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Malcom X · Stuff You Should Know

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know.
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: A production of iHeartRadio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast Son, Josh,
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: And there's Chuck and Jerry's here too, just being quiet
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: as a church mouse. And this is stuff you should know.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: It's because he told her to zip it.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I was gonna leave that part out. You're gonna get
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: hate mail for that one.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: I'm surprised we're just now getting to this.
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: I went through a Malcolm X phase in college. I
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: wasn't one of those guys walking around Georgia with a
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: Malcolm X hat on.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: You weren't wearing like, Okay, I have a great story,
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: but please go ahead.
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: It was after I saw the movie because I was
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: a big you still am big Spike Lee guy. So
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: I saw the movie in ninety two and then read
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: the autobiography that with Alex Haley right after that, Yeah,
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: and was just super into a story at the time.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: It's been a while, though.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: Well, I have just entered my Malcolm X's face. I uh,
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: just researching him. I accidentally got radicalized, and I've got
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: his autobiography on the way. It should get here today. Great,
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: but it's it's crazy, Chuck, because like, especially as just
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: white people of our generation, if you hadn't already gotten
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: into him and like seing the Spike Lee movie and
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: read his autobiography and just started to read his speeches
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: and stuff, if you just kind of knew him like
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: I had up to this point, Like you knew him
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: as the guy who said, like by any means necessary,
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: that he was he was militant, that he was essentially
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: the foil to doctor Martin Luther King Junior, and that
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: he and King kind of represented these two this fork
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: in the road that America had to kind of choose between,
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: because there was at this point in like the fifties,
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: starting in the fifties, there was no way for America
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: to just stand there at the crossroads any longer. Like
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: like America as a whole had to make a choice
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: which way we're gonna go race war or integration, peaceful integration.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: And that's what Malcolm X represented to white America. Race war,
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: like black militants taking over killing white people mercilessly, ruthlessly
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: because white people had it coming. Or you know, everybody's
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: much more familiar with the Martin Luther King Junior way,
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: but there's so much more to it than that, and
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: just researching this this guy, I like, I'm I don't
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: even want to say a fan, because I think that
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: kind of undermines like the respect I have for him now,
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: Like he's he's an amazing figure.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: It turns out, yeah, for sure.
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: And you know, when I was in high school, there
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: was a big This Is you know, I graduated eighty nine,
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: the movie was ninety two, so this was leading up
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: to the film, which obviously put things on a much
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: bigger sort of platform. But it was a big deal
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: in the eighties. Like, there was a big sort of
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: at least in the South. I don't know how it
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: was everywhere else, but there was a big movement among
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: you know, the black students at my school to get
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: in touch with the African heritage. Malcolm X hats were
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: all over the place in my school, and he was
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: just sort of in the forefront, I guess, kind of
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: like my junior and senior year. So it was striking
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: to me that we didn't learn about him in high school.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but if you step back and really think about it,
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: it's not very surprising, you know.
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean looking back at the substandard public school
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: education I got.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: Correct, Yeah, but also the white washed and sanitized version
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: where it's like, Okay, we'll tell you about Martin Luther
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: King Junior, but don't ask about Malto's. Yes, you don't
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: want to know about him.
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: He was a rough dude, but he yes, or anyone else.
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: It was just Martin Luther King exactly.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. He did the whole thing by himself, it turns out. Yeah,
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: so yeah, I remember that same era as well. Okay,
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: so I say we get into this because we could
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: probably sit here and do an intro and it would
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: end up being the entire thing. Well, let's jump in
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: and everybody else can kind of make up their own
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: minds about how you feel about Malcolm X and just
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: kind of asit decide to start. I would definitely recommend
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: going and watching the documentary on him. That American experience
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: did I think in the nineties, make it plain. And
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: then I read a bunch of articles and the best
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: one I read was the Achievement of Malcolm X by
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: John J. Simon. That was in the Monthly Review. That
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: was a really good comprehensive one too.
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and see that's Spike Lee movie Exception. I've not
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: seen it, man, you gotta check it out.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: That's great.
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: I will. Okay, So we're talking about Malcolm X. If
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: you hadn't figured that out by now, and you may
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: or may not know that Malcolm X was born Malcolm Little.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: That was his given name. He was born back in
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: nineteen twenty five in Omaha, Nebraska, and from the outset,
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: he was essentially raised in a very black conscious family,
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: so he was aware of the state of racial affairs
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: in the United States as a very young person and
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: oppression that black people lived under at the time and
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: still do him many ways.
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. His dad, Earle was a Baptist lay speaker,
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: his mother Louise Little. They were both members of the
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: Universal Negro Improvement Association, which was a Marcus Garvey joint
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: someone else we never learned about in high school. And
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: they moved to Milwaukee for a little while. Then eventually
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: in nineteen twenty eight, when little Malcolm was three, landed
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: in Michigan, and they landed in a white neighborhood and
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: that was a big problem because they were not wanted there,
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: and Earle Little was not the kind of guy to
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: just pack up and leave because his neighbors didn't want
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: him there, so he stayed and the community had a
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: clause in their hoa covenant that said that basically no
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: one was allowed to sell a house to non white people,
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: and so they sued to a victim. And while that
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: was kind of going through, even before the eviction was finalized,
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: a group of white men burned their house to the
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: ground without any firefighters even showing up.
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: Right, So whether they wanted to move or not, they
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: had to now, and they moved a little further out
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: of where they lived, still in the Lansing area, And
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: I don't know when the house burned, but just within
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: a year or two maybe less. Malcolm was six years
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: old and his father died. He died in a mysterious,
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: bizarre streetcar accident where he was run over by a streetcar.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: And that's just the official line on the whole thing.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: In fact, I think it was. It ended up being
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: ruled a suicide. But according to Malcolm his family, his mother,
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: like his father, was murdered, probably by a clan affiliated
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: group called the Black Legion who operated in Michigan back then,
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: and that was pretty much what the family was convinced of,
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: that his father had been murdered. Then, on top of that,
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: no one would admit that his father was murdered, which
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: I'm sure makes that kind of experience that much harder.
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there was actual evidence that was ignored.
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: He had clearly been beaten and placed on the tracks,
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: so it was kind of just brushed under the table.
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: It was very upsetting for a young Malcolm because that
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: was like the rumor. It was all around the school
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: and everything, so he was hearing all these stories and
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: it was, you know, definitely a big early sort of
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: kind of forking the road for him, and that his
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: family was left without their dad.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: They, like you said, ruled it a suicide.
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: But I think she got like one thousand dollars in
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: one life insurance payment. Louise did, which would be about
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: twenty five grand a day, but was denied because of
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: the suicide claim, a much larger insurance claim. So she
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: didn't have a lot of dough to feed.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: What was eight kids?
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: Eight kids, man, and now she suddenly on her own
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: and she had a nervous breakdown, is what you would
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: call it. I think that she was diagnosed as paranoid
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: and was transferred to this state hospital in Kalamazoo where
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: she stayed. This is in the mid thirties. She stayed
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: there until nineteen sixty four, I think like twenty six
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: years or something like that, and all of a sudden,
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: Malcolm and his seven siblings are without parents. They're orphans essentially,
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: and they become wards of the state and they're broken up.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: So just in a very short time couple of years,
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: Malcolm goes from having a stable home life to his
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: father being murdered, his mother having a nervous breakdown and
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: being institutionalized, and his siblings being spread out throughout the
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: foster system around Lansing. That's just what happened to him.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: And if you know a little bit about Malcolm X,
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: you might know that he started out as a criminal.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: What's astounding, Chuck, is this is not when his life
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: of crime began. He actually went the exact opposite.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: Route, well a little both.
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: He started stealing stuff when he was nine because he
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: had to do something to provide for their family. But
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: he never got caught there And you know, wil Gover's
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: his former formal rap.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: Sheet here in a minute.
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: But he was sent to a juvenile detention center in Mason, Michigan.
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: It was about ten miles south of Lansing, and he
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: went to a white school, and he did a great job.
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: He was he's a really you know, was a really
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: smart guy, a really smart kid, and made really good grades.
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: He was very charismatic from the beginning. He was elected
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: class president. Yeah, and had dreams of going to law
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: school before his white teacher said a pretty terrible thing
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: to him.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was an English teacher. And this is a
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: one of the probably one of the This is the
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: second pivotal moment in his life where he had the
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: rug pull out from under him, He had the wind
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: taken out of his sales. He got punched in the
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: bread basket you want to put it because the English teacher.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: He told the English teacher that he was dreaming of
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: becoming a lawyer, and the English teachers like, I think
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: America would accept you more as a carpenter, Like that's
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: the kind of profession you need to go in, you
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: need to be realistic about. And then essentially being a
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: black person in America, it's not, the teacher said, but
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: the point was the same, and it just completely sucked
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: the life and enthusiasm for learning that he had up
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: to that point right out of him.
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he quit school. He never went to school again
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: after that. And he had a very promising academic career
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: in front of him, which is super sad. So at
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: fifteen he goes to live with his half sister in
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: Boston and eventually would get a job working at the railroad.
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: So he started traveling around some and by seventeen found
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: himself living in Harlem. And this is where he got
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: the name that stuck with him. You know, during his
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: sort of early tea or later teenage years.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: I guess Red.
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: He had this red hair, so he was either Detroit
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: Red or Big Red because he was a tall guy.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: He's six foot four.
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: In just a little fun side note, while he was
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: in Harlem, he was working at a chicken shack with
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: a guy named John Sandford, and he was Chicago Red
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: and Malcolm was Detroit Red. And he was trying. John
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: Sandford was trying to be a stand up comic and
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: that ended up being Red Box.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: That's right of Sandford in something. Yeah, I love that
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: little fact. So yeah, he was. He became a I
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: guess he'd call him a petty criminal, but he was.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: He took all of that kind of charisma and charm
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: and initiative and turned it. He directed it toward a
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: life of crime. He's often described as a pimp, although
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: he was never a pimp. He seemed more like the
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: kind of guy who just knew where to get whatever
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: you wanted, and that included sex workers, that included drugs.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: He loved pot, he loved gambling, and he actually committed
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: a lot of his crimes like burglary, theft, that kind
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: of stuff just to support his habits, which eventually turned
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: into cocaine, which even back then was more expensive. And again,
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: he loved to gamble, so he needed to keep both
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: of those things up, and that was a large reason
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: why he was such a prolific criminal during this time.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: Another reason is that he just the options that he
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: had hadn't really panned out very well for him. Like
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: he had a few jobs up to this point, but
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: he realized, like, I'm not going to get anywhere serving
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: sandwiches on a train, I'm not going to get anywhere
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: shining shoes, Like I might as well make away for myself,
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: and the only way to make away for myself in
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: this situation is crime.
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. He was arrested a couple of times.
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: He was arrested at nineteen allegedly stealing his half sisters
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: for coat, whom he lived with pretty low hanging fruit.
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: Got arrested again when he allegedly mugged a friend of
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: his at gunpoint, and neither one of those amounted too much.
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: But finally he was arrested for a third time after
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: he'd been doing a series of burglaries of wealthy homes
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: with a kind of a small crew. It was him,
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: it was another black man and three white women. Yeah,
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: and I mentioned everyone's race there, because when they got
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: caught on this one, the three white women just got
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: slaps on the wrist and basically got let go, and
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: the two men were sentenced to eight to ten in
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: the Hoofscow.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they would have gotten much worse than that
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: documentary make it plain. The other guy, his friend, Malcolm Jarvis.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: He said that they tried to get the women to
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: say that the Malcolm X and Malcolm Jarvis had raped
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: them and had all they had to do was say that,
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: and they would have been convicted of that and sentenced
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: to a couple more decades for that. And luckily they
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: were tight enough with these women that they said, no,
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: we're not going to do that, despite the pressure that
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: they were under.
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: Two Yeah, for sure. So prison is where a lot
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: happened to him. In prison sort of one of his
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: first big transformations. He spent about almost seven years there
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: for that burglary, and he was about twenty years old
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: at the time, and it was in prison where he
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: really kind of found himself for the I guess for
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: the first time as an adult, and that he remembered like, Hey,
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: I'm a smart guy, and I used to love academia
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: and learning. So he started he became a voracious reader
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: again in prison. He apparently tried to memorize the Dictionary
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: in prison and was reading anything he could get his
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: hands on, including, eventually which would really transform his life,
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: the teachings of Elijah Muhammad, who was a leader of
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: the Nation of Islam at the time.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and before he kind of came on to those
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: teachings from his siblings, I think who encouraged him to
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: start looking into that. And he had a real aversion
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: to any kind of religion. He was actually known as
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: Satan by the other prisoners in the correctional facility he
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: was in. But the reason he was able to read
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: so much, Chuck, is because he happened to be in
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: MCI Norfolk in Massachusetts, and it's well known to have
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: a lot, like a huge library, connections with like MIT
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: and Harvard and all that stuff. So it was actually
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: the perfect prison for him to land in. So he
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: was able to kind of educate himself from that point on.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: And then when he finally did start taking up the
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: teachings of Elijah Mohammad, it just clicked. And it was
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: even further, I guess reinforced when he started writing letters
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: to Elijah Mohammad and Elijah Muhammad started writing back to him.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: That really encouraged him big time.
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know why because he didn't have to write
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: letters to get those books like Andy Defrain, Yeah in
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: the Shawshing.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: Redemption, No, they just threw them at you.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he was of course because it was Massachusetts.
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: So yeah, he started, you know basically it became a
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: pinpal with Elijah Mohammed and really became a hardcore Muslim
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: pretty quickly after reading you know, his works, and became
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: an ascetic. So that means no drugs, no booze, no pork,
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: no movies or music, no gambling, no dancing, like the
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: real straight and narrow. And you know, we'll later find
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: out that that became a bit of a riff later on,
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: because he didn't think Elijah Muhammad at one point was
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: sort of walking the walk where as he really was
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: from the beginning.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, like and he did throughout too. Like
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: the FBI tried and tried and tried to get something
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: on him, and they couldn't get anything. Like, He's just
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: that upstanding and moral from that point on. I also,
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: I had never even thought to wonder, but I had
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: no idea why his last name was X. I was
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: pretty surprised to learn this, But it makes a lot
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: of sense.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: You didn't know that, no, Okay, I thought that would
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: have been sort of just the basic common knowledge.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: But maybe not.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, maybe it is, but I'm I'm pretty uncommon, right, You're.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: An uncommon podcaster.
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: So yeah, he dropped the name little because and a
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: lot of people in the Nation of Islam did and
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: do this because that was he thought that was his
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: slave name, so he rid himself of that name and
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: replaced it with an X.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. He also one of the reasons he despised religion.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: He despised Christianity in general because he considered that the
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: slave religion that was given to the African slaves to
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: essentially keep them in line, and so it was actually
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: it was a big deal that he became this devotee
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: of this religion and this particular religion. Just really quick,
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: if you're not familiar with the Nation of Islam, it
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: is not the same thing as Islam that was that
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: emerged out of the Middle East several hundred years ago.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: It bears like a slight resemblance to it, but it
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: is essentially a completely altered version that has a lot
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: of theology that seems very odd to outsiders.
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean they were Muslim, but you know, I
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: know you've and this is stuff I didn't know that
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: you found some stuff about Elijah Muhammad's original beliefs that
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: I was I was just sort of shocked by.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so you've heard white devils before. I mean, you
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: have to was listening to like ICEQB. He always talks
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: about white devils. But that is actually a teaching from
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: the Nation of Islam from Elijah Muhammad, and it predates him.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: The Nation of Islam had been around for a few
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: decades before Elijah Muhammad was its prophet. But the reason
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: that they call white people white devils is because, according
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: to black Muslim theology. There was a genius named yaka
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Black Genius who created white people by bleaching black people
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: and he mutated them into white, blue eyed devils. And
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: the reason why is he wanted to basically put the
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: black race to the test, so he put them in
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: a subjugated position because he allowed these white people to
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: be devils, to basically act like white people have treated
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: black people since time immemorial. And that this rain would
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: last about six millennia, and that the six millennia were
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: almost up, and that this was the time when the
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: black race would rise and take over from the white devils.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: Who would who would really regret the stuff that they
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: had done up to that point after.
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: That ye, which would have placed it about nineteen seventy.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: And so white Americans hearing this at the time, they
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: thought that's when like the race war was coming.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: Was was nineteen seventy or thereabouts.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and we talked about that before and like, I
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: never really understood it, but this is a big, big
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: reason that white America was like, there's go to be
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: a race war. It's like coming, it's inevitable. That was
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: a big part of it. So, yeah, this was and
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: this wasn't like metaphorical. This is from what I understand,
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: it's a it's a literal interpretation of where white people
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: came from six thousand years ago. So this was the
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: This was what Malcolm X was being indoctrinated into. And
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: he was a smart guy, so he he had to
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: submit himself, like he had to take parts of his
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: brain and just turn them off. The suspicious part of him,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: as far as like what he was being taught had
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: to be turned off, the critical thinking part, as far
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: as anything goes with the religion that he took on.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: He was able to compartmentalize, turn it off, and throw
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: himself fully into it. And he was for the first
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: decade essentially that he was a black Muslim, the best
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: thing that ever happened to the Nation of Islam by far.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, that seems like a pretty good place
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: for a break.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: I agree.
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: All right, we'll be right back, everybody with more on
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: Malcolm X. So Malcolm X is granted parole in nineteen
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: fifty two. He gets out of prison a completely different
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: person than who entered prison almost seven years earlier, and
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: he was on a mission to recruit and get as
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: many people as he could to join the Nation of
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: Islam and had a direct sort of go get him
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: tiger from Elijah Muhammad, And so as soon as he
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: was paroled, he joined Temple Number one in Detroit. He
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: traveled to Chicago to meet Elijah Mohammad in person, and
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: he said, like I said, he said, you know, go
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: out there and do your thing. Like he knew he
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: had a sort of a shining star because he was again,
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: he was taugh he was handsome, he was charismatic, he
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: was super smart. And within a year there were only
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: about four hundred members of the Nation of Islam at
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: the time. Within a year he brought that to about
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: a thousand, but that would grow to six thousand by
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: nineteen fifty five, and then in the early nineteen sixties
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: about seventy five thousand, up from a four hundred when
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: Malcolm X came on the scene. So a lot of that,
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: not all of it, obviously, but a lot of that
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: is really due to him being the face you know,
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: I guess sort of the second face and then ultimately
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: the face of the Nation of Islam.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, his rhetoric, the things he was saying,
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: and like you said, the charisma and just how well
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: spoken he was, and the points he makes, it's like,
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: you can be white and he's talking about you being
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: a white devil. Sorry, you all white people are white devil's.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: He was uncompromising in that right. It wasn't like, yeah,
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: I mean some of them are okay. No, white people
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: were okay in this philosophy. And he in addition to
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: that rhetoric, he also just knew how to work the
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: media and what you know, levers to pull, and he
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: pushed Elijah Muhammad way out of his comfort zone to
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: allow him to do new stuff with the Nation of
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Islam that helped bring in tons and tons of people.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: One of the first big ones was a documentary from
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: Mike Wallace of all People back in nineteen fifty nine
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: called The Hate that Hate Produced, and it just basically said,
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: look at these guys, but at the same time, listen
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: to what these guys have to say. And it exposed
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: the world to black Muslims and it really helped drive
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: up membership.
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, he was not trying to make friends
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: in his job, even within his own community. You know,
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: we talked about him being a hardliner and ascetic, and
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: he said that everyone should practice asceticism. And you know,
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: he went to Philadelphia at one point in nineteen fifty
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: five and said, all right, everyone here is.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Needs to get their act together. You need to lose weight.
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: Even he had leaders in Philadelphia weighing their members twice
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: a week, and there were penalties if you didn't lose
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: the poundage that he required because he wanted everyone to
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: look a certain way. About a year later, in nineteen
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: fifty six, he met civil rights activists Betty Sanders when
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: she joined his temple, and two years later when he
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: called her from a gas station phone and proposed. They
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: married in January nineteen fifty eight, and later that year
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: had the first of what would be six daughters.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all daughters, right, the whole, all along the way,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: even twins. I think the last ones born were twin daughters.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: So yeah, you said that he wasn't really trying to
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: make friends, and he didn't care whether he ticked people off.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: So the old guard, the existing guard of the Nation
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: of Islam, who had been around long before Malcolm X
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: came along, they were not happy with this. They did
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: not like to be told that they were dowe and
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: to diet or else they'd be suspended. But he was
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: attracting people who were very much in line with himself.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: So very quickly, as he started to build up the
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: roles of the members of Nation of Islam, the philosophy
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: and the viewpoint of that group started to shift away
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: from the establishment that had been there up to that
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: point to this much more radical, much more politically active
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: version of the Nation of Islam. That was the Malcolm
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: X brand of Nation of Islam.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, Elijah Muhammad told him to stay out
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: of politics because he was a complete separatist. He didn't
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: want to be involved in anything that the White America
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: was doing. But you know, Malcolm X basically started doing
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: his own thing. One of the big sort of early
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: things he did that ended up being a huge deal
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: was he founded their newspaper. It was called Mohammad Speaks,
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: and it became a really it had a pretty wide distribution,
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: and you know, I remember, even growing up seeing on
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: the streets of Atlanta members of the Nation of Islam.
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: I feel like they were giving him away. I don't
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: think they were selling them. But he had pretty firm
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: quotas established for members to give these things out and
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: had a pretty wide circulation.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he also would do things like debate white people.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: He did at Oxford, he did at Harvard on race relations.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: He would take questions from white reporters. All of this
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: stuff was like not what Elijah Muhammad was jibing with,
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: but Malcolm X was getting such results that Elijah Muhammad
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: would just kind of be like, I don't want to
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: do in that. But then when Malcolm went ahead and
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: did it, there wouldn't be any real consequences for it. Right. So,
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: as he's doing this is becoming more and more emboldened.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: And one of the things he sets his sight on, Chuck,
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: is that the American essentially the racial struggle in the
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: United States that was really beginning to become part of
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: the American preoccupation. At the same time in the fifties,
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: it was really civil rights movement was really starting to
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: take shape. And this, again, this was totally opposite from
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: what you were saying Elijah Muhammad wanted, which was isolation,
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: separatism not just from white America, from non black Muslim
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: black America too. Like he had no inclination to join
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: the civil rights Elijah Muhammad to join the civil rights
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: fight because they weren't black Muslims. So therefore they were
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: essentially lesser versions of Black Americans.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah for sure.
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: You know, part of the complications of Malcolm X is
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: that he had some anti Semitic views at times.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: He had some.
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: Pretty dark views of Jews in America and I guess
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: all over the world, but specifically America. And this was
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: especially sort of a you know, a thumb in the
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: eye of Jewish people, because they were a lot of
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: Jewish people were the white people that were kind of
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: really heavily involved in the civil rights movement. Obviously, there
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: were all kinds of people, but Jewish people were leading
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: the charge for white America and the civil rights movement
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: for the most part.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why they were also really highly critical of
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: the naacp is because they essentially said white people had
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: they'd allowed white people to join the white people had
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: taken over and were now steering the boat. So you
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: could not be white and be joined the Nation of Vislam.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, they would not let you in. Still won't
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: as far as I know.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. But the media was loving this.
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: The media loves to pit people against one another, so
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: they had two really clear like you, I think you
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: described him as spoils early on in doctor Martin Luther
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: King and Malcolm X because it couldn't be any more different,
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: not only in kind of the way they looked and
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: how they talked and the things they were saying, but
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: their ultimate goals. So you know, they painted doctor King
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: as a saint, they paid in Malcolm X as a pariah,
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: and the I don't know if it's irony, but something
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: you can't forget is that, you know, Malcolm X was
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: making some waves, but his reach was nothing compared to
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: what doctor King was doing. He Doctor King was much
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: more of a threat, if you you know, as how
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: they would have called it back then to white America
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: and integration than Malcolm X was because he was he
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: was a fringe revolutionary at the time, so he was
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: you know, he was kind of fortunate to be in
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: the newspapers at all, even though you know, the media
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: was painting them as enemies and they kind of you know,
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: enemies is a weird word. They didn't hang out. Doctor
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: King didn't return calls. He was offered like debates for
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: Malcolm X and stuff like that, and he kind of
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: just didn't want anything to do with that brand because
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: he had such a sort of a good thing going
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: he had some momentum.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was worried also that you know, it
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: would it would scare the white coalition that he'd helped
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: build to support this civil rights movement away from the
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: civil rights movement all of a sudden. He's like, oh yeah,
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: and also this guy's philosophy too, we're going to incorporate
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: the race war. Yeah. He had every reason to stay
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: away from Malcolm X, and frankly kind of wisely did.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: But like you said, this was the media saying, like,
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: you got Malcolm X, you got MLK, and that was
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: like both of them kind of fostered that idea because
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: if you had Malcolm X, and you know, you didn't
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: listen to MLK, then we were going to go the
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: Malcolm X way as far as America was concerned in
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: the near future. So we should probably go the way
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: that Martin Luther King is suggesting.
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, reading this stuff, I always was hoping
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: that I would find out that they were secretly in
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: cahoots with one another, Yeah, doing sort of a good
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: a good cop bad cop thing, because they were both
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: well aware of that, and I think they, judging from
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: what some of the quotes I've seen, they were both
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: aware that it was helping the cause ultimately. And even
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: Malcolm X, even though that's not what he was after,
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: he knew that there were gains coming on that side
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: because he was so scary to white America exactly.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it was kind of like how food
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: companies price fixed. They don't have secret meetings, but they
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: just kind of make signals in the market in public,
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: and that's kind of what they think they were doing.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: They were working together without actively working together.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like food companies fixing grocery prices.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: So yeah, and I mean, he was like really outspoken
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: about what he thought about doctor Martin Luther King. He
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: called them a fool and Uncle Tom. He also said
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: that he was subsidized by the white man, that the
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: essentially again that white people had taken over the real
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: levers of power with the civil rights movement and that
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: it was completely useless now. But even if that weren't
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: the case, he was such a critic of the civil
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: rights movement because he's he was basically saying, like, if
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: you're starting a revolution and the revolution's goal is to
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: love your enemy, like that's ridiculous, that's stupid, Like that's
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: never going to work. It doesn't even make sense. So
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: what are you doing? Like, all you're doing is distracting
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: and continuing to keep subjugated the people who you're supposedly
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: trying to liberate and integrate.
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he called the March on Washington the farce on Washington.
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: Malcolm X did, and he said the quote was, whoever
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: heard of angry revolutionists all harmonizing we shall overcome while
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: tripping and swaying along arm in arm with the very
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: people they're supposed to be angrily revolting against. Right, So,
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: you know, I'm not taking sides, but he's making a
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: lot of good points at the time. You know, I
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: think the idea that you can catch more flies with
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: honey than vinegar is true, But it was I think
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: they almost needed there almost needed to be two sides
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: of the same coin happening at the same time.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I no know.
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: It's pretty interesting how it all worked out. And if
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: you're wondering if the federal government was concerned, they absolutely were.
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: This started in nineteen fifty, when Malcolm X was still
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: in prison. He wrote a letter to Harry Truman, who
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: was president, and said, I'm a communist, I'm a post
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: of the Korean War, and President Truman said, maybe we
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: should get a file going on this guy with the FBI,
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: and they did that a couple of years later.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he had also captured the attention of the NYPD
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: around that time where there was a protest because the
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Harlem police had brutalized a member of the Nation of
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: Islam and there was just a bunch of people came
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: out on the street and were shouting about it because
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: the guy had been beaten so badly, off skull been
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: cracked open, and they wouldn't disperse. So Malcolm X was
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: inside essentially negotiating that the guy should get care and
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: taken to the hospital with the police officials and managed
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: to get them to agree to that, but the crowd
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: was still angry, wouldn't disperse, and the cops were trying
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: it wasn't very effective. So Malcolm X went outside and
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: apparently didn't say a word, just waved his hand and
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: the crowd stopped yelling and just dispersed. And apparently the
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: I think the police commissioner witnessed this and was like
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: that that's too much power for any one man to have,
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: especially somebody who believes that the black race is going
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: to take over from the white race, and that the
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: white races all devils like that scared them tremendously and
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: it also really caught their attention. He It put him
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: on their radar essentially forever.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: And as far as the FBI goes he you know,
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: like I said, they started a file on him, which
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: they also had on Martin Luther King and you know,
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: John Lennon and everybody else. We've talked about all this stuff.
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: But there was something they found out later from the
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: files was at one point Jay Edgar Hoover told the
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: New York Agency Office they needed to do something about
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: Malcolm X. But like you said, early on, they had
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: a hard time doing anything because in nineteen fifty eight,
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: an informant said that Malcolm X was of high moral character.
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: He doesn't smoke, he doesn't drink, he's always on time
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: for appointments. He's kind of a stand up guy if
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: you if you're not listening to what he's saying.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: White America. Of course, that didn't matter.
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: But they couldn't pin anything on him essentially, and they
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: even think, and I don't think it's a spoiler to
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: say that he was assassinated. But I feel like everyone
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: knows that, but they even think that the FBI, because
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: they had so many informants inside the Nation of Islam,
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: that they knew about the plot to assassinate him and
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: just let it happen.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw that too, and not just the FBI,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: but also the NYPD just let it happen. So just
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: real quick, Chuck, I say, we take a break in
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: a second and talk about his break with the Nation
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: of Islam. But I just wanted to kind of give
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: a thumbnail catch of like what he was saying. You
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: can go listen. You should start with maybe the ballot
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: or the bullet It is a great speech that gets
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: his point across from this era. But essentially what he
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: was saying is black people have to learn to do
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: for themselves. Integrating and then saying like you know, hey,
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: let's all just share from the same pot with white
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: people isn't going to work because white people will always
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: hang it over you. So we have to figure out
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: how to do it ourselves. Using the Nation of Islam.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: That's how you prop somebody up, get them on the
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: right path, put them on the moral path in a
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: way from temptation, and then after that, you teach them
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: black nationalisms, so now they feel good about being a
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: black person, and then from that point on they have
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: the dignity and the motivation to make something for themselves
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: as a community. That was his goal. That's ultimately what
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: he was preaching. That was the kernel of the whole thing.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: So we're going to take that break and we're going
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: to come back with the sad end and the split
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: from the Nation of Islam right after this.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: So Chuck Malcolm X has become He's the face of
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: the Nation of Islam to the press, to the public.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: People like they know the name Elijah Muhammad. You might
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: even have seen him speak, but it's way likeli er
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: that you've seen Malcolm X speak, and that's who you
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: associate is the head. So if you're the protege and
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: you become that the power kind of shifts like that.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: The mentor doesn't usually like that kind of thing. Then
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: on top of it, the mentor Elijah Muhammad was starting
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: to get on in age, and so the people around
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: Elijah Muhammad, including his blood family, were worried that Malcolm
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: X would actually take over. So there was a lot
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: of reason for there would be jealousy, backbiting, court intrigue,
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: and get rid of Malcolm X one way or another,
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: and that's essentially what happened.
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, his kids thought that they were going
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: to be next in line basically. And you know, I
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: mentioned the FBI had lots of people on the inside
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: of the Nation of Islam. They use those people to
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: kind of stoke that strife internally and you know, try
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: and disrupt it from within, and we're fairly successful at
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: that because it was not smooth sailing at this point.
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: So you know, the real fracture comes. You know, all
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: this is sort of leading up to what I think
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: was the real fracture was when Malcolm X finds out
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: about Elijah Muhammad having three children out of wedlock with
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: three very young members of the Nation of Islam and
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: essentially started looking upon him as a false prophet that
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: was just sort of a guy in power that was
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: using that power to Philander and he was like, I
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: don't think he's fit to lead the Nation of Islam anymore.
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: And in nineteen sixty three of April of that year,
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: he can fronted Elijah Muhammad about this, and that was
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: not something that Elijah Muhammad wanted to hear.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: No for sure, and now like now, Malcolm X was
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: a big problem because this is not something that Elijah
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: Muhammad wanted out to the public. It would immediately discredit him.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: And so do you remember kind of at the beginning,
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: I was saying how Malcolm X had to kind of
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: compartmentalize and turn off critical thinking and stuff like that
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: to allow himself to submit to Elijah Muhammad. After this,
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: after he realized that this guy's actually not the real deal,
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: he was able to kind of grow and spread like
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: one of those sponge dinosaurs that you put water on
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: and they grow, or a different analogy would be like
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: Apache Chief in the Justice League when he grows like
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: really really big. Essentially, that happened the moment he realized
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: that Elijah Muhammad was a false prophet and he was
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: able to finally grow and become the Malcolm X that
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: he always had the potential to be. He had thrown
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: off the shackles placed on him. He gotten out from
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: under the thumb of the leader of the Nation of Islam.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: But that also, unfortunately meant he had no place in
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: the Nation of Islam any longer.
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the final nail in the coffin was
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: when Kennedy was assassinated, he got explicit direction from Elijah
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: Muhammad to shut up about it, to not say anything
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: to the press, to just let this pass because it
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: was such a monumental thing for all of America, certainly
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: for white America. And he was like, we need to
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: stay out of this if we know it's good for us.
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: And Malcolm X did not do that. He went to
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: the reporters and he said that Kennedy's death was quote
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: a case of chickens coming home to roost end quote
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: and Elijah Muhammad was super upset. He said, you're suspended
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: for three months. A month into that, he removed him
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: from most of his leadership roles and that was the
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: writing was on the wall that that was really the
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: beginning of the final split.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and just one little aside about that, chuck him
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: saying a case of chickens coming home to rest. There
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: is so much more background and subtext to it and
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: all the stuff he was saying that led up to that.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: But that's the pull quote, right, that's the thing that
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: you just pull in. It sounds like a pretty awful
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: thing to say, or at least heartless, but if you
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: go back and read that stuff you like, you find
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: there's so much more context to the stuff he was
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: he's quoted for, and like you said, kind of toward
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: the beginning, a lot of it seems pretty reasonable when
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: you listen to the words he's saying.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: You know, after he was expelled basically not formally expelled,
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: but you know, removed from his formal duties, he went
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: down to stay with Cassius Clay future Muhammad Ali at
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: his place in Miami, and he stayed there per week.
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: He was giving him a spiritual guidance leading up to
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: his heavyweight bout with Sonny Liston, and he had not
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: cleared this with Elijah Mohammad, and Elijah Muhammad got mad
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: about that as well and left him off the guest
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: list for convention in February, where Cassius Clay you know,
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: had his coming out as Muhammad Ali.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: So that was a very meaningful snub at the time.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was disappointed in Muhammad Ali because he was
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: basically like, oh that sucks, man, Sorry, see you. Yeah.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: So now this was the break, This was the schism,
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: and at this point now the Nation of Islam is
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: doing everything they can to mock and discredit Malcolm X
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: and say that he was a turncoat and a Benedict
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: Arnold and a hypocrite, and Malcolm xis gave it right back.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: One of the first things he did was to tell
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: the media that Elijah Muhammad had kids out of wedlock
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: with teenage girls that were around him. He said that
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: he had eight kids with six teenage secretaries, and he
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: just told it to the press and that was a
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: really big deal. And I think at that point he
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: realized like he had just taken his life into his
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: own hands.
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's all basically sort of early through spring
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: nineteen sixty four. Later in nineteen sixty four, a very
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: important trip happened when he made the Haj to Mecca,
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: and this was, you know, kind of the final, big
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: life changing moment for him. He came back a Sunni
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: Islam member and he had changed his name from Malcolm
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: X to El Haj Malik l Schabaz, and I believe
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: even his wife and daughters took the name Shabbaz, like
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: you know, throughout the rest of their lives as well.
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: And while he was there, he had a transformation, another
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: transformation kind of like he did in prison. But the
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: other way, he came full circle and said, quote, he
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: had encountered pilgrims of all colors from all parts of
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: this earth, displaying a spirit of unity and brotherhood like
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: I've never seen before. And he essentially flipped and said,
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: you know what, there are good white people and we
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: can and should work together. And he came back and
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: started to do that work and really poured himself for
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: the first time into the legit official civil rightsman.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he told Martin Luther King, like I'm all in.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: He founded the Organization of Afro American Unity. He was
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: trying to essentially teach Black Americans about their African heritage,
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: but that at the same time he had also zoomed
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: in on this idea that he needed to take this
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: struggle for American civil rights to the world like the
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: UN or the African Congress and basically say, hey, this
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: is the same thing. This is part of the black
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: struggle worldwide, Like this is part of this global problem.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: It's not separate, it's not its own thing. So we
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: need to figure out like all these other countries need
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: to get involved too and start pressuring the US to
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: do something about it, which is a pretty clever idea actually,
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: and it was not something that Martin Luther King was
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: doing at the time from what I understand.
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure they would eventually meet. That was a
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: very famous single meeting with Martin Luther King Junior and
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: Malcolm X. It was not something they planned because it's
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: not like Martin Luther King Junior got on board immediately
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: and was like, oh, great, you're joining the movement. Like
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: I don't think he still really liked him that much.
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: But they literally bumped into each other in the hallway
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: when they were at the Senate when the Civil Rights
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: Bill was being debated there at the Capitol Building, and
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: it was like, oh, it's you, and they shook hands.
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: I think he told him in person, I'm throwing myself
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: into the heart of the civil rights struggle face to face.
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: There was a photographer there, so there's a very famous
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: picture of them together. And then later that year in
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: July sixty four's when Congress passed the Civil Rights Act
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: and it was signed into law by Lyndon Johnson. And
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: that was not the end for Malcolm X though he
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: thought he was just getting started.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: Very sadly, Yeah, so this was you said, that was
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: May of nineteen sixty four. Within just a few months,
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: he would be dead. And it's just so sad that
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: he underwent that transformation and all of a sudden his
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: potential is really starting to blossom. He turned into like
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: a full butterfly for the first time, and he's struck down.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: The first thing that happened that kind of just foreshadowed
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: his death was his house was firebombed by he was
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: quite sure members of the Nation of Islam. Apparently one
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: of the bombs was thrown through a window that would
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: have landed in and on the three of his little
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: girls in their room, but luckily it shattered on the
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: outside of the window and didn't make it through, but
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: it burned his house essentially down. And this was a
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: house that was owned by the Nation of Islam, so
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: they went as far as to accuse him of burning
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: it down because they had evicted him from the house,
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: and so out of spite, he burned it down, which
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: was obviously not true.
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, which is full circle because I don't think we
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: mentioned that when their house was burned down when he
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: was a little kid, they actually accused his dad, Earl
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: of burning his own house down. So the same thing
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: happened all those years later. That was on February fourteenth,
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: nineteen sixty five. On February eighteenth, they formally evicted him,
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: and then on February twenty first, he was murdered. He
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: was shot and killed in front of his in front
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: of Betty, in front of the girls. I think there
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: were four girls at the time, because Betty was pregnant
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: with the twins that would be born after his death.
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: And this was in Harlem at an organization of Afro
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: American Unity meeting, and they arrested three members of the
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: Nation of Islam. One confessed and said the other two
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: weren't involved, but the all three were convicted, even though
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: later on, I think in twenty twenty one, the other
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: two were exonerated after the Attorney General of New York
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: saw that they had buried some exculpatory evidence back when
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: it happened.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: Right, So you were talking about how the FBI let
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: it happen. The NYPD apparently helped pave the way by
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: arresting a couple of his bodyguards on bs charges. So
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: he was short security on that day and at his funeral,
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: like he had made quite a name for himself. I
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: think fifteen hundred people showed up, which is a pretty
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: good turnout for your funeral. And Ossie Davis, who was
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: very much in with the Martin Luther King version of
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: the civil rights movement, he led at Malcolm X's funeral
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: because he was just that moved by him, even though
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: he didn't see eye had eye on a bunch of stuff, Like,
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: he realized what a loss this was for the black
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: community in the world.
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: You know, I mentioned that the twins were born after
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: he died. They you know, obviously grew up without their dad,
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: and the other girls weren't that much older, and they
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: always just knew him as dad. He you know, I
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: think the ones that were kind of didn't even know
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: him at all. They weren't raised by Betty as like, hey,
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: your dad was a revolutionary, he was this or that.
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: Apparently they'd learned about him mainly in school because Betty
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: always wanted him just to be a dad and my husband,
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: and so they were. You know, they went on to
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: do a lot of great things as well. We should
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: probably do one on Betty Shabaz at some point. She
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: was a great woman, and his daughters all, you know,
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: became activists in their own way as well.
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I kind of mentioned like how just sad
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: this is that he was struck down, especially at the
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: time he was struck down. But if you look back
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: at like the timeframe of all this stuff, this guy
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: changed the world or left such an indelible mark that
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: people are still learning from him all these years later,
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: over essentially the course of ten years. That was about
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: the timeline that we're talking about, from when he took
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: up the Nation of Islam's teachings to when he was
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: assassinated by the Nation of Islam. It was just about
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: a decade and that's how much of an impact that
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: he made over just that time.
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a pretty great quote that who is
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: this was this Julia.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: That helped us with you, Yeah, Julia helped uspeak time.
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, she found a great quote from a poet Maya Angelou,
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: who Malcolm X visited in at her home in Ghana
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: at one point and basically kind of summarizing what guts
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: it took to make that transformation in full public public view,
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: after being so public and militant. She said that it
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: takes an incredible amount of courage to be able to
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: say say everybody, you remember what I said yesterday, Well
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: I found out that's wrong, and she just thought that
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: was an amazing thing to be able to do. And
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: it really was. You know, not a lot of people
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: can can own up to kind of being on what
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: they thought later was the wrong path.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: You know. Yeah, it is remarkable. So you can go
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: read the autobiography of Malcolm X. Also, I've seen that
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: Malcolm X be is a really great book. I think
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: it's his collected speeches. There's the Spike Lee movie, there's
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: Make It Plain, the PBS documentary, and then there's just
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: tons of like his speeches are just all over YouTube.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: So if you're interested in this at all, like there's
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: a lot you can still learn from Malcolm X, even
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: with him being dead all these years.
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't recommend the book and the movie enough.
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: The book sold four hundred thousand copies. The Year was
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: released in nineteen sixty seven and has sold five million
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: to date. And the movie was a big kit too.
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: It grows close to fifty million bucks, which is not
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: bad for a long, you know, true story biopic like
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: you know, with political overtones. It had a couple of
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: Academy Award nominees. Certainly Denzel because he was amazing as always,
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: and the great Ruth E. Carter for costume design. Even
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: though neither one would win, it was fairly controversial when
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: al Pacino won for Scent of a Woman over Denzel Real.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was.
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: People thought it was a pretty big snub, including Spike Lee.
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: He thought it was due to the controversy of the film,
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: obviously in the character, and he also thought it was
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: a bit of a makeup call for Pacino losing so
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: many times, so he would get some due though later
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: in twenty ten, when the film was added to the
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: National Film Registry as being culturally, historically, or esthetically significantly beautiful.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: That's a great ending, Charles, You got anything else?
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: That's it?
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: Well, that's it for Malcolm X. Chuck just said that's it,
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: So obviously everybody, it's time for a listener mail.
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this one's a little long, but it's one of
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: the great emails we've gotten. Because after we did our
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: what I think was a really fun episode on the
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: Fire Festival debacles, we heard, you know, in that we
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: talked about the Magnesis credit card and we heard from
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: an actual holder of that credit card, which was great.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: Did you see this, so I haven't seen that yet.
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: It's pretty fantastic.
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: So hey, guys here and you talk about this credit
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: card brought me back to some very special memories of
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: my early days in New York. When I first moved
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: there in twenty fourteen, I stumbled upon the Magnesis and
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: thought it sounded like the perfect way to meet new people.
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: Since I was new, there in excess the cool and
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: exclusive parties and parts of the city, so I applied
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: and was surprised.
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: To be accepted as a member.
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: I quickly found myself at fun rooftop parties with open bars,
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: great tickets to shows and sports games, and snagging reservations
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: for restaurants that were impossible to book, all of which
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: seemed to be too good to be true for the
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: two hundred and fifty dollars annual feet, which should have
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: been my first clue that something was wrong. The first
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: reel crack came when I took advantage of an offer
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: to get floor seats to a Beyonce concert for only
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: two hundred dollars and had to obtain the tickets by
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: meeting a quote Magnesis concierge and the parking lot outside.
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: Of the indue.
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: The tickets I got felt like they had just been
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: bought from a scalper, and they probably were.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: But it did work out and it was a great show.
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: Not long after, I had.
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: Will call tickets to an NBA game through a quote
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: partnership they had with the team. When my friends and
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: I showed up to grab the seats, know and behind
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: the ticket counter, I had ever heard of Magnesis. That
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: was a moment I started asking questions, and when I
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: reached out about the issue and about canceling my membership,
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: they actually refunded it almost immediately. In fact, they refunded
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: my fees so quickly it was almost alarming, like they
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: were hoping I'd just.
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: Quietly go away.
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: Thankfully, I managed to exit the whole thing before the
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: house of cards came crashing down. So hearing you guys
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: explain how the whole thing worked was fascinating and weirdly nostalgic.
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: Despite the sketchiness at the end, I actually do have
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: some pretty fun memories from that brief period when it
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: felt like I had unlocked some secret VIP version of
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: New York City.
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: Look forward to your next stop at the Bell House,
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: and that is from Kevin.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: Kevin, that really was one of the all time best
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: emails we've gotten.
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was hoping a Magnusis member would write in,
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: and we got it.
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: Look at you. You should be playing the lotto.
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: That probably should.
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: Thanks a lot, Kevin. If you want to be like
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: Kevin and send us one of our all time great emails,
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: we always love those. You can wrap it up, spank
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: it on the bottom, and send it off to Stuff
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.