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How to tackle the urgent need for gender balance: experiences from the built environment · Project Podcast

0:08
Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the childhood body for
0:12
the project profession. My name's Emma Devita, and I'm
0:15
the editor of Projects, APM's quarterly journal and your host.
0:19
With this podcast, I'm speaking to Francis Palmer, Chartered
0:23
Project Professional and Associate Director at Gleeds,
0:26
Dave Corbin, also a Chartered Project Professional, APM Fellow
0:30
and Head of Client Accounts at Gleeds, and leadership and
0:34
culture coach Anita Figura, who previously worked in
0:37
infrastructure project management.
0:39
Francis and Dave helped set up APM's Built Environment Interest
0:42
Network last year, with a special focus on diversity
0:45
inclusion. This week of International
0:48
Women's Day, I've invited them to explore how the sector can
0:51
become more diverse and inclusive, what actions really
0:54
work, and how change can be accelerated.
0:57
Because to be honest, when it comes to gender equality, change
1:00
in the workplace is glacial. A PwC report published in March
1:05
gave the UK its lowest ranking for workplace gender equality in
1:08
a decade. The gender pay gap could take
1:10
more than 30 years at its current place to close.
1:13
Things have to change, so listen on for an honest and
1:17
wide-ranging discussion with three professionals who want to
1:20
accelerate the pace of change, especially during a backlash
1:23
against diversity and inclusion. What can employers, managers and
1:27
individuals do about it? Francis is based in Peru and
1:31
just prior to our recording experienced a local earthquake,
1:35
so do enjoy our earth shattering podcast.
1:46
Welcome everyone to the APM Podcast.
1:48
It's lovely to have you here. Francis, do you want to tell us
1:51
a bit about yourself and your interest in the Built
1:54
Environment Interest Network? Hi everybody, my name is Francis
1:59
Palmer and I work for Gleed as an Associate Director of the
2:04
organisation. I used to work in the UK, but
2:08
now I'm actually based in Peru and head up a group called
2:13
International Women in Construction, which essentially
2:18
I'm interested in because I feel that it's really important to
2:22
hear the voice of women, showcase their achievements and
2:26
essentially engage in women as a diversity group within the
2:30
environment. Thank you, Anita.
2:33
Tell us a bit about yourself and your interests in this area.
2:37
I'm Anita Figura, I am a specialist in inclusion within
2:43
the built environment and I'm a leadership and culture coach
2:47
with a background in project management within the sector,
2:50
specifically railway infrastructure.
2:54
I'm really passionate about gender equity in the sector and
2:58
addressing the needs of all women so that our projects can
3:02
thrive. Thank you, Anita and Dave.
3:06
My name is Dave Corbyn, I work for Gleeds, I'm the head of
3:09
client accounts. I'm lucky enough to have worked
3:13
in a built environment for over 30 years now, which I think
3:16
officially makes me a dinosaur. And I've seen, I've seen lots of
3:21
different roles and facets of the industry, mostly of which
3:25
have been male dominated over the years.
3:28
It doesn't represent the communities we serve or the life
3:30
we live. So I'm really keen to see that
3:33
gender equality change. We're recording this close to
3:38
International Women's Day in March 2025, but there was a
3:42
report out this morning from PwC, which is a bit depressing
3:47
about the state of gender equality in the UK at the
3:50
moment. It's not really accelerating,
3:53
it's kind of stuck. And this is something that, you
3:55
know, we wanted to cover in this podcast, so we'll come on to
3:57
that later. But I think it'd be interesting
4:01
to get an overview of how the built environment sector looks
4:04
when it comes to women and minorities as well.
4:07
So, Dave, do you want to give us a bit of background?
4:12
I think it's still quite a traditional sector.
4:15
Historically it's one that's been quite confrontational and I
4:18
and I wonder if that's why in as time gone by, it was more of a,
4:22
a male dominated career choice. You know, that table Shrump in
4:27
size 14 boots man wins the day. So I think, I think it's
4:33
improving in the project management environment.
4:35
But sadly, I think many clients still expect that kind of
4:39
confident, extroverted dominant personality in my room.
4:42
And and that's what's, that's what, that's what's going to
4:44
change. Thank you.
4:46
Fran. Would you agree with that?
4:48
Yeah. And I think, well, for me it's
4:52
interesting because being out here in Peru, I get to see a
4:55
developing country and how things might be slightly
4:58
different from the UK somewhere else.
5:02
And I think the UK is held off on quite a pedestal about its
5:07
inclusion on the diversity policies that there are a higher
5:11
percentage of women within the built environment, for example.
5:15
So it's about 15% I believe in the UK at the moment, but in
5:19
Peru it's around 7. And I think there's a strong
5:23
perception that if somebody went from Peru and worked in the UK,
5:27
they would feel totally included and and it's a really diverse
5:31
industry to be into. But having worked there and only
5:34
recently going through in the last sort of four years, I know
5:39
that that's not really the case and that there's still a lot of
5:42
work to be done to ensure that people genuinely.
5:47
And the way I, the reason I kind of emphasise genuinely is
5:51
because a lot of people focus on statistics.
5:53
And yes, there are improvements. Yes, there are more female roles
5:57
within the industry and potentially are sort of driving
6:00
away into those more senior roles.
6:02
But I would say that there's still a sentiment of it being a
6:07
white male industry. And if you project yourself as a
6:12
white male, you are forceful in the way that you engage in the
6:17
construction community, in the building environment, then
6:20
you're going to succeed. And I don't think there's been a
6:22
lot of progress for the 20 years that I've been in industry to,
6:27
to change that. You're working on actual
6:30
projects, you're at the coalface of projects.
6:32
When you go out, you are in Peru, it's not the UK, so it's
6:35
different. But do you see many other women
6:40
when you go out on projects? Do you have any colleagues who
6:43
are female? Or do you feel very on your own
6:47
out there as a woman? There are a lot of people in
6:52
sort of the the structure that I work within.
6:55
We're working on large scale strategic infrastructure
6:59
programmes and actually on site. There are women on site, but
7:02
they're mainly in a kind of health and safety role.
7:05
They're not the site managers, they're not the decision makers.
7:10
And you do find that in the office as well.
7:13
There's a lot of architects, there's a lot of actually
7:16
interesting, the structural engineers, but they're very
7:21
office based and not in those senior roles.
7:25
And it's more that opinions don't get respected in the same
7:31
way being women in the industry here.
7:35
Have you experienced that first hand since you've been in Peru
7:39
or recently? How?
7:40
How do you handle it? I think that's an interesting
7:43
question because in some respects you kind of don't it's,
7:50
it's difficult to, if you're sitting in a room and it's quite
7:54
an intimate digging environment and you're putting your opinion
7:58
across and it's not getting heard, What, what can you do in
8:01
that situation? You kind of almost have to and
8:04
and yes, there is an opinion that you kind of could say
8:08
something, but really is that the right environment to do
8:12
that? Is that going to gain you more
8:15
respect in the long run? Or do you kind of just take it
8:18
on the tin, finish the meeting and and try and sort of see
8:23
where maybe sometimes you get self reflective of yourself?
8:27
Did I handle that in the right way?
8:29
Was maybe I didn't say something correct and that was the issue
8:32
because that's how it's actually coming across.
8:34
So it's, it's very difficult I think to address it, but it's
8:39
also very difficult to to change because the structures that are
8:45
in place encourages that sort of behaviour.
8:50
Anita, from your perspective, how does the built environment
8:53
sector look when it comes to but especially minorities?
8:56
Because I know that this is a strong area of research for you.
8:58
So tell us a bit about that. For the last year or so I've
9:02
been doing some research on the experiences of women in the
9:06
built environment and specifically those from
9:10
racialised groups, so across different ethnic diversities.
9:15
And that report's coming out, it's coming out this month.
9:19
But some of what we found is that experiences for women
9:23
across groups is challenging. So across groups, we're seeing
9:28
that women are impacted by toxic cultures, this idea of harmful
9:33
banter, and there's lots of things that are impacting women
9:36
holistically. But then in some areas, women
9:40
from, I'm going to talk about women from underrepresented
9:44
ethnicities, they are experiencing some of these
9:49
challenges even more greatly. So what we're seeing is actually
9:55
that toxic culture, women from those underrepresented
9:59
ethnicities were much more likely to experience the
10:03
cultures as being toxic. But something that we were
10:06
seeing as well was around well-being.
10:08
And you mentioned around this burden of what, what do we do in
10:12
that situation? And some of the, and, and again,
10:16
this was an issue that was impacting women across the
10:19
board, But we can see that you're having to deal with
10:22
microaggressions or these aggressions, these comments that
10:26
come at you, you're having to prove yourself.
10:29
You're dealing with sexism for some women that also dealing
10:34
with racism or other types of discrimination.
10:38
And then there's also like a, a burden or a responsibility for
10:43
these senior women in particular to try and make it better, not
10:46
just for themselves, but everybody else.
10:49
So this real burden of like responsibility was a, a real
10:54
strong theme that came up. So we're really seeing like a
10:57
well-being impact as well. So the research really is a call
11:00
to action for the industry. It's a call to action on how we
11:05
can raise the bar and particularly when it comes to
11:08
cultures, particularly what what we can do with our sphere of
11:11
influence as if we are leader leaders or project managers,
11:16
whether we're leading teams or organisations, how can we better
11:20
support women in our organisation?
11:22
And then for the women that feel are impacted by these issues.
11:27
It's also just to recognise that your experiences, you're not
11:31
alone and that it's OK to ask for help and support because the
11:37
environments aren't necessarily made for many of us.
11:40
We've spoken about how they're centred perhaps on on kind of
11:43
this idea of what leadership used to be and that being in the
11:48
mould of a certain type of white man.
11:52
I, I think it can be like the, a pressure in terms of women going
11:58
into more senior position and feeling that burden of, of
12:02
trying to represent women and, and trying to really, or any
12:06
diversity group to be honest and trying to really invoke change
12:11
and feeling that that's the responsibility that they have to
12:15
carry. But also I, I think generally as
12:19
you work your way up through the industry as well, you've been
12:23
going through this whole cycle of having to work harder to get
12:27
notice, having to project yourself in potentially a way
12:32
that doesn't feel as comfortable as you would like it to.
12:36
So almost sort of projecting a different sense of yourself
12:41
within your working environment, but also having really honestly
12:46
a sense of rejection constantly and that's going to affect your
12:51
mental health in quite serious ways.
12:53
So then when you're looking at going into into seeing a roles,
12:57
you're already exhausted. You've already gone through a
13:01
whole working life of kind of pushing yourself in, in a sense
13:07
that doesn't always feel comfortable.
13:10
Have you changed that? Are you more comfortable or
13:14
confident to to be more authentic to yourself and not
13:17
play into those stereotypes of how you should be or how you
13:21
feel you what you need to do to fit in?
13:25
I don't think you find myself now and in late years thinking
13:30
what do I actually think in this situation?
13:32
Not what do I want other people to think that I'm thinking or
13:36
what do I believe that they want to hear?
13:39
What do I actually feel? And sometimes I do almost see
13:43
this, but here we go again. So because I, I do feel more
13:49
confident to be able to put my voice and my opinions across.
13:53
And sometimes that might seem to be somebody that's constantly
13:59
trying to be outspoken and and be heard, but don't really see a
14:04
problem with that. He stays.
14:06
I mean, I've always stayed away from women in construction,
14:09
women in groups, because I almost felt like if I put myself
14:13
in that position, then it's all it's stepping out of that normal
14:19
characteristic of, Oh no, everybody should be able to
14:21
succeed in their own merit at that general perception of why
14:25
do we have to have these groups? If you're good at your job and
14:28
you are proactive and determined, then you're going to
14:31
succeed on. And, and I always sort of felt
14:35
like I had to believe that I, you know, I do believe that to a
14:40
degree. But if if you don't have an
14:43
equal stab at it, then you're not going to be able to
14:47
represent yourself in the same way, and you're not going to be
14:50
heard and you're not going to be treated as equal.
14:53
It's very established what needs to change, but what can we do to
14:58
breakthrough the barriers and to get change happening?
15:02
And I mean, I wanted to ask you what you feel the biggest
15:05
barriers are to a attracting more women to the sector and
15:08
then retaining them and getting them to more senior levels.
15:11
I think probably better to focus on retaining women.
15:16
Like what happens. You might start off feeling as
15:19
though you're not, there's no bias, you're treated absolutely
15:21
equally, but then something happens kind of mid career.
15:24
Is it when you have kids or just what happens?
15:27
Why do women leave at senior levels?
15:29
Be interested to get all of your perspectives on that.
15:34
I mean, who'd like to? Who'd like to start with that?
15:37
Some recent statistics show that women in the built environment
15:43
are, I think the stat was 45%, but there's a big proportion of
15:47
women leaving around the age of 34.
15:51
And so it does seem to be that mid career level.
15:55
And I think I think the industry we've done, we focus so much on
15:59
attracting women, which is important.
16:02
And yet if we don't address our cultures, then we are going to,
16:06
we lose women as fast as we attract women in.
16:09
So that has to be the focus. I think it's challenging.
16:13
I think you spoke about the the knock of the confidence.
16:15
And I think if we recognise that it's a cultural issue and it is
16:19
these sometimes small things but sometimes bigger things that are
16:23
impacting people's confidence, then it becomes internalised as
16:29
well as you recognising that there are barriers beyond your
16:34
control. But what I see is that people,
16:40
they might leave the sector or they might leave the job because
16:42
they feel actually exhausted by having to fight these barriers.
16:46
And they hold that experience with them wherever they go next
16:52
if they did leave. And then that impacts their
16:55
choices as well. Will they go for that promotion?
16:58
Will they go for a new opportunity because they're
17:01
tired, They're exhausted of it, having it having been a battle
17:05
for so long, and they're not necessarily being met by
17:09
support. But when we can find that
17:12
support, that's really important.
17:15
When people do raise it, well, that becomes a choice as well.
17:19
And like, is that a path worth pursuing?
17:23
Because what will be the repercussions if they do raise
17:25
it? And will they be believed?
17:28
Will that even be seen? Because some, a lot of this
17:31
stuff people might say, well, that's just a small thing or
17:34
you're overreacting. So you're not necessarily
17:39
knowing if you will be believed or or trusted in in your
17:43
experiences. And actually, it's a challenge
17:46
at a time, if you've had children, it's a challenge at a
17:50
time that you don't really want to face challenges because
17:52
you've got enough challenges in your life anyway.
17:54
You're having to go home and look after your children and
17:58
spend the whole weekend with them.
17:59
You're exhausted. You might not be getting any
18:01
sleep. You could actually still be
18:03
breastfeeding while you're working.
18:05
You know, there's so many different aspects that come into
18:08
that sense of exhaustion that, yeah, it's, it's difficult to
18:13
actually quantify the extent at which that exhaustion
18:18
materialises. But also, you know, there could
18:20
be conflicts with your husband at home because you've gone back
18:23
to work and then who's going to be looking after the children?
18:26
Are you then really going to want to say to him, oh, by the
18:29
way, I'm actually going to go for promotion now, and that
18:33
means that I won't be at home even more.
18:35
So we're going to have to find him some more support out there.
18:41
All those things that add up that probably just make you
18:43
think, you know what, I'm just going to stay where I am because
18:47
I know my job. I don't have to face any
18:49
different conflict than the ones that I'm already facing.
18:53
And I'm just going to, I'm just going to ride it out because I
18:56
don't have the mental capacity to try and add anything else to
19:01
to my life at the moment. That's interesting.
19:05
So because one of the problems or one of the issues when I've
19:08
spoken to women, my career in construction and they said that
19:13
their colleagues often when they went on maternity leave or
19:17
before, when they came back, assumed that they wouldn't want
19:21
to go for promotion, that they had different levels of
19:24
ambition. And actually for the couple of
19:26
women I spoke to, they were angry about that because why
19:31
make that assumption? It might be true, but why when
19:35
before you left for maternity leave, you've been included at a
19:38
very senior level, consulted and when you come back, it's almost
19:42
like you've dropped down to rungs and the assumption being
19:44
that you just don't have that level of ambition.
19:47
So it's, it's quite interesting. What do you think?
19:51
About that, I left my permanent role after having my child.
19:58
That was when I formally left my project management role and.
20:03
Actually, I found that my ambition came like hurtling back
20:07
actually, after a few years of career knocks that had made me
20:11
decide to take some sideways steps.
20:14
So I think you're absolutely right that it can be different
20:17
for different women. And then also, as Fran pointed
20:20
out, actually we all, for a lot of women, particularly if you're
20:22
in a heterosexual relationship, there might be imbalances that
20:27
you also have to consider and how that impacts your career.
20:30
For my experience, I was ready to leave the organisation I was
20:35
at for personal reasons, for career development.
20:39
But the blocker that I found in finding the new role that I was
20:44
seeking was that cross section of flexibility meeting my
20:49
ambition. And at that point, I wasn't
20:51
really ready to or wanting to make that compromise.
20:55
So that was my personal reason for actually doing work
21:00
differently in the sector and leaving a permanent role.
21:03
And then as I started to reflect on my experiences, it was also
21:08
those those cultural aspects that were, were the challenges
21:13
that actually made me resistant to go back into an organisation
21:17
if I might face those again. I don't think it was conscious
21:22
at the time, but that was also a fact.
21:24
I want to find an organisation where I might not face some of
21:29
those experiences again. And when I speak to women, a
21:33
part of my research was speaking to women.
21:36
And they have, some of them have been put into, have been
21:41
recently in those situations where they feel pushed out of
21:45
the jobs that they're in because some of these workplace
21:47
discriminations or, or actually because they weren't supported
21:54
when they were going through challenging times that actually
21:58
that was the reason that they perhaps wouldn't want to stay
22:01
there. So yeah, there's lots of those
22:03
elements to think about how we support women in the workplace
22:07
that and as leaders, as organisational leaders.
22:12
It isn't A1 size fits all, but how can we look at what are the
22:16
barriers, How can we remove those barriers and meet the
22:21
needs of the women in front of us without making some of those
22:25
assumptions? We're kind of talking about the
22:28
individual and then that kind of weighed up against
22:31
organisational kind of responsibility in terms of
22:34
inclusion and diversity. And personally, on an individual
22:37
level, I have always felt like I've had the support of my
22:43
Direct Line manager, for example, or the person that is
22:49
encouraging me to kind of take the next step.
22:52
Or I've, I've never felt like actually on an individual level,
22:57
if I have said to somebody I really want to become a director
23:00
or I feel like I'm ready to head up the element of our
23:04
organisation. It's never been like, oh, well,
23:09
I don't, I don't think you're quite ready.
23:11
We'll have this conversation then it's time.
23:13
Facts. It's always been.
23:15
That's great, you know, but I'm really impressed that you feel
23:18
like that. I'm encouraging you.
23:21
I know that you're good at your work and you demonstrates to us
23:25
that you've had the ability, but let's see how that actually
23:28
works out in practise. And then and I've kind of gone,
23:31
oh, am I ready for this? Maybe I can make that decision
23:35
to, to kind of move forward and press ahead in my career.
23:39
And then when I've tried to kind of reach out to, to find some
23:42
support, maybe not by my life Direct Line manager, by somebody
23:46
else in the organisation or trying to discover what kind of
23:50
flexibility there is or looking to engage with a mentor or
23:55
something. I, I then come, that's when
23:59
those barriers come into effect for me.
24:02
It's more the organisational level that where is that support
24:05
then? But when I'm going, oh, is it my
24:08
time to make that career jump? Where is that lean into that I
24:14
can take from the organisation and to to feel like I'm
24:17
supported in taking that decision?
24:18
Because as much as my line director might feel like I'm a
24:22
good employee and they want to support me, is that actually a
24:26
reality? And and that's where I think on
24:30
an organisational level, I can come on Stack in terms of really
24:34
feeling like, yeah, you might have some the diversity
24:37
inclusion policies that represent some essence that the
24:42
organisation is thinking about it.
24:44
But what's actually been implemented?
24:46
What's tangible to know that you're really going to support
24:50
me if I take this decision? Yeah.
24:53
So it's like evidence that they're walking the talk, like
24:56
what you're actually doing about this.
24:58
But one thing I wanted to ask Dave is about the barriers, a
25:02
kind of later career, so reaching the very kind of top
25:05
echelons of organisations. And that is a problem for all
25:08
sectors everywhere, but particularly within kind of male
25:12
dominated sectors. I'd be interested to know what
25:14
your perspective on on all of that is.
25:18
Interesting, as I've been listening to, to, to this
25:21
conversation, it, it's made me realised that actually a lot of
25:26
the issues and and barriers that that have been shared today are,
25:32
are ones that men also face, but just nowhere near as magnified.
25:37
It sounds like, you know, not not being listened to is
25:40
something that that you face, especially when you're young in
25:43
your career and you're, you're looking to be to, to, to lead
25:47
A-Team feeling tired and exhausted when the when the
25:51
children were young. You know, I remember that and,
25:54
and I did hardly half of the stuff that my wife would have
25:57
been doing at the time. I remember coasting for a few
26:01
years because I was just not interested in progressing like,
26:04
but, but these were all these. So all these were things that I,
26:07
I kind of felt, but I never saw them as like things that were
26:12
going to stop me. And I think as I've been
26:14
reflecting, I think it's because everywhere I look, there's
26:17
sources of inspirational role models that help me go.
26:20
Yeah, but if you just get through this and that's where
26:22
you can get to. And I think if I was to try and
26:26
put my foot in the shoes of Bran or Anita or many others, you
26:29
know, you go, well, where are those sources of inspiration?
26:32
Where are those? And I think there are more and
26:34
more females now commanding better top jobs, but there's
26:40
still nowhere near enough. The one thing I'm absolutely
26:43
sure of is that there is a drop off in senior project manager
26:48
females moving into top jobs and and, and that that has to be
26:54
something that's that's looked at.
26:56
I think there's a problem at the beginning where maybe the school
26:59
careers advisors don't alert young females into the world of
27:04
the built environment and and construction and infrastructure.
27:08
I think there's an issue in the middle elements of career where
27:12
the environment that they're within isn't necessarily how it
27:17
should be. And that cultural piece.
27:19
And then, then you've got the, the real problem.
27:22
Well, a part of the problem, which is how do, how do we make
27:26
sure that senior women are given the opportunities that that men
27:29
are given? And I, I just, I just worry that
27:33
organisations that are predominantly men by run by men
27:37
or with a culture of being run by men are still making
27:41
decisions through the lens of a man and that, that, that's an
27:45
area that I think we need to look at to improve.
27:49
It's only interesting because you talk about education as a
27:51
tool for eradicating poverty, as a way of, you know, education is
27:58
of often deemed a solution, isn't it, to facing an issue
28:04
upfront sustainability, for example, if you teach people
28:08
that they should reuse and recycle, then more people are
28:11
going to do it, aren't they? And that might actually be true
28:15
for diversity. More education around
28:19
unconscious bias, more education about the fact that there are
28:23
different ways of presenting yourself.
28:25
And it's still being a correct way in terms of, I always go
28:29
back to, you know, in the school playground, men are often, our
28:33
boys are often trading football cards or talking about
28:37
statistics. You know, their focus of
28:40
interaction is quite transactional.
28:44
And that actually comes through in the workplace when you're
28:47
having a presentation, you like to focus on statistical
28:51
information, you know, peaks and troughs and trends.
28:55
And maybe you can still demonstrate a situation by
29:00
explaining it through storytelling, for example, which
29:04
is something that women do actually learn quite early on as
29:08
a as a girl when they're being very stereotypical here, you
29:13
know, creative play and that kind of thing.
29:15
So, but there are sort of skills that you learn from a very early
29:19
age that are ingrained and and brought into the work
29:22
environment that dictate how something is discussed and
29:27
talked about. Where actually if you educate
29:30
people in different ways of doing things, then that might
29:34
actually show that people come at things in a different way.
29:39
And actually, quite often that does surround action into
29:42
diversity groups where there might be cultural factors that
29:45
come into play into the way that you present something or the way
29:49
that you engage with people. I wanted to ask you is like, why
29:53
should men need to be included and involved when we talk about
29:57
gender equality work or when we talk about women at work?
30:01
Dave, why do men need to be involved in this?
30:04
Why is it not something that should just be syphoned off to
30:07
women's groups somewhere? And you know, it's for everyone
30:10
who works in an organisation. The reality is, is that we're
30:15
striving for greater equity in our industry and at present that
30:19
there are still more men than women, which means that many
30:22
leadership and decision making roles are held by men.
30:26
A while ago we had discussions around improving maternity
30:31
policies at Cleeds and at the time we had to prioritise
30:34
initiatives that are based on their immediate impact and and
30:37
maternity policy was not initially at the top of the
30:40
agenda, which was simply due to the number of people it would
30:44
affect compared to, to other areas we were addressing at the
30:48
time. That said, I'm I'm pleased to
30:50
share that Cleeds have recently introduced a much more modern
30:53
and inclusive parental leave policy, which is a fantastic
30:56
step forward, but it highlights the importance of having diverse
31:01
perspectives in leadership, different viewpoints that can
31:04
help shape priorities in in meaningful ways.
31:07
So for me, the key take away is the role that we all play in
31:11
fostering an inclusive culture, supporting colleagues,
31:15
addressing unconscious biases, encouraging open conversations
31:19
that can drive that positive change.
31:21
And, and most of the time, behaviours that may seem
31:25
exclusionary are not intentional, but rather a result
31:29
of ingrained habits or lack of awareness.
31:32
So that's what it's important for all of us, especially men in
31:35
leadership positions, to be mindful, you know, challenge
31:39
those outdated mindsets, you know, create that culture where
31:43
everyone feels value and heard. And and I think progress starts
31:47
with awareness and the willingness to make a
31:49
difference. Isn't it about kind of bringing,
31:54
bringing men along with you along with you in the journey,
31:57
because the intention isn't to isolate men within this.
32:01
It's about having men as your allies.
32:03
And as soon as you don't include men in this conversation and
32:07
understand from their perspective where you're, where
32:10
they're coming from and demonstrate to not just men and
32:15
other diversity groups or who your audience, what the issues
32:19
are that you face, then you're you're putting it in a you're
32:24
putting it in a corner, but you're also isolating them and,
32:26
and not hearing their opinions. So it's really important to, to
32:30
bring those two fronts together or, yeah, to bring men into the
32:35
conversation to ensure that you don't then go off on a, a
32:40
diversion that actually they feel excluded because that's not
32:44
the intention of, of, of this whole movement.
32:48
Dave, can I? I mean, how do men who want to
32:51
do the right thing feel about all this?
32:52
It sounds as though it's kind of treading on the egg shells a
32:55
bit. Well, I think there's a.
32:58
So firstly, most, most of what we talk about is just being more
33:02
inclusive in your working environment.
33:04
And, and we have to, it's shocking in a one way that we
33:08
have to remind ourselves to be nice and, and thoughtful because
33:12
ultimately that's what it comes down to.
33:14
And so we, we do have to take ourselves, We do need to spare
33:20
the time, I think as, as males to go, oh, this isn't about the
33:25
guys in the male form that I've worked with over the last 10
33:28
years. And that's how we do things.
33:30
And it's OK to talk about these things because it's for guys,
33:33
you know, we have to remind ourselves that the, the
33:35
conversations need to be more inclusive as a, as a basic, you
33:39
know, right, you know, just the basic element of, of, of
33:43
respect. So I think, I think and, and
33:45
we're actually seeing a whole heap of issues around
33:49
inclusivity kind of be addressed or being, being brought to the
33:53
attention at the moment as well. So gender being gender imbalance
33:57
being one of those, as a man, I think you do feel like you're
34:01
treading on egg shells, but that's not a bad thing if it's
34:03
because it's making you think so.
34:05
So one of my colleagues was sharing with me some of the
34:09
conversations she's had with other male colleagues about
34:12
women in our business. And some of them have felt a
34:15
little bit nervous about being seen to be an ally because
34:19
they're worried about how that looks and how that feels.
34:21
And, and that not enough to stop them being an ally, but they're
34:26
just sharing that that's how they're kind of fit.
34:28
There's a, there's a sense of nervousness about how, how am I
34:31
seeing if I stick my head above the parapet?
34:34
Now that that's nothing compared to, to how other people might
34:37
feel from from the other side of things, But it's but it's still
34:39
worth understanding if that's a potential barrier to being the
34:43
best ally that you can be. But I will say, can I just add
34:48
one more thing that as a, as a male in the built environment, I
34:53
see absolutely no reason why it can't thrive with a completely
35:00
gender neutral include most inclusive way of life.
35:03
Because I think it's, it's a great, it's a great role.
35:06
It's a testing one. It's hard and it and it's, but
35:09
there's nothing in our environment that stops it being
35:11
something for everyone. And so for me, it's get, it's
35:15
kind of trying to work out the systemic issues that stop people
35:19
thriving in their careers. Really what I wanted to ask all
35:23
of you, as well as like what actions actually work.
35:27
Something that some companies have tried is kind of reverse
35:29
mentoring. So you're actually, I think you
35:31
said put your feet in someone else's shoes.
35:34
But what I'd like to ask all three of you, what actions have
35:38
you seen that work? Anita, would you like to tell us
35:42
what you've seen in your, your kind of role as leadership and
35:47
coach culture coach? So then we've spoken about lots
35:52
of things today. We've spoken about education.
35:54
We've spoken about raising awareness and tackling
35:58
unconscious bias. And I'm going to say
36:01
controversially, perhaps that's not the answer, I don't think,
36:04
because I think we've been doing that for years and it's not
36:07
working. And it's not to say that we
36:10
don't need education, but there needs to be the open mindedness
36:15
to receive that education. And when we answer that, we move
36:19
past awareness into action and into real change that is
36:24
systemic and sustainable and long lasting.
36:28
Because when we spend our time saying it's International
36:31
Women's Day, let's talk about women, then it's not enough to
36:37
drive change. And actually the education piece
36:41
with inclusion is actually a real unlearning rather than a,
36:47
rather than just let's learn about the experiences of people
36:52
who are different than ourselves is actually an unlearning of the
36:56
things that we have been conditioned as we have grown up
36:59
in an environment where there are inequities.
37:03
So there's we're having to strip down layers of things that
37:07
people and all of us thought we knew.
37:10
So we're having to turn a lot of stuff on it's head.
37:14
So while education is part of that, we really actually need a
37:19
real much more broader approach to what that education is or it
37:22
looks like. And it's engaging in some
37:25
meaningful dialogue, I think supported and facilitated and
37:30
its inclusive leaders really understanding why we're doing
37:33
this work. Why does it matter?
37:36
And I don't always talk about the business case, but actually
37:39
like why does it matter in your organisation and in your team if
37:43
women are leaving your organisation after you haven't
37:46
spent time on attracting them into the organisation?
37:51
That is a huge business case for you to care and to make their
37:57
experiences better so you don't lose out on that talent.
38:01
It's a huge reputational gain. And I talk about raising the bar
38:04
in our sector because actually I don't think we should be
38:08
comparing ourselves to each other when the bar's so low.
38:12
What can we do to make things better?
38:15
And and with with that, we take learnings from the winds.
38:20
So in some of my research, what I found is we found some really
38:24
great case study examples of the leaders who might be get who are
38:29
in some cases doing some really great things.
38:31
So one of the things that we found was actually as a response
38:36
to the the race riots in last summer.
38:42
The research that I did found that a majority of women from
38:46
who were under underrepresented from the ethnicity, they did not
38:51
feel supported by their organisations.
38:53
Only three out of 10 felt supported.
38:56
But we also had the examples of women that were telling me
39:00
actually in my organisation, I don't feel safe out on the
39:03
street. But my, my manager checked in
39:06
with me. My I knew my team were there for
39:09
me. I felt safer at work than I did
39:11
in, in society. So we can do some really great
39:14
things for our people. Let's be the ones that raise the
39:18
bar and make our environment safe where women can thrive,
39:23
women of all ethnicities, all identities, and let's support
39:26
them to get into leadership. Thank you, Fran.
39:31
What, what would it take to accelerate change within
39:35
organisation? What do you think works and what
39:39
what can you do as an individual to encourage this as well?
39:43
Just everything I think to you just said I think is really
39:47
interesting. And yeah, it seems kind of
39:50
almost naive to think or have said about education because
39:54
you're completely correct that we've been working on trying to
39:58
educate people and trying to demonstrate these unconscious
40:04
biasness and, and, and change that mentality in an informative
40:09
way. And you know, here we are,
40:12
however many years later and nothing's really changed.
40:15
It's really difficult to really. Pinpoint what is going to be
40:20
that momentous kind of you read the moment that will spring into
40:24
action to to to create change. But I think I was talking to
40:29
somebody previously and there have been other industries that
40:33
have reflected a similar dis preparatory between women and
40:37
men. And there have been changes that
40:39
have come through. And I suppose one of its kind of
40:43
perseverance making sure that there are not only just
40:49
diversity inclusion policies within an organisation, but
40:52
they're actually being implemented and demonstration of
40:56
that implementation. So almost KPI is to say, right,
41:01
excellent, you've got some policies, but how are you
41:03
actually achieving those policies?
41:05
And what can you show as results from those that show that you've
41:10
got a better attention of women because you've you've applied a
41:14
really good mentoring scheme across the organisation that
41:18
you've used, you know, different ways of promoting your
41:23
internships or encouraging people into the industry that
41:27
has actually brought about not just a statistical change, but
41:32
through your well-being surveys or something, you're getting
41:35
better results the for women within the organisation feeling
41:40
more included, respected and experiencing a better sense of
41:49
well-being. OK.
41:51
Thank you. Dave.
41:53
What do you think works? What have you, what gets
41:56
discussed at the kind of top levels of organisation, what
41:59
what has some kind of bang for its buck when it comes to
42:03
policies or things to try to help move this, move the dial on
42:07
this? I think the reverse mentoring
42:10
piece, senior leadership team is probably the most powerful.
42:14
I mean, I've definitely benefited from having a female
42:20
mentor throughout my career who happens to be a close friend who
42:24
works in a different sector. And she's, she shared with me on
42:27
many, over many glasses of wine, the, the trials and tribulations
42:30
that she's faced and, and really opened my eyes to it.
42:33
And, and, you know, I'd like to think that I've developed my
42:36
understanding through, through those kind of understanding her,
42:41
her experiences. So I think I think anything that
42:44
can help senior decision makers to to understand the journey and
42:49
the challenges that that that people have faced, I think is
42:53
really powerful. I think calling it out is the,
42:57
the second thing that has a massive impact.
43:00
You know, if you're, if you're called out and it's done in the
43:03
right way, you will learn from it and, and you will be more
43:06
mindful of it in the future. And if you can create a culture
43:09
where it's OK to call it out, even better.
43:11
But if you haven't, then having your ally that can call out on
43:14
your behalf is, is just, you know, maybe not as impactful,
43:18
but is impactful. I think the last thing and, and
43:22
this is, I guess it shows my evolution of understanding of
43:25
the situation is, yeah, my views on needing more purposeful
43:29
action has just got stronger over time.
43:33
I think the latest stats from the World World Economic Forum
43:36
is that gender parity isn't likely to be reached until 2158.
43:41
2158. 2158, which is five generations now.
43:46
I know you wanted me to add some positivity to this call, but
43:49
the, the sad reality is like, if that's the case, it's just not
43:53
good enough. So we have to do some, some have
43:56
some take some positive action to, to address it.
43:59
And if that means that some people miss out in the short
44:02
term because there there's a need to to address the imbalance
44:08
and then so be it. We live in interesting times,
44:12
all the kind of there's a backlash against diversity
44:16
inclusion at the moment. Why is it so important to focus
44:19
on this issue right now and move it from being stuck?
44:23
Like, what do you, each of you think about that, Fran?
44:27
So for me it's really important to address this as an issue.
44:30
Now there's data coming out demonstrating that actually is
44:34
female within senior role within the construction industry are
44:39
one of the lowest in industry in total.
44:42
And so it's really important that we address this.
44:45
The construction industry is continually developing.
44:50
There's a need for innovation, there's a need for more
44:53
inclusive environments that create creativity and without a
44:58
diverse mix of worse workforce, I don't believe this is a
45:02
possibility. Organisations need to make sure
45:06
that they're structured in a way that enables personal
45:11
development and growth. True leadership.
45:13
It's just about, it's not just about delivering projects, it's
45:16
also about giving people the space, the environment to be
45:20
heard, to be treated fairly and respectfully.
45:24
And this comes from the organisation, it's not just the
45:27
individual. And that's why it's important to
45:30
ensure that these are being implemented now because if there
45:33
are movements arising that coming through in the younger
45:36
generation that emphasises inequality, then organisations
45:42
need to stand up and say that this isn't something that they
45:45
want to represent within the organisation that they are
45:49
functioning in. Anita, what do you think?
45:53
What? Why do we need to focus on this
45:55
issue right now? How are you going to get it
45:57
unstuck? So I think it's really important
46:00
that we focus on it now more than ever.
46:02
Absolutely, right. Because of this backlash, what
46:05
we're seeing in the United States for an example, but we
46:09
are seeing it in the UK as well, is that this backlash to DEI,
46:14
this backlash to create in diverse, inclusive environments.
46:18
They are safety issues ultimately.
46:20
And if I've learned anything in my 20 years in the built
46:24
environment is we say that that's the thing we prioritise
46:27
the most. However, as a sector, we aren't
46:30
doing it holistically. People are being harmed by
46:33
workplaces beyond just physical health, and that is being
46:38
missed. So like it should be ingrained
46:42
in our culture, just what you said, Emma, it should be
46:44
ingrained in our culture. It's not yet, but we absolutely
46:48
need it to align with our values.
46:49
So it is. And to be honest, like what do
46:53
we call DEI? Part of me is on the case of do
46:57
you know what? It sort of doesn't matter as
46:59
long as you do the work. And if that's what you've got to
47:02
do because there's a backlash, then do that.
47:05
But also, it doesn't mean that we should just sugarcoat it so
47:10
that we can please everyone. Sometimes you're going to have
47:14
to have some challenging conversations and if we are
47:18
trying to meet everyone's needs, we we absolutely still need to
47:22
make sure that we're meeting the needs of those most impacted,
47:25
most marginalised. And that's why I really advocate
47:28
of for us to really understand what we need to do in our
47:31
specific organisations and more widely in our sector.
47:36
OK. Thank you, Dave.
47:39
Any final words? Why do we need to focus on this
47:43
issue now? I think, I think the, the, there
47:45
is a rise of misogyny and the younger generations that we need
47:47
to educate and continue to, to really demonstrate our clear
47:53
values and behaviours as a, as a responsible business industry
47:57
sector. So, so that's, that's definitely
48:01
something that is a little bit alarming at the moment in the
48:03
short term, you know, in the short term.
48:07
But fundamentally, you know, projects are becoming more
48:10
complex, bigger, more political, and we need the best people to
48:15
be leading those projects. And, and we're, and quite
48:17
frankly, we're missing out at the moment.
48:19
Some of the best people are leaving our industry or, or not
48:22
coming into it in the first place.
48:24
So, so yeah, we have to, we need more brighter, better talented
48:30
project managers and, and, and maybe that's full stop for me.
48:37
That's perfect way to end this podcast.
48:40
It just leads me to say thank you to all of you for your time
48:44
and your honesty and your desire to kind of talk about this issue
48:48
and make change happen. So thanks very much.
48:52
Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me.
48:53
Thank you. Thank you everybody.
49:04
Thanks again to Francis, Dave and Anita for joining us and to
49:07
you for listening to the APM podcast.
49:10
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49:12
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49:15
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49:18
Interest Network, please go to the APM website or find them on
49:21
LinkedIn. A link to Anita's research can
49:25
also be found in the notes for this podcast.
49:28
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49:31
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49:37
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49:44
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