Latest / ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence / Dr. Aniruddha Malpani on The State of Indian Education - Outdated Systems, Flawed Teaching Methods and Myopic Parenting (#038)

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Dr. Aniruddha Malpani on The State of Indian Education - Outdated Systems, Flawed Teaching Methods and Myopic Parenting (#038) · ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: We learn the best when we're learning to solve a particular real life problem.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: What do I care about what happened to Outbird?
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: I honestly don't.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I do care about the fact that the walls of my house are now flaking.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: The paint is coming off.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: What can I do?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Why does paint flake off?
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: What is under that paint?
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, is brick the best thing to do?
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Is there something I can do to actually paint the wall myself?
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Do I need to find someone who will paint it for me?
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: What's an oil paint?
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: What's a primer?
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: 50 different things.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know anything about it.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: I can figure it out.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Then these kids, once they start becoming learning machines, what changes is what's happening inside their head.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Then they don't think of themselves like I'm an idiot or I'm a doofus or I'll never understand or I'm challenged.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: They will say, you know what, if I could figure this out, if I could figure out how to paint my house, I can figure out anything.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to necessarily read a textbook in order to figure it out.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: I learned what I needed to know when I needed to know it.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's called just in time learning.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's completely different from just in case learning.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Just in case five years from now you need to sit for an IAS exam and the UPSC examiner happens to ask you Agbarki BB Conti.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: So just in case you need to learn, so let me teach you now, which I think is ridiculous.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Hi Dr.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Anirudda, thanks a lot for joining today and being a guest.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's an absolute uh you know privilege uh that you've accepted to be a guest in our podcast, and somebody like you who's got phenomenal uh uh you know diverse experience is something that uh you know I can see and the work that you you're doing, not just as a doctor, but as an angel investor, as a as somebody who's interested in uh you know environment, it's quite amazing how you get the time to do it.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: And thanks a lot, and thanks a lot for giving us the time.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: No, you know, I'm actually looking forward to this.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: I I always tell people you need to reinvent yourself every so often.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the great thing about reaching a particular age and having a certain degree of income and having a very efficient wife allows me to do a lot of the stuff and you know, do all the stuff which I want to do.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I think that works well.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I tell everyone, you know, God is kind, I'm blessed.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, if I don't make the most of these opportunities, and really think about it, India is in such a sweet spot.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh just so many things are magically happening together, and uh you know, I I really think that there's so much all of us can contribute.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: So really excited to be talking to you.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, you know, when I really went through uh some of the stuff that you do, uh Dr.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Anirodha, I think you are an IVF specialist turned into an angel investor.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Turned once it turned, I haven't stopped being an IVF specialist, so I continue being an IVF specialist, I continue being an angel investor.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: I continue, I'm also thinking of myself as being a social impact entrepreneur because we're trying various initiatives.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, I think you know the good thing is the more the heads I wear, the better.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: My dream is to be a Ravan.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, not not the mythological Ravan who was a villain, but the Ravan who was the ultimate Brahmin who would, you know, the ultimate worshipper of Shiva, who had so much knowledge.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's why he needed so many heads because he couldn't fit all that knowledge into one head.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so where was this interest to look at so many uh activities?
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And not often you see somebody who has a very, very thriving practice to actually look at these things.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, can you talk a little bit about where these uh you know uh inspiration and motivation for you came from?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I think to a certain extent, a lot of what we do is a result of our history, and initially a lot of your history is contributed by your parents, your upbringing, the education.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: But gradually over time, I think we also need to remember that we learn a lot from our children as well.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: And for example, from my parents, got a great education, and my parents were always very socially minded.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, they started an organic farm in Madhya Pradesh because they felt the soil was being damaged.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: This was way ahead of the time when no one was really talking about any of these climate change issues.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: So we have a site called Amrit Krushi, which we're trying to popularize the idea of how can you use Amrit Murti, which is organic farming, to keep the soil healthy because all these shortcuts of using chemical fertilizers never work.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Similarly, that started an orphanage in Virar.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: It was saying, you know, our kids have been blessed.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: What can we do for other people who aren't so fortunate?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: So some of that has always been ingrained that you don't really earn your money to just for yourself.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a lot more.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: There's a trusteeship concept.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I think a lot of that, and as I said, God has been kind, we've been taught to be frugal.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Being a Marwadi helps a little bit because you know you don't keep on trying to show off how much you have.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Both my parents were doctors, so a little bit of that professionalism, the importance of putting patients first, that came in.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: And interestingly, for example, my daughters have had a very varied career, I would say.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, most people think, hey, you're such successful doctors.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure your kids must be doctors too.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: And we said, No, neither of them is.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, the older one, she did a BSc, got a scholarship to go to Oxford to do an MSc in immunology.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Didn't like that, said, you know, I want to do something else.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: She got went to Cambridge to study environmental sciences.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't like that.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: Then she went to London and she worked in a social impact fund of funds called uh Bet, you know, Big Capital.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: This is one of the world's largest fund of funds for social impact investing.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it was actually part of a government of UK.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: And she was one of the first few employees.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the point is, you need to keep up with your kids.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: You can't afford to, you know, you don't want them to think of you as, oh, he's an old fogey, uh fuddy duddy, dinosaur, doesn't understand anything.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I these were all new words for me, very honestly.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, profit with purpose, what social impact is, how do you combine it?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of it made a lot of sense.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: And quite honestly, I think philanthropy is great, charity is great, but how do you make sure it outlives you?
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: How do you create institutions which will grow?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I really liked.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: So there was that little bit of marrying capitalism with compassion, what's called compassionate capitalism.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: And since she was doing it and she was talking about ebitas and profit and loss and balance sheet.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I always tell my kids, you know, thank you so much for keeping me on my toes.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the reasons why I'm an angel investor, because it's, you know, hanging out with young entrepreneurs is so rewarding because they come with a fintech background or an AI background or, you know, whatever else it is, stuff which I don't know anything about.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: But I need to be sure that at least I can have an intelligent conversation with them.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: So A, I expect them to be able to teach me lots of stuff which I and trust me, you know, you learn a lot very, very quickly when you're learning from someone who's an expert.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you also learn how well they're at bullshitting.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Some of them are bullshit artists, which is also fine.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, some of that.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you need to make mistakes.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the great thing about an angel investor is you learn very, very quickly.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: You lose money in the process, and I think that's fine.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think as long as you're very clear in your head.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I measure my angel investments in terms of what I call an LOI or learning on investment.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's really not a financial ROI.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: I doubt very much whether I'll make any money on any of my startups.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: By definition, they're very fragile, these are complex adaptive systems, most of them have been designed to deliberately die and to fail.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll come back to that in a minute and explain why.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: But the point is, I can at least take a step back.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, therefore, my asset allocation in my head is very clear.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Professional income is very hard-earned.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you earn it by blood, sweat, tears.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's never money I would put in a startup.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Trust me, just too much, too much at stake.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: But God has been kind.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: The Indian markets have been kind, the Indian public markets have done very well.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: So the corpus has grown enormously, as a result of which the passive income which I get from the public markets, the dividends, the you know, share price increase has been so much that that's what I then allocate towards investing in startups.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: To that extent, then I'm not saying it's easy come, easy go.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like I'm writing the money off.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: But to that extent, you don't get so emotionally agitated when a startup fails because, okay, you know, we tried our best, we followed the process, we learned from these mistakes, we won't repeat those mistakes again, and then we'll carry on.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think to that extent, I think the money now, the emotional income I get comes from my IVF practice.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because trust me, you know, you give someone who doesn't have a baby a baby, you've changed their life so dramatically, and nothing in the world can possibly match that smile of the baby and the smile of the couple who's had that baby.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that's my emotional income bucket.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: The financial income bucket comes from the markets, which, you know, like I said, have been kind.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a very patient investor.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't understand anything about investing in the public markets, so I outsource that.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I have great people whom I trust, whom I've been with for over 10 years now, who manage that piece very well.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: The angel investing piece allows me to marry a lot of this stuff so that then whatever I'm learning is no longer just theoretical or reading from a book.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually getting a chance to apply it, but I don't need to do the hard work because I'm not capable of doing it.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have enough domain expertise.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: So kind of, you know, I let my wife do all the hard clinical work, I let my PMS managers do all the hard investing work, I do my let my entrepreneurs do all the hard work of actually running a startup, and then I sit and have chats on podcasts with people like you.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I was just gonna say that uh I was gonna ask you a couple of uh questions regarding you know your practice, but then uh the background really changed the direction of the questions I wanted to ask.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: What?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not good enough.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: You got distracted by my background, and you know, I'm not good enough that you know you're not you're not distracted.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: I need to do something about I need to go see a plastic surgeon or something.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, it's actually the sum total of everything in the background.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_03: That's why I'm having a lot of fun having this conversation.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_03: So so, Doctor, uh uh just as a general question, you obviously have said that you read multiple books in parallel.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, you you break a lot of the general tenets that young Indians are taught when it comes to reading books, that you have to read a book from start to finish.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_03: There are a lot of these myths that as one grows up, they bust for themselves.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: That it's absolutely not true.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_03: You can throw books away if you're not interested, you can pick them back up and it's relevant.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_03: So, can you talk to me a little bit about your journey as a reader uh first, and then I want to talk to you about some books that have changed your life?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I think that's a great question.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: As you quite correctly said, I have a soft corner for books, and I think the amount of knowledge which is packed in books, whether you're talking about how to learn a particular domain, whether you're talking about how to learn your life, to lead your life, whether it's philosophy, spirituality, there is actually nothing which you can't find in a book.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for 300 rupees, 500 rupees, the amount of knowledge which you get, and honestly, that's my preferred mode of consumption for multiple reasons.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: For one thing, a book doesn't have a hidden agenda.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying books don't have agendas, you know, obviously an author has a particular perspective and has a particular point of view.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: You need to be able to sophisticate it enough to understand that.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: But he's not trying to extract money from you.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas when you talk to a professional, you know, you're lucky you have a trusted professional, I think that's fine.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: But it's not very easy to find trusted professionals.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: As a result of which, I think books play such an important role.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: They provide you with a basic foundation.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what I call when I tell all my patients, I call it what I call information therapy.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: So at least you know enough so that then when you need to engage with a professional, the quality of questions which you can ask that professional is increased dramatically.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's why it's so important to have a goal when you read.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: You cannot use the same style when you're reading any book.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: So the way I would read a fiction book, obviously, is very different from the way I would read a non-fiction book.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: The way I would read a book about IVF would be very different from, let's say, a book I would read about investing.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we need to be able to have that agility and to have that flexibility.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of the problems very honestly start in school, and I'm more and more coming to that conclusion is that so many of these bad habits are so deeply ingrained in us because of our schooling.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the worst thing is we don't even realize that these are bad habits, that they're being deeply ingrained, and what's even worse is we are inflicting exactly the same shortcomings on our kids, which is actually going to make a bad situation much worse.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll come back to that.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: The point of a book is it's a tool like anything else, it's a tool for you to extract whatever information you want.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the way I read a book will be different from the way you read a book.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: The way I read a book today will be different if I revisit that book five years from now.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we need to understand some of this stuff.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to be a slave to the book, the book needs to be a slave to you, which means you need to read actively.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: And there's lots of techniques which have been described.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, first skim through a book, have your lattice work, your mental models in your framework, so to say, and then decide where that book fits.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: And there are often chapters which you already know enough about.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Reading the book doesn't add any value.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Skip those chapters, you know, move to where the points are.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: If the book is not engaging you, you're not going to learn from the book.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then if reading the book is becoming a punishment, if it's a chore, if you have to think, oh god, I have another hundred pages.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: When am I ever going to get over this?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: Please leave that book.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's not fair on the book, it's not fair on the author, and it's definitely not fair on you.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you will find lots of other books which will appeal to you.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm a big believer in the concept of what I call the anti-library.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: The anti-library is the books you buy, but which you haven't read yet.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know what?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Whenever you need to find that information, you know that that book is there.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's perfectly okay to adapt your reading style to meet what your learning needs are at that point.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: So first start with the end in mind.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Start with your goal.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: What do I want to read this book for?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Do I just want to introduce myself to the domain, or do I already know this and there are some gaps which I'm trying to fill up?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: For me, that's one of the reasons why I enjoy LinkedIn in the past and Twitter these days.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because I then start reading very actively.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: I try to distill the information.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I try to distill the information in a way which not only will make sense to me, but also will make sense to so many other people who are following me.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: As a result of which I think the reading becomes much more active, and I think that's the secret source.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: There is passive reading, like watching TV, where you're just absorbing information and you hope that that information will get absorbed by osmosis.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: Sadly, that doesn't work.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: But of course, there's the active reading where you're actively engaged in a conversation with the author.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Why did you say that?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know what?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't agree.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I read that book two years ago, and he had a very different point of view.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, you know, I'm reading three books, and each book has something else to say.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Or I couldn't understand this paragraph at all from this book, but this book made it all crystal clear.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you know, the great thing about exponential anything, the value of compounding, as Warren Buffet says, is everything compounds exponentially.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Sadly, your weight also compounds, not exponentially linearly, hopefully, at some point.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: But other than that, kidding apart, you know, wealth compounds exponentially, but your learning compounds exponentially.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: And the more you read, the easier it becomes to read.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: But the trouble is we force kids to read when they're not ready, when they don't want to read, they become allergic to reading, they hate reading.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: When you insist, you tell a three-year-old or a four-year-old you have to know the alphabet, you have to cram this.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's actually become a bit of a status symbol and a competition in amongst parents.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, your kid is only reading a book which has 10 pages, my kid reads a book which has a hundred pages.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you know, your kid will learn to read when it interests your kid.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Trust me, it'll happen.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter if your kid doesn't interested till eight years now, and if you let it happen organically and naturally, it'll be much more fun for your kid and much less pain for you.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: So let me give you an example.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Suppose your kid loves playing with, let's say, Lego toys and tinkering and assembling or whatever it may be, and he hates reading, that's fine, don't force him.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, at some point he will realize that if I need to assemble the next set of Lego toys, I need to read the manual.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Initially, perhaps he will watch a video.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: He will watch a video to get because that's his preferred learning style.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: But after a particular point, he'll say, you know what, I need to know more.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then if you're smart and you buy a book on how to assemble Legos and you leave it lying around the house, you'll catch him reading and looking at the pictures and trying to figure out how the words work and stuff.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: And after a few months, he'll want to start writing about his experiences because he will want to show his friends, hey, you know, this is how much I can do, or this is how much I know.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: The whole point is that all of us are social animals, all of us are learning machines.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Just watch the way a baby who learns before they go to school and they will automatically absorb so much information because they can't survive without learning.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's only when we send them to school and we force them to do things which they don't want to do that they start hating learning.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: And the first casualty is often reading.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I've come across adults who will do anything but refuse to read a book, and they don't even understand how much pleasure they're depriving themselves for.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I honestly feel sad for them.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like Mark Twain said you know, what's the difference between an illiterate man and a man who can read and refuses to read?
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's just a big tragedy.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm more and more convinced that trying to address these problems at a college level is never going to help.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because those habits have become so deeply ingrained that you really need to start addressing them at a much earlier stage, and the sooner the better.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Some of it is you have to repair the damage which schooling has done.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: But if you can actually address a lot of these problems before, I think then schools will automatically start changing.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's wishful thinking.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: But more importantly, kids will not get influenced by some of the wrong things which they're being taught.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: They will understand, you know, maybe yes, that's right, that's one way of doing things, but that's not the only way of doing things.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: There is a better way of doing things that I need to find out what works for me, and I don't have to do everything just because Mrs.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Patel in the geography class tells me this is what I need to do.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is superb.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I mean, allow me to be a little provocative as well.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: Please.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: We should have some fireworks on this podcast.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, if if we don't entertain our audience, one of us is not doing a good job, and that's not me, then it's on you.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh sorry.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_03: So I'll I'll I I'll also add another layer to this because I think a lot of the issues also are a matter of courage.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's the the problem that parents don't have the courage to say that, look, I think the traditional system is not working out for my kid.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: Do they have the courage to accept that?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: That's the first question.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: The second, the second point is that even from the child's perspective, hey, I okay, I understand algebra is important, but the way that Mrs.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_03: David is teaching me is not working out for me.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: So who do I go and have this conversation with?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_03: And is this even the conversation that an aller will tolerate?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: That's the second question.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: Do they have the courage to have that conversation?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: And the third, and the third question is do even faculty members, students, teachers, I mean not students, teachers and administrators have the courage to even see whether kids are actually satisfied with what they are learning, what they are applying, uh, whether the curriculum that one of the big problems I have, right?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like when I was preparing for my 10th standard, uh, I thought all schools taught the same curriculum.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_03: Then I got my ICSC booklet where I saw how many subjects were taught.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, why do why did someone choose this for me?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_03: So it's also a question about being rebellious productively and intellectually, where you are willing to be open-minded about the things that you want to explore and very clear about things that I don't enjoy.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: So, do we have a vacuum in this sort of a conversation about courage?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: And how do we even encourage parents, administrators, and children to have very brutally honest conversations, whether things are working out for them or not working out?
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_03: Because, like you said, if we want a future occupied by learning machines and not machine learning, honesty is gonna be a very, very critical component of it.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think you've summarized it very well, and in fact, the way you've summarized it actually tells you where the problem lies.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's a wicked problem, it's not a problem which can be solved either at the level of the child or at the level of the family or at the level of the parents or at the level of the school or at the level of this thing because it's there's so many moving parts.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're absolutely right.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: The biggest problem, obviously, if you look at a child, if you look at a baby, for example, the baby is great at getting its own way.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine you have a six-kilogram old baby who can manipulate a 60-kilogram adult just by crying or just by smiling or you know anything else, they get their way, there's no question about it.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's only afterwards that they start losing some of the skill sets, especially when they start being forced to conform when they go to school.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we need to have this clear demarcation.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Preschool, kids are brilliant, schooling, they go down, and by the time they reach college, they've gone down completely.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, first let's acknowledge the fact, and this has been proven multiple times.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Times that traditional schooling is harmful for kids.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the great books on weapons of mass destruction, and I think schooling definitely is doing that.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: But the problem is because we are all products of schooling ourselves, we've been so deeply brainwashed by the schooling system that we refuse to acknowledge that elephant in the room.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: And there is often a sense of helplessness.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: What can I do?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: I agree school is terrible, but what other choice do I have?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, everyone else sends their kids to school, or even the Ambani send their kids to school.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, of course I need to send my kids.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I think part of the problem with schooling is the conformity, which means by the time you become a parent, you're so used to herd mentality, following the crowd, doing what the rest of it is doing is that you refuse to use your brain.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's a lot of the problems.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, this problem starts compounding itself and it starts becoming worse generation to generation.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Now, let's be honest, what choices did my parents have?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: None.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: All the knowledge was locked up in schools.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: You had to go to a school library or a bookstore if you want to read, you had to go to a teacher, there really weren't any other options.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's no longer true today.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's the point.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: You cannot keep on using a system which was devised 200 years ago in order to create soldiers for the army and clerks for the bureaucracy in this particular day and age.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: It makes absolutely no sense.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: But because parents have been so used to doing what they've been told to do, they refuse to rock the boat.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: Which means the number of parents who have the courage to do that, and you're using the word courage, and I'm really happy that you're doing that.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: The ones who are willing to homeschool, the ones who are willing to consider alternative education is just a handful.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: The tragedy is that even if you know your kid is miserable in school, your kid is getting bullied, your kid is getting left behind, your kid is failing, your kid is learning, your kid gets stomach cramps in the morning because he doesn't want to go to school, he gets a headache when he comes back because the teacher called him an idiot, he can't finish his homework, he doesn't understand, he hates school, he hates his friends, he hates this thing.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, part of the problem is as parents, we forget.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: We kind of only selectively remember all our friends about how our school days were the best days of our life.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: No responsibility, nothing.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: You just partied all day long and just had fun and played games.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, your mind plays games with you, and you forget about the fact that you had a teacher who hated your guts.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you had teachers whose guts you hated, you had bullies who would bully you, you hated having to come back to class with a five on ten, and where your mom said, What are you doing?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: Why are you such an idiot?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Or you hated having to do your homework.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's just so many things, and we conveniently forget those unhappy memories.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: And when our kid comes back and tells us those, we blame the kid.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: We say, You're the idiot, you're not working hard, you're not motivated.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: How come you're the only one who has a problem in class?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: How come everyone else is doing extremely well?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: You're lazy, you're unmotivated, it's your fault.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's not kids who are failing, it's the schools who are failing our kids.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: The trouble is we're so obsessed with the toppers, with the guys who get the high marks, that we forget the fact that our schools are letting the huge majority of students completely down.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: We're not tapping into their potential.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, to your point, parents don't have the courage and they definitely don't want to drop the board because if you tell your teacher, hey, I think you're a crappy teacher, they're so scared because the kid is so vulnerable that the teacher will then take out the coolness on the kid, and the kid will do even worse.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: That they tell the kid, you know, what can we do?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I have a terrible boss at work, but I put up with my boss.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: So you have a terrible teacher in school, you learn to put up with your teacher.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is the way real life is.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: You better get used to all these compromises because you know it's not gonna be a bed of roses.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, therefore, you start compromising, you start forcing your kid to compromise.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, where is the pressure on teachers to improve?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: If everyone started walking out of the class, trust me, I think things would be changed very dramatically, but that's not gonna happen.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's a show, you know, schools are actually designed to keep kids out.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: You're designed to create all these little enclaves of privilege where you know I'm only gonna take a hundred students, and unless you get a sefarish from a prime minister, or unless you get a letter from the chief minister, I'm not even gonna let you get.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: So the parents are spending all their time and energy on pushing their kids into getting into the most desirable school, irrespective of the fact that the teachers are the worst and the school doesn't care.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, all these fancy schools treat parents like shit.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Pardon my French, but they disrespect parents.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: They kind of think parents are idiots, they don't understand anything.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, you know, if tomorrow the child sees that the teacher is dissing the parent and disrespecting the parent, just think about what the second-order consequences of that are going to be.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think schools are actually driving a huge wedge between the parent and the child because there's so much peer pressure, there's so much things going on, you're spending the child is spending the best part of his day in school.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: As a result of which, he gets exposed to influences which the parent is completely powerless to counteract.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: And what's even worse is in one sense, parents have given up.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Their whole approach is you know, I'm an idiot.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: What do I understand?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember calculus or trigonometry.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: All these teachers are BEDs, and in IB schools, so they're highly qualified and they're experts at teaching all this stuff.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: So let them do their job and what the hell am I paying five lakhs a year from?
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, what do I understand about this?
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I did my job, I got made sure my kid got into the best possible school.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm paying the fees on a regular basis.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: And if they're not happy with the school, what do they do?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: They send the kid to a tuition class.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you can afford an expensive tuition class, then you get the tutor to come home and to teach.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: But what message are you giving your kid?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: You're an idiot, you're never going to be able to learn for yourself.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: We need to spoon feed you, we need to provide you with someone who's smarter, wiser, more intelligent than you who will teach you what you need to learn.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's such a broken model.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because effectively, when you have a classroom size of 30 kids or 20 kids or 40 kids or whatever it is, we're forced to use a one-size-fits-all.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: And the reality is the teachers' interests are not aligned with the child's interest.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: End of the story.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: Teachers love the toppers, obviously, everyone loves the toppers.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: But what happens to the rest of the batch?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, they either push them off or say this kid's never gonna do well, they write the kid off.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine the harm which you're causing a child's self-esteem, that child's self-confidence.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: When that child is eight-year-old and so vulnerable, and when a grown-up adult whom that child looks up to and says, You're an idiot, you know, you're a C grader, you're never gonna do well in life, you're never gonna understand mathematics, or this is just way beyond you.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: And they especially do that for girls.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: What kind of messaging are we providing?
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: And sadly, parents are accepting these messages, as a result of which you're damaging that child's self-confidence, self-esteem, enjoyment, everything.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: As a result of which, these kids then they start getting so turned off that by the time they became teenagers, they rebel.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: And especially once they get a chance to go to college, that's the time when they start experimenting, whether it's drugs, whether it's alcohol, whether it's smoking, whether it's sex, and then all these parents say, What happened to my sweet little child?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he used to be such a darling and he did everything, and now he's gone and he's this guy I don't even recognize.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: But that's because you abandoned your child when your child needed you and needed to be protected when your child was six and seven and eight, and needed to be sheltered.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: And you needed to tell him at that point, you know, I'm your parent, I have skin in the game, I will make sure that you enjoy your learning process, I will help you to learn how to learn.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that time you just abandoned him to all these teachers who really didn't care.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: So by the time he's 12, 14, he cares more about his peers and his friends, and he's more interested in impressing them rather than you.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's because you let your kid down, because you didn't do a good job with parenting, because you expected a school to do that job for you.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: You effectively outsourced the most important thing you could possibly give your child, which is a happy childhood, by locking up in the school, and even worse, forcing him to do homework, and then even worse, forcing him to send him to tuition classes.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Where did he ever have time to play?
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: Where did he ever have time to explore what his interests were?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: We have all these extracurricular activities, and even those are forced down a kid's throat.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: No, you have to learn Bharat Natyam, no, you have to learn coding, no, you have to do this.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what sense does it make?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Why can't we just leave these kids alone and why can't we just accept the fact that just because they're smaller than us doesn't mean that they're not the experts on themselves.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: They are, and it's by forcing them to do things they don't want to do, that's when the problems start occurring.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: Which is why there's this huge movement about whether you call it unschooling, whether you call it unlearning, whether you call it relearning.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: But sadly, it's only a very, very small minority.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, there's this huge thing about cognitive dissonance.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, no, no, what I'm doing is right.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: Even if people will accept the fact that the kid is not happy in school, they will rarely have the courage to do what is the logical next step, which is pull their kid out of school.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because they said, what's the guarantee that the second school will be any better?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: Or this is the school which has the best reputation, or this is the school which has the fanciest kids, or whatever else it is, or the IB board or anything else.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: If I pull my kid out of school, then the next school may be even worse.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like the known devil is better than anything else, and there are any number of excuses parents will come up with.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, but I'm hard at work, I work all day.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't it enough that I pay my college at the school fees and my college fees?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: And am I supposed to do anything else?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: So by the time the parents come back from work, they're so tired that they're sitting on a couch watching TV or watching their mobile, and then they expect their kid to do their homework.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now just imagine what kind of role model you're setting your kid.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: You're effectively saying, you know, you're so tired, so kid is saying, What the hell?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm equally tired, I'm more tired.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: I had to do things which I didn't want to do.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you goofed off half your working day, you spent a coffee break and a tea break, and you were gossiping and you were, you know, whatever else you wanted to do.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have a choice with any of these things at all.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: And now you're continuing to force me to do things I don't want to do, as a result of which kids are very good at sensing hypocrisy.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: And they're very, very clear that a lot of parents have basically abandoned them to their own fate, and lots of them are resenting it.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, to your point, you know, let's this is all the problems which I've described.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: So the problems occur both from the kid because the kid feels completely trapped.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: Who does he turn to?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: If your kid is lucky and has a grandparent who happens to be living in the family, I think that's great, you know, because often grandparents have a little more maturity and wisdom and say, you know, leave him alone.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Why are you keeping on hassling him?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Or I remember when you were in the seventh standard, you failed all your exams and you're still turned down.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so why are you giving him such a hard time about failing his exams?
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, so I think that's the parent piece, the kid piece.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: And let's look at the teachers, for example.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: Teachers had very little autonomy, that's the reality.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: They don't command any respect.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, people diss them all the time.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: As a result of which, the ability of the teacher, even a caring teacher, to change a kid's fate is very limited because they're so forced to doing clerical activities, taking attendance, making sure the syllabus gets completed, that they really don't have any opportunity to allow that kid to thrive.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: As a result of which, most teachers feel trapped.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Lots of the best teachers actually burn out within two or three years and they hate what the schooling system is doing to the kids, and they said, you know what, I can't take this anymore.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore they step out and they look for alternative opportunities.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, to your point, it's a systemic problem.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the child to blame, it's not the parent to blame, it's not the school to blame.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: And systemic problems are wicked problems, so they're very hard to solve, which is not to say that solutions aren't available.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: People have looked at alternative solutions for many, many years, and that's some of the stuff which I'm experimenting with, which is where I wear my social entrepreneurship hat.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I've spoken too long.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_03: You know, one of the best I listen to a lot of podcasts, and one of the best podcasts I listened to this year was a conversation between uh Ross Roberts and Roman Fryer.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_03: Roman Fryer has very quickly become one of my heroes, intellectual heroes.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_03: And he talks about uh the efforts that he took to transform the learning and education process in this and the kind of experiments he ran using government money.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_03: One of the things that he actually spoke about was he learned from teachers were an issue.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_03: He had a single test to identify which teachers to keep and which teachers to sack.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, the test was this he would ask a teacher what needs to be done.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_03: She says, Look, you're the expert, you tell me what the curriculum is, you tell me how what's the mode of communication, you tell me what are the protocols, and I will work 10 hours, 12 hours with these kids to get them wherever I want them.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_03: He knew those are the teachers who were committed to the process.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: The teachers he knew to sack were the ones when he asked what's the problem.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_03: They said, It's very easy, we need smarter kids, and those are the teachers he sat.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so I'm I I I recommend that episode to everybody because I think about ideas of that conversation at least once a week, which ties back to your social venture sort of uh funny ventures website when I was going through it because when I saw the kinds of initiatives, when I saw the kinds of content, website, etc., I realized this is someone who thinks very, very deeply about these issues, whether it is communication, whether it is getting the right programs running.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_03: So, can you talk a little bit about how is it that you are running this after looking at both uh background and life sciences biology?
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_03: So when you understand the nature of how people learn, how they grow, plus when you look at how products are built, how companies are built, how scale is achieved, how do you combine those two lines of thinking?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_03: Your social venture angle.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think that's the good thing about having expertise in different domains.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: You try to marry the best.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't get intimidated when someone talks about cognitive neuroscience or this is how we learn, or there's a constructivist theory, and there is uh this thing.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think that's fine.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: This is jargon, I can pick up that jargon very, very quickly.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't get phased by anyone saying, oh, this is the only way or this is the right way of doing things.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: I can choose and pick and say this is what makes intuitive sense, which is why the books are very helpful, which is why I love people like John Holt, who are willing to say, you know, whatever we he was a teacher for me.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people say, Dr.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: Malpani, you live in this little ivory tower.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: What do you understand about schools?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what do you understand?
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: Did you homeschool your kids?
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: Why are you giving us all this jn and these lectures?
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: Very valid criticism.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I say, you're absolutely right.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not the subject matter expert.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: I've brought up kids, I've been educated myself, and I can read books which are written by people who spend their entire life coming up with a point of view, and if that's a point of view, which makes sense.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: And these are people who answer their critics far more eloquently than I could possibly do.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that stuff's already there, it's been there for many, many years.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's just that people are lazy, they can't be bothered to read, they can't be able to understand what the alternatives are, and honestly, that's their loss.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, some of it is that advantage that you're coming with that side is this is a fixable problem.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: Every problem has a possible solution.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: We don't want to eat the elephant all in one shot, you know, it's one bite at a time.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of it originally was how can I identify social impact entrepreneurs who have their heart in the right place, who care about this stuff, who are deep because let's be honest, you know, I'm a dinosaur.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: My ability to actually do some stuff is becoming increasingly limited.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: But my ability to fund these people is increased dramatically.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: My ability to identify these people, thanks to Twitter, has increased dramatically.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: As a result of which I need to play to my strengths.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: Are my strengths going to be better utilized creating a learning center, or are they going to be better utilized funding a hundred learning centers?
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: So that I'm very clear about.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: This is the space I have the right to it.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: I have a particular philosophy, I'm happy to share it publicly.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: Lots of people may not agree, and you know, I make a lot of enemies by being politically incorrect, which is also absolutely fine by me.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I need to find maybe that one person out of a hundred who says, hey, you know what he's saying makes a lot of sense.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: If we can get that resonance, if we find that sync, then writing the check is the easy thing to do.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we're running a lot of these experiments, for example, beyond exams, learn with comics.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: This is all stuff which I believe in, but I can't do any of it myself.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: I have very limited bandwidth, so many hours, and definitely no technical expertise.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: So you identify people who will take the ball and run with it.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the things I'm very, very keen on doing, and hopefully I want to finish in the next one year, is the apnipatshala experiment which I'm running, which is effectively saying we're going to fund a hundred community-based learning centers.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: Now, part of the problem is so initially that's not how it started.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: We said, you know, we need to disrupt.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: People love the word disrupt, right?
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like the word disrupt at all because it sounds painful and just you know, you need to work with what is available, you need to evolve.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think change needs to be incremental, it doesn't need to be painful.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: So we said, okay, now okay, forget about disrupting.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: Let's use a Troch and horse approach that we need to get changes, but we need to get changes one at a time.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: So let's start with everyone sending their kids to tuition classes.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think there must be more kids in tuition classes than there are kids in school classes, but okay, forget that.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: So everyone's sending kids to tuition classes, and tuition classes are a mess.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, can we then set up community-based learning centers, which are technology-empowered coaching classes, tuition classes, whatever?
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: We'll call them something.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: We'll call them community-based learning pods, community-based learning centers, whatever.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: Some of that will need to be figured.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: I will write the checks, I will fund it.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, the magic sources we will provide technology, which comes from a very clever company, which is actually making computers in Bharat for Bharat, which means your ability to be able to do it frugally is great.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'll say I need to run a hundred pilots, and 90% of these will fail, and that's fine.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's my point about that's a natural history.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: Startups are designed to fail because even if 90% of these fail, the learnings we will get from the 10% who succeed will be able to amplify.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: We can't afford to have expensive failures.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want companies like TCS failing.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: But it's fine if a startup fails because of course there's a lot of damage, emotional damage, you know, 100 employees will lose their job.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: But that's better than 10,000 employees losing their job.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not saying these are expendable pawns.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm saying this is the way capitalism makes progress.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: Small steps at a time, starting with the humility that we don't have the answers.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: So we're taking a very unstructured approach.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: We're sharing our philosophy.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: What are we saying?
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: We think people in community care about kids.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: We think people in a community care about their kids' education.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: We don't think schooling is a very efficient way of providing that education, but we cannot reinvent the schooling system right now.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: We haven't earned that right.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot of kids are going to tuition classes, which are terrible because they're just schooling on steroids.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because all they do is teach you how to get more exam marks and cram more efficiently and give you tips, which is the worst possible thing to do.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, why don't we set up tuition centers slash coaching classes, slash community-based learning centers, what I call digital libraries or educational cyber cafes within a hundred communities.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: Let's start with low-income, underprivileged communities.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: And let's empower, let's give them these the technology, which is 10 computers, which means let's say you have 30 kids or 40 kids, that's two or three kids on each computer, which means they now have access to the world's best resources because they have a computer.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you can now charge a premium as compared to the regular local tuition class guy who all he does is gives lectures.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: And everyone knows that lectures are a completely broken way of doing things.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that now we're providing you with access to your kid to a computer, which I think everyone understands is the way for the future.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: Let's see what some of these things are going to happen as a result of this.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: We think there are four things required for a kid to learn.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: We think the most important thing is intrinsic motivation.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: The kid wants to want to learn.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'll come back to that again afterwards.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because by definition, schooling doesn't give that kid any freedom at all.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's 11 o'clock in the morning on Tuesday, you need to learn geography.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's 11:40, you need to learn history.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's 12:30, you need to go for your lunch break.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you want to go to the toilet, put up your hand and ask for permission.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: So everything's very regimented.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: So just when a class starts getting interesting, the kid is forced to move on to the next one.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: So completely broken, disjointed, siloed, everything else.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, therefore, we think that we're forcing kids to do what we think is rights for them.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because guess what?
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: We have white hair, we're wise, we're mature, we are older, we've seen more of the world, we've designed this great national education.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Policy with all these experts who will tell kids what to do when they don't themselves know what to do.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: And now you're preparing kids for something which is 10 years down the future, which is going to be so different from everything we've done.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, anyway, so I think we'll come back to the intrinsic motivation afterwards.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think the three things with kids they need access to world-class learning resources.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's a no-brainer.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: These world-class learning resources and these world-class teachers are not trapped in school classrooms.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: They're all available online, they're all teaching online because people love to teach, people love to share.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: The best teachers are the ones who love to teach.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's by definition.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: You can see that passion come across.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: So lots of them are available on YouTube University for free, and lots of them perhaps are available on paid courses.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't really matter.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: So the point is by giving them internet access, you're giving them access to the world's best teachers.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: So they have ability.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now, whether they're self-motivated enough to want to learn just by themselves, whether they want to do it as part of a cohort-based course, which is the fancy word online, whatever, that's fine.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's number one.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think kids need adult supervision.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what these learning community pods will provide, and I'll come back to that in a minute.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: They don't need a teacher.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: They don't need someone to tell them this is what you need to do.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually a very unstructured format.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: We don't want someone who's a teacher.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: We want someone because teachers have preconceived notions.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: This is the way to solve this particular sum.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know what?
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: There could be 50 other ways, and 49 of them could be better than the one your teacher taught you when you were a kid.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: Let the kids figure it out for themselves.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: So we want, but the adult supervision is to make sure the kids don't fight with each other, they don't break things, they do whatever else it is.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's not to make them learn, it's not even to force them to complete a curriculum or to study.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: You want to watch YouTube videos, you want to play games, you want to watch, do whatever you like.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll come back to why I think that's the right way of using an unstructured format.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: So the adult supervision, we think the magic source is the peer-to-peer learning.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you know, we keep on talking about a shortage of teachers in our country, and I think we're stupid.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: Every student is a teacher, every sixth standard kid can teach a fifth standard kid far better than a fifth standard teacher could ever do it.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because teachers suffer from the curse of expert knowledge.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: We've forgotten what it was like to know nothing.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas a sixth standard kid knows exactly what it was like to know nothing and then to be able to learn.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, and you know what?
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: They use the same language, it's a local language, they use the same metaphors.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and kids aren't scared to ask questions to someone who's one year, two years, three years older to them.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: They're very scared to ask questions to the teacher because the teacher will think you're an idiot, or the teacher will refuse to answer these questions.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that information gap goes down because there's no authority gradient.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I think a student can teach, and so that's peer-to-peer learning happening, and you know, you may know geography, your friend may know history, someone or the other in that group will be able to teach you.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: So you have adult supervision, you have access to the world's best resources, and you have peer-to-peer learning.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: We think that's enough to be able to get this going.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: But we think the magic source is intrinsic motivation, which means we're not telling you do this particular thing.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're saying, you know what, if you don't understand what's happening in school because your teacher went too fast, didn't explain properly, and you want to learn a little more about Akbar, why don't you do a YouTube search on Akbar and find something on Akbar in Hindi, Gujarati, Marathi, cartoon, animation, historical film, whatever you want.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: That will help you learn, and that what you learn for yourself will be much stickier than what a teacher forces you to cram for an exam.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: Your depth of learning will be much more, your breadth of learning will be much more, your context will be much more.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's not what you learn, it's how you learn.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: So we're teaching you to take ownership of your ability to learn for yourself.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: Multiple good things happen.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: You don't understand how to do your homework.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna do it for you, sorry.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: I can tell you where to find the resources, or even if I can't tell you where to find the resources, I will tell you you can go talk to this particular person in this class and he will help you find the resources to learn for yourself.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, this is how you solve the homework piece.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great way of using the flipped classroom model because this is what your teacher is gonna teach you the next day, or this is what your textbook covers.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, why don't you just do this quickly?
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's so much time wasted in a school that you could actually finish an entire day's academic curriculum within two hours of focus learning.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that if you've done that before, when you go to school, boss, you're gonna be the wheel's kid, you're gonna become the teacher's pet because you know everything about Akbar.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know who Akbar's father was, you know who Akbar's wife was, you knew who Akbar's kids are, you knew exactly what happened.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: How can this teacher not be impressed by a kid who takes so much interest in what is happening so that you become the teacher's pet even in school, and the kid then gets the teacher's special attention?
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: So you're using the flipped classroom model as far as academics go, you're using help the homework as far as academics go, and you know what?
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want to do the academics, don't do them.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really care.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: You want to learn more about you know, whatever photography, bharat natyam, your mother wants you to learn something, or your mother, you know what, actually does pottery at home, or your mother has a cow at home and she's not sure how to do when that cow is sick, or your father has a farm and you want to know what else you can do on that farm, or what my point is, these all need to be related to real life problems.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: We learn the best when we're learning to solve a particular real life problem.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: What do I care about?
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: What happened to outburst?
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: I honestly don't, but I do care about the fact that the walls of my house are now flaking, the paint is coming off.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: What can I do?
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: Why does paint flake off?
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: What is under that paint?
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, is brick the best thing to do?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: Is there something I can do to actually paint the wall myself?
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: Do I need to find someone who will paint it for me?
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: What's an oil paint?
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: What's a primer?
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: 50 different things.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know anything about it.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: I can figure it out.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: Then these kids, once they start becoming learning machines, what changes is what's happening inside their head.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: Then they don't think of themselves like I'm an idiot or I'm a doofus or I'll never understand or I'm challenged.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: They will say, you know what, if I could figure this out, if I could figure out how to paint my house, I can figure out anything.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to necessarily read a textbook in order to figure it out.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: I learned what I needed to know when I needed to know it.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's called just in time learning.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's completely different from just in case learning.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: Just in case five years from now you need to sit for an IAS exam and the UPSC examiner happens to ask you Agberki, BB, Con T.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: So just in case you need to learn, so let me teach you now, which I think is ridiculous.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: So the learning in school has no stickiness, it's used as an obsolete system.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: People, none of the kids remember anything after the summer holidays.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: We all know that.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: As a result of which, even if you think that you've taught them something, they've not learned anything.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: So don't confuse teaching with learning, don't confuse schooling with education.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: We're giving kids the power and the tools to be able to learn for themselves, and that's what we want to achieve.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: So think of these as educational cyber cafes, digital libraries.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this is exactly what Andrew Carnegie did when he died many, many years ago.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: He set up a chain of public libraries, and in that day, that was a big deal.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, most people did have access to books in those days, but the public library changed the way citizenships in the US was thought of.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: It changed the way citizens thought about themselves because they could organize, they could get the information, they understood what people were trying to tell them.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: You aren't restricted to what your school teacher happened to teach you.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're no longer restricted to physical libraries anymore.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think once you can do this, and there is no shortage of money in this country, there's no shortage of people who care about kids in this country.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I think if I can run this experiment well in the next one year, hopefully, and again, this is a thought experiment.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: Do we have any success stories?
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: Big fat zero.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: Do I hope we will get success stories?
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think we will.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: Why do I think we will get these success stories?
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think the most important thing in educational technology is the human in the loop.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: This is the caring adult, this is the trusted adult who's running that community-based learning center whose everyone else in the community trusts.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: She may be illiterate herself, she may be completely ignorant, she doesn't understand calculus or geography, but she's trusted, everyone knows her.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: So mothers know if I send my kid to auntie's class, my kid will be looked after properly because my auntie cares.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: Just imagine some of the magic which is going to happen then.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: Kids are gonna feel safe and trusted, parents are gonna feel safe and trusted.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: The parent who's taking care of that particular class has kids who are in that class, so which means she's answerable to the other kids' parents because what?
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're all neighbors.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like this thing where you meet a class teacher once a year in a parent-teacher association meeting where maybe she'll give you five minutes of a time.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is someone you meet when you're shopping every single day.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: So when she asks you, hey, you know, how is Atul doing in class or is he learning anything?
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna tell him, you know what, that guy isn't paying attention, so the mummy or the daddy, whatever else.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: You're getting parents actively involved with the learning of the kids because this is happening next door.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: Parents are welcome to walk in, they're welcome to watch what their kids are learning, whether their kids are learning a lot at all.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot more answerability, accountability, transparency because this is not in a school building which is away from everyone else, it's part of the community.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where some more of the magic comes in.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: It need not be only kids who use this learning center.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_01: We want adults to use it.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, suppose you're not very happy with what's happening in your community, you need to send an RTI application, you need to type up a letter in English, or you need to read a letter which someone has sent you so many, or you just want to improve.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you need to be able to understand what your kid is doing because your kid is doing things you can't.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: You want to upgrade your own skills.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, come, that technology already exists.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: So at some point, we hope a lot of additional things will happen.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: This will happen as a nucleus for the entire community to want to learn.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_01: Need not be restricted to kids, need not be restricted.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't have any hidden agenda.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have an agenda.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's really what makes us powerful.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: Two other three of the things we've been told is how will you know whether your kids are learning anything or not?
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a great question.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know what we're saying?
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because people are so used to teacher con, e, con, sika, lecture con dega, tomto bachego computer dere, butcha sikega kesa.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: So we're saying we're guaranteeing you that your kid will get more marks in the next exam.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: Why can I say that so confidently?
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because once you've allowed that kid to learn for themselves in an open learning environment, that kid will pick up stuff.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so that kid will definitely do it.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know what?
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: This then becomes a positive virtuocy.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, wow, you know, that kid goes to that particular class.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: Not only has that kid learned how to use a computer fluently, his English skills have improved, and he started getting many more marks.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: Once it happens for one kid, then you know, herd mentality kicks in.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: This is the good herd mentality, not the bad one.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, more parents will start sending the kids.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_01: The second thing is we want whoever runs these learning centers to charge money, and there are two reasons for that.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_01: We don't think charity is good for self-respect.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: We think people, if they pay, they will demand accountability.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when it's free, Hamare Bachelor Sikare, Kujbi karre, makya bol sakyo.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_01: But when I'm paying a thousand rupees for my kid to get educated, if you're not doing a good job, I will come and pull you up.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_01: So everyone then starts becoming much more.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is the good piece of capitalism.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: You need a market in order to get things.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: If there are two communities learning centers and one is doing a better job than the other, the bad one will close down and the good one will start a franchise and will start three and four because they've managed to crack what the magic source is.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_01: So we think that'll automatically grow.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: So we think the micro entrepreneur, the mom who runs this particular learning center now has skin in the game.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's a source of income for her.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's in her best interest to make sure that she continues providing the best possible service.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: Why should she have to care about Dr.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_01: Malpani?
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: We want her to be financially independent after that first time.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: We want her to earn more money.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's great for her self-respect, it's great, it's aspirational for other people, it's good for her self-esteem and her independence.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: We want people to earn money.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: So it's good for women's empowerment, it's great for girls because a lot of times parents are very reluctant to send girls to tuition classes because they get bullied and teased on the way and you don't know where they're going.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're sending them to auntie who's running that community class, who's your next door neighbor, you're happy to take a bad key jail.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_01: So we're providing the safe environment.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_01: Which is why we need to partner with NGOs.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because why would any community trust Dr.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_01: Malpani?
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: Communities, by definition, don't trust outsiders.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: They've been cheated left, right, and center.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_01: All these politicians come in before the elections, we will do this and we will do that, and the moment the election is over, they disappear.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone promises to give them money, and God only knows what happens to that money.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: But the NGO has been there for three years.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: These are familiar figures, these are trusted figures.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_01: So if we can partner with NGOs, and you know what?
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: NGOs have the heart in the right place.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: They're not just looking for making money, they care about an impact.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_01: So if I provide the funding and the technology, if the NGO provides that supervision, because a lot of these micro entrepreneurs may not be able to do that in the beginning, they need a little bit of hand holding.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_01: Then we can set up these centers, and then we want these centers to build in public.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: We want all these centers to have their own website.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: We want each student to have their own website.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: Then the student will start teaching other students in Malayalam or Telgu or whatever else.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine a fifth standard student wants to teach Pythogaras theorem to someone else in Malayalam.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know what?
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: At some point you may feel intimidated by a teacher.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: But we have a patzal, you know, fifth standard kid, Sikara, otherwise, maybe seek sattiho.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean that's the kind of role model.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's actually if we can use the technology cleverly, we can crack so many of these problems.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we have we've reached a demographic sweet spot.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: We have enough human capital in this country, we have enough financial capital in this country.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think we have enough Indians who have the heart in the right place.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's just a question of marrying them all together.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's what makes me want to get up in the morning and say, yes, you know, we want to be able to make a difference.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: Long-winded answer.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry about that.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_01: I get a little bit carried away.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but you know, I mean, I I believe in this so much, and I think there's just so much opportunity, and I honestly think the time is right.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's internet penetration, whether it's 4G today, whether it's 5G, whether it's the affordability of computers, so many things are magically happening, which perhaps couldn't have happened five years ago.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_01: I would be a big shame if we fritter away these opportunities.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_02: Contraminds is a podcast dedicated to decoding people, minds, strategy, and culture.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_02: We interview and learn from high performers so that you can apply these lessons on your journey to becoming the knowledge worker athlete you are meant to be.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_02: The Contraminds podcast is available on all leading podcast players.
• 1:00:09
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• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_02: And now back to the show.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant, brilliant answer.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_00: And uh as you uh you know told the story, uh, you know, the vivid pictures kept coming to my uh, you know, coming to my uh you know, thinking, and that's really what a great answer is all about, right?
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that's something that I saw.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_00: But uh one thing, uh Dr.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_00: Malpani, the the the challenge that I see also is uh you know, it's uh you know you have a uh working class that requires a certain pedigree.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, oh my son has to go to IIT, my son has to go to VJIT, my son has to go to VIT, you know, so everything is an IT everywhere.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_00: Is that you know so the real challenge, what I find is uh, you know, even that needs to be broken, right?
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because the there's a whole point that uh, you know, I was just listening to uh you know Salman Khan of Khan Academy, he said, how do you build something when your foundation is not strong?
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: So therefore, we we are all building the final working class, okay, whose foundation itself is not strong, and now we are expecting them to build world-class products, world class companies, when I don't even know my foundation is strong, right?
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, therefore, the real challenge is at one end we have to change, uh, you know, it's almost like saying you have to burn both sides of the uh you know rope.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_00: At one end, you have to break this, and you need at the other end a massive movement on the uh you know workplace, where I think a certain work ethic and a culture, which probably the US had in its 1920s, okay, where they really you know went into the fundamental sciences, which actually changed the course of America, okay.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think we need that at this side of the workplace, and I think do you think uh that's very, very critical?
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the answer to that is yes, but I think we need to start one baby step at a time because if you try to solve too many problems at one time, it's going to become increasingly hard.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: Which is why it's so important to create success stories.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right now, what else was available?
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you looked up to someone who has an IS officer, oh, it's a good one.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because that was true, but I think now gradually more and more parents are getting very disillusioned with the entire education system.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_01: Ha but check graduate banadia job name.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, what was the point?
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, to your question, I think it takes time for wisdom to dawn.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: Some people can see the leading indicators well in advance, and that's one of the reasons why Google, for example, does not care about whatever your educational background is.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_01: They care about whether you're capable of doing what we need you to do.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_01: Show us your competence, which is why I think a lot of it is now changing to micro skill certification rather than degrees.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_01: Is the change going to happen quickly?
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_01: Of course not.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_01: By definition, there is a lot of inertia in society, and that's absolutely fine.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think even if we can start changing 1%, a lot of this will have a trickle-down effect, a lot of it will have an effect which starts with success stories, that this villager who came from nowhere actually started a company which is now making money, which is being actually profitable.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think we should be realistic that the pace of change is not ever going to be as fast as we want it to be.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we live in comfortable houses, we have we live in air-conditioned towers, and for a people who's struggling to make ends meet, I understand the challenges are different.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_01: As a result of which, we're not trying to thrust anything down there, we're not trying to superimpose anything.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_01: We're saying this is a playground, it's a technology-enabled playground to help you learn.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_01: Go play and see what happens.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_01: As a result, and you know, the reality is you're already seeing some of these positive deviance.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_01: A great example is Zoho School.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know whether you're aware of this, but Zoho is actually saying, you know, we have all these 12 standard, whatever kids.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_01: We don't really care about anything else.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_01: If these are the requirements you meet, we're happy to give you a scholarship, we're happy to even give you a job down the road.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_01: Just imagine that entire signaling is starting to change.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_01: Is one Zoho school enough?
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_01: Of course not.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to need a hundred thousand Zoho schools.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I think this change is already starting to happen.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_01: And when does the change happen?
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_01: It happens when people are dissatisfied with the status quo.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you're increasingly seeing signs of dissatisfaction.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's just more and more obvious in your face.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_01: It used to be that, you know, mira bacha badaoga padega, usko job milega, secure income milega.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone understands you don't get jobs just because you graduate.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone understands that the job has no security anymore.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_01: You have a job today, and you know, you mostly get fired after two years.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I think people's mindsets are changing.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_01: Will it take time to change?
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_01: Of course it will, and I think that's absolutely fine.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_01: It can't happen faster than we want it to because disruption is painful.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I think some of these changes will be incremental.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_01: We're already seeing that.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's like he said, you know, Gibson said the future is already here, it's only unevenly distributed.
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you're already seeing certain pockets where it's starting to happen.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe today you're seeing it in the IT field, but just a matter of time where you'll start seeing it in other fields as well.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_01: Just a matter of time, honestly.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_03: The other thing I want to touch upon, at least about the Salmandhan thing, is that uh many Indians uh have a very bad habit of focusing on the wrong thing.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_03: Which is when they read the Wikipedia page for Sazman Khan, they would not focus on the fact that he set up Khan Academy to provide better Kyle education, but they'll focus on the fact that he actually went to Harvard in MIT, which basically says, yeah, you need to do school better.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_03: And they just, you know, push them back into that education system that he's trying to change from within.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the first thing.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, just as a sidebar comment or share.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_01: I have a comment about that.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is a big problem.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think basically schooling encourages a loser mentality.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, by definition, it is going to, because if you have a hundred kids sitting for an exam and only one then become a topper, you know, even the guy who becomes number two doesn't think of himself as a winner.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: He thinks himself a loser.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_01: Forget about all the all the other 99.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_01: So you're encouraging that loser mental.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_01: You're effectively saying, you know, you're helpless, you're powerless.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_01: All these other kids who have the right connections, the right network, the right parents, the right money, they're the ones who are going to become successful.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_01: So to your point, I think that's exactly what we need to be able to change.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_03: And the other thing, even about that, that generally pisses me off, personally speaking, is we we have we are raising five, six generations of young people who only know how to answer questions, but not know how to ask questions.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_03: So you have you have prepared an entire batch of people who only know how to answer questions that people have given them, whether it is in an exam paper, whether it is in a presentation, whether it is in any document that they need to prepare.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_03: But when you ask them from first principles, okay.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_03: For example, I had an assignment called Simple Product Design.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, most of my colleagues started working on it.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_03: I went to my teacher and asked, What do you mean by simple?
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_03: He yelled at me.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so we never ask those questions because somewhere we are afraid to look foolish.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_03: We are, like you said, we are afraid to ask or earn the wrath of our teachers.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_03: So, how do we move from becoming a community or a nation of answer givers to question askers, if I may use that word?
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think you framed it so well, and I think that's exactly the problem.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_01: If you try implementing these changes, by the time the person has become a graduate, it's going to be extremely hard.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_01: Which is why Narayan Murti keeps on complaining about how terrible all the graduates are who apply for N-Forces jobs.
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly why the change needs to happen at a much earlier stage, because by that time, so you know you can't teach a 16-year-old ethics because he's already it's already been end-grade.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_01: He's watched his parents grow up all the time.
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_01: And if at your home you encourage your kids to ask questions, which means the first thing we normally do is don't ask so many questions, or I'm too tired, or you know, whatever else it is.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if your attitude is, you know what, that's a great question.
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_01: Let's figure out the answer for ourselves.
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you know what, that's a great question, but you know, I don't know the answer.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_01: But let's go meet Mr.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_01: Desai, who stays next door, who happens to be an engineer, maybe he'll have an answer.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you know what?
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_01: I honestly don't know, but let's watch a YouTube video and see if the answers are there.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I think if we create this attitude that you can figure out stuff for yourself, everything is figure outable.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I honestly believe that.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_01: There's a great book called Figure Outtable, actually.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if we start with that mindset, that that's when it starts.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, okay, fine.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_01: The first thing is here is the question, let me answer that question.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_01: The second step, when you have enough confidence in being able to answer those questions, your second step will be, you know, I answered that question, but I think it was a pretty crappy question because the answer was just a Google search away.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_01: Why can't we start asking better questions?
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think that then that's where starts happening.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_01: So usually the quality of a kid's questions are a hundred times better than the quality of an adult's questions, let's be honest.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's just that we can't answer them.
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we can only answer those simple things which a teacher asks us or which a boss has asked us, so we are comfortable with those.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_01: But to your point, I think there are lots of great books written on open-ended questions on how to be able to ask that.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_01: And none of these are difficult.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know the simple things why, how, when, where.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_01: When you start from those, it's not very difficult.
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_01: Being able to figure some of this stuff out.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_01: You again, it just comes back to giving the kids the freedom, respecting kids enough to give them the freedom, trusting your kids enough to give them that, and allowing your kids to have that courage to be able to ask those questions.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think it all boils down to the fact is we don't respect our kids enough because they're so much smaller than us and because they're so much more dependent on us.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_01: And if we said if we change that attitude, and you know, we took the approach this kid is a guest in our house.
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_01: We brought this kid up, and if we treated all our kids as respected guests who are going to be in our life for maybe 15 years, 20 years, or whatever else it is, and then they're gonna grow away and grow apart.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think if we did that, a lot of these things would automatically change.
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_00: I honestly believe that amazing kids as guests.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_00: I've never uh heard something like that, so that's an amazing, uh, you know, amazing way to look at things.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um so one of the things, uh, you know, when you look at the kind of change that you're trying to do in the way you are explaining things, uh, right, from a social enterprise which starts to change this, uh uh, you know, the uh the underground movement, the groundswell for it, okay, is going to take a lot more time, right?
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, do you believe that uh you know uh parents uh are ready to kind of do this change that you're talking about?
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_00: Do you believe the society is ready?
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because we are we are too much of the society which is actually saying, you know what?
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I have to put up my graduation ceremony in my Facebook, okay?
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_00: I have to do this in my uh you know, WhatsApp message.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and I keep looking at them and I keep looking at it saying, I don't need my kids' graduation ceremony.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_00: I I it doesn't I don't care, okay.
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_00: I want the kid to think, I want the kid to succeed, right?
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like saying that uh, you know, I had a very interesting uh you know conversation where uh you know somebody was learning music, and uh, you know, I had to put them under some other teacher, and uh the parent said, you know what, he's been learning music for seven years, and therefore, would you start from what he would teach seven years later?
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the music, whatever, uh, you know, after seven years of learning music, and this teacher said, I don't know what he learned for seven years, maybe he has to start from basics.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so which means that a typical schooling believes that when you are in seventh standard, you can go to eighth standard, but when you really look at a professional skill, you being there for seven years doesn't mean that you know you will automatically move to the eighth standard.
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_00: You may have to start from for uh you know uh first standard.
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you get children, how do you get parents to understand this?
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you really want mastery, you have to do this, and this uh you know this understanding is very, very important, but I don't see that uh across parents.
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I think parents understand that intuitively for certain things.
• 1:13:13
  SPEAKER_01: So let me give you an example.
• 1:13:14
  SPEAKER_01: If you're teaching your kid how to cook, once you've taught your kid a certain thing, so and I think the principle is simple: it's called see one, do one, and teach one.
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_01: So you're teaching your kid, you're your kid's first teacher, and you continue teaching your kid.
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_01: So let's take a simple thing like how to make an omelet, for example.
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_01: So therefore, your kid watches you, then you allow your kid to cut the onions, you allow your kid to perhaps break the eggs, they'll break four or five eggs and they'll mess it up and the shell will be, but they'll keep on getting better.
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_01: You will tell your kid that I have enough confidence that you can learn the skill.
• 1:13:46
  SPEAKER_01: I learned it, you can do it.
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_01: So your kid will watch you at some point.
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_01: You'll then allow the kid, you'll give increasing risk to answer your question.
• 1:13:52
  SPEAKER_01: At some point, you will know when to give your kid that additional responsibility.
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_01: You won't allow a three-year-old to cut the onions because the three-year-old doesn't know how to handle a knife.
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_01: But you will allow the three-year-old perhaps to add the yolk after you've broken the egg.
• 1:14:06
  SPEAKER_01: You have enough intuitive common sense to know what a kid is able to do and not able to do, and gradually over time, you'll allow the kid to maybe cook his own omelette, and maybe at some time you'll allow the kid to cook an omelet and feed you as well.
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_01: And if that's not good, that's instant feedback.
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, you know, you put too much salt or that wasn't good enough, or whatever else it is.
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Use that as a metaphor.
• 1:14:27
  SPEAKER_01: How is that any different?
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_01: You taught your kid how to cook an omelet, you're teaching your kid all these skills all the time.
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Some of these kids' skills your kid picked up just by himself, just by watching you.
• 1:14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Not you didn't even consciously need to teach your kid how to walk, for example.
• 1:14:43
  SPEAKER_01: But that's the point.
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Once you take that approach, that all kids are wired to learn because that's what they need to do in order to survive, then a lot of these things fall into place.
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Then your kid doesn't need a certificate, you know, was able to cook an omelette.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_01: The very fact that you ate an omelet your kid cooked, and you're allowing your kid to continue cooking omelets for you, means that's a skill he's already mastered.
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's an informal skill.
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_01: You've not given a certificate.
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_01: But that's where some of these things are happening automatically, even online.
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of workers are understanding the importance of micro-certification, what are called badges.
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know whether you were ever a Boy Scout, for example, but you would get badges for everything.
• 1:15:21
  SPEAKER_01: You would so you would break down whatever the scout needed to learn in, let's say, 30 skills: how to tie a knot, how to swim, how to set up a tent, how to set up a campfire.
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And you didn't have to learn everything at one time.
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, there were young kids who learned six things at one time and got six badges, and there were some kids who never got even one badge, and that was fine.
• 1:15:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is a much more replicable model.
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you need to keep on reminding parents these are real life things, this is what actually happens.
• 1:15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Knowledge and learning is never linear, it's not like seven standard, then eight standard, then nine standard.
• 1:15:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's a completely broken system.
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's random, it goes all over the place.
• 1:16:01
  SPEAKER_01: You need to be able to give parents, like you keep on saying, the courage and the confidence that their kids will turn out alright in spite of going to school.
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm using that word very deliberately.
• 1:16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Most of us turned out alright in spite of going to school.
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Schooling taught us so many bad habits, it's not even funny.
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_01: And now we had to unlearn a lot of these bad habits, and some of us have been fortunate and we've been able to do that.
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then hopefully we've been able to learn some of these good habits.
• 1:16:31
  SPEAKER_01: But honestly, the principles aren't complicated, they aren't difficult.
• 1:16:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's very simple.
• 1:16:36
  SPEAKER_01: You put your student first, and if everything is student-directed and student-centered, a lot of the things I'm describing, respect for the student, allowing the student to leave, and you know what, he may just want to read a paragraph, and that's fine, and then he may want to do something else.
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Let him it's far better that he does stuff which he enjoys, finds interesting, is engaged with rather than forcing her to do things which she doesn't want to do because that's a gap.
• 1:17:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people talk about, but butcha discipline caste is seek.
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_01: If your idea of discipline is enforced discipline, then I'm sitting in the room and that's why the kid is doing the homework.
• 1:17:12
  SPEAKER_01: What's going to happen when you leave the room?
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_01: True.
• 1:17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Enforced discipline is not self-discipline.
• 1:17:18
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're not sure that your kid is able to discipline himself enough to be able to study for himself when you're not in the room, then you've not done a good job.
• 1:17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Just accept that.
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_01: And there's lots of things you need to do in order to do that good job.
• 1:17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Parents take so much pride in being taskmasters.
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Say, I make sure I sit with my kid and he does his exam.
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_01: What lesson are you sending your kid?
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Within your absence, that homework is not going to get done.
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know that's completely, completely wrong.
• 1:17:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I think a lot of us need to introspect a little bit and allow our kids.
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, what mistakes are they gonna make?
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_01: And allow them to make the mistakes when they're young and allow them to suffer the consequences.
• 1:17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Don't let him do his homework today.
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_01: What the world's not gonna end.
• 1:18:01
  SPEAKER_01: He'll get punished in school, he'll get punished two times, he'll get punished three times.
• 1:18:05
  SPEAKER_01: The fourth time, tube like chamkay.
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_01: If I don't do my homework, I'm gonna get punished, I'm gonna look like an idiot, and I'm not gonna be able to play whatever else the consequences are.
• 1:18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And he'll automatically learn for himself, but allow him to learn for himself.
• 1:18:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's all I'm saying.
• 1:18:21
  SPEAKER_03: I I just want to throw out one idea and I want to take your temperature on what you actually feel about it.
• 1:18:26
  SPEAKER_03: One of the things that generally enrages me about education is uh it's almost like it's put large swaths of people, millions of young kids on one timetable.
• 1:18:38
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, and that is deeply troubling because forget the fact that there is there are health issues, there are self-esteem issues, there are uh knowledge acquisition issues.
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_03: Let's park all that for a second.
• 1:18:50
  SPEAKER_03: You have built this entire mimetic machine where every child and every parent and every administrator sequentially believes that by 18 you should be done with uh 12th, by 24 you should be done with your by 22, you should be done with your uh final year of your undergrad, by 24 you should be done with your MBA, by 28 you should be married, by 30 you should be a parent, and it's so deeply ingrained, and nobody talks about it.
• 1:19:20
  SPEAKER_03: So, what are your thoughts on whether we are robbing kids of their ability to control their own time from a lifetime perspective and not from an hours and seconds perspective?
• 1:19:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're completely spot on, and that's why if you give kids the freedom when they're young to do what they want, their ability to take advantage of this freedom when they become older is automatically engraved.
• 1:19:44
  SPEAKER_01: So at least the kids were not going to take orders from someone just because someone tells them.
• 1:19:48
  SPEAKER_01: They will reason first principles.
• 1:19:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's fine, that might work for you, but you know what, it doesn't work for me.
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_01: You have enough confidence to be able to say, I think that's great, but you know what, I will master the subject, but I will master it on my own terms.
• 1:20:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't want to read this particular textbook, but I'd rather watch these four videos on YouTube because that's my preferred learning style.
• 1:20:08
  SPEAKER_01: So again, I think it all boils down to the fact that if we put the student at the center of all our attention, our focus, I think a lot of these things will automatically fall into place.
• 1:20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Partly we are burdening our kids with our unfulfilled ambitions.
• 1:20:25
  SPEAKER_01: We're partly burning our kids with all our unfulfilled dreams.
• 1:20:29
  SPEAKER_01: We think that just because we've given birth to our kids, because we are older than our kids, we know what's right for them.
• 1:20:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that in itself is so completely broken.
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I think unless we start with a certain degree of intellectual humility, that we cannot be preparing our kids for a future 10 years down the road where mostly we won't be around.
• 1:20:48
  SPEAKER_01: And the world will look very different from what it is today.
• 1:20:51
  SPEAKER_01: And if we keep on spoon feeding them, we will actually clip their wings and they'll never be able to fend for themselves.
• 1:20:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's something which it's definitely possible for us to start off with.
• 1:21:02
  SPEAKER_01: The answers are already in the kid.
• 1:21:05
  SPEAKER_01: We need to help the kid find these answers for themselves rather than teach the kid what we think the kid needs to know.
• 1:21:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it needs a certain mindset change.
• 1:21:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when you allow your kid to succeed in certain areas, whatever that area may be, your kid has become a tennis star, I think that's perfect.
• 1:21:25
  SPEAKER_01: Your kid has become a chess champion, that's perfect.
• 1:21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Those are transferable skills.
• 1:21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Not that you can transfer your ability to play chess on a football field, but you can transfer your ability about how you learn to play chess to anything else which is going to come your way.
• 1:21:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, what did you do?
• 1:21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you decided to hang out with friends, you played a number of chess games, you watched a number of videos, you read a number of books, whatever worked for you.
• 1:21:50
  SPEAKER_01: There are multiple different learning pathways.
• 1:21:53
  SPEAKER_01: We need to respect students that they will be able to find the pathway if we allow them the freedom and the ability to be able to explore them.
• 1:22:01
  SPEAKER_01: One size cannot possibly fit all.
• 1:22:04
  SPEAKER_01: How could that possibly work?
• 1:22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the great thing about the internet.
• 1:22:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's just so much, there's a wealth of resources.
• 1:22:10
  SPEAKER_01: We need to be able to tell our kids, you know, figure out your resources for yourself.
• 1:22:14
  SPEAKER_01: If you get stuck, we're there to be able to help you.
• 1:22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Not that we will teach you, we will help you find additional resources, perhaps because you didn't find them.
• 1:22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that additional resource could be another website, it could be another human being, it could be another student who's also on that learning pathway but is two years ahead of you.
• 1:22:33
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know the answers to some of those questions.
• 1:22:35
  SPEAKER_01: But we will help you figure that out.
• 1:22:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think if you can encourage that kid to have that can-do attitude, I can't figure out anything for myself, whether it's addition, subtraction, geometry, learning history or whatever else, your kid's life is sorted, honestly.
• 1:22:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's far more valuable than uh, you know, teaching a kid a curriculum or a syllabus or whatever else.
• 1:22:58
  SPEAKER_01: But to your point, that needs to be engraved at a much younger age.
• 1:23:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because by the time kids have passed out or gone to school, they're so used to being spoon-fed, either by a class is already done or a tuition teacher, whatever.
• 1:23:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying the damage can't be undone, but you know, it takes one year to undo 12 years of damage which schooling has done, and then perhaps they can then move on.
• 1:23:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the sooner you nip that problem in the butt, so much easier.
• 1:23:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think everything is repairable.
• 1:23:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think anything is unpairable.
• 1:23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:23:28
  SPEAKER_01: You need to give them little areas in which they can succeed when they start getting that sense of empowerment.
• 1:23:34
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, you know what?
• 1:23:35
  SPEAKER_01: I figured this out for myself.
• 1:23:37
  SPEAKER_01: If I could figure this out, I can figure out the next thing, and I can figure out the next thing.
• 1:23:41
  SPEAKER_01: And if you take the approach that everything is figured outable, you're smart enough to figure everything out.
• 1:23:46
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can't understand anything your teacher's saying, it's because that teacher is an idiot, not because there's anything wrong with you.
• 1:23:53
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll help you find another teacher.
• 1:23:55
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe that other teacher will be a real life teacher in another school, maybe that other teacher will be an uncle, maybe that other teacher will be another student who's two years ahead of you, maybe that other teacher will be a book or a video or whatever else.
• 1:24:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that.
• 1:24:09
  SPEAKER_01: But we'll help you figure that out.
• 1:24:11
  SPEAKER_01: You're smart enough to figure out stuff for yourself.
• 1:24:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think if you give kids that particular attitude, they'll do fine.
• 1:24:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, uh, so doctor, I have uh one question, which is when you break down your society, uh, you know, uh, you know, if you look at it as a pyramid, okay.
• 1:24:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, what you have been talking all along is really the you know, I call it the bottom of the pyramid, which is the kids who you need to change, and that takes a generational change to uh happen, right?
• 1:24:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I believe there is a here and now problem, okay, where there are you know people who are parents today who are at jobs, okay, who are you know who have who cannot learn because they have been trained in a certain way, okay.
• 1:24:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, then there is this biggest problem of uh you know technology changes, skill changes, unable to adapt.
• 1:25:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe there is a very, very large societal problem that's staring at our face in the what I call as the fat middle, right?
• 1:25:15
  SPEAKER_00: So when I look at you know people in the in the middle age, okay, I'm neither able to uh you know be a master at what I uh what I uh what I have uh done in the past, uh I'm kind of chugging along, okay.
• 1:25:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm losing my job, okay, and I'm actually then creating the problem for the next generation.
• 1:25:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so how do you think I don't I don't see many people solving this problem because either they say, you know, I'm actually looking at elder care, I'm looking at kids, but here is this middle that's actually creating problem for both ends of the society, right?
• 1:25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because actually there are a million IT professionals, okay, who probably uh you know never were fired in their life, they did not have the mental tenacity to ever think that you know uh their jobs will constantly give them uh you know uh you know uh incremental uh appraisals year after year, and suddenly you are realizing that oh, I don't even have a job now, and actually you are not even competent to have that job in the first place because you were overpaid anyway, okay.
• 1:26:23
  SPEAKER_00: So the mental tenacity is actually something that I'm missing that is missing, the competency is missing, and they have never learned, and therefore that's a huge problem that we are facing.
• 1:26:33
  SPEAKER_00: And is there a way to address this from a you know education point of view, from a retraining point of view, from a reskilling point of view, and is that something that a social enterprise needs to look at?
• 1:26:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think great question.
• 1:26:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I'm a big believer in the power of positive reinforcement, which means if you help people to succeed, if you give them small wins, those small wins will gradually become big wins over a period of time.
• 1:27:01
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of telling people, you know, this is what you need to master, you need to start off with where they are, and I think that's the beauty about, let's say, computer-based learning, because it doesn't assume anything, it doesn't put 50 people in a classroom and they know that not everyone's going to be able to learn at the same pace.
• 1:27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone is a different kind of learner.
• 1:27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Some of us are visual learners, some of us are auditory, some of us are kinesthetic, whatever else it is.
• 1:27:25
  SPEAKER_01: The beauty about technology is it allows us to adapt the learning style to what the learner wants to learn.
• 1:27:32
  SPEAKER_01: You're not all forced going to be able to do one thing in a particular way.
• 1:27:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's got to be more a sense of you've already succeeded in so many things.
• 1:27:41
  SPEAKER_01: You can continue succeeding in so many other things.
• 1:27:44
  SPEAKER_01: If we take that can do approach, if we change the instead of, I think a big problem is our society is much better at creating losers than at creating winners.
• 1:27:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's part of the problem.
• 1:27:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that's part of the problem the moment you have a pyramid kind of system, which actually Makes no sense.
• 1:28:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because then, by definition, you're consigning people.
• 1:28:04
  SPEAKER_01: If nothing else, forget about how the rest of the world sees them.
• 1:28:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that's important.
• 1:28:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's how they see themselves.
• 1:28:10
  SPEAKER_01: And if you perceive yourself as a loser, I think it's very hard for you to make anything out of your life.
• 1:28:16
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, you need small wins.
• 1:28:18
  SPEAKER_01: You need to be able to show them, you know, of course you can do this.
• 1:28:21
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to master all of it at one shot.
• 1:28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Do a little bit, that'll work.
• 1:28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Do a little bit more.
• 1:28:26
  SPEAKER_01: And gradually, I think as your self-confidence increases.
• 1:28:30
  SPEAKER_01: And the reality is all of us are learners and all of us are teachers.
• 1:28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Your kid is teaching you all the time.
• 1:28:37
  SPEAKER_01: If nothing else, your teachers your kid is teaching you patience about what to do when your kid refuses to eat, or what to do when your kid wakes up at three o'clock in the morning and refuses to go back to sleep.
• 1:28:48
  SPEAKER_01: So all of us are students, all of us are teachers, and I think if we learn to respect each other, there's something to be learned from everyone.
• 1:28:56
  SPEAKER_01: Learning doesn't occur just in a classroom set.
• 1:28:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really the beauty about the internet, is that you're no longer restricted to whatever your teacher chooses to teach you.
• 1:29:06
  SPEAKER_01: You can find the world's best teachers online, you can learn in whatever you want to.
• 1:29:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I honestly think that's really the magic.
• 1:29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Which means if you then have this new generation of students who are self-learners, who've learned for themselves.
• 1:29:19
  SPEAKER_01: What's the biggest problem in school today?
• 1:29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone is passive.
• 1:29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Is this going to come for the exam?
• 1:29:26
  SPEAKER_01: If it's not going to come for the exam, then why do I need to know?
• 1:29:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not going to study that.
• 1:29:30
  SPEAKER_01: If it's going to come for the exam, then let me look at the last 10 years exam papers.
• 1:29:35
  SPEAKER_01: And if I can crack these, then I know I'm going to do well in an exam.
• 1:29:38
  SPEAKER_01: All of which is fine.
• 1:29:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a very clever way of gaming the system.
• 1:29:41
  SPEAKER_01: And you should game the system.
• 1:29:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's a stupid system.
• 1:29:44
  SPEAKER_01: It deserves to be game because all you want to do is to get more marks.
• 1:29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead and do that.
• 1:29:48
  SPEAKER_01: But then also learn how to learn.
• 1:29:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's often a skill which is not being taught very well.
• 1:29:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's perfectly okay.
• 1:29:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's very free-flowing, it's very haphazard, it's very random.
• 1:30:00
  SPEAKER_01: There is no royal road to learning.
• 1:30:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you go down one path, you go down a second path, you learn from a book, you learn from a video, you learn from a friend, you learn from a bad experience in life.
• 1:30:10
  SPEAKER_01: All of this is actually just part of a learning.
• 1:30:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it makes no sense that we silo it.
• 1:30:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if you then give kids that confidence that you're capable of learning anything and everything, you've already learned so much.
• 1:30:23
  SPEAKER_01: And there is nothing which you're not, if you can give kids that confidence, what does our exam system do?
• 1:30:28
  SPEAKER_01: It creates losers.
• 1:30:30
  SPEAKER_01: It effectively tells someone, you know, only one person can come first, and all the other 99 are never going to be able to come first.
• 1:30:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's such a broken system.
• 1:30:38
  SPEAKER_01: You need to be able to change that around.
• 1:30:40
  SPEAKER_01: You need to be able to say, you know what, this is what we needed to test you on.
• 1:30:43
  SPEAKER_01: And you managed to do it.
• 1:30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Congratulations.
• 1:30:46
  SPEAKER_01: And there's lots more which you can do, and you can define, and that's the great thing about computer technology.
• 1:30:52
  SPEAKER_01: You can define learning pathways which are customized for each individual kid, each individual adult, each individual, whoever wants to be able to learn some of that stuff.
• 1:31:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't think we need to operate from a position of constraints anymore.
• 1:31:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think we need to operate from a position of you want to learn this, there is no shortage of stuff you can learn from.
• 1:31:11
  SPEAKER_01: You can start your learning journey by doing this, your next steps are this, your next steps are that, and then follow it.
• 1:31:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you get bored, get off that learning pathway.
• 1:31:20
  SPEAKER_01: If it's not fascinating or interesting, maybe come back to it two years from now.
• 1:31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe just leave it and learn something else.
• 1:31:26
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever you've learned will never get wasted.
• 1:31:29
  SPEAKER_01: Trust me about this.
• 1:31:31
  SPEAKER_01: But you need to carve out your own path.
• 1:31:33
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, if you're not interested in learning something, you'll never do a good job learning it.
• 1:31:37
  SPEAKER_01: No matter what's someone will force you, maybe you'll pass the exam, maybe you'll still get that A grade, but that's not stuff which is you know organically going to stick.
• 1:31:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what we really need to create are self-directed learners, learners who have the confidence in their learning skills, learners who have the confidence in being able to find the teachers.
• 1:31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Now, those teachers could be in the real world, those teachers could be online, those teachers could be your peers.
• 1:32:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's happening all the time.
• 1:32:04
  SPEAKER_01: All of us are wired to learn.
• 1:32:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's the way your brain is designed, very honestly.
• 1:32:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, uh doctor, what does uh success mean to you?
• 1:32:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think success starts from contentment.
• 1:32:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if you use someone else's yardstick to measure success, you're always going to be unhappy.
• 1:32:21
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you're happy with yourself, if it's an internal yardstick which you're using for measuring success, no one else in the world can take that away from you.
• 1:32:30
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you know you're starving on the streets, and sometimes you know you're gonna be ups in life, they're gonna be downs in life.
• 1:32:36
  SPEAKER_01: But if your self-esteem is remained intact, I think you'll be fine.
• 1:32:41
  SPEAKER_03: My next question is what are some of the books that have influenced you the most over the course of your life?
• 1:32:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that answer changes every two months, honestly, literally.
• 1:32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but that's the whole point.
• 1:32:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a book which influenced me when I was six years old.
• 1:32:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's very different from a book which is gonna influence me six when I'm 60.
• 1:32:59
  SPEAKER_01: And quite honestly, even if I read that same book two years from now, that book has changed because I have changed.
• 1:33:06
  SPEAKER_01: So honestly, I'm not and you know, I'm not gonna say this is it.
• 1:33:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, there are lots of books which have had an influence.
• 1:33:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I love books like Surely You're Joking, Mr.
• 1:33:15
  SPEAKER_01: Feynman.
• 1:33:15
  SPEAKER_01: In one sense, you know, it's biographical.
• 1:33:18
  SPEAKER_01: I love the Gita, for example, because every time you read it, there is something else.
• 1:33:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think the trick is how do you apply whichever book you're reading and learning from to whatever problem you're facing?
• 1:33:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the great thing about it.
• 1:33:31
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes you revisit a book, say, you know what?
• 1:33:34
  SPEAKER_01: I read this book two years ago, but how did I miss that particular lesson?
• 1:33:37
  SPEAKER_01: Or how did I overlook that paragraph?
• 1:33:40
  SPEAKER_01: So the reality is a book has to talk to you, and that book will talk to you depending on what position you are in life.
• 1:33:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that answer is going to be very different every six months, very honestly.
• 1:33:51
  SPEAKER_00: What's uh, you know, you you would have met a lot of people, uh, you know, you would have met a lot of uh, you know, entrepreneurs, your experience is uh extremely uh you know vast.
• 1:34:02
  SPEAKER_00: What is that one piece of advice uh which uh you got, which you remember a lot or which you value?
• 1:34:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of it was the attitude my parents gave me that you know there is nothing in this life which you can't do.
• 1:34:18
  SPEAKER_01: So don't underestimate yourself, don't assume that some things are beyond your you may not want to do them, you may not be physically well equipped to do certain things, some things may not interest you, and that's fine.
• 1:34:30
  SPEAKER_01: But if you find something which is of interest to you, something which challenges you, there is nothing in this world which you can't do.
• 1:34:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I just love that can-do approach.
• 1:34:39
  SPEAKER_01: So they would make sure there were enough resources available to allow you to be explored, whatever which is of interest.
• 1:34:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the great thing today, I mean, it was a little harder when I was a kid simply because India was a developing country, didn't have the internet.
• 1:34:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you needed to get a particular book, it would take forever and ever.
• 1:34:56
  SPEAKER_01: There were great libraries like the USIS and the British Council and stuff, but you still had only a fraction which was available.
• 1:35:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think in this day and age, often, you know, I think that's the great thing about being in India.
• 1:35:07
  SPEAKER_01: You have access to anything you want, wherever you want it.
• 1:35:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I love about the internet.
• 1:35:12
  SPEAKER_01: There is nothing which you can't learn if that's what you really want to do.
• 1:35:17
  SPEAKER_03: If you could invite four guests for a dream dinner, who would they be and why?
• 1:35:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I I guess you're allowing me to choose guests from you know through the centuries or whatever else.
• 1:35:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's an interesting question.
• 1:35:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I would, for example, uh there are people I would kind of basically break it up into perhaps someone who's a philosopher, someone who was a uh, you know, a great doctor, like Sir William Osler, for example, and then invite all of them around the dining room table and then see what kind of conversations they had.
• 1:35:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's uh, and I think quite honestly, maybe the answer to that question would also change if you ask me that same question uh, you know, two years from now.
• 1:36:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, would it be Adi Shankar this particular year?
• 1:36:05
  SPEAKER_01: Would it be someone else next possible year?
• 1:36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, I don't know.
• 1:36:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the whole point is you can actually have those conversations, even if it's not around the dining room table, by actually reading the books which some of these people left behind and which they wrote.
• 1:36:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say I find it actually a lot easier to absorb some of whatever lessons which they had by reading a book because I can do it at my own pace, I can puzzle over it, I can muddle over it, I can read another book which reinforces some of that which is being done.
• 1:36:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, does that answer some of your question at least?
• 1:36:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 1:36:40
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 1:36:41
  SPEAKER_03: If we had to offer three to four pieces of advice for somebody entering university today, what would it be?
• 1:36:50
  SPEAKER_01: I would honestly say there is nothing which you can't do if you decide that's what you want to do.
• 1:36:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the most important thing is follow your heart.
• 1:36:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if you follow your heart, you will find enough resources, both intellectual resources and real-world resources, to be able to make that come true.
• 1:37:08
  SPEAKER_01: So don't shortchange yourself.
• 1:37:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think there's one group of people who will always find excuses.
• 1:37:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not rich enough, I don't know enough English, my parents aren't privileged enough, so and so, and then those are the kind of people who never accomplish much.
• 1:37:21
  SPEAKER_01: But there are the other kind of people who have that can do, will do.
• 1:37:24
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, you know, I can do anything which is available.
• 1:37:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think perhaps that's some of the magic of the internet, that so many of these resources are available.
• 1:37:33
  SPEAKER_01: But you need to be able to have the courage to get out of your sweet spot, to be able to go up to strangers, to be able to email strangers.
• 1:37:41
  SPEAKER_01: What's the worst thing which will happen?
• 1:37:42
  SPEAKER_01: They won't reply to your email.
• 1:37:44
  SPEAKER_01: What's the worst thing which will happen?
• 1:37:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, maybe they won't answer you or they'll be rude.
• 1:37:48
  SPEAKER_01: But the more you put yourself out, the more your ability to be able to strengthen your confidence levels.
• 1:37:54
  SPEAKER_01: And unless you have the courage to be able to do that, I think it's just going to be hard for you to be able to acquire that courage.
• 1:38:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the great thing about being young is you're pretty shameless.
• 1:38:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, you really don't care when people insult you or whatever else.
• 1:38:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you should be okay with that.
• 1:38:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then that actually just increases your confidence levels.
• 1:38:13
  SPEAKER_01: And if someone isn't responsing, the right thing is the loss is theirs.
• 1:38:17
  SPEAKER_01: They lost an opportunity to learn from me.
• 1:38:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much I could have taught them.
• 1:38:21
  SPEAKER_01: And never mind if he's not smart enough to be able to learn from me, I'll find someone else who will teach me, whom I will then be able to teach afterwards.
• 1:38:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you really approach should be there is nothing which I can't do.
• 1:38:34
  SPEAKER_01: And the reality is often there is nothing which you can't do.
• 1:38:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure we'll all have physical limitations.
• 1:38:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure we'll all have certain limitations.
• 1:38:41
  SPEAKER_01: But I think if you take the approach that everything is teachable and everything is learnable, life is a lot more fun.
• 1:38:47
  SPEAKER_00: What's one thing that uh you believe in, which others don't agree with you?
• 1:38:53
  SPEAKER_01: I believe that everyone can learn everything.
• 1:38:56
  SPEAKER_01: Especially if it's of interest to them.
• 1:38:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's where they need to start off with.
• 1:39:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think forcing someone who doesn't like languages to then learn a language is not going to make any sense.
• 1:39:07
  SPEAKER_01: But you need to help him identify what his sweet spot is, what makes him want to get up in the morning, what energizes him, what gives him a kick.
• 1:39:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it need not be anything academic necessarily, and it doesn't really matter, it's a big world out there.
• 1:39:21
  SPEAKER_01: And often people who have extracurricular skills will often end up doing much well than people who have a standard set of academic skills.
• 1:39:29
  SPEAKER_01: Allow people to play to their strengths, so help them to find out what their strengths are, and their strengths will change and their interests will change, and that's absolutely fine.
• 1:39:38
  SPEAKER_01: And none of this ever gets wasted, trust me.
• 1:39:42
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of it will then actually start getting absorbed and it'll help you make a better person, it'll help you make a different person, and then at some point, all these skills will meld.
• 1:39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Now, whether that will necessarily meld into an increased income, I can't say, and it doesn't really matter because that's not what your endpoints should necessarily be.
• 1:40:01
  SPEAKER_03: So, Doctor, my final question to you is uh we've we've had the privilege of spending last 90 hundred minutes with you, and uh we would like to know that uh based on a conversation that you had, if there is somebody that you recommend that we should get in touch with to explore more ideas similar to the ones that we've touched upon today, uh, who would that person be?
• 1:40:22
  SPEAKER_03: Or someone you recommend?
• 1:40:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I have a lot of admiration for entrepreneurs, because I think entrepreneurs have the guts and the courage to take on challenges which other people don't have the courage to do, and you know, they understand that there's a high risk of failure, that things may work out, uh, things may not work out, and that's something which I would definitely have a lot of admiration for.
• 1:40:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I think if you're willing to spend time on talking to some of these and identifying uh, you know, some of the journeys which they have, and I think we use a very limited metric when we say this guy was a successful entrepreneur or you know, a lot of these people may not achieve material success, a lot of their startups perhaps may not achieve anything in the sense of you know uh making millions or whatever else.
• 1:41:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I think if we respect that fact that uh, you know, this is what he set out to do, he may not actually ever reach that particular goal.
• 1:41:27
  SPEAKER_01: But if that's what he wanted to do, and that's one of the reasons why I have a lot of admiration for entrepreneurs, because they want to be able to accomplish things which other people think are unreasonable goals.
• 1:41:38
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and that's one of the reasons why I actually love being an angel investor.
• 1:41:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because you come across people who are meeting challenges which other people think are not answerable.
• 1:41:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that really is something which uh excites me, empowers me, that you know, you have that can-do attitude which the rest of the world perhaps doesn't have.
• 1:42:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's something which uh, you know, if these people are willing to take on challenges which the rest of the world isn't willing to take on, I think that's something which really excites me.
• 1:42:11
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, I have a lot of regard for them where they're basically saying, these are things which other people aren't willing to be able to do.
• 1:42:19
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what, I'm willing to be able to tackle this.
• 1:42:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm willing to be able to say, hey, it doesn't matter to me if the rest of the world thinks this is something which can't be done.
• 1:42:27
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what, I think I can possibly do it.
• 1:42:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the stuff which excites me, quite honestly.
• 1:42:33
  SPEAKER_01: And to give you an example, one of the founders whom I have a lot of belief in is someone who runs a company which actually makes tinkering kits for kids.
• 1:42:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and this is something which actually gives me a lot of pleasure, just engaging with him, being able to figure out what he's doing and why he is doing it.
• 1:42:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the name of this company is called Buy Box, and it's been a long journey.
• 1:42:56
  SPEAKER_01: And by you know, any tradition, uh you could say, okay, you know, where's the success?
• 1:43:01
  SPEAKER_01: But Sandeep is a person whom I really look up to because, irrespective of what the world says, he's remained true, he's stuck to his passion, he believes that it's something which can happen, which he will be able to make happen, and that's something which excites me.
• 1:43:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, his name is Sandeep Sanan.
• 1:43:19
  SPEAKER_01: He runs this company called Buy Box or B I B O X.
• 1:43:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was an acronym for Brain in a Box.
• 1:43:25
  SPEAKER_01: He believes in tinkering, he believes in you know, respecting kids, allowing them to do things which otherwise perhaps you know people would not be able to do.
• 1:43:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that's someone so you know, not a conventional success story.
• 1:43:37
  SPEAKER_01: If you measured in terms of how much money he has raised or whatever, but he's one of the people I have a lot of regards for.
• 1:43:44
  SPEAKER_03: Awesome.
• 1:43:45
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much, Doctor.
• 1:43:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, uh, thanks, Doctor.
• 1:43:49
  SPEAKER_00: It was uh fantastic.
• 1:43:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh one and a half hours, I must say.
• 1:43:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh okay, I wasn't I wasn't keeping time.
• 1:43:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry, I apologize.
• 1:43:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I'm just looking at the time now, and uh, you know, it's almost close to one and a half hours and more than one and a half hours.
• 1:44:04
  SPEAKER_01: You should you should take credit for asking good questions now because it's hard to give good answers if someone doesn't ask good questions.
• 1:44:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I really enjoy this.
• 1:44:12
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 1:44:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think it helps me to reflect a little bit, and I'm very, very hopeful about the future, very honestly.
• 1:44:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think India is in demographic sweet spot, and I think that demographic sweet spot can actually become a huge burden.
• 1:44:26
  SPEAKER_01: But if we can tap into that demographic sweet spot, and that's one of the things we're trying to do with whether you call it informal learning, whether you call it, you know, allowing kids to tinker, whether it's tinkering labs, whether it's somehow some of these experiments which we're trying to learn, where you know, give kids the tools and allow them to learn what they want.
• 1:44:46
  SPEAKER_01: Why should we be telling them what they should be learning?
• 1:44:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think if they have the tools, they'll be able to master the art of learning.
• 1:44:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if they can master the art of learning, they'll be sorted for the rest of their life.
• 1:44:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what my dream is in a little bit.
• 1:45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks a lot.
• 1:45:01
  SPEAKER_03: It was thank you so much.
• 1:45:02
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much, Doctor.
• 1:45:03
  SPEAKER_00: I loved everyone's rubber, it was a lovely conversation.
• 1:45:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks a lot.
• 1:45:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, great.
• 1:45:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, guys, for talking.
• 1:45:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to this episode.
• 1:45:14
  SPEAKER_00: For selected links and detailed show notes, visit www.contramines.com slash blog.
• 1:45:22
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• 1:45:34
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• 1:45:46
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening and stay safe.