Latest / Honey Badger Radio / Speaking With Gender Equalist and Non-Feminist Elizabeth Jack | Fireside Chat 231

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Speaking With Gender Equalist and Non-Feminist Elizabeth Jack | Fireside Chat 231 · Honey Badger Radio

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Hello, everybody, Welcome on Honey Badger Radio. My name is Brian and
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this is the Fireside Chat. We are a number two hundred and thirty one
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fireside Chat episodes at least. Today we have a special guest, Elizabeth Jack.
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Elizabeth is an American equalist who writes about gender issues, focusing primarily on
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sexual domestic abuse. She has a left leaning but non feminist approach to gender
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and a pawnchant, a pawnchant for debate. So welcome to the show,
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Elizabeth, Thanks thanks for having me. Yeah, so I watched your talk
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that you did. I think it was for Cafe Yeah, yeah, yeah,
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yeah, and it was well that was probably a while ago, is
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that Is that fair, like a few years ago? Yeah? Yeah,
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I think twenty nineteen sounds right. And you've been I guess like we should
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give a little backstories to like how you came to be on this show.
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So you used to be there. They're on Facebook. In the back in
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the Stone Age, there was a in internet years that's basically like you know,
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cretaceous period, we had a Facebook group. It was not the one
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managed by us, but it was like you know, people who were fans
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put it together and it was very active for a while, or a lot
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of people on there, and of course, you know, because it's the
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it's the Internet, people fight and things like that. But it was good
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for a while, and I know that you were part of it, because
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I guess I was adding people as friends from that group that, you know,
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if they said something or if I liked their posts or whatever, you
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know, I would I would just add them. I'd be like, oh,
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this person's from this group, right, So if you're active in the
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conversation, is how I saw it, I would add you. So I
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guess like that's how that started. And then that book, that group it
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got shut down by Facebook years ago. I don't remember exactly what it was.
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It was, you know, we violated the terms, which were kind
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of like constantly change. I don't know who it was specifically. It wasn't
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me. I'm not band on Facebook. I'm banned on Twitter, so that's
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different, you know, But that did happen, and so like everybody kind
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of the you know, went into their own little circles, and yet I
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was still in touch with people like you and a few others. And I
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saw you made a post and I don't want to I don't want to misquote
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you, but you had criticisms of either the Honey Badger or radio Facebook group,
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the Honey Badgers in general, or the men's rights movement in a more
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broad sense. And I don't, like I said, I just I don't
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want to tell you what you were saying. I want to ask you,
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like, help me clarify, because I don't you know, it was it
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was a while ago. And then right after that, I said, hey,
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you want to talk about it, you know, and I went into
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your comments and then we you know, we ended up talking to each other
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and set this up. So give me a little bit of what your thoughts
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are about that. Yeah. Sure, So I'll take a step back first,
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because I kind of have a lot of hills to die on about how
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like human rights movements market themselves in general, like not just the MRM,
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not just you guys, not just anybody in particular, but like any movement.
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I feel like we as people are pretty bad at talking across the aisle,
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and we don't really think about advocating as marketing, but it is marketing.
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So when I see us sort of allying with people whose interests are not
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the same as ours, I kind of or like when I see us I
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sort of delving into like really jargony sort of discourse with people who are not
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already a part of our move meant or even like like God bless him,
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I get what Paullum's trying to do, but you know, there is there
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is a problem when when people kind of approach the normies that way, right,
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like, and then people like you and me have to go like no,
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no, no, no, no, no no, you don't understand
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that's you know, that's not what we're doing here. Yeah, and you
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know kind of like explain that to the normies, right yeah. So,
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I like my criticism was largely about in that particular post, was largely about
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how we active like do activism and and advocacy as a movement, and how
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we have kind of reached a point where we've stopped differentiating ourselves as hard from
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some of those more traditionalist movements that I think are like fundamentally incompatible with men's
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rights. We can that sounds like something we should dig a little deeper into.
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But first I guess you're I don't know if it's your gain, but
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you're peaking a little bit like there's a little bit of a when you make
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like an S sound or a T sound, it like clicks. There's like
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a bit of feedback. So I don't know if it's your gain or whatever,
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but we'll we'll just try. We'll see if there's if that changes,
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I don't know if you can make any adjustments. But otherwise I can hear
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you fine, it's not like there's you know, so okay, so I
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think I know what you mean. I have. It's you know, it's
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tough, Like I feel like I'll put it to you this way. I
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started doing this work ten years ago, and ten years ago I was pretty
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I considered myself to be pretty solidly on the left in terms of my politics,
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and and I never thought that men's rights should be something that needs should
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be part of it. Like I didn't think it should be. I know,
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I know, and I still don't think it should be. But as
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I've been doing this more and more, and most of what I do I
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don't I don't, I guess. For to be clear, I don't consider
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what I do here activism because I think activism is like maybe I just have
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like an incomplete picture of what it is. But to me, activism is
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like you know, rallies and protests and you know, campaigns and things like
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that. And I am more of an advocate I would. I'll talk about
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stuff right, and and I try to do it in well again, I
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try to do it in a non partisan fashion, and and I think that
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over the years, I've changed my outlook a lot. Part of it is
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for me, it's about I'm trying to be practical because I think that.
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And I mean Allison probably she's the person who runs Honey Badger Radio. She
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probably doesn't see eye to eye with me on this, but Allison's always says
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that we need something completely new, right, like a new way to like
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organize everything right, a new story that we all operate under. And I
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don't as ms as Honey Badgers, as as MRAs as just like as a
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society like the because we're in a world now where men's contributions are not just
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taken for granted. I mean they're actively shit on, they're frowned upon,
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they're criticized there, you know, And this isn't this isn't even getting into
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anything dealing with the legal or the political or the actual like policies and things
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that we want to change because the thing is what I've come to realize is
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that if you can't change people's opinions or attitudes about men as a group,
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then you you're like, you're never gonna get support. So if I say,
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well, what about prostate cancer, and people laugh at me and they
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say, well, that doesn't really happened, and I'm like, well,
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look at how much breast cancer gets, you know, for funding versus how
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much prostate cancer gets, and they will, you know, people will just
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they we have this. It's not just a blind spot, you know,
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like there's a blind spot. Like if you tell people, well, you
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know, men in the Middle East, they have a bunch of problems all
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their own, people will say, no, that's impossible, Like it's impossible.
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And I think it's it's got to do with the way that we view
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men as a group and the way that we view women as a group.
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And I think it's an op it's a it's a massive obstacle, and where
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things are getting so bad now that it's you can't even begin, like I
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said, you can't even begin talking about things like, you know, male
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suicide and paternity rights and father absence without saying we have to care about men.
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I mean, people take for granted that men essentially maintain the infrastructure,
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you know, like you and I are talking to each other because of men
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right right now? Yeah, so so like, uh, I think then
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I guess I'm I'm getting a little I'm getting into the weeds. What I'm
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wondering about is what do you think about? Because I don't know what Alison
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is proposing, But but your concerns seem to be that there is a what
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like a conservative like push happening or like what are what are the things that
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you're worried about? Yeah, so I don't I don't care if somebody's like
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liberal or conservative, right, Like, I don't care what your thoughts are
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in economics or like immigration or you know, all of this other that has
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nothing to do with me. I'm not worried about that. But when I
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see, like when I'm talking to somebody and they call themselves a men's advocate,
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and I'm like, cool, what do you mean by that? You
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know, what do you think about the draft? And they're like, oh,
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well, why wouldn't you want to fight for your country? You pussy?
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And you know I talk to them about domestic abuse, and well,
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what you you're not going to fight back. She's half your size, And
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I'm like, oh, you're not an MRA, You're a traditionalist, no
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interest in these issues. I'm not even sure one of those people in our
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discourse space. Yeah, Like I think that means we've marketed ourselves wrong.
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That's that's that's possible. So we're talking about I mean, I guess from
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your perspective, you're talking about tactics or approaches or maybe optics to some degree,
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Like you have people that still have a lot of bluepill thinking that are
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sort of in the space. But I would, I would, I would
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say, I would dare to say, though, there is when it comes
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to things like the ones you brought up like that, you know, why
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are why are you know, why don't you fight back? Or why are
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you letting this woman beat you up? Or why aren't you dying for your
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country? Or whatever? Those do strike initially as traditionalists, but feminists believe
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in that stuff too, So yeah, I mean yeah, so like it's
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it's no, they do, they do, And there's I mean, I
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have a thing about how feminism is like traditionalism masquerading as progressivism in a number
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of ways, and like might too to your point, and to my point,
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what I think we should be doing is uh, seeing these incoming people
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as people to red bill, not people that are already on our side.
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You know, we need to think about them as like somebody we need to
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talk to you across the aisle, just like we do with feminists. Yeah,
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like we we like It's like we assume that because they're like in our
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groups, in our like discussion forums, that they're already with us, and
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a lot of the time they're not. They they got there because they had
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this arithmetic in their heads where they said, Okay, feminists are left and
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I'm on the right. Therefore any non feminist space or any anti feminist space
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must be like people that already agree with me. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
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And that's that's also tricky. I mean, I do, I do
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say this a lot, that feminism does come from the left, but that
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the issue is not feminism itself, but rather valuing the female perspective over the
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male perspective, because there are plenty of women on the right, or conservative
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women and the men that support them that will essentially advocate for the exact same
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stuff. So it's not really I mean, you know, I've talked about
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this on my show a lot. And I know that I've put pissed people
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off or confused them, But I think that left and right is in a
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way it's it's feminine and masculine. And the way that it sort of like
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bears out. This has nothing to do with things like religion or you know,
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traditional values or whatever. It's nothing to do with those. It's about,
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like, you know, whether or not you value security or if you
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value liberty, and women tend to value security and mental potent of value liberty.
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And that's where the clash has and that's why we have two wings and
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so, but setting that aside, I think more importantly than that, or
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even like bigger picture than that, is there are feminine ways of seeing the
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world, of operating within the world, and there are masculine ways. And
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and feminine doesn't mean women, because there are men who operate in those feminine
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ways, and there are women who operate in those masculine ways. Like you're
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talking about like pre industrial erge types. Yeah, sort of like like my
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like the people I work with, Honey Badger Radio was created by women.
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It's run by women. I'm I'm the producer, but like I work for
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women mainly right. And these women are women that like the way that Alison
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puts it is they it's like to be it's like seeing the consequences of your
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actions and being like gay or your your value or your worth being gay,
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like you know, judged by that. Right. So women, women tend
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to not see the world as how they affect it, but rather how it
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affects them, and men see it the other way around. Well, because
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that's how they're taught, you know, Yeah, we teach we teach are
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young girls that like the world revolves around them and that you know, everything
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needs to be comfortable for them, and you know, we teach our young
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boys that they need to make it comfortable for women. Yeah, exactly.
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And so but that that has like hasn't really, I don't think. Not
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only do I not think it's changed. I think it's gotten more extreme in
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that way. And I think that absolutely, yeah, And because of that,
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I think men, young young men are trying to break free of it.
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And that's why I don't know, if you saw this data, this
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recent data that said Generation Z men or boys are becoming more and more right
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wing and Generation Z girls are becoming more and more left wing. And because
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the left panders to women and humanizes men. Yeah, like it's going to
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join a club that hates them, right of course, of course. And
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but what I'm but I think even though that's the way that they describe it
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is left and right, I think it's more like men moving towards like they
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want to be free from the you know, from like authority. They want
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to be able to operate freely. They don't want to have to like essentially
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serve women, or serve the state, or serve whatever. And women are
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looking these young girls, they're looking for men to serve them. And that's
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why that's how I don't think. See they're describing as left and right or
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conservative at liberal, but it's not that. It's it's the men are are
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grasping at masculinity whatever they can get their hands on. Right. That's why
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people like Andrew Tay are popular. It's not because he is an icon or
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some kindness, because he's unabashedly masculinely. He just says this is what I
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am, even if it's a kind of cartoony version, which I think it
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is. But it doesn't matter because when you're a teenage boy and there's you
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know, a high likelihood you don't know who your father is because your mother
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excluded him from your life. You're going to look for some other icon or
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model to go after. And that's what they're doing. And meanwhile, the
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girls are getting what you said, the constant like propaganda about you know,
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girl power and all this, but it is all so like so there there's
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there's a larger division between men and women now in this youngest generation than there
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was before, which in a way, well, I think it's obviously like
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a part of feminism. What I'm getting at is like men's uh, these
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young men they're they're they're only going to these places because they don't know where
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else to go. And you're right, the left is offering them nothing.
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I mean, did you see Shoe on Head? Do you know who that
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is? Yeah? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. I thought she
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had a really insightful video. Yeah yeah so that did you see that?
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Then? You you saw because we've we used to have Shoe on our show
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like all the time, like way back in twenty fifteen or something, and
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she's still friends with us like on social media and stuff. And she went
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through and she was like, well, here, what the people on might
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say to the defense are saying about men, and you know, it's just
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demonization. And she even made recommendations. She was like, well, here
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are some good guys. And I looked at them and they were they're all
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feminists. I mean it's the same, it's the same song and dance.
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They're not going to change anything because they haven't. They haven't been able to
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figure out that all men want is to be left to do. What they
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want to do is to realize their own potential without interference, without people telling
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them what they have to do. You know what, Yeah, what a
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man in what a man isn't And you know, uh, most people are
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guilty of that. They think that man is something you become. Women is
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something you are, right, that's an interesting dichotomy. Yeah, like there's
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no Well, what I mean is is that a boy. Uh let's go
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to ancient cultures. Okay, when you were in a tribe and you're a
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boy and you are coming of age whatever that is, maybe thirteen or something,
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there is like you know, a kind of a they do some kind
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of ritual or there'd be some some trial, right that the adult men would
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put the boy through. Maybe they take him on a hunt with him or
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something, and when he comes back, he is basically referred to as a
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man now because he has done something right, some some service to the tribe.
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Right. This is like the hero's journey, which is like you know,
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Joseph Campbell's archetype story, which has been used in like all the most
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popular films, of a person, usually a boy or a young man,
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in like a mundane life and then something pulls him out of that into a
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world outside. It's Star Wars basically, and then he comes back and he's
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different, right, It's the Hobbit. It's countless other examples story. Yeah,
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every epic story that involves that that sort of cycle. With women,
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there used to be something like that, but there isn't anymore. And I
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don't know when it changed. I think probably in the last one hundred years
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or so. But the idea of a woman becoming a girl becoming a woman
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and that comes with, you know, sort of parallel or complimentary responsibilities,
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it doesn't exist in women now. Women are basically they have nothing that they're
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expected to do. And I think the reason for that is things like the
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feminist movement that have said, well, women are perfect already. This is
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why you get the kinds of female stories you get now, right, where
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women just have to realize that they're awesome and there's nothing to learn and there's
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nothing to grow because there's no because there can be no recognition of your impact
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on the world as a woman. And I mean one could say that one
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of the ways that I think that that does change for women is when they
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have children, because I think that's where that's the one thing that makes women
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different from men. Right. But and you can see that in some like
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if I wanted to use pop culture, I assume you're a nerd like me.
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Yeah, so like you if you've seen like Terminator or Aliens, those
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are the those are examples like Sarah conn is protecting her son, right and
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Ellen Ripley's protecting this girl. So like that's there's like this motherhood thing that
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is like you know that, that's why they're successful because we on some deep
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level where like this is real, right, even if it involves cyborgs from
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the future or aliens, it doesn't matter because it's that's the root of this
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is a real thing. And right, And meanwhile, we're told that like
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people like Captain Marvel are the first female protagonists. Yeah, exactly, you
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know, and yeah, And a lot of people will say, well,
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that's just what you know. I've heard this from I don't want to call
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I don't want to necessarily name their politics, but they're people who generally were
20:42
a political but they were interested in pop culture. They will say, well,
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they're just making these men into these women, and they're just having them
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behave like men. But that's not true either, because the men have to
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they have like an arc, they have to overcome something, they have to
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recognize the pact of their actions on the world. And these Captain Marvel characters,
21:03
they don't. They're just perfect and people just have to figure that out.
21:07
Right. So Ellen Ripley did have that arch. She did have to
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come and you know, she got her ass kicked and she had to come
21:14
back and keep going. Well that, but it was the thing we didn't
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We didn't root for her because she was already great. We know, we
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were afraid for her. That This is what Why are the well, I
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mean, I know we're getting into like pop culture stuff, but just just
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a minor digression, if you'll entertain me. Why are the protagonists of every
21:32
horror movie a woman? Almost every horror movie because we care about what happens
21:37
to them. Yes, we don't want them to get killed by the big
21:38
scary slasher guy. And and so like there is like a place, you
21:44
know, in our collective unconscious I guess, where we have a certain way
21:48
that we you know, relate to women in the same way that we late
21:52
to men. But I think that's become really skewed culturally speaking. And so
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if the culture is meaning that way, and like young people are coming up
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in this and they're seeing it, I do think a lot of this is
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evolved or it's natural, it's part of our nature. But the extra push
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is definitely socialized, which is what you were talking about, right, Like,
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you do this enough and women will grow up believing that they're they can.
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First of all, nothing they do matters right because they don't have an
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impact. That means that they do something immoral, it doesn't matter, right.
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So I guess I don't think we really disagree that much on the the
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what you were concerned with, Like this, people who are basically still blue
22:42
pilled or maybe purple pilled that are talking about men in a less sympathetic way
22:48
than they should because I think That's that's the important problem, right, Yeah,
22:53
it is. And I think we could, we could, we would
22:57
really benefit from like making a point to differentiate ourselves from that, because that's
23:03
the stereotype, right, I mean, it's not the only stereotype about us,
23:07
but this idea that we want to roll things back, that you know,
23:10
we want men in the field and women in the kitchen. And you
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know, we criticize feminists for not calling out their own crazies or for not
23:17
calling out their own misguided members, and and you know, I try to
23:22
make a point, you know, when I'm out there, when I'm talking
23:23
to people, I try to make a point like this is what you think
23:26
we are. It's not what we are. And the person who says that
23:29
doesn't speak for me. And really they really don't speak for the movement in
23:32
general. No, I would say they don't, although I would ask,
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though, what do you think general relations should look like? Like? If
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you could, if you you have like an idea of what it like,
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what the I don't know, what the society you want to look like appears
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to be. Yeah, you just mean, like how men and women interact
23:56
with each other? Yeah, Like how would how would we want the world,
23:59
like our society arranged so that it looks more like what you want,
24:04
Like whatever, the fairness or justice or equality or whatever. I want,
24:10
equality under the law, I want, honestly, I just I want like
24:15
a certain level of gender blindness. Not like I mean, I understand there
24:18
are going to be like differences, right, especially physiological stuff. But you
24:22
know, like I understand that you're going to have way more firefighters that are
24:26
men, way more soldiers that are men. That's fine. I don't care
24:27
about that. But when you're interacting with a person, you know, I
24:33
would like for us not to make assumptions about who they are and what they're
24:36
like based on gender stereotypes. You know, like I go to a lot
24:40
of you know, like I'll go to a party and I'll hear somebody just
24:42
like casually say, you know, when you're walking down an alley and you
24:45
see a guy, so you're scared, And I'm like, how do you
24:48
feel that way about Muslims? Do you feel that way about racial minorities?
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The hell is wrong with you? You know, Like I would like a
24:52
world where we stop that. And you know, I like you mentioned maybe
24:57
this is evolutionary, and maybe maybe it is, but we are humans.
25:02
We put somebody on the moon, we have indoor plumbing, we have alarm
25:04
clocks. We subvert our nature for the way we function in society every day.
25:11
You know, if we can do that, if we can get up
25:14
before the sun, if we can you know, poop inside, we can
25:18
figure out how to not be so just like dinocentric, I agree. I
25:22
think that we can, like I would. Okay, this is why I
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said that, because I think that to some degree, men will always put
25:30
women before themselves. To some degree, I think that it's been it's been
25:34
hyper amplified, and I think there's a reason for it, you know,
25:38
the limiting factor being reproduction. But also I think maybe we have Yeah,
25:42
we have been if you consider that we've been sexually selected from the beginning.
25:48
You know, if I'm just making the evolutionary argument for it, I could.
25:52
I think that if a man sacrifice himself for his wife for whatever reason,
25:59
like felt like he had to, I wouldn't I wouldn't call that gnocentric.
26:04
I think that sometimes I think the word gotocentrism gets thrown around a little
26:07
bit too much, because I think that the men have a nature, like
26:11
I said, and it's okay. I just don't want that to get you
26:15
know, blown out of proportion. I think that where that begins, where
26:18
we can change that is what what we're lacking is is that women are not
26:29
getting respect. And when I say that, because people are like, what
26:33
what do you mean that, You're yeah, like respect, and men are
26:37
not getting loved. So I think that when I say respect, yeah,
26:42
yeah, Tim Gold is exactly. It's like women are not earning anything,
26:48
but they're expected to get love and they do unconditionally. And I think that
26:52
has to change. But the only way that will change is if women are
26:53
held accountable to a degree commensurate with men, and men should also get love
27:02
without you know, condition to some degree. Again, I know that men
27:06
prefer to earn, and I'm only saying that speaking as a man, you
27:10
know, but I would imagine that women would like that too. They'd like
27:12
to know that they worked hard and did something, and people are like,
27:15
hey, you did well, like my today's my birthday, by the way,
27:18
happy birthday. Yeah, thank you. You'll never believe how old I
27:22
am. But anyway, my wife, we don't have a lot of money,
27:27
and so my wife was like, well, what do you want for
27:30
your birthday, and I was like, you know what, I don't care.
27:33
And she will offer to get me a cake, but I'm like,
27:34
you know, we're not eating any carbs, no sugar, and no nothing.
27:37
And so what she made me was my favorite. So I'm my family's
27:44
from Puerto Rico. I grew up in Chicago. In Chicago, we would
27:47
get this little Puerto Rican restaurant down the street from my house that I used
27:49
to go to and pick up what we call carne frita, which is basically
27:53
it's like pork belly cut into cubes and deep fried. Is delicious. All
27:57
it is is pork okay, And my wife got some and she cooked it
28:02
for me and I ate it, and I thought, man, this is
28:03
the best thing that you have ever done. Like I was so grateful,
28:07
and of course she loves to hear that. So my point being, I
28:11
know that women want to get props for something like they really did, as
28:17
opposed to oh, well you're a woman, therefore right, that's just and
28:19
men wouldn't want that either, So I guess what I what I think needs
28:23
to change is that we need to present women have to be accountable in the
28:30
same way that men are, so I don't have it. You know.
28:33
I'm not the kind of person that thinks men should ever be blamed if they
28:36
do something wrong. Obviously we want to lean that way, and I guess
28:40
you wrong them out, we should, yeah, of course, and we
28:44
should do the same for women. That's where because I think that that's probably
28:49
the primary disparity. I mean, I just saw a story. It's not
28:55
a story. It was a clip from an interview, and there was this
28:57
woman. She was on a podcast, and she was talking about how she
29:02
was angry with a man she was dating, and so she made like she
29:08
he had kids with somebody else, and she called Child Protective Services and told
29:15
him that told told them that his kids were in trouble and that he was
29:18
doing something to his kids because she was just angry at him and wanted to
29:22
get back at him. And the cop showed up at this guy's house,
29:25
fortunately like his even get his kids taken away from him. But the point
29:29
is she did that, and and everybody end the po they were laughing about
29:32
it, you know, and I was like, you see, this is
29:36
when I say, you know, like there's problems with false allegations. There's
29:38
problems with women using the you know, the police state against men or using
29:45
whatever, like they use the government, they use other men. Right,
29:48
this is a big problem because the it's it's not just because they're doing it,
29:55
it's that they can do it and there will be what no consequences,
29:59
Like she was literally on a podcast joking about it. This is what I
30:02
mean by accountability Schumer bragging about sexually. It's hosting a drunk and conscious person.
30:07
Yeah, or raised across the country for it. Yeah, and Cardi
30:10
B. You know, the would Cardi B like bragged about how she would
30:14
have sex with men and while they were I guess she would drug them or
30:18
something and then she would rob them, you know, and so like you
30:22
know, and then what she's like a multimillion dollar musician, like she can
30:25
just say that nobody goes wait a minute, like Johnny Depp almost like lost.
30:29
Everything happens to Lizzo after the allegations. Yeah, yeah, And I
30:36
mean, you know, we are talking about celebrities. But it's a good
30:38
example, you know, one of the things we do on our channel.
30:42
So I guess I should make it clear that whatever goes on to the whatever
30:48
used to go on at the Honey Badger Radio Facebook group is not what we
30:51
do on the show. So you're, yeah, it's like you're gonna get
30:56
You're gonna get people that are probably gonna put their foot in their mouth or
30:57
they're figuring things out. That's you know, I'm maybe I'm a little I'm
31:02
really charitable because I know that people are coming at this is like a completely
31:07
unique perspective that no one has. Like in general, SOO is more geared
31:14
towards like movement members who are like trying to keep up to date on like
31:19
the issues and the current events, and rightly, are most of your audience,
31:22
like yeah, you know there are there aren't like regular people walking around
31:26
the street who have no idea about any of this, who you know are
31:29
going to listen to this and go like, oh you had so and so
31:32
on the show that people you think, yeah, yeah, I do.
31:34
So I do try to get guests from different walks of life so that people
31:38
can't easily like throw us into a box. They will anyway, they will
31:44
anyway because this is what the media does right like like right now, I
31:47
think like when the red pill comes up in any conversation on the mainstream,
31:52
like if you're looking at BBC or CBC or whatever it is, right,
31:57
they're going to basically say oh Andrew, hey, oh fresh and fit oh
32:01
you know, the the mannisphere like these guys. And it's like, well,
32:06
we we can't control what those guys do or say. And and sometimes
32:09
I think that they become really popular and it's kind of artificial, Like no,
32:15
it's okay. Sometimes I think they become popular artificially because like you know,
32:21
you're like I've been doing this for ten years and nobody knows who we
32:23
are, and yet you know, Andrew Taate is huge or whatever, and
32:28
it's because he's like he's he's like a perfect straw man of what we are,
32:34
you know. So he's inflammatory in a way that ye yeah, yeah,
32:37
yeah exactly, and it's you know, it does it's very like status
32:38
quo for all the for all the stuff he says that's inflammatory. Like he
32:44
also he wants men to be meat shields. Yeah, you know, he
32:46
talks a lot about that, Like that's very traditional. Yeah, he's totally
32:52
traditionalist. I mean a lot of these guys are. But what my point
32:55
is is that, yeah, so we don't really get heard and we end
32:59
up fighting the propaganda more than just talking about the issues, and that's what
33:04
we try to do. So, like what our channel exists for mostly is
33:07
to equip people with the knowledge to talk about this stuff in public without well,
33:15
I mean, I don't know if you can avoid any aggression because people
33:19
have like a knee jerk reaction to criticism against women. But but yeah,
33:23
we try to help people understand this is what is going on in the world.
33:28
This is why you know these things are talked about in this way.
33:32
Anyway, I'm not so I will ask this though, because this is like
33:37
the thing that I'm running up against right now. So I would like all
33:43
the things that you said I want. I want justice, right, so
33:46
we call it equality under the law. I just want things to be just.
33:50
I just want like people to be gender blind, as it were.
33:52
Right, if somebody does a crime or they're trying to get custody of their
33:58
kids or whatever, their genders should not factor in. Okay. But then
34:04
there's like the other thing is is that I think in general most men and
34:08
women want to like pair up, find someone to love, you know,
34:15
marry them, and start a family. I think that that and we can
34:20
call that trad but I think that's what just I don't. I don't even
34:22
think calling it traditional is necessarily accurate because I think this is just what most
34:29
people want. There's a million ways to like actually approach that, yeah,
34:34
you know, and that you could do it in a traditional way, you
34:36
could do it in a non traditional way. But I think most people do
34:38
want like a long term live in partner and kids. Yeah, yeah,
34:43
exactly exactly like I'm married, no kids yet. We're working on it.
34:47
But but yeah, I don't. I don't think of our relationship as like,
34:52
you know, whatever trad is, even though she does do a lot
34:55
of it cooking. But but but I never said that's what she has to
34:59
do, right, and we both were to cook. That's fine. Most
35:01
people cook, yeah exactly. That's not even saying that women cook like they're
35:07
adults. Yeah. Sure, So, so I got some super chows.
35:13
I'm gonna read them really quick. Fresh water Squid didn't send a message,
35:17
but sent us three different donations five dollars, twenty five dollars, and twenty
35:22
dollars. So thank you, freshwater Squid. I think I have a sound
35:27
effect for you. Let me go ahead and play that. So a flu
35:36
cash and fireside chat number two thirty one, sends us five dollars and says,
35:42
Hi, Elizabeth, I agree in the sense that an individual, individualist
35:45
evaluation of a person should be considered over an evaluation based on groups and stereotypes.
35:52
But do you think a world where we do not consider stereotypes is possible?
35:55
I think human nature implicitly built in our ability to evaluate through stereo types.
36:00
Do you disagree? Can you explain your thoughts here? Thanks, That's
36:04
a really good question. It's a really interesting question. I like, I
36:07
think we're always going to form heuristics based on our experience. So if you
36:13
go through the world and you know, when you talk to feminists who they've
36:15
been in like a string of abusive relationships and they like automatically stereotype. You
36:21
know, if they're heterosexual, they're like, oh men are violent, Oh
36:23
men are abusive. Like they didn't do that on purpose, that that was
36:28
their experience, So they formed a stereotype. And that's I mean, we
36:32
should question that, we should ask them to question that. But I think
36:37
inevitably stereotypes are going to occur, and we just kind of need to have
36:42
and we do as a society, not about men, and you know,
36:45
that's the problem. But as a society, we do have conversations about like,
36:49
Okay, you may have seen a lot of people that look like this
36:52
and do this, But the problem comes in when you make the assumption that
36:58
someone who looks like that does that. H Well, thank you fireside Chat
37:06
number two thirty one, ala ala. So if you guys have any other
37:12
questions or comments, you can send a super chat or super chow. Super
37:15
chows are here or super chats are here, and I will read them on
37:19
the air. So what do you think about Well, let me ask you
37:23
this. How long have you been doing this kind of work? Fifteen years?
37:30
Fifteen years? Yeah, in a minute, yeah yeah, And do
37:32
you feel like in the last fifteen years, Uh, you have changed?
37:38
We all changed, but like, yeah, what what? In what ways
37:43
do you think you've changed? I learned to touch grass a little bit,
37:49
like I used to be. I used to be the person who, like
37:53
I thought there was a war, you know, and men and women hated
37:57
each other and like everything was awful and uh, and like i'd be that
38:02
person at a party, right, yeah, let's interrupt every conversation, like
38:07
why are we even partying? Right now? There's no time smash. Yeah,
38:10
like I started talking in one of his movies. Yeah yeah, And
38:16
I just I kind of learned how to like how to do that a little
38:21
bit more diplomatically. Yeah, you know, I was. I was really
38:23
agro. I was really like confrontational, and I just kind of learned that,
38:30
like that is not how you get people on your side. Like I
38:35
really admire Daryl Davis, who is not a men's rights activist but is a
38:38
very oh's some other who hung out with the clan. Yeah yeah, yeah,
38:43
yeah, yeah, yeah, Like he just walked right into the lions
38:45
Den and started making friends with people and like no joke, converted converted klansmen
38:51
out of racism with the power of friendship. Like that. That guy is
38:53
a huge hero of mine. And I'm like, well, I could go
38:59
and shout at pop about their like tacit misentry, or I could befriend people,
39:07
talk to them like a human being, meet them where they are,
39:08
and you know, try and gently get them to question some of the stuff
39:12
they believe that might be harmful. Why do you think they didn't kill him
39:16
right away? I think because it's a really interesting I mean, I know
39:25
this is really dark, but I'm I'm just saying if it's the KKK,
39:30
and I'm not saying I doubt this, but why wouldn't they just erase him
39:34
and hide the body and cover for each other. And then he's just gone,
39:37
like, yeah, why did they let him in and even talk to
39:40
him to begin with? If there wasn't already like some hope there because he
39:49
did this thing. This is my opinion. I Like, I don't know
39:51
the guy, you know, I've never met him, but I think he
39:55
does something that advocates don't you usually do, which is sit politely and listen
40:04
to the person he thinks is harming everybody, Like he gives them courtesy first,
40:10
sure, and he meets them where they are, and they see him
40:15
as non threatening. They give him an opportunity to be what I call a
40:20
polite counter example to their you know, preconceived notions, and the cognitive dissonance
40:28
starts to become hard to ignore. Yeah, you know, if you can't
40:32
you can't hate black people if you've never like sat down and talked to one
40:37
right right or like or like if you have sat down and talk to one
40:39
is what I mean. Like you you eventually learned like, oh well,
40:44
this guy's all right, yeah, I just I just wonder about that because
40:50
you know, I think that we have an idea in our head of what
40:53
a group like the KKK is like, and then you hear this story and
40:57
it's like, well, wait, how is he not lynched? Like?
41:00
How is And I think it's because, well, you know what, they're
41:01
people too, and maybe they have you know, like one thing I've learned
41:07
is that And I'm not saying this about the KKK per se, but I
41:10
mean in general when it comes to like associations with groups. I had a
41:15
guest on named Naama Kates, and Nama does a series of podcasts. She
41:21
used to do, like a Crime, one of those real crime podcasts,
41:24
and she looked into Alec Menascian, the guy who ran down people in like
41:31
a van in Toronto, I think it was in Canada, and he was
41:37
reported by the media as an in cell. Later it turned out that he
41:42
was like just really stressed out his job and he lied about being an in
41:45
cell and that being the reason. But it doesn't really matter. It put
41:49
her on this path she wouldn't ended up on down going down the rabbit hole
41:52
of like understanding in cells, and she did a series of videos and she's
41:57
very sympathetic, and I've had her on the show a few times. She's
41:59
kind of a recurring guests on our talk show on Thursdays. But what was
42:04
really interesting was, and I knew this was true, but I didn't really
42:07
have confirmation, but she spoke to some people about this, is that a
42:12
lot of very radical groups and this goes for you know, Antifa, Black
42:17
Lives Matter, but also skinheads, Neo Nazis, radical Islamists, etc.
42:24
These kinds of groups, they attract men like in cells to get to join
42:34
them because these men are looking for a place to belong, they're looking for
42:38
the Yeah, they're looking for a cause. Though. See like like this
42:44
is something I've been talking about recently, is that men I think need a
42:49
purpose more than anything else. They need a purpose because they're not they don't
42:52
feel like their existence alone is enough. And that's even without all of the
42:58
negative messaging that men, Yeah, they need something to do. And so
43:01
if you, if you, if no one is giving them anything, and
43:06
then this you know, radical person from whatever group X comes along and says,
43:09
you know where you would be most useful is here, then they will
43:13
probably there's a good chance will join. And I think that there's probably guys
43:19
in the KKK that are there because they are looking for like, oh,
43:22
this is a cause I want to serve, right, just like people that
43:25
are part of Antifa or other radical communist groups or whatever. They're mostly men
43:31
that don't really even understand the cause. They just like the feeling of belonging
43:36
to something. You know, that makes sense, Yeah, it makes total
43:39
sense. Yeah. I got a super chat from Albatross gives us five dollars
43:45
and says happy Labor Day, y'all. Well that's a weird way of saying
43:50
happy birthday, but thank you as it's also Labor Day. But uh yeah,
43:57
so I oh and I'm sorry. Oh I C gives us a dollar
44:02
on Rumble and says Darryl Davis turns enemies into nakama. What a weeb?
44:08
I don't I don't get the reference, but no idea what that means.
44:10
Yeah, I don't know either. It's I think it's an anime thing.
44:14
Sorry, I don't know, but anyway, so I guess, uh,
44:21
I guess, like I don't think that. I mean, I just wanted
44:23
to make sure, but I don't think we really disagree on much. I
44:27
don't think we do, no, like, and I wasn't attacking you.
44:30
I don't. I know you weren't. I know you weren't. But like
44:31
when you know, when I hear I hear a lot like this has actually
44:35
been happening a lot with women on in the men's movement. And I'm not
44:40
including you in this, but I've seen women that have been like, you
44:45
know, they they they come into it because they're interested and they're sympathetic and
44:49
they understand the issues. Maybe they know somebody a man that was done dirty
44:52
by some issue, right, and they get involved and they start talking to
44:57
people and they realize they get exposed to just how angry some men are at
45:02
their situation. And I think that's some recoil, like they go, oh,
45:07
well that's too that's too much for me. Yeah, And so you
45:10
know, we've seen that, and so sometimes when I hear, you know,
45:15
criticisms, I just want to clarify. That's why I kind of went
45:17
in with a little bit of you know, well, let's see what's going
45:20
on here. Did somebody like say something edgy or you know or what,
45:24
because yeah, there is a lot of there is a lot of pain in
45:29
this movement. I mean, I'm not one. I've been fortunate enough not
45:31
to have been necessarily a victim of any of it, but I know people
45:36
who have. I know guys going through hard divorces, lost access to their
45:39
kids, you know, have become self destructive, which is kind of like
45:45
a slow suicide. So yeah, I know that happens, and I get
45:51
that. Like the last thing a man in pain wants to hear is that
45:55
he has to be considerate of somebody else's feelings, right of course. So
46:00
yeah, and that's an interesting process too, which is why I was kind
46:04
of critical of the of the Facebook group for being open to the public while
46:09
also hosting those discussions where like those should really be those those should really be
46:15
conversations that happen somewhere privately, because they need to happen. They need to
46:19
get that out of their system. They need to find a place where people
46:22
are sympathetic to their pain without like advertising men's rights advocacy as red pill rage.
46:31
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that. So so you're you've
46:37
chilled out, you've touched grass, Is there anything else or is that mainly
46:42
the thing that you think has changed? Yeah, I mean I've gotten a
46:47
lot more like nuanced ideas of kind of like the state of you know,
46:52
the gender dynamic and men's issues. And you know, like I've like I
46:59
didn't use to see you know, feminism as as an inherently sort of traditionalist
47:05
movement, and I kind of came to notice that when I started to realize
47:08
that they were saying the same things. And you know that they claimed to
47:13
be against gender roles, but promote this notion that women are like silly and
47:17
helpless and oh, I'm just a girl, you know, and they demand
47:22
chivalry from men when it suits them. And yeah, I think that it's
47:27
basically like both of them both. And I hate to put it this way
47:31
because it sounds like a dichotomy, like a like a binary thing, but
47:36
feminism and the way that we've always done things in the past or traditionalism are
47:40
basically asking the same thing of men, except that traditionalists sometimes they thank you,
47:46
and that's the only real bad Yeah, exactly so. And I get
47:50
frustrated when I talked to talk to people who like they lean towards that traditionalist
47:57
perspective, and you know, they talk about, well, I don't really
47:59
think we can overcome gynocentrism and I don't really think we can, you know,
48:06
reach a world where men's bodies don't need to be sacrificed. And I
48:09
asked them, like, okay, so what's your goal And they're like,
48:12
I just want to be thanked for it. And on one hand, like
48:15
I sympathize with that, and on the other hand, I'm like, yeah,
48:19
you got to reach higher than that, dude, Like we can do.
48:22
But we're humans. We've we've done you know, we've got pocket computers.
48:27
Yeah, we've like we've done so many things as a species, Like
48:30
we can reach a point where we respect and love both, you know,
48:36
sides of the gender coin. Yeah, sure? Do you think we can
48:37
live in a war? I mean in a war in a world is what
48:40
I meant to say. Where there will I mean obviously they will always be
48:45
suffering, right, So I'm trying to think like, yeah, I mean,
48:51
like I think it's some we want to like try to create as much
48:54
justice as possible, and we want to reduce possibility of needless strife and suffering.
49:07
But yeah, I mean I don't know, Like I think there will
49:09
always be war, and there will always be men and maybe some women willing
49:15
to make the sacrifice for that. So it's probably at the very least good
49:20
that we recognize that. And and like men don't need much, you know,
49:25
women are really really good at motivating motivating men. It's actually like what
49:30
men look for. So I don't know if I think that guidocentrism can be
49:37
resisted, and I think that there are logical ways to do so, right,
49:43
Like, you know, take the amber Heard case, the Johnny Depp
49:47
amber Heard case. I think that people have woken up to that because you
49:53
have, yeah, you have this woman and she's doing things that you never
49:59
thought were possible. And then you have this man that, despite being really
50:04
popular with women, you know, he has been sort of portrayed as this
50:08
like this I don't know, just violent guy, and a lot of people
50:15
bought into it. It took us watching the trial unfold and talking, and
50:19
I was surprised. I think that the Johnny Depp trial is a big turning
50:22
point. I've noticed I don't know if you've noticed this, but have you
50:25
noticed that in the mainstream discourse the word missentry is being used. I have,
50:31
I actually have, and I've noticed something else, And this is because
50:36
my sphere is specifically in like the abuse discourse is where I tend to hang
50:40
out. I've noticed that kind of since like the Red Pill documentary era,
50:49
I've seen an uptick in people who are like more willing to say like abusers
50:55
rather than men, or people who are more likely to say like victims are
51:00
survivors rather than women, and making knowledge that this is not necessarily a gendered
51:05
phenomenon at all. So the language is changing, it is. It is
51:08
so like I see that as like a tremendous amount of progress, Like I
51:12
mean, the policy needs to change, yeah, needs to change dramatically,
51:16
but I think you know, step one is making people aware of the problem.
51:21
Absolutely, Yeah, that's then that's what we do here, and I
51:23
do think it's changing. What do you think about We're almost at the hour,
51:28
but I will ask you another question, what do you think about the
51:32
people that are kind of I wouldn't say in the doing the same work,
51:36
but they're kind of traveling in the same circles that are talking about men and
51:40
women either from a you know, I know that you spe specialized in the
51:45
abuse and sexual assault areas, but I guess what I'm seeing that's really popular
51:52
now is like relationships, dating, marriage, that kind of thing. So
51:59
people like the you know, Fresh and Fits or Pearl have you have you
52:05
heard about these people? Do you know? Yeah? So, I mean
52:08
it's going to depend on the advice, right, Like I don't, like
52:13
I'm always happy for there to be like discourse on how to have a healthy
52:16
relationship. I think a lot of the stuff that's kind of marketed as manosphere
52:21
stuff in that realm is like a whole bunch of Victorian erasexual morality with like
52:29
like a lot of demands on both women and men that are very like sort
52:35
of regimented, and you know, like I don't I don't particularly care for
52:37
Like I think Pearl's message is more about abstinence than it is about anything else.
52:44
Like looking at her content where I'm like, yeah, you talk about
52:46
men's issues occasionally, you talk about double standards, which is completely legitimate.
52:52
But I do see a lot of the relationship complaints in the manosphere as being
52:58
like somebody dumped me, is this Amends issue? Or somebody's having sex is
53:02
this Amends issue? And I'm like, no, it's not. I mean,
53:06
it's a personal issue. If it's a problem, then resolve it interpersonally.
53:09
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I get it. I mean,
53:13
it's not how I would approach these conversations or even what I'm interested in.
53:17
My primary focus is like, look, I don't care how you arrange your
53:22
relationships, but I want it to be something that men and women feel comfortable
53:28
with at the end of the day. And I think, you know,
53:30
whatever worked best, because like our well, our population is collapsing. So
53:37
I'm a little worried about that. You know, we're not having enough kids
53:40
and it's not in like two generations. I think we're gonna be in a
53:44
lot of trouble. But or the Amish will just take over, I don't
53:47
know, because they're having like ten or twenty kids. You know, the
53:51
religious groups with their b jillion children. Yeah, right, really be worried
53:57
about the jationalists the brush up, brush up on my aramaic or something.
54:01
But last thing I guess is that what are you working? Are you working
54:07
on anything right now? If somebody's interested in following what you do, where
54:13
would they go for that? I mean, I've got that egalitarian Jackalope blog.
54:20
I put a link in the description for that. Okay, cool,
54:22
and that's I mean, honestly, most of what I do is just talk
54:24
to people. I've had little projects off and on. You know, they
54:28
come and they go, like I, I navigate toward people and work on
54:32
something and then we do it or we don't do it, and then I
54:36
move on. Yeah, a lot of what I do is like just kind
54:39
of local stuff. Like at one point a buddy of mine and I like
54:45
walked all the way up and down our like main street in our city and
54:47
just like put domestic violence resources and all the men's bathrooms and you know,
54:52
the women's too, but like the men's are the ones that need them because
54:54
they don't get them. Yeah, you know, so that's a lot of
54:58
a lot of my projects are like that. That's cool, all right,
55:00
But yeah, I mean people are welcome to hit me up if they want
55:04
to work with me on something. I'm always looking for cool stuff to do.
55:07
Nice all right. So I did get another super chow from Zerranks for
55:15
five, Thank you very much. That's really nice. Thank you. And
55:17
he says I've been saying for years that gnocentrism has to be tempered. L
55:24
any one I think he means to say, come across wants to get rid
55:29
of rid of it. I don't see how we can recognize women as the
55:32
bottleneck to human proliferation. That's why we protect women. I think tempering it
55:37
will work if we keep it in mind. How good a society is can
55:42
be based on how which women are treated and what it accepts from said women,
55:45
especially with types like fresh and fit and Tate talking about how they'll give
55:47
their daughters everything and make their sons work hard. I think that idea will
55:52
put some form of boundaries around women since we blew them out with birth control
55:57
and voting rights without responsibilities to the state like men. And then he gives
56:01
another five dollars and says, happy birthday, Ryan, thank you very much.
56:06
That's really nice. Thank you. That's the wrong thank you. I'm
56:07
into this. Thank you come again, all right? So, yeah,
56:12
I don't know if you wanted to say anything to that. Yeah, I
56:15
mean rights and responsibilities definitely need to come together. I mean, I would
56:20
love like the voting thing, I think is a really interesting conversation. Like
56:23
I would have much rather just men not to have been drafted. You know,
56:30
if you're in a democracy, like voting is the responsibility, right,
56:34
like you need to be you need to be informed, You need to like
56:37
think carefully and have skin in the game. Yeah. Yeah, your skin
56:40
in the game is that you live there. Yeah, you know, I
56:44
don't think that we need to be drafted in order to have skin in the
56:46
game. But I do think that whatever whatever responsibility is, the reciprocal end
56:52
of that voting right needs to be universal, not just men, not just
56:57
women, It needs to be everybody. Yeah, there has to be like
57:00
a I think the way it's a range right now is is just bad for
57:04
everybody. And yeah, Mark Angelucci, Rest is Peace, Rest in Peace
57:08
was fighting to change that. But I think someone else is going to have
57:13
to pick up the torch, and I hope they do. I was really
57:15
excited about the progress he was making. Yeah. Yeah, it's a real
57:19
shame that that happened. All right, So anyway, we're gonna go into
57:22
the patron only show guy. So if you want to join us, you
57:25
have to become a Badger yourself by going to feed the Badger dot com setting
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up a monthly subscription five bucks a month. We'll get you into our discord,
57:31
which is where our community is. And there are a lot of lovely
57:36
people here that love to talk about these things. And yeah, it's just
57:40
a really good time there's lots of extra content, there's lots of activities,
57:44
there's like people have workshops and all kinds of cool stuff. For men,
57:49
it's a good resource, but for women too. We have women in there,
57:51
definitely. And and please though, go to feed the Badger dot com
57:57
and if you give a higher levels, you have more access. Right now,
58:00
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58:02
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call itself. So let's feedbeed dot com to start a monthly subscription. So
58:12
I want to thank Elizabeth for coming on. It's nice meeting you in person.
58:15
Fine, well sort of in person virtually. I've only like written your
58:20
posts sit with the little profile picture, so I've never spoken to you,
58:23
you know, in person. So thank you so much for coming on.
58:28
I really appreciate your perspective. And I want to thank you guys for joining
58:31
us on the show. If you guys liked this video, please smash like
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58:44
Thank you so much for coming on today's episode of the fire Side Chat,
58:46
and we would talk to you all in the next video.