Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #599 Finding Baby Bliss: A Conversation With Jo Ryan

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#599 Finding Baby Bliss: A Conversation With Jo Ryan · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast.
0:05
Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
0:09
Speaker 2: wants answers.
0:10
Speaker 1: Now.
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Speaker 3: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson. Welcome to the Happy
0:13
Speaker 3: Families Podcast. Today a conversation on a topic that seems
0:16
Speaker 3: to generate endless chatter, endless clicks, and endless questions and controversy. However,
0:24
Speaker 3: I'm speaking to somebody who knows more about it than
0:26
Speaker 3: just about anybody in Australia, if not on the planet.
0:29
Speaker 3: Joe Ryan was a registered nurse for over twenty years,
0:33
Speaker 3: with much of that time spent working in pediatric hospitals.
0:37
Speaker 2: She's also worked as full.
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Speaker 3: Time nanny for many years, both in Australia and overseas.
0:41
Speaker 3: And she knows babies. She knows kids going to sleep,
0:45
Speaker 3: she knows about the stress and anxiety that's part of
0:48
Speaker 3: early parenting. In twenty seventeen, Joe completed twelve months of
0:51
Speaker 3: infant mental health through Melbourne University in the Royal Children's
0:54
Speaker 3: Hospital in Melbourne. And Joe is the founder of Baby Bliss.
0:59
Speaker 3: So we're going to talk sleep, babies, sleep training. I
1:03
Speaker 3: don't know if I should have said those two woods
1:05
Speaker 3: side by side, but I did. And a whole lot
1:07
Speaker 3: of other stuff about how we help kids get to bed,
1:10
Speaker 3: how we help parents get enough sleep, especially when it's
1:12
Speaker 3: two o'clock in the morning, the baby's crying and no
1:14
Speaker 3: one knows what to do. Joe Ryan, so good to
1:17
Speaker 3: have you on the Happy Families podcast. Thanks for joining me.
1:19
Speaker 1: Thank you. Nice to see you.
1:21
Speaker 3: Hey, Joe, let's start with the straight up in your
1:24
Speaker 3: face question that I know makes people cringe, but we've
1:27
Speaker 3: got to get.
1:28
Speaker 2: This out straight away.
1:29
Speaker 3: What is baby sleep training?
1:32
Speaker 1: Well, look, I think baby sleep training is a term
1:35
Speaker 1: that's bandied around and used for a lot of different things.
1:38
Speaker 1: I mean, in my mind, sleep training is where you
1:44
Speaker 1: sort of override babies. You're trying to override a baby's
1:47
Speaker 1: natural kind of I guess sleep needs or sleepabilities, and
1:53
Speaker 1: you kind of want to train them to fit into
1:55
Speaker 1: a bit of a cookie cutter or you know, some
1:58
Speaker 1: a pattern or a routine in that suits sort of
2:02
Speaker 1: what we think babies should be doing. But you know,
2:05
Speaker 1: people do apply that term to just generally, you know,
2:09
Speaker 1: a lot of just other stuff. But I think that's
2:11
Speaker 1: kind of what in it. In my mind, I would
2:13
Speaker 1: say sleep training.
2:14
Speaker 3: Was okay, So we won't name names here. It's really
2:16
Speaker 3: important that we're sensitive and appropriate in our professionalism. But
2:21
Speaker 3: what I will say is there are a handful of
2:22
Speaker 3: people globally who have made significant money advocating for baby
2:27
Speaker 3: sleep training. They've written books, creative programs about why you
2:30
Speaker 3: need to make sure that the kids are on this
2:32
Speaker 3: particular routine and following this particular pattern. I was just
2:35
Speaker 3: approached by somebody a couple of weeks ago who was
2:37
Speaker 3: a huge advocate of baby sleep training, who wanted to
2:39
Speaker 3: be on the podcast, And it doesn't fit with my approach,
2:42
Speaker 3: my philosophy, what I think is best for babies, or
2:45
Speaker 3: best for parents for that matter, in the main. I
2:48
Speaker 3: know there may be some special circumstances where it's an
2:50
Speaker 3: option that has to be considered. But can you tell
2:53
Speaker 3: me why do so many people advocate for this structured
2:56
Speaker 3: approach to baby must sleep? When I say baby.
2:58
Speaker 1: Must sleep, I think that you know, as adults, we
3:03
Speaker 1: want the baby to fit into our world, and you know,
3:05
Speaker 1: we kind of you know, I mean, we have a
3:09
Speaker 1: lot of ex we have a lot of pressures on
3:11
Speaker 1: particularly mothers these days, you know, of wanting to you know,
3:14
Speaker 1: either go back to work, they need to go, they
3:16
Speaker 1: need to go back to work, so they feel that
3:19
Speaker 1: they need the baby to be sleeping well in order
3:21
Speaker 1: for them to be able to function properly. There's a
3:23
Speaker 1: whole lot of external pressures on it. And then there's
3:26
Speaker 1: also that kind of you know, oh, well, their baby's
3:29
Speaker 1: sleeping through the night, so surely mine must be able
3:32
Speaker 1: to do that too, So maybe unreal expectation.
3:36
Speaker 3: When I think about baby sleep training, I'm reminded, and
3:39
Speaker 3: this is a this is an extreme example, I know,
3:41
Speaker 3: but I'm reminded of a parent who basically told me
3:44
Speaker 3: I brought my child home and I knew that at
3:46
Speaker 3: the end of week one that we needed to sleep
3:48
Speaker 3: train or it was not going to work. And so
3:50
Speaker 3: they literally just let their baby vomit, scream, whatever, And
3:54
Speaker 3: when in the next day, after the baby had cried
3:56
Speaker 3: all night and within two or three nights, she said
3:58
Speaker 3: it never happened again. The baby just went to sleep.
4:00
Speaker 3: The sleep training worked. I know that that's an extreme example,
4:03
Speaker 3: but when you hear that, what's your reaction?
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Speaker 1: Oh, it makes me really really sad, because babies need,
4:11
Speaker 1: they need to be held when they're upset, and they
4:13
Speaker 1: need to have attention, They need someone to comfort them
4:16
Speaker 1: and support them. You know, babies cry, that's what we know.
4:19
Speaker 1: That's their way of communicating, you know, probably one of
4:22
Speaker 1: their only ways of communicating when they're tiny. You know
4:25
Speaker 1: that they want something or there's something that they need,
4:28
Speaker 1: and so to kind of ignore that when they're young, well,
4:31
Speaker 1: at any age, really is just it. It makes me
4:34
Speaker 1: very sad, I think, Joe.
4:36
Speaker 3: When we consider the idea of baby sleep training, a
4:39
Speaker 3: lot of people will use the term crying it out
4:41
Speaker 3: and similar words, similar names for those kinds of methods.
4:46
Speaker 3: Are there any differences for parents who are not familiar
4:48
Speaker 3: with this or who are trying to work out what
4:49
Speaker 3: they're supposed to do? Is there a difference between sleep
4:52
Speaker 3: training and crying it out or is it essentially just
4:54
Speaker 3: a different take on the same concept.
4:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's probably the same thing. I mean,
4:59
Speaker 1: cry it out or can crying is sort of what
5:03
Speaker 1: I would view as kind of the sleep training that
5:07
Speaker 1: has been around for a long time now, that people
5:09
Speaker 1: basically train their children to fall asleep, so they let
5:13
Speaker 1: them cry for extended periods of time until basically the
5:17
Speaker 1: child sort of cries themselves to sleep. That's the I
5:20
Speaker 1: think it's essentially the same kind of thing.
5:22
Speaker 3: In cultures other than ours, do we see this kind
5:25
Speaker 3: of sleep training, not.
5:27
Speaker 1: That I'm aware of. I think, you know, different cultures
5:30
Speaker 1: have obviously different ideas, you know, tribal cultures, you know,
5:35
Speaker 1: but they have more than often more than one caregiver.
5:38
Speaker 1: More than one, you know, the obviously is the mother.
5:40
Speaker 1: But in sort of tribal cultures or cultures where many
5:44
Speaker 1: generations of one family might live in the same house,
5:49
Speaker 1: you know, there's more than one caregiver. So I think,
5:52
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't all fall to the mother or
5:55
Speaker 1: the primary caregiver to provide that sort of support for
6:00
Speaker 1: the child twenty four to seven, you know. So I
6:03
Speaker 1: think that in a Western culture and the way that
6:07
Speaker 1: our culture is, with women being much more isolated or
6:10
Speaker 1: families being much more isolated from extended families, and women
6:14
Speaker 1: having this pressure to you know, to go back to
6:18
Speaker 1: work for whatever reason, you know that these kind of
6:21
Speaker 1: ideas of getting your baby sleep trained early so that
6:25
Speaker 1: they fit into that. You know. That's why it's sort
6:28
Speaker 1: of growing and become a big thing.
6:31
Speaker 3: We need to talk about solutions, which we will soon,
6:33
Speaker 3: But first one more question on this sleep training cry
6:36
Speaker 3: out controlled crying concept. If you were to list your
6:39
Speaker 3: primary concerns Joe, and I know you've done this in
6:42
Speaker 3: your book Baby Bliss, but for the sake of people
6:44
Speaker 3: who are not familiar with your book and not familiar
6:46
Speaker 3: with your work, what would you highlight as your maybe
6:49
Speaker 3: your top three concerns with a sleep training approach to
6:54
Speaker 3: baby nap time.
6:56
Speaker 1: Well, the first one is attachment. You know, like babies
6:58
Speaker 1: need to attack and they need to have a secure
7:01
Speaker 1: attachment to their primary caregiver. And that happens very early
7:06
Speaker 1: when babies are very very young, and if babies are
7:09
Speaker 1: not intended to when they need someone to cry, that
7:12
Speaker 1: attachment can become insecure because they feel like that there
7:16
Speaker 1: isn't that primary person there to help them. So that's
7:18
Speaker 1: a big thing. And attachment affects you for the rest
7:22
Speaker 1: of your life, like you know, so you know, that
7:25
Speaker 1: would be one of my main concerns. Also just understanding
7:30
Speaker 1: you know, it's putting a lot of pressure on babies
7:32
Speaker 1: and on parents to kind of make this baby do
7:36
Speaker 1: something that in fact, their brain development is their brains
7:39
Speaker 1: are not able to actually do it, you know, So
7:43
Speaker 1: there's a lot of pressure and so it creates you know,
7:46
Speaker 1: of course it does work for some babies because otherwise
7:50
Speaker 1: people wouldn't keep doing it, But for a lot of
7:52
Speaker 1: babies it doesn't, and it goes on and on, and
7:54
Speaker 1: you have this protracted kind of period of crying and stress,
7:59
Speaker 1: and you know everyone's unhappy. So I feel like it
8:03
Speaker 1: puts a lot of pressure on the family unit and
8:05
Speaker 1: on the child to do something they're not ready to do.
8:08
Speaker 3: It's two am. The baby's beat awake three maybe four
8:12
Speaker 3: times already. Mum is sleep deprived, exhausted, feels like she's
8:16
Speaker 3: going to cry if she can muster the energy for
8:19
Speaker 3: that because she's just so tired. What does she do
8:23
Speaker 3: after the break? Joe Ryan, the founder of baby Bliss,
8:26
Speaker 3: will give us some solutions to help any time for
8:30
Speaker 3: exhausted over world mums with babies at once sleep. Starting
8:38
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8:40
Speaker 3: a little worrying. The Starting School Activity Book is a
8:43
Speaker 3: printable workbook that will help prepare your little one for
8:46
Speaker 3: the first thrilling school days and give you tips on
8:49
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8:52
Speaker 3: they're going to experience. Perfect for kindie, preschool or big school,
8:56
Speaker 3: and absolutely free online at Happy families dot com dot
8:59
Speaker 3: a you. It's The Happy Family's podcast, the podcast for
9:03
Speaker 3: the type or parent who just wants answers Now. Joe
9:05
Speaker 3: Ryan from Baby Bliss joins me for this conversation.
9:08
Speaker 2: Joe some years ago. I mean, Kylie and.
9:10
Speaker 3: I have six daughters, and it's been a number of
9:13
Speaker 3: years since we've had to deal with kids not sleeping
9:15
Speaker 3: through the night. So I guess the first piece of
9:17
Speaker 3: good news is they do grow out of it, like
9:20
Speaker 3: eventually our eight year old, she's slept all night now
9:22
Speaker 3: for a number of years, and we're doing Okay, you
9:24
Speaker 3: do get through it, but it's exhausting when you're going
9:27
Speaker 3: through it. I remember, before we met you, before we
9:29
Speaker 3: knew who you were, before we discovered your book, we
9:32
Speaker 3: had our first couple of kids, and Kylie and I
9:35
Speaker 3: both hated the concept of sleep training or controlled crying
9:38
Speaker 3: or crying it out, whatever you want to call it.
9:40
Speaker 3: But we were exhausted and we were lost, and we
9:44
Speaker 3: were afraid that we were going to yell at our
9:46
Speaker 3: baby or hurt our baby, or shake our baby, or
9:48
Speaker 3: do something that demanded that the baby go to sleep.
9:51
Speaker 3: And if we could just yell at her enough, she
9:52
Speaker 3: would understand that it was time to go to sleep.
9:55
Speaker 3: And I remember we got to a point where Kylie said,
9:57
Speaker 3: I don't want to do this thing, but I just
9:59
Speaker 3: we need to do it. And we put the baby down,
10:01
Speaker 3: and we were in the room next door as she
10:03
Speaker 3: screamed and screamed and screamed and screamed and screamed and
10:05
Speaker 3: screamed until I got so bad.
10:08
Speaker 2: That Kylie left the house.
10:09
Speaker 3: She went and sat in the car out on the
10:11
Speaker 3: street as the baby screaming, and she said, even in
10:13
Speaker 3: the car with the windows up, she could still faintly
10:16
Speaker 3: hear the baby crying.
10:18
Speaker 2: And it tore my heart out. It absolutely crushed Kylie.
10:22
Speaker 2: And yet this is the kind of I know that.
10:26
Speaker 3: Again, it's not precisely what some of the sleep training
10:29
Speaker 3: books and manuals will tell you to do, but essentially
10:32
Speaker 3: there's variations of different ways of letting the baby cry,
10:35
Speaker 3: going back, letting the baby cry, going back with extending
10:37
Speaker 3: the time period, etc. Whatever it might be. You don't
10:40
Speaker 3: advocate for that, nor do I as a result of
10:42
Speaker 3: what I've learned from you. If I'm that desperate parent, though,
10:46
Speaker 3: if you could go back and talk to Kylie and
10:47
Speaker 3: I on that night, when it's now two o'clock and
10:50
Speaker 3: we are just shot.
10:53
Speaker 2: What do you tell a parent to do?
10:54
Speaker 3: How do they get through this challenging, exhausting time.
10:59
Speaker 1: Look at his absolutely incredibly challenging, exhausting and as you say,
11:03
Speaker 1: it does pass. But when you're in the crux of it,
11:06
Speaker 1: when you're in the reeds, you're just like, this is
11:07
Speaker 1: never going to end and this is the worst thing ever.
11:11
Speaker 1: Look I, you know, I there are definitely things you
11:15
Speaker 1: can do, and sometimes it's about just taking and we're
11:19
Speaker 1: talking young babies here, so it's taking the baby to
11:22
Speaker 1: bed with you. You know, maybe you know, just getting
11:25
Speaker 1: some sleep, and then when you feel like you're a
11:27
Speaker 1: bit more well rested, you can maybe put some more
11:32
Speaker 1: I guess sort of techniques in place, like sitting with
11:35
Speaker 1: the baby in its room, in the in the basinet
11:38
Speaker 1: and soothing the baby, you know, rocking them till they're
11:41
Speaker 1: sort of drowsy, then putting them down and patting them.
11:44
Speaker 1: You know, there are a whole lot of different things
11:46
Speaker 1: you can do. But when you're at that breaking point,
11:48
Speaker 1: I would say to parents, take that baby with you
11:51
Speaker 1: and sleep with it. You know, when they're tiny, sometimes
11:53
Speaker 1: that's all they want. And then you know, just so
11:56
Speaker 1: that you can recover rest, get some sleep, because in
12:00
Speaker 1: the middle of the night, when you're both up and
12:01
Speaker 1: you're both anxious, you know, there's often a bit of
12:04
Speaker 1: friction too between you know, parents, and no one's able
12:09
Speaker 1: to think clearly. And then you, when you feel a
12:11
Speaker 1: bit more rested, you have a little plan, you know,
12:13
Speaker 1: and you work out, like, what is going on with
12:16
Speaker 1: this child? Do they need more sleep in the day?
12:19
Speaker 1: You know, why are they not? You know, understanding what
12:22
Speaker 1: sleep needs are for a baby is really important because
12:26
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people don't. You know, you
12:27
Speaker 1: get turn home from a hospital with a new baby
12:29
Speaker 1: and you're not quite sure what to do with this thing,
12:32
Speaker 1: and no one tells you. You know, your baby won't
12:35
Speaker 1: actually fall asleep when they're tired, that's that's not what happens.
12:38
Speaker 1: You've got to put them to sleep. You've got to
12:40
Speaker 1: assist them in the early days so that they start
12:43
Speaker 1: to sleep, because if they're sleeping, they'll sleep better. If
12:47
Speaker 1: they're not sleeping, they sleep worse, you know. So there's
12:49
Speaker 1: a whole lot of stuff. So maybe do some reading
12:52
Speaker 1: when you feel like it, and understanding what your baby's
12:56
Speaker 1: sleep needs are and setting up really good sleep, hygiene,
12:59
Speaker 1: around times, rituals, you know, having sort of triggers or
13:04
Speaker 1: cues that your baby understands, like wrapping them, you know,
13:08
Speaker 1: winding them down, making sure they've had a good feed.
13:12
Speaker 1: But you know, I think there's a lot of information
13:16
Speaker 1: that parents don't get that they could to just help
13:19
Speaker 1: in those first couple of months where things are all
13:22
Speaker 1: a bit crazy.
13:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, so let me restate.
13:24
Speaker 3: First off, there's a lot to be said for just
13:28
Speaker 3: hopping into bed with the baby, or bring the baby
13:29
Speaker 3: into your bed. It's probably going to work better than
13:31
Speaker 3: you trying to squeeze into the cord or bascinet. And
13:33
Speaker 3: you can get those basonets now that attached to the
13:36
Speaker 3: side of your bed. They sort of fit in between
13:37
Speaker 3: your bed base and your mattress, so your baby is
13:40
Speaker 3: right there and you can do that thing that we
13:42
Speaker 3: call co sleeping, which again, historically, I mean until the
13:46
Speaker 3: last couple of hundred years, Joe, if I'm not mistaken,
13:48
Speaker 3: that's how families slept. They all slept in the same
13:52
Speaker 3: room together.
13:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and co sleeping. When babies are tiny, often
13:57
Speaker 1: they just want to be near near their parent, you know,
14:01
Speaker 1: their mum or their their primary caregivers, So you know,
14:04
Speaker 1: having the baby attached to the side of the bed
14:06
Speaker 1: is a really good Those co sleepers that sit on
14:09
Speaker 1: the side of the bed are really good, you know.
14:10
Speaker 1: And if you have to, you know, obviously you need
14:12
Speaker 1: to do it in a safe, safe way, and particularly
14:18
Speaker 1: when you're tired, you know often you know you need
14:20
Speaker 1: to make sure the baby is safe. But having the
14:22
Speaker 1: baby close to you, you know, is one good first thing,
14:28
Speaker 1: Like don't don't stop keep trying to put the baby
14:31
Speaker 1: down in their own bed or in their own room
14:33
Speaker 1: or away from you. Have them on you.
14:35
Speaker 3: If I could get close, if I could go back
14:37
Speaker 3: and have our six kids all over again, and I'm
14:39
Speaker 3: not sure that I'm just kidding, I love them, I'm
14:41
Speaker 3: creating I didn't really say that, But if I could
14:44
Speaker 3: go back and have those six kids again, one of
14:46
Speaker 3: the first things that I would do is make sure
14:47
Speaker 3: that we had the baby at the very least in
14:49
Speaker 3: the same room as us, And we did that with
14:52
Speaker 3: the last couple of kids. But ideally we'd actually have
14:55
Speaker 3: them as close to our bed or even on or
14:57
Speaker 3: in our bed, or in one of those co sleeping
14:59
Speaker 3: bassonette because having them close over time we've discovered just
15:03
Speaker 3: how valuable that is, and we just we didn't have
15:05
Speaker 3: the information early on, and gee, I wish we did.
15:08
Speaker 2: But hearing the other things that you've highlighted, the.
15:11
Speaker 3: Way that we can stay calm because emotions are contagious,
15:15
Speaker 3: the way we can pick up additional information, work out
15:17
Speaker 3: why the baby's not sleeping, learning to actually put the
15:19
Speaker 3: baby to sleep, because babies do need to learn how
15:22
Speaker 3: to go to sleep, and we have that role. All
15:24
Speaker 3: of those things are more you talk about in your
15:25
Speaker 3: book Baby Bliss. Is there anything else that we should
15:28
Speaker 3: highlight for a desperate parent who just wants an answer
15:30
Speaker 3: now and is looking for help before we wrap things up.
15:33
Speaker 1: Joe, Look, I wish there was like a you know,
15:37
Speaker 1: a magic bullet or you know, or a magic solution,
15:41
Speaker 1: you know, to sort of say, if you do this,
15:43
Speaker 1: it will work. But you've got to remember. I think
15:45
Speaker 1: the keys remembering is that every baby is unique and
15:48
Speaker 1: different and individual, and they have a whole lot of
15:50
Speaker 1: things going on themselves. You know, Temperament is really important
15:55
Speaker 1: when babies are tiny, and so trying to just understand
15:59
Speaker 1: what your baby needs are rather than trying to force
16:02
Speaker 1: them into doing something that you want them to do.
16:05
Speaker 1: Watch your baby, you know, watch them. I always like
16:09
Speaker 1: try to try to kind of decipher what those sort
16:12
Speaker 1: of like how you know, how long they need to
16:16
Speaker 1: be awake for before they actually you know, start to
16:19
Speaker 1: the wheel start to fall off, and then you know,
16:21
Speaker 1: try to get them to bed before that. You know,
16:24
Speaker 1: So watching your baby because they are telling you, they're
16:26
Speaker 1: trying to communicate to you all the time what they
16:29
Speaker 1: need and so rather than just kind of saying, well
16:32
Speaker 1: the book says this, or so and so says this,
16:35
Speaker 1: try to get to know your child and have some
16:39
Speaker 1: structure around, you know, getting them to bed in a
16:42
Speaker 1: way that they will start to remember that, you know, wrapping, soothing, singing,
16:48
Speaker 1: you know, having that kind of thing before bed is
16:51
Speaker 1: really important because babies are clever, they learn stuff really quickly,
16:55
Speaker 1: So consistency and repetition is really important.
16:58
Speaker 2: To You're taking me back there and all the right ways.
17:00
Speaker 2: I love it, Joe.
17:02
Speaker 3: If people want more information about how they can get
17:04
Speaker 3: their baby to soothe and sleep, where should.
17:06
Speaker 2: They go to learn more about what you suggest?
17:11
Speaker 1: So? I have a website baby bliss dot com dot au.
17:14
Speaker 1: There's a lot of information on there about sleep needs.
17:16
Speaker 1: So how much baby sleep a baby needs, at what age.
17:19
Speaker 1: It's obviously a broad thing, but you know that can
17:22
Speaker 1: be a starting point if there's some information on settling
17:26
Speaker 1: in the bed with the baby, like if ever you're
17:29
Speaker 1: trying to settle your baby, you should always remain with
17:31
Speaker 1: them all the time and soothing them. Babies cry, like
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Speaker 1: we said, but got to remember that as long as
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Speaker 1: someone's with them and comforting them, that that's important for them.
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Speaker 1: And also I have a book, Baby Bliss, which is
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Speaker 1: available on Amazon or iTunes or in your local bookshop if.
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Speaker 2: You ask for it, and I love that book. Hey, Joe,
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Speaker 2: thanks so much for joining me.
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Speaker 1: Nice to talk to you justin.
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Speaker 3: It's Joe Ryan from Baby Bliss, baby bliss dot com
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Speaker 3: dot A you. All the links will be in the
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Speaker 3: show notes so that you can get more info if
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Speaker 3: this is something that is desperately needed in your home
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Speaker 3: or the home of somebody that you know and love.
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Speaker 3: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Ruland.
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Speaker 2: From Bridge Media.
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Speaker 3: Craig Bruce is our executive producer.
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Speaker 2: For more info, visit Happy Families dot com dot U