Indiana,
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: and he could go into North Carolina, and he could
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: win both states that Democrats couldn't touch for generations and
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: only win eighteen to twenty nine year olds one age
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: cohort that was the only age Codehart he won.
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: And yet he won these states.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: And you know, and I think I believe Bernie had
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: the potential to I'm not saying we would have won
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: Indiana or North Carolina and made about others, but I
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: think we might have surprised people in a lot of
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: other states by his ability to go in and build
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: a winning coalition.
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: So I have I have flip flopped myself on this
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: answer about whether it couldn't Bernie have beaten Trump? And
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: I was a no for a long time, and I'm
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: not I'm not a know anymore. I think that when
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: you a lot of it would have depended on how
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: Obama endorsement. I really believe that would have mattered. I
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: believe he would have done it right. How would he
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: have done it? How was he going to put his
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: arm around him? Was Bernie going to go with somebody
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: to his right as his running mate? Right? There's a
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: few curiosities I have of what the ticket might have
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: looked like. But I do think he was speaking to
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: an anger on the economic front. But I don't know
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: right if he had been too closely tied to Obama,
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: would that have been a problem. I don't know what
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: the red answer would have been had he been the dominating.
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: Well, well, I have no doubt that Obama would have
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: done the right thing, and he would have done it
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: in a way that was enormously powerful.
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, he and Michelle, I mean the speeches.
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: Think that it would have been unbelievable if he had
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: stepped into that breach, and I think Bertie would have benefited. Now,
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: as to the question of who would have won, you know,
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: and I write about this this book, I completely believe
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: in my heart and soul that Bernie would have beaten Trump,
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: you know, and for a lot of reasons. Basically, it
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: was because it was a change election, and that's why
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: Hillary couldn't win, because she could never be the change
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: candidate and Trump was the obvious change candidate, you know.
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: But the best evidence of this, you know, I think
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: the open primary is a great evidence. The polling where
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: Bernie was always better as great evidence. But for me,
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: the Trump card, no pun intended that I throw down
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: to the end is Tony Fabrizio at the Harvard post
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: election seminar when the leader of the discussion said, well,
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: if yeah, and everybody who knows Tony and I haven't,
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: I know Tony a little bit, you know, and worked
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: with him on other stuff not in US politics, you know,
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: and you know, I Frezio just says what he wants
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: to say. And I remember I remember going to that
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: Harvard thing myself, okay after one of the I think
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: was after carry and we were all we're battling the
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: Bush guys back and forth, and I said, and I'm said,
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: they were shrum and we're really going at him. And
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: I said, you know, I had this rule. He called
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: it the too Tony rule, and the too Tony rose
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: This that if Tony Couello was quoted on the front
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: page of the New York Times the Washingon Post, or
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: if Tony Fabrizio was quoted on the front page, it
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: was Quello, we had a bad day, and Fabrizio, you
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: guys had.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: A bad day.
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: And everybody started laughing because a Brasio would just tell
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: it like it is. So when he was at the
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: Post Trump to two that was sixteen. The guy said, well,
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: if it had been Sanders, who would have won? And
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: he said, well, yeah, it would have been Sanders, okay,
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: because the white working class vote that made the difference
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: to us would not be available and Bertie would have
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: gotten it. Again, that's the entire thing right there. Well,
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: when you look at.
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: The right, right, if it really was a three state election, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania,
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: uh and and uh sign Michigan and frankly, boy, I
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: would have you know, I know one state have been
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: a lot closer, and I'd have been Ohio, right like
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: that's and and who knows about Iowa on those two fronts,
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: you know, she was you know, I don't think I've
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: always said she was uniquely hard to sell in Iowa.
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: Some of it's not fair. There's still some built in
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: sexism issues that you know. I know that she was
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: just uniquely hard to sell in Iowa and Ohio, I think.
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: But those three states that the so called blue wall
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: he had a connection to, there was an enthusiasm amongst
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: the labor union vote that he created that you hadn't
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: seen in the blue collar trades in a long time,
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: for a time.
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: I agree, and and and and you say in terms
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: of vice president.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: I have not.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: I never had this conversation with Bernie now, but I
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: was in the room with them a lot. I listened
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: to I saw the way he talked about people and everything,
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: and I believe, should he had been successful, I think
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: he would ask Shared Brown to run on it.
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: I was just gonna say, don't say it. Let me guess.
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: I said it was Sharon Brown. You know, Tad, I'll
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: tell you that working people in Ohio, the working people
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: of Vermont, they understand each other. No, I've always thought
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: I could I could have.
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: I could have worked on that impression as much as
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: I do Bernie. Okay, so I I I really was hoping.
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: I really thought Shared Brown was the perfect potential nominee
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: for the Democrats in twenty that I think, forget you
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: know everything else. Right, a little bit younger than Biden
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: and Bernie, but he had he truly had one foot
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: in both places. The establishment didn't fear him, but the
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: but the working class pace trusted him. I mean, that's
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: a that's a unique skill set and it is. Look,
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: he chose to stand down because Biden decided to run,
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: and he knew that Biden was just gonna nobble up
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: that territory.
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, that's a what But I I just
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: think they would have been really strong together, talk about
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: stronger together.
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: That was it? Okay, I'm sorry that would Bernie have
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: said yes to a Clinton running me? You know, we never.
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: Really thought it was going to happen, and you know,
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: I you know, I don't see why not. I mean,
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: you know, it would certainly be a it's a big house,
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: you know, to live.
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: In it, you know, forty No, it is, it is.
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: And I and I think he would have I think
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: I think he would have gone in and I'll do this.
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: But you know, if you support X, Y and Z,
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: which would evolve in policy, would have been a complete
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: policy thing for him, I think, you know, so.
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: Can you imagine?
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: I mean he asked me and I read about this
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: book and the last night, you know, he says, who
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: do you think they'll big vice president? I said, well,
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: probably you know Tim Kane. I think he was like really,
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: And it wasn't like he didn't like Tim Kane or
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: respect him or think he was a good guy or
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: any a good senator. It's because it's like why, you know,
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: And I was like, well, they have a different view
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: of the election, Bernie, they think it's all.
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: About going to the middle and again, and you know, it.
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: Expanded the electorate bringing all these people in that we're
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: deb before.
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: I mean the Trump view.
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: You know, he just had a different group of people
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: than we had, so you know that, but that's you know,
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: I really think we could have had a very powerful record.
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: And I also think that, you know, and I talked
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: about this in the book too, that in twenty twenty
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: four it would have been much better for the Democratic
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: Party not to say we're all jumping behind the vice
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: president that's it, which is basically what happened in sixty eight. Okay,
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: I mean Tom Free suddenly is to nominate. You know,
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: it would have been better to say, listen, those people
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: got elected to be delegates, they're all released from you know,
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: they can vote for whoever they want. We're going to
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: have a contest for these four thousand representatives of voters
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: at the convention itself. And instead of everybody going to
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: Trump's trials all the time, they would have come to
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: our convention.
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: Okay. And it gets you know, this gets at the
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: attention economy. The Democratic Party is afraid of being on
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: center stage. Donald Trump's like, I don't care what the
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: stage is, if it's a courtroom, if it's a prison cell,
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: if it's a UFC cage match. As long as the
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: spotlight works, let's go. I completely agree. Make it an event.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: You want to talk about ratings, right, you have been
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty five million Americans tuning into that.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: I know. It would have been like the super Bowl,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: so you know, and it would have been worthy of
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: an audience. I know, when you're deciding who one of
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: the two people to run for break, maybe that ought
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: to be a super Bowl sized audience.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: You see, the problem is that the establishment is risk
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: adverse and politics is a risk business.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: Okay, you know, and that's isn't it crazy? The DNC,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: it's funny and I'm I'm going to turn into a
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: DNC bashing section, But what you just said just now,
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: the DNC has been the most risk averse organization frankly,
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: for my entire professional career. They've always been afraid of voters,
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: afraid of attention, of afraid of the press, of for
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: you know, whatever it is. There is always a reason
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: to say no. They never look for a reason to
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: say yes.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well they need they need a reason to say yes.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: You know, I remember reading about when you know John
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: Lennon was first interested in Yoko Ono.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: She's had an art display.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: And you know he went to the arch disp plane
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: and he went up to the top of the arch
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: display and pulled on a little lever and inside it
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: said yes, okay. And you know that's what the Democratic
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: Party needs to do. Climb up Yoko's ladder and see
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: what it says okay, because that's where you need to go.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: Well, we'll see. Do you think Bernie, even if he
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: doesn't run in twenty eight, that he'll win the primary
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: in twenty eight? You get my Do you feel like
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: that he'll finally Well, I listen to know that everything
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: he did in sixteen and twenty leads to him leading
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: essentially being the godfather of whoever it is that wins
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: in twenty eight.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't think he should run in twenty eight, Okay.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: I think he's too old to run, and I think
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: he knows the wreck. I have no idea. I haven't
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: talked to him in a long time, and I mean,
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: I love Bernie on a certain level, and Bernie and
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: I banged heads on a certain level, you know, But
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: I think that would be a big mistake, and I
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: don't think he would do that.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: I really don't think. Yeah, you know, he's he's got
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: a recognie. And I watch him with AOC in a way.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: I've seen him campaign with rope Conna and some others
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: that want to be their apparent. I feel like he
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: only seems to see AOC is the most worthy so far.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't know about I mean, I listen, again,
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: I'm not inside that tent at the moment, but I
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: will say this, when I see him with Mendami, it's
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: I feel like he's his son, you know.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: What I mean.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: Can't run Yeah, well you know, you know, but but
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: but I just feel like, who's who's he's closest to.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: That's the close AOC, you know. I listen.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: I think AOC is an incredible politician and I have
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: a lot of respect for her, and I write about
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: that in the book. But I also think if she
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: wanted my advice, my advice would be, Okay, there's a
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: Senate seat open in your state against somebody really big,
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: and if you want to show people how you can
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: win the presidency.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: That's how I'm a good way to do it, you
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: know what I mean. And also and once you get
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: in there, just like there are another argument though for
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: her running for president, which is never bide your time.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: If somebody you know, meaning you, if you're moments there,
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: you better take it. It could be that there's never
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: a moment that will be better for her style of politics,
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: even if maybe she's not quite ready to do it.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: And I understand that, and I do think you have
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: to take your opportunities in politics. But I also think
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: this that the threshold of credibility for the presidency is
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: the single highest threshold in all of politics, Okay, that
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: people have to feel that you are credible and can
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: do the job as president. And I think for someone
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: like her, who is she's young, and I do think
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of misogyny out there in politics that
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: women have to overcome and skins, I do not share
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: the view that a woman cannot be elected as president.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: I do not believe in that.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: I've done too many campaigns for people who you know,
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: people said, you know, this guy, he's black, can't win
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: the election for sheriff in Jacksonville. Well he did win it, okay,
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: because we had the right candidate with the right message,
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: and I think that would happen. But I think when
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: you're going for president, you have to recognize that high threshold.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: And if you satisfy it by doing something like Obama did,
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: which is going from state senator to United States senator, Okay,
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: then you can start running the day you get elected.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: And you know, and I think that's the right path.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: You got to you got to make your moment, but
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: you've got to understand it. Think you're coming around the turn,
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: that's when you make the move with the horse, okay,
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: not you know, you know, at the first turn.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: Okay. So so I just think that that would make
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: a lot of sense. So well, then who is it? Who?
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: Who's your Who's going to be the primary for Bertie's affection?
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: Is it? Listen? Bro?
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: I know I know Roe of all the people, and
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: I like Roe a lot. I mean, he's really smart, okay.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: And he also he has an understanding of what it
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: is to be a candidate who leads a multi racial
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: coalition in America.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: Okay. That's Obama really understood. He's been I know him
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: a little bit too, and he is very actually very
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: forward leaning. On the following he's been thinking about this
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: a very long time. Yeah, he's been you know, it's
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: like Bill Clinton the Boys steak. He's been thinking about
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: this a while. I know.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's he's he's quite capable, and I think if
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: he runs, he could be formidable. But you know, we
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: don't really know that the voters will know what they
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: want and what they're looking for, and so listen. And
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: the way it is with the voters is and I
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: remember Paul Tully used to say this, you know, because
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: we'd like lose.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: I think it was the night we lost to.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: Gary Hart and Ohio and I'm sitting there with Tully
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: a like eleven thirty, trying to do all the dellg
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: and stuff, and I was like, what do you think happened?
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: He said, sometimes the dogs don't like the dog food,
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: And it's like, you know, and that's just the way
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: it is the politics you go to.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: Okay, now let's move down to Janet Mills. That's what
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: we learned in in Maine. It didn't matter what Janet
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: Mills said and did I mean it? You know, they
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: gotta want what you're selling, even if they even if
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: they may agree with you. That the other product's not
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: very good? Yeah, what about your product?
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: And you know, and as a candidate, you have to
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: connect with voters that can is so vital to be
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: able to win.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: That easy to say, and it's really hard to find out.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: Absolutely there's no magic way to get there except trying
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: to understand them and trying to understand how we could lead.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: Them to rest. Go. If I showed you the Bernie
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: Sanders talking points and floor speeches from c SPAN in
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: two thousand, spy from the House floor, and I said
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: to you, this man's going to lead a movement in
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: this country and this will be really effective advertising in
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, would you have agreed with me? Well? No,
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: I mean sometimes we don't know as much for him.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, But I want to tell you, and that's
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: a good example because if you get back to that,
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: all those afternoons that he go down on the floor
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: and give those floor speeches from the house year.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: Basically just him and Ron Paul, right, the only two
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: guys of the house floor.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: Back, they're going, okay, So now you fast forward from that.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: Now it's you know, two thousand and the beginning of
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, we're sitting around Bill press's living room having
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: some discussions, and one of the people there was had
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: for Obama, and you know, and I was, I was
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: sort of asking questions at that point, and I said, listen,
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: how many email addresses did Obama have when you set
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: up the headquarters in Chicago?
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: Said? Oh, we had about seventeen thousand email addresses.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: So then I was Phil Fermonte, is there, you know,
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: one of Bernie's guys said, and I said, how many
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: email addresses?
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: How do you guys have right now? Said four hundred thousand?
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: Okay, you know, And so so think of that was
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: all those speecies from Bernie all those years.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: It's a movement that took, you know, decades to build
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: that we don't fully appreciate.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: And he built it brick by brick, and he sent
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: these people these four page long, single space fundraising letters
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: about what all the things we need to do, and
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: those people were there. And then when the campaign started,
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: we and you know, and then we started filling up
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: these auditorious and now we got twenty five thousand more emails,
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: which you know, suddenly we can talk to people.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: Look, look, I love a good war story book, and
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: I am so glad you wrote because a lot of
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: guys in your position don't like to write books because
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: I feel like you're you don't. It's hard to write everything,
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: you know, because you might violate it a some sort
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: of private thing, right, and I may have.
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of stuff I didn't put
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: in the book, you know, because I just couldn't.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: You know it, I feel like you did it. I
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: didn't feel like I didn't sound like you violated anybody,
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: but it is. I'm glad to get your view, and
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: I like, I want to sell this. You've seen it
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: from both seats. You've been on the insider seat and
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: the outsider seat, so you certainly have more credibility to
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: identify I hope. So.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, I tried to write an honest book, and frankly, Chuck,
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't have written it if a major publisher hadn't
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: rolled out the red copper to me and said.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: Could you write a book? Okay? So I was like, okay,
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: it's an off the air. I'm not that business. A
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: lot of a lot of my listeners are gonna be like, hey,
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: I want can I get that email? I want that
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: email for you for responding to it. Tad it's great
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: to catch up, joy to see you, luck with everything.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much,