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Delphi Murders: Sweet Girls Abby & Libby Wear SCARVES to Cover Neck Wounds at Funerals · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease.
0:14
Speaker 2: Will there ever be justice for Abby and Libby?
0:20
Speaker 3: The two beautiful little girls that were slaughtered in Delphi
0:26
Speaker 3: with a pharmacy tech behind bars awaiting trial.
0:31
Speaker 2: In the last days, wild.
0:33
Speaker 3: Rumors have surfaced that one of the girls was decapitated
0:42
Speaker 3: or near decapitated. Another rumor that the wrong guys behind
0:49
Speaker 3: bars and the real killer is walking free. Yeah, they
0:54
Speaker 3: said that about O. J. Simpson too, didn't they? And
0:58
Speaker 3: Scott Peterson and Robert Blake Gosh, I could go on
1:04
Speaker 3: and on about the real killers that are walking free.
1:09
Speaker 2: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
1:12
Speaker 3: Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories
1:15
Speaker 3: and on Serious XM one eleven. Let's talk about the
1:19
Speaker 3: truth as the trial approaches. What is the truth about
1:27
Speaker 3: the murders of these two beautiful little girls? Joining me
1:33
Speaker 3: an all star panel to make sense of what we
1:35
Speaker 3: know right now.
1:36
Speaker 2: But first I want to go to Barbara.
1:38
Speaker 3: McDonald joining us COURTV documentary producer and co host of
1:44
Speaker 3: Down the Heel podcast. Barbara McDonald, thank you for being
1:49
Speaker 3: with us along with her Susan Hendrix, journalist and author
1:53
Speaker 3: of Down the Hill, My Descent into the.
1:56
Speaker 2: Double murder in Delphi.
1:58
Speaker 3: My former colleague at h Barbara Susan, thank you for
2:02
Speaker 3: being with us. First of all, Barbara, in all of
2:06
Speaker 3: your research, in everything you have discovered in your Down
2:10
Speaker 3: the Hill podcast, have you ever heard anything about one
2:15
Speaker 3: of these two little girls, Libby or Abby, being decapitated.
2:21
Speaker 4: No, not to that extent. I've heard near decapitation, but
2:26
Speaker 4: that was very early on in the investigation, and I
2:29
Speaker 4: think it largely came from those text messages that are
2:33
Speaker 4: attributed to Abby's step uncle or half uncle, David Erskine,
2:40
Speaker 4: who claims in those text messages, if they're legitimate, that
2:44
Speaker 4: he was one of the volunteers to have found the bodies,
2:48
Speaker 4: and he recounted some of the things that he claimed
2:52
Speaker 4: existed at the crime scene. And with regard to the girls,
2:56
Speaker 4: I know that there's a lot of information contained in
2:59
Speaker 4: those messages that is not accurate, and that's one of them.
3:05
Speaker 3: What information would our skin have written or texted that
3:09
Speaker 3: would suggest one of the girls was decapitated or near decapitator.
3:13
Speaker 4: Well, we do know from the defense filings that the
3:15
Speaker 4: girls had fatal injuries to their necks that were caused
3:19
Speaker 4: by some sort of an edged weapon, and it's possible
3:22
Speaker 4: that a volunteer who came upon that scene might have
3:26
Speaker 4: thought it looked perhaps different than it actually was, But
3:30
Speaker 4: my understanding is that both girls were completely intact.
3:35
Speaker 3: New rumors are swirling to Cheryl McCollum, my longtime friend
3:39
Speaker 3: and colleague, forensic expert, founder, director of the Cold Case
3:42
Speaker 3: Research Institute, and star of Zone seventh Hit podcast, Cheryl McCollum,
3:48
Speaker 3: I don't understand how it benefits anyone to keep on
3:56
Speaker 3: gossip about these two little girls, gossip like.
4:03
Speaker 2: The real killer as someone else.
4:06
Speaker 3: The real killer is walking free, that Libby was near
4:11
Speaker 3: beheaded quote out of rage.
4:15
Speaker 5: Why Nancy, You and I both know there's a big
4:20
Speaker 5: difference between verified information and potentially harmful speculation and rumor.
4:27
Speaker 5: You have to ask yourself, how does this benefit the
4:31
Speaker 5: family of these girls, How does this benefit law enforcement?
4:35
Speaker 5: How does this benefit the prosecution? And the answer down
4:39
Speaker 5: the line is it doesn't not at all. So to me,
4:43
Speaker 5: this can only be just reduced to almost a carnival barker.
4:48
Speaker 5: You're just trying to get hits and lights and people
4:51
Speaker 5: to watch what you're doing, That's all this is. And
4:54
Speaker 5: when you're relying on people that we never heard from
4:59
Speaker 5: you're relying on people that are ex'es or somewhere on
5:02
Speaker 5: the perimeter that they've kept this knowledge.
5:05
Speaker 3: Well, hold on, I know where you're headed Without Cheryl McCollum,
5:08
Speaker 3: The very wild Delphi murder theory has now reared its
5:14
Speaker 3: ugly head again. An ex girlfriend ex girlfriend of a
5:20
Speaker 3: former person of interest Ron Logan, insists that he Logan
5:28
Speaker 3: is the real killer, not the pharmacy tap behind bars
5:33
Speaker 3: who has admitted to the murders, who had the gun,
5:38
Speaker 3: whose bullet was found at the scene between the two
5:42
Speaker 3: dead bodies, and it's cycled through his gun used as a.
5:46
Speaker 2: Scare technique on the girls. You know how somebody like
5:49
Speaker 2: in the movies cocks the gun and twists the barrel.
5:53
Speaker 3: That's what he did, and one of those bullets fell
5:58
Speaker 3: out of his gun and his demonstrations to the two victims.
6:03
Speaker 3: Long story short, that bullet matches the gun at the
6:09
Speaker 3: defendant's home. That is incredibly probative, proves something. But that said,
6:16
Speaker 3: I want you to hear cut one three four, Jackie.
6:21
Speaker 3: I want you to hear our friend Rachel Benia from
6:24
Speaker 3: Crime Online.
6:25
Speaker 6: Connie Dilman is the ex girlfriend of Ron Logan. She
6:28
Speaker 6: claims they met in a bar and hit it off
6:30
Speaker 6: over their love of horses and the outdoors. Their six
6:33
Speaker 6: year relationship had come to an end by the time
6:36
Speaker 6: of the Delphi murders, and Dilman believes ron Logan is
6:39
Speaker 6: the killer. She says the voice on the tape saying
6:42
Speaker 6: down the Hill is absolutely him. She also claims that
6:46
Speaker 6: Logan was violent and when she refused him sex one night,
6:49
Speaker 6: he hit her with a wrench, causing seven stitches. Dilman
6:53
Speaker 6: has yet to say why she waited until now to
6:55
Speaker 6: speak up. Ron Logan died in twenty twenty two of
6:59
Speaker 6: COVID nineteen.
7:00
Speaker 3: You know to you Kim Dunlap joining us a reporter
7:03
Speaker 3: from Cocobo Tribune, and Kim, thank you for being with us.
7:05
Speaker 3: Why was Logan a poy personal interest to start with,
7:10
Speaker 3: other than the bodies were found on his property?
7:12
Speaker 7: You know, I feel like, at one point, especially early on,
7:16
Speaker 7: everyone you know that that matched the sketch was potentially
7:20
Speaker 7: the suspect. And I feel like Ron Logan, to a
7:23
Speaker 7: lot of people, matched that first sketch. Now there was
7:25
Speaker 7: the second sketch that came out looked a lot different
7:28
Speaker 7: than the first one, But I feel like a lot
7:31
Speaker 7: of it was just because this is his property. He
7:34
Speaker 7: you know, he went on I think a couple you know,
7:38
Speaker 7: talk shows or a couple you know, media outlets back
7:41
Speaker 7: then and kind of talked about the case in the beginning.
7:44
Speaker 7: But you know, you kind of talked to the people
7:47
Speaker 7: in town, you know, at the time, and he had
7:51
Speaker 7: a search warrant at his house and you kind of
7:52
Speaker 7: talked to people at the time and oh, we got him,
7:55
Speaker 7: we got him, you know, we got Ron Logan, this
7:57
Speaker 7: is the guy. And then it sort of went away.
7:59
Speaker 7: You know, it came back a couple of years ago.
8:00
Speaker 7: But I mean, really, I think it was just the
8:03
Speaker 7: nature of the beast back then that if you went
8:06
Speaker 7: public with any information about Delphi, that you were just
8:10
Speaker 7: you know, automatically, especially if you look like that sketch,
8:13
Speaker 7: you fit that person. You were them, You were that person,
8:17
Speaker 7: You were the bridge guy.
8:18
Speaker 3: So why was Ron Logan a person of interest at
8:23
Speaker 3: the beginning of this investigation and why have new rumors
8:27
Speaker 3: resurfaced now?
8:29
Speaker 2: Listen Sidney Sumner from Crime Stories.
8:32
Speaker 8: Ron Logan was a person of interest when Libby Jermyan
8:35
Speaker 8: and Abby Williams were murdered. Their bodies were found on
8:37
Speaker 8: his property, his house, only fourteen hundred feet from where
8:41
Speaker 8: the girls were discovered. Logan matched the appearance of the
8:44
Speaker 8: man in the blue jacket walking on the bridge that
8:46
Speaker 8: was captured in snapchat footage taken by the girls just
8:50
Speaker 8: before they disappeared. The girls took a video where a
8:52
Speaker 8: heavy set man in a blue jacket is heard saying
8:55
Speaker 8: down the hill. Investigators have long believed the voice on
8:58
Speaker 8: the film belongs to someone who took part in the
9:00
Speaker 8: murders or did it by himself. Ron Logan was questioned
9:04
Speaker 8: by detectives at length. They sweated him in jail over
9:07
Speaker 8: a probation violation, but when his alibi checked out, police
9:10
Speaker 8: let him go and moved on to other potential suspects.
9:27
Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace.
9:30
Speaker 3: Let me ask this, Cheryl McCollum joining us from Zoe seven.
9:37
Speaker 2: Cheryl, why now, why.
9:39
Speaker 3: Is this re emerging now closed by an ex girlfriend
9:44
Speaker 3: that Ron Logan is the killer, not the perp sitting
9:48
Speaker 3: behind bars who has confessed.
9:49
Speaker 5: Apparently she has come out and said, that's his voice,
9:53
Speaker 5: that's him on the bridge. I knew it when they
9:56
Speaker 5: first released it. And then she goes on to say
9:59
Speaker 5: that she called the tip line to even report it.
10:03
Speaker 5: But I don't know where in the last seven years
10:05
Speaker 5: she's been. I don't know how forceful she was with
10:09
Speaker 5: her understanding and determination that this was in fact Ron Logan.
10:14
Speaker 4: He hasn't been forceful, but she has been talking. She has.
10:19
Speaker 4: I first met her in twenty twenty one and heard
10:23
Speaker 4: her story, and then after she and I spoke, she
10:27
Speaker 4: did start participating in some of the Facebook groups and
10:31
Speaker 4: commenting online with a bit of her story.
10:35
Speaker 3: White white, white, white white, Barbara McDonald, I'm all about
10:40
Speaker 3: people participating in Facebook groups, But did she go to
10:43
Speaker 3: police at the time she heard Down the Hill and
10:46
Speaker 3: say that is love?
10:49
Speaker 4: She told me in twenty twenty one that she did
10:51
Speaker 4: in fact do that, and that she did in fact
10:53
Speaker 4: have an interview with the FBI around that time.
10:57
Speaker 3: And at that juncture, let me go to Susan Hendrick's
10:59
Speaker 3: joining journalist and author of Down the Hill, my descended
11:03
Speaker 3: to the double murder in Delphi.
11:05
Speaker 2: Susan, thank you for being with us.
11:08
Speaker 3: If she spoke to detectives in twenty twenty one and
11:14
Speaker 3: they followed up, they actually held Logan, questioned him and
11:20
Speaker 3: investigated him and let him go. What more can you
11:23
Speaker 3: tell us, Susan Hendricks.
11:25
Speaker 9: Thanks for having me, Nancy, it's great to be on.
11:27
Speaker 9: And there were other names mentioned throughout this long period
11:30
Speaker 9: of time, close to six years before anyone was in custody,
11:34
Speaker 9: Daniel Nations, Paul Ederging, Shadwell, Keeping Klein, Tony Klein, and
11:39
Speaker 9: of course Ron Logan, who were discussing. And I did
11:42
Speaker 9: see the sound from his ex girlfriend and I felt
11:45
Speaker 9: for her, but I believe it's confirmation biased she sees
11:48
Speaker 9: what she wants to see. What was telling to me
11:52
Speaker 9: was that there were never any charges against Ron Logan.
11:55
Speaker 9: Two searches of his property too in March twenty seventeen,
12:00
Speaker 9: and he was never arrested or charged with the crime.
12:04
Speaker 9: So that was telling to me. And you spoke of
12:06
Speaker 9: kind of the craziness going on around this, and I
12:09
Speaker 9: told Becky this morning, I sent her a text that
12:11
Speaker 9: I was going to be on your show, and she said,
12:14
Speaker 9: there's so much craziness right now that if you talked
12:16
Speaker 9: about that, you'd be on the show for hours. So
12:19
Speaker 9: there is a gag order. They take it seriously, but
12:21
Speaker 9: they're very aware of all of this chaos going on,
12:24
Speaker 9: and it's certainly not helping me all I want.
12:26
Speaker 3: To circle back Cheryl McCollum to her coming forward and climbing.
12:30
Speaker 3: That's my ex boyfriend right there, the one that beat me.
12:35
Speaker 3: The offense if I'm wrong, correct me if I am
12:38
Speaker 3: was February thirteen, two thy seventeen, and she goes forward
12:45
Speaker 3: claiming as her ex boyfriend in twenty twenty.
12:47
Speaker 4: No, she went forward in twenty seventeen. It was short.
12:52
Speaker 4: It was within days or a week or two.
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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I thought you said twenty twenty one.
12:57
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, no, no, I spoke to her in twenty
12:59
Speaker 4: twenty one and she told me her story. But yeah,
13:02
Speaker 4: she did speak to the FBI back in the very
13:06
Speaker 4: early days of the investigation when the FBI was very
13:09
Speaker 4: active involved in that investigation. And I just wanted to
13:13
Speaker 4: correct one other thing. That taped piece you played said
13:16
Speaker 4: that his alibi checked out. Ron Logan's alibi did not
13:21
Speaker 4: check out, and that is one of the things that
13:23
Speaker 4: I think gives some wiggle room here and a big
13:27
Speaker 4: question mark on him, is he does not have an alibi.
13:30
Speaker 4: According to cell tower data, his phone was at his
13:34
Speaker 4: property at two nine pm. We know from the video
13:37
Speaker 4: that Libby took on her phone that the girls were
13:39
Speaker 4: approached on the bridge at two thirteen. Ron had claimed
13:43
Speaker 4: for many years that he was on surveillance video at
13:46
Speaker 4: this tropical fish store in Lafayette, some thirty minutes away,
13:50
Speaker 4: but that store didn't have surveillance video, so there is
13:53
Speaker 4: no proof that he was elsewhere. His phone puts him
13:57
Speaker 4: near his property. That does not mean that he's the
14:00
Speaker 4: killer of the girls, but his alibi does not check out.
14:03
Speaker 3: Cheryl McCollum was his alibi confirmed by people that worked
14:09
Speaker 3: at the store.
14:10
Speaker 5: My memory is he had a receipt, but the time
14:14
Speaker 5: still gave him enough room that he could have gone
14:18
Speaker 5: to the store and back in the period of time
14:21
Speaker 5: that the girls went missing and were been killed. But
14:25
Speaker 5: I want to point out something. In the seven years
14:29
Speaker 5: that this has been investigated and been highlighted, law enforcement,
14:35
Speaker 5: the volunteer searchers, and the family have not leaked information
14:43
Speaker 5: to the general public. There was so much we never knew.
14:47
Speaker 5: We never knew how they were murdered, We never knew
14:50
Speaker 5: exactly how they were found clothed or unclothed. Nobody violated that,
14:55
Speaker 5: so I am again questioning the timing of somebody that
14:59
Speaker 5: will to come in and violate it. Now so close
15:03
Speaker 5: to trial this coming October.
15:05
Speaker 3: What are you talking about, Cheryl, Don't be mysterious. Who
15:08
Speaker 3: do you believe has violated a gag order?
15:11
Speaker 5: What I'm saying is, I'm not trying to be mysterious.
15:13
Speaker 5: I'm trying to be straight out with it. All of
15:15
Speaker 5: these people have kept information. How are paper that's never
15:21
Speaker 5: been what?
15:22
Speaker 2: Who do you believe has violated a gag order?
15:25
Speaker 5: I don't know that they violated a gag order because
15:27
Speaker 5: I think they're on the perimeter of it. The girlfriend's
15:30
Speaker 5: not under a gag order. These cousins or aunts and
15:33
Speaker 5: whatnot or not under a gag order. My point is,
15:36
Speaker 5: I don't know why they would at this point try
15:40
Speaker 5: to say things this close to trial that are only
15:45
Speaker 5: for shock value.
15:46
Speaker 3: Are you talking about so called documentaries that claim the
15:49
Speaker 3: girls are decapitated or near decapitated and claims the wrong
15:53
Speaker 3: person is and claims the wrong person is behind bars
15:56
Speaker 3: and that the real killer is Ron Logan?
15:59
Speaker 2: Claims like that, of course, one hundred percent, Cheryl.
16:02
Speaker 3: Speaking of what is true and that we know you
16:07
Speaker 3: obtained information about how.
16:11
Speaker 2: Is the best way to put it.
16:12
Speaker 3: How the girls were buried, how were they clothed for burial.
16:17
Speaker 2: What can you tell us?
16:18
Speaker 5: I know that they had scarves around their necks, and
16:22
Speaker 5: I think there's at least two other people on this
16:25
Speaker 5: panel today that heard the same information. So again we
16:29
Speaker 5: know quite possibly their throats were cut. I don't think
16:34
Speaker 5: that would be a shock to any expert in this
16:36
Speaker 5: country looking at a double homicide of two young females
16:39
Speaker 5: that were also more than likely sexually assaulted. But again,
16:44
Speaker 5: that's not something that we ever talked about. That is
16:47
Speaker 5: not something we ever put out there for the integrity
16:50
Speaker 5: of this case and out of respect for the family.
16:53
Speaker 5: But I too spoke to a family member and told
16:55
Speaker 5: them that I was going to be on today and
16:58
Speaker 5: that I was going to be as up front is
17:00
Speaker 5: I possibly could well.
17:02
Speaker 3: People on the inside of the case or near the family.
17:06
Speaker 2: We have known for a long.
17:07
Speaker 3: Time that the throats have been slashed, but claims of
17:11
Speaker 3: a decapitation or a near decapitation and that the wrong
17:15
Speaker 3: person is behind bars, that's all new to me.
17:21
Speaker 2: I don't know that any of that is true.
17:23
Speaker 3: Joe Scott Morgan joining US Professor Forensics Jacksonville State University
17:28
Speaker 3: and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, host
17:31
Speaker 3: of a Hit series Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan.
17:34
Speaker 3: Joe Scott, you have studied the case from the very beginning.
17:39
Speaker 3: I'm trying to sort out what's true and what's not true.
17:42
Speaker 3: And bottom line is is somehow all of these pronouncements,
17:48
Speaker 3: many of them baseless, Is that somehow going to hurt
17:53
Speaker 3: the trial? What can you tell me about your analysis
17:57
Speaker 3: of what happened?
17:58
Speaker 10: The idea relative to the deaths of these two young girls.
18:04
Speaker 10: I've held from the beginning that they were specifically targeted and.
18:10
Speaker 3: Well, what do you mean by that they were spotted
18:12
Speaker 3: in the park that day or the day?
18:14
Speaker 10: I think that being stalked. Okay, yeah, let me rephrase that.
18:21
Speaker 10: I think that there was probably an awareness of these
18:25
Speaker 10: young girls.
18:25
Speaker 3: Well, for Pete's sake, the defendant was the pharmacy tech
18:28
Speaker 3: right there in the middle of town.
18:29
Speaker 2: He knew them and their families.
18:31
Speaker 10: Or correct about that. And so my thought is is
18:35
Speaker 10: that this was an opportunistic event where the individual was
18:40
Speaker 10: looking for targets because they had an awareness of the
18:44
Speaker 10: school being out that particular day they had the individual
18:49
Speaker 10: that is, the perpetrator in this case, had a pre
18:52
Speaker 10: a preset location where he was going to take them
18:56
Speaker 10: to where he would have time with them or whichever
18:59
Speaker 10: vicy them had come along at that particular time that
19:02
Speaker 10: would suit his needs, and it would be in a
19:06
Speaker 10: location where he could have access to them, have privacy
19:10
Speaker 10: with them. Because if what we are hearing about the
19:13
Speaker 10: crime scene, this is a complex crime scene, I think
19:18
Speaker 10: with a lot of evidence that was down immediately adjacent
19:22
Speaker 10: to the bodies. Now we've gotten off you know, chasing rabbits,
19:26
Speaker 10: I think relative to a lot of this stuff that's
19:30
Speaker 10: floating around out there about how they could potentially have been,
19:34
Speaker 10: you know, sacrificed by odinist and all these sorts of things.
19:38
Speaker 10: But at its bare bones, what does the science tell us,
19:41
Speaker 10: And we don't have a lot that has been released
19:44
Speaker 10: to this point relative to them. I think one of
19:47
Speaker 10: the most disturbing things is you've got admittedly a lot
19:51
Speaker 10: of intimate contact that's going on, but yet we don't
19:55
Speaker 10: have DNA linkage that goes back to the primary suspect
19:59
Speaker 10: in this case.
19:59
Speaker 3: About under the girl's fingernails, specifically Libby's.
20:03
Speaker 10: Yeah, and I think that that is a potential place
20:06
Speaker 10: to harvest that DNA from because you're going to have
20:09
Speaker 10: somebody that's fighting back for folks that don't know how
20:13
Speaker 10: this works. If you think about a plow going into
20:16
Speaker 10: kind of virgin soil and it's dragging along creates furrows,
20:21
Speaker 10: that's one of the things that you begin to think
20:22
Speaker 10: about with the fingernails, where you're going to capture skin, blood,
20:25
Speaker 10: air that's beneath the fingernails, and they would have done. Look,
20:30
Speaker 10: they didn't just do nail scrapings and nail clippings at autopsy.
20:34
Speaker 10: They did rape kits as well. Nancy, I can almost
20:38
Speaker 10: perfectly guarantee that they also did alternative lighting photography, which
20:43
Speaker 10: is using things like infrared if you can pick up
20:45
Speaker 10: on anything, any kind of marks on the body. I
20:48
Speaker 10: hope that they did all of this. They put on
20:50
Speaker 10: a full court press with this to try to collect
20:52
Speaker 10: as much data as they could from these bodies.
20:55
Speaker 3: Well, isn't it true that we have been told at
20:59
Speaker 3: the get go, Cheryl, that Abby was dressed Libby was.
21:05
Speaker 5: Not some variation of that. Yes, I've heard different type rumors,
21:08
Speaker 5: but yes, that's what we've been told.
21:10
Speaker 2: Rumors gossip innuendo.
21:14
Speaker 3: Now could damage the trial based on what an ex
21:19
Speaker 3: girlfriend that claims to recognize the defendant's voice saying down
21:24
Speaker 3: the hill played on a loop.
21:26
Speaker 2: Let's talk about the evidence that.
21:27
Speaker 3: We do know to Susan Hendrix, Barbara McDonald and Cheryl McCollum.
21:33
Speaker 3: What events do we know that connects the defendant who
21:38
Speaker 3: is headed.
21:38
Speaker 2: For trial right now.
21:42
Speaker 3: Number One, his admission behind bars while on the phone,
21:47
Speaker 3: all of those calls are being recorded to family members
21:51
Speaker 3: claiming he did it. Number two, the bullet from his gun,
21:57
Speaker 3: based on hard ballistics forensics found at the scene between
22:02
Speaker 3: the bodies, matched back to his gun still in his
22:05
Speaker 3: possession at his home.
22:09
Speaker 2: And also feline hair cat hair. Police actually exhumed a.
22:16
Speaker 3: Family cat from the defendant Allen's yard to match up
22:21
Speaker 3: to cat hair found on one of the victims, a
22:25
Speaker 3: victim that we don't believe has ever been in the
22:29
Speaker 3: defendant's home. Now, Cheryl, I find those three pieces of
22:34
Speaker 3: evidence to be damning.
22:37
Speaker 2: What more can you add?
22:38
Speaker 5: I mean again, the fact that he told a law
22:42
Speaker 5: enforcement person that he was there that day, that to
22:45
Speaker 5: me is so critical. The fact that perhaps his call.
22:48
Speaker 2: You mean at the trestle bridge, Yes, at.
22:50
Speaker 5: The bridge he places him.
22:52
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just like Scott Peterson going, yeah, I
22:54
Speaker 3: always had the marina the.
22:56
Speaker 2: Day Lacey went missing.
22:57
Speaker 11: Exactly at the body of water.
23:00
Speaker 3: I was fishing, but that was just a big kowinky dink.
23:04
Speaker 3: And what's a grown man with a family doing out
23:08
Speaker 3: in the middle of the day when he should be
23:09
Speaker 3: working by himself, walking on a trestle bridge at the
23:14
Speaker 3: same time the girls go missing and or murdered.
23:17
Speaker 5: And they didn't seek him out. He sought them out
23:20
Speaker 5: to tell them, Hey, I was here. If you need anything,
23:24
Speaker 5: I can help you. Yeah. Absolutely, And I think there's
23:28
Speaker 5: gonna be some other things that come out, you know you.
23:32
Speaker 5: They have not told us everything. I keep harping on that,
23:36
Speaker 5: and there's a reason they're.
23:37
Speaker 11: Playing this so close to the desk, and nor should
23:40
Speaker 11: they should they Barbara McDonald joining US Court to V
23:44
Speaker 11: documentary producer and producer of Cheln's Down the Hill podcast.
23:50
Speaker 3: Barbara, what evidence, in your mind is the strongest evidence
23:56
Speaker 3: linking the defendant Alan to the murders of Libby and Apple.
24:00
Speaker 4: I think his own admission in the beginning that he
24:03
Speaker 4: was out there, that he was dressed similarly to the
24:06
Speaker 4: man that's Libby captured on the video, and that the
24:10
Speaker 4: witness statements, while they're a little bit all over the place,
24:14
Speaker 4: there is a lot of similarity in what the witnesses said,
24:18
Speaker 4: and they seem to have seen a man dressed like
24:21
Speaker 4: him around the time he says he was there, so
24:24
Speaker 4: that all seems to line up.
24:26
Speaker 3: So the fact that he places himself at the same
24:28
Speaker 3: wearing the same kind of clothes as the guy pictured
24:32
Speaker 3: and the girl's cell phone. To you, Susan Hendricks, what
24:36
Speaker 3: do you believe is the strongest evidence linking Allan to
24:40
Speaker 3: the murdyers.
24:40
Speaker 9: I believe it is the unspent bullet, But as you know, Nancy,
24:44
Speaker 9: it could be the battle of the experts when they
24:46
Speaker 9: get on the stand. I've heard from some experts that
24:49
Speaker 9: it yes, is like a fingerprint, from others, I'm sure
24:52
Speaker 9: they will dispute that. To me, what stand out are
24:54
Speaker 9: those jailhouse calls that both the defense and the prosecution
24:58
Speaker 9: mentioned at a hearing this past June. And I always
25:02
Speaker 9: think back to Casey Anthony and those jailhouse calls. We
25:05
Speaker 9: know that the prisoners know that it is recorded, so
25:10
Speaker 9: it will be interesting to see exactly what was said
25:13
Speaker 9: and will it be played in court. To me, that's
25:15
Speaker 9: the most damning and of course, as Cheryl and Barber mentioned,
25:19
Speaker 9: being on the bridge side.
25:20
Speaker 3: What do you mean by jailhouse calls potentially being the
25:22
Speaker 3: most damning evidence.
25:23
Speaker 9: If the prosecution and the defense mentioned at that hearing
25:27
Speaker 9: in June that he did admit to doing this to
25:31
Speaker 9: killing Abby and Libby, and I believe it was on
25:33
Speaker 9: an iPad or a phone call, a device that was recorded.
25:37
Speaker 9: So will they play it in court. I'm sure they
25:39
Speaker 9: will as evidence that he confessed to his wife and
25:43
Speaker 9: his mother.
25:44
Speaker 3: I mean, just so to you, Matthew, Me and Gino
25:47
Speaker 3: joining US high profile lawyer, former prosecutor in Lawrence County
25:51
Speaker 3: and author of the Executioner's Toll, The Crimes arrest, Trials, appeals,
25:56
Speaker 3: last meals, and final Words and executions of forty six
26:00
Speaker 3: persons in the US. Matthew Man, Gina, thank you for
26:03
Speaker 3: being with us.
26:04
Speaker 2: Matthew.
26:05
Speaker 3: Why now, just as we're heading to trial, are all
26:09
Speaker 3: these wild theories and so called specials occurring that are
26:16
Speaker 3: spouting out evidence that either is not true or is
26:24
Speaker 3: very harmful to the state's case.
26:28
Speaker 12: Well, Nancy, obviously, this case has generated a great deal
26:32
Speaker 12: of publicity, and you know, people you know, want their
26:36
Speaker 12: opportunity for fifteen minutes of fame. They want, you know,
26:40
Speaker 12: people want to talk to them. There's gag orders, so
26:43
Speaker 12: we don't know a lot that's going on in court.
26:46
Speaker 12: And so you know, if you're going to generate any
26:49
Speaker 12: news about this case, it's going to come from people
26:53
Speaker 12: on the fringe. But what it does is is it
26:57
Speaker 12: contaminates you know, the jury pool. I mean, so you
27:00
Speaker 12: have you know, Carroll County is not a huge county. Uh,
27:03
Speaker 12: if you're going to try this case there and all
27:06
Speaker 12: this publicity is swirling around the community about uh, you
27:11
Speaker 12: know other offenders or other people involved or this salacious
27:16
Speaker 12: you know details.
27:18
Speaker 13: Of what happened.
27:19
Speaker 12: Uh, that that pool is going to be contaminating and
27:22
Speaker 12: you know this this case may need to be moved
27:25
Speaker 12: or another jury brought in because of you know this
27:31
Speaker 12: these rumors that are swirling through the community and across
27:34
Speaker 12: the country.
27:35
Speaker 3: To doctor Jury L cross In, a psychologist's former law
27:38
Speaker 3: enforcement now faculty at Saint Leo University, Doctor Jory, thank
27:43
Speaker 3: you for being with us. What is the the motivator
27:49
Speaker 3: for people to make up stories or publish stories that
27:55
Speaker 3: are really just sensationalists and they could actually damaged the trial.
28:02
Speaker 13: Yeah, we have this new dynamic social influencers and you know,
28:08
Speaker 13: people they had these roles on their facebooks, Twitter accounts
28:12
Speaker 13: and all this with followers. It was mentioned that confirmation bias,
28:17
Speaker 13: and that's you know basically what you see when I
28:21
Speaker 13: kind of related to that. You know, she had this
28:24
Speaker 13: concept and she discounts, and it's normal you discount things
28:28
Speaker 13: that don't support it. You just look at things that
28:31
Speaker 13: support it. And in the case of the ex girlfriend,
28:35
Speaker 13: where she was attacked and had you know, violent interactions
28:38
Speaker 13: with him, you know, she just simply confirmed that and
28:41
Speaker 13: focused it into her concept of him being the perpetrator.
28:48
Speaker 13: One of the other things that we brought up early
28:50
Speaker 13: on was this possible decapitation and behaviorally speaking, you know,
28:57
Speaker 13: I always look at behavior and with the behavior there
29:01
Speaker 13: there's time elements, you know, and that all has to
29:06
Speaker 13: kind of factor in. And I remember when we discussed
29:09
Speaker 13: this case previously that there were time windows here, you know,
29:14
Speaker 13: like where the bodies were. They were kind of out
29:17
Speaker 13: in the open. It looked like they were probably attempting
29:21
Speaker 13: to be led into a more secluded area. So, you know,
29:26
Speaker 13: the thing about the decapitation, I find that it's really
29:31
Speaker 13: not probably reliable because of the time that would involve.
29:38
Speaker 13: And even when they use the term rage. You know,
29:41
Speaker 13: rage is a specific psychological level what we call a
29:46
Speaker 13: paranoid shift, you know, where that rage just overtakes and
29:51
Speaker 13: you get lost in a time. It appears this person had,
29:55
Speaker 13: you know, the cognitive ability to relate to time, even
29:59
Speaker 13: with the weapon where I mean he had a knife
30:01
Speaker 13: one down, but the firearm, you know, the firearm was
30:05
Speaker 13: meant more as a means of control of threat. And
30:09
Speaker 13: especially if he chambered around you know, to me, that
30:13
Speaker 13: would mean he already had around in the chamber and
30:15
Speaker 13: he wanted to clear it. Yeah. And fear and still
30:21
Speaker 13: that fear with that forty caliber. Yeah. So you know,
30:25
Speaker 13: all the factors down into this, like this time window
30:29
Speaker 13: that to me, it created a very disorganized type personality.
30:35
Speaker 3: Guys, I want to talk about the dissemination of evidence
30:41
Speaker 3: that has been leaked. Why why leaked evidence in this case,
30:47
Speaker 3: particularly this nature of evidence.
30:51
Speaker 2: Take a listen to Nicole parton Crime Online.
30:54
Speaker 14: Prosecutor in the Delphi murder case is Nick mcleland, and
30:57
Speaker 14: he listed twenty five reasons he believes Judge Francis Gull
31:01
Speaker 14: should hold Richard Allen's attorneys in contempt of court. Mcleland
31:05
Speaker 14: accuses Baldwin and Rozzie of violating a gag order during
31:09
Speaker 14: their time as Allen's counsel. Most of the violation came
31:13
Speaker 14: in connection to an evidence leak out of Baldwin's office.
31:16
Speaker 14: A friend and former colleague, Mitch Westerman, was at Baldwin's
31:20
Speaker 14: office last October when he saw crime scene photos on
31:24
Speaker 14: a conference room table. Once he is alone, Westerman takes
31:27
Speaker 14: photos and sends them to a friend, who releases them
31:30
Speaker 14: to social media. The leak led Baldwin and Rozzie, leaving
31:34
Speaker 14: the defense team for Richard Allen. Mitch Westerman admitted he
31:38
Speaker 14: took the photos without Baldwin or anyone else knowing, and
31:41
Speaker 14: sent them out himself. Westerman now faces charges to Cheryl McCollum,
31:47
Speaker 14: what were the photos of.
31:49
Speaker 5: They were straight up crime scene photographs of these two
31:53
Speaker 5: young victims and Nancy.
31:56
Speaker 2: That was one leak.
31:57
Speaker 5: Another leak was this odinism deal where every single expert
32:02
Speaker 5: in the country just about was like odinism, I've never
32:05
Speaker 5: heard of it.
32:06
Speaker 4: So to me, how do you.
32:08
Speaker 5: Introduce reasonable doubt and still not even be a trial.
32:12
Speaker 5: They've done it. They've done it here successfully a few
32:15
Speaker 5: times now. You've got a whole jury pool expecting a beheaden.
32:20
Speaker 5: You've got a whole jury pool expecting odinism. You've got
32:23
Speaker 5: a whole jury pool that knows Ron Logan, Richard Allen.
32:26
Speaker 3: Wait a minute, Wait a minute, Wait a minute. Let's
32:28
Speaker 3: be clear what odinism is. Odinism, and I've spoken to
32:32
Speaker 3: an expert on Odinism is the worship of.
32:39
Speaker 2: Gods demi gods such as you know, thor.
32:45
Speaker 3: The guy in the action movies. Odin is one of them.
32:52
Speaker 3: People still worship Odin apparently, So somehow someone was trying
32:58
Speaker 3: to link the murders of Abbey and Libby to the
33:02
Speaker 3: worship of Odin.
33:05
Speaker 2: Okay, I don't know.
33:06
Speaker 3: How that panned out, not very well, but it's very
33:10
Speaker 3: disturbing Cheryl McCollum that someone would take pictures of pictures
33:16
Speaker 3: of little girls whose throats have been slashed and disseminate
33:20
Speaker 3: them on social media.
33:23
Speaker 5: Nancy, this family has been revictimized over and over and over.
33:29
Speaker 5: It's like every week they wake up and there's something else.
33:32
Speaker 5: Oh we're going to have a trial. Nope, we're not
33:33
Speaker 5: going to do it today. Oh he's going to be moved, No,
33:36
Speaker 5: he's not going to be moved to a different place today.
33:39
Speaker 5: Oh now there's odinism. Oh now there's a beheading. I
33:42
Speaker 5: mean they wake up and get slapped in the face
33:45
Speaker 5: with this stuff. They didn't participate in the so called documentary.
33:49
Speaker 5: They are just again waiting for the next shoe to drop,
33:53
Speaker 5: in the next shoe to drop instill no justice for
33:56
Speaker 5: these little girls too.
33:57
Speaker 3: Susan Hendrix's journalist and author of Down the Hill, might
34:00
Speaker 3: have sent into the double murder in Delphi even if
34:04
Speaker 3: a defense team itself had not leaked photos. The fact
34:08
Speaker 3: that they are of these little girls, potentially naked and
34:12
Speaker 3: savaged bloody, leaving them out for civilians not on the
34:21
Speaker 3: trial team to see is negligent.
34:24
Speaker 9: Yeah, exactly. I remember Kelsey telling me that her grandfather, Mike,
34:30
Speaker 9: was the one that first saw of these bodies, and
34:33
Speaker 9: she said, I never asked how she died, and part
34:37
Speaker 9: of me doesn't want to know. So they're protecting themselves
34:40
Speaker 9: mentally of course, going through this. And this was in
34:42
Speaker 9: twenty nineteen when she said that to me. But there
34:45
Speaker 9: is a hearing on March eighteenth, contempt hearing, and we'll see.
34:50
Speaker 9: I don't know why those photos were leaked. It's just horrific.
34:53
Speaker 9: I remember Becky posting on Facebook, these are the pictures
34:57
Speaker 9: that we should be looking at of the girls. It's
35:01
Speaker 9: not our job to solve this. That's for the court room,
35:04
Speaker 9: and that's where they should be shown to the jurors,
35:07
Speaker 9: not out there on the internet for everyone to see.
35:09
Speaker 9: And there's even more that maybe they were done.
35:11
Speaker 3: And another thing to Barbara McDonald, a star of Down
35:14
Speaker 3: the Heel podcast, Barbara, what kind of ghuel would they?
35:20
Speaker 2: Oh?
35:21
Speaker 3: Let me take pictures of these two dead little girls
35:23
Speaker 3: and post them?
35:24
Speaker 4: It makes absolutely no sense. I don't understand how. I
35:29
Speaker 4: don't understand how they can be just displayed in a
35:31
Speaker 4: conference room that you're allowing people who are not actively
35:35
Speaker 4: working on that case to have access to that room.
35:38
Speaker 4: I don't know how those anybody takes pictures of that
35:42
Speaker 4: and then thinks, oh yeah, let me share this. How
35:45
Speaker 4: that is supposed to be helpful to the case. I
35:48
Speaker 4: don't see it at all. It's disturbing and disgusting.
35:53
Speaker 1: Quite honestly, Crime Stories with Nancy Grease to just Scott Morgan,
36:12
Speaker 1: let's just walk for a short distance down this.
36:18
Speaker 3: Flight of fancy, that this path to nowhere It's a
36:22
Speaker 3: pig path. You know what a pig path is, right,
36:25
Speaker 3: You know how pigs won't run straight, they run all
36:29
Speaker 3: different ways. That's a pig path and it leads to nowhere.
36:34
Speaker 3: Claims that someone other than Richard Allen is a killer.
36:39
Speaker 3: Let's follow that through to its logical conclusion, Joe Scott.
36:43
Speaker 3: That would mean that someone had to go to Richard
36:48
Speaker 3: Allen's home, put a bullet in his gun, cycle it
36:53
Speaker 3: through without him or his wife or daughter ever knowing
36:55
Speaker 3: anybody was there, getting the bullet out, taking it to
37:02
Speaker 3: the crime saying and dropping it between the two dead bodies,
37:05
Speaker 3: or some other way of stealthily obtaining a bullet out
37:09
Speaker 3: of his gun, replacing the gun, and then allowing the
37:15
Speaker 3: bullet to be found there, basically framing him.
37:18
Speaker 2: You think somebody's framing.
37:21
Speaker 3: Richard Alan, the guy that confessed to his wife wooh,
37:25
Speaker 3: crying and s nodding on the phone to his mommy. Really,
37:30
Speaker 3: and you'd have to imagine that someone then also planted
37:35
Speaker 3: the cat hair. The cat's dead in the backyard, buried.
37:40
Speaker 2: They had to exhume the cat, Joe Scott.
37:43
Speaker 3: So to believe someone else framed Richard Allan, what did
37:48
Speaker 3: they go pluck the hair from the cat.
37:50
Speaker 2: Did they dig the cat up? I mean, this is insane.
37:54
Speaker 3: It doesn't make any sense to claim anyone other than
37:58
Speaker 3: Richard Allan did this, or someone in this home that
38:01
Speaker 3: leaves his wife and his daughter.
38:02
Speaker 2: I don't see it. I see Richard Allen.
38:05
Speaker 10: You got all all manner of of you know, goblins
38:09
Speaker 10: that are inhabiting this area. Who I'd never heard of Delphi,
38:15
Speaker 10: Indiana before this occurred. Of course I know it well
38:18
Speaker 10: now I'm familiar with the families after all these years.
38:21
Speaker 10: And I got to tell you, you know the fact that
38:23
Speaker 10: you would have all of these players come in to
38:29
Speaker 10: enter on and off the stage of this this tragedy,
38:34
Speaker 10: and that it would be this idea that he's being
38:38
Speaker 10: framed somehow, you know, with this this whole Odinism thing.
38:42
Speaker 10: And now you've got this you know girlfriend, former girlfriend
38:46
Speaker 10: that's saying that the other person you know who's conveniently
38:49
Speaker 10: dead now is is the person that did this. It
38:54
Speaker 10: really gives you pause to think about it. And and
38:57
Speaker 10: let me just kind of plainly state this right now
39:00
Speaker 10: while I have your attention. Whoever released that photo, whoever
39:04
Speaker 10: sent that out? I still and I know that their
39:07
Speaker 10: charges penning. I do not understand at this point in
39:10
Speaker 10: time why bench warrant was not issued for that individual
39:14
Speaker 10: and their ass was put in jail as a result
39:18
Speaker 10: of this, Because this can be something that is so
39:21
Speaker 10: incredibly damaging. The stuff that Mac and I have done
39:26
Speaker 10: over the course of our career. We enter on the
39:28
Speaker 10: other side of a veil, if you will, and no
39:31
Speaker 10: one is supposed to penetrate that because it screws up
39:34
Speaker 10: the continuity of the case. Everything that we do is protected.
39:39
Speaker 10: That's why we don't share it with other people. And
39:42
Speaker 10: if this person who has put this photo out there
39:47
Speaker 10: has ruined this case, we'll be into them because it
39:50
Speaker 10: could be that damaging. And I don't know what else
39:53
Speaker 10: may have happened along the way, because it's taken so
39:55
Speaker 10: long for this case to move forward.
39:57
Speaker 5: Nanthy, can I please jump in?
39:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, I please to, and then I'll circle back.
40:01
Speaker 2: Go ahead.
40:02
Speaker 5: We started working together when I was in my early twenties.
40:05
Speaker 5: You would sometimes, I remember, spread the case file out
40:11
Speaker 5: and you would pray over each file. Never in the
40:16
Speaker 5: entire multiple decades that we worked together, did you ever
40:20
Speaker 5: share a case file with me, photographs with me, statements
40:24
Speaker 5: with me, that I was not directly involved in. You
40:27
Speaker 5: worked one hundreds of cases, not once for show, not
40:33
Speaker 5: once for bragging, not once for you ain't gonna believe this?
40:36
Speaker 5: Did you show me photographs? Never so again for somebody
40:41
Speaker 5: to leave those out when just a regular joe off
40:45
Speaker 5: the street comes in, It's almost hard for me to
40:48
Speaker 5: believe that was no purpose. And again I'm going to
40:51
Speaker 5: go back to how do you introduce reasonable doubt? How
40:54
Speaker 5: do you pain a case? How do you throw it
40:56
Speaker 5: off track? They've done it beautifully, photograph after league. Odinism
41:01
Speaker 5: is all of a sudden. There you got ron Logan
41:04
Speaker 5: coming back from the grave. You got Richard Allen, you
41:06
Speaker 5: got Kegan Kin. They're just throwing every little bit of
41:11
Speaker 5: mud they can on the wall to see what's gonna.
41:13
Speaker 3: Do you know, Cheryl speaking in those files, I remember distinkly.
41:17
Speaker 3: I don't know if you've ever seen flight attendants or
41:19
Speaker 3: pilots at the airport. They'll be going along with a
41:22
Speaker 3: little pull cart thing where their suitcases on. There.
41:28
Speaker 2: I would stack up in.
41:30
Speaker 3: US mail buckets, those big white buckets, all the evidence.
41:36
Speaker 3: At the end of every day of a trial, there
41:38
Speaker 3: would be nothing left in the courtroom on the table.
41:41
Speaker 2: Nothing. I'd stack it up and take it to.
41:45
Speaker 3: My car, put it in my car myself, put it
41:49
Speaker 3: in my trunk, take it home with me, and bring
41:53
Speaker 3: it inside.
41:55
Speaker 2: Every trial there.
41:56
Speaker 3: Would not be a sintilla of evidence for anybody to
42:01
Speaker 3: look at or see or try to decipher, ever, much
42:06
Speaker 3: less pictures of the dead girls just laid out on
42:12
Speaker 3: a conference table for any Tom, Dick and Harry to
42:15
Speaker 3: come in in Ogel.
42:17
Speaker 2: It's just.
42:19
Speaker 12: Wrong.
42:21
Speaker 3: But that said, you're right, Cheryl McCollum, I expect at trial,
42:27
Speaker 3: Matthew Mangino, you're the high profile lawyer for everyone of
42:32
Speaker 3: the name Cheryl just named out, and more anybody police
42:38
Speaker 3: looked at during the investigation as a potential POI person
42:43
Speaker 3: of interest, they're going to be brought in in front
42:46
Speaker 3: of the jury that many investigation to say they did it,
42:52
Speaker 3: not him. That's going to happen. So the state darn
42:56
Speaker 3: well better be ready for it. In they're opening state,
43:00
Speaker 3: they need to tell the jury, well, you investigated.
43:02
Speaker 2: This guy that was wrong. It wasn't him. We rolled
43:06
Speaker 2: him out.
43:07
Speaker 3: This guy, this guy, this guy, this guy. You've got
43:10
Speaker 3: to tell the jury up front. You've got to shoot
43:13
Speaker 3: them down before they even bring it up.
43:16
Speaker 12: Yeah, and I agree with you, Nancy, And you know
43:18
Speaker 12: that's that makes the case more difficult and extends the
43:23
Speaker 12: case for the prosecution. But they have to beat the
43:26
Speaker 12: defense to those issues. They have to bring those people in,
43:32
Speaker 12: talk about what the investigation entailed, what the who they
43:37
Speaker 12: looked at, why they moved away from that person as
43:40
Speaker 12: a suspect. They have to prove not only that Allen
43:45
Speaker 12: did this, but these other people didn't. It adds to
43:49
Speaker 12: their responsibility because a jury is going to expect to
43:52
Speaker 12: hear that, and they want to beat the defense to
43:55
Speaker 12: the punch on that issue.
43:57
Speaker 2: Yeah.
43:57
Speaker 3: To you, Barbara McDonald down the Hill podcast through h
44:02
Speaker 3: oln What do you make of what's happening now? And
44:05
Speaker 3: what is your prediction? Are we really going to trial
44:08
Speaker 3: on that trial day? Is there any chance for a play?
44:12
Speaker 4: I am not much of a gambler, but I wouldn't
44:15
Speaker 4: put money on a plea and I'm not so sure
44:19
Speaker 4: we're going to see a trial anytime soon. It is
44:23
Speaker 4: the legal wrangling. It is all about these all of
44:27
Speaker 4: these attorneys.
44:28
Speaker 7: Now.
44:28
Speaker 4: The prosecutor is fighting with the defense, the defense is
44:31
Speaker 4: fighting with the judge.
44:34
Speaker 2: I hope, well that happens in every trial.
44:37
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know this is an unusual case. It
44:41
Speaker 4: already went to the Supreme Court before we even had
44:43
Speaker 4: a verdict in this case, and the Supreme Court weighed
44:46
Speaker 4: in in a matter of hours, which was a very
44:49
Speaker 4: unusual step for them. The record needs to be established
44:55
Speaker 4: in this case. It needs to be maintained more clearly.
44:58
Speaker 4: It is a mess at the moment, and you know
45:03
Speaker 4: we need to get to a jam.
45:05
Speaker 3: I will tell you, Barbara that show of every murder
45:07
Speaker 3: case I've ever tried, it's always a legal mess. And
45:10
Speaker 3: when you go to the state supremes or the state
45:13
Speaker 3: appellate court, it's usually for an emergency ruling that is
45:17
Speaker 3: going to affect the discovery or the trial itself. They
45:21
Speaker 3: usually turn those around pretty quickly. As to all other
45:24
Speaker 3: appeals forget about anything being nobody's in a hurry, But
45:30
Speaker 3: on emergency appeals such as that, you can kind of
45:33
Speaker 3: get a quick turnaround few and far between. Susan Hendrix,
45:38
Speaker 3: what do you think, first of all, Kim Dumblap, Hold
45:40
Speaker 3: on Kim Dumblap, is this is a death penalty state.
45:48
Speaker 3: Any chance of the death penalty?
45:49
Speaker 7: I haven't heard, you know, I can't say one w
45:52
Speaker 7: or or the other. I haven't heard yet. Nobody's brought that
45:55
Speaker 7: up in court. Frowlings, Well, we would know.
45:58
Speaker 3: You have to announce death penalty at the get go.
46:01
Speaker 3: What about it, Cheryl McCollum, any chance of death penal
46:04
Speaker 3: to hear? I say no, it would have been announced
46:05
Speaker 3: a long time ago.
46:07
Speaker 5: I think it would have been announced a long time ago,
46:08
Speaker 5: and I've heard nothing about it.
46:10
Speaker 3: I agree, Okay, this is what we know. The case
46:14
Speaker 3: set to go forward. Susan Hendrix, What do you make
46:17
Speaker 3: of what we've heard today?
46:18
Speaker 9: Well, I think through all of this mess and everything
46:21
Speaker 9: that's gone on in Becky's text this morning saying, Wow,
46:25
Speaker 9: the craziness keeps coming. I believe they were revictimized going
46:30
Speaker 9: through this, but they have their eye on the trial.
46:33
Speaker 9: They want justice. And why would anyone want to imply
46:38
Speaker 9: that Richard Allen did it? If he didn't, that means
46:40
Speaker 9: that the person or person would still be out there.
46:42
Speaker 9: I do have faith in the system, and I believe
46:45
Speaker 9: they can find jerors who will look at the evidence.
46:48
Speaker 9: And I don't think we know all of the evidence,
46:50
Speaker 9: even within the leaks that we have seen and heard of.
46:54
Speaker 9: I have faith in it.
46:55
Speaker 2: I agree with you, Susan Hendricks.
46:57
Speaker 3: We have not heard even a tiny portion of the evidence,
47:00
Speaker 3: and why should we, Cheryl McCollum to you, the fact that.
47:04
Speaker 2: These girls.
47:07
Speaker 3: Had to be buried with scarves wrapped around their necks
47:11
Speaker 3: to cover up wounds.
47:14
Speaker 2: Is so much to take in, Cheryl.
47:17
Speaker 5: You know, Nancy, you're the first person that sent me there,
47:21
Speaker 5: and when I got to Delphi, I had a very
47:23
Speaker 5: similar experience that Susan and Barbara did, and that as
47:27
Speaker 5: soon as you get into town, I mean, it's picturesque,
47:30
Speaker 5: it's beautiful, everybody's super friendly, but there's no way you
47:34
Speaker 5: find that bridge if you're not from there. And so
47:37
Speaker 5: to me, the first thing that's stuck is that he
47:40
Speaker 5: had to be from right there. There was no doubt
47:44
Speaker 5: in my mind once I walked to the bridge, same thing.
47:47
Speaker 5: And Susan and Barbara and you, we have all talked
47:52
Speaker 5: the significance of the location and how it happened is paramount.
47:57
Speaker 5: And I will just leave you with this. They've got
48:00
Speaker 5: got more that they haven't told us. They've got more
48:03
Speaker 5: that's going.
48:03
Speaker 4: To come out.
48:05
Speaker 5: This is for trial, this is not for entertainment.
48:10
Speaker 3: It could not have been put any better than Cheryl
48:12
Speaker 3: would call and just put it.
48:13
Speaker 2: We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye friend,