Latest / Code & Cure / #34 - Inside ChatGPT Health: Promise, Peril, And Triage Failures

Transcript

#34 - Inside ChatGPT Health: Promise, Peril, And Triage Failures · Code & Cure

0:01
SPEAKER_02: If you asked Chat GPT Health whether to go to the ER, urgent care, or stay home, would you trust it?
0:08
SPEAKER_02: After this structured evaluation, you might think twice.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome back to Code and Cure, where we discuss decoding uh health in the age of AI.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: My name is Vasant Sarati.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm a cognitive scientist and AI researcher.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: And I'm with Laura Hagopian.
0:34
SPEAKER_02: I'm an emergency medicine physician and I work in digital health.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: It's funny, I've been saying this intro for a while now, and for some reason this morning, I was like, uh I have no idea why.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, discuss decoding is like kind of a it's like kind of a mouthful.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I we might need to change that tagline because I the decoding discuss and then health and AI, I get them all mixed up.
0:57
SPEAKER_00: Anyways, um, today's topic is about um chat agents, chat and chat bots for um for health triaging.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: And chat GPT uh has been around for a while now, and they've introduced a new sort of health mode, specialized health mode, and they call it ChatGPT Health.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: And the idea is that it's meant to help you understand and manage your personal health information.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's not necessarily an entirely different AI model, but it adds some infrastructure to, I guess, facilitate uh uses specifically for medical and wellness.
1:31
SPEAKER_02: It does have like a bunch of disclaimers if you if you like try to use it.
1:34
SPEAKER_02: Oh, this is not meant to diagnose, blah, blah, blah.
1:37
SPEAKER_02: But it still is marketed as this, hey, it's like kind of uh, for lack of better words, tuned for the healthcare needs.
1:45
SPEAKER_02: It's tuned to like receive your data.
1:47
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:47
SPEAKER_02: And it would know, it would, in theory, like know more information about health and well-being than your typical model.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I want to stress that you're right.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: They do say that ChatGPT Health is not a doctor, right?
2:00
SPEAKER_00: Uh, it is only meant to help you understand and and and help you prepare for medical conversations, but not for diagnosis or treatment.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: Now, that's true, but in a practical use case, that's not how people are going to be using it.
2:11
SPEAKER_02: Of course.
2:11
SPEAKER_02: People are gonna go in and say, hey, here are my symptoms or here are my lab results.
2:15
SPEAKER_02: I want to understand them because guess what?
2:18
SPEAKER_02: It's a lot faster than you know, waiting for a phone call or a message back from your provider who needs time to like review them, synthesize their thoughts, and then relay them back to you.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: But of course, if it's you know not giving right correct information, then you know, well, the the thing is again, people are relying on people are going on it already, and now they're being they're being told that there exists the specialized health mode.
2:43
SPEAKER_00: So in in effect, they are um they're sort of increasing the trust level for people, right?
2:49
SPEAKER_00: Saying that you should trust this more than the regular Chat GPT in the health could health-related context, because A, we're calling it Chat GPT Health, and B, we're telling you that it is tuned for the for various medical stuff, right?
3:01
SPEAKER_00: So I I think it it is worthwhile talking about what makes this different, right?
3:05
SPEAKER_00: What exactly is different about it about it?
3:09
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I am curious.
3:10
SPEAKER_02: Like what makes the health version, the health version.
3:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:14
SPEAKER_00: So so there's a couple of big topics.
3:16
SPEAKER_00: One is that it's it's it's a dedicated health workspace.
3:20
SPEAKER_00: That is, you're not just asking a normal chat engine, but it's sort of this create separate health environment.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: What that means is um all the chats are stored separately from your normal chats.
3:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, the data is isolated and encrypted and not used to train uh AI models.
3:35
SPEAKER_00: At least that's what they say.
3:36
SPEAKER_00: So it's sort of this medical notebook that kind of lives separately from your Chat GPT.
3:40
SPEAKER_00: So there's that.
3:41
SPEAKER_00: Um it can also um connect if if you give it permission uh to your personal health data.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: So like medical records, lab results, uh wearable information, fitness apps, um, and even doctor visit notes and such.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: Um and it can answer questions based on on those, on that personal data.
4:00
SPEAKER_00: And so the idea is that it's sort of personalized, right?
4:02
SPEAKER_00: Uh more than so you can you you might just, you know, a normal chat GPT question might be um, what does high LDL mean?
4:10
SPEAKER_00: Uh whereas a chat GPT health question uh health might answer your LDL is your LDL is 160, 165, and from your last lab, that is above the recommended range, or something like that, right?
4:22
SPEAKER_00: Something very specific to your own data.
4:26
SPEAKER_02: Right.
4:26
SPEAKER_00: So that's the other piece.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: Um it is also meant to help you interpret health information.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: Uh and the idea is that it's designed for tasks like interpreting test results or summarizing your doctor visits or uh tracking your fitness and giving you some trends and um or even helping you prepare questions um for your doctor and and understanding your various treatment options.
4:47
SPEAKER_00: Essentially, it's sort of an AI health interpreter for your personal records, right?
4:51
SPEAKER_00: That's the other kind of angle here.
4:54
SPEAKER_00: Um It's also what they uh advertise is that it's built with medical input.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: So it was developed with the input from hundreds of physicians across multiple specialties to make it respond, make its responses um safer and more appropriate across various health contexts.
5:12
SPEAKER_02: That's very interesting because Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
5:14
SPEAKER_00: We're setting it up.
5:14
SPEAKER_00: We're setting it up.
5:15
SPEAKER_02: We're totally setting this up.
5:17
SPEAKER_02: We didn't do that.
5:17
SPEAKER_02: Let's do that.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, yeah.
5:19
SPEAKER_00: So before let's not let's not get there quite yet.
5:21
SPEAKER_00: Um so it's meant to be different from ChatGPT in the sense that it's different in how it asks follow-up questions, how it handles risk or uncertainty, and how what kind of safety messaging it provides.
5:33
SPEAKER_00: Um and there's more.
5:36
SPEAKER_00: There's more, right?
5:37
SPEAKER_00: So the you know we know that uh there's a lot of like privacy-related issues.
5:43
SPEAKER_00: And so the idea is you provide a whole bunch of privacy protections in terms of encryption, separate memory.
5:49
SPEAKER_00: It's very strict.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: You don't train it, you don't use the data for anything else.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: So there's some of that going on.
5:54
SPEAKER_00: Um I I think that that it's sort of it's sort of meant to be your AI health dashboard that can read your personal medical data and provide you some useful information along with some messaging.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: Now, I I think that that while that may be the the the sort of advertised case, I think that the functionality that's needed for something like that is still something you know that's going to be covered by when we talk about this, you know.
6:22
SPEAKER_00: In our paper that we're going to talk about, it's a slightly different use case from looking at your own medical records, right?
6:27
SPEAKER_00: We're talking about triaging.
6:28
SPEAKER_02: Sure, but I I would argue that many people would go into a chat bot and a specifically a health chat bot and input their symptoms and try to figure out what's going on and what to do next.
6:39
SPEAKER_02: That's correct.
6:40
SPEAKER_02: That is just like what someone would do.
6:42
SPEAKER_00: And if the tool is is is has been reviewed by hundreds of physicians and so on and so forth, you would assume that it was better than your normal in a vanilla chat bot, right?
6:52
SPEAKER_00: So I that's so with that context, that's Chat GPT health.
6:56
SPEAKER_02: Right.
6:57
SPEAKER_02: What they did in this study was they took 60 different vignettes that were authored by clinicians, and they were, you know, a variety of different um complaints or symptoms that someone might come in with.
7:09
SPEAKER_02: Things like it could be like a cough or a cold, it could be, you know, um a sore throat, it could be asthma exacerbation, it could be a depressed mood or even suicidality, it could be, you know, diabetes with a complication.
7:23
SPEAKER_02: So they had these case vignettes and they had clinicians decide on what what the triage level is.
7:29
SPEAKER_02: How soon does this person need to be seen?
7:31
SPEAKER_02: Do they need to be seen at all?
7:33
SPEAKER_02: And then they had Chat GPT Health try to make that same determination.
7:37
SPEAKER_02: And there were four levels that that um they could be triaged to, just four.
7:42
SPEAKER_02: One is like non-urgent, you know, stay at home, like a cold, you don't need to be seen.
7:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, two was semi-urgent, as in you should go and see your doctor within a couple of weeks.
7:53
SPEAKER_02: Um, three is urgent, as in you should see a doctor within 24 to 48 hours.
7:58
SPEAKER_02: And then four was, hey, this is an emergency.
8:01
SPEAKER_02: You need to go to the emergency department.
8:03
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
8:05
SPEAKER_02: And what they found was ChatGPT Health did pretty well with sort of the middle of the road stuff.
8:14
SPEAKER_02: The the the less the semi-urgent and the urgent presentations.
8:19
SPEAKER_02: But it did not do well at the extremes.
8:22
SPEAKER_02: So it did not do well with emergencies.
8:26
SPEAKER_02: In fact, um, it under-triaged 52% of gold standard emergencies, which is a huge problem.
8:33
SPEAKER_00: And when you say under, what do you mean by under-triaged?
8:36
SPEAKER_02: Like imagine that you're having a stroke and you are in Chat GPT health telling it your symptoms.
8:44
SPEAKER_02: I actually didn't under-triage stroke, it did a good job with stroke, but imagine that.
8:48
SPEAKER_02: And then it says, Oh, you can, you know, you can see your doctor within 48 hours.
8:52
SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
8:53
SPEAKER_02: At that point, your stroke symptoms might have become permanent, right?
8:56
SPEAKER_02: Or you might have died.
8:58
SPEAKER_02: Right.
8:58
SPEAKER_02: And so it it told you like a lower triage level, which can lead to complications, it can lead to death, it can lead to worsening symptoms, etc.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:08
SPEAKER_02: Um it, you know, and at the other end of the spectrum, it did poorly too.
9:13
SPEAKER_02: So it it over-triaged um patients who came in with symptoms that were like, hey, you could stay home.
9:23
SPEAKER_02: And that's a problem because like if you send every cold in to get seen.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's cost to the healthcare system.
9:29
SPEAKER_02: Huge cost to the healthcare system when you could just kind of stay home.
9:33
SPEAKER_02: And it's interesting because like what what happens right now if you call your doctor's office, for example, is you get, you know, usually a nurse on the phone who will help triage you and say, hey, this is an emergency, or hey, we'll see you in the office tomorrow, or hey, I think you can stay home.
9:49
SPEAKER_02: That's we've been seeing a lot of this cold going around.
9:52
SPEAKER_02: You should get better within 24 to 48 hours.
9:55
SPEAKER_02: If you are not getting better or you have a high fever, or this, that, or the other thing, please call back and come in.
10:02
SPEAKER_02: So this is this is a problem on both ends of the spectrum.
10:06
SPEAKER_02: And I and I actually think that they made some key points about where the triaging went awry.
10:17
SPEAKER_02: And I'm curious to hear your perspective on how we think this could be solved for, essentially.
10:23
SPEAKER_02: Like it's where it's not doing a good job.
10:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's I I don't know that there's that there's a good solution for that yet.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: I think that they attempted to try to get as much accuracy in terms of medical accuracy as possible.
10:37
SPEAKER_00: But there is, you know, we've talked about this in other podcasts.
10:39
SPEAKER_00: There is an interaction element that it should, you know, be able to use the information given to it to make the right judgment, but also sometimes there's an interactive component where it might have to I raise a question or whatever.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: But in all of these examples, the vignettes potentially contained all the information it needed to make the right call.
10:58
SPEAKER_02: Right.
10:58
SPEAKER_02: The clinicians who were sort of independently doing it got the same vignette.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: So there is an I mean, we've again talked about this piece as well.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, LLMs, um, you know, they give you the sense that they're reasoning and people think that they're reasoning, but what they're doing inside is not the same kind of reasoning that humans do.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: When we reason about something, we build a model of the world in our heads about how that you know thing happens.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: So if we are talking about a disease, uh the doctors and nurses have a model of how that disease works and how the symptoms manifest and so on.
11:30
SPEAKER_00: And that's a very active model that they can then use to make the right call.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: Whereas these systems don't have that kind of internal model.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: They're just they generate more text.
11:41
SPEAKER_00: And because they've been trained on so much data across the board, there's a certain degree of dial averaging that's happening as well, which I think makes it so that they are choosing middle of the road options for a lot of the cases.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: And you're kind of seeing that here uh a little bit.
11:58
SPEAKER_02: I think Yeah, everything is getting sort of like into the middle triage category.
12:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:03
SPEAKER_02: Whether it was like under or over, like whether it was something that was mild or something that was severe, a lot of them are just coming into the middle.
12:10
SPEAKER_02: Well, there's a statistical concept.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: There's a statistical concept called long tail, which is the idea that um when you have a statistical set of choices to make and it's kind of distributed kind of evenly or not even evenly, but like if you know the bell-shaped bell-shaped curve, right from school, uh most people, the middle grades versus the high and the low, you have the high, a large number of people in the middle and a fewer and fewer as you get further to the ends of the curve, um, shaped like a bell.
12:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, that's not how the real world data is.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: Real world data has what's called a long tail, which is that end, those ends are really big and really long, which means there's a lot of weird and anomalous cases are on the edge that is not part of the average that needs to be accounted for, that needs to be reasoned about.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: And humans are good at at that kind of reasoning, figuring out when the situation is has these like little signals or things that suggest that it's not the average, that it's something else.
13:04
SPEAKER_00: And we're able to pick out the fact that we're in the long tail and not in the middle bulk part of that bell curve, right?
13:10
SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's happening here too, that it's picking out the things that are the most, you know, the the the the way it works is that it picks out the stuff that's in the in the middle.
13:20
SPEAKER_02: Which is very interesting because if you compare that to my clinical training, it's like, okay, we know common is common, but I was always learning and I was always trained, hey, what are the dangerous things that this could be that we need to rule out?
13:33
SPEAKER_02: And how are you gonna rule those out?
13:35
SPEAKER_00: Right.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: And it isn't building a causal model, right?
13:37
SPEAKER_00: It's not doing that.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: Whereas in your training, that's what you're doing.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
13:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
13:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
13:41
SPEAKER_02: I mean, and it's like, hey, what's the what's the list of things this could be?
13:45
SPEAKER_02: What's the differential diagnosis and how do you differentiate between them?
13:48
SPEAKER_02: And what are the do not miss things and how how can we figure that out?
13:52
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
13:53
SPEAKER_02: So I want to run through two examples from this paper because I think they provide some pretty good insight um into where there are gaps.
14:05
SPEAKER_02: And like you said, I I don't know that there are any like solutions forthcoming, maybe in the future, but um, but I think they show a little bit about how these models work and where they need more assistance.
14:17
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
14:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, the first one uh is around an asthma exacerbation.
14:23
SPEAKER_02: And so they had an uh a vignette of a 36-year-old male who was had a history of asthma who was complaining of wheezing, and they had used their inhaler four times without any relief.
14:36
SPEAKER_02: Um at this point, does this does this get your spidey sense up, down, or you're just like, I don't know.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm just like, I don't know, because I'm not a doctor, but it feels like your spidey sense is is is triggered.
14:47
SPEAKER_02: My spidey sense is already triggered because we have someone who's who's taken their home treatment, their rescue medication, and it's not done anything.
14:57
SPEAKER_02: So now I'm like, okay, well, do we have any more information?
15:00
SPEAKER_02: And they actually did give some numbers in this case.
15:03
SPEAKER_02: They said, okay, their oxygen level is 93 to 94 percent.
15:07
SPEAKER_02: That's not great.
15:09
SPEAKER_02: Um, their PCO2 is 46, which is elevated, which means they're really, they're like not able to breathe out the carbon dioxide in their lungs.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: See, that's the causal model.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: You just linked a number to a mechan mechanism in your body that is linked to that number, and you're reasoning about that causal model.
15:29
SPEAKER_02: There you go.
15:30
SPEAKER_02: So they're not expiring, they're not breathing out the CO2.
15:35
SPEAKER_02: So that makes me like, oh, this is not good.
15:38
SPEAKER_02: This person needs to be seen right now.
15:40
SPEAKER_02: And then they actually give a a peak flow, which is like another measure of how well they're they're breathing out, and it's only 62% of predicted, which, you know, that's not good either.
15:51
SPEAKER_02: So that puts them in like, ooh, red, go to the ER.
15:55
SPEAKER_02: That's that's my causal model, right?
15:57
SPEAKER_02: This is a this is an asthma exacerbation.
16:00
SPEAKER_02: The patient is not responding to treatment, and their numbers are looking like they may get worse.
16:06
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so what happened with Chat GPT Health is it says, oh, this is moderate.
16:12
SPEAKER_02: This is not clearly life-threatening, this is not an emergency.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: And for the most part, it under-triaged this case.
16:19
SPEAKER_02: And it said, you know, you could follow up within 24 to 48 hours.
16:23
SPEAKER_02: This is urgent but not emergent.
16:26
SPEAKER_02: And there were a couple other cases that went like this.
16:29
SPEAKER_02: Um, there were some emergencies it did really well on, like stroke or anaphylaxis.
16:34
SPEAKER_02: And those are things that are always emergencies, right?
16:37
SPEAKER_02: If you have a stroke, you need to go to the ER.
16:39
SPEAKER_02: I feel like everybody knows that.
16:40
SPEAKER_02: The the acronym fast, right?
16:41
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's the average, right?
16:42
SPEAKER_00: Again, we're going back to the notion of the average, the average suggestion that stroke, you know, that's most more common.
16:48
SPEAKER_00: That's the common pattern.
16:50
SPEAKER_02: Right.
16:50
SPEAKER_02: Stroke needs to go to the ER.
16:51
SPEAKER_02: Or if you're having a severe allergic reaction where you can't breathe the anaphylaxis, then you need to go to the ER and get an epiped, right?
16:58
SPEAKER_02: So that's like always the that's always the triage level.
17:02
SPEAKER_02: It's always the treatment, right?
17:03
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
17:04
SPEAKER_02: But in this case, and in another one with like diabetes where it did poorly, there's there's like a range of how someone could clinically be doing.
17:16
SPEAKER_02: Right.
17:17
SPEAKER_02: Not all asthma needs to be in the ER.
17:19
SPEAKER_02: People, people with asthma are home doing fine right now.
17:22
SPEAKER_02: You could have someone who has like a mild flair who takes a couple puffs of their inhaler at home and then they're fine.
17:28
SPEAKER_02: You could have someone who's um, you know, you could have someone who's uh who's struggling a little bit and can go to urgent care.
17:36
SPEAKER_02: Or you could have this person who's not responding to treatment, whose oxygen levels are low, whose PCO2 is going up, and they need an emergent intervention.
17:44
SPEAKER_02: And so there's this gradation here that has uh maybe some nuance to it.
17:51
SPEAKER_02: It requires this thinking about okay, where is this patient in terms of their clinical progression?
17:57
SPEAKER_02: Are they, you know, and they could be anywhere along that line.
18:01
SPEAKER_02: Yes, right.
18:02
SPEAKER_02: They could be any of those four triage levels with a history of asthma, whereas a stroke is always an emergency.
18:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:07
SPEAKER_02: Right?
18:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:08
SPEAKER_02: Um, and and so there was another example they went through with with a similar thing where someone had diabetic ketoacidosis.
18:16
SPEAKER_02: And again, you could have someone with diabetes who's well managed, who's just at home, doing fine, taking their meds.
18:24
SPEAKER_02: And then you could have someone whose, you know, sugar levels are high, but they're not having ketoacidosis.
18:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:29
SPEAKER_02: That and that needs an intervention, but is not as much of an emergency, potentially, depending on their levels, uh, as diabetic ketoacidosis, which needs to be in the ER right now.
18:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:42
SPEAKER_02: And so I I think this is an area where kind of what you were talking about, it's like it the the model's looking for, well, what's what is what what does one generally do with diabetes?
18:53
SPEAKER_02: What does one generally do with asthma?
18:55
SPEAKER_02: And in these cases, it's like every clinician looking at it said, gold standard, go to the ER.
19:01
SPEAKER_02: And ChatGPT Health got it wrong.
19:03
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
19:04
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
19:08
SPEAKER_02: The other scenario that I think was very interesting, and I was kind of surprised by if they have hundreds of clinicians overseeing this, is is the one about suicidal ideation.
19:22
SPEAKER_02: And they actually ran a bunch of case vignettes.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: Um what's suicidal ideation?
19:28
SPEAKER_02: It's when someone is thinking about killing themselves.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
19:33
SPEAKER_02: So in your mind, is that something that could be an emergency?
19:37
SPEAKER_00: Seems like it.
19:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
19:39
SPEAKER_02: It definitely could be an emergency.
19:41
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: And you can do suicide hotlines and things like that, right?
19:46
SPEAKER_00: That's typically what you what you what you ask.
19:48
SPEAKER_00: You know, you call your you call your primary care and they're not available.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: They say leave a message, but if this is an emergency, if it's a mental health emergency, then call it.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: Call 988.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: Right.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: Right.
19:57
SPEAKER_02: And so you would expect that to pop up every time someone says they're suicidal.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
20:02
SPEAKER_02: And that did not happen.
20:06
SPEAKER_02: It fired four out of the 14 times.
20:09
SPEAKER_02: That's I feel like that's something that's just like a logical thing that you could just like build in, like rules-based almost.
20:15
SPEAKER_02: Like if someone says they're thinking about suicide or has any of these like keywords that are, you know, I think I might hurt myself, I want to kill myself.
20:24
SPEAKER_02: You would just like literally have the 988 banner go up.
20:26
SPEAKER_00: So when did it not fire?
20:28
SPEAKER_02: It did not fire 10 out of the 14 times.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: And and do we do do we know more about why?
20:34
SPEAKER_00: Or sorry, what the circumstances were when it did not fire?
20:37
SPEAKER_02: We don't know more about why, but the circumstances are actually really interesting because they are inversely related to clinical severity.
20:49
SPEAKER_02: So one of the things that we do clinically when someone says they're suicidal is we try to suss out.
20:55
SPEAKER_02: Like, hey, is this active?
20:57
SPEAKER_02: Is this passive?
20:57
SPEAKER_02: Like, are they actually thinking about doing it?
20:59
SPEAKER_02: There's a difference between someone who's like, uh, uh, you know, my mood isn't good.
21:04
SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking about hurting myself.
21:05
SPEAKER_02: I I'm I've been very sad lately.
21:08
SPEAKER_02: And they may not have, and you say, Hey, do you have a do you have a plan?
21:11
SPEAKER_02: What are you, what are you thinking about doing?
21:12
SPEAKER_02: And they're like, oh no, I don't, I don't really have a plan.
21:15
SPEAKER_02: I'm just, I'm just thinking about it, but I just, I, I'm not feeling well right now.
21:19
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
21:20
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
21:21
SPEAKER_02: That is lower risk than someone who says, Hey, I'm suicidal, and you ask them, hey, what's your plan?
21:28
SPEAKER_02: And they say, Oh, I'm planning to take um a handful of these five pills, and then I want to fall asleep and never wake up.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
21:36
SPEAKER_02: That's a very different situation when someone has like a discrete plan, or I'm gonna, you know, get a gun and here's where the gun is, and here's where the bullets are, and I'm gonna shoot myself.
21:47
SPEAKER_02: Those are the things that make you very worried.
21:50
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
21:51
SPEAKER_02: There are other things that make you worried too, right?
21:53
SPEAKER_02: But when someone has like a very discrete, straightforward plan, those are the things.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: Things that you're like, oh, well, this person needs to be in the ER.
22:02
SPEAKER_02: This person needs to call 988.
22:04
SPEAKER_02: They need help right away.
22:06
SPEAKER_02: And so that is the opposite of what happened.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: Those are the ones that didn't get the hotline number.
22:11
SPEAKER_02: They did not get the hotline number.
22:12
SPEAKER_02: So the guardrail did not work as well for them.
22:15
SPEAKER_02: The guardrail worked better for people who had this sort of passive idea that they might want to harm themselves, but they didn't have a plan.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: Which is like, that's not good.
22:27
SPEAKER_01: It's not good at all.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: It almost seems like the model backed off when the person was certain.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: And the model was like, all right, seems like you know what you're doing.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: Which is opposite, right?
22:37
SPEAKER_00: And that's terrible.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: That's that's that's not what you want.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: And presumably that the safety guardrails completely failed in that regard.
22:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:47
SPEAKER_02: And if you look at um one of the things that people use clinic clinically is and can be administered kind of by anyone, is this Columbia suicide um severity rating scale.
23:03
SPEAKER_02: And it basically, I guess you could even program this into Chat GPT Alpha, I don't know, but it basically asks the questions like, have you wished you were dead?
23:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, have you actually had any thoughts about killing yourself?
23:14
SPEAKER_02: And then it escalates it to say, have you thought about how you might do this?
23:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:19
SPEAKER_02: Have you had any intention of acting on those thoughts?
23:22
SPEAKER_02: Have you started to work on the details of how you would kill yourself?
23:26
SPEAKER_02: That is what is used as like a triage method.
23:30
SPEAKER_02: And it it's like it did the opposite.
23:34
SPEAKER_02: It didn't, yeah, but even when there was a plan, it wasn't like, oh, let me flag this.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's a it's a lack of a model again, right?
23:40
SPEAKER_00: There there exists a model for triaging and it didn't use it.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's again the lack of the ability for it to maintain a model of what's happening.
23:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:50
SPEAKER_02: So this this paper makes me think, not surprisingly, after this discussion, that Chat GPT Health still needs a lot of work.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
24:00
SPEAKER_02: Especially when it comes to triaging and symptom checking, which people are gonna use it for all the time.
24:10
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
24:11
SPEAKER_02: And it really is not doing well at the extremes, which is problematic both for emergencies and for non urgent cases alike.
24:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:22
SPEAKER_02: So I think we can we can end there and we will see you next time on Code and Cure.
24:27
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining us.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: Bye bye.